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Open mike 09/06/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 9th, 2022 - 208 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

208 comments on “Open mike 09/06/2022 ”

  1. Pataua4life 1

    Gutten Tag from Austria.

    No masks, no mandates' life is normal in Europe. Weather is warm.

    Things are cheap as compared to NZ.

    [No follow-up response received to Mod notes; take the 2 weeks off and enjoy your trip – Incognito]

  2. pat 2

    Coming to a town near you.

    "For the next four months, a doctor will be available just three days a week at the medical centre, instead of five, and many of those consultations will be by video, not in person."

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/cuts-to-gp-service-alarm-west-coast-town

    • Ad 2.1

      The NZ growth in video doctor consults is massive. Do it from your bed!

    • weka 2.2

      People will still be able to make appointments to see Reefton’s rural nurse specialist and practice nurse, including on weekends and holidays, and they will be available on-call for emergencies.

      I would have thought teleconsults could be done from Chch too, so it's not entirely clear what is happening here.

    • weka 2.3

      Best way I can think of to get a GP to live in that area would be to gift them some land with a decent house on it.

      • alwyn 2.3.1

        The problem is that if you have "a" GP they never get time off. They are on call 24 hours of every day and holidays become almost impossible to arrange. It would need more than providing a house to overcome that problem.

        At least a doctor who works in a big city Medical Centre can take holidays.

        • aj 2.3.1.1

          Reported my + covid result yesterday afternoon. My GP called me on my mobile last night to ensure I was ok, stocked up with medication and supplies, and to ensure I knew the signs of significant problems. Offered a loan of a pulse oximeter, they have 15 for loaning out, but my daughter had bought me one (and a body temp sensor) about 6 months back.

          I don't think you'd get better service from a GP than that.

        • weka 2.3.1.2

          Do you know what a locum is?

          • alwyn 2.3.1.2.1

            Well yes, I do know what a locum is.

            I don't understand your question though in terms of your original comment. When you said "a GP to live in that area would be to gift them some land with a decent house on it." I assumed you meant a permanent resident, not a locum. Were you suggesting a house for a locum would be an incentive?

            If, on the other hand, you were suggesting that the permanent doctor could get a locum so they could take a holiday I don't see how they could do it. If the DHB can't find locums how is an individual doctor going to do any better?

            • weka 2.3.1.2.1.1

              The DHB can find locums, just not enough in the current system. Who do you think does the three days a week currently? Having a permanent GP would change things a lot, then bring in locums as the GP needs to go on holiday, have breaks etc. It's not an all or nothing.

              From the link,

              The Reefton clinic serves a population of about 1000 people and is staffed by GP locums supplied by the DHB, who often stay locally. Some have worked in the town for several months at a time.

      • Molly 2.3.2

        Perhaps two GPs – one full-time and one who wants to reduce workload and willing to work part-time and be on call.

        • Visubversa 2.3.2.1

          My late father did a locum for a rural GP in the mid 1950's. He was advised that many of the locals had not yet grasped the principles of a cash economy. He got the GMS benefit for everyone he saw, but the rest was very much "in kind". Fortunately my mother was raised on a farm and her father was a butcher so being confronted with large lumps of recently demised animal or bird (often complete with shotgun pellets) did not worry her. She could also pluck and dress a chicken. We were particularly happy if someone had been over to the coast and we got fresh or smoked fish or crayfish. When there was not produce it was "mow your lawn Doc?" or "clean your car Doc?". We certainly ate well and his tax return was very good that year,

        • weka 2.3.2.2

          Might work for a couple who are both GPs? But assuming they have accommodation for locums, I was thinking a freehold house would be the kind of incentive for someone to make the move permanently.

    • pat 2.4

      "Chair Lisa Neil says the absence of a GP will load more work on to the minimal nursing staff at the medical centre.

      “We have a vulnerable elderly community here and the nurses are already under pressure dealing with Covid in the community.”

      Cutting services at a time when Reefton people are in the thick of the epidemic and under stress from spiralling living costs is a bad idea, Neil says.

      “It’s a real blow. People are reluctant to front up [with depression] as it is, and if you’re dealing with an intimate problem, elderly people especially won’t be comfortable talking to a TV screen and having an extra person in there with them as well.”

      https://www.newsroom.co.nz/cuts-to-gp-service-alarm-west-coast-town

      Who needs a face to face with a GP anyway…..hopefully nobody.

  3. Joe90 3

    Whatever it is, they're against it!

    The co-founders of Groundswell admit they have not read the three waters legislation they are so vehemently against.

    […]

    Groundswell co-founders Laurie Paterson and Bryce McKenzie also said they haven't read the proposed legislation. Paterson says, nonetheless, they're opposed to what's on the table.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018845171/groundswell-co-founders-haven-t-read-bill-they-re-vehemently-against

    • Incognito 3.1

      Yup, same attitude and response from ‘critics’ of Three Waters roaming free here on TS. They refuse to engage with the proposals, they choose to close off their minds, and they self-justify this by pointing at all sorts of things being thrown around in the MSM and by the opposition parties, i.e. pointing at ‘hidden agendas’, alleged ‘secrecy’ and ‘dishonesty’, ‘stealth’, et cetera. They will never have to find out how good or bad the reforms might be (very bad, of course) and they simply stick their fingers in their ears. But at the end of the day it is always the same as from the outset: prejudice, pure & perfect prejudice. However, never say this to those people because they’ll flip their lid in a fit of incongruence rage.

      • Sanctuary 3.1.1

        Co-governance is a thorny one. Take the Canterbury Regional Council (Ngāi Tahu Representation Bill) currently going through parliament. To my mind Ngāi Tahu getting to appoint two representatives to an elected board is undemocratic.

        But of course, the same people vigorously race baiting over this co-governance arrangement were more than happy in 2010 when National dumped the elected councillors and replaced them with commissioners to enable the pillaging and theft of Canterbury's water resources on behalf of corporate dairy interests.

        So the opposition to Ngāi Tahu getting two representatives isn't so much a principled defense of democracy as being aggrieved the wrong people are getting a nice salary for life.

        Personally, I strongly doubt the Ngāi Tahu representatives will prove to be any better guardians of the waters of Canterbury than some entitled cocky whose family arrived on the Charlotte Jane in 1850. The squabble is really over which bunch of entitled twots get to make money out of the commons that is water. To that extent, I oppose co-governance – to my mind, greed is colour and race blind and the only way to really keep an eye on these wannabe rentiers for life and keep them in check is full participatory democracy.

        • weka 3.1.1.1

          Labour just sacked the democratically elected DHBs /shrug.

          • Craig H 3.1.1.1.1

            Bit of a difference between an entity being disestablished and the board being sacked while the entity continues operating.

            • weka 3.1.1.1.1.1

              sacking was a reference to when National sacked the elected members of the Area Health Boards in the early 90s.

        • Grumpy 3.1.1.2

          Ngai Tahu are one of (if not) the biggest owners of dairy farms in Canterbury. If any other sector were given 2 seats on ECAN it would be called a Conflict of Interest.

        • Incognito 3.1.1.3

          If you’re referring to royalties, I’ve seen arguments these could have advantages over the non-pricing structure currently in place for drinking water. I fail to see, at present, that this is a get-rich-quick scheme for anybody, but greed is not in my nature.

      • RedLogix 3.1.2

        The only consistent prejudice I see on display here is the one that says anything to do with white people is to be discounted, deplored and derided at every opportunity.

        According to Witi Ihimaera it is a Maori Universe after all.

      • aj 3.1.3

        Two things frighten them. Anything that eats into profit, and anything that gives Maori any say in the environment.

    • Graeme 3.2

      It’s amusing that a farmer from Gore has taken a position opposing the 3 Waters reforms.

      Gore has a combined sewage / stormwater system. A throwback from the 19th century and rather expensive to fix. It’s also got a shrinking ratepayer (dying) ratepayer base. Without the socialisation of costs that 3 Waters will bring Gore will probably cease to exist as the rates required will be unsustainable.

      • Ad 3.2.1

        A combined sewer-stormwater system is a modern septic outrage.

        WTF is that Council doing?

        Auckland Council's Stormwater team and Watercare only finished separating out flows from the whole of the Ponsonby-Herne Bay-Freemans Bay-Wynyard Quarter catchment last year. Including a 3.3metre diameter stormwater line 600 metres long.

        They still have 2 years to go doing the Central Interceptor project that separates most of the previously joined system. That's over $1b of work in that one alone.

        • Graeme 3.2.1.1

          WTF is that Council doing?

          Well they’ve got a seriously good Art Gallery… But they are thinking about it and I think they will start in a few years, it’ll probably take 20 years at what they can afford. If there’s a poster child for 3 Water it’s Gore Anywhere else would have been amalgamated three reforms ago

          But as you’ve pointed out Auckland isn’t too flash in this regard, and at a much larger and more public scale. This gets hard to fix and most TAs don’t have Aucklands scale and resources

      • joe90 3.2.2

        After the 1990's nact inflicted disasters that beset the city Whanganui was unable to afford a ten year waste water separation scheme. But we did.

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/whanganui-chronicle/news/stormwater-separation-129-houses-from-completion/UXGZEVBHTCGMXEFBCNAGVYD6M4/?c_id=1503426&objectid=11011217

      • weka 3.2.3

        apart from the financial forecast, what problems does Gore have with its drinking water, greywater and sewerage?

        • Graeme 3.2.3.1

          In much / most of Gore and Mataura there is only one pipe for sewage and stormwater. When it rains the lot goes into the shit ponds which discharge into the river. Hasn’t been ideal practice since about 1900.

    • Ad 3.3

      My reckons is there is no further polling damage 3-Waters can do to the government. The legislation will be implemented without fuss. But it will take over a decade to notice much difference.

      The really big difference is the state fresh water regulator enforcing the National Fresh Water Drinking Standards, upon water systems from lazy shitty little farmer-owned councils who didn't give a damn for decades.

      • Sanctuary 3.3.1

        My only reservations about three waters is water governance is being consolidated into a nice ripe target for privatisation by a future National government (which will inevitably involve a grubby little cronyist deal with corporate Iwi that'll entrench rentier lifestyles for all those lucky enough to be at the table when the divvy up is done) and a real sadness that it signals a complete and utter failure of local democracy.

        I would have preferred the government had spent a few hundred million on a local democracy revival project before declaring them all incompetent.

      • gypsy 3.3.2

        The fresh water regulator is a positive step.

        "My reckons is there is no further polling damage 3-Waters can do to the government."

        I respectfully disagree. There are tens of thousands of people invested in privately owned rural schemes (plus the people in the hundred or so rural council owned schemes) who will suddenly find the schemes they have paid for they no longer control. There is the ongoing and deep set resentment across local government towards central government at the perceived loss of control over ratepayers assets. and at the way the process has been undertaken. And then there's the commitment of both National and Act to overturn the entire structure.

        "But it will take over a decade to notice much difference."

        Certainly there will be no benefit before the next election, and that is a huge problem, because over the next year the media will be full of reports of the cost of establishing the entities. This is a big play by Labour, and it will be interesting to see how the politics plays out.

        • Ad 3.3.2.1

          I'm sure there are indeed several thousand on private water systems, but seriously Labour never had them to start with.

          There will certainly be structural setup stories, but the river pollution stories are going to get bigger and bigger.

          • gypsy 3.3.2.1.1

            "I'm sure there are indeed several thousand on private water systems, but seriously Labour never had them to start with."

            I have a friend who lives on a lifestyle block near Masterton. He's one of the many rural people who is part of a private scheme, and he voted for Labour in Wairarapa in 2020, along with significant others that saw the seat go red. He's one of many that will vote blue in 2023 due significantly because of 3Waters. That will play out across provincial NZ, IMHO.

            • KJT 3.3.2.1.1.1

              When I was in a private developers scheme, I heaved a sigh of relief when the local council took over that ongoing liability, even though it cost a considerable sum at the time, to get the scheme connected to the public one.

              Many of the smaller council's in particular, should be relieved that the costs will now be shared over a much wider area.

              • pat

                Would you be as equally relieved if the water authority determined your scheme was no longer viable?

                • KJT

                  They did, down the track, and rebuilt it into a new reticulation and treatment scheme.

                  • pat

                    and reduced your rates 80% at the same time?

                    • KJT

                      No. Rates over the whole town went up a little to pay off the new scheme.

                      Much cheaper than we would have had to pay in annual levies for the private scheme,which only served about a hundred odd houses.

                      Economies of scale. Eh?

                    • pat

                      Or cross subsidy.

                      Economies of scale set against increased bureaucracy, larger and disparate areas of activity, promised improvement of both delivery and standard and thousands more employed.

                      Something dosnt add up.

                    • KJT

                      Simply that the cost and efficiency of the water and waste water plants per user, improved, when going from about a hundred houses, in the private scheme, to being shared amongst over 8000.

                    • pat

                      "No. Rates over the whole town went up a little to pay off the new scheme."

                    • KJT

                      Originally there was no water or sewage plant, except for the development.

                      Which of course was paid for by buyers, including myself, in the subdivision.

                      We would have had to pay all the ongoing costs ourselves of the rather expensive to run water and wastewater scheme split amongst a hundred households.
                      Noting that unit costs drop as plant gets bigger.

                      The rest of the town was on tank and septic tank.

                      Later the rest of the town was reticulated to the extended private scheme. Both water and wastewater supply.

                      Further down the track this was inadequate, as the town grew, and a new scheme was built. Every section paid a levy for the new scheme and ongoing running costs became part of rates.

                      Much cheaper per household than the original scheme. And saving a nice bit of coast from leaking septic tanks.

                    • pat

                      You are using terms you apparently dont understand….yes your (future) personal expense was reduced because it was met by a larger group whos future expense was increased…this is contrary to both what is promised by 3 Waters and economy of scale.

                    • KJT

                      No. You fail to understand.

                      Their future expense went down.

                      No more maintaining septic tanks.

                      As did mine.

                      Economies of scale.

                    • pat

                      Again

                      "No. Rates over the whole town went up a little to pay off the new scheme."

                    • KJT

                      Rates which are less than the ongoing costs per household, if the scheme wasn't done.

                      Originally non reticulated households, also benifited from the initial work and plant built and paid for by the houses in the private scheme, so if there was any cross subsidy, it was from those of us who paid for the private scheme at the start.

                      Everyone gained from the new scheme. At reduced ongoing cost per household.

                    • Molly

                      @pat, we had a similar situation in our rural community.

                      However, in this case the local government solution was to require the developer to provide a considerably bigger upgrade for wastewater treatment than his resource consent number of properties warranted.

                      Once in place, other rural land was rezoned, and the council charged those developments to connect to the now upgraded system.

                      Other rural land in the area with Grade I soil, has followed with residential zoning, partly justified by the access to the waste water system which retains excess capacity.

                      A particularly pernicious way of rezoning rural land. In this case there are other factors that make this rezoning not as bad a full greenfields development but it does indicate the lack of transparency.

                    • pat

                      @ Molly.

                      I have no idea what is grade 1 soil but guess it is productive(?)

                      However designated land use is imo likely the only effective way of addressing the multitude of issues we face though it would need to be considered in a holistic manner…and it would be deeply unpopular.

                      When it comes to water infrastructure the problems and solutions remain the same regardless of governance form, management style or political persuasion.

                    • Molly

                      @pat. Yes, Class I soils are productive. There are/were issues with the soil classifications maps that could be up to 5km out in some places. That might have been resolved.

                      However, the rural land here was not only zoned Class I, it was historically and currently used for food production.

                      The alternate reasons why this development is not as bad as it could be. There is a geological (topographical) limit to residential expansion, where the sprawl is contained. The community has a long history – pre treaty, and so is well serviced in terms of services and recreational community assets that have built up over time. There is remnants of a train station, with a working rail line. If passenger trains were reinstated to this line, residents would have a viable alternative to car travel.

                      In my opinion, this is a significantly different situation to other rural developments that have been permitted without connection to existing communities or public transport links.

                    • pat

                      @Molly

                      Many rural communities have historically survived and thrived without the 'benefit' of the latest infrastructure, however the environment (in both senses) has changed….and not for the better.

                      As one commenter noted a few days ago our population is widely dispersed and many of our communities small and distant from large scale infrastructure removing the option of consolidation….all of these will still require access to potable water, and to meet the standards for waste….and no one has yet addressed the question of contamination of water supplies be it nitrates, PFOS or whatever other contamination we discover that is both extremely difficult and expensive to remove and is historical.

              • gypsy

                These schemes have ben paid for by private citzens, who are quite happy to control their system, and not at all happy having it stolen from them.

        • Incognito 3.3.2.2

          Private schemes are outside the Three Waters reforms.

          • gypsy 3.3.2.2.1

            That's not what Keiran McAnulty told a meeting in the Wairarapa.

            It's also not what people are being told in areas such as Queenstown.

            I suspect there is some confusion.

            • pat 3.3.2.2.1.1

              Much has yet to be determined…there are areas where the new entities will have an impact on private schemes and there is also concurrent reform with Taumata Arowai

            • Incognito 3.3.2.2.1.2

              Perhaps you could dig into it and clear it up for us and your friend in Masterton?

              • gypsy

                Perhaps the government should have thought all this through before effectively stealing assets paid for by ratepayers and private citizens.

                • Incognito

                  And again, you have no game surprise

                  If I had more time to spend on this I would. In the meantime, confusion reigns, which suits you, doesn’t it?

                  • gypsy

                    confusion reigns

                    Gee I wouldn’t go that far. We know enough to determine the scheme is inferior to alternatives.

                    But look I’ll be generous and save you some time. When you said “Private schemes are outside the Three Waters reforms” you obviously weren’t aware of this:

                    Acquisition and Vesting of Private 3-waters Schemes Policy

                    2.2.1 PRIVATE/SMALL DRINKING WATER SCHEME OPERATORS CAN EXPECT TO SEE:

                    · Increased and immediate investment requirement in backflow prevention.

                    · Increased monitoring of water schemes and treatment to meet DWSNZ.

                    · Requirement to develop and administer a drinking water safety plan and a source water risk management plan (catchment).

                    · Increased costs of source water quality monitoring and testing.

                    · Increased personal liability to directors with heavy fines for incidences, up to and including imprisonment.

                    2.2.2 PRIVATE/SMALL WASTEWATER AND STORMWATER SCHEME OPERATORS CAN EXPECT NEW LAWS EMPOWERING TAUMATA AROWAI TO:

                    · Compile information about wastewater and stormwater networks in a national public database:

                    · Set environmental performance measures, which wastewater and stormwater operators will have to report against annually:

                    · Publish an annual report on the environmental performance of wastewater and stormwater networks and their compliance with applicable regulatory requirements (such as resource consents): · Identify and promote national good practice for the design and management of wastewater and stormwater networks.

                    https://www.qldc.govt.nz/media/hv4bxvy3/acquisition-and-vesting-of-private-3-waters-scheme-policy-draft-rev-1-16-12-2021.pdf

                    • weka

                      I don't know how you managed to make the html in that comment so complicated, but I've stripped it out and made it more readable. It's good practice to put links in the clear especially if they are to PDFs. People need to see what they are clicking on.

                    • Incognito

                      I don’t have time to rebut this properly. Unfortunately, and unsurprisingly, you have not clarified anything, not cleared up the confusion but only added to it.

                      Clearly, you have an anti-Three Waters Reforms agenda. You quote some stuff to prove something but it isn’t clear what that is except to bolster your agenda of negativity.

                      Just briefly, from your linked PDF:

                      • 3-waters Reform – Governance, administration and operation of Council 3-waters networks are likely to be transferred to new regional entities from 1 July 2024 (subject to legislation).

                      Until the full enactment of 3-waters reforms underway, Council is the operational and controlling authority responsible for the supply, treatment, reticulation/conveyance and discharge of public 3-waters services (excluding private networks) within the District. [my italics]

                      Your PDF also states:

                      Check the Department of Internal Affairs Three Water Review1 for updates.

                      Which means that you can go there and find out that private schemes are outside the Three Waters reform, as I correctly stated before. Unless you can find more recent info that contradicts this, e.g. because Government has done a U-turn.

                  • Gypsy

                    So you are given a list of requirements proposed for private schemes and you double down! Your comment about private schemes being “outside the Three Waters reforms” was incorrect.

                    On the wider issue of 3Waters, I suggest you read the article by Sandra Coney in the Herald about the Waitakete Ranges.

                    [Link required. Don’t expect others to do the donkey work for you. And you have to explain why and how the NZH article is relevant to the discussion thread about Three Waters Reform and private schemes, not just point to it and say ‘read it’ – Incognito]

                    • Incognito

                      I suggest that when you make a suggestion for somebody to read something you include a link and spell names correctly. And if it is in the NZH then it better be not behind the pay-wall or it could be conceived as a troll comment by you – the onus is on you to avoid wasting other people’s time and not put them on wild goose chases through Google, the internet, and then find a brick wall and a hard stop when the article is finally found. I hope for your sake that this is not the case because you will receive a Mod note soon.

                      Since you seem be adamant on heaping confusion on the matter at hand rather than helping to clarify things I’ve made some time to do some digging.

                      Can you handle a one-page Summary Fact Sheet on Three Waters Reform – Rural water supplies? Sure you can; you handled the 18-page QLDC policy no sweat.

                      Under the reforms, only council-owned assets necessary for the delivery of drinking water, wastewater or stormwater services will be transferred to the new water service delivery entities. Privately owned supplies or people who supply their own water for their house will not be impacted.

                      There are a range of existing service delivery arrangements between councils and community/rural schemes. These will be worked through with all parties during the transition period. This will ensure services continue with appropriate agreements in place with the new entities – for example, private community operated services that require technical assistance.

                      And

                      Only council-owned assets necessary for the delivery of three waters services will be transferred to the new entities. Privately owned schemes and supplies will not be transferred.

                      And

                      The recently passed Water Services Act will require all drinking water suppliers, other than domestic self-suppliers, to provide safe drinking water and meet drinking water standards. This is to ensure all communities receive safe drinking water, no matter where they live or who supplies this service.

                      Private drinking water suppliers currently registered under the Health Act will have a year to comply under the Water Services Bill – this includes all public supplies and some large networked rural supplies. Suppliers that are not currently registered under the Health Act will have four years to register with Taumata Arowai (the new water regulator); and seven years to comply.

                      https://www.dia.govt.nz/diawebsite.nsf/Files/three-waters-reform-programme-2021/$file/rural-water-supplies-fact-sheet-three-waters-reform-programme.pdf

                    • Incognito

                      Mod note

                    • gypsy

                      The link is in the original post. But you know that.

                      https://www.qldc.govt.nz/media/hv4bxvy3/acquisition-and-vesting-of-private-3-waters-scheme-policy-draft-rev-1-16-12-2021.pdf

                      The NZH article is relevant to the wider discussion about 3Waters and it’s merits. It’s worth purchasing a copy for.

                      [So, still no link to the NZH article and still no explanation why and how it is relevant to the discussion here. And now you suggest I and other readers here should pay and purchase a copy!? Because it’s worth it, in your opinion, without explaining why and how!?

                      The link I requested was to the NZH article. But you know that.

                      However, you provided the same link to the QLDC policy draft again, for the third time, after extensively and selectively quoting irrelevant stuff. I referred to it in my reply @ 11 June 2022 at 2:15 pm and I’ve quoted from it myself. But you know that.

                      It is unclear and ambiguous to refer to the “original post” without being more specific about which exact comment you mean. When I refer to the OP I refer to the blog/article/piece written by the Author, not to the beginning of a discussion thread or sub-thread. In any case, it is not clear what you’re referring to and this is OM!?

                      So, you’re a disingenuous troll here, baiting, diverting, obfuscating and you’re wasting Moderator time. Take a week off – Incognito]

                    • Incognito []

                      Mod note

                  • gypsy

                    "Can you handle a one-page Summary Fact Sheet on Three Waters Reform – Rural water supplies? "

                    And then you go on to provide a link about transfer of ownership. Your claim was "Private schemes are outside the Three Waters reforms." and yet your own reference states:

                    "Private drinking water suppliers currently registered under the Health Act will have a year to comply under the Water Services Bill – this includes all public supplies and some large networked rural supplies."

                    If the scheme has to comply with any new regulations under 3Waters, it is simply false to suggest the scheme is ‘outside’ of the reforms.

                    • gypsy

                      And in anticipation that you will try to claim your comment was about 'ownership', the comment you were replying to when you made your claim, and my subsequent comments, have referred to 'control' not 'ownership'.

                    • Incognito

                      Nope, neither control nor ownership are transferred out of and away from private schemes. You’re confusing compliance with the new regulations and regulatory framework with loss of control, which is bot inaccurate and incorrect and amounts to fearmongering. The same fearmongering and propaganda as we might expect from some rural quarters with hysterical outburst and frankly ridiculous claims such as "They're stealing our water!", FFS. https://www.ruralnewsgroup.co.nz/rural-news/rural-general-news/they-re-stealing-our-water

                      To have something stolen from you, you have to own it in the first place. Some rural folk seem to think that they own the commons and because they have been free to use it and waste it they own it, for all intents & purposes. Now, who are the real thieves here?

                      By all accounts you’re quite intelligent, yet you don’t do anything to help clearing up confusion. Rather, you antagonise and obfuscate. The most obvious conclusion is that you have a deliberate agenda in stalling Three Waters Reform as much as possible and ideally make it fail.

                      Three Waters Reform boiled down

                      – a quick overview

                      Provided by the Department of Internal Affairs

                      Updated June 2022

                      https://www.dia.govt.nz/diawebsite.nsf/Files/Three-waters-reform-programme-2022/$file/Three-Waters-Reform-boiled-down-May-2022.pdf

                      The Three Waters Reforms are complex. This has meant there is some confusion about the reform proposals. The following slides discuss some common misconceptions or myths about the three waters service delivery reforms.

                      Question: Will the Three Waters Reforms take private water supplies / take back water allocations

                      Answer: No. The Three Waters Reforms aim to reform council-owned services only. This discussion is not about taking over operation of privately-owned supplies. However, the Government is working with a Rural Supplies Technical Working Group to understand how the proposed entities may support private supplies who currently receive assistance from councils.

                      The proposed entities will continue to operate within the resource management system – the Three Waters Reforms will not alter resource consents, allocations, or address ownership of freshwater. This is subject to work of the Ministry for the Environment.

                      I cannot make it any clearer for you or for anybody else. To draw conclusions that are in direct contradiction with the information provided is a sure sign of being disingenuous and not commenting & debating here in good faith. This is the very strong impression you create time after time.

    • Sanctuary 3.4

      There is a full on white panic going on in certain parts of the country right now, assiduously dog whistled by an army of GOP adjacent racists and/or culture warriors like Laurie Paterson and in the MSM by an army of right wing opinionistas.

      That this is a race based backlash can be discerned from the targets – co-governance, smearing Mahuta and attacking Poto Williams, racist fear mongering over three waters, the vigorously pumped conspiracy theories from He Puapua to white paranoia about rigging elections (see National MP David Bennett) to far out conspiracy theories like the great replacement theory which is increasingly being mainstreamed on the NZ right and popping up in comments sections of the likes of the NZ Herald.

      • joe90 3.4.1

        But it's not about race, it's about privatisation….

        The council-iwi working group, on which Smith was a member, had recommended an entrenched clause to stop the water assets' privatisation. The sale or transfer of even a single pipe would require the agreement of at least 75 percent of all MPs.

        […]

        Infrastructure Minister Grant Robertson called on opposition parties to "step up" if they believed in public ownership. "We've heard certainly from the National Party that they've been throughout this process concerned about the loss of ownership in communities," he said. "Now they can step up and say 'we will agree that these assets won't be sold'."

        But it's understood the National Party did not agree to support the entrenched clause, protecting against privatisation – it is ironic for Jason Smith that it is the party he has just joined that has effectively blocked the requirement for a super-majority.

        https://www.newsroom.co.nz/three-waters-entrenchment

      • Anne 3.4.2

        Got it in one Sanctuary. And its percolating through centrist communities too. If you confront them – as I have with a few family members – they descend into fits of outrage because it's not racism. Oh yeah.angry

        I have been following stories on the trip to England by Prince Harry and Meghan Markle. There it is again. Racism in all its glory. Hatred and vitriol abounded in subtle and less subtle guises. They are dammed if they do and damned if they don't. I can't even begin to imagine the uproar if it had been their little boy, Archie who played up on the balcony and elsewhere.

        It will be understandable if they never return to racist Britain.

        • Belladonna 3.4.2.1

          It will be understandable if they never return to racist Britain.

          I'm sure Britain will be ecstatic.
          Meanwhile they're living in considerably-more-racist USA.

          Really, you care what the H&M roadshow says or does? Talk about the pinnacle of irrelevance. At least the R Family (privileged though they may be) actually work [truly, you couldn't pay me to do their jobs, be in that goldfish bowl, and live a life in the public eye]

          I had sympathy for H&M when they wanted to ditch it all; but the sympathy waned rapidly when it was apparent that they actually wanted to live like A-list celebrities, and were perfectly prepared to sacrifice their precious privacy at the altar of their new god, Netflix.

          • Anne 3.4.2.1.1

            Actually I was picking up on Sanctuary @3.4 and talking about racism Belladonna. The example I gave is just the latest.

            Don't care what you may think I care or don't care about, or for that matter what you may care or not care about. Don't do Netflix and don't follow the pair's antics in the US so don't know what you're talking about. And just so as you get the message I don't care either. 😈

            • Belladonna 3.4.2.1.1.1

              Then perhaps you should use an example where you do care, and have bothered to do a minimal level of research.

              • Anne

                I care about racism and other forms of destructive prejudice. I don't care about the circumstance or past mistakes of the individual/individuals who happen to be the targets.

                A less judgemental approach to commenters based on… zero knowledge of their backgrounds or the extent of their "research" endeavours into matters that happen to be of interest to them would be helpful. You might find the favour being returned.

                • Belladonna

                  I you make a statement that

                  Don't care what you may think I care or don't care about, or for that matter what you may care or not care about. Don't do Netflix and don't follow the pair's antics in the US so don't know what you're talking about. And just so as you get the message I don't care either.

                  It's pretty obvious that you've done little or no research.

                  And I suggest a mirror, when you're talking about "less judgemental approach"

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 3.4.3

        "Nobody owns the water, " former broadcaster Peter Williams told an audience in Gore yesterday.

        About 400 people turned up to the meeting hosted by Groundswell New Zealand to protest against the Three Waters reforms.

        It was the third meeting of four hosted by the group in Otago and Southland.

        A Taxpayers Union board member, Mr Williams was the keynote speaker at the meeting.

        https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/southland/hundreds-3-waters-reforms-protest-meeting

        A LOT of venting about bullies….and Maaries and WHO should own the Water. Well, them Farmers of course ! (They already do……)

    • Populuxe1 3.5

      Apart from the people who drafted it, I doubt even the minister has read the whole thing. It would be more to the point to ask if they'd read the summary of the Bill and the discussion document.

  4. Ross 4

    Bad news for the Government.

    the National Party is still perceived by New Zealanders as most capable of managing 4 of the top-5 issues, a significant shift compared to June 2021, when Labour was seen as most capable of managing 19 of the 20 issues.

    The top five issues are:

    1. Inflation/cost of living.

    2. Housing/price of housing.

    3. Healthcare/hospitals.

    4. Petrol prices/fuel.

    5. Crime/law and order.

    National should be delighted with the attention Labour is giving 3 Waters.

    https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/ct/news/documents/2022-06/17th%20Ipsos%20New%20Zealand%20Issues%20Monitor%20-%207%20June%202022%20%28report%29.pdf

    • Anne 4.1

      And when have the top five issues ever been anything else other than the ones quoted. You're a gullible idiot!

    • Corey Humm 4.2

      I don't think they care about reelection at this point. I think the cabinet of mediocrity is simply hoping it gets as many of its social engineering reforms through by mid 2023 as possible.

      They are doubling and trippling down on everything that makes them unpopular and have abandoned anything remotely popular.

      People voted labour because they thought they might do something about unaffordable housing, unaffordable rents, living costs, mental health, welfare ,health, tax reforms and in 2017 Jacinda even said she supported drug reform.

      Instead all those problems are worse and labour is worrying about Geoffrey Palmer esque pie in the sky constitutional reforms and social engineering.

      Tens of thousands wait on social housing lists and labour won't increase the percentage of social housing in total supply better to just copy national and throw them in costly motels rather than build state housing which is revenue asset for the govt but nevermind.

      Private Rentals are impossible to find but theres a hundred thousand empty houses in NZ the govt just shrugs. Instead of developing land and building houses we give land to developers to sell extremely overpriced two bedroom boxes that sit empty.

      Cost of living is out of control and our supermarket duopoly greed is hurting our people and a war with them would be extremely popular, the govt spends months saying it'll do something major doesn't even do the bare minimum. Another failed opportunity

      Instead of spending loads on training new nurses and doctors for free we spend loads on centralizing healthcare bureaucracy. While dying people sit in beds in our ers.

      Drops a CGT as soon as they start polling highly after March 15. wasted opportunity

      Pm whose popularity, like way Trudeau would have gotten weed reform Says she supports drug reform in 2017, the party doesn't wrote a coherent drug policy, pm refuses to say she supports drug reform Incase it costs her a single vote but will support euthanasia, the result is pretty much 50/50 and immediately govt rules out any reform desire weed reform being popular with half the country. Another cynical wasted opportunity and if you look at the weed industries around the world, one that is leaving NZ behind. Failure to get any drug reform from this govt is shameful.

      Instead of things on housing,cost of living , health, things people actually vote labour for we get hate speech laws, woke extremists running an anti terrorist unit, 3 waters, centralization, more hotels, a broadcast merger, co-govt constitutional reforms and a few crumbs like wage rises, benefit rises, bland climate reforms, weak workers rights reforms and more and more unaffordable empty box apartments.

      Yippie.

      Then there's the off touted COVID response , the one praised for not clogging up our healthcare system…. Except…… ambulances are so busy they aren't taking calls heart attacks have 1/4 survival rate, hospitals are chocker full and ambos are just dropping patients to emergency bay and picking which ones get treated and which ones don't…. Boy seems like we just postponed the health crisis by two years and didn't do anything with the two extra years to increase health care capacity.

      Thank God for vaccinations because otherwise we really would be upshit creek. Which is a credit to the govt but not increasing capacity is a discredit.

      In previous elections labour used to say we'd love to do this or that if only we had a majority. Now we know they what they will do with a majority. Constitutional reforms rather than economic or housing reforms. Yay!

      I hope labour wins a third term.

      Not because I think they'll do anything, they ruled out anything that would get people excited, I hope labour wins a third term cos national and act would be horrifically bad for many of my friends and families living standards. Labour just won't make it much worse.

      But if labour loses I hope it's a nat/nzf /act govt or nat/Maori/act govt cos those two centerist parties would stop act and national reeking too much ruthanasia on the poor.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 4.2.1

        But if labour loses I hope it's a nat/nzf /act govt or nat/Maori/act govt cos those two centerist parties would stop act and national reeking too much ruthanasia on the poor.

        Hope you're right, remembering that Richarsdon was a National party MP, finding her natural home (the Association of Consumers and Taxpayers NZ party, founded by Douglas and Quigley), only after she departed Parliament.

        And then a step to the right

  5. Patricia Bremner 5

    Yes Ross, it is always easier to sit on one side throwing rocks into the kitchen.

    Being able to produce change in an unstable world is harder. You did not mention 3 huge problems. Covid War Climate Change.

    All we hear from National is "We could do it better and cheaper"

    Righto!! Why do you think that would be? You new boss says "He would do the same"

    "He would spend the same" So what exactly would change….. Tax cuts?? How did that work for 90% of us???

    Oh I gedditt!! You would have a Big Daddy in charge.!! Not a "Girl"

    Guess what?? He needs to do more homework. This is not a company There is a big bad world out there having an effect on us. We can't ignore that for political convenience. Most countries are struggling.

    • Jester 5.1

      Don't forget when Labour were in opposition, they threw plenty of rocks and were going to fix the homeless issue, child poverty etc. and Kiwi build 10k houses a year, fix the state house wait list and hospital wait lists. All oppositions can promise the world as they don't have to deliver.

      How is that going now that they have been in government for nearly five years?

  6. Ad 6

    The EU has just voted to ban diesel and electric new cars by 2035.

    That's a good signal from the world's 3rd largest co2 polluter.

    I can't remember what our target is.

  7. PB 7

    Is everyone comfortable that around 20 people are dieing from Covid 19 related illness each day? That' over 100 deaths per week and the way its going looks odds for over 5,000 by years end. The business lobby won and the old, infirm and (probably) poor lost. I'll still vote Labour but when backbone was needed they didn't stand up for their people – it's a sore point for me and whilst I think that overall Covid was handled really well if we get to the next election with 10,000 dead from Covid it will be hard to use the handling of the pandemic as a reason to vote Labour. .

    • KJT 7.1

      I don't think anyone is "comfortable about it". Certainly still very concerned about the vulnerable around me.

      Once omicron was in the country, and everyone that could, or would be, was vaccinated, it is hard to say what else could be done. It is doubtful if enough people would have supported further lockdowns to make them effective. As we could see at the end of the last Auckland lockdown.

      Even China's draconian lockdowns are leaking. With pretty dire results in areas with around 60% vaccination rates.

      Keeping covid out until we had 95% vaccinated, has saved thousands of lives, compared with countries that didn't reach those levels before opening up.

      One thing that was conceded to business, which may have slowed the spread more, is the required length of self isolation. Ten days, not seven, would have accorded more with the probability of being infectious. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/02/17/1081510375/isolation-testing-omicron-infection

  8. Blade 8

    Interesting interview Jamie McKay had with soil scientist, Doug Edmeades. Some main points:

    1- Farmers need to realise urea isn't the best source of nitrogen, clover pasture is. Emades believes growing good clover pasture has become a lost art.

    Yeah, but urea gets a hell of a fast result even though much is lost into the atmosphere. And…I hate clover pasture, as anyone who has lifted and stacked clover hay bales will attest to.

    2- Soil does not produce nutrients, so fertiliser is a must. In the 80s when many farmers cut back on fertiliser, those who continued fertilising came out of the then farming slump in a much better position. When you use less fertiliser you need to reduce your stock numbers.

    3- Farmers use too much phosphate. That's a problem in NZ. I used bat guano for a few years. The phosphate reading when taken was off the charts. In alternative medicine, excessive phosphate is considered a cause for cancer and other diseases.

    Now for the contentious issue – Methane .

    Quote:

    ''Yes, ruminants produce CH4. Yes it is a greenhouse gas. Yes it may be possible to come up with interventions to reduce emissions from the animal.

    BUT! Let me explain.

    Methane is short-lived in the atmosphere. It hangs around for about 10 years before it is converted to CO2. For every unit of carbon the animal emits as CH4 it must ingest the same amount of carbon from its plant-based feed source, which, remember, comes initially from the CO2 in the atmosphere.

    From the animals perspective every bit of carbon it emits as methane it mopped up as carbon in its feed. The animal is both the source of the carbon in methane and it is also the sink for the equivalent amount of carbon in CO2. In this sense the carbon-methane cycle: methane-to-CO2-to-forage-plants-to-animals-to-methane, is a closed cycle.''

    Dr Doug Edmeades, MscHons, ONZM (Services to Agriculture), is an independent soil scientist based in Hamilton. He welcomes feedback – [email protected]

    In Vino has replied yesterday to some of these similar points:

    ''Blade – I read that crap in the local café. Utter baloney – the guy lies about methane, claims a closed system when much of his 'disappearing methane' converts to carbon dioxide, and peddles a load of wishful garbage.

    He claims that 'methane is gone in ten years.' If I remember correctly, that approximate figure is its half-life. And what is the point if farmers are replenishing it with a new full amount every year? No mention of methane being up to 60 times worse that CO2 as a heat-retaining gas.''

    One-eyed, wishful drivel.

    My point here is, and has always been, we don't see enough Edmeades in the media because they have issues with some mainstream narratives on climate change.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/the-country/news/dr-doug-edmeades-should-methane-be-included-in-the-ets/2RTYB2WJE5HMP4Y2V2J4ZQ66X4/

    • Robert Guyton 8.1

      Edmeades is a major drag on progress here in New Zealand.

      You're such a wag, Blade, waving your ineptly-baited hooks around here on TS. You do get nibbles, but to those watching, you're a subtle as, well, Edmeades himself.

      The methane excuse is utter nonsense. The hydroxyl argument is a red herring (note the continued fishing theme). In Vino said,

      "One-eyed, wishful drivel."

      Pretty fair comment, that.

      This, from you:

      "I hate clover pasture, as anyone who has lifted and stacked clover hay bales will attest to."

      Classic, though poorly expressed, trolling clap-trap. Red meat stuff. Carelessly expressed though – "anyone who has lifted and stacked clover hay bales" won't in fact, attest that you hate clover pasture.

      You might like to drop Edmeades a line yourself:-) and ask him why, if livestock methane is carbon-neutral and nothing to worry about, are farmers and their representatives etc. gleefully accepting the millions of dollars from the Government to research … methane reduction?

      Perhaps you can answer that question yourself?

      • Blade 8.1.1

        I don't usually respond to you, Robert, because I consider you a soundbite karen. But as you have extended yourself let's have looksee.

        ''Edmeades is a major drag on progress here in New Zealand.''

        Based on what? Your ideology?

        ''You're such a wag, Blade, waving your ineptly-baited hooks around here on TS. You do get nibbles, but to those watching, you're a subtle as, well, Edmeades himself.''

        I put this up for debate because it is current in the media; it stops the blog becoming an echo chamber and as I'm continually considered nuts because I don't believe in manmade climate change shouldn't I be able to defend myself? Hooks and nibbles is more to do with your mind set.

        "I hate clover pasture, as anyone who has lifted and stacked clover hay bales will attest to." Classic, though poorly expressed, trolling clap-trap.

        In fact it was side comment as to the extreme weight of clover bales. Some can come in at 70-80kgs wet. I can’t see you hacking that work, Robert.wink Again your unusual mind set on display.

        ''Red meat stuff.''

        We can't have that can we, Robert. Although the world loves our pasture fed red meat.

        ''You might like to drop Edmeades a line yourself:-) ''

        Why don't you drop him a line? When you don't get a reply you may like to ask yourself why?indecision

        • In Vino 8.1.1.1

          Sorry, Blade, but you have maxed out again. I think I did a lot more hay-bale lifting that you ever did. Through all my Uni years it was my summer holiday job. 3 of us running one truck plus a loader (good boss back then – we shared driving once every 3 loads of 120 bales, but at the barn we all had to stack like hell..

          My one little concession to capitalism: we were paid per bale moved. We were efficient. The few times we saw guys being paid by the hour, they were so slow that we felt nothing but contempt.

          So yes – reward productivity.

          Clover bales were lovely when properly dried. They hurt your thighs much less! Heavier when wet, and more likely to cook and catch alight if stacked in a barn too wet.

          I picked up bales each summer starting 1965 til 1970. I had hoped it would make me a muscleman, but it just made me skinny and wiry with little, bumpy arm muscles. And it made me very fit, but I have slowly worked that off.

          Edmeades as I see it does not prove a closed system for farming. His argument that farms absorb as much carbon dioxide as they produce does not counter the carbon dioxide produced as the methane magically disappears. Nor does he seem bothered about the seriously more damaging effect of methane itself.

          We need to reduce methane urgently, not rabbit on about theoretically closed systems.. Edmeades appears to be aiding an interested status quo party to my mind.

          • Blade 8.1.1.1.1

            Great story. I only did two seasons. And yes, I, like you, only put on arm muscle. But I was lean and mean…and bloody fit. I also saw 3 people walk off the job because they couldn't hack it. Lord knows how many would walk off the job nowadays.

            • In Vino 8.1.1.1.1.1

              Only just got through my first week. Several guys dropped out after a day or so.. Including a police trainee.

              Maybe we were still under the effects that the Great Depression had on our parents… There are still plenty of good young guys (Covid has just forced my retirement from Secondary School Relief Teaching) and there are also heaps of tough-looking young guys that would not hack it.

              More worrying – there are also disaffected young guys who would put that kind of effort in for a gang, but not for a standard job.

              Low wage economy makes hard work a sucker's game nowadays?

              And how did we end up with an unproductive, low-wage economy?

              I blame Roger Douglas. I heard him say on the radio in early days that we must do all his reforms, but NOT become a low-wage economy.

              Every reform he did weakened unions, and promoted a low-wage economy.

              Great. Thanks a million, Rogernomes.

        • Blade 8.1.1.2

          On second thoughts I will drop him a line with a link to this thread. Let's see what the cat drags in.

          • KJT 8.1.1.2.1

            Please don't. One ignorant F-wit per thread is enough!

            • Blade 8.1.1.2.1.1

              No abuse please. We have been warned enough.

              A reply will either show him to be incompetent, or it will as Earle Kirton was fond of saying, ''be good night nurse'' for some experts on this thread.

              • In Vino

                Blade – you are the recent arrival, and the troll. Don't presume to teach us manners.

                • Blade

                  I'm teaching you nothing. Incognito laid down the kaupapa and suggested we follow it. That's what I'm doing and from my perspective KJT isn't.

                  You also called me a troll. You will need to back that up and show me where I'm trolling. And no, posting articles that aren't kosher from a Leftie perspective is not trolling in my opinion.

                  The good news for you is if I'm not booted off before hand , I will be gone for good after the next election. This will be no place for a Rightie to ply his trade. So grit ya teeth. Time will fly… and before you know it Luxon will be pontificating on the podium about how National is going to make NZ great again.sadfrownsurprise

    • Drowsy M. Kram 8.2

      This is not the case with methane. The methane-carbon mop is built in. The animal is both the source and the sink – you cannot have one without the other. The animal is CH₄-carbon neutral.

      Seems Dr Edmeades' ONZM award (2013) for Services to Agriculture was well-earned.

      Increase in atmospheric methane set another record during 2021
      [7 April 2022]
      NOAA’s preliminary analysis showed the annual increase in atmospheric methane during 2021 was 17 parts per billion (ppb), the largest annual increase recorded since systematic measurements began in 1983. The increase during 2020 was 15.3 ppb. Atmospheric methane levels averaged 1,895.7 ppb during 2021, or around 162% greater than pre-industrial levels. From NOAA’s observations, scientists estimate global methane emissions in 2021 are 15% higher than the 1984-2006 period.

      How necessary and feasible are reductions of methane emissions from livestock to support stringent temperature goals? [27 Sept 2021]
      Most fundamentally though, none of the mitigation pathways and options discussed in our study will come to pass without targeted policies to address greenhouse gas emissions, reduce the global demand for emissions-intensive livestock products and provide for transitions of those most affected by the necessary transformative changes. The significant potential for the reduction of livestock CH₄ emissions can only be realized if agriculture, and livestock systems in particular, become part of mainstream climate policies, while recognizing their unique and multiple interacting social, cultural and environmental functions.

      And what Robert Guyton wrote @8.1. Sand still not bothering you? What’s your secret?

      • pat 8.2.1

        And the source of that increase in ppm methane is?

        • Poission 8.2.1.1

          Leaky pipes,emissions from coalfields, flaring ,flatulence from Kale.

          NZ total ch4 emissions are not even the standard error.

          • pat 8.2.1.1.1

            Indeed…and the largest source of biogenic methane (that which is part of the carbon cycle) is wetlands.

            https://newscenter.lbl.gov/2020/08/13/global-methane-emissions-soaring-but-how-much-was-due-to-wetlands/

            We may have too many cattle beasts but they are not the main cause of increasing atmospheric methane, indeed those studying it are struggling to account for it.

            https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2020/02/19/were-vastly-undercounting-methane-emissions-fossil-fuels-scientists-say/

            • Poission 8.2.1.1.1.1

              Wetlands are interesting insofar as they have a huge ability to lay down carbon,

              https://cdiac.ess-dive.lbl.gov/trends/ecosystems/gajewski.gif

              There is a real complex ecosystem there,which is difficult to model,With coastal wetlands they do not produce so much CH4 due to SO2 from the sea (acid rain) from algae.

              • Robert Guyton

                Poission is right. Wetlands will be the saving of us (those of us who live in regions where wetlands were, pre-agriculture, vast wetlands – put them back)!!

              • pat

                I fear another forest carbon credit debacle is in the offering…..are we to ban rice paddies next?

                • Poission

                  Probably right.Ted talks and investor conferences.

                • Robert Guyton

                  Not ban wetlands; fens, bogs, swamps and mires – make more of them!!

                  Many more. The benefits are enormous! Food production from wetlands is something that was once well known, but has been forgotten, mainly, til now. Eels, crayfish, mussels and more, not counting plants (watercress etc.

                  Best thing though, the filtering, cleansing, water-slowing effects of wetlands. Uncounted savings to all regions, subject to flooding.

                  • pat

                    But they produce methane Robert….public enemy number one!

                    • Robert Guyton

                      If farmers can claim a natural methane cycle for their animals, wetland defenders can surely claim the same for their waterbodies!

                      Carbon sequestration by wetlands is beyond "significant". We'd be fools to talk wetlands down.

                    • pat

                      Or…

                      If wetlanders can claim a natural methane cycle farmers can claim the same for their stock.

                      Carbon sequestration on farms is significant. We'd be fools to talk food production down.

                    • Poission

                      With a 500b$ foreign liability,and a country that is fiscally restrained destocking of Bovine /ovine biomass needs to be matched by the removal of equivalent human biomass from NZ.

                      No welfare state,15-20% mortgages,councillors reduced to minimum hourly rate for meetings only,a reduction in MP'S a population of around 1990 or less.

                    • pat

                      "…a reduction in MP'S a population of around 1990 or less."

                      Every cloud has a silver lining

                    • Robert Guyton

                      We'd be fools not to recognise that "food production" does not equal "livestock farming as presently practiced".

                      It's not a binary.

                      There are many other food production models and many other foods.

                      Milk is not King!

                    • pat

                      "There are many other food production models and many other foods.:

                      Indeed there are….however methane accounting is not being used as a reason to remove them (at least not here)

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    Curbing methane emissions: How five industries can counter a major climate threat [23 Sept 2021]
                    Companies can take three no-regrets actions to begin reducing methane emissions
                    Action 2: Support sustainable consumption. Stakeholders could develop mechanisms to differentiate assets and score products based on their methane footprints. If every kilogram of rice, million British thermal units (MMBtu) of natural gas, ton of steel, pound of meat, barrel of oil, and ton of coal came with a methane-intensity label, the market signals could support a more orderly decarbonization transition. With this, retailers and consumers could make more informed purchasing decisions, producers could define new foundations for competitive advantage, and investors could better understand portfolio risk.

                    Or we can support unsustainable consumption – it's a 'free' choice.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 8.2.1.2

          New analysis shows microbial sources fueling rise of atmospheric methane [17 June 2021]
          The sudden and sustained rise in atmospheric levels of the potent greenhouse gas methane since 2007 has posed one of the most significant and pressing questions in climate research: Where is it coming from?

          Fossil fuel emissions? Biological sources? A diminished capacity by the atmosphere to break down methane? A climate tipping point?

          Lan said the data pointed to microbial sources, such as natural wetlands, shallow lakes and rivers, and human-managed sources like livestock, landfills, rice paddies, and wastewater treatment.

          Quantifying fossil fuel methane emissions using observations of atmospheric ethane and an uncertain emission ratio [25 March 2022]
          Using the joint methane–ethane inverse model, we estimate annual mean UK methane emissions of approximately 0.27 (95 % uncertainty interval 0.26–0.29) Tg yr−1 from fossil fuel sources and 2.06 (1.99–2.15) Tg yr−1 from non-fossil fuel sources, during the period 2015–2019.
          https://acp.copernicus.org/articles/22/3911/2022/acp-22-3911-2022.html

    • Macro 8.3

      The half-life of methane in the atmosphere is around 9.1 years so NO it has not all disappeared in 10 years. Only half of it has converted into CO2 and water vapour – both also GHGs. After another 9.1 years another 1/4 of the original amount will have converted into CO2 and water vapour, and then another 9.1 years later 1/8 and so on. That is how half-lifes work.

      My point here is, and has always been, we don't see enough Edmeades in the media because they have issues with some mainstream narratives on climate change.

      The main point is that Edmeades represents about 2.5% of scientific opinion on the matter. The jury is well out against him and for good reason. There are numerous papers and reports that show that the Methane cycle is out of balance – largely caused by increased numbers of agricultural livestock. A fair summary is here:

      A 2006 UN FAO report reported that livestock generate more greenhouse gases as measured in CO2 equivalents than the entire transportation sector. Livestock accounts for 9 percent of anthropogenic CO2, 65 percent of anthropogenic nitrous oxide and 37 percent of anthropogenic methane. A senior UN official and co-author of the report, Henning Steinfeld, said "Livestock are one of the most significant contributors to today's most serious environmental problems."[63]

      Recent NASA research has confirmed the vital role of enteric fermentation in livestock on global warming. "We understand that other greenhouse gases apart from carbon dioxide are important for climate change today," said Gavin Schmidt, the lead author of the study and a researcher at NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York City and Columbia University's Center for Climate Systems Research.[64] Other recent peer reviewed NASA research published in the journal Science has also indicated that the contribution of methane to global warming has been underestimated

      • Blade 8.3.1

        ''The half-life of methane in the atmosphere is around 9.1 years so NO it has not all disappeared in 10 years. Only half of it has converted into CO2 and water vapour – both also GHGs. After another 9.1 years another 1/4 of the original amount will have converted into CO2 and water vapour, and then another 9.1 years later 1/8 and so on. That is how half-lifes work.''

        Could you please provide a link ? That's not how I understand things.

        https://gml.noaa.gov/education/info_activities/pdfs/CTA_the_methane_cycle.pdf

        • Incognito 8.3.1.1

        • Macro 8.3.1.2

          Half-life is defined as the amount of time it takes a given quantity to decrease to half of its initial value. The term is most commonly used in relation to atoms undergoing radioactive decay, but can be used to describe other types of decay, whether exponential or not.

          https://www.calculator.net/half-life-calculator.html

          Methane has a large effect but for a relatively brief period, having an estimated mean half-life of 9.1 years in the atmosphere,[21][page needed] whereas carbon dioxide is currently given an estimated mean lifetime of over 100 years.

          The globally averaged concentration of methane in Earth's atmosphere increased by about 150% from 722 ± 25 ppb in 1750 to 1803.2 ± 1.2 ppb in 2011.[22] As of 2011, methane contributed radiative forcing of 0.48 ± 0.05 Wm−2,[23] or about 17% of the total radiative forcing from all of the long-lived and globally mixed greenhouse gases.[citation needed] According to NOAA, the atmospheric methane concentration has continued to increase since 2011 to an average global concentration of 1892.2 ppb as of December 2020.[24] The March 2019 peak was 1866.2 ppb, while the April 2020 peak was 1876.0 ppb, a .5% increase.[24]

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_methane

          • In Vino 8.3.1.2.1

            Thanks, Macro.

            I tried to put the half-life thing to Blade a few days ago, but he ignores and pretends not to get it.

            He obfuscates deliberately. That is his role.

            • Blade 8.3.1.2.1.1

              Easy cowboy… be careful before you jump to conclusions. That half-life thing is interesting… I'll mull over it for a couple days. You should too.

              • Incognito

                If the concept of half-life will take you a few days to mull over, how long did it take you to mull over magnetism and paramagnetism? The mind boggles …

    • KJT 8.4

      "In this sense the carbon-methane cycle: methane-to-CO2-to-forage-plants-to-animals-to-methane, is a closed cycle.''

      Claptrap.

      In a "closed cycle" you don't have to keep adding nutrients, including soil carbons.

  9. Robert Guyton 9

    "Soil does not produce nutrients"

    Oh Lordy, protect is from these fools!

    I wonder how anything grew at all, in the millions and millions of years that preceded the discovery of urea and super-duper phosphate?

    Poor know-nothing Mother Nature!

    • weka 9.1

      Those sneaky forests too, must be running a black market import of fert. From somewhere.

      • Grafton Gully 9.1.1

        Seabirds import fertiliser to some forests.

        "Seabird colonies in New Zealand represent the rich diversity of coastal and pelagic seabirds, and are hotspots of intense nutrient and trace element cycling that provide examples of natural nutrient enrichment in terrestrial and stream ecosystems."

        Quote from the first paragraph of the review conclusions.

        https://newzealandecology.org/nzje/3455.pdf

      • Blade 9.1.2

        We are talking high density farming with no biomass accumulation as in a forest.

        Talking of fert , I have tried nearly everything. Yet I've narrowed things down to seaweed, lawn clippings and salt. Salt has all the minerals many soils need due to depletion. My crops go crazy.

        Could you pass this on to Rob, Weka. Best it comes from you.

        • Robert Guyton 9.1.2.1

          You have a lawn?

          Living in the Stone Age still!

          No matter. Converting it into soil is something.

          Keep piling on the salt, Blade.

          That'll teach you.

        • weka 9.1.2.2

          farmers can make their crops go crazy in various ways. Or they can ask nature for a helping hand and make their farms live in perpetuity once the fossil fuels and artificial inputs are gone.

          • Blade 9.1.2.2.1

            Agree 100%. I'm an organic farmer. Although it must be remembered organic farming like vegan diets demands very careful management and in some cases isn't superior to conventional farming ( in my opinion). Beetroots for example have a higher nitrate content when grown conventionally. And that's what health nuts and body builders want – a high nitrate profile.

            • Robert Guyton 9.1.2.2.1.1

              "I am an organic farmer"

              You use lawn clippings primarily, as fertiliser, Blade?

              How big is your farm?

              • pat

                A piece you may (or perhaps not) enjoy Robert.

                "Aotearoa New Zealand’s pastoral agriculture has been entirely based on this through the use of grass and clover pastures. Indeed until the expansion of dairying since the 1990s, pastoral and arable farming here used no nitrogen fertilisers – all the nitrogen came from clovers biologically fixing it. This is how organic agriculture that prohibits the use of nitrogen fertilisers works. It is therefore possible to farm without using any nitrogen fertiliser at all, in contrast to lithospheric fertilisers. Yes, compromises have to be made in the production system and there can be profit implications, but, Aotearoa New Zealand farmed for nearly its entire history without nitrogen fertilisers so it is possible to do so again."

                https://www.newsroom.co.nz/farmers-dont-need-nitrogen-fertilisers-at-all

                • Blade

                  Interesting expansion on what Edmeades said about clover pasture use being a lost art in NZ.

                  • pat

                    I see it as akin to our use of PKE….we waste over a billion a year (IIRC) importing a product that is effectively unnecessary. A lot of our issues can be traced back to the need to service greatly inflated land values that force everyone to maximise every possible skerrick of production to satisfy the bank.

                • Robert Guyton

                  This is not news to me, pat.

                  In my forest garden, I've included a wide range of leguminous plants; clovers, vetches, lupines, peas, beans, kakabeak, kowhai, tagasaste, laburnum, gleditsia, etc. to serve as nitrogen-collectors for the benefit of the other plants.

                  New Zealand farmers will return to plant-generated nitrates for their pastures before too long. Many already have.
                  I hope the warming environment doesn’t favour weevils.

                  • pat

                    "New Zealand farmers will return to plant-generated nitrates for their pastures before too long."

                    I expect so, though not necessarily by choice.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      I'm betting farmers don't choose "the need to service greatly inflated land values that force everyone to maximise every possible skerrick of production to satisfy the bank." either.

                    • KJT

                      Well the capital gains farmers, which appears to be the majority of "farm investors" these days, chose it, in the expectations of high returns on selling the farms.

                      Like the “house hoarders”, capital gains, not the long term future of farming, is the goal.

                    • pat

                      Hobsons choice

              • Blade

                In old terms – all up, 10 acres. When I say lawn clippings, that also includes other green matter as well. The place was liberally coated with rock dust about 15 years ago, not so much for the minerals, but for the paramagnetism.

                • Robert Guyton

                  You fertilise your entire 10 acre block with "seaweed, lawn clippings and salt"?

                  Hmmm….

                  That's a fairly thin application of lawn clippings, Blade.

                  Unless your lawn is huge. What percentage of your farm is lawn? It would have to be considerable to be able to service 10 acres!

                  How much "salt" do you need to cover that area?

                  If you are using seawater, you'd need a considerable amount to cover 10 acres; how do you collect that much seawater?

                  You also need a huge volumn of seaweed to cover 10 acres. How do you do this?

                  Your farm sounds very interesting.
                  Question: was your rockiest Israelii?

                  • Robert Guyton

                    Rock dust. Did it come from Israel?

                    • Blade

                      Nope. Up North. I originally bought it from a defunct outfit in Mt Maunganui.

                      I now buy it from: https://environmentalfertilisers.co.nz/contact/

                      Check them out. Some of their organic mixes are excellent.

                      I also use Bio Char, and my water is vortexed using Viktor Schauberger like tech.

                      Pressed for time. Will answer your other questions later.

                      Oh – seaweed meal. Beach seaweed when I have time. You cannot harvest living seaweed.

                    • Blade

                      ''Unless your lawn is huge. What percentage of your farm is lawn? It would have to be considerable to be able to service 10 acres.''

                      About one third. Also boundary weeds and leaves etc. Bio Char is interesting. It is self perpetuating. But in some respects has been over sold. How Bio Char was used in the Amazon is still not completely understood.

                      ''If you are using seawater, you'd need a considerable amount to cover 10 acres; how do you collect that much seawater.''

                      Fair questions. It's not viable for most farmers. Hence ocean solids are mixed with farm water and then spread. This dude in the clip is obviously a hobby farmer like me. Other clips will show how salt in used in bigger operation.

                • Robert Guyton

                  3 acres of lawn? Wow! HUGE lawn!!

                  What do you make your biochar from?

                  "The place was liberally coated with rock dust about 15 years ago"

                  I didn't realise you are still applying it – why is that? Does your land need a top-up?

                  • Blade

                    ''What do you make your biochar from?''

                    I buy. But for someone like you with plenty of prunings ( I would assume) you could make your own quite easily. Just remember to inoculate it.

                    "The place was liberally coated with rock dust about 15 years ago"

                    I didn't realise you are still applying it – why is that? Does your land need a top-up?

                    I only applied it once as stated above for the paramagnetism. People forget rock dust can take ages to be broke down by bacteria. It is not bio available for a long time. Hence by using salt I am not doubling up on minerals or applying rock dust in a different form each year.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Oh, I see. It's just that you wrote:

                      "I now buy it from: https://environmentalfertilisers.co.nz/contact/"

                      I wondered if you are still applying rock dust.

                      Interesting to hear about your "Viktor Schauberger like tech." for vortexing your water. Those are pretty cool technologies – where did you get yours? What form does it take? It is possible to make your own – is that what you've done. Interesting stuff, Blade. I'd like to hear more!

                    • Blade

                      I see..yes, I still buy it but not for my own use at present. We are soaking dust in water and using it in compost at a rellies place. He likes to grow herbs. blush I have told him he may be wasting his time with rock dust. He see's thing differently, time will tell. If I'm wrong, I learn something new.

                      I had mine made. It's a very simple affair. Something like the copper pipe in this link.

                      https://www.alivewater.com/vortex-water-revitalizer-product-description

                      But before you doing anything like that. Do this. Buy one. The price is highway robbery. I bought a packet of them for $4, I think, a while back on Ali express. But with postage delay at present, it's better to pay the higher price.

                      Then you can experiment. Minimum four twists one way, four the other way. Then water a pot plant etc. Better still, drink a cup of the water and if liver isn't clean, or your body needs a clean out, you will be down with flu like symptoms.

                      https://nzl.grandado.com/products/vortex-bottle-connector-tornado-in-a-bottle-cyclone-tube-tornado-maker-magic-toy-9?variant=UHJvZHVjdFZhcmlhbnQ6MjA4NzA4NDk4

                    • Robert Guyton

                      More questions about your organic practices, Blade – what do you do with the biochar you buy?

        • Drowsy M. Kram 9.1.2.3

          Yet I've narrowed things down to seaweed, lawn clippings and salt…
          My crops go crazy.

          Blade, do you mean NaCl (sodium chloride) salt, or nitrogen, potassium, sulfur, and phosphorus (mineral) salts? Just asking because I would have thought NaCl (sea salt) couldn't be too good for your orange tree.

          My small orange tree does alright with a few NPK granules springled along the drip line twice a year. NaCl would be much cheaper. Should I apply sparingly?
          Don't want my orange crop to become completely deranged laughlaughlaugh

          Drought and Salinity in Citriculture: Optimal Practices to Alleviate Salinity and Water Stress [24 June 2021]

          • RedLogix 9.1.2.3.1

            I would have guessed he means unprocessed 'sea salt' – which contains a pretty wide range of minerals.

          • Blade 9.1.2.3.2

            No, ordinary unrefined sea salt. Trust me ,when I first heard of this I called bs. I was wrong. It's one of the most potent fertilisers I have ever used . See my links.

            The ratio is three and a half litres of water to 1 teaspoon of salt, once per month.

            Others use way more. Some less. I also sprinkle a handful of salt around a mature tree once a year.

            The salt must be unrefined. The minerals in unrefined salt provides a degree of buffering. Refined salt is worthless and will kill your plants. It's not good for human health either. Makes a good weed killer though.

            Even though I get great results, I was brought up on the notion salt is a poison for plants. I can't shake that mind conditioning. I still freak out when using salt on my plants. So I suggest you carry on with what you are doing with your orange tree and just use salt on a test plant to put your mind a ease.

            Salt water from the sea can be applied directly once a month. Others suggest 1/3 sea water to 2/3 tap water.

            It's true some plants are salt sensitive. Your link says that about citrus. But I have never had a problem with the above routines. However, it may be prudent to take a year off now and again.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 9.1.2.3.2.1

              Thanks Blade, I will try diluted seawater – certainly cheaper than Yates Thrive (Citrus & Fruit). There are, of course, a range citrus fertilisers.

    • Blade 9.2

      It's not super-duper phosphate, Robert. It was meant to be spread with equal parts Dolomite. Now you know why much of our pastural land is out of kilter.

      • Robert Guyton 9.2.1

        You sure learned me good tonight, Sensei!

        • Blade 9.2.1.1

          Right. Now it's your turn to learn me something I can use.

          • In Vino 9.2.1.1.1

            My Bullshit detector keeps annoying me. It won't turn off.

            Great trolling, I have to admit.

            • Blade 9.2.1.1.1.1

              I wouldn't have a clue what you are talking about. Sometimes changing the battery helps.

            • Robert Guyton 9.2.1.1.1.2

              You are watering your farm with one of those??

              Now I AM astonished!

              • Blade

                Well, In Vino only has a quarter acre. So he can spread his bs to a reasonable concentration.laugh

                • Robert Guyton

                  Like In Vino, I think you are bullsh*tting 🙂

                  • Blade

                    Then why did you feign interest and waste my time? I put some effort into those posts?

                    • Robert Guyton

                      You do seem to have done some research, Blade and it shows.

                    • Blade

                      Not research -practical applications. I understand. It's a little too advanced. And you cannot conceive of me doing such stuff. But Robert, you didn't fool me. Anyone could see you were stringing me along. You don't go from trolling me, to suddenly hanging off my every word.laugh

                      So why did I waste my time on you? Simple. As a testament to the machination of an Immoral Lefty mindset that knows no limits. A future reference for those asking for proof about the faults of Lefties I supposedly write about.

                      Thankyou.yes

                    • Robert Guyton

                      "As a testament to the machination of an Immoral Lefty mindset that knows no limits. A future reference for those asking for proof about the faults of Lefties I supposedly write about."

                      Juicy, crunchy word-salad!

                      Yummies!

                    • Blade

                      It matters not what you think. Only what you wrote. I was hoping for more. But you scribbled enough.

            • Robert Guyton 9.2.1.1.1.3

              Your detector is in fine shape, In Vino.

  10. Loved it!

    Our damned fine Minister of Police, in response to a sarcastic question from little David, as to how she would characterise her comment to bully boy Mercenary Mitchell as 'riding shot-gun with the boys,' she replied as pretty accurate!

    Slap down!

    Poto is another one of many fine Labour Government ministers.

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It appears that the upgrade to Wordpress 6 is causing issues on the comment Reply feature. I'll look at that in a couple of hours lprent