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Open mike 10/03/2016

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, March 10th, 2016 - 112 comments
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112 comments on “Open mike 10/03/2016 ”

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  1. Tautoko Mangō Mata 1
    10 March 2016 at 7:37 am

    TPP Just in case you missed it late yesterday, and because
    Submissions are due by
    5pm on Wednesday, 30 March 2016     I am repeating this post.

    Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Paul Goldsmith today released a consultation document showing how the Government proposes to implement the intellectual property changes required to ratify the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPP).

    “While most of the provisions are consistent with New Zealand’s existing intellectual property settings, some changes to our laws will be required before we can ratify the final agreement.

    “Releasing the consultation document shows how the changes could be implemented and allows for public comment and input before legislation is introduced to Parliament.

    “The changes include a revised regime for technological protection measures, or digital locks, patent term extensions in certain situations when there are unreasonable delays in examining the patent or getting regulatory approval, a more extensive performers’ rights regime and new powers for Customs to detain goods that infringe copyright or registered trademarks.

    “TPP has been the most widely-consulted Free Trade Agreement in New Zealand’s history and I encourage New Zealanders with an interest in intellectual property to have their say,” Mr Goldsmith says.

    The intellectual property changes will be included in a bill covering all domestic legislative changes required to ratify TPP. This bill is expected to be introduced to Parliament this year.

    https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/consulting-tpp%E2%80%99s-intellectual-property-implementation

    To read the consultation document and provide a submission go to http://www.mbie.govt.nz/info-services/business/intellectual-property/tpp-intellectual-property-chapter/implementation-consultation.

    (my bold and italics)
    Goodie bags FFS! Like a child’s birthday party!

    “TPP representatives walk away with NZ goodie bag”
    Why is taxpayers’ money being spent on an agreement designed to transfer some of the taxpayers’ rights to large foreign corporations? Did the corporations provide any money for this or just the taxpayer? OIA request?
    Read more: http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/tpp-representatives-walk-away-with-nz-goodie-bag-2016030923#ixzz42QrXfeuC

    • Tautoko Mangō Mata 1.1
      10 March 2016 at 8:15 am

      “New Report on Trans-Pacific Partnership Trade Deal Raises Serious Concerns about Corporate Misalignment”

      BERKELEY, Calif., March 9, 2016 /PRNewswire/ — A new report by the Haas Institute for a Fair and Inclusive Society at the University of California, Berkeley finds that the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), the mega-regional trade deal, raises serious concerns about how a world economy reregulated to suit corporate interests would undermine public accountability, transparency, and democratic participation.

      Co-authored by john a. powell, Elsadig Elsheikh, and Hossein Ayazi, the Haas Institute’s analysis underscores how the TPP would grant greater transnational corporate influence over the fate of one third of all world trade, with TPP signatory members producing 40 percent of all global economic output.

      The TPP’s nuanced provisions will give corporations the power to evade environmental regulations, bypass national courts and override governments, and control workers’ movements throughout the TPP countries.

      Since the release of TPP text, debate has emerged over whether the trade deal will, in fact, stimulate economic growth and create jobs or violate labor laws and tank the economies of developing nations. While these discussions address important concerns, they have also overshadowed the deeper implications of the TPP. If it passes, the TPP would threaten key democratic principles, such as transparency and public accountability.

      http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/new-report-on-trans-pacific-partnership-trade-deal-raises-serious-concerns-about-corporate-misalignment-300233471.html

    • greywarshark 2.1
      10 March 2016 at 11:49 am

      The USA is a degenerate society. That is why people don’t feel safe and have to carry guns. And they are so inward looking that the woman has a photo of her wearing makeup, a chosen outfit with expensive hat and large gun, and considers it a good thing to publish not an example of the endtimes for the country.

      And what values has she to teach her wee son. She is bereft of them, living in a nation, that tries to keep it glossy on top but underneath is a simmering lot of sewage which is as full of toxic things as Flint water, and can never be cleansed and drunk safely. Probably the problem is their own polluted drinking water is driving them round the bend.

      • Andre 2.1.1
        10 March 2016 at 12:04 pm

        I’m a bit more hopeful that the increased militancy we’re seeing with gun owners in the US is a sign that they realize their fetish is becoming socially unacceptable and on the way out. Kinda like how smokers got really militant in the 80s and early 90s. Certainly the statistics are clear that there’s fewer gun owners, but the remaining gun owners have a lot more guns.

      • greywarshark 2.1.2
        10 March 2016 at 12:51 pm

        I had to laugh about my comment above. it reads like some communist propaganda from a story I am reading written by Colin Cotterill which is in Laos, but involve Vietnamese, Thai and Chinese in differing numbers.

        Unfortunately I do think this about USA though I’m not a communist, probably more of a humanist. And believing in good for people generally and for oneself is the sort of value that I think is important.

        • Rosie 2.1.2.1
          10 March 2016 at 1:36 pm

          🙂 After reading your posts for a few years grey, I’d agree you’re a humanist.

          A thoughtful and reflective humanist.

          • greywarshark 2.1.2.1.1
            10 March 2016 at 10:13 pm

            Thanks Rosie. I think your judgment would be right. I hadn’t thought much about it, except I knew what I didn’t like, which narrowed things down.

            And TC I will. I never did see it originally, and hey it isn’t out of date by the sounds of it.

      • TC 2.1.3
        10 March 2016 at 2:24 pm

        Go and watch ‘bowling for columbine’ , 14 years old now.

        Moore does a subtle and effective job of highlighting some of the reasons for a gun toting society that lives in fear of each other.

    • One Two 2.2
      10 March 2016 at 2:28 pm

      Gloating over a tragic event. That is what you have done

      • McFlock 2.2.1
        10 March 2016 at 2:35 pm

        “tragic”? She isn’t dead, and was upright and alert, and the kid probably has minimal understanding (if any) of what happened. And the irony can be cut with a knife.

        “tragic” is the 9 year old who was given an uzi on full auto and accidentally killed her instructor because she was too small to handle the recoil.

      • greywarshark 2.2.2
        10 March 2016 at 10:09 pm

        OneTwo
        I recognise your ploy. It gets used regularly by RW here. The emotional content of some tragedy is turned on to high, and swamps every attempt to treat the matter both humanely and rationally. Each ongoing tragedy is received more emotionally, and people are paralysed by grief and stress and cannot be allowed to concentrate on how to prevent the next tragedy.

  3. saveNZ 3
    10 March 2016 at 8:23 am

    C’mon Folks – make sure you make a submission on TPP. The MSM are publicising that only a few people are opposed and protesting at the Roadshows….

    The current closing date for public submissions on the TPP is Friday March 11th.

    http://itsourfuture.org.nz/take-action/

    • greywarshark 3.1
      10 March 2016 at 10:10 am

      I’ll drag myself to once again into the fray, against TPPA. Look at the hidden message in the link: It_sour_future. So on top of all the other things I try to do, to help community and keep NZ from being mean, I will do it. Thanks for backgrounding and informing saveNZ.

  4. saveNZ 4
    10 March 2016 at 8:36 am

    We want our taxpayers money going on health and schools, not Kangaroo IDS court lawyers….

    http://www.isdscorporateattacks.org/#!basics/c66t

  5. lprent 5
    10 March 2016 at 8:37 am

    Server now up to date.

  6. vto 6
    10 March 2016 at 8:53 am

    So Todd Barclay is of sufficient age, 23 years, to decide that those under a certain age, 25 years, are not eligible to adopt.

    how does that work?

    cuckoo cuckoo

      • vto 6.1.1
        10 March 2016 at 9:35 am

        All good then, except that the point above still stands.

        People under 25 can decide whether people under 25 are of insufficient capacity.

        Clearly a gigantic nonsense. But in existence. And the gigantic nonsense is supported by many people around here ….

        • Rosie 6.1.1.1
          10 March 2016 at 9:43 am

          Just pointing out the technicality vto.

          So is the kid on some sort of committee looking at adoption age law changes or is it just his personal opinion or something? I’m not aware of the context. I have heard there are some odd anomalies around adoption.

          • vto 6.1.1.1.1
            10 March 2016 at 10:07 am

            No, no context personal to Barclay – the rather large technicality that permits an MP of age 23 to decide (vote) on an issue concerning capacity of someone aged under 25….

            hence the cuckoos in la-la land

            • weka 6.1.1.1.1.1
              10 March 2016 at 12:40 pm

              Oh, good, male MPs won’t be voting on abortion law any more. Excellent.

              • vto …
                10 March 2016 at 12:42 pm

                except when it is a male being aborted of course

                • weka …
                  10 March 2016 at 12:51 pm

                  That’s a different argument. We’re talking about civilised countries that are pro-choice. Why should men have a say beyond that if a 23 yr old shouldn’t vote on legislation affecting 24/25 yr olds?

                  You can’t have it both ways.

                  • vto …
                    10 March 2016 at 12:54 pm

                    conflator conflatee conflataaarrrr…. yeeaahh…. tra la la la life goes on

                    • weka …
                      10 March 2016 at 1:00 pm

                      giving up so soon vto?

                      that’s not what conflating means btw. I made a straight out comparison. Feel free to explain why it’s invalid if you can.

                    • vto …
                      10 March 2016 at 1:05 pm

                      Yours was the different argument weka.

                      Once you have answered the original question about age …… how is that justified? You know, that someone under 25 can decide if people under 25 are capable?

                      It is a nonsense.

                      Happy to hear an explanation in justification. Because the answer will surely provide some guidance to your male/abort question too……. come on …….

                    • weka …
                      10 March 2016 at 1:12 pm

                      You think it’s a nonsense but you haven’t said why. Go on, have a go and see if you can explain your thinking.

                      It’s justified because (I’m assuming) anyone aged 18 or older can stand for parliament.

                    • vto …
                      10 March 2016 at 1:20 pm

                      sheesh weka have you ever studied maths or logic? you have completely and utterly missed the point

                      let’s leave it for now – I have to rush out shortly and now you have me all confused and will need to be careful I don’t drive the wrong side of the road backwards …

                    • weka …
                      10 March 2016 at 1:29 pm

                      When you come back, just start again. Make the statement about Barclay and then say what the problem is and how it it a problem. If you read back through the thread, you never said.

            • Rosie 6.1.1.1.1.2
              10 March 2016 at 1:46 pm

              Lols. I’m still not with you. Are you suggesting an MP should be excluded from voting on age related legislation whether it be adoption, minimum purchase age for alcohol or anything, because of ….their age?

              And if theres no such bills before parliament at the moment is your question more hypothetical than anything?

              I really liked the cuckoo’s btw. Nice touch. 😀

  7. saveNZ 7
    10 March 2016 at 8:58 am

    “Metalclad v. Mexico
    Toxic waste
    Investor win (awarded $16.2 million)

    In 1997 Metalclad Corporation, a U.S. waste management firm, launched a NAFTA investor-state dispute against Mexico over the decision of Guadalcazar, a Mexican municipality, not to grant a construction permit for expansion of a toxic waste facility amid concerns of water contamination and other environmental and health hazards. Studies indicated that the site’s soils were very unstable, which could permit toxic waste to infiltrate the subsoil and carry contamination via deeper water sources. The local government had already denied similar permits to the Mexican firm from which Metalclad acquired the facility. Metalclad argued that the decision to deny a permit to it, as a foreign investor operating under NAFTA’s investor rights, amounted to expropriation without compensation, and a denial of NAFTA’s guarantee of “fair and equitable treatment.”

    The tribunal ruled in favor of the firm, ordering Mexico to compensate Metalclad for the diminution of its investment’s value. The order to compensate for a “regulatory taking” was premised on the tribunal’s finding that the denial of the construction permit unless and until the site was remediated amounted to an “indirect” expropriation. The tribunal also ruled that Mexico violated NAFTA’s obligation to provide foreign investors “fair and equitable treatment,” because the firm was not granted a “transparent and predictable” regulatory environment. The decision has been described as creating a duty under NAFTA for the Mexican government to walk a foreign investor through the complexities of municipal, state and federal law and to ensure that officials at different levels never give different advice. After a Canadian court slightly modified the compensation amount ordered by the investor-state tribunal, Mexico was required to pay Metalclad more than $16 million.”

    http://www.isdscorporateattacks.org/#!environment/c1wa0

    • greywarshark 7.1
      10 March 2016 at 9:54 am

      Thanx for that important info savenNZ What we ‘The Gullibles’ need to know.

    • ianmac 7.2
      10 March 2016 at 10:41 am

      Crikey. Fined $16million for acting to protect a water supply and no appeal allowed. TPPA beware!

  8. vto 8
    10 March 2016 at 9:11 am

    Yesterday Bill English admitted on NatRadio that pretty much all dairy farmers have been conducting their business to make money by way of capital gain rather than revenue….

    These people need to account for that money in their income tax returns then.

    and not be dirty tax-dodging bludgers ….

    Bill English said it, not me…

    will IRD ignore this?

    • tinfoilhat 8.1
      10 March 2016 at 11:55 am

      Isn’t the capital gain only realised when they sell up ?

      • vto 8.1.1
        10 March 2016 at 12:17 pm

        Yes. Depends on how it is treated. Some regimes don’t require realisation before charging, others do. Michael Cullen seemed to think taxing before realisation was ok, personally I think it is a bit nuts.

        Of course shortly there will be plenty of losses to counter gains anyway ….

      • Draco T Bastard 8.1.2
        10 March 2016 at 1:57 pm

        Probably realised when they go out and borrow huge amounts more money on the farm.

  9. greywarshark 9
    10 March 2016 at 9:56 am

    vto
    No, silly. It’s just ‘good’ business practice!

    • vto 9.1
      10 March 2016 at 12:18 pm

      Ha, yep like those people who manage to manufacture disabilities to make claims are simply indulging in ‘good’ income practice. They have clearly learned from Bill English and his types.

  10. greywarshark 10
    10 March 2016 at 10:05 am

    On RADIONZ this morning. About keeping young offenders out of the Courts and injustice treadmill.

    09:20 How iwi led justice panels are keeping offenders away from crime
    Funding is due to soon run out for three iwi led panels, which offer an alternative justice system for low level offenders.
    The three panels, in Lower Hutt, Gisborne and Counties Manukau, were set up in 2014, with the objective of diverting low-level offenders away from crime, and keep them out of the criminal justice system.
    The Justice Ministry has yet to decide whether it will continue funding them, saying while it appreciates the groundswell of enthusiasm, it has to consider the role and fit of the panels in the wider criminal justice system. Neville Baker is the chair of the Waiwhetu iwi led panel. Asher Hauwaho is the Iwi Liaison Officer for the Lower Hutt police.

    Need more money, thank you very much, from the government. This citizen here says that time spent with young people having difficulties, helping them so they overcome their problems and limit reoffending to minor infringements, will save our tax dollars, my tax dollars, at present 15% on everything I buy., plus the cents tax you take off my small savings, and anything you get back from my taxable pension. (Don’t abandon programs for young people who are recidivists. If the offending comes down to really minor offences, it will stop as they get older. Just believe it is a good thing to do to work with them, and keep it going. It will prove a big saving and a big boost to the individual life.)

    WhichAt present money received goes mostly on your and your servants’ salaries, and to the pockets of your business class running the prisons, the old people’s homes, and who knows what else you are going to hive off so you are paid for doing nothing useful for we the citizens.
    Contemptible curs you are.
    edited

  11. greywarshark 11
    10 March 2016 at 10:59 am

    Up to $7280 pledged for benighted journalist Bradley Ambrose. Going to 11 pm on Wednesday 16 March in his effort to raise for court fees – $38,000. I think Give a Little gives whatever is raised to the person, others only pay if target is reached. I could be wrong, but I should think anything would be helpful to him.
    https://givealittle.co.nz/cause/bradelyambrose
    There is the link.

    Put in a bit and you are doing something to stir things along against this government. The link to the post on The Standard tells more:

    Crowdfunding for Bradley Ambrose’s defamation case against John Key

  12. Sirenia 12
    10 March 2016 at 11:10 am

    The disability hate-speech enabler is on Radio NZ’s Panel today. I suppose they have to have him on to keep their funding.

  13. paaparakauta 13
    10 March 2016 at 11:14 am

    A MESSAGE FROM THE QUEEN
    To the citizens of the United States of America from Her Sovereign
    Majesty Queen Elizabeth II
    In light of your failure in recent years to nominate competent
    candidates for President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves,
    we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence,
    effective immediately. (You should look up ‘revocation’ in the
    Oxford English Dictionary.)
    Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical
    duties over all states, commonwealths, and territories (except
    North Dakota, which she does not fancy).
    Your new Prime Minister, David Cameron, will appoint a
    Governor for America without the need for further elections.
    Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire may
    be circulated next year to determine whether any of you noticed.
    To aid in the transition to a British Crown dependency, the
    following rules are introduced with immediate effect:
    ———————–
    1. The letter ‘U’ will be reinstated in words such as ‘colour,’
    ‘favour,’ ‘labour’ and ‘neighbour.’ Likewise, you will learn to spell
    ‘doughnut’ without skipping half the letters, and the suffix ‘-ize’
    will be replaced by the suffix ‘-ise.’ Generally, you will be expected
    to raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. (look up
    ‘vocabulary’).
    ————————
    2. Using the same twenty-seven words interspersed with filler
    noises such as ”like’ and ‘you know’ is an unacceptable and
    inefficient form of communication. There is no such thing as U.S.
    English. We will let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft
    spell-checker will be adjusted to take into account the reinstated
    letter ‘u” and the elimination of ‘-ize.’
    ——————-
    3. July 4th will no longer be celebrated as a holiday.
    —————–
    4. You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns,
    lawyers, or therapists. The fact that you need so many lawyers andtherapists shows that you’re not quite ready to be independent.
    Guns should only be used for shooting grouse. If you can’t sort
    things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist, then
    you’re not ready to shoot grouse.
    ———————-
    5. Therefore, you will no longer be allowed to own or carry
    anything more dangerous than a vegetable peeler. Although a
    permit will be required if you wish to carry a vegetable peeler in
    public.
    ———————-
    6. All intersections will be replaced with roundabouts, and you will
    start driving on the left side with immediate effect. At the same
    time, you will go metric with immediate effect and without the
    benefit of conversion tables. Both roundabouts and metrication will
    help you understand the British sense of humour.
    ——————–
    7. The former USA will adopt UK prices on petrol (which you have
    been calling gasoline) of roughly $10/US gallon. Get used to it.
    ——————-
    8. You will learn to make real chips. Those things you call French
    fries are not real chips, and those things you insist on calling potato
    chips are properly called crisps. Real chips are thick cut, fried in
    animal fat, and dressed not with catsup but with vinegar.
    ——————-
    9. The cold, tasteless stuff you insist on calling beer is not actually
    beer at all. Henceforth, only proper British Bitter will be referred to
    as beer, and European brews of known and accepted provenance
    will be referred to as Lager. South African beer is also acceptable,
    as they are pound for pound the greatest sporting nation on earth
    and it can only be due to the beer. They are also part of the British
    Commonwealth – see what it did for them. American brands will
    be referred to as Near-Frozen Gnat’s Urine, so that all can be sold
    without risk of further confusion.
    ———————
    10. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors
    as good guys. Hollywood will also be required to cast Englishactors to play English characters. Watching Andie Macdowell
    attempt English dialect in Four Weddings and a Funeral was an
    experience akin to having one’s ears removed with a cheese grater.
    ———————
    11. You will cease playing American football. There is only one
    kind of proper football; you call it soccer. Those of you brave
    enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which has some
    similarities to American football, but does not involve stopping for
    a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour
    like a bunch of nancies).
    ———————
    12. Further, you will stop playing baseball. It is not reasonable to
    host an event called the World Series for a game which is not
    played outside of America. Since only 2.1% of you are aware there
    is a world beyond your borders, your error is understandable. You
    will learn cricket, and we will let you face the South Africans first
    to take the sting out of their deliveries.
    ——————–
    13.. You must tell us who killed JFK. It’s been driving us mad.
    —————–
    14. An internal revenue agent (i.e. tax collector) from Her Majesty’s
    Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of
    all monies due (backdated to 1776).
    —————
    15. Daily Tea Time begins promptly at 4 p.m. with proper cups,
    with saucers, and never mugs, with high quality biscuits (cookies)
    and cakes; plus strawberries (with cream) when in season.
    God Save the Queen!
    PS: Only share this with friends who have a good sense of humour
    (NOT humor)

  14. greywarshark 14
    10 March 2016 at 11:25 am

    I’m just reading Affluenza by Oliver James. I had heard it being bandied about and have come to believe that there is a change that develops when we become affluent and able to stand unsupported. We think we are better and separate from the rest of our society. Hah. James is looking at the process. He calls it the Affluenza Virus. The WHO records that there is a lot of distress in developed countries. James describes it as being caused by the Virus.

    He calls it Selfish Capitalism and says – I mean four basic things.
    The first is that the success of businesses is judged almost exclusively by their current share price.
    The second is a strong drive to privatise public utilities, such as water, gas and electricity, or in the case of America, to keep them in private hands.
    The third is that there should be as little regulation of business as possible, with taxation for the rich and very rich so limited that whether to contribute becomes almost a matter of choice.
    The fourth is the conviction that consumption and market forces can meet human needs of almost every kind.
    America is the apotheosis of Selfish Capitalism, Denmark the nearest thing to its Unselfish opposite.

    (That sounds to me how our country is operated. I think our governments have dived into this Selfish thing like Grandpa McDuck dived into his golden money pile!

    He writes further that materialism is strong in the poor, because every dollar counts, there is rarely enough, the work is precarious, and everything received can help, if everything isn’t budgeted for, there will be days when there is literally no food etc.
    But when there is sufficient and more, and materialism still reigns then society deteriorates.)

    The Selfish Virus causes distress like this:

    It impedes the meeting of our fundamental human needs: feeling secure, being part of a community, feeling competent, and being autonomous and authentic. A large body of scientific evidence suggests…the Virus impairs the meeting of each need.

  15. weka 15
    10 March 2016 at 12:46 pm

    Here’s an example of a brilliant young woman being an excellent MP at age 20. See, it can be done.

    Mhairi Black’s maiden speech,

    • vto 15.1
      10 March 2016 at 12:52 pm

      You’re a good googler… Have you ever heard the saying about the exception that proves the rule?

      Not sure how this helps the issue, but would be keen to see a credible answer to the point above about how an MP aged under 25 can decide (vote) that people under 25 are of insufficient capacity to adopt…

      • weka 15.1.1
        10 March 2016 at 1:02 pm

        Why don’t you start with explaining why you think it’s a problem? Then we’d know what you are talking about.

        • vto 15.1.1.1
          10 March 2016 at 1:08 pm

          No, don’t avoid the question again. Whether it is a problem or not is separate. And I know you like throwing out the old “don’t what you’re talking about” banana skin but it is a falseity ….

          The question again;

          How is it that someone aged under 25 can decide (vote) on whether people under 25 are capable or not?

          • weka 15.1.1.1.1
            10 March 2016 at 1:16 pm

            The answer is simple, he’s a legally elected representative and entitled to vote. His age is irrelevant to that. I really don’t get what your problem is.

            • vto 15.1.1.1.1.1
              10 March 2016 at 1:21 pm

              it is a circular logic thing

              maybe there are bigger brains around here who can pinpoint the descriptor for this …

              • weka …
                10 March 2016 at 1:28 pm

                In other words you’re objecting to something without knowing why. Or you’re being weasly and refusing to say what you think because you know you will get argued with. Neither are hardly the basis for useful political debate.

                • vto …
                  10 March 2016 at 1:42 pm

                  no no not at all – just looking for the technical description of this phenomenon which will help you understand it . Later

                  • weka …
                    10 March 2016 at 1:58 pm

                    oks.

                    • Redelusion …
                      10 March 2016 at 3:20 pm

                      Weka he is been cute, from a logic point of view your statement is a circular argument , ie you are asking some one under 25 wether people under 25 are capable, by definition they can’t answer that question because you don’t know if their capable because there under 25?

                    • weka …
                      10 March 2016 at 10:05 pm

                      I think 23 yr olds can be capable of making good MPs so it’s a nonsense argument to me. Vto seems to be arguing some principle and conflating that with his opinion that a young MP can’t do a good job because of their age.

                      Being an MP at 23 is not the same as adoption. But really the whole discussion is daft because the law as it stands is old and out dated and a report wants it to change to take the discriminatory aspects out. How Barclay would not be competent to vote in that because of his age is beyond me.

                    • vto …
                      11 March 2016 at 6:47 am

                      Hi weka – red delusion, grindlebottom and mr munro below have said it in slightly different ways that hopefully make sense to you. It was a curiousity, and illogicality.

                      It is a logical fallacy that the law both allows a person to decide (vote) that a person under 25 is incapable, but be capable enough to make that decision.

                      That is the problem.

                      But in further curiousity, it also highlights another discrepancy between our societies ways today and traditional ways borne out over long history …… whereby age was a factor in competency to a far greater extent than it is today. Two examples being – leaders of communities have typically been described as the “elders” (indicating the age factor), and secondly, this particular example whereby past NZ society has deemed people under 25 incapable of adopting.

                      This is just history. It is curious that we seem to think we are superior to this aspect of human history… time will tell whether we are right today (curiously enough)..

                      One final aspect – of course in societies past, far fewer people lived to a decent age, so the “elders” may have typically been in their 30’s, or heaven forbid their 20’s.

                      and one more final aspect – with my too many years on the planet my personal view is that age, combined with thinking (…), adds immeasurably to so very much of life. That time and experience is something that cannot be gained in other ways by most people. I do not value the views of the young on various relevant issues, to anything like the extent I value the views of the elders (subject to cogency etc..). This is my experience … and this would seem to be the experience of much of past societies too, given the prevalence of age in these matters …..

                      … now back to my weetbix

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    10 March 2016 at 2:27 pm

                    It’s a kind of authority-based hypocrisy, as far as I can judge.

                    Basically, I have the power of the establishment on my side so I can tell you what to do or not do.

                    • Grindlebottom …
                      10 March 2016 at 10:29 pm

                      I don’t think he’s making an argument, I think he accepts a 23 year old can and will vote on the issue.

                      He’s just got it in his head that saying someone under 25 can decide whether someone else under 25 is capable of adopting looks to him like circular reasoning, a logical fallacy of some kind, and he wonders (out of curiosity) what kind it is.

                      If I’m right, the problem is that it’s a fallacy that this is a logical fallacy.

                  • greywarshark …
                    10 March 2016 at 6:00 pm

                    Hi vto
                    I think the argument for it is that it is the exception that proves the rule.
                    But if there were too many under 25’s, when would it stop being an exception? Would it be decided on proportionality, the same percentage in parliament, as the percentage of potentital under 25 voters. There is a lot to take in for someone that young who hasn’t lived long. So that is a mark against too many youth. Also they stop learning I think, and don’t do their own but the thinking bidden by their Party, so starting too young may see a dull old dog or bitch by the time they retire if they stay at heel for too long. One mark against career pollies.

                    Then again some older people don’t seem to have lived and learned despite all their years. They have set out with their gladstone bag full of precepts and prejudices and never had them washed and ironed throughout their whole lives. Our local MP Nick Smith has been in Parliament since he was a fresh faced youngster and the job has aged him, but I don’t know if it’s added to his wisdom.

                    I see Stuart M has put up a lively answer. I thought it was simpler than that – that if you say you are making an exception, that implies that there is a rule to which the present matter is different but is being allowed, thus it is being made one exception to the (normal and accepted) rule. Thus, the exception proves the rule.
                    edited

                    • RedBaronCV …
                      10 March 2016 at 8:40 pm

                      In the case of Nick Smith .. er what wisdom?

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      10 March 2016 at 10:27 pm

                      Nick Smith is a good Minister, by National standards.

                    • vto …
                      11 March 2016 at 6:51 am

                      hi mr grey, I have tried to explain again just above, hopefully makes sense …

                      Woody Allen gets the last say…

                      “In my next life I want to live my life backwards. You start out dead and get that out of the way. Then you wake up in an old people’s home feeling better every day. You get kicked out for being too healthy, go collect your pension, and then when you start work, you get a gold watch and a party on your first day. You work for 40 years until you’re young enough to enjoy your retirement. You party, drink alcohol, and are generally promiscuous, then you are ready for high school. You then go to primary school, you become a kid, you play. You have no responsibilities, you become a baby until you are born. And then you spend your last 9 months floating in luxurious spa-like conditions with central heating and room service on tap, larger quarters every day and then Voila! You finish off as an orgasm!”

                    • greywarshark …
                      11 March 2016 at 12:08 pm

                      @vto
                      Thanks for Woody Allen I’ve grabbed that for further reading. Seems like a gem, that will amuse me for some years even.

      • weka 15.1.2
        10 March 2016 at 1:07 pm

        “Have you ever heard the saying about the exception that proves the rule?”

        Marilyn Waring

        Jacinda Ardern

        Gareth Hughes

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_of_the_House#New_Zealand

        Someone else can comment on the global list as to whether any of the myriad of young politicians were any good,

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_of_the_House

        • Stuart Munro 15.1.2.1
          10 March 2016 at 1:48 pm

          The exception proves the rule is one of the famous sayings that have come to mean the opposite of what they originally meant. Exceptio probat regulam meant that when you have an apparent exception, you should apply the rule. The convenience to the likes of VTO of this position is it allows him to avoid refutation by what is effectively a selective use of the excluded middle. Something is something, or it is not.

          Under 25s are capable of good judgment, or they are not. We have several instances of under 25s with good judgment, so the generalisation is unsound. But qualifying it might redeem it ‘many under 25s are not capable of good judgement’ is probably tenable.

          The other inverted saying was Solon’s ‘A moral man is a law unto himself’ – the point being that moral persons are genuinely self-policing to some degree. The modern meaning refers to someone who does whatever they want – like our despicable substitute for a PM.

          VTO is pointing to a Cretan liar’s paradox – “All Cretans are liars” says a Cretan, and the expectation is that the statement must be untrue. The paradox only works in an abstract situation because to be a liar only requires occasional lying. Thus a person under 25 could have inadequate judgment but still make the occasional good decision – as seems likely given that the police are now scheduled to investigate Todd Barclay. http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/375835/todd-barclay-electorate-staff-member-talk-police

          • weka 15.1.2.1.1
            10 March 2016 at 10:25 pm

            Crikey, is that a scandal brewing? As Rosie said, bring on Popcorn April. Is that four legal process National will be involved in over the next months?

      • Expat 15.1.3
        10 March 2016 at 2:14 pm

        The question for me is, who decided that you shouldn’t be able to adopt under the age of 25, there are many under 25 who are mature enough to manage the adoption adequately , it’s not the age, it’s the ability to meet the requirements, surely.

        In a democracy, as long as your’e old enough to vote then, your view point should not be dismissed.

        VTO, I agree with your point to a large extent on this issue, if I was interested in adopting, and under 25, does this guy understand (at 23) the issues surrounding adoption, I see your point as 18 year olds voting on lowering the drinking age.

        The point I make above about why there is a need to even make a decision based on age (age of the adopter), it’s discrimination isn’t.

        Surely if you meet the necessary requirements for adoption, age is not a consideration, therefore the argument for voting on the question is irrelevant

        • weka 15.1.3.1
          10 March 2016 at 2:29 pm

          The issue in the news is that a report is saying the current law (which says you can’t adopt if under 25) is outdated and discriminatory (not just the age issue) and should be changed.

          http://www.odt.co.nz/news/politics/375768/call-reform-adoption-laws

          I don’t know what vto’s point is. Barclay may or may not be competent to have a say on this proposed law change, but his age has nothing to do with it.

          The law change would remove the prohibition on his particular age to adopt, so him having a say makes sense at that level anyway.

          • Rosie 15.1.3.1.1
            10 March 2016 at 2:48 pm

            Thanks for answering my question that I asked of vto at round one of this thread, from this morning. I didn’t know whether it was a hypothetical question or related to actual current discussion of adoption law.

            Which brings it back round to my question to him which was

            “Are you suggesting an MP should be excluded from voting on age related legislation whether it be adoption, minimum purchase age for alcohol or anything, because of ….their age?”

            I think, no they shouldn’t be excluded. That in itself would be discrimination.

            Good reminder of Mhairi Black btw. She’s a star.

            • vto 15.1.3.1.1.1
              11 March 2016 at 6:56 am

              Hi Rosie, sorry for missing your question earlier.. it raises the same interesting dilemma regarding age restrictions on anything and everything…

              people around here seem to be saying that age is immaterial

              if that is the case then there are an awful lot of statutes to clear up and remove the discrimination from – alcohol, marriage, sex, war, driving, adoption, school, voting, , ,

              what to do?

              allow the young to decide these matters for themselves? allow the elders to do the deciding?

              it all ends in logical fallacy stew
              seriously though, what should we do

          • Expat 15.1.3.1.2
            10 March 2016 at 5:33 pm

            Weka

            Thanks for that, I wasn’t fully aware of the issue, so sounds like perhaps he should have a say and condemn two age discrimination issues at the same time, but regarding Barclay’s competency, in a democracy, he can’t be discriminated against for being incompetent either.

    • Expat 16.1
      10 March 2016 at 1:46 pm

      Don’t listen to, or watch him, the only ones who do are wankers.

      • weka 16.1.1
        10 March 2016 at 2:02 pm

        That’s a petition calling for Hoskings to apologise or be sacked for calling returned servicemen morons for having an opion about the flag. Seems important.

        • Expat 16.1.1.1
          10 March 2016 at 2:23 pm

          Yeah, the petition is important, to counter the absolute stupidity of the man, but he’s not important, anyone with only half a brain would switch off after only listening to him for a few seconds of his dribble, I don’t know anyone who could say he represents their view points, except for maybe the PM.

          • weka 16.1.1.1.1
            10 March 2016 at 2:30 pm

            True, I don’t watch him. I think the petition deserved to be highlighted separately to that.

            • Tony Veitch (not the partner-bashing 3rd rate broadcaster) 16.1.1.1.1.1
              10 March 2016 at 5:14 pm

              Does anybody?

              At seven I’m on The Daily Blog for some ‘real’ discussion on problems of this country,

              Isn’t everybody?

      • Mark Stevens 16.1.2
        10 March 2016 at 2:03 pm

        I don’t even watch tv, got this off a facebook feed.

      • Draco T Bastard 16.1.3
        10 March 2016 at 2:15 pm

        +1

    • Rosie 16.2
      10 March 2016 at 2:55 pm

      Thanks. Signed. The guy is a prize jerk, and that was a really offensive thing to say. He should lose his job for a number of reasons, but this is as good as any.

      • TC 16.2.1
        10 March 2016 at 3:35 pm

        That is his job ! Red neck ranting and shilling for national.

        He uses his arrogant smug persona as a substitute for the intellectual rigour long gone from tvnz and enjoys the backing of besties jk.

        • Rosie 16.2.1.1
          10 March 2016 at 3:52 pm

          Oh I know, but it’s up to us to not tolerate it.

          I can’t look at him for a few seconds without my blood pressure going up. A broadcaster should not inspire that reaction in people. A broadcaster should inspire their viewers to have an enquiring mind and a desire to be educated by their investigative journalism…………….

          Oh wait…………..

          • Expat 16.2.1.1.1
            10 March 2016 at 5:05 pm

            Rosie

            “A broadcaster should inspire their viewers to have an inquiring mind and a desire to be educated by their investigative journalism…………….”

            Problem is, who is that broadcaster?, where is that reporter? the free to air ones have gone down the toilet and not even worth watching any more and sky news is Murdoch BS.

            When I was their in Jan, I watched “One” news with “Peter whats his face”, how embarrassing, he looked like a possum about to be hit by a car.

            It’s a real shame we don’t have a public broadcaster modeled on the Aus ABC, providing balanced points of view for the benefit of the viewers, Q & A on the ABC includes 5 or more commentators from a diverse range of fields, beliefs and political persuasions, and the audience (aprox 200) is made up of a proportional amount of each of the 3 main political parties.

            Having said that, Turnbull has replaced some of the key mangers within the ABC, and there has been a slight change in the way in which information is presented in the news, with less criticism of the Govt, you know, change a few of the neutral reporters for ones which are more pro Govt skew.

            The great thing about the ABC is that there is NO commercial advertising at all, it’s free to air in digital right across the country with 4 separate channels at a cost annually of aprox $1B.

            The ABC serves the needs of the Australian people, not the govt.

  17. Chooky 17
    10 March 2016 at 1:24 pm

    ‘ ‘That’s horse sh*t!’: FBI can already unlock iPhone without Apple’s help – Snowden’

    https://www.rt.com/usa/335054-snowden-apple-fbi-fight/

    ‘FBI changes rules on accessing NSA data on Americans, but won’t say how’

    https://www.rt.com/usa/335058-fbi-nsa-rules-americans-surveillance/

    ‘Pentagon admits using drones to spy on Americans’

    https://www.rt.com/usa/335068-pentagon-drones-spy-americans/

    • weka 17.1
      10 March 2016 at 1:33 pm

      I saw that earlier and thought the FBI can’t hack an iphone, yeah right.

      Or maybe it’s like NZ’s SIS who don’t have the fancy gear and so have to team up with the GCSB now 😉

  18. Chooky 18
    10 March 2016 at 1:44 pm

    Better than Icke! ( who is stupid and boring)

    ….Something to watch late at night if you cant sleep…to get yourself really paranoid

    ( but I dont agree with what they said about Queenie…it was a nasty fib!)

    ‘JFK to 911 Everything Is A Rich Man’s Trick’

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1Qt6a-v

    (definitely say “NO” to the TPPA!)

  20. alwyn 20
    10 March 2016 at 2:12 pm

    Oh dear, How embarrassing for ISIS.
    An insider has leaked a list of jihadi recruits to Sky News in Britain.
    Full details of 22,00 of them. Edward Snowden would have been proud of this, I suppose.
    http://news.sky.com/story/1656777/is-registration-forms-identify-22000-jihadis

    • One Two 20.1
      10 March 2016 at 2:35 pm

      So the US UK controllers and agents made a ‘mistake’

      Some propganda is easier to identify

  21. joe90 21
    10 March 2016 at 2:25 pm

    A primer on slavery today.

    It makes sense that slavery and environmental destruction would go hand in hand. In some ways they spring from the same root. Our consumer economy is driven at its most basic level by resource extraction, pulling things from the earth, an extraction that we never actually see. We pull food from the earth, of course, but we also pull our cellphones from the earth, our clothing, our computers, our flat-screen televisions, our cars—it all comes from the earth, ultimately. And pulling things from the earth can be a dirty business. To make our consumer economy hum and grow and instantly gratify, costs are driven down as low as they can go, especially at the bottom of the supply chain; this can lead to abusive conditions for workers and harm to the natural world. Taken to the extreme it means slavery and catastrophic environmental destruction. But all this normally happens far from any prying eyes. It’s a hidden world that keeps its secrets.

    […]

    When it comes to global warming, these slaveholders outpace all but the very biggest polluters. Adding together their slave-based deforestation and other CO2-producing crimes leads to a sobering conclusion. If slavery were an American state it would have the population of California and the economic output of the District of Columbia, but it would be the world’s third-largest producer of CO2, after China and the United States. It’s no wonder that we struggle and often fail to stop climate change and reduce the atmospheric carbon count. Slavery, one of the world’s largest greenhouse gas producers, is hidden from us. Environmentalists are right to call for laws and treaties that will apply to the community of nations, but that is not enough. We also have to understand that slavers—who don’t adhere to those laws and treaties—are a leading cause of the natural world’s destruction. And to stop them, we don’t need more laws. We need to end slavery.

    http://blog.longreads.com/2016/03/08/your-phone-was-made-by-slaves-a-primer-on-the-secret-economy/

    Also – an interview with the author.

    What do the shrimp on your plate, the cell phone in your pocket and the rising pollution levels in the developing world have in common? Kevin Bales says, in a word: slavery. Paul Kennedy talks with the author of Blood and Earth: Modern Slavery, Ecocide and the Secret to Saving the World.

    http://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/blood-and-earth-kevin-bales-1.3442119

    • Rosie 21.1
      10 March 2016 at 3:56 pm

      Thats one sound reason I only have an old dumb phone, slavery and it’s effects, eg early death for for people that extract cobalt from dangerous mines for the phones (and why I don’t eat shrimps from Vietnam).

  22. prickles 22
    10 March 2016 at 3:12 pm

    This from the Sydney Morning Herald today – haven’t seen it reported this side of the Tasman as yet though. http://www.smh.com.au/technology/consumer-security/malware-hijacks-big-four-australian-banks-apps-steals-twofactor-sms-codes-20160309-gnf528.html
    Don’t do your banking from your phone!

    • Rosie 22.1
      10 March 2016 at 4:03 pm

      And another reason I use an old dumb phone. I’ve never being able to trust the security on smart phones. Hackers will always win.

      There are so many benefits to consider by being part of the dumb phone movement. It began as a psycho social issue but it’s really much larger than that.

      • Chooky 22.1.1
        10 March 2016 at 11:44 pm

        +100 Rosie…the dumb phones are best imo…my smart phone stays under the chair and turned off…i reckon the apps my daughter loaded it with are bugged…ha ha

  23. Herodotus 23
    10 March 2016 at 4:53 pm

    Any update on when the case of a prominent northland man is to be heard in the courts ?
    Just thought of this when I was reading about M&M vs Nats

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