Open mike 10/04/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, April 10th, 2019 - 159 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

159 comments on “Open mike 10/04/2019”

  1. WeTheBleeple 1

    I really appreciate the efforts of groups involved in pointing out corporate offenders. Then, I can actively avoid giving them my money. A whitewash doesn’t cut it, You exploit children, dead to me.

    While, on the other hand, companies who take consideration of their workforce and environment will find customers actively seeking them out.

    Who approved the new restaurant while its founder was on trial for murder?

    Ethics > money. Starve corporate leeches and dirt bag operators.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12220525

  2. Sanctuary 2

    From Mike Hosking today: “…I tried yesterday to explain to Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern…”

    Who the f*&k does that pompous ass think he is? What sort of arrogant dipshit thinks he gets the right to lecture the PM like she is a child????

    Hosking is a toxic, nasty and entitled white male prick, I wish the PM would boycott his ridiculous morning show.

    • …I tried yesterday to explain to Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern…

      It’s always funny to see how a pompous blowhard is just impervious to recognising things that will make others mark them down as a pompous blowhard.

    • Kat 2.2

      Over at the fish wrap according to Mrs Hosk, aka the Hawke, the PM will be leaving after one term for greener international pastures, so Jacinda Ardern won’t have to put up with Mr Hosk much longer……….https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12220880

      Must be fantastic having all this insider knowledge and wisdom that Mr and Mrs Hosk like to let everyone know they have. Special people these Hosks, they must spend their evenings banging heads to loosen the gossip.

      • Sanctuary 2.2.1

        Give her a break, the poor woman has to wake up next to Mike Hosking every morning.

      • ianmac 2.2.2

        Hosking says fruit pickers get$23 per hour. But avoids talking about hours to work, where to stay, continuity of work hours, transport, medical support and what if the picker already has a job near home even if part time?
        A liar by omission?

        • WeTheBleeple 2.2.2.1

          I took a look. I couldn’t find $23.50 rates instead contract rates claimed to give earnings around that figure but they did not give contract prices per bin with these employment offers.

          Some places had onsite accommodation for ‘minimal or small fee’. One place gave the minimal fee namely $125 per person per week for a shared room (two workers per room) no indication if cooking/washing facilities provided.

          In Stuff

          “While a kiwifruit industry group said its surveying showed an expected average picking rate this season of $23.50 an hour, a worker advocate disputed this, saying that as picking was often at piece rates some slower pickers were falling below minimum wage.”

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/111000891/kiwifruit-pickers-told-to-shop-around-for-employers-this-season

          Crews are paid by total per bin times bins picked divided by number of workers. As they’re desperate for workers the reality will be people with no idea of hustle make it difficult for others to pull good money – unless you organise your own crew that can motor. It’s a physical, but also mental game to stay at pace all day when the work is repetitive.

          If you give workers their own bins it is inefficient as they have to travel up and down the row to drop off each bag so it makes things worse for hard workers and hopeless for slackers.

          It’s possible if your ducks are lined up you could make fairly good of it. Living locally, a fit and motivated crew, take the best contracts (the orchards with best prices and/or best harvests).

      • newsense 2.2.3

        And the herald discussion of the above, following up on yesterday’s has the govt lost the cgt debate.

        The National party herald.

    • James 2.3

      What’s his skin colour and gender got to do with it?

  3. The guy is an Airhead and a not particularly intelligent one ?

  4. patricia bremner 4

    That is why people signed the petition. We need to repeat the exercise.
    Hoskings is a entitled fool.

  5. cleangreen 5

    I agree with Euthanasia-Free NZ calls on Parliament to reject the End of Life Choice Bill at its Second reading.

    I am a worker who was chemically poisoned by workplace ‘solvent chemicals’ 27 yrs ago with Chronic solvent induced encephalopathy (CSE) is a condition induced by long-term exposure to organic solvents.

    I was working for six months in an un-ventilated 12 story building in Toronto while painters were spraying the insides of that building with toxic solvent/urethane two pot clear varnish all around us all while working there, and we should have been supplied with oxygen masks and we should have been wearing “a moon suit” while working in that toxic indoor environment.
    No ‘conventional Doctor had any ideas how to save my life so after 12 medical assessments by these i2 doctors offered no medical assistance I turned to a Doctor specialist in workplace injuries and he offered to assess me if I paid for a US based laboratory chemical blood test using nuclear immune system ‘markers’ and when the results came back it found me full of solvent immune system and brain damage.

    The doctor and the Laboratory both assesssed I had ‘Chronic solvent induced encephalopathy (CSE)’ whic is a condition induced by long-term exposure to organic solvents

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_solvent-induced_encephalopathy

    I now use natural medicines avoidance of all chemicals and live on a remote mountain occasionally seeing family and city life briefly occasionally. but under Jacindas and the Act party assisted death bill I would be put down like a stray dog with my disease.

    I chose to live longer but my own choice thanks Jacinda even through the current dysfunctional medical system is corrupted by the chemical industry and cannot assist in saving my life, I will take my chances my way as it is my human right to seek a better life than an early death.

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/04/10/end-of-life-choice-bill-is-unworkable-and-arbitrary-euthanasia-free-new-zealand/

    • Dennis Frank 5.1

      under Jacindas and the Act party assisted death bill I would be put down like a stray dog with my disease

      Can you cite a clause in their bill that is a realistic basis for your fear? I doubt it. All the media reportage I’ve ever seen has it that the consent of the person desiring euthanasia is critical to the process. As long as you withhold consent, you’re safe.

      • cleangreen 5.1.1

        Dennis,

        we all know how the system works.

        Firstly they begin a ‘soft bill’ and ramp it up later to include the whole community.

        Don’t use simplistic notions Dennis it is insulting to me as a invalid from a workplace exposure, as I and my family have been almost destroyed by your ‘ilk of notions of “it’s alright jack”

        • Peter 5.1.1.1

          Is ‘ramping up’ implying that the bill would mean the state going door to door putting down people who are ill?

          • cleangreen 5.1.1.1.1

            Maggie Barry said it right,- that all it would need is a casual Doctor to refer a case as ‘terminal’

            12 doctors in Toronto said 27 yrs ago that my chemical poisoning injuries I could not be helped and that showed where we are all at the whim of Doctors.

            Could be in future. – ‘the future belongs to no-one’.

            • Ed1 5.1.1.1.1.1

              Was Maggie indicating that a future National-led Government may enable such action?

              • cleangreen

                Ed,

                Maggie was on the Q+A on Monday night if my memory serves me right and she was a ‘sole voice against Seymour and held her place well there, and not representing National though.

                (Neither will I)

        • ianmac 5.1.1.2

          Yep clean green. If this Bill gets passed, then soon those over 65 will be euthanised. It will happen starting next year I expect? 🙂

          • Sanctuary 5.1.1.2.1

            NZ First will never back it.

            • cleangreen 5.1.1.2.1.1

              Sanctuary

              I am a NZ First voter and no I agree that NZ First will never back this killing bill.

          • Firepig 5.1.1.2.2

            That will suit me fine, Ianmac. My demented mother and husband will be given quick release, I can go with them and the cat can inherit the lot. Perfect and cost-saving solution. I should put my hand up to go early. 🙂

          • alwyn 5.1.1.2.3

            Absolute Rubbish.
            They are going to use Logan’s Run as their model.
            Turn 30 and you are going to be out of here.

            • cleangreen 5.1.1.2.3.1

              Alwyn I never usually agree with you but alas on this one I do.’

              The big picture is that like China we will have a “life usefulness scale” attached to our history.

              So when our government life cost of care exceeds what the prevailing level government wants to set us as “not useful” we will get the chop.

              We will have an index of ‘credit’ and when this drops we are setup to fail medical assistance. Life end will when follow. So the ‘assisted death’ bill kicks in and finishes us off.

        • Tuppence Shrewsbury 5.1.1.3

          “We all know that…”

          =

          “I’m telling you what i believe but trying to give it some authority”

          =

          A steaming pile of horse dung is about to be dropped on the thread

      • Jenny - How to get there? 5.1.2

        NZ’s self appointed ‘Dr Death’ was the only MP against* banning military style semi-automatics makes his posing as a great humanitarian only interested in preventing suffering suspect.

        Some of the new cancer medications that can prolong life are very expensive, where letting these patients die is cheap.

        You can see where this is going.

        The incentive will be for Pharmac to stop funding these drugs. Rich people (ie Dr Death’s constituents), will still be able to afford these treatments privately, those who can’t and have to rely on the public health system will be offered the alternative, care of Dr Death MP

        *Dr Death would have voted against this ban if he hadn’t been too busy preening before the cameras in the parliamentary lobby and missed the vote.

        The sooner this dodgy MP, who is only in parliament due to a corrupt electoral gerrymander, is dumped the better.

        • reason 5.1.2.1

          Jenny and subhuman supremacists

          Jenny has jumped the shark …. and is now The Standards very own female Alex Jones.

          To quote Jenny posting here at TS …. and this is on-line necrophillia …. or Jenny disturbingly fucking with the dead…… ” Jo Cox was assassinated by a fascist gunman because she supported the Syrian people against the regime.”

          “The attack in Christchurch was conducted on the anniversary of the beginning of the popular revolt against Assad, by a gunman who self describes as a fascist.:

          “The normalisation and acceptance of fascism in Syria has emboldened and empowered fascists everywhere.”

          https://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/4273/8695/original.jpg

          Syria, the peaceful Libya Mrk II ….. and which killed 75000 Syrian Army troops in quick time … wounding and maiming a couple of hundred thousand more.

          And Not only is Assad / Syria to blame for Christchurch, …. but according to Jenny …… Nazis …. Everywhere
          .

          Part of Alex Jones / jennys further proof for this ….. is that Jo Cox …. a British Labour Mp murdered by a British subhuman supremist …. was also murdered because her attacker was a Syrian / Assad fan
          Jenny …. “Jo Cox was assassinated by a fascist gunman because she supported the Syrian people against the regime.”

          But all reporting on the trial ….. just shows another racist subhuman … ie

          The Judge while passing sentance …” It is evident from your internet searches that your inspiration is not love of country or your fellow citizens, it is an admiration for Nazis and similar anti-democratic white supremacist creeds” https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/nov/23/thomas-mair-found-guilty-of-jo-cox-murder

          “While attacking her he was saying: “This is for Britain”, “keep Britain independent”, and “Britain first”, the court heard.”

          “The following day he looked up Nazi Party material, political prisoners, serial killers, the human liver and vertebral column and the crime of matricide, or killing one’s mother”

          Jenny should explain her use of our christchurch Muslim victims for what seems to be Alex Jones like offensiveness and fantasy.

          https://theintercept.com/2016/06/17/far-right-britain-first-party-tries-avoid-blame-lawmakers-assassination/

          https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/jo-cox-mp-compassionate-road-to-war/

          https://www.mintpressnews.com/inside-the-humanitarian-regime-change-network-exploiting-jo-coxs-death/248209/

        • cleangreen 5.1.2.2

          100% Jenny you said it perfectly.

      • maggieinnz 5.1.3

        That seems to be the ‘go-to’ argument Dennis. It’s a shame to see people’s right to assisted dying polarised by paranoia.

    • SPC 5.2

      It’s a private members bill that would need to get public referendum endorsement to become enacted legislation.

      And no one would be rounded up to be put to death against their will – not under the proposed legislation.

      • cleangreen 5.2.1

        SPC – Your choice not mine as i have been damaged by your ‘easy style of acceptance’ – as that was what got me poisoned in the first place, with “shes alright jack” syndrome.

        “Once bitten twice shy”

        • SPC 5.2.1.1

          I just do not see any incongruence between those wanting to stay alive (and there being safe workplaces and or ACC) and receive health care and those seeking an end to their suffering during terminal illnesses.

          • cleangreen 5.2.1.1.1

            SPC You have shown total ignorance here with no care for the disabled.

            1/ you site workplace safety and ACC both fail many today not only me sunshine but the spotlight is on my medical injuries and chronic health which under the bill will be seen in future as a “terminal case” as explained in my opening statement “No ‘conventional Doctor had any ideas how to save my life so after 12 medical assessments by these i2 doctors offered no medical assistance”

            Result= terminal end of life expected.

            So my life will be put on a “no value” list eventually and toward possible death by ‘assisted death mode when the future changes allow state intervention with a doctors referral. .

            You are healthy but try walking on my shoes and your attitude will change as it did on the Christchurch murders.

            Assisted death is murder.

            • SPC 5.2.1.1.1.1

              You seem to confusing the eligibility criteria for a person to be able to seek help with the terminaiton of their life under euthenasia legislation, with a doctor referring them for euthenasia if they have a terminal illness – when the standard process would remain referral for palliative care at a hospice.

              Assisted death is only murder until euthenasia legislation is passed.

              • cleangreen

                SPC;
                No I am not as I have the same position as Maggie Barry,
                Maggie Barry said it right,- that all it would need is a casual Doctor to refer a case as ‘terminal’

                12 doctors in Toronto said 27 yrs ago that my chemical poisoning injuries I could not be helped and that showed where we are all at the whim of Doctors.

                Could be in future. – ‘the future belongs to no-one’.

                “You seem to confusing the eligibility criteria”

                • Wayne

                  Cleangreen,

                  While I am not a fan of euthanasia in principle, I can’t really imagine that the situation would ever evolve as you suggest.

                  If the Bill has to go to referendum to be implemented, that (at least in my view) would also be required for any significant amendment. In fact that could be written into the Bill.

                  In my view the level of protections will be very high. And the key person who has to start the process is the person concerned, with full mental faculties.

                  • cleangreen

                    Wayne

                    If you had walked in my shoes you wouldn’t now be so ‘self assured’ that the system is robust as you suggest.

                    We all know that once in law, – changes will occur later, as always do.

                    So stop the bill as Maggie Barry says ‘it is setting a precedent that will change to a more ‘liberal death’ assisted mechanism later using a simple casual doctors tick off as Maggie is correctly implying.

                    ‘the future belongs to no-one’.

                  • reason

                    While you do know a bit about being involved in the Killings of others Wayne …. the fact is the deaths you were involved in…… were of perfectltly healthy people and children……

                    Your morals are so questionable I do not think you can add much to any euthanasia debate ….

                    Don’t you have some Islamaphobia to spread somewhere ????

                • SPC

                  She either means, it would only require a doctor to confirm someone as dying/being of a terminal condition for that persons prior request for euthenasia to be legally valid, or she was lying.

                  A doctor identifying someones condition as terminal would of itself have nothing to do with euthenasia unless that said patient later sought that option.

                  • greywarshark

                    I think Maggie is taking the slippery slope approach. This is the usual way of arousing fear implying that nothing can be done
                    because of no controls on attacks on the vulnerable sick. This is not true, and while our society remains basically civilised as we are now, and the law is fair and strong, we will all have the rights that we hold dear to have control over our lives, our bodies, our treatment when we cannot be active any more but can still think.

                    Thought is our driver, it must be active and holistic and rational as well as emotional, not passive relying on the authority of strong institutions and doctrines of mass-management of people. Thought helps us to see how things are, and beyond what other people describe and define, so that we find our paths through an
                    increasingly complex world and that includes our path out, preferably one that is strewn with rose petals!

        • patricia bremner 5.2.1.2

          Cleangreen, I understand your name now, Chemical poisoning is a terrible thing.

          As we don’t have a death penalty, because people found that wrong, perhaps we need to examine whether enough is being done for those in pain at the end of their life, instead of choosing such a final solution.

          Our values have become so screwed up, we hardly recognise dangerous behaviours any more, so we poison our world our bodies and our minds.

          I started out on the “Let people who need it decide” Now, I’m no longer sure.

          • cleangreen 5.2.1.2.1

            Patricia;

            Thanks for understanding that chemical poisoning damages so much of what we we were before.

            I took my family back to Canada in 1988 to assist my wife’s mother and worked for Bell Canada as a Technician, we had two children and bought a house with a large mortgage but we had a great life there occasionally go to Nashville and I performed country music there.

            my boss liked me, and I was very successful as a company technician and got lots of letters of commendation that Bell was impressed with.

            My life was on steroids and our kids loved it so when the slow decline to full chemical poisoning happens I was oblivious to what was happening to me then so I fought hard to find out what was happening to me as I was a very fit healthy Kiwi from Napier before that with NZ doctors letters attesting to this fact.

            I had to go through a seven year battle to prove my injuries were linked to that building so I more than many know the chemical poisoning issue and how it affects the human body. I have a wonderful wife who has helped me through this all and the kids now are very wise about chemicals after seeing what happens to their strong father.

            My life is now in total self reliance because the medical system has very little knowledge of this disease at all.

            So yes we need medical community to learn about how the chemicals affect the human body for sure and then learn how to assist our recovery with IV treatments of Vitamins and minerals and other natural remedies to build our damaged immune systems up to fight and restore our broken bodies over time.

            • Skunk Weed 5.2.1.2.1.1

              Like + 100% we have to get back to basics eat a healthy diet high in nutrients etc to repair the body a lot of modern day medicine and the Big Pharma Industry is a crock of shit ?

            • patricia bremner 5.2.1.2.1.2

              I think I may have mentioned my Uncle who had lead poisoning after plumbing for many years. He had chelation therapy in Auckland, lived with Parkinsons Disease for 14/15 years.

              I have a vivid memory of my Father being shocked at learning DDT had been discovered thinning egg shells of birds in Antarctica, and how he learned to protect his cabbages without that poison.

              The nano particles of plastics and mineral oils are so toxic we will be paying for their effects for the foreseeable future. I now use mainly vinegar and baking powder as cleaners. Amonia when I get desperate. lol lol.

              You are wise to distance yourself from city pollutants. All the very best to you and yours.

              • cleangreen

                Thanks again Patricia,

                My life is devoted to informing others not to get chemically poisoned as it is so easy to get because the symptoms only appear after your body is saturated full of the toxins and it takes many years of recovery if you have the will to fight for your life as I did.

      • alwyn 5.2.2

        “It’s a private members bill that would need to get public referendum endorsement to become enacted legislation.”

        Just what is your rationale for making this claim?
        Does anyone remember there being a referendum on making homosexual sex legal?
        Or perhaps the law allowing gay couples to marry?
        Do you remember the referendum on what is loosely called the anti-smacking law?
        Well neither do I and they were all private members bills.
        There is no need for a referendum on any bill, whether Private Memebrs or not.

  6. marty mars 6

    Good solid read and well worth it.

    It is also how this story captures, in such a wonderful and grotesque synecdoche, the full gamut of conditions that produce white supremacy: the bureaucratically minded public servant for whom quietude and complacency pass as public welfare; the white man whose entire life experience amounts to being reassured, in a million different quotidian ways, of his entitlement to other people’s bodies and lands; and, I imagine, innumerable bystanders, leading their daily existence according to that quintessentially kiwi principle – conflict aversion. Fantasise as we might about the changes to come in the wake of tragedy, the fact is that barely three days after the massacre, a white man sporting a swastika outside a mosque was met with nothing more than a polite ‘move on’.

    https://www.pantograph-punch.com/post/post-massacre-reality

    • greywarshark 6.1

      mm
      Thoughtful piece. Thanks. But containing violent emotion and then channelling it into effective good actions and policies would be good wouldn’t it. Such as telling the swastika-wearing man to move on for a start. Is that bad? Or has someone developed a fairy godmother to wave a wand and say – Goodwill and respect to all. Let it be so. Or was that Picard who did that – one of the popular folk heroes?

      Dr Ranginui Walker said it in his book’s title – Struggle Without End. And that does not apply just to Maori, it is to pakeha of a progressive nature here, and to all peoples in the world. Tech is forcing machine change, turning us into machine operators with machine minds, pliable and flexible. So if that dangerous change is being forced, we must be flexible in other ways, keep thinking of the warm, human changes we need to make, slight even, but if positive then important as in chaos theory.
      https://www.penguin.co.nz/books/struggle-without-end-9780143019459

      keywords: Struggle without end Walker in Trade Me will bring up 10 of Dr Walker’s books – cheapest $15 plus probably post. (Don’t know about Adrian Thornton – have you any?):

      • marty mars 6.1.1

        I would have been hard pressed not to be physical with that nazi scum. They and all their weak tacit supporters can fuck off immediately imo.

    • Gabby 6.2

      Bloody hell is that a Will Self effort?

    • Anne 6.3

      Another excerpt:

      The man stood outside the Palmerston North mosque. Scenes from the video of the massacre remained etched, with ghoulish and vivid clarity, on his mind. Still high on a mixture of adrenaline and nerves three days later, he stood there daring, hoping, one of the mosque-goers might show up. But a part of him knew this was unlikely: the suckers were still reeling, afraid and wary they might be next. Besides, the point wasn’t to make them bleed; just to rub salt in the wound and savour his victory.

      The man with the swastika-emblazoned singlet was later approached and ushered away by police. Predictably, and as he himself probably anticipated, none of the charges were brought against him which one might reasonably expect in such a scenario: public nuisance, disturbance of the peace, inciting violence.

      And therein lies the heart of the problem. The enablers of these hate-filled acts are never charged and brought to justice. Anyone who has ever been on the receiving end of hate behaviour, for whatever reason, will know that the perpetrators are rarely investigated – let alone charged – by the police, and they are left to continue on their merry way committing more hateful behaviour with impunity.

      Thanks Marty.

  7. Dennis Frank 7

    The British parliament is producing a semblance of a pathway forward: “MPs have voted in favour of a new law to extend the Brexit process. The Commons backed a series of Lords amendments to the European Union (Withdrawal) (No 5) Act after it was rushed through both Houses of Parliament. MPs accepted the final Lords amendment to the Cooper-Letwin bill by 390 votes to 81, with a majority 309.” https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/parliament-passes-brexit-bill-no-deal-commons-article-50-yvette-cooper-a8860896.html

    “Labour MP Yvette Cooper’s backbench bill forces the prime minister to seek an extension to Article 50, therefore preventing the UK from crashing out of the EU without a deal. The bill was amended by peers to state that nothing in it prevented the prime minister from “seeking or agreeing” an extension, provided it was not earlier than 22 May.”

    “Theresa May is already seeking a further Brexit delay to 30 June and EU leaders will discuss this at an emergency summit this week. The Commons move came as Brexit talks between the government and Labour resumed on Monday.”

    Corbyn: ““The exchanges with the government have been serious, but our shadow cabinet expressed frustration that the prime minister has not yet moved off her red lines so we can reach a compromise. The key issues that we must see real movement on to secure an agreement are a customs union with the EU, alignment with the single market and full dynamic alignment of workers’ rights, environmental protections and consumer standards.”

    • Dennis Frank 7.1

      The hitherto united front is splitting between France & Germany: “Now, almost without the prime minister’s intervention, some cracks are appearing in the edifice of European solidarity. Most significant, they are forming between Paris and Berlin on the best way to handle the chronic failure of the British to formulate a national policy.” https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/brexit-theresa-may-france-germany-europe-angela-merkel-article-50-a8861936.html

      “Merkel has been convinced of the need for patience because of what she has seen for herself on her recent visit to another member state – Ireland. The Irish say, rightly, that a border between the republic and Northern Ireland is unthinkable for obvious political historical and economic reasons. The 310 miles of meandering frontier that crosses roads, lanes, fields, barns, farmyards, lakes and rivers is notoriously porous.”

      “Even during the Troubles it was impossible for the British army to control it. Under a no-deal Brexit this would be the European Union’s back door onto the rest of the world. A few besieged customs officers – if either the British or the Irish dared post them – would be all that stood between the integrity of the EU single market and its derangement.”

      “In the absence of the much vaunted technological alternatives to a border on the island of Ireland, the British cannot under any circumstances be permitted to leave without a deal, as far as the EU can influence things. Hence Michel Barnier’s implication that if there is a no-deal Brexit, it would be entirely a decision by the UK and the UK alone. He too knows that the new act of parliament piloted through by Yvette Cooper makes this a virtual impossibility anyway. The Cooper Act, as it should be known, has outlawed no-deal Brexit; and the EU is determined that it will not impose one.”

      “Ms Merkel seems prepared to wait as long as it takes for the penny to drop in London that this is in fact the case. She has also come to the considered view that a hard border in Ireland is unthinkable and that a no-deal Brexit is therefore also unthinkable (and that the Irish backstop is a red line).”

      • Wayne 7.1.1

        In reality does it matter that the border is porous? It is porous now, and I can’t imagine that NI and the rest of the UK could not care two hoots that it remains porous.

        I suppose it could be a backdoor entry for people who are legally in the EU, but will be no longer welcome in post Brexit UK. I suppose it could be an entry point (from NI to Eire) for cheap meat, and other cheap UK (or NZ) produce. Would anyone really care about agricultural produce?

        • WeTheBleeple 7.1.1.1

          ” Would anyone really care about agricultural produce?”

          Oh, the irony. 😀

          • Wayne 7.1.1.1.1

            The issue is the movement of agricultural produce across the Irish border, as would have been blindingly obvious. Do the UK and Ireland have basically different food standards. The answer is “no”.

            • McFlock 7.1.1.1.1.1

              The issue is whether the UK crashes out and therefore doesn’t have a free trade agreement with the EU, for any commodity.

              Not just tarriffs – political embargos.

              Let’s say the UK jumps in bed with the yanks and boycotts “Foreignia”. EU distributor doesn’t give a shit, imports baskets from Foreignia. Payload gets split, some baskets go to Ireland, payload gets split again, baskets end up un 50p stores in Blackpool. Yanks go apeshit.

              Mid-ocean transfers are hard enough to determine – looking at cargo transfers in logistics nodes would be impossible to police effectively with a soft border.

        • Dennis Frank 7.1.1.2

          Good questions, eh? Rhetorical for now, but could be that inflexible minds will have to flex eventually. I recall encountering semi-permeable membranes in college general science (early sixties) so the way they function in biology may have produced multidisciplinary gnosis since then.

          Inasmuch as the public here didn’t get spooked by the invasion of foreign wasps in the nineties, and has been stoic in regard to various other biological invasions since, I think the notion of hard borders may be evaporating…

          • Gabby 7.1.1.2.1

            Pigs might fly franko, borders get pretty hard when yankistan wants to keep out the competition.

            • Dennis Frank 7.1.1.2.1.1

              You haven’t noticed their trend towards fences instead of walls? Pics on the news last night. El cheapo, as the texmex folk would call it. No explanation of why Obrador is suddenly doing what Trump wants, even though Trump publicly commended him for doing so, just another elephant in the herd huddled in the middle of the media room…

              “Mexican officials are carrying out the Trump administration’s immigration agenda across wide stretches of the border, undercutting the Mexican government’s promises to defend migrants and support their search for a better life.” https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/01/world/americas/mexico-migration-trump.html

              “The Mexican authorities are blocking groups of migrants at border towns, refusing to allow them onto international bridges to apply for asylum in the United States, intercepting unaccompanied minors before they can reach American soil, and helping to manage lists of asylum seekers on behalf of the American authorities to limit the number of people crossing the border.”

              Perhaps someone will point out that socialists have had a durable partnership with capitalists for yonks, so it’s just more of the same.

      • mikesh 7.1.2

        What would the situation with the Irish border be if UK had not joined the EU in the first place.

  8. joe90 8

    Republicans had this idiot testify at the hearing.

    Executives from Google and Facebook are facing Congress Tuesday to answer questions about their role in the spread of hate crimes and the rise of white nationalism in the U.S.

    Neil Potts, Facebook’s director of public policy and Alexandria Walden, counsel for free expression and human rights at Google, will speak to the House Judiciary Committee along with leaders of the Anti-Defamation League, the Equal Justice Society and others.

    The hearing was prompted by the March shootings in Christchurch, New Zealand, when a gunman killed 50 people at two mosques and livestreamed the attacks on Facebook.

    https://www.apnews.com/4d0383b5a1764cf18710a27ce6db3036

  9. cleangreen 9

    Good points Joe;

    I feel Joe that the internet is too open now.

    It is being abused and free to bully anyone now.

    So standards of ‘respect’ need to be given to all parties now.

    As the hate has been ramping up since the 2017 years, and is now reaching a disturbing pitch to me that I wonder if this is affecting all the youth that are attempting suicide now.

  10. greywarshark 10

    As society breaks down and with it standards about care and legal behaviour, the vulnerable need to watch out for their position if they are within tight-knit family or cult groups. They will close ranks to protect their own.

    Michael and Bonnie Haim worked together at a construction supply company owned by Michael’s aunt, Eveann Haim. He was a manager. Bonnie kept the business accounts.
    According to Unsolved Mysteries TV programme,…The couple fought frequently, and their blowups turned violent.
    “One day they got into an argument . . . in the parking lot,” Eveann told Unsolved Mysteries. “And she came in crying and he had slammed her hand in the door and her nails were broke and she was very upset at that point.”

    This is a story from 1993 in Florida USA where the police were unable to find evidence that the husband killed his wife who he said had left home after an argument. The importance of their 3-year old son’s witnessing and his statement that his father hurt his mother was not understood. I wonder what was it like for that child growing up with that trauma in his memory? Also he wasn’t wanted by his father’s family, nor his mother’s family and adopted out.

    “The credibility of a child is something that you have to judge in perspective,” Bonnie’s father, Robert Pasciuto, told Unsolved Mysteries. “He’s said a couple of things that we know were not true. ‘Mum’s car is in the lake.’ We know her car wasn’t there.”
    Aaron was eventually adopted by another family, taking their last name. In the early 2000s, he filed a wrongful-death lawsuit against his biological father, even though Bonnie’s remains had not been found. In April 2005, he won a US$26.3 million settlement against Michael, which included the ownership of the family home, News4Jax reported. It was being used as a rental.

    In the amazing way that USA laws go the son as an adult was able to sue his father for $26 million and was awarded the house he lived in at age 3. On breaking up the concrete round the swimming pool, he found his mother’s body in a plastic bag.
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz//world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12220502&ref=clavis
    ‘Daddy hurt her’: Nobody believed a boy’s story, until he dug up the backyard 20 years later

  11. millsy 11

    Lets face it, Seymour’s goal is to have the chronically ill poor, disabled and elderly bump themselves off so his voters nest eggs cannot be raided to pay for their healthcare.

    That is all that it is about. Nothing to do with compassion, or anything.

    For the past 25 years, ACT has been wanting to impose US style health care on this country, and bringing in assisted suicide is the first step.

    • SPC 11.1

      It’s sad how so many supposedly left wing people have now become shills for the people who opposed same sex activity and marriage and now womens choice on their fertility, by buying into their arguments (they will use any trick as in past debates) that euthenasia is a stalking horse for a reduced health service.

      A truly progressivce left would fight hard for health funding AND for the individuals right to choose to end their suffering.

      And given the right is more opposed than the left to this legislation, it’s not a very credible conspiracy theory.

      • Rosemary McDonald 11.1.1

        “It’s sad how so many supposedly left wing people become shills for the people who opposed same sex activity and marriage and now womens choice on their fertility now peddle their arguments to prolong the suffering of those who are dying.”

        It is even more sad when commenters assume that those of us who have valid concerns that the EOLC Bill in its current form will leave certain groups vulnerable to being coerced by the State to see euthanasia as their only option are also anti-gay, anti-abortion and even anti-euthanasia.

        Let me assure you, and any other numpties that wrongly make this assumption, that no….we’re not all one homogeneous group who bow down before a god and subscribe to archaic and arcane dogma.

        Some of us are actually in favour of a person being assisted to end their own suffering.

        What I am so concerned about, to the point where I say this Bill should be halted (again), is that despite the same fears being raised on the previous occasions this type of legislation was in the House the situation for non ACC disabled, who have none of the legislated rights and entitlements to treatment and support that ACC provides has actual got more precarious.

        Is that clear?

        The situation for non ACC disabled has actually got worse over the time since these fears were voiced when Maryann Street first floated her Bill.

        So we need to back up the truck a little bit and get the rights of those who want to live acknowledged and respected and properly supported before we make it easier for the State to eliminate these people.

        • SPC 11.1.1.1

          Euthenasia has nothing to do with the state finding an easy way to get rid of people.

          As you acknoweldge the state is quite able to skimp on care already – with the circumstance for some with health care need getting worse while there has been no euthenasia, and might well continue to get worse if there was euthenasia, as it has done now without euthenasia.

          Your only point is to support a veto on euthenasia until one group get their needs met (while others wouild continue to be neglected). A strategy of forcing others to suffer until death is to my mind a little one dimensional.

          Extending ACC to sickness (just covering aging incapacity might be a start) has been on the wishlist for decades now, but it is a distinct issue.

          I would have thought the more direct crossover issue were those who were dying in poverty because of sickness/illness (outside ACC cover) – and thus amending this legislation to find some means of financial support beyond benefit poverty.

          • KJT 11.1.1.1.1

            How about we support the rights of terminally Ill people to decide their own exit.

            AND. Support the rights of disabled people.
            For example. Extending ACC to illness, and bringing the scheme back to a paygo cover, as was originally intended. Before it was turned into a corporate insurance type money making scheme, in preparation for privatisation.

            • SPC 11.1.1.1.1.1

              Oh for sure, ACC is ripe for a major review. Love that to be an amendment to the euthenasia bill. And that work could begin before the referendum.

              • Rosemary McDonald

                Big of you to make that concession SPC…but no thanks.

                Lets sort out the gross disparities in rights and entitlements between ACC and MOH long term disabled first.

                Get the playing field level.

                ACC began appropriately on the Ist April 1974, and despite various amendments (https://www.acc.co.nz/about-us/who-we-are/our-history/) provides an outstanding level of support for those with permanent injuries covered by ACC.

                These supports are enshrined in legislation. They are rights and entitlements.

                Now compare ACC and MOH supports for, say spinal injuries….https://www.acc.co.nz/assets/provider/45c41ffec7/sci-strategy-situation-analysis.pdf page 83 onwards.

                Let me advise anyone bothering to actually read the chart….NOTHING has changed for MOH spinal impaired apart from the family carer issue, which was managed by National by legislation making the found discrimination legal and imposing further discrimination.

                NB. Labour and the Greens and NZ First all protested loudly at the Part 4 amendment back in 2013. Labour specifically stated in their manifesto they would repeal that legislation were they elected.

                This has not happened, and the signs indicate that this is unlikely in the near future.

                Yet Jacinda ‘wants choice’ on euthanasia????

              • cleangreen

                Stop the killing bill.

        • gsays 11.1.1.2

          thanks again Rosemary, for saying it better than i could.

          i had an interesting conversation with a 24 hour in home care worker recently.
          she was torn by the proposed legislation, without reading it closely.
          an example she cited was an 80 year old woman who had become mute in recent years and had a few co-morbidities.
          her children were either overseas or in busy lives in another part of the country.

          long story short, the carer felt her patient (client?), was happy and coping until the children and G.P. got the morphine pump at home. then the rapid downhill descent began.

          • greywarshark 11.1.1.2.1

            gsays
            Can nobody think of the larger picture. We are living longer because of medical interventions, that continue, offering us replacement parts and transfusions of blood and so on and announcing new medical breakthroughs that will enable people to live past 100.

            It is so unfair that all this medical treatment is poured into people who have lived their life, had it and got old and decrepit and without intervention would die. But no there is so much concern about older people. And very little for children who because of poverty and stressed parents just coping are shown to have very poor health. But can’t get important life-shaping treatment for perhaps six months.

            The selfish entitlement of the elderly – say over 80s is immense. What should be done is for them to get every help up to 80 and then it is just to assist mobility and sight and pain. They can die virtually naturally then with or without euthanasia. That’s a theory, but there is always the possibility of having a stroke and being an inert body having to be cared for, with or without a thinking mind, and living on with no agency. Sometimes people say they would like to die, but their opinions are treated as wild fancies, or ungrateful to family or those who look after them. Euthanasia in these cases could be agreed to by family and the sufferer if still sentient, and would be properly, legally effected.

            It is necessary to face up to the reality of our modern society. We have had it good, but can’t keep putting the life credit card in and drawing out more years on and on. There is an end of life to be faced and many of you can’t comprehend that there isn’t the money and resources to support your every want, or your relatives’ wants, in NZ and in the world the planet is overpopulated with dire consequences.

            Are you just grown-up spoilt children who expect everything to suit you on your demand which includes extended life which needs pharmaceutical assistance that uses funds withheld from youth health care? Not a pretty picture is it. And I suppose I will get hate speech for showing you the truth. The Emperor has No Clothes the little voice says! My book on Hans Christian Andersen says people would stop him in the street and remonstrate with him!

            • Gabby 11.1.1.2.1.1

              And there it is.

            • bwaghorn 11.1.1.2.1.2

              Ive known to elderly gents who had stents while in their late 70s and both appeared to regret it due to thier bodies clapping out and the heart not giving them the quick exit they would have had . I hope im brave enough to say no when i get there.

            • gsays 11.1.1.2.1.3

              Hi grey, I agree more needs to be spent on youngsters health, especially dental and mental health.
              To appeal to any capitalists/tories, it’s cheaper to spend the $’s early.

          • Rosemary McDonald 11.1.1.2.2

            Hiya gsays. 80 years old is no age these days and I’ve had the privilege of being out fished by a 95 year old. Sadly, I heard just today that she has had to go into care….and she has deteriorated already.

            The old morphine pump can sure speed up decline, and I’ve seen one person deploy a newly installed one to precipitate their rapid demise. I really didn’t have an issue with that…this lady had made up her mind and just got on with it.

            We’re not very good dealing with death in NZ…almost as if we have forgotten that it is a natural part of life. In my experience most folk die in their own good time. What will carry one person off quite rapidly, another can seem to plug on for months longer.

            Sometimes I have been forced to consider the possibility that it might be that we all have an allotted lifespan…be it our cells’ DNA has a predetermined kill switch or we do have a ‘soul’ which departs thislife at a specific time.

            Who knows?

            • gsays 11.1.1.2.2.1

              80 and 93 are just numbers.
              I know a couple of OLD 50 somethings, the stories they can tell though.

              You are right, death is a toughie.
              What can make it tougher is not learning to live.

      • cleangreen 11.1.2

        SPC you are most insensitive blogger here,

        Where is your humanity?

        Bugger off if you won’t respect others views.

        • SPC 11.1.2.1

          Is not conflating disagreement of opinion with disrespecting others just a little warped?

          But I suppose it is does enable the perpertrator to then justify being intolerant with a modicom of self-righteousness. Feel good to get that out there?

        • greywarshark 11.1.2.2

          Cleangreen
          You are not respecting SPCs views! He is trying to think his way through the matters that get raised in the euthanasia and health funding discussions.
          You might take your own advice.

          But that would be a shame as you try to explain your way through the funding and provision discussions that you have adopted as your citizen effort to get fairer governmental systems.

          It seems to me that anger is energy, and energy like this needs to be channelled and let out in appropriate amounts in appropriate ways. Otherwise it wipes out more than it aids, ends up starting fires like lightning. Good analogy? Or POS?

        • Psycho Milt 11.1.2.3

          Bugger off if you won’t respect others views.

          Oh, the irony!

        • maggieinnz 11.1.2.4

          Wow! SPC has provided sound argument that was neither insensitive nor lacking in humanity. Respecting another person’s right to an opinion isn’t the same as agreeing with that opinion.

    • Wayne 11.2

      millsy,

      Don’t be ridiculous!

      • cleangreen 11.2.1

        Wayne – back off and show respect.

        • Wayne 11.2.1.1

          Given that I am often told on this site that I am a traitor, that I am a war criminal, that I should be physically attacked (Stuart Munro yesterday), it is a pretty mild rejoinder to say it is ridiculous that David Seymour wants to kill people so healthcare not be paid.

          However, I probably should not have reacted to millsy’s emotional statement.

          Beautiful day in Auckland, so I am going to have a refreshing swim in the sea, to get me away from the computer!

          • KJT 11.2.1.1.1

            Seymour belongs to a group that openly espouses the view, though they are careful not to lay it out, that anyone without money who doesn’t work, doesn’t deserve to eat. I.e. They should just die, already. Just so his supporters can stop paying tax.

            Not a stretch to be suspicious of the underlying motives.

            In your case Wayne, I accept that you may genuinely believe you were doing your best. Like Jim Bolger. Even though the results prove otherwise.

            The increases in poverty from your policy choices, were probably not the intention. Whereas Seymour doesn’t care.

            • greywarshark 11.2.1.1.1.1

              But Seymour is a lovely little speaker. He came across this morning as clear and cogent on the euthanasia bill. And he can dance too. That is very important for an ACT person. He can have one tick at least from me if he can get the euthanasia bill through those massing together to down it because ‘nothing should be done for the first time.’

              Yes Minister’s Sir Humphrey Appleby expresses the thinking so well:
              Sir Humphrey Appleby:
              On the contrary, many, many things must be done…
              Sir Humphrey Appleby, James Hacker:
              [together] but nothing must be done for the first time.

              Sir Humphrey Appleby:
              No, no, Minister. What I mean is that I am fully seized of your aims and of course I will do my utmost to see that they are put into practice.
              James Hacker:
              If you would.

              Sir Humphrey Appleby:
              And to that end, I recommend that we set up an interdepartmental committee with fairly broad terms of reference so that at the end of the day we’ll be in the position to think through the various implications and arrive at a decision based on long-term considerations rather than rush prematurely into precipitate and possibly ill-conceived action which might well have unforeseen repercussions.

              James Hacker:
              You mean no.

              https://www.quotes.net/mquote/956563

          • Stuart Munro. 11.2.1.1.2

            Lying as usual Wayne – I said that you should be publicly shamed.

            The record of the Key Kleptocracy lives in infamy and so should you.

            • Wayne 11.2.1.1.2.1

              The video you had as the example of what should happen had people throwing all sorts of things at her, usually regarded as assault. In response to the milder video posted by someone else, you said it was not enough.

              You need to dial some your comments back a bit.

              • Stuart Munro.

                You need to stop lying your ass off Wayne.

                I know it’s the only way you could remotely justify your misdeeds, but misrepresenting my comments, though no doubt satisfying, does nothing to atone for your wretched performance in government.

                Take some responsibility for once in your trivial life.

                • WeTheBleeple

                  Only a few days ago you were advocating ‘free dental work’ for people calling white folks racist Stuart. I don’t think you can take the high road, it is fair you were asked to rein it in.

                  And yeah I’m no angel.

                  Plenty of us could do with more civility.

                  • Stuart Munro.

                    There is a reason to be angry with Wayne WTB. He may be one of the best of the Gnats, but frankly that’s just not good enough. Did he moderate the corrupt excesses of the likes of Brownlee or English? He did not. And, considering his own portfolio, why are the survivors of operation Burnham still waiting for justice – that was 2010 – plenty of time to have done what must be to restore the reputation of our armed forces.

                    As for the violence thing – lower standard made a false accusation to try to shut me up. He did not fool the mods however.

                    As for your own attempt to fit me up for your rather rickety definition of racism, or to map me onto the CHCH shooters profile, do you consider it civil to engage in such sophistry? I don’t.

                    • WeTheBleeple

                      Get a grip you still sound like you think you’re a victim.

                      Yeah yeah I know, slaves took your job… 🙁

                    • Stuart Munro.

                      I guess it’s nothing to you, but those battles were supposed to have ended with William Wilberforce. Not chuffed to see it coming back, with the approval of fauxgressives no less.

              • higherstandard

                ‘You need to dial some your comments back a bit.’

                Oh he has, he went through a period demanding that all and sundry from the Nats should be hanged, executed etc.

                With apologies to the great bard ….. Stuart struts and frets his hour upon this blog telling his tales full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

                • marty mars

                  Dont mention ‘white’ fright or the patriarchy though – he dont like that shit. Or apologising when he fucks up like when he misquoted me the other day eh stewy.

                  • Stuart Munro.

                    I don’t owe you an apology Marty, you’d do well to but out.

                    • marty mars

                      Yeah nah bossman I’ll do what I want.

                    • Stuart Munro.

                      @ Marty Knock yourself out then.

                      But ‘white fright’ does not describe the replacement of NZ workers with foreign slave workers, which has actually happened in some industries. The slave workers in my industry were predominantly Russian too, so you’d need to find another bugaboo besides race, to pretend to exculpate the slave operators and their governmental accomplices.

                    • marty mars

                      “The slave workers in my industry were predominantly Russian too,”

                      You’re the one fixated by race and your ‘white’ stuff – I’ve already said what I think ‘white’ is and it ain’t just about skin pigmentation. Try to use your brain ffs even if you’re scared.

                    • Stuart Munro.

                      Marty, as usual you’re not making sense.

                      I’m not scared, I’ve just been fucked over. This is what politicised me, that and the deaths of some of my former colleagues. You seem to think you know everything about it, but you don’t.

                      You’re the one obsessed with race; justice and democracy are more my bag.

                    • marty mars

                      Get over yourself.

                      “You seem to think you know everything about it, but you don’t.”

                      bullshit – how the fuck would I know about your situation unless you write and post it. You’re been caught out with your ‘white oppressed’ fatuous angle and wrote many comments about it and I reacted to some of them because they were idiotic and stupid imo. Quite frankly you’ve shown your true colours and imo they ain’t pretty – stick to abusing ex gnat MP’s cos you’re good at that.

                    • Stuart Munro.

                      Actually Marty, how about you get over yourself.

                      You love your own racist angle that no-one else ever suffers injustice – but that’s nonsense, and you know it perfectly well. You’re not fooling anyone. You don’t think white oppressed happens? Guess you deny the holocaust then.

                      It’s tiring fighting my way through your prejudice, and WTB’s raving lunacy, but your insistence that you understand my circumstances better than me, who lived it, is of course, presumptuous folly.

                    • marty mars

                      Lol big words but little meaning and even less understanding. What a dim, resentful, bitter, puffed up little mantool lol.

                • Stuart Munro.

                  That’s the normal treatment for traitors, Lowerstandard, and they will not be reformed into decent human beings or effective representatives by just letting them off the hook. The need for periodic public censure is characteristic of democracies.

                  • higherstandard

                    😆 good old Stuart still tilting at windmills.

                    • Stuart Munro.

                      You may be satisfied with hot and cold running corruption that characterized the last government, but I want something much, much better.

                    • higherstandard

                      Yes dear

                    • Stuart Munro.

                      You’re down with sleaze, Lowerstandard, a defender of public corruption. Spare me your endearments, you are beneath contempt.

                  • maggieinnz

                    “I’m not scared, I’ve just been fucked over. This is what politicised me, ”

                    No, YOU politicised you. Everyone’s been fucked over Stuart, everyone.

              • Incognito

                FYI, the offensive video was deleted because it crossed the line IMO.

            • cleangreen 11.2.1.1.2.2

              100% Stuart bang on.

          • Wensleydale 11.2.1.1.3

            You’re going for a swim in the sea in Auckland? You brave soul. Remember, if it’s brown and it floats, it’s not necessarily seaweed. Also, don’t drink any of it. And wash your togs afterwards or people will think you’ve wet yourself.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 11.3

      I’m no fan of ACT or Seymour, but countries that already have voluntary euthanasia include many that feature far better access to state health care than we do. US healthcare and VE don’t seem to be linked.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_euthanasia

  12. Paaparakauta 12

    Brexit is already causing medicine shortages at pharmacies in England.
    A novel diagnosis – death by Brexit ?
    Archaeologists of the future will have their work cut out .. was it a natural disaster like Pompeii ?

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/09/brexit-medicine-shortages-pharmacies-england

  13. cleangreen 13

    SPC I won’t listen to your tripe any more as you are just a hollow chamber spouting rubbish, as you want state government ‘assisted dying’ and we don’t.

    • SPC 13.1

      As you claim to be one of the we, then I presume “we” are confident enough that should this go to a referendum then clearly I and Rimmer would be outvoted.

  14. cleangreen 14

    Thank you ‘Euthanasia-Free NZ. for supporting my right to live.

    In the current attitude both Jacinda and the Act Party both appear to hold, a worker like me who was chemically poisoned in the workplace 27 yrs ago, and still suffering from chronic disease should now be put down like a stray dog, because the current medical fraternity has no idea how to treat those of us that have chemical poisoning resulting in immune system damage & solvent toxicity causing ‘Chronic solvent-induced encephalopathy’ today, because the university training of doctors is overseen by the ‘very same chemical companies’ that poisoned me and other workers all those years ago.

    We all know about “painters syndrome” don’t we?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_solvent-induced_encephalopathy

    But strangely the medical community have no idea how to treat and cure this affliction, so we all fall through the cracks and if this bill is passed then we are doomed to be killed by this insidious bill.

    As a point of interest I self medicate myself now with natural medicine and vitamins and minerals, and stay well clear of any chemicals today and live in a remote mountain on the border of Bay of Plenty and Gisborne. I really see city life or family but that will be my cross to bear for my life however I choose to live, and for how long (no thanks to Jacinda and the Act party for trying to kill me off).

    • patricia bremner 14.1

      Cleangreen, Jacinda is exercising her right to vote, but in this she is wrong but she is certainly not aiming at you personally.

      • Rosemary McDonald 14.1.1

        ” Jacinda is exercising her right to vote, but in this she is wrong but she is certainly not aiming at you personally.”

        Perhaps the whole tactic of having her being marketed as the ‘People’s PM’, being accessible and approachable to the ordinary person, was in error?

        Because if the good stuff is to be seen as ‘personal’, then so too should the not so good.

      • KJT 14.1.2

        There is no intention to make it, compulsory.

      • cleangreen 14.1.3

        Patricia; I hope not. 14.1

    • In the current attitude both Jacinda and the Act Party both appear to hold, a worker like me … should now be put down like a stray dog…

      That would be an astonishingly evil attitude for them to hold – if your claim is true. On what do you base the claim?

    • Cinny 14.3

      No one is trying to kill you off Cleangreen. What they are suggesting is that people have a choice. Some may prefer to choose the rule of nature and let themselves pass when nature dictates it to happen, and others would prefer to make that choice themselves.

      Most who would opt for euthanasia would probably only be ending their lives early by a week or two, sure beats lying in a bed like a zombie suffering and waiting to gurgle ones last breath.

      I lost a dear friend a few months back, he suffered tremendously, and was begging to be given too much morphine to end it all. Euthanasia would have given him a choice.

      • cleangreen 14.3.1

        Cinny

        I have been through the ‘death side’ of living, to where the pain becomes unbearable, constantly.

        But pure will to live saved me.

        No Doctor saved me, so give people support and hope and the body can heal itself if you try.

        But some may not be getting prper support and that is where we are at here.

        Medicine needs to catch up with these chric diseases as I have so can anyone else as I am no superman.

        The medial system is broken in nNZ after nine years of chronic under-funding.

        • Cinny 14.3.1.1

          CG, thanks for explaining.

          Gma used to tell me that having a positive mindset allows a person to overcome many odds and even illness, she was a wise woman and I’m guessing that you have the same outlook which is awesome.

          For me I’ve watched a number of family members and friends rot away from cancer and on their death beds it’s been difficult for them during those last days, that’s the angle I’m coming from.

          Especially when you are sitting with them for hours and they are out cold, struggling to breathe and the time between each breath becomes longer and longer, and it goes on for hours and hours and hours, until they eventually stop breathing. In that instance, it was Gma, and she was in her 90’s and didn’t want to be resuscitated, it was her time, but it took so long. I do wonder what that long night felt like for her and if that last top up of morphine the following morning was made more generous to help her on her way.

          Absolutely agree with you about the medical system being broken after years of chronic under-funding.

          Re your healthy lifestyle, I’m so hearing you on that and applaud you for making those changes to help yourself, if it’s working for you and it sounds like it is, keep doing it.

          All the best, may you heal and be well.

          • cleangreen 14.3.1.1.1

            Thanks very much Cinny,

            When I read your challenges about your family I felt deep sadness as I have seen both my mother and sister die of cancer and now I am the same age as my dear Mum Easter was and I have beaten the cancer too, by IV infusions of Vitamin C and drinking a litre of pure spring water with 10mls of (35% Hydrogen peroxide) H2O2 every night three hours after my last meal as H2O2 kills cancer as cancer cant live in an ‘oxygen’ environment inside the body.

            I also have a mist spray 200ml bottle with 15mls of 35% H2O2 in it and spray into my lungs and it kills cancer there to, and cleans out the lungs. If anyone cares to research this power of H2O2 search the following.

            https://www.cancertruth.net/hydrogen-peroxide-medical-miracle/

            “Hydrogen Peroxide – Medical Miracle. by William Campbell Douglass II MD .

            Synopsis
            Expand/Collapse Synopsis
            Peroxides are supposed to be bad for you. Free radicals and all that. But now we hear that hydrogen peroxide is good for us. Hydrogen peroxide will put extra oxygen in your blood. There’s no doubt about that. Hydrogen peroxide costs pennies. So if you can get oxygen into the blood cheaply and safely, maybe cancer (which doesn’t like oxygen), emphysema, AIDS, and many other terrible diseases can be treated effectively. Intravenous hydrogen peroxide rapidly relieves allergic reactions, influenza symptoms, and acute viral infections.

            • Cinny 14.3.1.1.1.1

              That’s super interesting, thanks for the link and information, much appreciated. Fascinating topic CG and how cool that you are living proof of the results, awesome.

              One of my daughters friends, her mum has a type of blood cancer, I’ll pass this info on to her, she will really appreciate it, she’s of a similar mindset as yourself 🙂 re cancer and healing and positive attitude and alternative remedies.

              Thanks again CG for the info. Much love to you and yours from me and mine.

              • Andre

                Oh jeez.

                Please, please, don’t take advice from randoms on the internet as something to be followed uncritically.

                If you’re lucky, it may be a clue to a topic that further research and consultation with actual experts turns out to be worthwhile. But seriously, it’s much more likely to turn out to be harmful. For instance, here’s a report from actual expert investigations into therapies using hydrogen peroxide.

                https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3180186/

                • Cinny

                  Thanks for the link Andre, I’ll check it out. There’s always two sides and it’s good to know both. Thanks again 🙂

  15. ankerawshark 15

    More click bait headlines in the herald from hoskings and hawkesby. I con’t copy the link as don’t want to give them clicks.

    Mike “Kiwis too lazy to work for good pay in orchids” . o.k. Mike you know what to do. Get off your lazy arse and go and do something worthwhile for a change. Pick some fruit bro.

    Hawkesby “Why Ardern will be a one term PM” . Really. FFS.

    Why do they both printing this shite.

    • joe90 15.1

      This denies them clicks.

      http://archive.li/

      • ankerawshark 15.1.1

        Thanks Jo90.

        I see that Kates article is now a breaking news………………………..I am not going to read it. I rather get someone to read the tealeaves over this and its likely to be more accurate. Please Kate and Mike, do something useful……go and pick some fruit.

    • Kat 15.2

      The fish wrap has an online click game going called “lets talk”…..reading some of the contributions I would consider “lets vomit” more in keeping.

    • lprent 15.3

      Why do they both printing this shite

      Because the demographic who still consume local newspapers and other mass media is steadily getting smaller, older, and probably more than a little gaga from the culture shock of finding people who disagree with them. They increasingly cling to the world of their childhood when the bigotries were pervasive and completely stupid.

      Hosking and Hawksby and virtually every other shock jock fit that audience as snuggly as a extra small condom.

  16. The Chairman 16

    Calls for a new special fund (similar to the Earthquake Commission and the NZ Super Fund) to be set up to help pay for future costs of climate change.
    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018690171/climate-change-costs-fund-urged-we-re-talking-billions

    Not a bad idea. But how should it be funded? From a new climate tax or from the current tax pool?

    • WeTheBleeple 16.1

      The idea of a carbon tax (at least Canada’s model) is that the money is recirculated in the economy so high carbon users pay more, low carbon users get incentives.

      Were we to create a ‘climate tax’ it would in effect be a carbon tax, and should rightfully be used for the intended purpose – to relieve the planet of carbon emissions, not as a revenue grab.

      A slush fund for mitigation processes that protect local communities and business might be acceptably drawn from this tax.

      A disaster fund from carbon tax might be seen as a tax-steal on behalf of insurance companies.

      • The Chairman 16.1.1

        We (or should that be Labour?) abandoned a carbon tax for carbon trading, go figure. Hence, the suggested title (i.e. climate tax)

        It would be a tax on behalf of the people. Private insurance obligations would remain.

        However, they (private insurers) seem to be on the retreat from risk. Hence, people will find themselves in even more need when they can no longer attain or afford private cover going forward.

        • WeTheBleeple 16.1.1.1

          With insurance companies on the retreat a climate fund could theoretically be partially paid for through previously allocated funds for ‘acts of God’ insurance.

          But this would be very hard on small business. They’d be double dipping to try protect themselves as any insurance retreat played out. Property owners would be in a similar basket. Lawyers will feast off corporate clients legally bound by shareholders to protect their assets. Insurance companies will drown in litigation.

          We could target tax avoiding multinationals who operate inside NZ. It’s time they paid their way.

  17. Observer Tokoroa 17

    Who should end a Person’s Life ?

    in my view, only the person who owns that Life !
    It should never be ended by the Government. Or self appointed merci killers.

    In fact, Assisted Death should be against the Law. For it places the burden on some person who must find deadly drugs and administer them, at their personal discretion.

    Whereas, a Doctor caring for a registered patient will ensure satisfactory pain relief and continued care until the Patient passes away.

    The Doctor method helps to remove family hostility over wills and such. It also allows people to reflect over Life itself. For Life is an Extraordinary Gift, There is nothing that matches it !

    • The Chairman 17.1

      The way I see it, it is the right of the individual to decide when and if they want to end it. Regardless if they require assistance.

      It’s a personal choice.

    • I guess everyone should be chuffed that you’ve decided what’s good for them, your highness. Now we all have certainty!

    • cleangreen 17.3

      Thank you Observer Tokoroa.

      ‘Just walk a mile in my shoes’; – and most will understand your logic there.

    • Bazza64 17.4

      Yes life is an extraordinary gift, but for some the end bit can be very painful. Not sure why we shouldn’t allow people to get assistance for the late stage of terminal illness.

      • cleangreen 17.4.1

        Bazza 64.

        Mr Schwass I presume?

        I don’t disagree Barry, – folks can request assistance if they choose.

        But making a law and mandating bills are not the way forward here,

        Because we want less government not more.

        • Bazza64 17.4.1.1

          Who’s mr Schwass ? Agree less government a good idea.

          Plenty of useless ministries we could do without – then we could have a tax cut (or fund some decent cancer drugs)

          • cleangreen 17.4.1.1.1

            Sorry Bazza, 64

            I thought you may have been an old mate of mine from HB and now lives in central rural HB now and he would be around 64.

            Yes I agree there are plenty of low class politicians and ministries now at parliament.

        • Psycho Milt 17.4.1.2

          I don’t disagree Barry, – folks can request assistance if they choose.

          Er, no, they can’t. That’s what this bill you’re so vehemently opposed to is for.

          Because we want less government not more.

          Less government could include, for example, removing existing legislative barriers to physician-assisted suicide, thus removing the dead hand of the state from the matter and leaving it up to the individuals involved. Less government and no more need for Seymour’s bill – it’s a win-win!

          • cleangreen 17.4.1.2.1

            Crap Psycho Milt

            You manufacture most of it here, by saying remove barriers from doctors killing patients as we are advocating to offering effective treatments to keep treating of sick people,back to a better life. you don’t want that? how sad and sick that is.

            I have already said we have a broken health system and you want less effective treatments from doctors???

            Stupid idea.

            look back to 14.3.1.1.1 what I advocate for to save lives not kill people as you want.

            Live and learn fool.

  18. Drowsy M. Kram 18

    It’s not my intention to offend others with this comment; my sincere apologies to any who do take offense.

    I’m personally in favour of legislation that affords me the choice of death with dignity. I acknowledge the legitimate concerns of those that genuinely feel the proposed legislation might somehow be used to target and/or pressure them or others into an early grave.

    IMHO there are enough precedents around the world to learn from and get the NZ legislation right. To my mind the biggest threat is not the remote possibility that individuals will be murdered due to the direct application of legislation. There may be a handful of examples where that has happened in other jurisdictions, but the frequency might be similar to that of a serious adverse reaction or death due to vaccination.

    My greatest concern is that individuals with feelings of low self worth, those who feel they are a burden, or who worry (or know) that others regard them as burdensome, will use this legislation themselves to ‘stop being a burden‘. I hope that the legislation can be drafted in such a way as to make it clear that feeling you are a burden, or feeling that others regard you as a burden, are never acceptable reasons to request assistance to end your life.

    I don’t know enough to know if such drafting is possible, but surely this must have been a significant concern in the many countries and states that now have assisted suicide or euthanasia legislation in place.

    Alternatively, we could wait another decade and see how the legislation to allow assisted suicide in the state of Victoria, due to come into force later this year, pans out. Melbourne’s only a stone’s throw away.

    • Muttonbird 18.1

      I don’t think you can legislate against the human emotion of the vulnerable. That’s the problem with this whole idea.

      It’s also weird how David Seymour is obsessed with tropes of death. He’s determined to have a pathway to suicide at the same time as advocating for the continued use of killing machines in the form of semi-automatic weapons.

      I don’t want him making decisions for New Zealanders, and with 0.5% of the party vote, neither do New Zealanders!

      John Key unleashed this ghoulish nutter upon us – yet another mark against him. 😡

    • SPC 18.2

      If its similar legislation maybe. We get to vote on it the following year in 2020.

      Given

      1. NZ First have pledged support as long as a referendum is attached to the bill and Seymour intends to put up an amendment suggesting a referendum should the bill clear second reading.

      2. Seymour now supports an amendment to restrict it to those with a terminal illness (first reading included those with a grievous condition) to die with assistance.

      It’s likely to get parliamentary sign off and go to a referendum.

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