Open mike 09/01/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 9th, 2013 - 62 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

62 comments on “Open mike 09/01/2013 ”

  1. bad12 1

    Paging Pascal’s bookie,wakey wakey, here’s the reply to your rude interruption of the debate in yesterday’s ‘Open Mike’,

    Note that ALL of the actions in ‘Operation Cyclone’ were the result of secret ‘directive 166’ signed first by President Jimmy Carter and later expanded by President Ronald Reagan,

    Your claims that Arab groups fighting in the Afghan/Soviet war were only funded and armed by Saudi and other Arab states funneled through the Pakistani intelligence service are rather spurious considering the information now available,

    Operation Cyclone- Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia,

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/operation_cyclone

    • bad12 1.1

      Bugger, another link that won’t, don’t know what’s with that, but ask the question of Google ‘US funds for groups fighting in Afghan/Soviet war’ and it should take to the page i tried to link to…

      • bad12 1.1.1

        If your in for a ‘looong read’ which details ALL the players in the Afghan/Soviet war, the personal connections from the CIA to President Ronald Reagan meeting bin Laden’s older brother at the White-House, (along with such niceties as some of the ‘high-ups’ in bin Laden’ various organizations being aided by the CIA to repeatedly gain visa to enter the US despite being on the ‘terrorist watchlist’) there’s this,

        Complete 911 Timeline: The Soviet/Afghan war.

        http://www.historycommons.org>…>Afghanistan>complete911timeline

        If that link fails, try asking google the same question i refer to after my earlier link didn’t work…

        • Pascal's bookie 1.1.1.1

          It’s all pretty weak, and anticipated in my comment.

          I suggest we take this over there, so that it doesn’t clutter this thread, and so that people can see the context.

          http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-07012013/comment-page-1/#comment-570950

          You’ve ignored most of what I said, and have, as predicted, conflated mujaheddin with AQ.

          Here’s your initial; claim:

          You have to get with the real picture, prior to September 11 Al Qaeda were US funded and armed assets during the Soviet/Afghan war

          Operation cyclone was about supporting the mujaheddin, and there is no conclusive evidence that OBL was funded. The implication that he was directly funded by the US is even harder to substantiate, which is probably why you are having such a hard time coming up with any good direct sources or quotes.

          I’ll repost this in the relevant thread.

          • bad12 1.1.1.1.1

            Nope i haven’t confused Al Qaeda and the Mujaheddin at all, they were all inter-connected during the Afghan/Soviet war so what funded the Mujahidden also at the same time funded Al Qaeda,

            Riiiight, perhaps you think i mean that the CIA passed suitcases full of used 20’s directly to bin Laden, spurious, the funding went to the Pakistani intelligence network from the US, (billions of dollars),and was then distributed by the Pakistani intelligence network either directly as arms or laundered through the BCCI bank,

            I suggest you read ‘The complete 911 Timeline: The Soviet-Afghan war which you obviously haven’t otherwise you would not be replying with such lame comments…

            • Pascal's bookie 1.1.1.1.1.1

              I’ve read the timeline. It’s a bit of a curate’s egg to be honest. It often claims certain things to be facts based on not much more than “x reported that unnamed source told him y”, which is a data point to be sure, but absent corroboration, not one that given much weight.*

              It would better if it just left it at the ‘X reports’ and laid of on the implications that Y was true.

              Based on what you’ve written though. I’d suggest you need to do a lot more reading. A good primer is “The Looming Tower”. It really is worth the time and money invested if you want to know what everyone is claiming and how much evidence exists for the claims.

              Nope i haven’t confused Al Qaeda and the Mujaheddin at all, they were all inter-connected during the Afghan/Soviet war so what funded the Mujahidden also at the same time funded Al Qaeda,

              I said you conflated the Mujaheddin and AQ.

              ‘Conflate’, as in, ‘assume that funding one is the same as funding the other’, as in, “so what funded the Mujahidden also at the same time funded Al Qaeda”.

              You claimed AQ was a cia/US asset during the 70s and 80’s war. As suppport for this, the only thing you’ve presented is that the US gave money to the ISI to distribute to Mujaheddin. As I predicted.

              I think you need to read that timeline yourself, pay attention to it this time.

              Now how about justifying your doubts about Assad’s weapons? ( Prediction: ‘The US claimed saddam had WMD in 03 but he didn’t; therefore Assad doesn’t have them now’)

              And tell me about my belief system and how it hasn’t changed; another unsupported statement you claimed to have some knowledge about.

              *(It’s ironic that many of the claims in the timeline rely on a single MSM report of a statement made by an individual, but I guess that because the timeline itself isn’t MSM, you think, well, I don’t know what you think, but it’s amusing none-the-less)

              • bad12

                Yes exactly, during the Afghan/Soviet war Al Qaeda was not so called, what funded the Mujahidden also funded all the Saudi’s and ‘other’s’ who joined the fight,

                If you had of read the timeline you would know that bin Laden spent a large part of that war on the Pakistan side of the border funnelling the Saudi and ‘other’ fighters along with the arms across the border to the two main groups of Mujahidden,

                It is obvious from the Presidential ‘directive 166’ and operation cyclone that the CIA supplied Osama bin Laden with arms and money and just as obvious that as proof of this you would only accept a ‘confession’ from both the CIA and the White-House which obviously will not be forthcoming,

                Carry on with your hilarious belief in the goodness of apple pie and Uncle Sam,

                Next you will be denying that prior to the first bombing of the world trade center bin Laden had a recruitment and funding office operating in New York and other US cities…

                • Pascal's bookie

                  It isn’t ‘obvious’ at all, it’s an assumption based on ‘not much’. What is obvious is that your ‘knowledge’ stems from things like ‘the timeline’ which you seem to put an enormous weight on. Which is fine as far as it goes, but it’s not analysis, and it’s based on superficial stuff. You should try ‘books’.

                  Carry on with your hilarious belief in the goodness of apple pie and Uncle Sam,

                  citation required.

                  My belief is that the US wasn’t in any sort of control of what was going on, especially with regard to OBL. You seem to think that the US is some sort of ghost in the machine, that everything that happens, happens at their direction.

                  You claimed that AQ was a CIA asset in the 80s. That’s just laughable and you’ve provided no evidence for it. As is your claim that AQ are ‘basically mercenaries and guns for hire’.

                  No evidence for doubt about Assad’s wepaons either then?

                  • bad12

                    Yes i should hunt out the book printed by ‘Time’ magazine which says much the same as what i have been saying and much the same as what the timeline also says not to forget the Wikipedia,

                    You are now retreating to a pathetic default position where you put up comments about what you ‘think’ i think,

                    Where have i said that the US were in immediate control of bin Laden??? well i didn’t, not even a slight insinuation,

                    What the CIA was ultimately in control of,(yes along with the Saudi’s) was the money and arms flow to the Pakistani’s who then used bin Laden and others to distribute these arms among the Jihadists,

                    Provided along with these arms and monies was also an ongoing series of satellite images of specific targets which they wished attacked,

                    Were the CIA on the ground at any time in Afghanistan giving orders, not likely their involvement was a supposed secret,(in terms of deniability), why do you think they suffered the Pakistani’s skimming the money supposedly for use in Afghanistan,

                    Untill recently even ‘Presidential directive 166’ was classified information and at the time that directive was issued by Carter it was simply a matter between His administration and the CIA with no over-sight from any other body…

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      “Where have i said that the US were in immediate control of bin Laden??? well i didn’t, not even a slight insinuation,

                      ” He who was captured [Mohamed al-Zawahiri] is just as likely to be in the employ of either the UN or the US via the Saudi Government,

                      You have to get with the real picture, prior to September 11 Al Qaeda were US funded and armed assets during the Soviet/Afghan war,”

                      That’s a pretty clear ‘insinuation’.

                      It doesn’t much look like, ‘Prior to forminh AQ OBL was raising funds and distributing them in Afghanistan and had some links with the ISI, who were also distributing US monies’.

                      But if that’s all you meant by ’employ’ and ‘US funded and armed assets’ and ‘AQ’, then fine I guess.

                    • bad12

                      What you are describing is ‘deniability’, if the US provided the arms, money, and satellite photo’s through a third party to those opposing the Soviet’s in Afghanistan who is funding such opposition, the third party perhaps???…

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      Sigh.

                      Your initial claim was that AQ was a CIA asset, and that based on that Al Zawahiri was likely to be in the employ of the UN, via the Saud regime.

                      That’s ridiculous.

                      Now you are saying that OBL possibly got some money from the ISI before AQ was even formed.

                  • bad12

                    Weapons of mass destruction??? now where have i heard that before…

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      What did you mean by that?

                      Do you doubt he has them? On what grounds?

                      And if you think anyone would need WMD as a Casus belli to go into Syria at the moment, you should read a newspaper from the last year. They could have gone in under ‘ duty to protect’ at any time.

                      You could try evaluating why they haven’t, (hint: it’s a shit fight with no good options) but that might challenge your pre-concieved notions about what’s going on.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Duty to protect? LOL

                      Are these the same caring foreign countries who are supplying arms, financing and logistical support to the Rebels and assorted Salafi jihadists tearing up civilian areas?

                • Pascal's bookie

                  what funded the Mujahidden also funded all the Saudi’s and ‘other’s’ who joined the fight,

                  large parts of your timeline directly contradict this. Much of the US funding was skimmed by the ISI if your timeline is to be taken as gospel. The funding OBL was attracting from wealthy saudis is what carried the war, according to your timeline. But your timeline contradicts itself in several places, doesn’t it?

                  Have you really read it? Closely?

                  • bad12

                    Yeah i have read it close enough to know your talking s**t when you claim that the ‘timeline’ shows that ”the funding bin Laden was attracting from wealthy Saudis is what carried the war”…

              • Rogue Trooper

                notice heaps of “a source within x” in the MSM these days
                sooo, where is the mandate to verify sources?

              • Colonial Viper

                Now how about justifying your doubts about Assad’s weapons? ( Prediction: ‘The US claimed saddam had WMD in 03 but he didn’t; therefore Assad doesn’t have them now’)

                More like – information and claims about middle east WMD in 2003 proved extremely unreliable, information and claims about middle east WMD in 2013 may be equally unreliable.

                • Pascal's bookie

                  But that’s no better.

                  The situation is closer to Iraq in 91. Care to claim he didn’t have WMD then?

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Since 9/11, your example has become less relevant and mine more so. Blame Bush/Cheney for this environment.

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      That makes no sense at all.

                      Saying ‘Bush Cheney’ doesn’t render logical fallacies valid, it just adds another to the mix.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      of course it makes sense. In 1991 WMD was not seen as the all-encompassing rationale for invasion and regime change that it became after 9/11. Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait was the big trigger for allied action in 1991, not WMD.

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      What’s that got to do with doubting whether or not Assad has WMD?

                      I reckon he’s got them, based on the fact he claims to have them, is not a member of any of the relevant treaties banning them, and what we know about his programs.

                      Bad12 seems to think it’s doubtful, but he doesn’t seem to want to talk about it or say why.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      So you accept the point that the environment surrounding the treatment of WMD has moved far on from 1991? Good.

                      Now, if Assad has WMD he’s had them for years and not used them against civilians AFAIK. So now we are back to the post 9/11 WMD pretext for regime change a la Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld.

                      BTW Syria does not have the most powerful WMD in the Middle East not governed by international treaties, by far. But you know this.

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      We’re not ‘back to’ anything.

                      We were talking about whether or not he has them. The reactions to that, do not effect the likelihood of that.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      But the reactions are all important PB. After all, Assad has probably had WMD for many years (and Israel likely has the most powerful WMD of any middle east country). But today, after 9/11 and 2003, it’s become an effective pretext for waging war. A true, presumptive, convenient, casus belli a la Iraq.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      By the way, in todays stupid languaging a 100 year old chlorine, mustard gas or phosgene shell would be correctly considered “WMD”. Hopeless.

    • Rogue Trooper 1.2

      johnny boy’s gotta lotta ‘D’s on his report card, Frankly Speaking 🙁

  2. stever 2

    Great quote from Sarah Teather in the UK Parliament during a debate on social security reforms…so applicable here too…and further evidence of the Crosby technique that they have just bought into there…so familiar!

    “In an atmosphere of uncertainty and limited resources, where every family in this country is struggling, there is a natural tendency to try and find someone to blame for our own woes. A fissure already exists between the working and non-working poor. Hammering on that faultline with the language of shirkers and strivers will have long-term impacts on public attitudes, on attitudes of one neighbour against another. It will make society less generous, less sympathetic, less able to co-operate. The marginalisation of the undeserving poor will place one group outwith society entirely over time and leave them less able to make choices about their own lives and less able to participate. That fragmentation of society is, for me, the spectre of broken Britain and it is one that we should worry about hastening at our peril.”

    • wyndham 2.1

      The beneficiary painting the roof couldn’t be a better example of ‘A fissure already exists between the working and non-working poor.’

      • bad12 2.1.1

        Unfortunately all across the Western World the same template of denigration is being applied by politicians,

        Unemployment is simply a reflection of the success or FAILURE of the economic ism adhered to by the various political factions, rather than address the FAILURE of such policy they choose to address negatively the visible manifestation of the FAILURE, the unemployed,

        Economically there’s a wealth transfer occurring which is at the heart of the unemployment numbers where as the 1%ers gather unto themselves greater amounts of ‘wealth’ the middle classes who act as (sometimes unwitting), agents of that wealth transfer are protected by the political system directly favoring one class over another,

        Symptoms of this overt favoring of the middle classes being, interest free student loans, working for families tax credits, tax cuts, so called ma and pa asset sales, and ‘plans’ to shoe horn those who can afford to service a 300+ thousand dollar mortgage into home ownership,

        The only one of such policies that i would qualify as being based upon ‘NEED’ would be the interest free student loans,

        Having said that, education should be funded from ‘Social Credit’ and not from the taxpayer base which is simply a means by which education is allowed to be rationed among the population…

        • North 2.1.1.1

          And how the lying bastard politicians shamelessly beat that drum to divide society……..their primary purpose being to win and lengthen tenure at the public trough. All the while loftily proclaiming how decent-values stuffed they are and how much they care. They’re scum really.

          And how the majority of the players in the embedded media, self-important oracles along for the ride, delightedly, effervescently often, report on how well the drum is beaten…….on how well the “game” is played.

          Damn…….there are even knighthoods in the offing.

          • tc 2.1.1.1.1

            +1 and the current Labour caucus is playing that tune to the delight of the hollowmen. This theme will get rolled out against then in 2014.

            How many troughers do you see in the likes of Ducky, Kingy, etc now all been there done that, tried and failed again yet not standing aside for the fresh blood.

    • The basic problem is that to get most people to understand the intricacies of the Global Financial Crisis and the wholesale looting of various countries treasuries by the rich is too difficult yet people need someone to blame. Western media continuously plays up the desirability of being rich and consuming excessively so the wealthy cannot be attacked. And since the demise of the Soviet Union communists cannot be blamed, even though the Tea Party delusionally thinks they can.

      So who do we have left? Beneficiaries are the easiest to bash. There is always one individual amongst a group of hundreds of thousands that can be accused of some sort of shirking behaviour and then they can be blamed for all our problems.

      People need simple targets.

      • Colonial Viper 2.2.1

        I agree with the gist of this sentiment, however it’s not that pointing out the bad guys is hard, they are the Douglas/Richardson/Fay/Richwhite/Key crowd.

        It’s that it’s impossible to point to any good guys around who are presenting Real Alternatives.

        • Draco T Bastard 2.2.1.1

          +1

          Need to do more than point out the Bad guys as well – need to point out that the entire socio-economic system is a failure.

    • Morrissey 2.3

      Here’s film director Ken Loach making the same point, devastatingly, on BBC television, goading the leonine Thatcher henchman Michael Heseltine into a display of apoplectic fury…
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6OLguh7_P8

      • bad12 2.3.1

        He makes the good point that i often make, here in New Zealand some 7 billion dollars of owed tax is either ‘avoided’ or evaded’ annually,

        If that ‘avoidance’ were to be classes as criminal evasion and effort brought to bear on actually collecting this owed taxation Governments wouldn’t be scrabbling round looking to point the finger of blame at the unemployed who have no means of avoiding such tax, for their, (Governments), stupid mismanagement of the economy,

        The same excuse of course will be trotted out here as that Tory piece of s**t trotted out in the Utube vid, ”Oh we can’t expect the rich to pay all the tax they owe, they will en masse take all their wealth and flee the country”,

        Luckily i don’t get to sit in the same room as any of these ‘people’, hearing such speech drives me into spasms of violent thought…

  3. “The basic problem is that to get most people to understand the intricacies of the Global Financial Crisis and the wholesale looting of various countries treasuries by the rich is too difficult”

    Without wanting to sound self serving, that’s an added bonus to my fight to save stan heather park in Hamilton West. Not only would it safeguard a community facility, but give the local people a clear example of wealth transfer in their backyards. The ideas I’ve sent to various parties and organisations and all without reply, show how this local issue could set a national agenda for 2014. It’s so simple, I can’t understand why no-one’s doing it already.
    Show the people the fight, teach them how to win it, help them to victory. Whoever does that could take the 6 west ward councillors in the 2013 local elections, and perhaps a good shot at forcing a cup of tea from sue moroney in 2014.
    4-10k votes elected 6 ward wallies. Our three suburbs could do that easy.

    But nope, not going to happen.

    • Colonial Viper 3.1

      Hi Al1en. Very nice. A concrete in your face issue used as a demonstrator for the values we are talking about. It allows those in the neighbourhood to inquire further into political economics, without having to start a postgrad degree in the subject.

      I’d be very interested in reading some more detail on your ideas – would you please forward to lee.adama@gmx.com? (I will reply via the Std if that’s OK).

      • The Al1en 3.1.1

        No worries, though you’ll have to wade through my pigeon English to get there.

        The choice here is more money to a developer or free food for the hungry.
        \Doesn’t get more in your face and direct than that. Classic good v evil clash.
        Beat them here over a local issue, and who knows what a nationwide launch could achieve?
        I’d go at least 5% with the right personnel.

        I’ll send you something later tonight.
        Thanks.

    • tc 3.2

      Nice work, go hard.
      How can Hardaker claim “”It’s good news for the city as it will be open to the public.” when it’s being turned from park into developed suburbia.

      Some mates of hamilton rugby no doubt will be profiting nicely as it’s now reported as sold. Historically wouldn’t this have been gifted to them like Ellerslie racecouse was so sort of like selling on your inheritance.

      How the F did such a booming city get into such a mess TA ? The growth in/around Te Rapa with suburbia and te Awa /the base etc, what happened.

      • The Al1en 3.2.1

        Hardaker was on TV (campbell live) when the Chiefs were winning something at last, extolling how Hamilton is a rugby town and how she’s right behind Hamilton rugby. Hypocrite politicians, I shit them.

        Asked all those questions, got no answers. The head of the Hamilton rugby union couldn’t ‘remember’ the name of the secret developer that just stumped up $2m, six months before the new district plan is live.
        If it smells, looks and tastes like shit, it usually is.

        If the rezoning is refused, then the market price drops drastically. Worthless to a developer, priceless to a trust run market garden.
        Just got to announce a better use for the land than a money maker for the 1% and raise the cash by donation and all sales of my anonymous cd.
        Being part of the 99% means there’s more of us than them, right? Makes it won before it even starts. 😆

    • millsy 3.3

      Councils all over the country are flogging off open spaces and community facilities like they are going out of fashion.

  4. Morrissey 4

    “Some wonderful responses to our Chatham Oi-lands story!”
    Summer Noelle doggedly keeping it light

    I’ve still had no reply from Noelle McCarthy, following her timid handling yesterday of the American writer Mark Bowden….
    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-08012013/comment-page-1/#comment-570645

    She did, however, have time to read out several emails, all of them whimsical and non-threatening comments about the “Chatham Oi-lands.”

    Obviously there is no room on “Summer Noelle” for anything resembling debate, let alone dissent. Maybe she thinks she’s still working at NewstalkZB.

    • tc 4.1

      RNZ is turning into ZB under Griffin. She got caught out for plagarism from memory last time around.

      Wouldn’t summer be a good time to give some fresh local talent some airtime rather than this recycled common garden variety hack.

      • Morrissey 4.1.1

        Does Richard Griffin actually have an influence on the programming now? That prospect is almost too depressing to contemplate.

      • millsy 4.1.2

        Perhaps RNZ should turn over its summer air time to the Access radio/student radio stations…

  5. Rogue Trooper 5

    “New Zealand’s status as a test-playing cricket nation in question; lack of depth, or out of our depth”

    is Hell other people?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Paul_Sartre
    is literatures’ function ultimately a bourgeois substitute for real “authentic” commitment in the world?

    beavering on, (more on Nausea to follow)

    Best Practice Dec.12: Did you know that it is estimated by 2026 20,000 NZers will require palliative care to rest in peace?
    Pain-the most prevalent symptom preceding all deaths occurring in palliative care settings on NZ

    Opioids, also indicated for the treatment of breathlessnes in p.c, sigh, deep breath,

    Pain Assessment-STAS-Support Team Assessment Schedule
    or,
    PACSLAC for seniors

    “Total Pain”-a subjective experience, influenced by
    physical-psychological-social-spiritual elemants
    threshold may be raised through positive influences
    -improved sleep, companionship, sympathy,sic (empathy), fear reduction
    expression of negative emotions valid: REAL frustrations exist about bureaucracy, diagnostic delays, lack of resources and treatment failure.

    1. Morphine the most extensively studied, widely available and commonly used opioid in p.c
    -active opioid metabolites can accumulate through impairments
    -opioid toxicity; myoclonic spasms, excessive sedation, confusion, restlessness, hallucination

    2.Oral oxy-codone (that’s slipped into NZ in recent times; severely abused in the U.S)

    3. Fentanyl

    Adjuvant analgesics
    Indications
    neuropathic- tri-cyclics, anti-epileptics
    bone pain- NSAIDS
    skeletal muscle spasm- relaxants, benzos etc
    smooth muscle spasm- anti-cholinergics, anti-muscurinics
    intra-cranial pressure
    liver capsule stretch
    tenesmus (gotta go) – steroids

    Adversities;
    constipation expected
    Nausea-distressing yet often transitory; trial various anti-emetics
    -Haloperidol if chemo-receptor trigger zone induced
    -Metoclopramide if reduced G.I motility
    -Cyclizine-if vestibular stimulation
    Drowsiness-often transitory,resolved over a period of days; persistence may indicate toxicity

    11.8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. By faith he made his home in the promised land. (13, admittedly, we are aliens and strangers upon the earth)

    Surah 13: 32 Mocked were many Messengers
    Before thee: but I granted
    Respite to the Unbelievers
    And finally I punished them:
    Then how terrible was My requital!

    Pr.11.6

    A kindhearted woman gains respect, but ruthless men gain only wealth.

    (I have never been interested in the work of sacha baron cohen, his cousin Simon, yes; and Seinfeld? Woody Allen on a donut, such self-obsessed characters about nothing imo)

    These are the Gangs from New York I like
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs_of_New_York:_Music_from_the_Miramax_Motion_Picture

    -Hawkeye

  6. Rogue Trooper 6

    In the year following the theft of the Mona Lisa in 1911 by Vincenzo Peruggia more people went to gaze at the empty space than in the year before: Presence (seen the art work on the cover) Absence

    “We are in a predominantly mechanical, materialistic phase that has led to a desacralizing of the cosmos. This may yet have disastrous ecological consequences, given the predictions of climate science, though the worst may be abated by recovering the “ancient ideas of sacred groves or holy springs”, The deep truth about matter which neither Descartes or Newton realized, is that over the course of four billion years, molten rocks transformed themselves into monarch butterflies,blue herons and the exalted music of Mozart (Rock me Amadeus) http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/amadeus/. Ignorant of this stupendous process (stupidly) we fell into the fantasy that our role here was to reign (Objectively) over matter.

    -Journey of the Universe; Brian Swimme (comologist) and Mary Tucker (ecologist)

    “We have to admit the disastrous course of Business as usual; Rather, invest in scientific research, including in the Social Sciences, to find all possible openings (any port in a storm); agree to a great extent on what can be done; negotiate in Good Faith as to who will do what; and stick with the overall plan through thick and thin, despite inevitable short-term crises”

    “Earth is negotiating with us right now and waiting patiently-cometh the hour, cometh the political Leadership?-for a Good Faith reply. If humans don’t make it, the universe has plenty of time and space to evolve intelligence again, yet humanity will be sloughed off as if we had never been”

    -Joel Primack (physicist) and Nancy Abrams (philosopher)

    Not concluding that everyone will agree on what is “sacred”
    http://www.literaryreview.co.uk/gray_12_10.html
    one conclusion is that sacred values lie at the heart of 21st century conflicts. Further,until they are recognized as such, these conflicts will Escalate and Perpetuate, not be won or lessened.
    (reasearch has shown that “Palestinian hard-liners were more willing to recognize the right of Israel to exist, if the Israelis apologized for suffering caused to Palestinians civilians in the 1948 war) -Vernon

    Why is our century worse than any other?
    Is it that in the stupor of fear and grief
    It has plunged it’s fingers in the blackest ulcer,
    Yet cannot bring relief?

    Westward the sun is dropping,
    And the roofs of towns are dropping in it’s light.
    Already death is chalking doors with crosses
    And calling the ravens and the ravens are in flight.

    -Anna Akhmatova

    Karl Marx was playing a parlour game
    with his daughters. To their question
    What is the quality one should most abhor?
    he wrote; Servility.

    This was found-a scrap of paper
    amongst the family albums and letters;
    it is the most essential of all
    the Complete Works.

    -Robert Gray

    It takes much time to kill a tree

    The hand that signed the paper felled a city;
    Five sovereign fingers taxed the breath,
    Doubled the globe of dead and halved a country;
    These five kings did a king to death.

    -Dylan

  7. Chris 7

    Apologies if this has already been posted, but here is a very interesting article about the effects of austerity:

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/when-a-guess-is-as-good-as-a-forecast-20130108-2cep8.html

    Don’t know how to embed the link.

    Also as an aside is there any chance that someone could have got my email address from here to add me on facebook? I got a random friend request from someone with some high profile left leaning friends and cannot figure out why they would have added me. I realise more than likely it was just someone adding me by accident, but thought I would check if anyone else had got this or there was any chance it came from here.

    • McFlock 7.1

      easiest way is to fb message the person and ask.

      • Chris 7.1.1

        Yeah I have but they haven’t responded and it’s not anywhere near important enough for me to follow up with another message.

        • McFlock 7.1.1.1

          I think it would be highly unlikely it came from here.

          Might be a fb group or like you made a while ago?

          The other option is that it’s someone you did actually meet ages ago and forgot about – happened to me a couple of times. Turned out they knew me from years back.

  8. Rogue Trooper 8

    Dom
    -Treaty spawns a Legion of lawyers
    -thankfully settlements have risen
    yet,
    -numbers of lawyers willing to “represent” falling
    -$$$ stacked in govts court

    -HNZ earthquake-prone stocks unsettling people

    -17 Billion bicycles, I mean planets above Beijing
    – 1 Trillion dollar platinum Federal coin
    -“silliness before disaster”-Krugman
    -(accounting manoeuvres only deploy ’til February 😉

    -The Biggest Bank in The Whole Wide World, China’s ICBC growing a branch in NZ
    -“primed” to launch-Amanda Lu
    -unlikely to need to stop at red lights-Claire Matthews

    meanwhile, back in the kitchen (Aus “dome of heat”)
    -Bureau of Meteorology’s temperature forecast chart adds Deep Purple (Oh my love it’s a long way, where you’re from it’s a long way) and Pink to spectrum and extend range to 54 Degrees C
    (all time record high, 50.7 C in 1960 at Oodnadatta)

    Cobra II
    http://books.google.co.nz/books/about/Cobra_II.html?id=CyuUZlAFXHUC&redir_esc=y
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/09/25/the-endgame-is-a-well-researched-highly-critical-look-at-u-s-policy-in-iraq.html
    The End Game

    those who give have all things, those who withhold, nothing.

    -Hindu proverb (sounds a little like Mana)

  9. xtasy 9

    HALLO ALL!

    Are you on a benefit, scared of facing life off the benefit, have you been shafted on the benefit, are you perhaps even informed and know that a nasty piece of legislation called the “Social Security (Benefit Categories and Work Focus) Amendment Bill” is right before Parliament now, being looked at by the Social Services Committee, likely to hear more submissions soon???

    Better WAKE up, LEARN what the hell goes down and on, have a read of the bill on Parliament’s website, or on the sites found under following links:

    http://www.legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2012/0067/latest/DLM4542304.html

    http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Legislation/Bills/5/2/a/00DBHOH_BILL11634_1-Social-Security-Benefit-Categories-and-Work-Focus.htm

    http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/SC/Documents/Evidence/?Custom=00DBHOH_BILL11634_1

    I get it, your parents are rich, your parents are secure middle class, you have some savings, you studied and will get a good and well-paying job, if need be in Australia, you will “never” have to rely on the dole or any other benefit, as you will be fit and healthy for ALL times, right?!

    Learn the bloody lessons of live, open your lazy ears and eyes, take a look, have a read, as this is extremely important. No, it will not just “deal to” so-called “bludgers”, “breeding solo mums” and “maligners” on sick and invalid’s benefits. The whole system will change, it will get REAL mean and you will in most cases be affected at one or another time in YOUR bloody life, dear reader.

    Now the Ministry of Social (Under) Development, of social exclusion, of meanness, under the bullying Minister in charge, has launched a bloody SURVEY, to serve it’s cause and get the ignorant, blue eyed, naive and good-believing folk out there to offer ideas, suggestions and feed-back on the reforms, solely designed to “assist” the poor and so much neglected sick, injured and disabled into real good value work!?

    Have a look at this piece:
    http://www.msd.govt.nz/about-msd-and-our-work/work-programmes/welfare-reform/july-2013/ill-health-disability-feedback.html

    Propaganda from and for the bottom level of inputters has never been any “sweeter”, not even Master demagogues like Goebbels, Mussolini and Hitler would have thought of such a smart scheme to “involve” all those so “concerned”.

    So there you are, able to give your “input”. I am sure Farrar, Whale soil and whatever kinds of their following have already been online day and night, to offer their “advice” and support to MSD.

    So dear Standardistas, get off your bloody arses, go there, and deliver also your, and your valued friend’s advice, suggestions and feedback now. It must be done, or the masters of demagoguery will win.

    Get onto it, tell them what you think and feel on the MSD website, NOW, please!!!

  10. David H 10

    Sorry to bother you Lyn but I keep getting an unresponsive script on the pages in here, is it me or you?

    Error is.

    Script: http://s0.wp.com/wp-content/js/devicepx-jetpack.js?ver=201302:22

    Cheers

    • lprent 10.1

      Probably Me. Looking at a cache setting and I can only really test it on the live site (so I do it late at night).

      But maybe not that error is from wordpress.com… A javascript file that isn’t getting sent?

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  • Those of a certain vintage in this country will recognise that as a paraphrasing of the much celebrated Paul Holmes sign-off from his nightly current affairs show, yes, he of the “cheekie darkie” comment infamy (that one aimed at then-UN Chief Kofi Annan, and if unfamiliar with what followed in ...
    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    6 days ago
  • Are You Missing Kindness Yet?
    In my last newsletter I asked how is Luxon this out of touch? Many of you, quite wisely, don’t do the Twitter thing so I thought I’d share a few of the comments from the cross section of humanity that you encounter there.The comment from Clandesdiner@boglyboohoo, not sure if that’s ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    7 days ago
  • How NZ and Taiwan differ in disaster preparedness
    Peter Dunne writes –  Taiwan and New Zealand are two small island states with much in common. Both are vibrant, independent democracies, living in the shadow of an overbearing neighbour. (Admittedly, Taiwan’s overbearing neighbour has far more aggressive tendencies than our at-times overbearing neighbour!) There is a strong ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    7 days ago
  • Why Shane Jones sunk the Kermadecs Marine Sanctuary
    Bryce Edwards writes – Did vested interests prevent New Zealand from establishing a world-leading environmental marine reserve? There are strong signs that in killing off the proposal for a Kermadec Islands Marine Sanctuary, Shane Jones has been doing the bidding of several industries and groups that he’s closely ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    7 days ago
  • Nearly a month of it
    Hello! There has not been an omnibus for about three weeks because covid and bereavement got in the way.Here’s what you may have missed if you’re not a daily reader.Life’s Little Victories - I think I’ve dodged COVIDTwo Bar Blues - I haven’t Relentlessly Negative - Things seem to be ...
    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    1 week ago
  • Coastal court action flies under the radar
    Graham Adams says NZ’s coastline may end up under iwi control. Former Attorney-General and Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations Chris Finlayson is known for his forthright and sometimes combative language. In 2022, in discussing opposition to co-governance, he referred to “the sour right” and “the KKK brigade”. Last week, in ...
    Point of OrderBy gadams1000
    1 week ago
  • Does a Fiscal Debt Target Make Sense?
    Do we treat the government finances with the common sense that household’s manage theirs?It is a commonly held view that we should treat the government as if it is a prudent household. We don’t when it comes to its debt. Currently the government says it wants to constrain its net ...
    PunditBy Brian Easton
    1 week ago
  • Bryce Edwards: Why Shane Jones sunk the Kermadecs Marine Sanctuary
    Did vested interests prevent New Zealand from establishing a world-leading environmental marine reserve? There are strong signs that in killing off the proposal for a Kermadec Islands Marine Sanctuary, Shane Jones has been doing the bidding of several industries and groups that he’s closely connected with. As Oceans and Fisheries ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: Spite destroys success
    The clean car discount was a real policy success in pushing electrification of transport. It worked so well that EV adoption was running five years ahead of the Climate Commission's targets, giving us a real shot at decarbonising light transport. National killed it out of pure spite. And as expected, ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago

  • Huge interest in Government’s infrastructure plans
    Hundreds of people in little over a week have turned out in Northland to hear Regional Development Minister Shane Jones speak about plans for boosting the regional economy through infrastructure. About 200 people from the infrastructure and associated sectors attended an event headlined by Mr Jones in Whangarei today. Last ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    14 hours ago
  • Health Minister thanks outgoing Health New Zealand Chair
    Health Minister Dr Shane Reti has today thanked outgoing Health New Zealand – Te Whatu Ora Chair Dame Karen Poutasi for her service on the Board.   “Dame Karen tendered her resignation as Chair and as a member of the Board today,” says Dr Reti.  “I have asked her to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    15 hours ago
  • Roads of National Significance planning underway
    The NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) has signalled their proposed delivery approach for the Government’s 15 Roads of National Significance (RoNS), with the release of the State Highway Investment Proposal (SHIP) today, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.  “Boosting economic growth and productivity is a key part of the Government’s plan to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    18 hours ago
  • Navigating an unstable global environment
    New Zealand is renewing its connections with a world facing urgent challenges by pursuing an active, energetic foreign policy, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says.   “Our country faces the most unstable global environment in decades,” Mr Peters says at the conclusion of two weeks of engagements in Egypt, Europe and the United States.    “We cannot afford to sit back in splendid ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    18 hours ago
  • NZ welcomes Australian Governor-General
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has announced the Australian Governor-General, His Excellency General The Honourable David Hurley and his wife Her Excellency Mrs Linda Hurley, will make a State visit to New Zealand from Tuesday 16 April to Thursday 18 April. The visit reciprocates the State visit of former Governor-General Dame Patsy Reddy ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    19 hours ago
  • Pseudoephedrine back on shelves for Winter
    Associate Health Minister David Seymour has announced that Medsafe has approved 11 cold and flu medicines containing pseudoephedrine. Pharmaceutical suppliers have indicated they may be able to supply the first products in June. “This is much earlier than the original expectation of medicines being available by 2025. The Government recognised ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    20 hours ago
  • NZ and the US: an ever closer partnership
    New Zealand and the United States have recommitted to their strategic partnership in Washington DC today, pledging to work ever more closely together in support of shared values and interests, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says.    “The strategic environment that New Zealand and the United States face is considerably more ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Joint US and NZ declaration
    April 11, 2024 Joint Declaration by United States Secretary of State the Honorable Antony J. Blinken and New Zealand Minister of Foreign Affairs the Right Honourable Winston Peters We met today in Washington, D.C. to recommit to the historic partnership between our two countries and the principles that underpin it—rule ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • NZ and US to undertake further practical Pacific cooperation
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced further New Zealand cooperation with the United States in the Pacific Islands region through $16.4 million in funding for initiatives in digital connectivity and oceans and fisheries research.   “New Zealand can achieve more in the Pacific if we work together more urgently and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Government redress for Te Korowai o Wainuiārua
    The Government is continuing the bipartisan effort to restore its relationship with iwi as the Te Korowai o Wainuiārua Claims Settlement Bill passed its first reading in Parliament today, says Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith. “Historical grievances of Te Korowai o Wainuiārua relate to 19th century warfare, land purchased or taken ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Focus on outstanding minerals permit applications
    New Zealand Petroleum and Minerals is working to resolve almost 150 outstanding minerals permit applications by the end of the financial year, enabling valuable mining activity and signalling to the sector that New Zealand is open for business, Resources Minister Shane Jones says.  “While there are no set timeframes for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Applications open for NZ-Ireland Research Call
    The New Zealand and Irish governments have today announced that applications for the 2024 New Zealand-Ireland Joint Research Call on Agriculture and Climate Change are now open. This is the third research call in the three-year Joint Research Initiative pilot launched in 2022 by the Ministry for Primary Industries and Ireland’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Tenancy rules changes to improve rental market
    The coalition Government has today announced changes to the Residential Tenancies Act to encourage landlords back to the rental property market, says Housing Minister Chris Bishop. “The previous Government waged a war on landlords. Many landlords told us this caused them to exit the rental market altogether. It caused worse ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Boosting NZ’s trade and agricultural relationship with China
    Trade and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay will visit China next week, to strengthen relationships, support Kiwi exporters and promote New Zealand businesses on the world stage. “China is one of New Zealand’s most significant trade and economic relationships and remains an important destination for New Zealand’s products, accounting for nearly 22 per cent of our good and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Freshwater farm plan systems to be improved
    The coalition Government intends to improve freshwater farm plans so that they are more cost-effective and practical for farmers, Associate Environment Minister Andrew Hoggard and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay have announced. “A fit-for-purpose freshwater farm plan system will enable farmers and growers to find the right solutions for their farm ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • New Fast Track Projects advisory group named
    The coalition Government has today announced the expert advisory group who will provide independent recommendations to Ministers on projects to be included in the Fast Track Approvals Bill, say RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop and Regional Development Minister Shane Jones. “Our Fast Track Approval process will make it easier and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Pacific and Gaza focus of UN talks
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters says his official talks with the United Nations Secretary-General Antonio Guterres in New York today focused on a shared commitment to partnering with the Pacific Islands region and a common concern about the humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza.    “Small states in the Pacific rely on collective ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Government honours Taranaki Maunga deal
    The Government is honouring commitments made to Taranaki iwi with the Te Pire Whakatupua mō Te Kāhui Tupua/Taranaki Maunga Collective Redress Bill passing its first reading Parliament today, Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “This Bill addresses the commitment the Crown made to the eight iwi of Taranaki to negotiate ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Enhanced partnership to reduce agricultural emissions
    The Government and four further companies are together committing an additional $18 million towards AgriZeroNZ to boost New Zealand’s efforts to reduce agricultural emissions. Agriculture Minister Todd McClay says the strength of the New Zealand economy relies on us getting effective and affordable emission reduction solutions for New Zealand. “The ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • 110km/h limit proposed for Kāpiti Expressway
    Transport Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed news the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) will begin consultation this month on raising speed limits for the Kāpiti Expressway to 110km/h. “Boosting economic growth and productivity is a key part of the Government’s plan to rebuild the economy and this proposal supports that outcome ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • New Zealand Biosecurity Awards – Winners announced
    Two New Zealanders who’ve used their unique skills to help fight the exotic caulerpa seaweed are this year’s Biosecurity Awards Supreme Winners, says Biosecurity Minister Andrew Hoggard. “Strong biosecurity is vital and underpins the whole New Zealand economy and our native flora and fauna. These awards celebrate all those in ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Attendance action plan to lift student attendance rates
    The Government is taking action to address the truancy crisis and raise attendance by delivering the attendance action plan, Associate Education Minister David Seymour announced today.   New Zealand attendance rates are low by national and international standards. Regular attendance, defined as being in school over 90 per cent of the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • World must act to halt Gaza catastrophe – Peters
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has told the United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) in New York today that an immediate ceasefire is needed in Gaza to halt the ongoing humanitarian catastrophe.    “Palestinian civilians continue to bear the brunt of Israel’s military actions,” Mr Peters said in his speech to a ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Speech to United Nations General Assembly: 66th plenary meeting, 78th session
    Mr President,   The situation in Gaza is an utter catastrophe.   New Zealand condemns Hamas for its heinous terrorist attacks on 7 October and since, including its barbaric violations of women and children. All of us here must demand that Hamas release all remaining hostages immediately.   At the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Government woolshed roadshow kicks off
    Today the Government Agriculture Ministers started their national woolshed roadshow, kicking off in the Wairarapa. Agriculture Minister Todd McClay said it has been a tough time for farmers over the past few years. The sector has faced high domestic inflation rates, high interest rates, adverse weather events, and increasing farm ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • PM heads to Singapore, Thailand, and Philippines
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon will travel to Singapore, Thailand and the Philippines this week (April 14-20), along with a senior business delegation, signalling the Government’s commitment to deepen New Zealand’s international engagement, especially our relationships in South East Asia. “South East Asia is a region that is more crucial than ever to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Prime Minister launches Government Targets
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has announced further steps to get New Zealand back on track, launching nine ambitious Government Targets to help improve the lives of New Zealanders. “Our Government has a plan that is focused on three key promises we made to New Zealanders – to rebuild the economy, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Natural hydrogen resource should be free of Treaty claims entanglement
    Natural hydrogen could be a game-changing new source of energy for New Zealand but it is essential it is treated as a critical development that benefits all New Zealanders, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones is seeking to give regulatory certainty for those keen to develop natural, or geological, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Government responds to unsustainable net migration
    ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • New Zealand on stage at global Space Symposium
    Space Minister Judith Collins will speak at the Space Symposium in the United States next week, promoting New Zealand’s rapidly growing place in the sector as we work to rebuild the economy. “As one of the largest global space events, attended by more than 10,000 business and government representatives from ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • $4.9m project completed with marae reopening
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    7 days ago
  • Pure Tūroa Limited to operate Tūroa ski field
    Ko Tahuarangi te waka – Tahuarangi is the ancestral vessel Ko Rangitukutuku te aho – Rangitukutuku is the fishing line Ko Pikimairawea te matau – Pikimairawea is the hook Ko Hāhā te Whenua te ika kei rō-wai – Hāhā te whenua is the fish (of Māui) whilst under the ocean ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Methane targets to be independently reviewed
    Rebuilding New Zealand’s economy will rely on the valuable agricultural sector working sustainably towards our climate change goals.  Today, the Climate Change and Agriculture Ministers announced that an independent panel of experts will review agricultural biogenic methane science and targets for consistency with no additional warming. Agriculture Minister Todd McClay ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • NZ and Nordics: likeminded partners
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • First New Zealand C-130J Hercules takes flight
    The first New Zealand C-130J Hercules to come off the production line in the United States has successfully completed its first test flights, Defence Minister Judith Collins announced today. “These successful flights are a significant milestone for the New Zealand Defence Force, bringing this once-in-a-generation renewal of a critical airlift ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Government to rephase NCEA Change Programme
      The coalition Government is making significant changes to the NCEA Change Programme, delaying the implementation by two years, Minister of Education Erica Stanford announced today. “Ensuring New Zealand’s curriculum is world leading is a vital part of the Government’s plan to deliver better public services and ensure all students ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • New Ngāpuhi investment fund Chair appointed
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Education should be prioritised ahead of protesting
    Students should be in school and learning instead of protesting during school hours, Associate Education Minister David Seymour says. “If students feel strongly about sending a message, they could have marched on Tuesday when there was a nationwide teacher only day, or during the upcoming school holidays. It has become ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Delivering on Local Water Done Well
    Cabinet has agreed on key steps to implement Local Water Done Well, the Coalition Government’s plan for financially sustainable locally delivered water infrastructure and services, Local Government Minister Simeon Brown says.  "Councils and voters resoundingly rejected Labour’s expensive and bureaucratic Three Waters regime, and earlier this year the Coalition Government ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Peters to visit New York, Washington D.C.
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters will engage with high-level United States Government and United Nations officials in the United States next week (6-12 April).    The visit, with programmes in New York and Washington D.C., will focus on major global and regional security challenges and includes meetings with US Secretary of ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

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