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Open mike 09/10/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, October 9th, 2019 - 105 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

105 comments on “Open mike 09/10/2019 ”

  1. lprent 1

    Testing quora links

    https://qr.ae/TW2iKt

    https://www.quora.com/q/rdukxjzcmjiyntov/Australia-Is-The-Land-Of-Nope-And-Here-Are-40-Pictures-Proving-It

    Updated: ok – that doesn’t work.

    Umm embedly?

    Australia Is The Land Of ‘Nope’, And Here Are 40 Pictures Proving It

    Welcome to No Filter Necessary! I had a vision of a space where there was verbal freedom. A no judgement zone, per se. Freedom to discuss anything and everything. Ranging from relationships, psychology, humor, politics and eclectic ideas. Quirky news and interesting shares are welcome, too.

    Not particularly satisfactory – and it is an advert rather than the message. I guess I will add this to the nice to code list. Maybe after the UK and jury service.

    BTW: the link has a picture of dead whale about to explode.

    • weka 1.1

      Looks ok to me, apart from the social media links on the right being tucked under the edge of the thread.

      • lprent 1.1.1

        Her piece had a comment – which has been replaced with something about quora, and it should display the quora 'post' which has two images from the BoredPanda article she is linking to.

        This abbreviates it all.

        It also inserts a iframe using script.

  2. Peter 2

    We'll soon be in the Halberg Awards swirl.

    What chance a win for Grant Robertson? The achievement?

    Pulling a $7.5 billion surplus out of Steven Joyce's $11.7 billion fiscal hole.

    A Highly Commended too for Simon Bridges and team for hiding up the hole I reckon.

  3. (this is kinda interesting – the military unload on the orange sack of pus..)

    '..Amid threats spanning the globe, from nuclear proliferation to mined tankers in the Persian Gulf to terrorist attacks and cyberwarfare, those in command positions monitor the president’s Twitter feed like field officers scanning the horizon for enemy troop movements.

    A new front line in national defense has become the White House Situation Room, where the military struggles to accommodate a commander in chief who is both ignorant and capricious…'

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/11/military-officers-trump/598360/

    • Kevin 3.1

      And the alternatives?

      Has the decision making of Presidents more agreeable to the Pentagon been any better?

      • phillip ure 3.1.1

        i think you are missing the point there..kevin..

        it illustrates just how batshit-crazy he is…

        • Kevin 3.1.1.1

          Thats not really anything new though. I take your point but I think that he is batshit crazy has probably saved the world from a lot of grief. His reluctance to get involved in regime change where predecessors have jumped in at the drop of a hat has been beneficial to world security.

    • New view 3.2

      Don’t normally care for your comments phill but I’m on your side this time. To see a corrupt president wrap the White House blanket around him for protection is vomit material and shows that the USA (the leader of the free world) is just a garbage can full of shit you can’t recycle.

  4. The Chairman 4

    Well worth checking out

  5. mac1 5

    Here's another very challenging article published today.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/116409148/climate-explained-why-some-people-still-think-climate-change-isnt-real

    Auckland University political scientist examines what the reasons for climate change denial are.

    Are these factors levels of religious belief, authoritarian tendency, education, age, sex, or political beliefs? Hint, the article is written by a political scientist…..

    And not that I don’t want to discourage reasoned debate, but the article says this, “…… brow-beating deniers with further climate science is unlikely to succeed: their faculty of reason is motivated to defend itself from revising its beliefs.”

    • ianmac 5.1

      Just read Bernard Hickey's piece about "Let’s vote to re-engineer our cities" and the theme is what blocks change and development.

      Why don’t councils like public transport, cycling and pedestrians much?

      Councillors and mayors know they are voted in by mostly old property-owning ratepayers in the suburbs. They know they mostly want to drive everywhere and not have too many other people living in their suburb and clogging up the roads and curbs. Those voters think everyone should have a house with a back yard for the kids and two cars and be able to drive to work and school within 15 minutes, just like they did when they lived in another smaller city or Auckland 20 years ago.

      Public transport, cycling and pedestrian-friendly streetscapes cost a lot for councils and the Government to build and they often take lanes and fuel taxes off drivers. The funds have to come from taxes, rates or borrowing, which many voters think will put up their rates or prevent future tax cuts.

      If Bernard had published this sooner it would have caused my Council vote to change. (Why can't Jacinda action those things that need to change?)

      https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/10/09/848822/lets-vote-to-re-engineer-our-cities

    • ianmac 5.2

      Mac 1. And the Status Quo does suit those who are already "made."

      • mac1 5.2.1

        I'm not claiming to be a psychologist at all, but the idea that reasoning is affected by factors other than logic or facts such as a judge would use wouls seem to apply to more than climste change denial.

        The factors of age, education levels, income, belief in hierarchy, political views, the more religious would tend to favour those with a stake in suburbia and the status quo.

        The article spoke of three general factors which influence our reasoning-"values, ideologies and political allegiances".

        The other encouraging note in the article referring to climate deniers is that "deniers are in the minority" and that clever discussion using reframing of the issues around acceptable conservative values can win support even among these reasoning-limited folk.

        When I gave a recent talk about Cancer and Survival, I put in a plug for universal and free public health which of course is a socialist ideal. I framed it in th econtect of cancer which is no repecter of class, age, income , education, wealth, politics. Ww all are affected and so therefore communially we address it.

    • soddenleaf 5.3

      All well and good, but who frames conservativism as being patriotic. It's never been patriotic to be a conservative, doing nothing is not patriotism. Patrioticism is standing up against those who destroy our way of life, mostly those who think their safe and have nothing to care about. The universe continues to move on, so inevitably, change, adaptation, are necessary. Hence why conservatism is repugnantism. The most repugnated naturally fall into the conservative camp. Aka Trump. Now that's not to say we don't need repugnant people, we just need them to be on the side of adaptation, coz that is how change happens, the stupid, absurd, and laughable become the new reality. So it's not that nasty people exist, it's that the nasty people are to safe in staying put. I.e the gatekeepers like Murdoch, has had it too easy.

      The caveat though, is the Reich,change was essential but Germans were too safe in their denial, the nasty fringe work for them rather than against them. If Hitler had been a liberal, and Germans of the time flocked to him…

      Climate change, thank Murdoch.

      • mac1 5.3.1

        Soddenleaf, I think you have it about face.The article writer was saying that a reframing of an issue to persuade conservatives to buy in by reframimg it as a patriotic issue. (Keep NZ safe from overseas invaders, peaceful or otherwise, who see our country as a s haven in the times of tribulation after the climate changes really bite, would be my example).

        You are arguing that conservatives cannot be patriotic because they can't be acting as a patriot, motivated by patriotism, as you define it.

        The article is saying to use patriotism as one value that conservatives believe they have because they believe it is virtuous to be patriotic.

        Whether you are right or not about whether conservatives can be patriotic is not the issue.

        The issue is that you can persuade deniers into a support stance by careful reframing of climate change to suit their values, beliefs and ideology.

        Te article also instances reframing with an envirinmental purity stance. Keep NZ greener, cleaner, more sanaitary, more disease free, with healthier, cheaper, tastier food grown by Kiwis, and a continuance of a country's natural assets which we can be proud of etc etc etc.

  6. Sanctuary 6

    Stephen Colbert, a big fan of Jacinda and NZ, is here in NZ in the next week or two to record the Late Show. The Nobel Peace Prize is announced on Friday… Being picked up at the airport by the just announced winner of the Nobel Peace Prize would be fantastic kudos for Colbert and good for ratings.

    Perhaps a sotto voce message has been be passed on to Mr. Colbert? Or to long a bow to draw, dear Standardnistas?

    • Rosemary McDonald 6.1

      Back in the day, the NPP used to count for something.

      Extraordinary, above and beyond….that kinda thing.

      I can't see what Our Leader has done to be even in the running.

      IMHO

      • weka 6.1.1

        How far back are you going for back in the day?

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_Peace_Prize_laureates

      • aom 6.1.2

        At least the PM has done a damned sight more that is constructive than Obama. He was the master of death and destruction wrapped in eloquent obfuscating speech. Hardly peace prize attributes.

        • Rosemary McDonal 6.1.2.1

          '….Obama…?'

          My point exactly.

          The value of the Prize has been diminished with such winners.

          Personally I think politicians should not be eligible. After all..they are just doing their job….occasionally.

        • Dukeofurl 6.1.2.2

          Obama was nominated barely months after being elected. All the drone stuff came later, and hes that sort of smart guy who gets hooked by all the geeky things the military can do

          • A 6.1.2.2.1

            NP shouldn't have been awarded on campaign promises, which it effectively was in this case.

          • phillip ure 6.1.2.2.2

            obasma didn't do just 'drones'..

            he deserves infamy/is a war-criminal for what he did to libya..

            he turned the most progressive country in the middle east – libya – into the fundamentalist/war-wracked hellhole it is now…

      • phillip ure 6.1.3

        @ mcdonald..

        achieving 'the impossible' – she got the big-tech companies to agree to work to curtail terrorist content online..?

        her reaction to chch massacre – showing other countries how to get rid of citizens running around with machine-guns..?

        and justified or not – she is the current international model for a thorougtly modern political leader..(baby/house-husband..etc..)

        anyone else you can think of who has done more..?

        (and the obama factor does kick in..as j.a. is unliky to besmirch the award..invade/bomb anyone anytime soon..)

        (i’d say it’s between her and ‘the kid’..)

        • Rosemary McDonald 6.1.3.1

          Time will tell how much substance behind the agreeable words from the tech companies. Talk is cheap and easy.

          Ardern has a media profile….no doubt about that…but does that make her deserving of such a major award?

          Hmm….I say give it to the kid. Ardern sounded bland and uncommitted at the UN the other day in comparison to the youngster.

          • phillip ure 6.1.3.1.1

            i agree the kid should get it – for what she is representing for..

            but if they decide she is too young..i see ardern as in with a strong chance..

            (and it would be fun – seeing all those tory heads exploding..

            and hosking – for one – will have a total meltdown – which would also be fun to watch..)

            • Dukeofurl 6.1.3.1.1.1

              Who remembers the 'other child climate activist' from 30 years ago

              "It was 1992 and Severn Cullis-Suzuki, daughter of Canadian environmentalist David Suzuki, was addressing the plenary session of the UN Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro.

              "Severn, [12 yrs old] along with other members of a group she had founded called the Environmental Children’s Organisation, had raised money “to come 5000 miles [to Rio conference] to tell you adults you must change your ways”.

              https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/before-greta-there-was-severn-the-b-c-girl-who-silenced-the-world

              • Robert Guyton

                I do and watched her speech at the time she delivered it. Slap-downs by frightened old men didn't follow, so far as I remember; Greta's message hurts more because time has passed, conditions have worsened and the misogynists have grown older still.

                • weka

                  "Slap-downs by frightened old men didn't follow"

                  I bet they were thinking and saying it, just not with force because Severn wasn't a threat. Greta has so much more power and support and they're rightfully afraid.

              • DoU Muddyng and deflecting as usual. Where would you be without this blog to come on and strut your stuff? If you have a better hole, why don't you go to it. You seem like Don Brash's brother, or maybe the vandals tearing down the billboards of Council candidates. Wanting nothing to stand, be noticed and be thought about without your imprimatur stamped on or beside it.

          • greywarshark 6.1.3.1.2

            Edit
            Ardern has a country behind her to represent with conflicting opinions and has to watch her back. She has invested in the future by having a baby and is trying to juggle 1000 balls.

            The kid has a large part of the world behind her and represents them and is very focussed without a spectrum of conflicting opinions behind her. She has yet to take on personal responsibility as an adult for a partner to go into the future with her, and a dependent baby. And is not tasked with the difficulty of leading a country to an ability to a better political approach and so break with its present infantile political process and disgracefully precipitous lack of environmental and social responsibility.

            Greta can speak up and be angry in direct proportion to the personal responsibilities she bears at present. The knowledgable and thoughtful young have always been at the head of a protest because of not having dependents.

          • Sanctuary 6.1.3.1.3

            I don't think the parochial and provincial mindset of a lot New Zealanders mentally equips them to fully grasp exactly how big Jacinda's achievement was post-Christchurch. In OUR country 51 Muslims were slaughtered by a white supremacist who targeted them for their religion. A badly handled reaction would have painted a target on the back on every New Zealander in a Muslim country, and practically guaranteed a spiral of violence with anti-western reprisals.

            Instead of threats, reprisals, violence and more suffering her response got her image projected onto the side of the Burj Khalifa and New Zealand made a hero in the Muslim world – and remember, our country was the scene of a massacre of Muslims! Jacinda drew our community closer together and she has driven efforts since for gun control that have reverberated right to the Trump Whitehouse and is dragging tech companies into agreements to monitor for far-right violence.

            IMHO, just the achievement of protecting New Zealanders everywhere and at the same time diffusing a potential cycle of violence is enough for the peace prize, let alone anything else she symbolises or has done.

            • Anne 6.1.3.1.3.1

              It's interesting that her achievements and the positive effect it had around the world is recognised everywhere except in New Zealand. It does not speak kindly of the average NZer's ability to cut through the chaff and see the enormity of that achievement and what it has meant in terms of safety and protection for everyone – friend and foe alike.

              Sanctuary is right. It speaks to a parochial and provincial mindset in this country that is both embarrassing and shameful.

              "The kid" is only 16. She's an inspiration but she has only just begun her service to mankind.

              If indeed it is a toss up between Jacinda Ardern and Greta Thunberg this time around, then it would seem to me Jacinda is the obvious choice. It would also enable her to build on her achievements thus far, and further her ability to make this world a far better place than it is right now.

              • Stuart Munro.

                I think that if Greta were to be recognized, it should be in the form of a new environmental category for Nobels, the idea being that we're going to need and should recognize more people like her.

              • karol121

                The younger child (Greta) expresses global concerns about climate change, and would probably continue to do so irrespective of further science presented in support of the proposition, or scientific deliberation put forward by many climate change deniers against it.

                On the other hand, the Right Honourable Jacinda Adern appears to express mainly blame, and often in an insulting manner to many of our trade partners in and around the Indo-Pacific, and further afield.

                Sadly, instead of presenting any realistic alternatives to the planet's growing energy needs and population growth, she often simply spews out vitriol in relation to would be, could be and should be on energy management and mismanagement as the case might be.

                With all due respect, to many, she might be considered similar to a dog barking up a tree that is providing refuge to some other animal, but where she hasn't got a hope in Hell of ever identifying it, let alone catching it.

                Many people considered as climate change deniers are getting a general hammering from many moderators on the basis of weight of argument pertaining to global temperature change. That's understandable. But many of them are placed in the same bin as deniers when they put forward the possibility that significant climate change may not entirely be the result of the misuse of relatively high carbon emission/emitting products.

                For the record. From what I glean from various sources, the planet probably is warming at an alarming rate. Coal is grubby, jet aircraft, merchant marine and most industry doesn’t run on electricity. Cars to the supermarket, the footy, the bar-b-q and to drop off and pick up the kids from school can most assuredly run on electricity.

                On the exact science of climate change, is the school really out yet?

                • Anne

                  What a load of tosh you talk karol121.

                  …scientific deliberation put forward by many climate change deniers against it.

                  There is no scientific ‘science’ against CC. There's a lot of pseudo scientific gobbeldy-gook spread by ignorant naysayers and those who are deluded enough to perceive the subject as a political or ideological issue. They are to be derided and treated with contempt.

                  As for the piffle about Jacinda Ardern. Get a dose of reality down your throat.

                  Exact science in relation to meteorology and climatology is still unattainable. Scientists are close to achieving it but there is still a missing link or two in the chain of events that have yet to be discovered. But they know enough to ascertain the increasingly rapid warming of the planet's atmosphere is largely caused by human activity over a long period of time and if we do not turn it around, all living creatures are going to be fried in the not too distant future. End of story.

                  • karol121

                    Sorry Sir/Mam

                    I should have realised that hostility embedded in rant (resultant of commentators failing to read excerpts in appropriate context) is more likely to have a greater impact and make a larger splash than those honestly expressing opinion for debate.

                    Scientific deliberation, as opposed to scientific evidence, pilgrim.

                    "Exact science in relation to meteorology and climatology is still unattainable…".

                    But attainable enough for those with just a basic knowledge in relation to natural short wave/long wave radiation, diurnal and cloud cover variation on local and regional temperature dynamic, heat pools associated with warmer ocean region, and so on.

                    These and other factors not usually considered by many of the proponents who would throttle existing fuel use, and who would simultaneously, progressively, conveniently and selectively, outright exclude other viable alternatives because they do not appear to be politically correct.

                    Wait until they haven't got fuel in their private motor vehicle tanks to drive some long distance to visit granny, attend a job interview, or anything else associated with the comfy mindset, on-demand travel and transport lifestyle choice that New Zealanders have become accustomed to.

                    Forget vacation travel (mind or otherwise), and check in to the latest global population figures. We are just on eight billion. An almost one billion net population increase in just over a decade.

                    Wake up.

                    But both bush scientists, and scientists such as yourself, along with others like-minded could always go whole hog and simply state, using your combined wealth of experience, that deliberation, irrespective of conclusions arrived at, is verboten, and that it is inaccurate based on your own opinion(s).

                    Perhaps I should be forever indebted to you and others like you for your LOUDNESS. And perhaps too, I could put myself forward as your fag, or whipping bitch as the case may be, if it might bring you some emotional satisfaction or pleasure associated with dominance of opinion.

              • New view

                And why is she not appreciated the same in NZ. Because she heads OUR Government that has been too slow doing everything except gun control. Tick. We’ve never had more money and so little to show for it after two years. If you’re living the pain it’s hard to get enthusiastic about international gain.

            • greywarshark 6.1.3.1.3.2

              Sanctuary +100

            • weka 6.1.3.1.3.3

              When you put it like that, it's a compelling argument.

        • In Vino 6.1.3.2

          I'd be very wary of awarding it to 'the kid.' She would be quite likely to hurl it back in their faces, snarling that she wants meaningful actions in the war against inertia regarding Climate Change – not empty, meaningless words of praise. She said as much in the USA, and she would be quite right to my mind.

          • tc 6.1.3.2.1

            I'd pay to watch that ! She could hurl it at the Israeli delegates with the comment ‘keep it as you’ll never win one’

  7. Andre 7

    Even the Repugs in the senate are now saying there was rooskie fuckery in the 2016 election and they're gonna try again in 2020.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/08/intelligence-committee-russia-trump-report-040736

  8. Andre 8

    The flipside of "it's not the crime, it's the cover-up that gets you". If you've got the shamelessness or whatever to brazenly do it all right out in the open, you're much less likely to be held accountable for it.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/10/trumps-brazenness-is-his-greatest-asset/599527/

  9. A in yesterday's Daily Review put up this link for signing a Petition to hold 5G till its effects are well considered and understood to be beneficial. This has not yet been done and the precautionary principle should be followed not a high dive into a shallow pool. They are aiming for 8000 signatures and going well with about 7050. Please consider signing.

    https://www.toko.org.nz/petitions/precautionary-principle-for-5g-in-aotearoa-1

    • Dukeofurl 9.1

      Do you know the differences between 4G and 5G and why you call it a high dive into a shallow pool, when it isnt. Remember the NZ and Europe version isnt the same as US 5G because of the frequencies available

  10. alwyn 10

    Poor old James Shaw. Even those people he probably regarded as his mates are now getting over him and are starting to tell the truth about their views on National media.

    Have a listen to this item from Morning Report today. Activist, and long time senior member of the Green Party, Christine Dann really does seem to have had enough of James Shaw and is quite willing to say so.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018716870/climate-activist-objects-to-rod-carr-appointment

    About 2 minutes in she says, as accurately as I could transcribe it. "I frankly think he (Shaw) is incompetent as a Minister as we know from Statistics already". Ouch.

    Does anyone know whether Christine is still active in the Party? Or has she totally given up on them?

    • Is there a reason those of us with no idea of who Christine Dann is should value her assessment of James Shaw's performance?

      • alwyn 10.1.1

        You are obviously not a Green Party member PM. Or at least if you are you are a newby and you can't have been one for very long.

        I wouldn't think any veteran member of the Green Party would need an explanation.

        • McFlock 10.1.1.1

          That wasn't actually an answer.

          Listened to the interview. She sounds like the sort of person who keeps inventing new direction of complaint when her opinion isn't as important as she thinks it is. Not so much making things up as playing fast and loose with every objection possible, rather than actually presenting a solid argument in favour of what she wants.

          • Dukeofurl 10.1.1.1.1

            yes . Its weird that she is complaining about a minor matter. Does she oppose the very idea of a CCC ?

            Or more likely in the context, Dann herself was expecting such a job , in which case she would have praised the Minister

            • McFlock 10.1.1.1.1.1

              Yes she does oppose it. Not sure about whether it is because it's not an enforcement body or whether she has some other preferred organisation type in mind. Either way I suspect it's a "perfect is the enemy of the good" scenario.

              She also seems to be under the impression that a politician is incapable of knowing with reasonable reliability the general consensus of MPs unless there is a new vote in the House.

              • weka

                "Not sure about whether it is because it's not an enforcement body or whether she has some other preferred organisation type in mind."

                Both was how I heard it in the interview.

                • McFlock

                  I just kind of got the impression from the interview that she was agin it for some reason, so she was coming up with as many reasons as possible to oppose it. Some of which were mediocre at best.

          • ianmac 10.1.1.1.2

            McFlock Were you referring to Dann or alwyn? 🙂

          • weka 10.1.1.1.3

            she sounded primarily pissed off that we're going to end up with something weak, relative to what climate activists submitted on. Which is fair. Not sure why she blames Shaw for that but thought the Stats example was a bit personal.

          • alwyn 10.1.1.1.4

            "That wasn't actually an answer".

            I actually thought it was sufficient given that I had put in my comment the words

            "Activist, and long time senior member of the Green Party".

            I thought that description would have been sufficient description of who she was.

            • McFlock 10.1.1.1.4.1

              Why does that mean we should value her opinion of Shaw's performance? I listen closely to one longstanding Green member, another I couldn't give two shits about their opinions. Their membership tenure doesn't mean shit.

      • veutoviper 10.1.2

        "Is there a reason those of us with no idea of who Christine Dann is should value her assessment of James Shaw's performance …?"

        Well I must say my immediate reaction was to wonder whether Christine was related to the Dann brothers – Corin (RNZ) and Liam (Herald). Still haven't worked that one out but apparently she is a cousin of James Dann's father – James Dann being a leftie blogger who ran for Labour in Ilam in 2014 and also writes for The Spinoff.

        http://www.rdu.org.nz/archives/podcast/nziff-christine-dann-on-no-ordinary-sheila

        Back to Christine, Google initially told me she is a NZ writer based in Canterbury with:

        • a number of books under her belt published through Bridget Williams Books (BWB);
        • a few films etc on environmentalists etc including one on Sheila Natusch via her work with Hugh Macdonald Film company;
        • a blogsite of her own called the Eco Gardener Blog which on a quick read seems worth reading in more depth and which I have now bookmarked for myself. I am sure people like Robert Guyton, WTB etc probably know (or know of) Christine very well.

        https://www.bwb.co.nz/authors/christine-dann

        https://nz.linkedin.com/in/christine-dann-24522332

        https://www.christinedann.org/eco-gardener-blog/

        However, the article below about her on KeyWiki provides much more detail about her long ongoing involvement going right back to the early 1970s as an activist (feminism, environment, etc) including as a member – and a former female co-convenor – of the NZ Green Party.

        https://keywiki.org/Christine_Dann

        So probably the “reason” you referred to in your comment would appear to be ignorance – yours as well as mine until I bothered to find out about Christine.

        Actually my impressions are that your real “reason” was simply to post a snide ad hominim. IMO shallow as well as ignorant.

    • Dukeofurl 10.2

      The census was developed and funded during the previous 4 years of national and its Stats ministers, not the 3 months under Shaw.

      Most telling was the National gave Stats les than half the extra budget in 2017 asked for , to cover the Eathquake problems in wellington and other issues.

      The end result of the under funding was the 'on ground' program on census day had a fraction of the money and staff originally intended

      • alwyn 10.2.1

        "3 months under Shaw."

        Really? Shaw became the Minister on 26 October, 2017. The Census was on 6 March 2018. That is about 4 and a half months by my calculation, rather that your "3 months".

        I understand that Shaw took roughly zero interest in the whole affair. He didn't hold regular meetings on the matter with the HoD. He didn't even bother to stay in the country when it was on.

        However this has been debated before and about all his apologists could manage was that the brilliant statisticians could sort it all out and the rest of us didn't need to worry. Well they didn't sort it out. Meanwhile for about 18 months Shaw continued his litany that everything was wonderful.

        Finally the Government Statistician admitted the truth and is going. Shaw should have joined her exit. What were those words that summed up his performance over the last 18 months? "An orchestrated litany of lies" comes to mind. Now who said that?

        In the meantime I suggest you take it up with Ms. Dann.

        [“I understand that Shaw took roughly zero interest in the whole affair. He didn’t hold regular meetings on the matter with the HoD. He didn’t even bother to stay in the country when it was on.”

        Given it’s all been debated before, you’ll have no trouble providing back up for those three claims (links and quotes). You have until midday tomorrow – weka]

        • weka 10.2.1.1

          mod note for you.

        • alwyn 10.2.1.2

          Well, here is the first one.

          "He didn’t even bother to stay in the country when it was on"

          https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/351722/pm-s-pacific-tour-begins-pacific-reset

          This is a report from 5 March 2018. If you read it you will see that it includes the line "Climate Change Minister James Shaw, who will also be on the trip".

          He was up in the Islands on Census day.

          [your link doesn’t support your assertion that Shaw was out of the country. The onus is on you to back up what you are saying. Stop wasting my time – weka]

          • alwyn 10.2.1.2.1

            And here is a quick note on the other statement

            "He didn’t hold regular meetings on the matter with the HoD"

            You will probably not accept the source but Shaw never denied the claim.

            "Mr Bridges told Morning Report Mr Shaw should have done more to ensure the census was on track and should have asked more questions of Stats NZ, instead of letting things spiral out of control.

            "He was asleep at the wheel. He expressed blind confidence when concerns were raised. To give you the contrast, Maurice Williamson as statistics minister in 2013 for that census had 18 meetings on the census six months prior. Shaw didn't have a single one. He had meetings on other things, measurements of our feelings, wellbeing and the like, but not the core business of the census."

            Shaw was questioned immediately after this and did not deny it. You are aware of course that everyone went very quiet for almost 18 months about the census aren't you?

            https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/396634/botched-census-statistics-minister-asleep-at-the-wheel-says-bridges

            The same thing was brought up in a Parliamentary debate, reported here

            https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/combined/HansDeb_20190820_20190820_24

            Nick Smith brought up exactly the same statement. Shaw, speaking immediately afterward never once denied it. He talked about other things but never ever claimed that any meetings had been held.
            What is the third thing you are interested in?

            [“Shaw was questioned immediately after this and did not deny it.”

            That’s 4 things you now need to back up. You seem to be under the impression that I’m going to do your work for you. I’m not. You have to quote and link support for each of the 4 assertions. You have until midday tomorrow. At that point I’ll be looking up previous bans and moderations. We both know you have a history of telling lies about the Green Party, (and others). I don’t know what you are doing here, but you can either put up the evidence or retract the claims. Read the About/Policy re wasting moderator time – weka]

          • weka 10.2.1.2.2

            mod note above.

          • alwyn 10.2.1.2.3

            The comment is in the linked article about the trip to the islands.
            It is the sixth sentence from the end in the article. It shows up when I search for it.

            I put it in here as a simple cut and paste.

            • weka 10.2.1.2.3.1

              that doesn't show that Shaw was out of the country on Census Day. Shall I just go ahead and ban you now?

              • alwyn

                That Radio New Zealand report was broadcast on 5 March 2018. It lists all the people who were on the week long trip to the Pacific islands. It says that Shaw was on the trip. The Census was on the 6th March so if Shaw had arrived in Samoa on the 5th, and was away for a week he obviously wasn't in New Zealand on the 6th.

                Still, what are facts if you choose to ignore them.

                [you may well be right that Shaw was out of the country on the day, but that link doesn’t show that. It says he will be on the trip (future tense) but doesn’t give the dates. The problem here is that you have a history of lying about the Greens, so the standard of evidence required is high. You also seem to still think I’m going to read and parse linked articles. I’m not. The onus is on you to provide clear back-up in the way I have described and which doesn’t require me to have to do anything other than read your comment. 2 week ban, which is double the last one. Expect exponential increases from now on – weka]

                • Blazer

                  Good work Alwyn .The arrogance of Weka is breathtaking.Greens and Green policy are immune from critique it would seem.

                  • In Vino

                    How bright is the Blaze of your red neck.

                    • Blazer

                      as bright as that ray of sunshine called free speech and the right to hold an alternate viewpoint,without fear or favour.

                    • McFlock

                      Blazer, if you want to make a safe space for Alwyn to spread bullshit, you are free to do so. Nobody else is obliged to do so.

                  • Is that a skull and crossbones on your icon thing Blazer. You are another jolly Roger perhaps.

                    • Blazer

                      In this instance it does not look like Alwyn is spreading b/s at all.

                      If the message is more important than the messenger maybe objective scrutiny is required instead of kneejerk herd mentality.

    • soddenleaf 10.3

      Brown Lee argued for the changes that he now rails against in opposition… …now Shaw pick-up the pieces of cutbacks and changes to the census made by National while in govt. It was called dirty politics.

  11. Incognito 11

    I notice that Alwyn the Shaw Slayer is back from his travels in Fantasia. Predictable and tedious but each to their own. That said, Census 2019 made a strong case for online voting 😉

    • weka 11.1

      Lol, Alwyn might be wetting himself at a greenie calling Shaw incompetent on national radio, but I don't know what rock he's been under if he thinks Green Party members criticising the co-leaders or MPs is anything unusual.

      (don't know if Dann is a current member or not).

  12. A 12

    Just checked this site again and wish I had more $ to prepare. Its gotten worse over the last week 🙁

    Explanation on the site.

    http://didthesystemcollapse.com/

    • Andre 12.1

      We're doomed!

    • alwyn 12.2

      Did you ever read "The Money Game" by Adam Smith?

      Written 50 years ago but still well worth reading. This was the book that first got me interested in trying to find a way to beat the market.

      Never did succeed but it was fun trying.

      https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25706.The_Money_Game

    • Drowsy M. Kram 12.3

      "The eventual endgame is that the price of gold skyrockets and the dollar permanently collapses along with the global banking system and modern society as we know it. Black Friday will be everyday as the masses murder each other for a peach pit. This is sure to happen anytime between now and the end of 2018.

      Don't believe it? We'll find out soon."

      And so we did (find out.) Be prepared, but remember to live a little while preparing.

  13. Brexit heating up. The UK is like a spoiled child, wants the stars though is earth-bound but whines on about its fleeting, unreasonable desires but meanwhile the ground beneath is shifting and soon there will not be a leg to stand on. And the Conservative Party will not do a mea culpa because it is so far up itself that its head is lost to sight, and only its ugly backside is visible.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/400600/brexit-deal-essentially-impossible-no-10-source-says-after-pm-merkel-call

    The groundwork put in over nearly a century settling Europe into a cohesive unit with opportunities to disagree and make some changes is on the way to ruins. But just because some stability has been reached, the UK feels it will take the risk of kicking away the bracing and limiting the reinforcing, and wants to be reborn in another form.

    Frankenstein must be released; for a start they could let Assange go. But arresting him was, I fear, the start of this new Britain, no united about it. The Day of the Trafford? Perhaps the history and rise of Trafford Park will parallel events in England that have emboldened the mini-barons to take their present stance. That the previous PM Cameron is apparently watching with trembling lip.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trafford_Park

    • The poor ordinary UK citizen has a lot to get their head around about Brexit. When they stamped their foot on the floor, metaphorically, they didn't have a list written on a roll of toilet paper for convenience, of all the myriad ways that not being on side with the EU would put them out, literally.

      Posting to EU for Christmas for instance:

      If the UK leaves the EU without a deal on 31st October delivery times for parcels to the EU will be longer, as parcels may need to be checked by customs, and all parcels will be subject to customs charges.

      People who send or recieve parcels to countries outside the EU will know what a faff it is to fill in customs forms and calulate import taxes – even on gifts.

      If you have family and friends in the EU we strongly recommend considering sending your Christmas presents before Halloween to avoid this faff and customs fees.

      https://www.pharosparcel.com/Christmas-Last-Recommended-Posting-Dates

  14. joe90 15

    Erdogan and co are going to exterminate the Kurds.

  15. ianmac 16

    Infometrics rep was on TV1 on 7 sharp just after 7 suggesting that the surplus could be given to NZers as a rebate rather than a tax cut. Is Infometrics neutral?

    • It sounds like it. That idea might come as a freeing up idea for minds too constipated to think of anything but tax cuts. It would win some grudging respect from Nats.

      All beneficiaries could be given $30 on December 1st to go and spend on Christmas presents or get a bill off their neck, and those with long-term debts to be repaid out of meagre income say prior to Labour getting in, could have them wiped before Christmas. That would be a wise thing to take the burden off shoulders and bring some money into shops.

    • Sacha 16.2

      It's just a one-off tax cut. Still buys into the right's framing that individuals always spend money more wisely than public organisations acting on our collective behalf. Thousands of tropical vacations and slate kitchen counters can't be wrong.

      • greywarshark 16.2.1

        Yep. So play the right at their own game. I am sure that Chinese general Sun Tzu would have a brief snippet of wisdom about understanding the opposition and playing them like a harp.

        How about this:

        Goodreads helps you follow your favorite authors. Be the first to learn about new releases

        Sun Tzu Sun Tzu > Quotes

        “All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.”
        ― Sun tzu, The Art of War

        “Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.”
        ― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

        “The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.
        ― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

        “If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”
        ― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

        • Sacha 16.2.1.1

          So play the right at their own game.

          Do not let your enemy dictate the battlefield. Choose the terrain.

          • Karol121 16.2.1.1.1

            Identify your enemy first.

            Then remind yourself that the greatest enemy can be your own mind, lulled in to a sense of false reality or comfortable with misty situational awareness.

            But above all, determine just what it is that you are fighting over.

  16. Pat 17

    "The modern British state has distanced itself from the productive economy and is barely able to take an expert view of the complexities of modern capitalism. This was painfully clear in the Brexit impact sectoral reports the government was forced to publish – they were internet cut-and-paste jobs.

    The state can no longer undertake the radical planning and intervention that might make Brexit work. That would require not only an expert state, but one closely aligned with business. The preparations would by now be very visible at both technical and political levels. But we have none of that"

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/09/brexit-crisis-global-capitalism-britain-place-world

    Sound familiar?

    • Incognito 17.1

      This begs the question as to whether any state is capable of dealing with climate change. And if the answer is negative, what does that mean for the future? And then working backwards, what does it mean for the present, the here and now?

      • Pat 17.1.1

        dosnt bode well, but decades after abdication of responsibility it is unsurprising

      • greywarshark 17.1.2

        …'the State closely aligned with business' would also have to be closely aligned with all sectors of workers, because that is what the state is built on. If not what?

        And what about the workers? And the mothers with their children's future to think about, and indeed all the fertile young people; with women having their monthly egg shedding, and males with their millions of sperm all ready for the primordial ritual of ages when we briefly become gods and make life that brought us here today. What about them? Do we allow a minority of twisted, minds with bloated visions, to screw this world up that is so wonderful and aweful.

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