Apparently today low income could be getting 1500 a year from Key in 2017. No promises mind and no articles about Key fumbling around over figures and pluckinh them from thin air
RWNJs always sneer and laugh at the mention of a living wage of about $18 and say why not $30 or more an hour as if suggesting any rise is like an irresponsible child wanting more and knowing no limits.
So now they offer the same thinking for lower tax, same airy fairy playing with needs, hopes and expectations with no attempt to seriously consider or cost it.
ANy RWNJs who employ people are welcome to pay $30/hour. Sadly, I think most of the ones who spout garbage on blogs are themselves employees who have bought into the asprishnull dreem. They think if they say the right things, they’ll get a ride in the Merc.
Before posting any further hyperbolic debt concern please read and engage with the following real world example. This shows that as long as NZ continues to operate a central bank the national debt remains a non issue.
Thanks for the link.
One point NZ is a very small economy cf to Japan.
The economy in Japan is much more diverse.
The interest rates in Japan are very small – deposits 0% and mortgage under 1%
Who owns our debt?
It seems to me that he who owns the debt controls.
I guess I just don’t feel comfortable paying in the order of 3b a year (currently) in interest.
“The interest rates in Japan are very small – deposits 0% and mortgage under 1%.”
Well since apparently you don’t know, interest rates are effectively set by the central bank. If the RBNZ wants interest rates at or near those levels it can achieve them. Thats the same thing as controlling the official cash rate in NZ. The linked discussion actually explained this point.
“Who owns our debt? It seems to me that he who owns the debt controls.”
The discussion on that link also touched on this. The central bank of Japan is currently reducing the govts debt levels by buying up govt debt while setting the interest rate it wants. Potential debt buyers have a simple choice, lend to the govt at the interest rate controlled by the central bank or sit on their cash and receive no interest. Clearly they control diddly squat.
I was hoping to avoid going through a rather tired discussion of these points when I suggested you engage with that material. Unfortunately the only new area raised (the relative size of the Japenese and NZ economies) elicits no reason to think this would be a problem either.
It remains clear when operating a central bank govt debt remains a non issue based on the points you raised here and this real world example.
I think K DotCom is right. Our PM could be videoed shooting and killing kittens and it wouldn’t make a difference.
The thing that bothers me is that it is probably inevitable that someone on the left will take money (if anyone would offer it) to replicate Slater and Farrar et al’s tactics because it is seen to “work”. The idea that Slater and Farrar or Hooton know that Labour is doing it but have held back releasing proof is laughable. I am just surprised none of them (Slater) have made stuff up.
I dont care who is behaving in the manner revealed in Dirty Politics it threatens all of us and our future generations. It deprives us of genuine democracy and that means we are ultimately left with an illusion of genuine freedom of choice.
There is tremendous effort going in to manipulating us in that regard, Mr Hooton and Mr Farrar make a very good living for just that. Does the left do it? I rarely see Hooton and Farrar criticised by the right but Paganis, Williams are frequently criticised by supporters of parties to the left. What IS apparent from the book is that Farrar and Slater and to an extent Hooton (and he admitted that in the last two days) keep each other appraised of what they are “working ” on and the former have more coordination enabling Farrar to appear more moderate and unbiased to Slater’s rabid character assassination.
New Zealand is a great country. I am lucky enough to travel, and love traveling. As amazing as the rest of the world can be, I always love returning home and traveling again within Aotearoa.
For those who have surrendered to the notion that it’s not worth opposing because “everyone is doing it”, I say is that the world you want to live in, where you give in to what you know is wrong because you have been fooled into thinking it’s a sporting match and forget that when the match ends, YOU have had a good time but are also the only one who lost money on the event…everyone else was paid lots for your pleasure.
It is one thing to say that it’s just a difference in ideology but I don’t mind people disagreeing with my “politics” but base it on fact, evidence and clear thinking.
…it is probably inevitable that someone on the left will take money (if anyone would offer it) to replicate Slater and Farrar…
Wrong. Unless running corporate agendas and looking to disengage people from voting in elections etc, ever became a programme of the left – in which case it wouldn’t be the left. But sure, parties of the left could well be hi-jacked by careerists, and then what you say would probably eventuate.
Its not just to disengage voters Bill. The two track strategy is about presenting your leader with an untouchable nice person image while running despicable attacks against your opponents from other quarters. I xant see why some on the Left would be immune to the tactic if they see it as a game to be won at any cost, and why not, the right dont have a monopoly on that particular frailty.
Actually it only takes a collins and a slater at the basic level. The Left once on the treasury benches would have both. No corporate or money realky needed
yeah, nah – the despicable attacks are a part and parcel of putting people off. It makes politics petty and (in the mind of prospective voters) a waste of time.
Yes. The politics of hidden agendas, an two track attack politics, is aimed at disempowering the people most likely to support left policies. For the left to adopt such strategies would be counter productive for the left.
For the left, the opposite is required: to engage with, motivate and mobilise the people.
You are talking about what is required whereas i am talking about what some might do. I see little evidence the labour party would say no to an opportunity to beat the others at their own game at some point if offered.
They might try it, but it’d be a fizzer because of the reasons I stated – and it wouldn’t last for longer before it backfired on them. not worth the effort.
Well, what’s your point then? Basically, it’s a non-goer for the left: not practical; would contradict the core values of the left; and would further disconnect the parliamentary left from the flax roots.
That you think being left leaning makes people immune from slater-collins-lusk-esque behaviour I have to disagree. Self interest does not exist only on the right. Ego does not only exist on the right.
Since when has saying or doing things contrary to the “flax roots” meant every left sympathiser or left parliamentary rep and staffer are saints immune to the “game.”?
It’s not just about ego and self-interest though, and this is a very important point. It’s also about the world view and core values. Having left wing politics generally goes with a world view that is more fair and less greedy or focussed on acumulation of power for is own end (I also think that traditional conservative values in NZ are different from Slater and co). The VRWC is run by people with ego and self-interest, but it’s their values and the way they see the world that is the real problem.
If the left wing parties were willing to compromise values for power and achieving govt they would be using the coat tail provisions, and doing electoral deals to ensure they win. That as much as anything tells me that we are still reasonably safe in NZ. On the other hand, there is the history of Labour and neoliberalism, and we still have the ABCs (who prove Bill’s point rather than yours I think), so I think being mindful is important. I don’t see a VLWC as inevitable though.
Yeah nah. Only in part. It is also about discreditting the other people, making them less viable as a ruling power so you will put your support elsewhere. It is not one dimensional.
Tracy, when who holds the reigns of power is determined by who best satisfies competing corporate interest (eg, various industry lobby groups), then you and I, or our support, just do not matter at all.
“Wrong. Unless running corporate agendas and looking to disengage people from voting in elections etc, ever became a programme of the left – in which case it wouldn’t be the left”
Even within the narrow confines of representative parliamentary politics, the left needs engagement. But where parties become the domain of a professionalised political class, all parties then compete in a ‘value free’ environment and play the same game as each other; a game that does not require (and even fears) widespread engagement.
You say “people on the left of politics don’t do x, y and z”. If you’re shown a person who would clearly be agreed by everyone to be on the left of politics that is doing any of x, y or z, then you declare that person is not truly on the left of politics.
No, I am expressing my misgivings especially when Mallard and his ilk still sit inside Labour.
You are surmising as much as I am. You have no proof of what they are or are not able to do successfully or otherwise in the future than I do.
“The thing that bothers me is that it is probably inevitable that someone on the left will take money (if anyone would offer it) … ” That is, to blog stuff to attack the right
No, I am expressing my misgivings especially when Mallard and his ilk still sit inside Labour.
Your surmising is just feeding the right wing smoke & mirrors response to Dirty Politics.
There are very good reasons re-a range of policies and practices, for being concerned about the continuing, soft neoliberals within Labour. The right within the parliamentary left, and somewhat disconnected from significant parts of the wider left.
I didnt write my thoughts in a way you think I should? Ok…
My surmising is my concern about future behaviour because I dont believe the right have a monopoly on self interest and ego.
Your belief that no one on the left, in the blogosphere or political party would behave that way, is perfectly valud but doesnt make mine wrong or feeding a right wing meme.
I have not said the Left are doing it to. I have made it clear I believe if they were, slater, faffar or hooton would have published it. My fear is for the future.
That may not have been clear to you in this or other posts. So be it.
I didn’t say no-one on the “left” might try it. I said, if they did, it wouldn’t be very successful, and basically, all it would achieve is to damage the wider left.
Assuming that you mean by ‘Mallard and his ilk’ a professionalised politician – a careerist – then yes, were they to successfully hi-jack the Labour party and use it as a political vehicle for their own narrowly focused personal gain, they’d likely employ the same tactics as we currently see being used by cliques within National. (Attacking people and their reputations in lieu of debating/attacking policy)
But they certainly couldn’t do it successfully as a clique within the Labour Party without undermining, and possibly destroying, the very vehicle they hoped to use.
So what you are contending is that left politics could be conducive to corporate agendas and disengaging people from the social democratic process.
And I’m saying those agendas can only make any sense with an absence of any left leaning aspirations.
If someone on the left got into attack style politics, of the type mentioned in Hager’s book, I’d say they were fucking idiots who had no idea of what they were actually doing.
If an entire network was built up by the Labour Party, that emulated what National have been doing, then our current understanding of what we mean by ‘National’ and ‘Labour’ would be obsolete in terms of making sense of any difference between the two. They (Labour) would necessarily have become professionalised and utterly disconnected from their historical political roots on the left.
Are you saying the Labour party has never compromised left leaning policies to accomodate corporates (business) in order to sit on the Treasury benches?
“..then our current understanding of what we mean by ‘National’ and ‘Labour’ would be obsolete in terms of making sense of any difference between the two. They (Labour) would necessarily have become professionalised and utterly disconnected from their historical political roots on the left.. ”
Within a social democratic context, the left always accommodates business interests. It’s what parliament is there for; to ensure a favourable environment for business.
However, the left also concerns itself with social policies designed to ameliorate the impacts of business activities in a society that’s overlayed with a market system. And sure, the relative ‘weighting’ of social policy ebbs and flows over time given larger political context and ebbed massively during the years that neo-classical economics has been in the ascendency.
Now, if you want to see a society embedded within a corporatist framework, then dump social policy/concerns altogether, professionalise the political parties, and have citizens as mere spectators to a never ending roll out of policies that only serve to advance corporate interests.
That’s where the trajectory of the practices laid out in Hagers book lead. If you believe ‘a left’ can play any part of a corporatist political/social structure, then your contention that the left can engage in the same political games as current National party cliques stands.
Otherwise (ie, if you hold corporatism to be something wholly embedded within the right) your contention makes no sense.
And if you regard the left as a philosophy that will “support social equality, often in opposition to social hierarchy and social inequality.” then the Labour Party wasn’t practising leftist policies for those two terms. Therefore what you’re contending doesn’t apply.
Actually the only thing I’m contending is that you’re making an argument that amounts to “no true scotsman fallacy”. You might be quite happy to make such an argument and still believe in it – that’s fine. Just be aware that you’re making it.
I think it’s more about how you define “left”. I don’t know that definition of “true Scotsmen” is exactly the same thing.
But some talk about the “left” as being exclusively the parliamentary left” and parties such as Labour, whether or not they continue to follow left wing principles.
And when you look at the wider left, it’s a matter of how you define it’s core values and principles.
Bill talks about corporate interests and disengaging people from the political process.
But you could also talk about unions. It’s feasible to imagine a very strong union movement that colluded with politicians to further their causes. We have seen such things overseas. In the US, the Chicago Democrats are infamous for their corruption and manipulation, and are clearly on the left of their political spectrum.
I don’t see where anyone is arguing that the left is somehow immune to dictatorial politics. That would be an absurd position to take. However, what tends to happen (if history is anything to go by) is that the dictatorial left is characterised by state centric oppression – (eg state ‘communism’) while the right is corporatist/fascist – ie, a more market orientated form of dictatorship. And ‘Dirty Politics’ highlights a trajectory towards the latter scenario.
“The idea that Slater and Farrar or Hooton know that Labour is doing it but have held back releasing proof is laughable. I am just surprised none of them (Slater) have made stuff up.”
Yip, given how much crap they say without proof, and their pavlovian reactions when they have ‘some proof’ of *anything* that has the slightest whiff of being ‘bad’, clearly they don’t have any evidence of wrong-doing in this case.
“The thing that bothers me is that it is probably inevitable that someone on the left will take money (if anyone would offer it) to replicate Slater and Farrar et al’s tactics because it is seen to “work”.”
– I don’t think its quite that simple (or easy), I’m not saying the Left arn’t capable of it but more like how it happened is not easy to replicate
Whaleoils first blog was 2005 but how many years was it before anyone started really taking a look at what he does?
So you’d need to have a lot of patience
Secondly Cameron Slater had no real profile at all when he started so he had no baggage whereas someone like Bomber (probably the lefts most well known blogger) has plenty of baggage
Next you’d need someone with the inside word but especially on both sides of the house
However the nice thing for the left is that the cost isn’t all that much
A left wing “attack dog” would not be able to operate in the same way that Slug Boy and Farrar do. Left wing readers would not accept the filth. They want fact based posts and comments, or at most a bit of opinion, but it can never veer into the personal assassination stuff that is the staple of the right.
Imagine what would happen if, for example, a left blogger wrote the following about a Tory minister:
“She’s been a filthy slut ever since she was at intermediate school, and the tipline tells me she was never a good root anyway…………”
We are organically incapable of doing what they do.
An increasingly undemocratic country, where people are told not to get involved in politics.
“The academics and the scientists and the engineers and the school teachers, all those people who know about things in society, the ones who can talk about it and inform the other people who vote and think and act and sign petitions, lots of those people are scared at the moment, many academics think they are going to get in trouble if the speak out at the moment.”
Public servants have to remain politically neutral and serve the government of the day but they are allowed to engage in politics outside work.
Keep head down
However, one public servant at the event, who wanted to remain anonymous, said he was spotted on television in the background of a previous Nicky Hager talk on Dirty Politics and subsequently told by his bosses to keep his keep his head down and stay out of politics.
I have a few friends currently or previously (last three years) at Universities and they are very concerned that if they speak out they will lose funding. Without funding a University position is relatively redundant (as opposed to technical institutes where there is more emphasis on teaching).
Section 162 (4) (a) (v) of the Education Amendment Act, New Zealand universities
are to be characterised by an acceptance of “the role of critic and conscience of society.”
This is truly a huge problem. Steven Joyce’s restructuring of University Councils is another step in stifling the ability of academics to speak out and also to even have a real choice over topics of research because of threats of withdrawing funds. Pressure can be applied directly (threaten University Funding , Slater character assassination picked up by MSM.)
National’s Science Policy http://www.sciencemediacentre.co.nz/2014/09/08/election-2014-smc-science-qa-with-political-parties/
I have a few friends currently or previously (last three years) at Universities and they are very concerned that if they speak out they will lose funding.
It’s the stealthy corporatisation of the university system – where money is used as a threat, not around the merit of your work, but around your politics and conformance.
The problem is there is no discernible (at least not discernible in the span of a radio sound-bite or news article) line between professional opinion and personal bias when it comes to politics. Anything said, right or wrong, would mislead voters. Academics scientists, teachers etc are all “bought by society” and cannot step out of their role with objectivity. They couldn’t even do it at a personal level if they were magically allowed the social freedom to do so. What they know is relevant only within a certain context. Saying their contributions can only ever be constructive, by misunderstanding where and how they gain their status – by adhering to social expectations that propagate certain “negative” social outcomes – is a common circular fallacy. Theoretically, the only way any of those people could attempt to neutralise their personal bias (known and unknown) and “make the world a better place” would be to leave whatever institution pays them, spend however long it takes to reinvestigate every method they’d been taught to check for political bias, and re-enter the world with their knowledge at street level. Otherwise their contribution should stay within the slow, slow, politically unviable, sound-bite free, systems that try to make sure what they do say is at least factual. Jumping academic barriers purposely designed to maintain an attempt at facts and objectivity will only return bias and subjectivity.
That is the difficult problem. Disclaimers aren’t fail-safe in the minds of media consumers if said consumer only wants to believe anything that supports his prejudice. It’s not like we’ll suddenly see a huge shift in news reporting towards week-long peer-reviewed articles on each problematic issue, step by step, for and against, and alternatives, and a matching shift in societal trends.
To Tracey and Crocodill sound debate on the biases we attach to our world views,sinking into the essence of the matter at hand without any biases allows the mid of view or reality to spring out.Human nature is open to manipulation .
Personal bias is not the issue – inside or outside of academia.
‘Facts’ and ‘objectivity’ only arise out of a social process. There are plenty of clues to this in both the intellectual world and the world of ordinary action.
As Popper pointed out, for example, it doesn’t matter where hypotheses come from – the imagination, insanity, careful reasoning or ideology. It is the institutionalised method of science (blind peer review, debate, etc.) that produces and grows scientific knowledge. In Popper’s terms the hypotheses are open to test – and that’s what matters.
The idea that each individual scientist must be ‘bias free’ is not only unrealistic but, within scientific discourse, unnecessary. Refelective awareness of one’s biases is always useful, of course, but it’s not what science depends upon.
Similarly, the philosophical maxim that the ad hominem fallacy should be avoided is another clue that individual bias (political or otherwise) doesn’t matter. Wherever the knowledge claim comes from in terms of the personal attributes of the person advancing it (e.g., that they are politically inclined to the left or right) is irrelevant. The claim must be analysed purely on its merits.
In the non-intellectual, non-scientific world the same applies. Democracy does not assume that all participants are unbiased, free from anything other than rational influence, etc.. Instead, it assumes that they are but through everyone having an equal voice in the debate over collective decisions the most viable decisions are likely to be made.
In an interesting way, the scientific ideal is essentially identical to the democratic ideal – irrespective of what individuals believe or are committed to the collective activity of ‘decision making’ (in science that is decisions over reliable and valid knowledge claims, in ordinary society that is decisions over collective destiny) is what we put our trust in.
We don’t put our trust in the lack of bias within certain individuals.
“Wherever the knowledge claim comes from in terms of the personal attributes of the person advancing it (e.g., that they are politically inclined to the left or right) is irrelevant. The claim must be analysed purely on its merits.”
Why then why do we think we need academics or put our trust in their superior knowledge? Why say that if only they could speak freely, it would all be better? In the context of this discussion, if any idea must be fairly measured, the appeal is pointless. Otherwise another circular fallacy appears: every idea is to be measured on merit, but ideas from academics will be understood to be more informed and therefore more respected, than those of a homeless man.
The rule does not recognise the existing state of society – it’s expectation, beliefs, etiquette and culture. News and political misinformation travels too fast for ideals to catch up.
The result of appealing to those with high social status would, taken far enough, remove politics from the general pubic, reject the rule above, voting wouldn’t be necessary and governments would be formed by a private selection of representatives of the military, businessmen, academics and maybe even religious groups. Sounds familiar, no? I wonder if those who put their trust in knowledge know they are advocating a form of feudal communism.
“In the non-intellectual, non-scientific world the same applies. Democracy does not assume that all participants are unbiased, free from anything other than rational influence, etc.. Instead, it assumes that they are but through everyone having an equal voice in the debate over collective decisions the most viable decisions are likely to be made.”
That is a flaw of democracy as it grows inside a capitalist framework. Above you say self reflection is good (and slow!), however asking society to inspect itself is an uphill battle because society is necessarily fast and not an individual. No doubt you’ve heard the various arguments against “privilege”. The above definition of democracy ignores (and by now if it ignores it, it is wilfully ignorant) that people can possess exclusive privileges, that there is inequality in opinion and voice, which ironically has democracy purposely destroying itself.
“Why then why do we think we need academics or put our trust in their superior knowledge? Why say that if only they could speak freely, it would all be better? ”
We might be talking a bit at cross purposes. I definitely don’t think we should “put our trust in their superior knowledge”. I do think their knowledge should, however, be made available to put in the mix of the public debates over important issues.
I wasn’t objecting to your caution about how individual scientists can be given too much status when they proclaim something in the media as if they were the font of all that is objective.
Personally, I think we should have swags of scientists, academics involved in the debates we have on political issues. That is the best way to ameliorate the bad effects that might happen if only one or two are involved (and become resident ‘experts’, rolled out to proclaim the ‘truth’ about an issue).
I think the antidote to the ‘status effects’ you are concerned about – and that I agree with – is to hear more about the debates and discussions within the scientific or academic worlds .
One way of undermining the ascribed status that some individuals have is to become more familiar with them and with what they are saying. You soon learn that they aren’t the be-all and end-all of knowledge.
As you say, this ‘status’ problem is endemic to debate and discussion within hierarchical societies of any form. I don’t think the way to counter that problem is to restrict debate to ‘ordinary’ people for a simple reason – that amongst that group, too, a hierarchy (e.g., of ‘personal experience’) will mean that some people have more ‘status’ and their opinions more weight than those of others.
I think a more likely viable way forward is actually to encourage everyone to debate and discuss in multiple forums, places and groups. The real problem is that the media has ‘captured’ or ‘enclosed’ public debate and, in effect, privatised it so that it is owned by relatively few people. Others are excluded.
I’d like to see scientists and academics going to the people directly (local community meetings, writing independent ‘pamphlets’ for circulation, etc.) rather than via the media but I don’t think they should be excluded from appearing in the media.
There used to be debating ‘societies’ in late 18th century and 19th century London, for example. These were all over the city – the East End as much as anywhere. They were places that were a cross between ribald entertainment and political activist meetings where the issues of the day (e.g., abolition of the slave trade) were hotly debated. They also were packed with all sorts of people who heckled, engaged, listened, questioned and mocked (even the ‘experts’ who debated the topic).
We could do worse than resurrect a similar system today because daily discussion of the issues of the day is one thing that seems to be languishing.
The whole point should be to raise the frequency and sophistication of political discussions for everyone’s benefit.
Finally, I definitely don’t ignore ‘privilege’ when I talk about democracy. For me, the movement towards a more democratic world inherently means a movement away from privilege.
The real problem is that the media has ‘captured’ or ‘enclosed’ public debate and, in effect, privatised it so that it is owned by relatively few people. Others are excluded.
QFT
There used to be debating ‘societies’ in late 18th century and 19th century London, for example.
In NZ the railway yards and other such places used to be used as community discussion halls. Discussion covered everything from trades to politics and I believe a hell of a lot of innovation came out of them as well (Railway yards used to have significant manufacturing capacity).
Finally, I definitely don’t ignore ‘privilege’ when I talk about democracy. For me, the movement towards a more democratic world inherently means a movement away from privilege.
I think what we are facing here in NZ is a new form of mercantilism, except the powers are financial organisations and corporations.
We are challenged by global forces, capital moving to the place of highest return, and yes, New Zealand has VERY high returns (relatively unspoiled productive land, relative low population density etc). Rich pickings, yet we have appalling poverty levels.
We are challenged from within, from our sense of empathy toward our neighbours, empathy toward people who are hungrier than us, empathy toward kids who don’t get a chance to live their childhood with freedom. I think we also have empathy with the privileged, who cannot (because of their ‘lucky’ upbringing – from a Rawlsian perspective) even see beyond their own doors/gated community.
We split our time trying to justify our perspective, understand and rebut others that are radically different. ‘Politics’ zaps up energy – as it should. At the moment we are introspective, trying to figure out how to remove unsavoury, undemocratic (and I think criminal) attacks on our freedom of speech (referring to outfall from Hager’s book). But we shouldn’t lose sight of the bigger picture also, and what is happening globally and how our government connects into it all.
I really do think it is a clash of ideology – along empathetic lines. People out for themselves, selfish, degrade their environment for their own selfish comfort for however number of years they are on this planet. If only people would think a little more. Think of consequences of actions. Think of consequence of words. Think of consequences of media/messages.
Meanwhile, as the ‘Left’ (a term which I don’t like either, as it is so polarised and a lazy way to describe very complex ideas and forces that cannot be simply condensed into one word…….equally applies to the term ‘Right’) rationalises, considers and responds to what is happening, the government is leaps and bounds ahead, onto the next project of chipping away at their own agenda, serving their own needs. There is a problem of timing, being on the backfoot.
“That is a flaw of democracy as it grows inside a capitalist framework”
Contrary to that, I think democracy is flagging inside the neo-liberal framework.
Contrary to that, I think democracy is flagging inside the neo-liberal framework.
I think the neo-liberal framework was designed to do precisely that. We’d tried Laissez Faire before and we’d ended up with huge amounts of poverty, the rich being very rich and powerful and WW1, The Great Depression and WW2.
I’m pretty sure that some didn’t forget the lessons. That people in poverty work harder, for less and don’t question the owners as much as when they’re reasonably well off.
They seem to have forgotten, however, the “WW1, The Great Depression and WW2” bit. These things tend to happen when you run countries ragged. Another anti-democratic aspect that really scares me is the installation of puppet leaders whose main purpose is to do their corporate masters’ bidding. Put the two together and you end up with a war being managed by a haircut pretending to be a leader, to borrow a phrase from Woody Allen.
They seem to have forgotten, however, the “WW1, The Great Depression and WW2″ bit.
The military-industrial complex arose out of WW2 so I doubt if they’ve forgotten those billions of income.
Another anti-democratic aspect that really scares me is the installation of puppet leaders whose main purpose is to do their corporate masters’ bidding.
Also, Wall St encouraged the USA to enter the war, against the wishes of a highly pacifist American public, in order to safeguard millions in loans they had made to the British and the French.
Popper ignores a recentish study which showed that even when researchers were confronted by their bias, relating to omitting negative findings, the majority still believed they were right.
Peer review is also subject to bias and patch protection but having systems and processes can impact but by no means fullproof.
I cant find the paper but it was out of oxford or cambridge and the author has a chinese surname
“Popper ignores a recentish study which showed that even when researchers were confronted by their bias, relating to omitting negative findings, the majority still believed they were right.”
I don’t see that this finding affects my (and Popper’s) argument.
There’s actually been plenty of work (e.g., from discourse analysts who have focused on the discourses of natural and physical scientists as they discuss issues at conferences) that shows that individual scientists can be very ‘biased’ and will hold to beliefs for doubtful reasons (personal pride, reputation, sense of superiority, etc.).
My point is that it is the institutions of science that produce whatever degree of reliability or validity there may be in scientific knowledge.
And, I agree, those institutions are ‘flawed’ in terms of personal bias (and other very human influences) over what gets accepted or opposed. But this is my point: Whatever reliability and validity there is in scientific knowledge or in political, democratic decision making does not depend on individuals who have managed to rid themselves of bias.
How we, collectively, come to generate adaptive knowledge and decisions (in science or politics) is a slowly evolving process in which there’s a bit of an ‘arms race’ between efforts to eliminate partial and biased decisions (that may ultimately be maladaptive) and the efforts of partial and biased interests to get their way in particular instances.
There’s no nirvana when it comes to ‘rational’, unbiased decision making – but hopefully we keep trying to make it work more and more for our collective interests rather than partial interests.
I don’t think discouraging people – whether scientists or ‘ordinary people’ – from entering political discussions is the way to improve our collective decision making. That’s what I thought, perhaps mistakenly, that crocodill was arguing – that scientists should be corralled away from those discussions.
“Popper ignores a recentish study which showed ”
If you are talking about Karl Popper, who is the only well known, at least to me,
academic of that name it isn’t really surprising that he ignores recent studies.
After all he died 20 years ago.
If it isn’t Karl who is it. I’d be interested in another one.
Ah, that does make a difference.
By the way, please don’t think that I am picking on you specifically with quibbles. It is just that I tend to read most of your posts as they are usually interesting. If I read them all I am likely to spot the occasional thing that looks a bit odd.
I know Populuxe is an academic and that birthed my confusion. I am interested in the statutory requirement for our universities to be society’s conscience and feel that has been eroded in a significant way.
“..Popper ignores a recentish study which showed that even when researchers were confronted by their bias, relating to omitting negative findings, the majority still believed they were right…”
In the 90s, Dr Peter Ramankutty was fired from the Auckland University Maths Department, on the basis that he was a useless lecturer. He took the university to court, saying he was being fired for criticising teaching policy, which was basically to make courses easy and pass everyone. Several of his colleagues gave evidence that he was mistaken. My opinion is that he was not, and I was appalled at how readily academics took the side of the university.
I think most of those who were prepared to be part of society’s conscience are long gone or have gone to sleep.
Its not so much ‘bought’ but that they are already owned by virtue of where they are and who they work for.
Rawdon and the tvnz autocrew being one such example, look at how Shane got cleaned out for his lack of judgement over a meeting compared to hoskings treatment for admitted bias.
Greens have to debate against a guy who isn’t yet in parliament and another guy whose only MP got convicted of Election Fraud and had to leave Parliament.
There have been quite a few ‘all in debates’ which have been pretty limited in value. Too many heads fighting for a platform. I personally find the head to head between the two main party’s more effective way of debating their difference on policy. The only problem is National have been very poor on providing policy and pluck shit out of thin air. You only have to look at their proposed tax cut in 3 years.
Surely if a boss tell an employee what they can do in their free time that is harassment and that boss needs to be told that.
We all need to get a bit braver. So that it gets to be a habit. So that we can build our democracy on it. Our rights were not given to us like Xmas pressies or won like a raffle….our rights were fought for, long hard battles, side by side…our rights were wrested from the hands of the powerful and rich. Dirty corrupt hands that have their corporate fingerprints all over our country right now.
If Scotland can vote for freedom, to paddle their own canoe, then we can too!
If it’s that bad, I would recommend not telling your boss you aren’t following his/her every whim outside of work hours. Unless you want to lose your job, that is. There is fighting back openly = high losses against more powerful enemy, and there is fighting back covertly = guaranteed win against more powerful enemy.
the level of wrong doing against themselves that a citizenry accepts will coincidentally match the level of oppression that they find themselves living under.
New York cleaners get fair pay 70% union membership in the same hotel corporates as London, where onl 2 – 4% of workers are union members.
A cleaner on London’s Park Lane will almost certainly be on or around the minimum wage, say £6.31 for each hour. Her counterpart (because, let’s face it, it’s almost always women doing this physically punishing work) on New York’s Park Avenue is likely to be on nearly three times as much: an agreed hourly rate of $28.50, or £17.66.
Those figures upend most of what we’re usually told about how the economy works. How many times have you heard some frontbench MP or policy wonk blithely talk about how the labour market is dividing between “lovely jobs” and “lousy jobs”? As if the choice is between being a software engineer, say, or a care assistant. The implication is that anyone in the second category has opted for poverty pay and miserable conditions. In that worldview, you don’t get much lowlier than scrubbing someone else’s toilets. But the folk who do it in Manhattan hotels can expect to earn an annual salary of £32,150 – way above the average salary for all New Yorkers, and indeed for all Britons.
It is pretty difficult to compare wages between countries without introducing logical absurdities.
For example I suppose we could argue that people in New Zealand are grossly overtaxed when compared to the citizens of Brunei. They, after all, pay no income tax at all. Why should we have to pay any? What are Labour and the Greens up to in wanting to lift the burden we have to bear?
If you are looking at the average wage paid to housekeeping staff in Manhattan, and from your comments it appears to be only Manhattan, you probably ought to compare there pay to the average pay in Manhattan. According to one thing I have seen the average pay of people working there is about £80,000/year.
I refer you to http://www.bls.gov/ro2/qcew9310.htm
Which is why it is important to put our own lines in the sand based on, i hope, a desire to see all kiwis thrive rather than survive. Advances arent made by saying compared to sudan we are safe, compared to india our poor are rich.
It’s really quite amazing that Jackson has got away with treating the Union as a personal bank whereas Craig Thompson guilty of far less (in $ terms anyway) has been convicted.
sadly, ‘failing’ means holding ownership of all land and improvements even when a school goes under — even though they are all paid for by taxpayers. such a rort, and I wonder if this is the reason for them even.
This seems to have caused some pain for a few contributors to this blog, so in the interests of prolonging that, here is the 100% proof that Key was a director at Merrill Lynch (here he is appointed as alternate director, but on the next document you will see that he is a full director within 6 months)
Just checking that you’re aware that in US firms “director” is a senior management position (but still not at the top exec level); it is not a company director sitting on the board as in NZ parlance?
The other interesting thing is that you can see by the accounts linked above that it is certainly the main UK Merrill Lynch company at the time (turnover in the billions) but it’s no longer that. Sounds Phoenix.
I have no idea, see my comment above. But it looked like there was some sensitivity around this, so I’ve just put it out there.
But away from the Director issue it would be interesting to follow the accounts and incarnations of this firm because they’re far from being a good corporate citizen.
For a little light relief; An investigation for leftism? (A Leunig cartoon)https://www.facebook.com/175074566012104/photos/a.175075612678666.1073741826.175074566012104/291956154323944/?type=1&theater
My nephew has been working over 70 hours a week driving for a cattle trucking company, exhausted, sometimes only getting 1 day off every 2 weeks. He had no idea when he would be allowed to have time off. He drove a $600k truck. Over a 5 year period he gave up on all of his recreational stuff, selling his trail-bike, he had no time to socialise. He looked exhausted and gained weight.
But recently he gained a job with another trucking company, he has spent weeks in profession driver training and safety training, he will still work hard (50 hours/week) but he knows his roster so he can make plans, he is back jogging and regaining his life. Of course the big difference, the company he is working for is Unionised.
Yes, apparently yesterday he was following one of his old workmates who was driving his cattle truck quite erratically…he called him on the phone and the guy told him he was falling asleep. Honestly, if you see cattle trucks on the road, be cautious because these drivers are being worked ludicrous hours.
I heard on National Radio last night that the trust of a charter school that is in danger of failing will keep the million dollar plus property bought by the government if it fails.
This is the best link I have found so far but doesn’t refer to this fact. Maybe some one has a better link?
Sorry don’t know the answer to that question but I was interested to hear a figure of 27k in average costs for a year for students at a Charter school vs 6k a year for those at a state school.
Fambo … it’s true and I posted at 8.1. It has always troubled me deeply, as I saw it as a giant rort, in some cases surely set up deliberately to fail. It’s worth millions.
There were questions asked in the House last year, and I know Parata et al were even more sideways than usual in answering questions.
Be worth using advanced search of Parliament Hansard ? I seem to recall questions from both NZFG and Greens, but could be wrong about that. But I am not wrong about the facts that ownership of assets remains with the failed executive(s).
(And searching, remember to search ‘partnership schools’ as Parata et al were obviously advised to avoid ‘charter schools”, though opposition parties continued using the charter name.)
@Fambo .. here’s a start for you … Tracey Martin NZF asking Parata specifics :
Tracey Martin: Is the Minister aware that Te KuraHouruakiWhangaruru, a charter school being set up by the NgāParirauMātauranga Charitable Trust, has received over $1.6 million from the Government, which it has spent on 81 hectares of farmland in Northland, and it now finds itself without enough funds to build the school itself, so it is looking at placing portable accommodation and Portaloos in a paddock, and would she consider this to be a modern learning environment?
Hon HEKIA PARATA: Could the member tell me again what the name of that school is so that I know which one she is talking about?
Mr SPEAKER: Would the member please assist the Minister by just naming that school again?
Tracey Martin: Te KuraHouruakiWhangaruru.
Hon HEKIA PARATA: Thank you, Mr Speaker. No, I am not aware that that is what has occurred, in terms of those details. I would have to check that with the Ministry of Education.
Tracey Martin: Can the Minister confirm that the agreement between herself as the Minister and the sponsor shows that the nearly 100 hectares of farmland, purchased with taxpayers’ money, now belongs to the trust, regardless of whether they build a school or not?
Hon HEKIA PARATA: I do not have that detail to hand. I would be very happy, however, to answer those questions and deal with the member on every one of those details.
Tracey Martin: Should the trust not build the charter school it claims it would, will she, as the Minister, take steps to recover the $1.6 million of taxpayer education money it has received; if not, why not?
Hon HEKIA PARATA: Although I do not have the particular details to hand of that particular contract, what I can tell the member, and assure the House of, is that there are significant performance and accountability requirements of each and every one of the five partnership schools. All of that detail is up on the website and available to anyone who wishes to look at them. In terms of the specific assertions that the member is making about one particular school, I am happy to get the detail of that and work with the member.
Tracey Martin: Is the Minister able to confirm, with her knowledge of the contracts to date, whether there are any clauses inside of any of the partnership school contracts whereby should the schools close, the assets purchased with taxpayer dollars can be claimed back by the State?
Hon HEKIA PARATA: It is my expectation that school properties that are to be disposed of will follow the Public Works Act. That is the usual practice.
Tracey Martin: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am sorry, but I did not ask about the Public Works Act or schools in the disposal. Charter schools and partnership schools do not enter that area. I asked whether—[Interruption]
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Tracey Martin: —there was a clause inside the contracts—
Mr SPEAKER: Order! I am sorry, but I am going to have to ask the member to start again. I am getting so many interruptions from my left-hand side.
Tracey Martin: The question was whether the Minister is able to tell the House whether inside the partnership schools contracts—
Mr SPEAKER: Order! I think that the quickest way forward is to actually allow the member to repeat the question. Thank you.
Tracey Martin: I will try to bring it back. So is the Minister able to tell the House whether, inside the partnership schools contracts she has knowledge of, there is any clause that allows the State—the ministry—to take back the assets purchased by those partnership schools should they close or fold for any reason?
Hon HEKIA PARATA: I do not have that detail to hand, and I am happy to work with the member.
Chris Hipkins to Parata, who is so ably enabled to lie by Speaker David Carter:
Chris Hipkins: Is she satisfied that the taxpayer is getting good value for money from the $1.8 million given to He Puna Marama Trust for its establishment costs, given that it has leased facilities at a cost of just $58,000 a year and is asking the existing State schools in the area to deliver teaching on its behalf?
Hon HEKIA PARATA: Different choices are made between leasing, owning, and servicing over the life of a property. As I have said, these schools are contracted for the term of their contract to deliver educational outcomes. They are free to make those choices but they must deliver the educational outcomes expected of them.
Chris Hipkins: If a partnership school were to close before the end of its contract, is there any provision in those contracts for the Crown to recover any of the establishment costs that the school has been funded for; if not, why not?
Hon HEKIA PARATA: As I have answered in response to that question in the House before, we will use the usual commercial instruments available to us to recover costs invested by the Government.
Chris Hipkins: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That was actually a very specific question as to whether there was any provision in the contract allowing the Government to recoup money if a school closed before the end of its contract. She has not actually answered that question.
Mr SPEAKER: No, I think that on this occasion the Minister has. She said they would use the normal provisions under the contract.
Chris Hipkins: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. She talked about the normal provisions under the contract, but she has not actually indicated what they are.
Mr SPEAKER: Would the member resume his seat. I have accepted that the question has been addressed. The member has further supplementary questions. That is the way it works.
Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. With the greatest respect, one has to understand what “usual commercial instruments” might be. That member is asking the question as to whether that commercial instrument is in existence and is a term of the original arrangement. He is not asking what they might do in its absence. That is a subtle difference, but it is very important.
Mr SPEAKER: I think that the member is raising a point that gives a very good lead to the member to ask his next supplementary question.
Chris Hipkins: Are you going to give me an extra supplementary question, Mr Speaker?
Hi Yeshe – thanks for your info! Pretty outrageous that they get to keep the property. My immediate first impression would be that the Education Department is being pressured to push through Charter Schools and so is at the very least is being slack in the way it forms contracts with Charter Schools leading to this, and, Charter Schools are being given every help possible to survive by the government which wants the model to become the norm. I’d say the schools are simply taking the opportunity to benefit from everything they are being offered. A bit like sheep and beef farmers in Canterbury selling their farms to dairy after irrigation is introduced to an area, making a huge profit and then looking to buy a new farm in areas like the Wairarapa (which I know is happening). A lot of people are making big bucks out of this government’s policies one way or another.
Personally, I think it’s criminal if they are permitted to keep ownership of the land. And when you read through what I posted, it seems the Whangaruru School spent so much on the land, it had no funds remaining to offer the contracted services and were seeking more help via local schools and Ed Dept. But hands-over-ears Hekia and Key said nothing to see or hear .. let’s move on.
If you want more info, maybe write to Tracey Martin via NZF or Chris Hipkins Labour. Good points prior to election.
There are just so many questions to ask of this bloody awful government .. hard to know where it all ends. Key disables any debate; Carter enables perversion and aversion of facts in the House. Sigh …
If you consider that the Charter Schools initiative was not fundamentally about improving learning outcomes for our children – then it is a success.
A dismantling of our public education system is well underway, and private enterprise makes money. Exactly the result from US schemes, and seemingly the end game for those involved here as well.
Charter Schools are not about quality education or egalitarianism….they are fundamentally about American business making money out of privatising education and controlling a right wing values agenda …this is the end game
…and it is being promoted and lobbied for in New Zealand by a private PR company very much aligned to ACT.
Charter Schools have not worked in the USA….and are very controversial in the USA….but this does not stop Catherine Isaacs , who has no academic expertise or research qualifications in Education
If we want world leading quality education we would be better off following Finland and their highly trained teacher educator State run model….this means money into our State education system …and especially money into special needs education within the State sector
They were never mentioned even once as policy prior to the last election. It was a Banks Key secret.
The full ugliness only became known in the so-called Nats and Act agreement after the election.
Epsom, you were conned, and subsequently they conned us all. Please can you do better this time? Otherwise we have at risk the OIA and RMA and who knows what other secrets ?
I think it has proved 100% Nats extreme right wing agenda disguised as Act policy.
Charter schools have always been part of the ACT policy. I attended a presentation with Heather Roy and Roger Douglas at MacLeans college a few years ago, and both a voucher system and charter schools were mentioned.
Way back when my family first started home education, I read everything about it that I could lay my hands on – including use of the charter schools programmes in the US by home educators there.
Despite the personal benefit that the home education community could get by supporting charter schools, – from that immersion it literature at the time, it was apparent to me that the end result was a dismantling of public education, a reduced education delivery to those already in reduced circumstances, and a completely fraudulent means of using public monies to line private purses.
Been vocal in my opposition whenever the opportunity arises ever since.
(And had no evidence to the contrary over the intervening years to change my view)
Molly exclusively Brethren your easily lead by cults Acts take all attitude!
Don’t let facts get in the way!
Of Jamie Whytes condoning incestuous relationships is obviously a dog whistle to the Brethren!
Have to post this here because it is important and needs wide circulation:
‘Perceptions Of Corruption Damaging To New Zealand’s International Reputation’
By Selwyn Manning / September 9, 2014
“The cache of evidential material underlying claims that corruption exists at the heart of New Zealand’s Government suggests the scope of the Prime Minister’s initiated inquiry is too narrow – Especially as New Zealand’s international reputation must now be considered….
Of course it’s damaging, the perception of this country is moving from Norway to Louisiana. We’re about 90% of the way there but the perception elsewhere is we’re only about 15% of the way there.
@ Rich
Snap. A similar thought came to me yesterday. That we are developing into a backward, red necked, ignorant, laissez faire country on a par with the southern part of the United States.
I was actually thinking of the contrast within the USA of progressive approach and having high educational standards including the humanities which seems the case in some of the eastern states. Which compare favourably to most of the south. They seem to be bogged down with a backward mentality, corrupt, almost totalitarian, with racism still prevalent, with fundalmentalist, and individualistic tendencies, their attitudes characterised as authoritarian and punitive.
Down here in the lower South Pacific both Australia and NZ seem to be going backward towards an unattractive, self-serving good ol ‘boys mentality. Someone here recently referred to how blue the regions were which was noticeable in the clubs, the farm organisations and their narrow interests, don’t lead to progressive policies or attitudes.
The dairy farming sector has gained ascendancy over the rest of NZ with huge trade concessions sweeping away tariffs that enabled our small enterprises to operate and serve the locals with local labour and materials. Now there are few jobs, instead of the range to suit everybody’s abilities, and the dairy farm exports which have become the majority of our exports and earnings, are being hocked off to overseas interests. How mad is that?
The country is being hollowed out, and the politicians have worked with the dairy farming community to diminish or sell off the framework of our country and business environment, our government and its assets, from under us. Overseas it has been known for thieves to demolish a house for its bricks while the owners were away on holiday. We have been here during this time of our country and birthright being demolished, but the stealthy nature of the theft has confused us.
I don’t see improvement likely, but if Labour gets in there may be a break for a cup of tea when some honest and meaningful talking and thinking about directions, methods, innovation, our future options, and new approaches as pilots, could happen. Really only Scandinavia seems to offer a bright spot in political evolution.
And good post, it’s refreshing not to have to read ‘won’ for ‘one’ or ‘role’ for ‘roll’ and ‘your’ for ‘you’re’. Far too many of those mistakes on this blog.
@ Rich 4.05
Thanks. Don’t be too hard on the typos, when you’re handling big, hard ideas with passion, sometimes the spelling gets secondary to the exposition. I admit one that annoys me is loose for lose.
I don’t mind the spelling mistakes but it’s not spelling here. For ‘one’ and ‘won’ they sound pretty similar but you’d never substitute won for the other in a normal sentence I figure. 🙂
On 17 July 2014 193 of my countrymen and women died a horrific death when their plane MH17 was shot down. That makes this personal for me.
Today the first preliminary report was published. The wreckage showed that it had been penetrated by many high speed “objects”.
It also stated that it would take at least another year to determine what those objects where. In the picture it sows that the objects where all of a similar size and showed signs of both incoming and outgoing projectiles especially around the cockpit area.
Russian radar evidence showed that it had been followed by a UK-25 yet which has inboard machine guns. There is witness evidence of a Ukrainian jet following the plane. I think they have a little problem stating the obvious in the current climate.
+100 travellerev…”Russian radar evidence showed that it had been followed by a UK-25 yet which has inboard machine guns. There is witness evidence of a Ukrainian jet following the plane”….
It was a great tragedy!
. ..We all know who is supporting the Ukrainians….and the USA has been very quiet on evidence for blaming the Russians….lets hope the TRUTH comes out!
I know what I want. I want an open and transparent investigation into what happened and I want my country Holland to take the lead with an international team including Russian specialists
So best you read the Dutch Safety Board preliminary report on the MH17 crash.
Bullshit, Ev. Nothing of what you claim is actually in the preliminary report, which makes findings entirely in line with the likelihood that it was taken out by a surface to air missile. Obviously, you haven’t got a clue as to how such missiles work, which is to explode near the target, peppering it with shrapnel, but out of respect for your countrymen, why don’t you educate yourself by at least reading the report before posting further rubbish.
Still, makes a change from your usual mad witterings about 9/11. 13 years on and we’re still waiting for you to provide any evidence for that paranoid obsession.
I believe this article as to who shot down the plane:
‘Dutch Safety Board (DSB) Report: Malaysian MH17 was Brought Down by “A Large Number of High Energy Objects”, Contradicts US Claims that it Was Shot Down by a “Russian Missile”’
Er… as TRP has already said, most surface-to-air or air-to-air missiles don’t actually hit their targets. They’re designed to detonate in close proximity, generating shrapnel, which is quite properly described as “A Large Number of High Energy Objects”.
All ground to air missiles that I am aware of are airburst missiles. They kill by acting more like a claymore mine than from the explosion by effectively discharging objects and casing shrapnel in front of the missile when it has a close approach. Think of a rocket propelled shotgun
“A Large Number of High Energy Objects” sounds like a SAM to me.
…as a non technical person i ask who had the MOTIVE to escalate the situation into a crisis? ( I dont think it was the Russians)
…because the downing of that plane was clearly deliberate ….and the plane by accounts was directed to that particular flight route, which wasn’t the normal flight route
Oh, and the out of respect for the victims you shall not ask questions does not work anymore.
And for those who still think that 9/11 was done by 19 boozing, coke snorting, swearing and fornicating Muslim terrorists here is a a question. Does this look like an apple to you?
I should have worded that more carefully: Out of respect for he victims it is imperative we keep an open mind and allow all information to come to the fore and base our opinion on that.
You on the other hand don’t want to inform yourself nor do you want others to do that and hence the reprehensible smear of Conspiracy nut. Must be getting quite desperate out there in troll headquarters.
And by the way thanks for trolling me. It increases the hits on my blog. Terrible how some people can’t help themselves and want to read up on shit themselves rather than being told by assholes like you.
you are a disgrace. There is a behavioural bias called”Negativity Effect” bias which seems to sum your comments up almost all the time. If you can blame bad things on people you don’t like by creating fanciful, unfounded theories, then step right up!
You may not have seen video of a fuselage panel from the RH of the fuselage near the cockpit which showed numerous odd shaped shrapnel holes of various sizes and shapes all perforating inwards. This piece of wreckage was originally removed by the militia but the retuned to accident investigators by a villager. You would not have seen this on Putin TV (RT) but it was covered in many other media outlets.
What you are suggesting is that country(wo)men of yours in senior investigative roles are corrupt – a charge I have never seen levelled at senior Dutch governmental employees who I would struggle to think have any propensity to any sort of corruption at all. But feel free to let your mental illness slander both the victims and the many investigators from numerous countries who all appear to you to be part of Don Rumsfelds master plan to do whatever it is your tinfoil hat is protecting you from.
Umm… No I didn’t say they where corrupt. I say that their report states they need an additional year to investigate the events. In fact I would go as far as to say that the Dutch safety authorities present a problem for the Dutch Government, and that of the Ukraine, Belgium and Australia who all signed a secrecy pact relating to the attack.
The Dutch safety Authorities state that the only thing certain is that a violent outside event took place which caused the plane to explode and crash.
To assume that it must have been a SAM is something the whole world is doing but not this group.
So for NATO and the entire Western Corporate Media to blame Putin and to spend billions of $ to stage military exercises while punishing Russia with economic sanctions is premature to say the least and you have to ask yourself why that is.
What we don know is that Victoria Nuland in a phone conversation said that since the US spend $ 5 billion to destabilize Ukraine in order to get someone in power who would be their puppet Europe could fuck themselves.
What we do know is that a Spanish air traffic controller in Ukraine started tweeting as soon as it happened that it was a Kiev operation.
What we do know is that there are witnesses on the ground and Russian military radar and satellite imagery proving that there was a Ukrainian fighter jet following flight MH17 at a distance of 3-5 KM capable of shooting a plane down at a distance of 12 km.
What we do know is that flight MH17 was redirected to fly over the Donetsk region at 33.000 feet rather than the normal 35.000 feet. The jet in question can fly up to about 33.000 feet.
What we don know is that a German aviation specialist as well as some of the Dutch investigators analyzed the photo material and came to the conclusion that the holes and the kind of damage was consistent with the use of 20-30 mm ammunition used by some of the Kiev jets.
What we do know is that the NATO pursues a strategy of encircling China and Russia and that the previous elected government voted to sign an economic pact with Russia rather than Europe just before President Viktor Yanukovych was ousted by paid for by the west pro European rioters.
Every one of your links go through to the same website …hmmmmmmmmm
Globalresearch.ca (also under the domain name globalresearch.org) is the website of the Montreal-based non-profit The Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG) founded by Michel Chossudovsky.
While many of Globalresearch’s articles discuss legitimate humanitarian or environmental concerns, the site has a strong undercurrent of reality warping throughout its pages, especially in relation to taking its news from sources such as Russia Today. Its view of science, the economy and geopolitics seems to be broadly conspiracist.
Whenever someone makes a remarkable claim and cites Globalresearch, they are almost certainly wrong.
I got this off the Jane’s Defence website this morning:
” Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 broke up in mid-air after the forward section of its fuselage and cockpit were “punctured by high-energy objects”, the preliminary report from the Dutch Safety Board states.
Overall, the report, published on 9 September, is very restrained in its findings but nevertheless essentially rules out any other cause for the crash beyond shrapnel from a missile strike.
Although the board notes it has so far been unable to recover any of the wreckage for forensic examination, it states that: “The pattern of damage observed in the forward fuselage and cockpit section of the aircraft was consistent with the damage that would be expected from a large number of high-energy objects that penetrated the aircraft from the outside.”
The report dismisses that the aircraft could have suffered a mechanical failure, saying that “no indications of any technical or operational issues were found with the aircraft or crew”.
Neither the cockpit voice recorder nor the flight data recorder indicated there was anything abnormal with the flight before both abruptly stopped recording at 13.20.03 hrs on 17 July. MH17 was in contact with air traffic control immediately before its breakup and gave no suggestion of any flight issues. The last transmission began at 12.19.56 hrs, only 7 seconds before both recorders stopped operating.
Air traffic radar data contained within the report tracks only three other aircraft in the vicinity of MH17 at the time of the shoot-down.
ANALYSIS
Overall the report adds little to what was already understood about the crash of MH17 over east Ukraine. However, while the report’s preliminary findings don’t assign blame or attribute the origins of the apparent shrapnel damage, they are still significant in that they form the first official report into the fate of MH17.
The board hopes that its full report will be able to forensically examine the crash wreckage, and although this may not occur for some time it may be able to conclusively determine the weapon system the shrapnel came from.
Overall the report does nothing to dispel the theory that MH17 was downed by a surface-to-air missile system, such as the Buk (SA-11 ‘Gadfly’), while effectively debunking any other option.
The radar tracking contained within the report is particularly compelling. That the three aircraft identified in the vicinity of MH17 are civilian airliners appears to comprehensively rule out the possibility of an air-to-air shoot-down of MH17. This comes despite Russia going to some lengths to claim a Ukrainian Sukhoi Su-25 ‘Frogfoot’ ground attack aircraft was responsible.
Moreover, the shrapnel damage inflicted on the front of MH17’s fuselage appears consistent with the high-explosive fragmentation warhead that arms the Buk’s 9M38/9M38M1 missile.”
SU-25 with it’s 2x 30mm cannons which pack a might punch as its design to attack ground targets and sustain burst from its cannons will cause the jet to stall. It can carry Infa- Red missiles as well but these IR missiles are not full spectrum ones which means it has to attack from behind and are only design to attack helicopters and other ground attack aircraft such as the A-10 etc. SU-25’s are not radar equip either so the pilot would have to do a Ground Control Interception (GCI). From what photo’s I have seen so far from open and close sources point towards a SAM and the only know SAM unit in the area at the was a BUK (SA-11’Gadfly’) which the Rebels had at the time.
Find this from the BBC news website http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29109398
Ah, the good old BBC. The same BBC who announced the never before happened event of a steel framed building twice reinforced to withstand a nuclear blast collapsing due to simple office fires 20 minutes before it happened. That BBC???
The guns in an SU-25 are not machine guns. They are cannons and fire explosive warheads. They tend to penetrate the thin aluminium of a target aircraft and explode inside it. The entry and exit holes are quite different. Depleted uranium is an anti-armour warhead. Most aircraft do not have armour plating. If an Su-25 fired at a commercial jet at 12 km with cannon, it would be incredibly lucky to hit it once, let alone many times.
The holes would have been caused by a proximity fused shrapnel warhead. These are found in missiles, both air to air and ground to air. The information that’s been released so far doesn’t convince me either way. There are still three suspects.
You said “there was a Ukrainian fighter jet following flight MH17 at a distance of 3-5 KM capable of shooting a plane down at a distance of 12 km.” The GsH-30-2 cannon has a maximum range of 4 km. It is an air to ground weapon, and the Su-25 lacks the sophisticated sighting mechanism needed for attacking other aircraft in flight. It is optimised for attacking tanks, armoured personnel carriers, and logistical vehicles. I expect that its maximum effective air to air range would be somewhat less than 1 km, and possibly as low as 500m.
If it did fire at the Malaysian jet, it would have been much more likely to be with missiles. The other options are an Ukrainian BUK, a Russian BUK, or a rebel BUK. Given that these are fairly sophisticated systems, the rebels may not have been able to use them effectively. The most likely as far as I’m concerned is an Ukrainian BUK, either by mistake or in a false flag operation. This fits all the evidence I’m aware of. Second is a rebel BUK, followed by the Ukrainian SU-25 with missiles. I’d put the Russians last. The SU-25 has several other drawbacks anyway. It’s a ground attack aircraft, with a loaded ceiling of 16,000 ft. At altitude it’s slower than the Boeing.
My opinion too. So why the economic sanctions and the drive to an all out conflict? From two of the suspects towards the other. The same suspects who have been found in collusion before the plane was shot down. As this telephone conversation shows!
Dotcom told the Herald he would present “absolutely concrete” evidence that Mr Key knew about him earlier than the Prime Minister had claimed.
But Dotcom is unsure how the public will react, especially following the fallout – or lack of fallout – from Dirty Politics.
“When I read Nicky Hager’s book, I thought, ‘It’s over for John Key’. I didn’t think the New Zealand public would put up with something like that, and I’m really surprised how little impact the book had.
“If he survived that, he could probably survive shooting little kittens in his garden with a shotgun, even if there is picture evidence of that. It’s a mystery. I can’t understand it.
“Will what I present change the election result, or cause serious damage to the Prime Minister? I don’t know. It should.”
So either KDC knows hes got nothing OR hes trying to late to underpromise and over deliver…
I suspect that unfortunately, a good number of National voters are actually too stupid to understand the ramifications of Dirty Politics on our democracy.
b) the govt using state power and a system of proxies to dishonestly attack people and manipulate the electorate all the while keeping its own hands clean
pick a or b – or better yet read the book and stop making an ass of yourself
Is he hinting at photographic evidence? That would be concrete. A dated correspondence? That would be concrete. If we accept the unofficial dialogue that KDC is a “megalomaniac” when not on camera/radio, it seems unlikely that he would under-promise on evidence to crush his enemies. When you’re looking at someone whose match is the legal power of the USA, surely he isn’t a guy that would mess around to lose.
Concrete evidence isn’t a dream. That evidence will be presented in a few days. Anyone who thinks that the election has already happened, and that National have already one, they are the ones dreaming.
You right wing nut jobs have abysmal judgement abilities, extremely poor comprehension and limited understanding of human characteristics. A good example of the latter is your profoundly blind adherence to the psychopathology of the current NAct government.
@ Chooky
I’ll knock one back with you any minute – Cheers. What should be done after Sept 20th when we know who or what is the government? What’s the appropriate beverage (libation!)?
@ Chooky
Champers eh! I might go for a nice Old Mout cider or a glass of Founders beer. But also I’ll have some nice water, it is not something to take for granted these days. I’ll probably be watching here as I haven’t bothered with switching over to digital yet.
Yeah no point with PR, he thinks it’s OK to use children as a threat for political purposes. So the best move is to realise he is a low life and ignore what he writes. I do and my days are cleaner – because you can’t wash away that filth.
@ adam
Yes PR is just amusing himself. Every time he ‘participates’ in a thread he is just insulting us and what we are concerned about. I would like to see him banned. He doesn’t add anything useful to my understanding of political matters only gives me a sense of despair. Pukeish Rogue is the appropriate name.
[lprent: I noticed a few days ago that you appear to have resumed doing a series of these kinds of one-line taunts that I associate with trolling. Certainly you aren’t saying anything in them. Looking back over the comments, the frequency has been increasing markedly over the last week interspersed with odd comments that are worth reading.
You know better. If you feel the urge to do it again, then I suggest that you resist.
Otherwise there is a multiplier on a 4 week ban that I nearly just gave you. I’ll put you on moderation until I am sure you have seen this note. ]
Just putting this again as there is still time to get to it if you are in Wellington.
NOTICE!
Coalition for Better Broadcasting –
Wellington protest against Dirty Politics
Wednesday at 12pm noon, Parliament steps, Wellington City
Calling all Wellingtonions who are concerned about the issues raised in the Dirty Politics book and subsequent media. Please show your opposition to this style of politics tomorrow, Wednesday at this family friendly gathering and protest.
Speakers include the CBB Chairperson, Dr Peter Thompson.
More info is available on the Kiwis for Clean Politics Facebook page
Increased voting could help the Left Adam. The South Aucklanders (and others) who didn’t vote in big numbers were perhaps the 10,000 of votes that National crept in by. But no one is sure what increased numbers will mean.
The Leaders Debate Poll reflects my view of the effective Cunliffe and my dislike for Key.
You are right both links interesting.
National was invited but did not attend so what they might do about the spending on motorways instead of investing in the region, is a question that could not be put.
But perhaps they agree with the point of view of economist from Shamubeel Eaqub
in his recent book. (In Google this has a heading NZ has zombie towns that need to close — economist http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/nz-has-zombie-towns-need-close-%E2%80%94-economist-md-159124)
Internet-Mana also wasn’t at the meeting.
Focus NZ seems to be a recent formation and looking at business and the economy with a regional and rural viewpoint. They have an active campaign of speaking at meetings.
Kelvin Davis is Labour list MP candidate for Northland’s Tai Tokerau seat
Willow-Jean Prime is candidate for Labour Northland seat
Roads, jobs and wages the big issues for North
11:06 AM Tuesday Sep 9, 2014
Roads, jobs and wages were three of the key issues emerging from a candidates meeting in Kawakawa just two weeks out from the general election.
Recent floods in Kawakawa and Moerewa made the state of Northland roads, and claims of cuts to regional road funding, a hot topic.
A few bold new ideas were floated, such as a proposal for a rapid rail link, but perhaps the most striking aspect of the meeting was the age of the candidates – three of the six would-be Parliamentarians were in their early 30s.
Labour’s Willow-Jean Prime was the youngest at 31, with the Maori Party’s Te Hira Paenga and Anaru Kaipo both 32.
Responding to a question about roads at Thursday night’s meeting, Focus NZ leader Ken Rintoul said his party had a “cunning plan” for a rapid rail link from Hamilton to Kerikeri or Otiria.
Carrying passengers by day and freight by night it had a five-year payback so it made economic sense. It would also take a lot of traffic off Northland roads.
Green candidate David Clendon said his party would axe the $1.8 billion “gold-plated” motorway to Wellsford. Northland would benefit more from a spend of .5 billion to fix the worst bottlenecks on its state highway network.
Mrs Prime [Labour]said the Far North District Council had not received any government funding for sealing metal roads in six years, because money once spent on rural roads was now being diverted to the Government’s Roads of National Significance. Meanwhile many Far Northerners living next to unsealed roads were “literally choking on dust”, she said.
Mr Rintoul said $55 million in road user charges and fuel taxes paid in Northland was being “sucked out” of the region to pay for motorways in the big cities…….
Remember though that Winstons core voters are the elderly and both National and Winston say they won’t raise the pension age but lets face it I don’t think even Winnie knows where he’ll go (apart from the bar 😉 )
So its fair to say that the policy is (being polite) a dogs breakfast although kiwiblog suggested an independent commission set up to price the policies put out by political parties and I’d be ok with that
Know your consultancy – NZIER, your lobby group Federated Farmers, your right wing economists the Banks’ boys, Dr Oliver Hartwich and The NZ Initiative et al. And the RWs talk about unions as if they are all-powerful and deathly dangerous. The trouble is that all are affected under that cliche that ‘Power tends to corrupt and absolute power does corrupt absolutely.’
Incidentally NZIER has 20 talking heads. This must be an expensive outfit to run. They should be starting out at about $100,000 p.a. each. Perhaps some are on contract.
Stats, models for hire! Economic procurers. What shape economy do you want?
We guarantee to find the sexiest one just to suit your needs and requirements. We can model it for you, and have it sitting by your side to give comfort in times of stress.
it shows your priorities.
It shows how someone choosing (or not) to ask for more information is not a reliable indicator that said information is lacking.
And it highlights just how much of a hollow, slimy partisan hack you are.
PR
How about the Nats policies costed
Now the tax break per household is $1500
With say 1 million households (Guess) that is a cost of 1.5 Billion
But the amount Key said was 500m
20 secs of reflection and a quick rough calc shows that the cost is THREE times his value!!!!!
Its not provocative, its a legimate question in that Labour may well be able to cobble together a coilition and then might be able to put through a tax that simply won’t work and might even cost more then it brings in
I disagree. Matching CGT and GST regimes with Australia has huge benefits and harms those who use the distortions to play both countries off against each other.
Second I welcome the Greens extending the debate over the tax changes, I wish we have had a real debate, but early on National line has been to poor scorn on the debate, and nothing has changed.
We need the change that CGT provides, that is to shift investment from growing a housing bubble and growing businesses. When its easier to buy and sell real estate than to build businesses, then having the same rewards is dumb.
As for the notion that economist all agree, laughable. And that we’ve already forgotten how dismal their science is… ..laughable.
Just because a tax isn’t the best perfect neo-liberal policy does not make it dangerous and an error to implement.
“Honour the achievements and contributions of an inspirational Kiwi by nominating a New Zealander who has made a significant contribution to our nation and makes us proud of our country and what can be achieved. Their pursuit of excellence may be in areas of – science, business, the arts, cultural or community involvement, sport, education and health – their achievements have positive effects on how we feel about our nation and ourselves. The New Zealander of the Year Award will recognise an individual, who, through his or her achievements, has made an outstanding contribution to the well being of the nation”
I can think of one individual who has been inspirational. His pursuit of excellence has been in the area of strengthening Democracy in our country. He has recently written a book, that has been the fastest selling book in New Zealand’s history, providing evidence of the important message he has provided. He is a quietly spoken, extremely intelligent and articulate man, who has clearly made an outstanding contribution to the well being of the nation.
I am sure that more than one nomination for this outstanding man, will not be a concern to those considering the nominations?
John Campbell of TV3 for the amazing amount of social good he has achieved by highlighting social injustices,issues and needs through his Campbell live programme.
The builder of The Standard infrastructure, and who keeps this blog resource going. Along with a group of fervent, ethical, dedicated activists, who together provide a base for those that look for the truth, that is strong enough to handle the truth, The name of Lynn Prentice is the not-so-quiet hero of the decade!
Winston Peters positioning himself a bit more snuggly as kingmaker. Take note voters who want a change of govt, and lefties who think he can be trusted.
Last week Peter called for a Royal Commission into the events exposed in Nicky Hager’s book Dirty Politics, which used correspondence hacked from Whale Oil blogger Cameron Slater to reveal some inner workings of the National government.
NZ First could not go into coalition with a party which did not meet his demand, he said.
But today Peters appeared to signal that comments from National leader John Key – that an inquiry into Judith Collins could be widened to cover other issues – were enough to satisfy him.
Peters appeared to say that the term “Royal Commission” was simply an expression or slip of the tongue.
“I just called it a royal commission because I started out before anybody else calling for it,” Peters told Radio New Zealand.
He was comfortable with an inquiry which had powers “sufficient to get to the truth”.
Peters believed Key would be prepared to accept to widen the inquiry and that he had already done so.
Mai Chen said on the National Radio about 2 weeks ago that a Public Enquiry is about the same as a Royal Commission. RC is sort of an old title. Not sure what Key would mean by a “widened enquiry” but again any serious enquiry should have the terms of reference include “any other matters arising.” We will see but after the Election.
My point was that Peters originally positioned himself as champion of democracy, and now is respositioning himself as potential partner of the very people that are undermining democracy. It’s classic Peters and shame on the people it fools.
Weka, I think Winston is battling the Conservative party for the disaffected National vote. I suspect his own polling is showing that the Conservatives are close to or over the 5% barrier, and that National and the Conservatives together can govern without him. Survival mode for him.
A vote for Conservative is a vote for the death penalty. Binding referendums are already being lined up by wealthy people who want parliament out of the process of legislating our country.
Yeah, we don’t want the Conservatives anywhere near parliament. Better those votes go to Winston if they are not going to the left, and ex-National voters need to believe there are no barriers to Winston working with Key.
Yes I really don’t want batsh*t Colin to be seen as one of my “leaders”. (bit of cynicism there). He’s a rich Lombard with not a clue. (Oxymoronically, he admits on TV that he’s made a lot of his money through Foreigners buying NZ land…but like Winston, opposes it.) He’s an insult to bats.
TV3 poll tonight puts them dangerously close to 5%. Best case scenario, they poll just under 5% on election day and waste thousands of right wing votes. Worst case scenario- them and National in coalition running amok for the next three years. It would be so strange if the Dirty Politics scandal gave us the worst government we have had in a couple of decades because National voters went to the Conservative party.
Having the Conservatives in Parliament worries me more than having National back for a 3rd term.
A few months ago I read a book about those students back in the 1960’s that bussed down into Mississippi to sign black people up to vote.
It seems to me that Colin Craig, Garth McVicar and Christine Rankin (southern belle material if I do say so myself) want to turn New Zealand into a replica of Mississippi during the Jim Crow era.
Jan Logie/Green Party on raising benefit levels above poverty line.
Sadly can’t commit to doing that straight away but we have committed to raising parents receiving income support & removing discrimination. We’ll also reduce cost of housing, power, doctors & childcare + review the Act & policies of WINZ to ensure people can access their entitlements, be treated with respect & have enough to participate in society.
Will be interested to see why the GP feel that it can’t be done now. Whether it’s a costing issue or something else.
Sorting out WINZ culture properly would make a big difference too if the dept was required to make sure that beneficiaries were informed of their entitlements and supported to access them. Raising base benefits is probably easier though.
@ Weka
Agree that sorting out WINZ culture is important. Politicians have to be responsible for the delivery of their programs, no use saying ‘It’s an operational matter’, don’t bother me further. Not sure how to get that done though. Labour got into trouble with Christine and her knees and earrings as symbols for the corporate queen style. What is needed is sober humanity under any sort of decent outer chosen, but the style of performance and attitude must change and it may need a change of CEO. And one that replaces must have a different grid of requirements and expectations to meet.
And give an immediate 10% rise on the benefits. Before Christmas.
If we get a change of government too. Oh happy day.
(Get Elvis to sing that for you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dGVqFPQF8E)
or try –
Over the Rainbow with the very weighty Israel now dead but with a great Hawaiian spirit. IZ Over the Rainbow
It’s one of the conversations I’d like to have after the election. There’s a broad consensus about the need to change the culture, but very little on how it could be done. I agree that the choice of CEO is one of the critical things. I would rate compassion as one of the top criteria.
@ weka
Definitely got to be near the top along with experience in working in the social and not for profit sector, with practical and successful expertise behind him/her.
This generic thing is crazy, there may be a management base that applies to all entities, but treating people as units to be pushed around with efficiency as the first priority is not the humane way.
A couple of questions to our Standard friends .How many of you noticed Mike Hoskins derogatory remark regarding Labours tax policy when dismissing Harawera ‘s answer,
Not being very familier with Epsom are the residents of Epsom as mean and nasty as the one’s interviewed onTV one Tuesday?
Not all of them, posty, but mean and nasty is par for the course for Epsom and Remuera. Mind you, I think there’s a lot of students/young professionals renting around Newmarket, so a small flame of humanity may still flicker on.
Media is full of right wing ‘faces’. After the election I was going just to listen to Nat radio, then I found Guyon there. Cripes, is there any unbiased non-branded news presenting left in NZ? Its because they have face and name recognition that they are paid heaps more, and so they falling into the top tax range, and thus have a direct incentive to seek lower taxes for themselves.
He’s be so happy to read this ! But LPrent has him on warning for a long lockout today .. but wasn’t it good last week without the rwnj mob … clutter is a good word Paul.
Yeah, I mostly just read here and don’t post much, but I am really sick of the right wing trolls like PR. Why can’t they just be banned? They contribute nothing and waste everyones time. More lefties might contribute here if the trolls were gone.
I know who the opposition is though, I hear them all day through the mainstream media. Fighting with paid RWNJs here as well is just demoralizing.
I’ve been following the Scottish Independence referendum with fascination. The Yes campaign have all the same problems we have with a hostile, biased media but yet they are on the verge of achieving the incredible. They have done it all with a grassroots organization. To get a cohesive grassroots organization going you need to make people feel joined together with optimism and hope. I think the NZ left need a positive place free of RWNJs to congregate and share ideas.
Yes, standard modus operandi for the right. Has anybody asked for tighter moderating of this site to stop the RWNJs? Why should the left provide yet another place for them to spout their venom? I don’t think the left is going to get much further ahead in NZ unless some things are changed. The Scottish experience has shown that if you give people hope then they will get engaged in politics. That hope is not going to come via the MSM in NZ, there needs to be other channels.
I think middle NZ are open to new ideas if you can offer a vision. But identity politics has had its day. I’m going to assume the 20% of people who have stopped voting in the last few decades are left voters. We need those people to re-engage, and it will need to start at grass roots level. If the Scots can take back their country then surely we can. This indyref of theirs is really about getting rid of the neolibs in Westminster. Maybe we need a new political party on the left, a party that can take over from Labour which is now moribund with career politicians who are more interested in a lifetime career than making a difference. But first it would be nice to have a place to talk without the RWNJs.
They can share their views on the extreme right wing sites they frequent.
As others have said, let’s keep this site for the constructive free sharing of progressive ideas.
The puerile comments brigade from the right is very tiresome.
“…For five years, Rosalina Filoa Leavasa applied for income-related support for rent to which she was not entitled — offending sparked by financial pressures and arduous living conditions.
The mother of three, who was supporting a son with epilepsy and a husband with chronic arthritis, was working seven days a week to make ends meet but still struggled, her lawyer Justin Harder said.
For four months the family lived in a metal garage – which he said exacerbated their medical issues – before moving to a house in Mangere…”
A couple of thoughts:
1. Doesn’t this also mean that for five years the processing and auditing of the WINZ office was amazingly substandard?
2. If she was supporting a son with epilepsy and a husband with chronic arthritis on a caregiver’s wage – why the hell is she not entitled to income-related support?
OPEN LETTER to Stephen Franks, Principal, Franks and Ogilvie
“Are these ‘WhaleDump’ emails true?”
Dear Stephen,
It is with some deep concern, that I have read the following alleged email correspondence, between Jordan Williams, then, as I understand it, employed as a Solicitor at your company, Franks and Ogilvie.
Take your pick – it was either Jeremy Elwood or Scott Yorke (I expect not Yorke) on Mora’s ‘Panel’ half an hour ago – “Kim Dotcom and Hone Harawira are the two most hated people in New Zealand……”. Strictly that assessment defies proof, or disproof for that matter, but isn’t it a tad hysterical ?
My gut feeling tells me it is. If so does that not typify the oftentimes ludicrous offerings in this spot ? As always unchallenged by the unctuous Mora as eager stroker of the pulsating vanities of so many of his guests.
..and that wasn’t the only utter shite he spouted..
..and elwood should stick to his day-job..
..as an attempt at being a serious opinionater he is just another (surprisingly) reactionary-voice in the talkback-babble..
..yet another dire panel..
..and as a factcheck on mora:..i have heard him say that the mana party pot policy is the result of internets’ pot-policy..(subtext:..dotcom pulling harawiras’ strings..i know what you are doing mr mora..)
..this is utter bullshit..the mana medicinal-marijuana policy went thru the policy process before the int/mana deal was inked..
..i know ‘cos i was there for part of it..argued for it..
The Panel is best avoided.
Full of people with strong regressive ideas on issues they are uninformed about.
Better to have a show that had on informed guests with a touch more humility.
Nice article about media bias in the wake of Dirty Politics.
The MSM has resumed it’s focus on trivialities that undermine the ‘left’ parties. Not just because that’s what a compromised, biased media would do, but because the more you look at it the more you see that it’s not about collusion between our govt and a gang of hideous bloggers, it’s about collusion between our govt and a gang of hideous bloggers and the MSM.
They’ve realised that this story is a bit to close to being about themselves.
Puddlegum, you do not need to be on Twitter (ie have a Twitter account) to read people’s feeds on Twitter. I refuse to join, but am able to read Twitter feeds.
All you need to do is google – eg Duncan Garner Twitter – go to the link; then go to the Full Profile to get onto the full feed for that person. Then you can save to your Favorites or Favorites bar (or Bookmarks) to be able to read their Twitter feed. You can then read conversations when this shows under a comment; or click on the “2 hrs” or whatever shows in the timescale to read replies etc.
I don’t think Key fired at all tonight. He’s looking tired. He’s a bit gabby but what he says is meaningless. David Cunliffe is the one with the eloquence and the reality.
Great stuff DC on TV3 debate tonight.
I can’t stand Paul Henry so am not watching the after-match – don’t want to spoil my own enjoyment of DC’s good performance…… despite him not getting half of the airtime !
The test is all done. Didn’t fall back to a readonly at Sydney correctly (damnit).
However the operating system upgrades worked perfectly apart from having to recompile the ethernet drivers again for the new kernel. I have to make those automatic.
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It is one of the most successful products of our German-language partner website klimafakten.de: a large-format infographic about typical disinformation strategies, not just in terms of climate. The poster has previously been available in eight languages, and now two more have been added. The new translations were produced with partners ...
1. Poor old New Zealand was exposed to all the world with its debt trousers around its ankles in a briefing yesterday by Nicola Willis. Just how huge is our debt?a. 42% of GDPb. 69% of GDPc. 94% of GDPd. 420% of GDP2. How does that compare to a proper ...
Back in August, National sabotaged human rights by appointing terf and genocide supporter Stephen Rainbow as Chief Human Rights Commissioner, and terf and white supremacist Melissa Derby as Race Relations Commissioner. The appointments seemed calculated to undermine public confidence in the Commission, and there were obvious questions about how they ...
The second phase of the inquest into the mosque shooting is currently ongoing, and it is right now examining how the terrorist was able to obtain his firearms license and the guns used to commit the attack. The answer is “Really, really easily”. The 10 year expiration period for firearms ...
Is anyone surprised about NZ’s finances? Yesterday Treasury released its latest financial report. The operating balance deficit was $1.8bn higher than forecast and essentially $3.4 billion worse compared to the prior year.Government revenues were up from solid wage growth in an inflationary environment - albeit business performance was weaker with ...
Uh uh, KātuareheYou ain't readyWe're not flying on the same planeUh, KātuareheYou ain't readyI see you trying it's a damn shame, uhSong by Anna CoddingtonThis morning, I was going to write about some of the stories from the week, but it was all a bit depressing. “The Trickle Down that ...
Government budget problems and public service cuts are putting pressure on communities, with frontline services and media integrity at risk. E tū is sounding the alarm over TVNZ’s cost-cutting; MUNZ challenges KiwiRail layoffs and Unions Wellington succeeded in stopping the sale of Wellington Airport. With this economic uncertainty, grassroots efforts ...
Kia ora and welcome to another weekly roundup of stories that caught our eye about cities and how they work. Feel free to share any links we might have missed, in the comments below. As always, this post is compiled by our largely volunteer team, and your support makes it ...
Open access notablesManifold increase in the spatial extent of heatwaves in the terrestrial Arctic, Rantanen et al., Communications Earth & Environment:It is widely acknowledged that the intensity, frequency and duration of heatwaves are increasing worldwide, including the Arctic. However, less attention has been paid to the land area affected ...
While we were away earlier this year, some men got into our house and took away the big slider door and windows that open onto our upstairs deck. I watched the whole thing happen on the other side of the world on our security camera. I had told the guy who ...
Vox Populi: It is worth noting that if Auckland’s public health services were forced to undergo cutbacks of the same severity as Dunedin’s, and if the city’s Mayor and its daily newspaper were able to call the same percentage of its citizens onto the streets, then the ensuing demonstrations would number ...
One of the risks of National's Muldoonist fast-track law is corruption. If Ministers can effectively approve projects by including them in the law for rubberstamping, then that creates some very obvious incentives for applicants seeking approval and Ministers seeking to line their or their party's pockets. And its a risk ...
“The Government accounts released today show that spending and debt continues to grow under the current Government, but there is no plan to deliver a better economy,” said NZCTU Te Kauae Kaimahi Economist Craig Renney. “Net Core Crown Debt increased by $20bn last year, with revenue from taxation also rising ...
The Reserve Bank announced yesterday a 0.5% cut to the OCR, which the CTU has called “a recognition of weakness” in a floundering economy. Joint health unions have released a letter sent to Health NZ regarding cuts to digital infrastructure, amidst the news coming out of the 450-page document dump ...
In May, Florida’s Governer Ron DeSantis, who called Florida the place where “woke goes to die”, signed in a law that scrubbed climate change from the state’s thinking.Gone was the concept of climate change - and addressing planet-warming pollution was no longer Florida’s concern. Instead, the state’s priorities would focus ...
I am caught in the change of a tropical rainstormOut there between green and blueAnd it’s telling me that you’re so hard to forgetI'm a traveller just passing throughAsian Paradise by Sharon O'Neill.Note: With the coalition's actions, it can be hard these days to tell if something is satirical or ...
Hello to all. Due to the need to travel to Australia to be with an unwell family member there will not be a Hoon today at 5pm and I will not be posting emails or podcasts until next week at the earliest.Ngā mihi nuiBernard ...
All-new 2023 census data has just been released, giving a great window into: how many New Zealanders there are, who we are, where we work (and how we get there), and who still has landline phones (31% of households!). But it’s also fun* to put things in a historical context. ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate ConnectionsEmily Ogburn, right, hugs her friend Cody Klein after he brought her a meal on October 2, 2024, in Swannanoa, North Carolina. Ogburn's home was spared and she spent the morning of the storm helping and comforting neighbors who had found shelter on ...
Back in April, Teanau Tuiono's member's bill to undo a historic crime and restore citizenship to Samoans stripped of it by Muldoon unexpectedly passed its first reading and was sent to select committee. That committee has now reported back. But while the headline is that it has unanimously recommended that ...
How's this for an uncomfortable truth?The Nazis' industrial killing was new, and the Jewish case is different. But so is every case. And some things are all too similar....…European world expansion, accompanied as it was by shameless defence of extermination, created habits of thought and political precedents that made way ...
Welcome to the August/September 2024 Economic Bulletin. In our monthly feature we provide an analysis of the gender pay gap in New Zealand for 2024. The mean gender pay gap was 8.9%, which is down from 9.8% in 2023. This meant that, on average, women will be “working for free” ...
The scale of delays on our rail network were highlighted by the Herald last week and while it’s bad, it also highlights the huge opportunity for getting our rail network back up to speed. KiwiRail has promised to cut delays on Auckland trains, amid growing concerns about the readiness of ...
Kia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top six things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Wednesday, October 9:The Government has cut $6 million from subsidies for an Auckland social housing provider with three days notice, which will force it to leave houses empty ...
Once I could laugh with everyoneOnce I could see the good in meThe black and the white distinctivelyColouringHolding the world insideNow, all the world is grey to meNobody can seeYou gotta believe it!Songwriter: Brian MayMartyn Bradbury, aka Bomber, a workingman’s flat cap and a beard ripe for socialism. Love him ...
I know it may seem an odd and obvious thing to break a year's worth of radio silence over, but how come the British Conservative Party MPs (and to be fair, the Labour Labour Party, when they have their leadership shenanigans) get to use a different and better way electoral ...
HealthNZ yesterday “dropped” 454 pages of documents relating to its financial performance over the last 18 months. The documents confirm that it has a massive structural deficit, which, without savings, is expected to be $1.4 billion annually beyond the current financial year. But the papers also suggest that Health NZ ...
Hi,It’s been awhile since we’ve done an AMA on Webworm — so let’s do it. Over the next 48 hours, I’ll be milling around in the comments answering any questions you might have. Leave a commentI genuinely look forward to these things as I love the Webworm community so much ...
This is a re-post from the Climate BrinkMuch of my immediate family lives in Asheville and Black Mountain, NC. While everyone is thankfully safe, this disaster struck much closer to home for me than most. There is lots that needs to be done for disaster relief, and I’d encourage folks ...
The past couple of days, an online furore has blown up regarding commentator/scholar Corey Olsen and his claim that there is no Tolkienian canon. The sort of people who delight in getting outraged over such things have been piling onto Olsen, and often doing it in a matter that is ...
Perhaps when the archaeologists come picking their way through the ruins of a civilisation that was so fond of its fossil fuel comforts it wasn't prepared to give up any of them, they will find these two artefacts. Read more ...
Here in Aotearoa, our right-wing, ATLAS-network-backed government is rolling back climate policy and plotting to raise emissions to allow the fossil fuel industry a few more years of profit. And in Canada, their right-wing, ATLAS-network-backed opposition is campaigning on doing the same thing: Mass hunger and malnutrition. A looming ...
UPDATED:August 2024The New Zealand Council of Trade Unions Te Kauae Kaimahi (NZCTU) notes with extreme concern the ongoing genocide in Gaza, as well as the continued encroachment of illegal Israeli settlements in Palestinian territories. The NZCTU is extremely concerned that there is increasing risk of a broader regional ...
I’m just a bottom feederScum of the earthAnd I’m cursedWith the burden of empathyMy fellow humans matter to meBottom Feeder - Written, Performed and Recorded by Tane Cotton.Bottom Feeder or Fluffernutter, which one are you? Or, more to the point, which do you identify as? It’s not simply a measure ...
Corrections Minister Mark Mitchell says he anticipates an increase in people “coming into the Corrections system”. The Corrections Department has applied for fast tracking so it will be able to add more beds at Mt Eden Prison when needed. Photo: Getty ImagesKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top six ...
Remember when a guy walked into a mosque and shot everyone inside? He killed 44 people. And he then drove to a second mosque and shot and killed 7 more. He was on his way to a third mosque in Ashburton when he was stopped and arrested by the New ...
This is a re-post from the Climate Brink by Andrew Dessler On Bluesky, it was pointed out that Asheville, NC was recently listed as a place to go to avoid the climate crisis. link Mother Nature sent a “letter to the editor” indicating that she didn’t agree: ...
On the weekend, Infrastructure Minister Chris Bishop admitted that not everyone will “like” his fast track wish-list, before adding: “We are a government that does not shy away from those tough decisions.” Hmm. IMO, there’s nothing “tough” about a government using its numbers in Parliament to bulldoze aside the public’s ...
First they came for Newshub, and I said nothing because I didn’t watch TV3. Then they came for One News, and I said nothing because I didn’t pay much attention to them either. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak out because all the ...
Something I especially like about you all, you loyal and much-appreciated readers of More Than A Feilding, is that you are so very widely experienced and knowledgeable. Not just saying that. You really are.So I'm mindful as I write today that at least one of you has been captain of an ...
The National Government has sneakily reneged on protecting the Hauraki Gulf, reducing the protected area of the marine park and inviting commercial fishing in the depleted seascape. ...
Labour welcomes the release of the Government’s response to the report into the North Island weather events but urges it to push forward with legislative change this term. ...
The Green Party echoes a call for banks to divest from entities linked to Israel’s illegal settlements in Palestine, and says Crown Financial Institutions should follow suit. ...
Te Whatu Ora’s finances have deteriorated under the National Government, turning a surplus into a deficit, and breaking promises made to New Zealanders to pay for it. ...
The Prime Minister’s decision to back his firearms minister on gun law changes despite multiple warnings shows his political judgement has failed him yet again. ...
Yesterday the government announced the list of 149 projects selected for fast-tracking across Aotearoa. Trans-Tasman Resources’ plan to mine the seabed off the coast of Taranaki was one of these projects. “We are disgusted but not surprised with the government’s decision to fast-track the decimation of our seabed,” said Te ...
At Labour’s insistence, Te Whatu Ora financial documents have been released by the Health Select Committee today showing more cuts are on the way for our health system. ...
Fresh questions have been raised about the conduct of the Firearms Minister after revelations she misled New Zealanders about her role in stopping gun reforms prior to the mosque shootings. ...
Education Minister Erica Stanford still can’t confirm when the Government will deliver the $2 billion worth school upgrades she cut earlier this year. ...
Labour acknowledges the hundreds of workers today losing their jobs as the Winstone Pulp mill closes and what it will mean for their families and community. ...
In Budget '24, the National Government put aside $216 million to pay for a tax cut which mainly benefitted one company: global tobacco giant Philip Morris. Instead of giving hundreds of millions to big tobacco, National could have spent the money sensibly, on New Zealand. ...
Te Whatu Ora’s financials from the last year show the Government has manufactured a financial crisis to justify making cuts that are already affecting patient care. ...
Over 41,000 Palestinian’s have been murdered by Israel in the last 12 months. At the same time, Israel have launched attacks against at least four other countries in the Middle East including Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, and Iran. “You cannot play the aggressor and the victim at the same time,” said ...
Associate health minister Casey Costello has made a fool of the Prime Minister, because the product she’s been fighting to get a tax cut for and he’s been backing her on is now illegal – and he doesn’t seem to know it. ...
The Finance and Expenditure Committee’s inquiry into climate adaptation is something that must be built on for an enduring framework to manage climate risk. ...
The Government is taking tertiary education down a worrying path with new reporting finding that fourteen of the country’s sixteen polytechnics couldn’t survive on their own,” Labour’s tertiary education spokesperson Dr Deborah Russell says. ...
Today the government announced a $30m cut to Te Ahu o Te Reo Māori- a programme that develops te reo Māori among our kaiako. “This announcement is just the latest in an onslaught of attacks on te iwi Māori,” said Te Pāti Māori Co-Leader Rawiri Waititi. ...
The Government has shown its true intentions for the public service and economy – it’s not to get more public servants back to the office, it’s more job losses. ...
The National Government is hiding the gaps in the health workforce from New Zealanders, by not producing a full workforce plan nearly a year into their tenure. ...
The Government’s work to boost export value has hit another milestone, with a new dairy Bill passing its first reading in Parliament today, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced. “The Dairy Industry Restructuring (Export Licences Allocation) Amendment Bill will modernise New Zealand’s dairy export quota system to grow export and farmgate ...
Legislation that will help protect New Zealanders from cybercrime has passed first reading in Parliament today, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “11% of New Zealanders were victims of fraud and cybercrime in 2023, causing significant financial harm and emotional distress. “The Budapest Convention, also known as the Council of Europe ...
Good evening Before discussing the ‘advancing of New Zealand and Asia relations’, we would like to congratulate the Asia New Zealand Foundation and acknowledge its significant contribution to New Zealand’s relationship with, and understanding of, Asia over the past 30 years. Can we also welcome Thitinan Pongsudhirak, one of ...
Kia ora koutou Greetings from Wellington. I am sorry I can’t be with you in person today, but I’m delighted that I can talk to you virtually. I’d like to begin by acknowledging your chair Bill Goodwin and members of your board. I’d also like to acknowledge the fitness of ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters is travelling this week to Bangkok for talks with his Thai counterpart, and to Jakarta to attend the inauguration of Indonesia’s next President, Prabowo Subianto. “New Zealand is committed to our Comprehensive Partnership with Indonesia, and our shared ties as democracies in the Indo-Pacific region,” Mr ...
The one-stop-shop Fast-track Approvals Bill, and the 149 projects listed in the Bill, will help rebuild our struggling economy and kick-start economic growth across the country, Minister for Infrastructure Chris Bishop says. “Since 2022, New Zealand has battled anaemic levels of economic growth. If we want Kiwi kids to stop ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon today announced the appointment of Sir Brian Roche as the next Public Service Commissioner. “I am delighted to appoint Sir Brian to this crucial leadership position,” Mr Luxon says. “Sir Brian is a highly respected New Zealander who has held significant roles across the public and ...
Forestry Minister Todd McClay today announced the establishment of a Forestry Sector Reference Group to drive better outcomes from the Forestry Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) Registry. “We are committed to working with the forestry sector to provide greater transparency and engagement on the forestry ETS registry as we work to ...
New Zealand’s fuel resilience is being strengthened to ensure people and goods keep moving and connected to the world in case of disruptions, Associate Energy Minister Shane Jones says. “Fuel security is a priority for the Coalition Government. We are acutely aware of how important engine fuels are to our ...
The Government will reform New Zealand’s Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism (AML/CFT) system to provide significant regulatory relief for businesses, Associate Justice Minister Nicole McKee says. “Cabinet has approved an AML/CFT reform work programme which will ensure streamlined, workable, and effective regulations for businesses, law enforcement, and ...
Significant reforms are underway in the building and construction portfolio to help enable more affordable homes and a stronger economy, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “If we want to grow the economy, lift incomes, create jobs and build more affordable, quality homes we need a construction sector that ...
Minister Responsible for the GCSB and Minister of Defence Judith Collins will travel to Singapore and Brussels for Singapore International Cyber Week and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) Defence Ministers’ Meeting. New Zealand has been invited to attend the NATO meeting alongside representatives from the European Union and the ...
Toitū ngā pōito o te kupenga a Toitehuatahi! A Government commitment to restoring the health and mauri of the Hauraki Gulf/Tīkapa Moana will enhance the area for generations to come, Minister of Conservation Tama Potaka says. Cabinet recently agreed to pass the Hauraki Gulf/Tīkapa Moana Marine Protection Bill into law, ...
Associate Finance Minister David Seymour says the Government has committed to action on overseas investment, where the country’s policy settings are the worst in the developed world and holding back wage growth. “Cabinet has agreed to the principles for reforming our overseas investment law. At the core of these principles ...
The annual East Asia Summit (EAS) held in Laos this week underscored the critical role that the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) plays in ensuring a peaceful, stable and prosperous Indo-Pacific, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon says. "My first participation in an EAS has been a valuable opportunity to engage ...
Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brooke van Velden says the feedback from the health and safety roadshow will help shape the future of health and safety in New Zealand and grow the economy. “New Zealand’s poorly performing health and safety system could be costing this country billions,” says Ms van ...
The Government has released the independent Advisory Group’s report on the 384 projects which applied to be listed in the Fast-track Approvals Bill, and further detail about the careful management of Ministers’ conflicts of interest, Infrastructure Minister Chris Bishop says. Independent Advisory Group Report The full report has now been ...
The Government Policy Statement (GPS) on electricity clearly sets out the Government’s role in delivering affordable and secure electricity at internationally competitive prices, Energy Minister Simeon Brown says.“New Zealand’s economic growth and prosperity relies on Kiwi households and businesses having access to affordable and secure electricity at internationally competitive prices. ...
The Government has broadly accepted the findings of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care whilst continuing to consider and respond to its recommendations. “It is clear the Crown utterly failed thousands of brave New Zealanders. As a society and as the State we should have done better. ...
The brakes have been put on contractor and consultant spending and growth in the public service workforce, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. “Workforce data released today shows spending on contractors and consultants fell by $274 million, or 13 per cent, across the public sector in the year to June 30. ...
The Crown accounts for the 2023/24 year underscore the need for the Government’s ongoing efforts to restore discipline to public spending, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The Financial Statements of the Government for the year ended 30 June 2024 were released today. They show net core Crown net debt at ...
Climate Change Minister Simon Watts will chair negotiations on carbon markets at this year’s United Nations Climate Change Conference (COP29) alongside Singapore’s Minister for Sustainability and Environment, Grace Fu. “Climate change is a global challenge, and it’s important for countries to be enabled to work together and support each other ...
A new confirmation of payments system in the banking sector will make it safer for Kiwis making bank transactions, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says. “In my open letter to the banks in February, I outlined several of my expectations of the sector, including the introduction of a ...
Associate Health Minister with responsibility for Pharmac David Seymour is pleased to see Pharmac continue to increase availability of medicines for Kiwis with the Government’s largest ever investment in Pharmac. “Pharmac operates independently, but it must work within the budget constraints set by the Government,” says Mr Seymour. “When our ...
The Government has released its long-term vision to strengthen New Zealand’s disaster resilience and emergency management, Emergency Management and Recovery Minister Mark Mitchell announced today. “It’s clear from the North Island Severe Weather Events (NISWE) Inquiry, that our emergency management system was not fit-for-purpose,” Mr Mitchell says. “We’ve seen first-hand ...
Today’s cut in the Official Cash Rate (OCR) to 4.75 per cent is welcome news for families and businesses, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. “Lower interest rates will provide much-needed relief for households and businesses, allowing families to keep more of their hard-earned money and increasing the opportunities for businesses ...
Sport & Recreation Minister Chris Bishop has asked Sport NZ to review and update its Guiding Principles for the Inclusion of Transgender People in Community Sport. “The Guiding Principles, published in 2022, were intended to be a helpful guide for sporting bodies grappling with a tricky issue. They are intended ...
The Coalition Government is restoring confidence to the rural sector by pausing the rollout of freshwater farm plans while changes are made to ensure the system is affordable and more practical for farmers and growers, Associate Environment Minister Andrew Hoggard and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced today. “Freshwater farm plans ...
The latest report from the Ministry for the Environment (MfE) and Stats NZ, Our air 2024, reveals that overall air quality in New Zealand is improving, Environment Minister Penny Simmonds and Statistics Minister Andrew Bayly say. “Air pollution levels have decreased in many parts of the country. New Zealand is ...
Climate Change Minister Simon Watts has announced the appointment of Stuart Horne as New Zealand’s Climate Change Ambassador. “I am pleased to welcome someone of Stuart’s calibre to this important role, given his expertise in foreign policy, trade, and economics, along with strong business connections,” Mr Watts says. “Stuart’s understanding ...
Health Minister Dr Shane Reti and Associate Health Minister Casey Costello have announced a pilot to increase childhood immunisations, by training the Whānau Āwhina Plunket workforce as vaccinators in locations where vaccine coverage is particularly low. The Government is investing up to $1 million for Health New Zealand to partner ...
The Government is looking at strengthening requirements for building professionals, including penalties, to ensure Kiwis have confidence in their biggest asset, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says “The Government is taking decisive action to make building easier and more affordable. If we want to tackle our chronic undersupply of houses ...
The Government is taking further action to tackle the unacceptable wait times facing people trying to sit their driver licence test by temporarily extending the amount of time people can drive on overseas licences from 12 months to 18 months, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “The previous government removed fees for ...
The Government has reaffirmed its commitment to ensuring New Zealand is a safe and secure place to do business with the launch of new cyber security resources, Small Business and Manufacturing Minister Andrew Bayly says. “Cyber security is crucial for businesses, but it’s often discounted for more immediate business concerns. ...
Investment in Apprenticeship Boost will prioritise critical industries and targeted occupations that are essential to addressing New Zealand’s skills shortages and rebuilding the economy, Tertiary Education and Skills Minister Penny Simmonds and Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston say. “By focusing Apprenticeship Boost on first-year apprentices in targeted occupations, ...
Health Minister Dr Shane Reti has announced a funding boost for Palmerston North ED to reduce wait times and improve patient safety and care, as well as new national standards for moving acute patients through hospitals. “Wait times in emergency departments have deteriorated over the past six years and Palmerston ...
Health Minister Dr Shane Reti has announced a funding boost for Palmerston North ED to reduce wait times and improve patient safety and care, as well as new national standards for moving acute patients through hospitals. “Wait times in emergency departments have deteriorated over the past six years and Palmerston ...
Mehemea he pai mō te tangata, mahia! If it’s good for the people, get on with it! A $35 million Government investment will enable the delivery of 100 affordable rental homes in partnership with Waikato-Tainui, Associate Minister of Housing Tama Potaka says. Investment for the partnership, signed and announced today ...
This week’s inaugural Ethnic Xchange Symposium will explore the role that ethnic communities and businesses can play in rebuilding New Zealand’s economy, Ethnic Communities Minister Melissa Lee says. “One of my top priorities as Minister is unlocking the economic potential of New Zealand’s ethnic businesses,” says Ms Lee. “Ethnic communities ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Winston Peters are renewing New Zealand’s calls for restraint and de-escalation, on the first anniversary of the 7 October terrorist attacks on Israel. “New Zealand was horrified by the monstrous actions of Hamas against Israel a year ago today,” Mr Luxon says. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Geoff Bertram, Visiting Scholar, School of History, Philosophy, Political Science and International Relations, Te Herenga Waka — Victoria University of Wellington Getty Images Economists working on macroeconomic policy – things like taxes and spending, interest rates and border controls on flows ...
The government is seeking advice on whether it could – or should – intervene, writes Stewart Sowman-Lund in today’s extract from The Bulletin. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here. ...
A proposed law to protect the Hauraki Gulf/Tīkapa Moana is being amended to allow some commercial fishing in high protection areas, and people aren’t happy about it. The details so far are few, but here’s what we do know.On Sunday, traditionally a day for sleeping, praying and eating roast ...
With little support available and many issues to deal with, a growing number of 501 returnees are supporting each other to overcome deportation and advocate for change. Liam Rātana hears from some of them.Here I am, holding hands and praising God in a circle full of social workers, ex-gang ...
New Zealand was the last place Australian basketball forward Lou Brown expected to play. The winner of two Australian National Basketball League titles spent seven years in America and was settled back in Australia when a buzz around the Tauihi League piqued her interest. “I first heard about the Tauihi league ...
Analysis: Soon, users of some New Zealand government websites will be able to interact with GovGPT. This is a form of artificial intelligence often referred to as a conversational agent, which guides users to information, answers queries, and can even be multi-lingual. GovGPT will first be tested with users interested ...
Every day thousands of video games are made around the world but it took Wētā Workshop 25 years to make its first one, Tales of the Shire.The Lord of the Rings Game will be released in March after several years of development and investment.The Wellington company that led the way ...
Comment: We live in dynamic times, with shifts in government, population, climate, and the need to boost our economic productivity. This can all seem overwhelming, but there are aspects that we can control in all of this. So how can we navigate the complexities of our changing world and what ...
Jesse Mulligan, the Voice of God these past eight years when it comes to the Surrey Hotel writers residency award, will once again announce the winners on his Radio New Zealand Afternoons show, at 1.35pm.The grooviest residency award in New Zealand letters was established in 2016. Mulligan agreed to broadcast ...
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Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Hard on the heels of pledging a crackdown on excessive surcharges, the Albanese government has promised legislation to ban unfair trading practices. The government said this would include specific prohibitions on various “dodgy” practices. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Denis Muller, Senior Research Fellow, Centre for Advancing Journalism, The University of Melbourne George Negus, who has died at the age of 82, belonged to the nomenclatura of Australian television current affairs journalism. He first came to prominence as a member of ...
North Canterbury principals have responded to comments from Associate Education Minister David Seymour suggesting schools will no longer be allowed to hold teacher-only days during the school term. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Angel Zhong, Associate Professor of Finance, RMIT University Galdric PS/Shutterstock In a move that could reshape how Australians pay for everyday purchases, the federal government is preparing to ban businesses from slapping surcharges on debit card transactions. This plan, pending a ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Anne Twomey, Professor Emerita in Constitutional Law, University of Sydney Tarong power stationStanwell Queensland Premier Steven Miles this week declared his party would hold a plebiscite on nuclear power if it returns to office at the forthcoming state election. The ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ben Green, Research Fellow, Centre for Social and Cultural Research, Griffith University Multinational concert promoter Live Nation Entertainment has come under fire, with an ABC Four Corners investigation saying its unprecedented market power is open to abuse. The report follows concerns ...
Nicola Willis' comments on Newstalk ZB this morning were totally over the top. While Wellington City Council might be a sea of red ink, with blood up the walls, backstabbing and skulduggery, this sort of polarised rhetoric is not called for ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Timothy Welch, Senior Lecturer in Urban Planning, University of Auckland, Waipapa Taumata Rau New Zealand’s infrastructure woes are a constant political pain point. From ageing water systems to congested roads and assets increasingly threatened by climate change, the country faces mammoth upgrading ...
The sudden and deep cuts left many of those providing the services scrambling to make ends meet, resulting in job losses and the loss of critical support for many. ...
An increasingly manic diary of Hollywood Avondale’s 24-hour film marathon, as it celebrates its 25th anniversary. I would say that I am a very casual film fan. My Letterboxd aura is incredibly weak, I prefer to watch movies I’ve already seen and I’ve ruined a few dates by falling asleep ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Graeme Smith, Associate professor, Australian National University The Capitol building in the Pacific island nation of Palau. Erika Bisbocci The United States isn’t the only country with a big election on November 5. Palau, a tourism-dependent microstate in the north Pacific, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Bartholomew Stanford, Lecturer in Political Science/Indigenous Politics (First Peoples), Griffith University Since the Voice to Parliament referendum last year, there has been a lack of leadership on Indigenous policy from the Australian government. With this absence, the states and territories now ...
The Auckland magazine held its first restaurant of the year event since 2022. At a church. With an open bar. Duncan Greive watched the show.‘Running a restaurant – sometimes it feels like you’re running a charity for rich people’Every so often a single comment can feel like it ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Peter Draper, Professor, and Executive Director: Institute for International Trade, and Jean Monnet Chair of Trade and Environment, University of Adelaide YULIYAPHOTO/Shutterstock Finally, Australia’s rock lobster industry will be able to export to China again, following a deal struck on the ...
Current debt
86,781,885,888
Oh THAT little thing…
Apparently today low income could be getting 1500 a year from Key in 2017. No promises mind and no articles about Key fumbling around over figures and pluckinh them from thin air
RWNJs always sneer and laugh at the mention of a living wage of about $18 and say why not $30 or more an hour as if suggesting any rise is like an irresponsible child wanting more and knowing no limits.
So now they offer the same thinking for lower tax, same airy fairy playing with needs, hopes and expectations with no attempt to seriously consider or cost it.
ANy RWNJs who employ people are welcome to pay $30/hour. Sadly, I think most of the ones who spout garbage on blogs are themselves employees who have bought into the asprishnull dreem. They think if they say the right things, they’ll get a ride in the Merc.
So Key has promised $1.5 billion in tax cuts
1m households (guess) x 1500
Not promised, dangled like a carrot… So he can later say it was never in stone…
But the amount Key said was 500m
20 secs of reflection and a quick rough calc shows that the cost is THREE times his value!!!!!
Don’t they have a calculator?
Didn’t pass National standards, can’t count and none of them can read “dirty politics”.
Before posting any further hyperbolic debt concern please read and engage with the following real world example. This shows that as long as NZ continues to operate a central bank the national debt remains a non issue.
http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=28918
Thanks for the link.
One point NZ is a very small economy cf to Japan.
The economy in Japan is much more diverse.
The interest rates in Japan are very small – deposits 0% and mortgage under 1%
Who owns our debt?
It seems to me that he who owns the debt controls.
I guess I just don’t feel comfortable paying in the order of 3b a year (currently) in interest.
“The interest rates in Japan are very small – deposits 0% and mortgage under 1%.”
Well since apparently you don’t know, interest rates are effectively set by the central bank. If the RBNZ wants interest rates at or near those levels it can achieve them. Thats the same thing as controlling the official cash rate in NZ. The linked discussion actually explained this point.
“Who owns our debt? It seems to me that he who owns the debt controls.”
The discussion on that link also touched on this. The central bank of Japan is currently reducing the govts debt levels by buying up govt debt while setting the interest rate it wants. Potential debt buyers have a simple choice, lend to the govt at the interest rate controlled by the central bank or sit on their cash and receive no interest. Clearly they control diddly squat.
I was hoping to avoid going through a rather tired discussion of these points when I suggested you engage with that material. Unfortunately the only new area raised (the relative size of the Japenese and NZ economies) elicits no reason to think this would be a problem either.
It remains clear when operating a central bank govt debt remains a non issue based on the points you raised here and this real world example.
I think K DotCom is right. Our PM could be videoed shooting and killing kittens and it wouldn’t make a difference.
The thing that bothers me is that it is probably inevitable that someone on the left will take money (if anyone would offer it) to replicate Slater and Farrar et al’s tactics because it is seen to “work”. The idea that Slater and Farrar or Hooton know that Labour is doing it but have held back releasing proof is laughable. I am just surprised none of them (Slater) have made stuff up.
I dont care who is behaving in the manner revealed in Dirty Politics it threatens all of us and our future generations. It deprives us of genuine democracy and that means we are ultimately left with an illusion of genuine freedom of choice.
There is tremendous effort going in to manipulating us in that regard, Mr Hooton and Mr Farrar make a very good living for just that. Does the left do it? I rarely see Hooton and Farrar criticised by the right but Paganis, Williams are frequently criticised by supporters of parties to the left. What IS apparent from the book is that Farrar and Slater and to an extent Hooton (and he admitted that in the last two days) keep each other appraised of what they are “working ” on and the former have more coordination enabling Farrar to appear more moderate and unbiased to Slater’s rabid character assassination.
New Zealand is a great country. I am lucky enough to travel, and love traveling. As amazing as the rest of the world can be, I always love returning home and traveling again within Aotearoa.
For those who have surrendered to the notion that it’s not worth opposing because “everyone is doing it”, I say is that the world you want to live in, where you give in to what you know is wrong because you have been fooled into thinking it’s a sporting match and forget that when the match ends, YOU have had a good time but are also the only one who lost money on the event…everyone else was paid lots for your pleasure.
It is one thing to say that it’s just a difference in ideology but I don’t mind people disagreeing with my “politics” but base it on fact, evidence and clear thinking.
Wrong. Unless running corporate agendas and looking to disengage people from voting in elections etc, ever became a programme of the left – in which case it wouldn’t be the left. But sure, parties of the left could well be hi-jacked by careerists, and then what you say would probably eventuate.
Its not just to disengage voters Bill. The two track strategy is about presenting your leader with an untouchable nice person image while running despicable attacks against your opponents from other quarters. I xant see why some on the Left would be immune to the tactic if they see it as a game to be won at any cost, and why not, the right dont have a monopoly on that particular frailty.
It takes money and linkages to corporate cronies. It takes more than just the will to do it.
I said inevitable, not instantaneous.
Actually it only takes a collins and a slater at the basic level. The Left once on the treasury benches would have both. No corporate or money realky needed
No it would also require the kinds of well-connected, extra-parliamentary networks Slater, Lusk, et al operate in.
yeah, nah – the despicable attacks are a part and parcel of putting people off. It makes politics petty and (in the mind of prospective voters) a waste of time.
Yes. The politics of hidden agendas, an two track attack politics, is aimed at disempowering the people most likely to support left policies. For the left to adopt such strategies would be counter productive for the left.
For the left, the opposite is required: to engage with, motivate and mobilise the people.
You are talking about what is required whereas i am talking about what some might do. I see little evidence the labour party would say no to an opportunity to beat the others at their own game at some point if offered.
They might try it, but it’d be a fizzer because of the reasons I stated – and it wouldn’t last for longer before it backfired on them. not worth the effort.
Anf THAT was my point in part. They might try it.
Well, what’s your point then? Basically, it’s a non-goer for the left: not practical; would contradict the core values of the left; and would further disconnect the parliamentary left from the flax roots.
That you think being left leaning makes people immune from slater-collins-lusk-esque behaviour I have to disagree. Self interest does not exist only on the right. Ego does not only exist on the right.
Since when has saying or doing things contrary to the “flax roots” meant every left sympathiser or left parliamentary rep and staffer are saints immune to the “game.”?
It’s not just about ego and self-interest though, and this is a very important point. It’s also about the world view and core values. Having left wing politics generally goes with a world view that is more fair and less greedy or focussed on acumulation of power for is own end (I also think that traditional conservative values in NZ are different from Slater and co). The VRWC is run by people with ego and self-interest, but it’s their values and the way they see the world that is the real problem.
If the left wing parties were willing to compromise values for power and achieving govt they would be using the coat tail provisions, and doing electoral deals to ensure they win. That as much as anything tells me that we are still reasonably safe in NZ. On the other hand, there is the history of Labour and neoliberalism, and we still have the ABCs (who prove Bill’s point rather than yours I think), so I think being mindful is important. I don’t see a VLWC as inevitable though.
Yeah nah. Only in part. It is also about discreditting the other people, making them less viable as a ruling power so you will put your support elsewhere. It is not one dimensional.
Tracy, when who holds the reigns of power is determined by who best satisfies competing corporate interest (eg, various industry lobby groups), then you and I, or our support, just do not matter at all.
“Wrong. Unless running corporate agendas and looking to disengage people from voting in elections etc, ever became a programme of the left – in which case it wouldn’t be the left”
No true scotsman fallacy.
No Lanth, it’s not a ‘no true Scotsman fallacy’.
Even within the narrow confines of representative parliamentary politics, the left needs engagement. But where parties become the domain of a professionalised political class, all parties then compete in a ‘value free’ environment and play the same game as each other; a game that does not require (and even fears) widespread engagement.
Yes, it is.
You say “people on the left of politics don’t do x, y and z”. If you’re shown a person who would clearly be agreed by everyone to be on the left of politics that is doing any of x, y or z, then you declare that person is not truly on the left of politics.
That’s the no true scotsman fallacy. Sorry.
Agree.
I sense Bill and Karol are addressing what they think the Left need to do whereas I am fearing for what some on the Left might do, given the chance.
I am addressing what the left are able to do successfully. You are just throwing up smoke and mirrors.
No, I am expressing my misgivings especially when Mallard and his ilk still sit inside Labour.
You are surmising as much as I am. You have no proof of what they are or are not able to do successfully or otherwise in the future than I do.
“The thing that bothers me is that it is probably inevitable that someone on the left will take money (if anyone would offer it) … ” That is, to blog stuff to attack the right
Why bother surmising? Why not just go with:
No, I am expressing my misgivings especially when Mallard and his ilk still sit inside Labour.
Your surmising is just feeding the right wing smoke & mirrors response to Dirty Politics.
There are very good reasons re-a range of policies and practices, for being concerned about the continuing, soft neoliberals within Labour. The right within the parliamentary left, and somewhat disconnected from significant parts of the wider left.
I didnt write my thoughts in a way you think I should? Ok…
My surmising is my concern about future behaviour because I dont believe the right have a monopoly on self interest and ego.
Your belief that no one on the left, in the blogosphere or political party would behave that way, is perfectly valud but doesnt make mine wrong or feeding a right wing meme.
I have not said the Left are doing it to. I have made it clear I believe if they were, slater, faffar or hooton would have published it. My fear is for the future.
That may not have been clear to you in this or other posts. So be it.
I didn’t say no-one on the “left” might try it. I said, if they did, it wouldn’t be very successful, and basically, all it would achieve is to damage the wider left.
Assuming that you mean by ‘Mallard and his ilk’ a professionalised politician – a careerist – then yes, were they to successfully hi-jack the Labour party and use it as a political vehicle for their own narrowly focused personal gain, they’d likely employ the same tactics as we currently see being used by cliques within National. (Attacking people and their reputations in lieu of debating/attacking policy)
But they certainly couldn’t do it successfully as a clique within the Labour Party without undermining, and possibly destroying, the very vehicle they hoped to use.
Okay, lets go with that.
So what you are contending is that left politics could be conducive to corporate agendas and disengaging people from the social democratic process.
And I’m saying those agendas can only make any sense with an absence of any left leaning aspirations.
If someone on the left got into attack style politics, of the type mentioned in Hager’s book, I’d say they were fucking idiots who had no idea of what they were actually doing.
If an entire network was built up by the Labour Party, that emulated what National have been doing, then our current understanding of what we mean by ‘National’ and ‘Labour’ would be obsolete in terms of making sense of any difference between the two. They (Labour) would necessarily have become professionalised and utterly disconnected from their historical political roots on the left.
Exactly.
Are you saying the Labour Party is a party of the Left or the Right?
Are you saying the Labour party has never compromised left leaning policies to accomodate corporates (business) in order to sit on the Treasury benches?
“..then our current understanding of what we mean by ‘National’ and ‘Labour’ would be obsolete in terms of making sense of any difference between the two. They (Labour) would necessarily have become professionalised and utterly disconnected from their historical political roots on the left.. ”
1984 – 1990?
Arguably 1999 to 2008?
Within a social democratic context, the left always accommodates business interests. It’s what parliament is there for; to ensure a favourable environment for business.
However, the left also concerns itself with social policies designed to ameliorate the impacts of business activities in a society that’s overlayed with a market system. And sure, the relative ‘weighting’ of social policy ebbs and flows over time given larger political context and ebbed massively during the years that neo-classical economics has been in the ascendency.
Now, if you want to see a society embedded within a corporatist framework, then dump social policy/concerns altogether, professionalise the political parties, and have citizens as mere spectators to a never ending roll out of policies that only serve to advance corporate interests.
That’s where the trajectory of the practices laid out in Hagers book lead. If you believe ‘a left’ can play any part of a corporatist political/social structure, then your contention that the left can engage in the same political games as current National party cliques stands.
Otherwise (ie, if you hold corporatism to be something wholly embedded within the right) your contention makes no sense.
And if you regard the left as a philosophy that will “support social equality, often in opposition to social hierarchy and social inequality.” then the Labour Party wasn’t practising leftist policies for those two terms. Therefore what you’re contending doesn’t apply.
Had they overtly eschewed the inference that Labour means left?
If Labour during those terms was not seen as representing the left i agree with your last sentence.
It depends who was doing the seeing. I don’t believe it was representing the left.
Actually the only thing I’m contending is that you’re making an argument that amounts to “no true scotsman fallacy”. You might be quite happy to make such an argument and still believe in it – that’s fine. Just be aware that you’re making it.
I think it’s more about how you define “left”. I don’t know that definition of “true Scotsmen” is exactly the same thing.
But some talk about the “left” as being exclusively the parliamentary left” and parties such as Labour, whether or not they continue to follow left wing principles.
And when you look at the wider left, it’s a matter of how you define it’s core values and principles.
Bill talks about corporate interests and disengaging people from the political process.
But you could also talk about unions. It’s feasible to imagine a very strong union movement that colluded with politicians to further their causes. We have seen such things overseas. In the US, the Chicago Democrats are infamous for their corruption and manipulation, and are clearly on the left of their political spectrum.
I don’t see where anyone is arguing that the left is somehow immune to dictatorial politics. That would be an absurd position to take. However, what tends to happen (if history is anything to go by) is that the dictatorial left is characterised by state centric oppression – (eg state ‘communism’) while the right is corporatist/fascist – ie, a more market orientated form of dictatorship. And ‘Dirty Politics’ highlights a trajectory towards the latter scenario.
That person is called Martyn Bradbury.
He takes money to shill for Kim Dotcom.
“The idea that Slater and Farrar or Hooton know that Labour is doing it but have held back releasing proof is laughable. I am just surprised none of them (Slater) have made stuff up.”
Yip, given how much crap they say without proof, and their pavlovian reactions when they have ‘some proof’ of *anything* that has the slightest whiff of being ‘bad’, clearly they don’t have any evidence of wrong-doing in this case.
“The thing that bothers me is that it is probably inevitable that someone on the left will take money (if anyone would offer it) to replicate Slater and Farrar et al’s tactics because it is seen to “work”.”
– I don’t think its quite that simple (or easy), I’m not saying the Left arn’t capable of it but more like how it happened is not easy to replicate
Whaleoils first blog was 2005 but how many years was it before anyone started really taking a look at what he does?
So you’d need to have a lot of patience
Secondly Cameron Slater had no real profile at all when he started so he had no baggage whereas someone like Bomber (probably the lefts most well known blogger) has plenty of baggage
Next you’d need someone with the inside word but especially on both sides of the house
However the nice thing for the left is that the cost isn’t all that much
True that. Just the last vestiges of any democratic integrity. A small cost indeed.
Ah Pukey, methinks you just inadvertently let the cutain open a tad…
I call it as I see it though if someone from the left could do what Slaters done I’d read the blog
you are all for planted-stories/black-propaganda furthering secret/corrupt agendas are you p.r..?
..like that sort of stuff in yr daily reads..?..eh..?
..happy to be a pawn..eh..?
..(oh..!..and traceys’ faux-concerns’ about possible future actions..by unknown people/left-bloggers..?
..i reckon that one deserves a special egg-beater-award..
..and deserves derision for giving that rightwing-spin of ‘they-do-it-too!’ ….the time of day..)
I’m all for making politics interesting, the more interesting it is the more people will take notice of it
Punkish Rogue one wonders why you bother being a botherer!
A left wing “attack dog” would not be able to operate in the same way that Slug Boy and Farrar do. Left wing readers would not accept the filth. They want fact based posts and comments, or at most a bit of opinion, but it can never veer into the personal assassination stuff that is the staple of the right.
Imagine what would happen if, for example, a left blogger wrote the following about a Tory minister:
“She’s been a filthy slut ever since she was at intermediate school, and the tipline tells me she was never a good root anyway…………”
We are organically incapable of doing what they do.
An increasingly undemocratic country, where people are told not to get involved in politics.
“The academics and the scientists and the engineers and the school teachers, all those people who know about things in society, the ones who can talk about it and inform the other people who vote and think and act and sign petitions, lots of those people are scared at the moment, many academics think they are going to get in trouble if the speak out at the moment.”
Public servants have to remain politically neutral and serve the government of the day but they are allowed to engage in politics outside work.
Keep head down
However, one public servant at the event, who wanted to remain anonymous, said he was spotted on television in the background of a previous Nicky Hager talk on Dirty Politics and subsequently told by his bosses to keep his keep his head down and stay out of politics.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/254178/people-off-politics,-nicky-hager-claims
I have a few friends currently or previously (last three years) at Universities and they are very concerned that if they speak out they will lose funding. Without funding a University position is relatively redundant (as opposed to technical institutes where there is more emphasis on teaching).
Section 162 (4) (a) (v) of the Education Amendment Act, New Zealand universities
are to be characterised by an acceptance of “the role of critic and conscience of society.”
Interesting read from 2000 on this very issue Paul at http://www.aqa.ac.nz/sites/all/files/ASQ6%20Critic%20and%20Conscience.pdf
This is truly a huge problem. Steven Joyce’s restructuring of University Councils is another step in stifling the ability of academics to speak out and also to even have a real choice over topics of research because of threats of withdrawing funds. Pressure can be applied directly (threaten University Funding , Slater character assassination picked up by MSM.)
National’s Science Policy http://www.sciencemediacentre.co.nz/2014/09/08/election-2014-smc-science-qa-with-political-parties/
Here is the sorry state in Canada
http://scienceblogs.com/confessions/2013/05/20/the-canadian-war-on-science-a-long-unexaggerated-devastating-chronological-indictment/
Yup. But its done in such a way that to charge the govt with inhibiting the statutory obligation of universities could not succeed
It’s the stealthy corporatisation of the university system – where money is used as a threat, not around the merit of your work, but around your politics and conformance.
The problem is there is no discernible (at least not discernible in the span of a radio sound-bite or news article) line between professional opinion and personal bias when it comes to politics. Anything said, right or wrong, would mislead voters. Academics scientists, teachers etc are all “bought by society” and cannot step out of their role with objectivity. They couldn’t even do it at a personal level if they were magically allowed the social freedom to do so. What they know is relevant only within a certain context. Saying their contributions can only ever be constructive, by misunderstanding where and how they gain their status – by adhering to social expectations that propagate certain “negative” social outcomes – is a common circular fallacy. Theoretically, the only way any of those people could attempt to neutralise their personal bias (known and unknown) and “make the world a better place” would be to leave whatever institution pays them, spend however long it takes to reinvestigate every method they’d been taught to check for political bias, and re-enter the world with their knowledge at street level. Otherwise their contribution should stay within the slow, slow, politically unviable, sound-bite free, systems that try to make sure what they do say is at least factual. Jumping academic barriers purposely designed to maintain an attempt at facts and objectivity will only return bias and subjectivity.
…or to declare their particular bias before each opinion they offer (not at the end or not at all) which won’t happen anytime soon.
That is the difficult problem. Disclaimers aren’t fail-safe in the minds of media consumers if said consumer only wants to believe anything that supports his prejudice. It’s not like we’ll suddenly see a huge shift in news reporting towards week-long peer-reviewed articles on each problematic issue, step by step, for and against, and alternatives, and a matching shift in societal trends.
And no one perpetuates the myth of the independent press more than the press. Taking disinterested to a whole new level 😉
To Tracey and Crocodill sound debate on the biases we attach to our world views,sinking into the essence of the matter at hand without any biases allows the mid of view or reality to spring out.Human nature is open to manipulation .
Personal bias is not the issue – inside or outside of academia.
‘Facts’ and ‘objectivity’ only arise out of a social process. There are plenty of clues to this in both the intellectual world and the world of ordinary action.
As Popper pointed out, for example, it doesn’t matter where hypotheses come from – the imagination, insanity, careful reasoning or ideology. It is the institutionalised method of science (blind peer review, debate, etc.) that produces and grows scientific knowledge. In Popper’s terms the hypotheses are open to test – and that’s what matters.
The idea that each individual scientist must be ‘bias free’ is not only unrealistic but, within scientific discourse, unnecessary. Refelective awareness of one’s biases is always useful, of course, but it’s not what science depends upon.
Similarly, the philosophical maxim that the ad hominem fallacy should be avoided is another clue that individual bias (political or otherwise) doesn’t matter. Wherever the knowledge claim comes from in terms of the personal attributes of the person advancing it (e.g., that they are politically inclined to the left or right) is irrelevant. The claim must be analysed purely on its merits.
In the non-intellectual, non-scientific world the same applies. Democracy does not assume that all participants are unbiased, free from anything other than rational influence, etc.. Instead, it assumes that they are but through everyone having an equal voice in the debate over collective decisions the most viable decisions are likely to be made.
In an interesting way, the scientific ideal is essentially identical to the democratic ideal – irrespective of what individuals believe or are committed to the collective activity of ‘decision making’ (in science that is decisions over reliable and valid knowledge claims, in ordinary society that is decisions over collective destiny) is what we put our trust in.
We don’t put our trust in the lack of bias within certain individuals.
“Wherever the knowledge claim comes from in terms of the personal attributes of the person advancing it (e.g., that they are politically inclined to the left or right) is irrelevant. The claim must be analysed purely on its merits.”
Why then why do we think we need academics or put our trust in their superior knowledge? Why say that if only they could speak freely, it would all be better? In the context of this discussion, if any idea must be fairly measured, the appeal is pointless. Otherwise another circular fallacy appears: every idea is to be measured on merit, but ideas from academics will be understood to be more informed and therefore more respected, than those of a homeless man.
The rule does not recognise the existing state of society – it’s expectation, beliefs, etiquette and culture. News and political misinformation travels too fast for ideals to catch up.
The result of appealing to those with high social status would, taken far enough, remove politics from the general pubic, reject the rule above, voting wouldn’t be necessary and governments would be formed by a private selection of representatives of the military, businessmen, academics and maybe even religious groups. Sounds familiar, no? I wonder if those who put their trust in knowledge know they are advocating a form of feudal communism.
“In the non-intellectual, non-scientific world the same applies. Democracy does not assume that all participants are unbiased, free from anything other than rational influence, etc.. Instead, it assumes that they are but through everyone having an equal voice in the debate over collective decisions the most viable decisions are likely to be made.”
That is a flaw of democracy as it grows inside a capitalist framework. Above you say self reflection is good (and slow!), however asking society to inspect itself is an uphill battle because society is necessarily fast and not an individual. No doubt you’ve heard the various arguments against “privilege”. The above definition of democracy ignores (and by now if it ignores it, it is wilfully ignorant) that people can possess exclusive privileges, that there is inequality in opinion and voice, which ironically has democracy purposely destroying itself.
Instead of ideas, if you had used observations then. ?.
“Why then why do we think we need academics or put our trust in their superior knowledge? Why say that if only they could speak freely, it would all be better? ”
We might be talking a bit at cross purposes. I definitely don’t think we should “put our trust in their superior knowledge”. I do think their knowledge should, however, be made available to put in the mix of the public debates over important issues.
I wasn’t objecting to your caution about how individual scientists can be given too much status when they proclaim something in the media as if they were the font of all that is objective.
Personally, I think we should have swags of scientists, academics involved in the debates we have on political issues. That is the best way to ameliorate the bad effects that might happen if only one or two are involved (and become resident ‘experts’, rolled out to proclaim the ‘truth’ about an issue).
I think the antidote to the ‘status effects’ you are concerned about – and that I agree with – is to hear more about the debates and discussions within the scientific or academic worlds .
One way of undermining the ascribed status that some individuals have is to become more familiar with them and with what they are saying. You soon learn that they aren’t the be-all and end-all of knowledge.
As you say, this ‘status’ problem is endemic to debate and discussion within hierarchical societies of any form. I don’t think the way to counter that problem is to restrict debate to ‘ordinary’ people for a simple reason – that amongst that group, too, a hierarchy (e.g., of ‘personal experience’) will mean that some people have more ‘status’ and their opinions more weight than those of others.
I think a more likely viable way forward is actually to encourage everyone to debate and discuss in multiple forums, places and groups. The real problem is that the media has ‘captured’ or ‘enclosed’ public debate and, in effect, privatised it so that it is owned by relatively few people. Others are excluded.
I’d like to see scientists and academics going to the people directly (local community meetings, writing independent ‘pamphlets’ for circulation, etc.) rather than via the media but I don’t think they should be excluded from appearing in the media.
There used to be debating ‘societies’ in late 18th century and 19th century London, for example. These were all over the city – the East End as much as anywhere. They were places that were a cross between ribald entertainment and political activist meetings where the issues of the day (e.g., abolition of the slave trade) were hotly debated. They also were packed with all sorts of people who heckled, engaged, listened, questioned and mocked (even the ‘experts’ who debated the topic).
We could do worse than resurrect a similar system today because daily discussion of the issues of the day is one thing that seems to be languishing.
The whole point should be to raise the frequency and sophistication of political discussions for everyone’s benefit.
Finally, I definitely don’t ignore ‘privilege’ when I talk about democracy. For me, the movement towards a more democratic world inherently means a movement away from privilege.
QFT
In NZ the railway yards and other such places used to be used as community discussion halls. Discussion covered everything from trades to politics and I believe a hell of a lot of innovation came out of them as well (Railway yards used to have significant manufacturing capacity).
/agreed
I think what we are facing here in NZ is a new form of mercantilism, except the powers are financial organisations and corporations.
We are challenged by global forces, capital moving to the place of highest return, and yes, New Zealand has VERY high returns (relatively unspoiled productive land, relative low population density etc). Rich pickings, yet we have appalling poverty levels.
We are challenged from within, from our sense of empathy toward our neighbours, empathy toward people who are hungrier than us, empathy toward kids who don’t get a chance to live their childhood with freedom. I think we also have empathy with the privileged, who cannot (because of their ‘lucky’ upbringing – from a Rawlsian perspective) even see beyond their own doors/gated community.
We split our time trying to justify our perspective, understand and rebut others that are radically different. ‘Politics’ zaps up energy – as it should. At the moment we are introspective, trying to figure out how to remove unsavoury, undemocratic (and I think criminal) attacks on our freedom of speech (referring to outfall from Hager’s book). But we shouldn’t lose sight of the bigger picture also, and what is happening globally and how our government connects into it all.
I really liked Tim Minchin’s quote:
“Empathy is intuitive, but is also something you can work on intellectually”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoEezZD71sc
I really do think it is a clash of ideology – along empathetic lines. People out for themselves, selfish, degrade their environment for their own selfish comfort for however number of years they are on this planet. If only people would think a little more. Think of consequences of actions. Think of consequence of words. Think of consequences of media/messages.
Meanwhile, as the ‘Left’ (a term which I don’t like either, as it is so polarised and a lazy way to describe very complex ideas and forces that cannot be simply condensed into one word…….equally applies to the term ‘Right’) rationalises, considers and responds to what is happening, the government is leaps and bounds ahead, onto the next project of chipping away at their own agenda, serving their own needs. There is a problem of timing, being on the backfoot.
“That is a flaw of democracy as it grows inside a capitalist framework”
Contrary to that, I think democracy is flagging inside the neo-liberal framework.
Good comment
BTW the elite usually have a good amount of empathy and solidarity – with those within their own narrow class.
I think the neo-liberal framework was designed to do precisely that. We’d tried Laissez Faire before and we’d ended up with huge amounts of poverty, the rich being very rich and powerful and WW1, The Great Depression and WW2.
I’m pretty sure that some didn’t forget the lessons. That people in poverty work harder, for less and don’t question the owners as much as when they’re reasonably well off.
They seem to have forgotten, however, the “WW1, The Great Depression and WW2” bit. These things tend to happen when you run countries ragged. Another anti-democratic aspect that really scares me is the installation of puppet leaders whose main purpose is to do their corporate masters’ bidding. Put the two together and you end up with a war being managed by a haircut pretending to be a leader, to borrow a phrase from Woody Allen.
The military-industrial complex arose out of WW2 so I doubt if they’ve forgotten those billions of income.
I’m pretty sure we have that now.
Also, Wall St encouraged the USA to enter the war, against the wishes of a highly pacifist American public, in order to safeguard millions in loans they had made to the British and the French.
Popper ignores a recentish study which showed that even when researchers were confronted by their bias, relating to omitting negative findings, the majority still believed they were right.
Peer review is also subject to bias and patch protection but having systems and processes can impact but by no means fullproof.
I cant find the paper but it was out of oxford or cambridge and the author has a chinese surname
“Popper ignores a recentish study which showed that even when researchers were confronted by their bias, relating to omitting negative findings, the majority still believed they were right.”
I don’t see that this finding affects my (and Popper’s) argument.
There’s actually been plenty of work (e.g., from discourse analysts who have focused on the discourses of natural and physical scientists as they discuss issues at conferences) that shows that individual scientists can be very ‘biased’ and will hold to beliefs for doubtful reasons (personal pride, reputation, sense of superiority, etc.).
My point is that it is the institutions of science that produce whatever degree of reliability or validity there may be in scientific knowledge.
And, I agree, those institutions are ‘flawed’ in terms of personal bias (and other very human influences) over what gets accepted or opposed. But this is my point: Whatever reliability and validity there is in scientific knowledge or in political, democratic decision making does not depend on individuals who have managed to rid themselves of bias.
How we, collectively, come to generate adaptive knowledge and decisions (in science or politics) is a slowly evolving process in which there’s a bit of an ‘arms race’ between efforts to eliminate partial and biased decisions (that may ultimately be maladaptive) and the efforts of partial and biased interests to get their way in particular instances.
There’s no nirvana when it comes to ‘rational’, unbiased decision making – but hopefully we keep trying to make it work more and more for our collective interests rather than partial interests.
I don’t think discouraging people – whether scientists or ‘ordinary people’ – from entering political discussions is the way to improve our collective decision making. That’s what I thought, perhaps mistakenly, that crocodill was arguing – that scientists should be corralled away from those discussions.
“Popper ignores a recentish study which showed ”
If you are talking about Karl Popper, who is the only well known, at least to me,
academic of that name it isn’t really surprising that he ignores recent studies.
After all he died 20 years ago.
If it isn’t Karl who is it. I’d be interested in another one.
I have been assuming that popper is populuxe, i feel very foolish if that is wrong. ?..
Blush
I meant Popper the philosopher of science, proponent of the ‘Open Society’ and ‘best mates’ with right wing, libertarian economist, Hayek.
But it doesn’t matter. Your point was a good one.
Ah, that does make a difference.
By the way, please don’t think that I am picking on you specifically with quibbles. It is just that I tend to read most of your posts as they are usually interesting. If I read them all I am likely to spot the occasional thing that looks a bit odd.
I dont feel picked on by you Alwyn.
I know Populuxe is an academic and that birthed my confusion. I am interested in the statutory requirement for our universities to be society’s conscience and feel that has been eroded in a significant way.
@ tracey..
“..Popper ignores a recentish study which showed that even when researchers were confronted by their bias, relating to omitting negative findings, the majority still believed they were right…”
bloody hell..!..
..physician heal thyself..!..eh..?
Mirror! Mirror required at table 4.
Yes it is the equal voice that matters and which is being eroded
You really dislike people who actually have an education don’t you?
In the 90s, Dr Peter Ramankutty was fired from the Auckland University Maths Department, on the basis that he was a useless lecturer. He took the university to court, saying he was being fired for criticising teaching policy, which was basically to make courses easy and pass everyone. Several of his colleagues gave evidence that he was mistaken. My opinion is that he was not, and I was appalled at how readily academics took the side of the university.
I think most of those who were prepared to be part of society’s conscience are long gone or have gone to sleep.
laugh out loud moment on tvone breakfast..
..christie..all po-faced/concerned..
..saying ‘bloggers’ don’t have journalists’ ‘ethics’…
.(and i think he was trying to be serious..(!)..)
..whereas if there is one thing ‘dirty politics’..has revealed..
..it is how so many of our churnalists are so easily ‘bought’..
..are so craven..
I think Christie is a definite nomination for worst journalist in NZ.
I’m not counting Glucina as she is just a gossip merchant.
who (Glucina) today has used Max Key (will Key be outraged ?)
How is Glucina still employed?
It has long amazed me how many people get paid to gossip…
sadly, if it were any other way, Hager could have retired years ago.
Geez paul I dunno theres so much competition you’d have to have various categories to give them all due credit.
Its not so much ‘bought’ but that they are already owned by virtue of where they are and who they work for.
Rawdon and the tvnz autocrew being one such example, look at how Shane got cleaned out for his lack of judgement over a meeting compared to hoskings treatment for admitted bias.
And how they cloned pippa to make it easier to replace her without mucking up their imbalance on the show
“..Its not so much ‘bought’ but that they are already owned by virtue of where they are and who they work for..”
..+ 1..
Is’t it time nats and labour got down off there high horses and debated with the minor parties .Join the MMP age.
agree… it’s archaic…
Greens have to debate against a guy who isn’t yet in parliament and another guy whose only MP got convicted of Election Fraud and had to leave Parliament.
There have been quite a few ‘all in debates’ which have been pretty limited in value. Too many heads fighting for a platform. I personally find the head to head between the two main party’s more effective way of debating their difference on policy. The only problem is National have been very poor on providing policy and pluck shit out of thin air. You only have to look at their proposed tax cut in 3 years.
+1+1+1 skinny
Surely if a boss tell an employee what they can do in their free time that is harassment and that boss needs to be told that.
We all need to get a bit braver. So that it gets to be a habit. So that we can build our democracy on it. Our rights were not given to us like Xmas pressies or won like a raffle….our rights were fought for, long hard battles, side by side…our rights were wrested from the hands of the powerful and rich. Dirty corrupt hands that have their corporate fingerprints all over our country right now.
If Scotland can vote for freedom, to paddle their own canoe, then we can too!
If it’s that bad, I would recommend not telling your boss you aren’t following his/her every whim outside of work hours. Unless you want to lose your job, that is. There is fighting back openly = high losses against more powerful enemy, and there is fighting back covertly = guaranteed win against more powerful enemy.
And your suggestion for the form his covert fight should take is…?
+1
the level of wrong doing against themselves that a citizenry accepts will coincidentally match the level of oppression that they find themselves living under.
Julia Gillard up before the Royal Commission into Unions today.
http://www.michaelsmithnews.com
Will be fascinating to see the evidence unfold in this one.
Speaking of unions…
New York cleaners get fair pay 70% union membership in the same hotel corporates as London, where onl 2 – 4% of workers are union members.
It is pretty difficult to compare wages between countries without introducing logical absurdities.
For example I suppose we could argue that people in New Zealand are grossly overtaxed when compared to the citizens of Brunei. They, after all, pay no income tax at all. Why should we have to pay any? What are Labour and the Greens up to in wanting to lift the burden we have to bear?
If you are looking at the average wage paid to housekeeping staff in Manhattan, and from your comments it appears to be only Manhattan, you probably ought to compare there pay to the average pay in Manhattan. According to one thing I have seen the average pay of people working there is about £80,000/year.
I refer you to
http://www.bls.gov/ro2/qcew9310.htm
Which is why it is important to put our own lines in the sand based on, i hope, a desire to see all kiwis thrive rather than survive. Advances arent made by saying compared to sudan we are safe, compared to india our poor are rich.
It’s really quite amazing that Jackson has got away with treating the Union as a personal bank whereas Craig Thompson guilty of far less (in $ terms anyway) has been convicted.
News today-more charter “schools’ failing.
Johnny come lately (sorry I mean ‘gone lately’) must be gnashing his dentures.
sadly, ‘failing’ means holding ownership of all land and improvements even when a school goes under — even though they are all paid for by taxpayers. such a rort, and I wonder if this is the reason for them even.
The truth is out there…
This seems to have caused some pain for a few contributors to this blog, so in the interests of prolonging that, here is the 100% proof that Key was a director at Merrill Lynch (here he is appointed as alternate director, but on the next document you will see that he is a full director within 6 months)
http://wikisend.com/download/360374/97Key.pdf
And that this was was the main UK Merrill Lynch at the time.
http://wikisend.com/download/100172/1997Accounts.pdf
Just checking that you’re aware that in US firms “director” is a senior management position (but still not at the top exec level); it is not a company director sitting on the board as in NZ parlance?
This is a UK firm, Colonial Viper.
The other interesting thing is that you can see by the accounts linked above that it is certainly the main UK Merrill Lynch company at the time (turnover in the billions) but it’s no longer that. Sounds Phoenix.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_company
BTW I still don’t know why it was sensitive for those commentators on this blog, but if it is indeed that, then maybe somebody else knows why.
And… what?
I have no idea, see my comment above. But it looked like there was some sensitivity around this, so I’ve just put it out there.
But away from the Director issue it would be interesting to follow the accounts and incarnations of this firm because they’re far from being a good corporate citizen.
For a little light relief; An investigation for leftism? (A Leunig cartoon)https://www.facebook.com/175074566012104/photos/a.175075612678666.1073741826.175074566012104/291956154323944/?type=1&theater
Excellent 😀 Always good to start the day with Leunig.
Steve Anvilbanger lolz.
Here’s an easy link for people who want to share in the delight
https://www.facebook.com/175074566012104/photos/a.175075612678666.1073741826.175074566012104/291956154323944/?type=1&theater
My nephew has been working over 70 hours a week driving for a cattle trucking company, exhausted, sometimes only getting 1 day off every 2 weeks. He had no idea when he would be allowed to have time off. He drove a $600k truck. Over a 5 year period he gave up on all of his recreational stuff, selling his trail-bike, he had no time to socialise. He looked exhausted and gained weight.
But recently he gained a job with another trucking company, he has spent weeks in profession driver training and safety training, he will still work hard (50 hours/week) but he knows his roster so he can make plans, he is back jogging and regaining his life. Of course the big difference, the company he is working for is Unionised.
Which is why the Nats and ACT are so against Unions
Yes, apparently yesterday he was following one of his old workmates who was driving his cattle truck quite erratically…he called him on the phone and the guy told him he was falling asleep. Honestly, if you see cattle trucks on the road, be cautious because these drivers are being worked ludicrous hours.
I heard on National Radio last night that the trust of a charter school that is in danger of failing will keep the million dollar plus property bought by the government if it fails.
This is the best link I have found so far but doesn’t refer to this fact. Maybe some one has a better link?
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/254084/charter-school-waste-of-money-union
Sorry don’t know the answer to that question but I was interested to hear a figure of 27k in average costs for a year for students at a Charter school vs 6k a year for those at a state school.
Fambo … it’s true and I posted at 8.1. It has always troubled me deeply, as I saw it as a giant rort, in some cases surely set up deliberately to fail. It’s worth millions.
There were questions asked in the House last year, and I know Parata et al were even more sideways than usual in answering questions.
Be worth using advanced search of Parliament Hansard ? I seem to recall questions from both NZFG and Greens, but could be wrong about that. But I am not wrong about the facts that ownership of assets remains with the failed executive(s).
(And searching, remember to search ‘partnership schools’ as Parata et al were obviously advised to avoid ‘charter schools”, though opposition parties continued using the charter name.)
maybe someone else will remember better than I …
@Fambo .. here’s a start for you … Tracey Martin NZF asking Parata specifics :
Tracey Martin: Is the Minister aware that Te KuraHouruakiWhangaruru, a charter school being set up by the NgāParirauMātauranga Charitable Trust, has received over $1.6 million from the Government, which it has spent on 81 hectares of farmland in Northland, and it now finds itself without enough funds to build the school itself, so it is looking at placing portable accommodation and Portaloos in a paddock, and would she consider this to be a modern learning environment?
Hon HEKIA PARATA: Could the member tell me again what the name of that school is so that I know which one she is talking about?
Mr SPEAKER: Would the member please assist the Minister by just naming that school again?
Tracey Martin: Te KuraHouruakiWhangaruru.
Hon HEKIA PARATA: Thank you, Mr Speaker. No, I am not aware that that is what has occurred, in terms of those details. I would have to check that with the Ministry of Education.
Tracey Martin: Can the Minister confirm that the agreement between herself as the Minister and the sponsor shows that the nearly 100 hectares of farmland, purchased with taxpayers’ money, now belongs to the trust, regardless of whether they build a school or not?
Hon HEKIA PARATA: I do not have that detail to hand. I would be very happy, however, to answer those questions and deal with the member on every one of those details.
Tracey Martin: Should the trust not build the charter school it claims it would, will she, as the Minister, take steps to recover the $1.6 million of taxpayer education money it has received; if not, why not?
Hon HEKIA PARATA: Although I do not have the particular details to hand of that particular contract, what I can tell the member, and assure the House of, is that there are significant performance and accountability requirements of each and every one of the five partnership schools. All of that detail is up on the website and available to anyone who wishes to look at them. In terms of the specific assertions that the member is making about one particular school, I am happy to get the detail of that and work with the member.
Tracey Martin: Is the Minister able to confirm, with her knowledge of the contracts to date, whether there are any clauses inside of any of the partnership school contracts whereby should the schools close, the assets purchased with taxpayer dollars can be claimed back by the State?
Hon HEKIA PARATA: It is my expectation that school properties that are to be disposed of will follow the Public Works Act. That is the usual practice.
Tracey Martin: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am sorry, but I did not ask about the Public Works Act or schools in the disposal. Charter schools and partnership schools do not enter that area. I asked whether—[Interruption]
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Tracey Martin: —there was a clause inside the contracts—
Mr SPEAKER: Order! I am sorry, but I am going to have to ask the member to start again. I am getting so many interruptions from my left-hand side.
Tracey Martin: The question was whether the Minister is able to tell the House whether inside the partnership schools contracts—
Mr SPEAKER: Order! I think that the quickest way forward is to actually allow the member to repeat the question. Thank you.
Tracey Martin: I will try to bring it back. So is the Minister able to tell the House whether, inside the partnership schools contracts she has knowledge of, there is any clause that allows the State—the ministry—to take back the assets purchased by those partnership schools should they close or fold for any reason?
Hon HEKIA PARATA: I do not have that detail to hand, and I am happy to work with the member.
http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/business/qoa/50HansQ_20131205_00000002/2-schools-partnership%E2%80%94assets-and-student-achievement
[Sitting date: 05 December 2013. Volume:695;Page:15286.
Chris Hipkins to Parata, who is so ably enabled to lie by Speaker David Carter:
Chris Hipkins: Is she satisfied that the taxpayer is getting good value for money from the $1.8 million given to He Puna Marama Trust for its establishment costs, given that it has leased facilities at a cost of just $58,000 a year and is asking the existing State schools in the area to deliver teaching on its behalf?
Hon HEKIA PARATA: Different choices are made between leasing, owning, and servicing over the life of a property. As I have said, these schools are contracted for the term of their contract to deliver educational outcomes. They are free to make those choices but they must deliver the educational outcomes expected of them.
Chris Hipkins: If a partnership school were to close before the end of its contract, is there any provision in those contracts for the Crown to recover any of the establishment costs that the school has been funded for; if not, why not?
Hon HEKIA PARATA: As I have answered in response to that question in the House before, we will use the usual commercial instruments available to us to recover costs invested by the Government.
Chris Hipkins: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. That was actually a very specific question as to whether there was any provision in the contract allowing the Government to recoup money if a school closed before the end of its contract. She has not actually answered that question.
Mr SPEAKER: No, I think that on this occasion the Minister has. She said they would use the normal provisions under the contract.
Chris Hipkins: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. She talked about the normal provisions under the contract, but she has not actually indicated what they are.
Mr SPEAKER: Would the member resume his seat. I have accepted that the question has been addressed. The member has further supplementary questions. That is the way it works.
Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. With the greatest respect, one has to understand what “usual commercial instruments” might be. That member is asking the question as to whether that commercial instrument is in existence and is a term of the original arrangement. He is not asking what they might do in its absence. That is a subtle difference, but it is very important.
Mr SPEAKER: I think that the member is raising a point that gives a very good lead to the member to ask his next supplementary question.
Chris Hipkins: Are you going to give me an extra supplementary question, Mr Speaker?
Mr SPEAKER: No I am not at this stage.
http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/business/qoa/50HansQ_20140212_00000009/9-schools-partnership%E2%80%94funding-and-contract-arrangements
Sitting date: 12 February 2014. Volume:696;Page:15838
Fambo .. I searched under Order Paper and Questions, using ‘partnership schools”. Many more links there if you have time.
NB These answers refer to the Whangaruru school
Hi Yeshe – thanks for your info! Pretty outrageous that they get to keep the property. My immediate first impression would be that the Education Department is being pressured to push through Charter Schools and so is at the very least is being slack in the way it forms contracts with Charter Schools leading to this, and, Charter Schools are being given every help possible to survive by the government which wants the model to become the norm. I’d say the schools are simply taking the opportunity to benefit from everything they are being offered. A bit like sheep and beef farmers in Canterbury selling their farms to dairy after irrigation is introduced to an area, making a huge profit and then looking to buy a new farm in areas like the Wairarapa (which I know is happening). A lot of people are making big bucks out of this government’s policies one way or another.
Personally, I think it’s criminal if they are permitted to keep ownership of the land. And when you read through what I posted, it seems the Whangaruru School spent so much on the land, it had no funds remaining to offer the contracted services and were seeking more help via local schools and Ed Dept. But hands-over-ears Hekia and Key said nothing to see or hear .. let’s move on.
If you want more info, maybe write to Tracey Martin via NZF or Chris Hipkins Labour. Good points prior to election.
There are just so many questions to ask of this bloody awful government .. hard to know where it all ends. Key disables any debate; Carter enables perversion and aversion of facts in the House. Sigh …
i am actually a bit of a fanboy of tracey martins’..
..having seen most questiontimes –
-i can confirm she has proved her worth to the democratic process..
..martin is value added..
..and if there is any talk of succession within nz first..
..i can’ t see how you could look past martin..
..and if between her and ron mark..?
..no contest..martin all the way..
..martin is still a fresh/new face to most..
..mark is a re-tread..
..and i think that most would feel they have already seen more than enough of his particular brand of posturing..
agree phillip .. she is clear and extremely capable in the House. I like her very much.
It states in your link that they want to keep the farm.
If you consider that the Charter Schools initiative was not fundamentally about improving learning outcomes for our children – then it is a success.
A dismantling of our public education system is well underway, and private enterprise makes money. Exactly the result from US schemes, and seemingly the end game for those involved here as well.
+100 Molly
Charter Schools are not about quality education or egalitarianism….they are fundamentally about American business making money out of privatising education and controlling a right wing values agenda …this is the end game
…and it is being promoted and lobbied for in New Zealand by a private PR company very much aligned to ACT.
Charter Schools have not worked in the USA….and are very controversial in the USA….but this does not stop Catherine Isaacs , who has no academic expertise or research qualifications in Education
If we want world leading quality education we would be better off following Finland and their highly trained teacher educator State run model….this means money into our State education system …and especially money into special needs education within the State sector
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/
http://www.amazon.com/Finnish-Lessons-Educational-Change-Finland/dp/0807752576?tag=viglink20242-20
They were never mentioned even once as policy prior to the last election. It was a Banks Key secret.
The full ugliness only became known in the so-called Nats and Act agreement after the election.
Epsom, you were conned, and subsequently they conned us all. Please can you do better this time? Otherwise we have at risk the OIA and RMA and who knows what other secrets ?
I think it has proved 100% Nats extreme right wing agenda disguised as Act policy.
Charter schools have always been part of the ACT policy. I attended a presentation with Heather Roy and Roger Douglas at MacLeans college a few years ago, and both a voucher system and charter schools were mentioned.
Way back when my family first started home education, I read everything about it that I could lay my hands on – including use of the charter schools programmes in the US by home educators there.
Despite the personal benefit that the home education community could get by supporting charter schools, – from that immersion it literature at the time, it was apparent to me that the end result was a dismantling of public education, a reduced education delivery to those already in reduced circumstances, and a completely fraudulent means of using public monies to line private purses.
Been vocal in my opposition whenever the opportunity arises ever since.
(And had no evidence to the contrary over the intervening years to change my view)
Molly exclusively Brethren your easily lead by cults Acts take all attitude!
Don’t let facts get in the way!
Of Jamie Whytes condoning incestuous relationships is obviously a dog whistle to the Brethren!
What?!?
The presentation was not an ACT meeting, it was an education forum where both ACT party members were present.
I don’t know what the rest of your comment is about, but I’m thinking you mistakenly assume I am an ACT and charter school supporter.
I am neither.
Have to post this here because it is important and needs wide circulation:
‘Perceptions Of Corruption Damaging To New Zealand’s International Reputation’
By Selwyn Manning / September 9, 2014
“The cache of evidential material underlying claims that corruption exists at the heart of New Zealand’s Government suggests the scope of the Prime Minister’s initiated inquiry is too narrow – Especially as New Zealand’s international reputation must now be considered….
– See more at: http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/09/09/perceptions-of-corruption-damaging-to-new-zealands-international-reputation/#sthash.gUhpMKc3.dpuf
Of course it’s damaging, the perception of this country is moving from Norway to Louisiana. We’re about 90% of the way there but the perception elsewhere is we’re only about 15% of the way there.
@ Rich
Snap. A similar thought came to me yesterday. That we are developing into a backward, red necked, ignorant, laissez faire country on a par with the southern part of the United States.
I was actually thinking of the contrast within the USA of progressive approach and having high educational standards including the humanities which seems the case in some of the eastern states. Which compare favourably to most of the south. They seem to be bogged down with a backward mentality, corrupt, almost totalitarian, with racism still prevalent, with fundalmentalist, and individualistic tendencies, their attitudes characterised as authoritarian and punitive.
Down here in the lower South Pacific both Australia and NZ seem to be going backward towards an unattractive, self-serving good ol ‘boys mentality. Someone here recently referred to how blue the regions were which was noticeable in the clubs, the farm organisations and their narrow interests, don’t lead to progressive policies or attitudes.
The dairy farming sector has gained ascendancy over the rest of NZ with huge trade concessions sweeping away tariffs that enabled our small enterprises to operate and serve the locals with local labour and materials. Now there are few jobs, instead of the range to suit everybody’s abilities, and the dairy farm exports which have become the majority of our exports and earnings, are being hocked off to overseas interests. How mad is that?
The country is being hollowed out, and the politicians have worked with the dairy farming community to diminish or sell off the framework of our country and business environment, our government and its assets, from under us. Overseas it has been known for thieves to demolish a house for its bricks while the owners were away on holiday. We have been here during this time of our country and birthright being demolished, but the stealthy nature of the theft has confused us.
I don’t see improvement likely, but if Labour gets in there may be a break for a cup of tea when some honest and meaningful talking and thinking about directions, methods, innovation, our future options, and new approaches as pilots, could happen. Really only Scandinavia seems to offer a bright spot in political evolution.
Yes, I couldn’t agree more.
And good post, it’s refreshing not to have to read ‘won’ for ‘one’ or ‘role’ for ‘roll’ and ‘your’ for ‘you’re’. Far too many of those mistakes on this blog.
@ Rich 4.05
Thanks. Don’t be too hard on the typos, when you’re handling big, hard ideas with passion, sometimes the spelling gets secondary to the exposition. I admit one that annoys me is loose for lose.
I don’t mind the spelling mistakes but it’s not spelling here. For ‘one’ and ‘won’ they sound pretty similar but you’d never substitute won for the other in a normal sentence I figure. 🙂
Charter schools news items
http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/charter-school-plagued-problems-start-6076300
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/254084/charter-school-waste-of-money-union
On 17 July 2014 193 of my countrymen and women died a horrific death when their plane MH17 was shot down. That makes this personal for me.
Today the first preliminary report was published. The wreckage showed that it had been penetrated by many high speed “objects”.
It also stated that it would take at least another year to determine what those objects where. In the picture it sows that the objects where all of a similar size and showed signs of both incoming and outgoing projectiles especially around the cockpit area.
Russian radar evidence showed that it had been followed by a UK-25 yet which has inboard machine guns. There is witness evidence of a Ukrainian jet following the plane. I think they have a little problem stating the obvious in the current climate.
The obvious being that a Ukrainian fighter jet shot down flight MH17
The corporate fiction du jour is after all that Putin is the new madman we have to destroy before he bombs Europe back to the stone age.
+100 travellerev…”Russian radar evidence showed that it had been followed by a UK-25 yet which has inboard machine guns. There is witness evidence of a Ukrainian jet following the plane”….
It was a great tragedy!
. ..We all know who is supporting the Ukrainians….and the USA has been very quiet on evidence for blaming the Russians….lets hope the TRUTH comes out!
You wrote:
I know what I want. I want an open and transparent investigation into what happened and I want my country Holland to take the lead with an international team including Russian specialists
So best you read the Dutch Safety Board preliminary report on the MH17 crash.
http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/701/b3923acad0ceprem-rapport-mh-17-en-interactief.pdf
Also, the twitter account of a Moscow based journalist has details of the report.
https://twitter.com/crusoes
edit: the Dutch Safety Board page
http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzoek/2049/investigation-crash-mh17-17-july-2014
Bullshit, Ev. Nothing of what you claim is actually in the preliminary report, which makes findings entirely in line with the likelihood that it was taken out by a surface to air missile. Obviously, you haven’t got a clue as to how such missiles work, which is to explode near the target, peppering it with shrapnel, but out of respect for your countrymen, why don’t you educate yourself by at least reading the report before posting further rubbish.
Still, makes a change from your usual mad witterings about 9/11. 13 years on and we’re still waiting for you to provide any evidence for that paranoid obsession.
Totsiens,
TRP
ps, a good summary of what the report actually says here: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/09/us-ukraine-crisis-mh17-investigation-idUSKBN0H40LM20140909
I believe this article as to who shot down the plane:
‘Dutch Safety Board (DSB) Report: Malaysian MH17 was Brought Down by “A Large Number of High Energy Objects”, Contradicts US Claims that it Was Shot Down by a “Russian Missile”’
http://www.globalresearch.ca/dutch-safety-board-report-dsb-malaysian-mh17-was-brought-down-by-a-large-number-of-high-energy-objects-contradicts-us-claims-that-it-was-shot-down-by-a-russian-missile/5400526
…now shoot that down!
Er… as TRP has already said, most surface-to-air or air-to-air missiles don’t actually hit their targets. They’re designed to detonate in close proximity, generating shrapnel, which is quite properly described as “A Large Number of High Energy Objects”.
Surface to air missiles however do not cause outward holes of uniform size. Or show up as jets on radar.
Actually, they probably do.
Might look like a jet on radar if you didn’t notice the massively high rate of climb.
Would a jet have a transponder or other identifier. I’m sure jets do.
The trajectory and size of the munitions which penetrated the fuselage of the plane will be critical to understand.
Entirely consistent with the damage wrought by a continuous-rod warhead.
All ground to air missiles that I am aware of are airburst missiles. They kill by acting more like a claymore mine than from the explosion by effectively discharging objects and casing shrapnel in front of the missile when it has a close approach. Think of a rocket propelled shotgun
“A Large Number of High Energy Objects” sounds like a SAM to me.
That would be Tot Ziens Ya idjit.
And for those interested in learning about the events read my post on it and follow the links to make up your own minds.
Also Chooky’s link is well worth reading.
well I am keeping an open mind on it
…as a non technical person i ask who had the MOTIVE to escalate the situation into a crisis? ( I dont think it was the Russians)
…because the downing of that plane was clearly deliberate ….and the plane by accounts was directed to that particular flight route, which wasn’t the normal flight route
re who had ‘motive’..?
..some facts to consider..
..the korean war was started using a ‘false-flag’..
..the vietnam war also..
..iraq was invaded based on a bunch of proven lies..
..libya thru a concentrated black-propaganda deluge..
..so there is a track-record..of things not being quite what they seem at first glance..
..and also..as this is a major international flash-point..
..the americans wd have had more surveillance going than you can point a stick at..
..surveillance that most definitely wd have picked up/tracked a missile strike on a passenger airplane..
..so why haven’t they released that definitive-evidence..?
..i am sure they cd also answer the questions raised by witness accounts of (ukrainian?) jet(s?) tracking/near the downed-plane..
..this one does have a cover-up odour..
..especially because of the americans not doing what they are able to do..
..to prove the case one way or the other..
..so..who is advantaged by hiding the truth..?
..ya hafta ask..
Oh, and the out of respect for the victims you shall not ask questions does not work anymore.
And for those who still think that 9/11 was done by 19 boozing, coke snorting, swearing and fornicating Muslim terrorists here is a a question. Does this look like an apple to you?
You’ve got that wrong; the point is usually put as:
‘out of respect for victims, idiots shouldn’t put up bullshit conspiracy theories.’
I should have worded that more carefully: Out of respect for he victims it is imperative we keep an open mind and allow all information to come to the fore and base our opinion on that.
You on the other hand don’t want to inform yourself nor do you want others to do that and hence the reprehensible smear of Conspiracy nut. Must be getting quite desperate out there in troll headquarters.
And by the way thanks for trolling me. It increases the hits on my blog. Terrible how some people can’t help themselves and want to read up on shit themselves rather than being told by assholes like you.
Have a nice day.
I’m here to help, Ev 😉 And lord knows you need it more than most.
@ travellerev…+100…victims like questions to be asked ….and the apple analogy is a good one!
ev
you are a disgrace. There is a behavioural bias called”Negativity Effect” bias which seems to sum your comments up almost all the time. If you can blame bad things on people you don’t like by creating fanciful, unfounded theories, then step right up!
You may not have seen video of a fuselage panel from the RH of the fuselage near the cockpit which showed numerous odd shaped shrapnel holes of various sizes and shapes all perforating inwards. This piece of wreckage was originally removed by the militia but the retuned to accident investigators by a villager. You would not have seen this on Putin TV (RT) but it was covered in many other media outlets.
What you are suggesting is that country(wo)men of yours in senior investigative roles are corrupt – a charge I have never seen levelled at senior Dutch governmental employees who I would struggle to think have any propensity to any sort of corruption at all. But feel free to let your mental illness slander both the victims and the many investigators from numerous countries who all appear to you to be part of Don Rumsfelds master plan to do whatever it is your tinfoil hat is protecting you from.
Umm… No I didn’t say they where corrupt. I say that their report states they need an additional year to investigate the events. In fact I would go as far as to say that the Dutch safety authorities present a problem for the Dutch Government, and that of the Ukraine, Belgium and Australia who all signed a secrecy pact relating to the attack.
The Dutch safety Authorities state that the only thing certain is that a violent outside event took place which caused the plane to explode and crash.
To assume that it must have been a SAM is something the whole world is doing but not this group.
So for NATO and the entire Western Corporate Media to blame Putin and to spend billions of $ to stage military exercises while punishing Russia with economic sanctions is premature to say the least and you have to ask yourself why that is.
What we don know is that Victoria Nuland in a phone conversation said that since the US spend $ 5 billion to destabilize Ukraine in order to get someone in power who would be their puppet Europe could fuck themselves.
What we do know is that a Spanish air traffic controller in Ukraine started tweeting as soon as it happened that it was a Kiev operation.
What we do know is that there are witnesses on the ground and Russian military radar and satellite imagery proving that there was a Ukrainian fighter jet following flight MH17 at a distance of 3-5 KM capable of shooting a plane down at a distance of 12 km.
What we do know is that flight MH17 was redirected to fly over the Donetsk region at 33.000 feet rather than the normal 35.000 feet. The jet in question can fly up to about 33.000 feet.
What we don know is that a German aviation specialist as well as some of the Dutch investigators analyzed the photo material and came to the conclusion that the holes and the kind of damage was consistent with the use of 20-30 mm ammunition used by some of the Kiev jets.
What we do know is that the NATO pursues a strategy of encircling China and Russia and that the previous elected government voted to sign an economic pact with Russia rather than Europe just before President Viktor Yanukovych was ousted by paid for by the west pro European rioters.
Hmmm….
Every one of your links go through to the same website …hmmmmmmmmm
Globalresearch.ca (also under the domain name globalresearch.org) is the website of the Montreal-based non-profit The Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG) founded by Michel Chossudovsky.
While many of Globalresearch’s articles discuss legitimate humanitarian or environmental concerns, the site has a strong undercurrent of reality warping throughout its pages, especially in relation to taking its news from sources such as Russia Today. Its view of science, the economy and geopolitics seems to be broadly conspiracist.
Whenever someone makes a remarkable claim and cites Globalresearch, they are almost certainly wrong.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch.ca
All these articles appeared elsewhere first. Be my guest to find them. Sock puppet? Really!
I got this off the Jane’s Defence website this morning:
” Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 broke up in mid-air after the forward section of its fuselage and cockpit were “punctured by high-energy objects”, the preliminary report from the Dutch Safety Board states.
Overall, the report, published on 9 September, is very restrained in its findings but nevertheless essentially rules out any other cause for the crash beyond shrapnel from a missile strike.
Although the board notes it has so far been unable to recover any of the wreckage for forensic examination, it states that: “The pattern of damage observed in the forward fuselage and cockpit section of the aircraft was consistent with the damage that would be expected from a large number of high-energy objects that penetrated the aircraft from the outside.”
The report dismisses that the aircraft could have suffered a mechanical failure, saying that “no indications of any technical or operational issues were found with the aircraft or crew”.
Neither the cockpit voice recorder nor the flight data recorder indicated there was anything abnormal with the flight before both abruptly stopped recording at 13.20.03 hrs on 17 July. MH17 was in contact with air traffic control immediately before its breakup and gave no suggestion of any flight issues. The last transmission began at 12.19.56 hrs, only 7 seconds before both recorders stopped operating.
Air traffic radar data contained within the report tracks only three other aircraft in the vicinity of MH17 at the time of the shoot-down.
ANALYSIS
Overall the report adds little to what was already understood about the crash of MH17 over east Ukraine. However, while the report’s preliminary findings don’t assign blame or attribute the origins of the apparent shrapnel damage, they are still significant in that they form the first official report into the fate of MH17.
The board hopes that its full report will be able to forensically examine the crash wreckage, and although this may not occur for some time it may be able to conclusively determine the weapon system the shrapnel came from.
Overall the report does nothing to dispel the theory that MH17 was downed by a surface-to-air missile system, such as the Buk (SA-11 ‘Gadfly’), while effectively debunking any other option.
The radar tracking contained within the report is particularly compelling. That the three aircraft identified in the vicinity of MH17 are civilian airliners appears to comprehensively rule out the possibility of an air-to-air shoot-down of MH17. This comes despite Russia going to some lengths to claim a Ukrainian Sukhoi Su-25 ‘Frogfoot’ ground attack aircraft was responsible.
Moreover, the shrapnel damage inflicted on the front of MH17’s fuselage appears consistent with the high-explosive fragmentation warhead that arms the Buk’s 9M38/9M38M1 missile.”
SU-25 with it’s 2x 30mm cannons which pack a might punch as its design to attack ground targets and sustain burst from its cannons will cause the jet to stall. It can carry Infa- Red missiles as well but these IR missiles are not full spectrum ones which means it has to attack from behind and are only design to attack helicopters and other ground attack aircraft such as the A-10 etc. SU-25’s are not radar equip either so the pilot would have to do a Ground Control Interception (GCI). From what photo’s I have seen so far from open and close sources point towards a SAM and the only know SAM unit in the area at the was a BUK (SA-11’Gadfly’) which the Rebels had at the time.
Find this from the BBC news website
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29109398
Ah, the good old BBC. The same BBC who announced the never before happened event of a steel framed building twice reinforced to withstand a nuclear blast collapsing due to simple office fires 20 minutes before it happened. That BBC???
🙄
For those of you interested in informing yourself. Here is a page about foreknowledge of the fall of Building 7
The guns in an SU-25 are not machine guns. They are cannons and fire explosive warheads. They tend to penetrate the thin aluminium of a target aircraft and explode inside it. The entry and exit holes are quite different. Depleted uranium is an anti-armour warhead. Most aircraft do not have armour plating. If an Su-25 fired at a commercial jet at 12 km with cannon, it would be incredibly lucky to hit it once, let alone many times.
The holes would have been caused by a proximity fused shrapnel warhead. These are found in missiles, both air to air and ground to air. The information that’s been released so far doesn’t convince me either way. There are still three suspects.
The jet was between 3-5 km away from the plane. Not 12km
🙄
Whatever
You said “there was a Ukrainian fighter jet following flight MH17 at a distance of 3-5 KM capable of shooting a plane down at a distance of 12 km.” The GsH-30-2 cannon has a maximum range of 4 km. It is an air to ground weapon, and the Su-25 lacks the sophisticated sighting mechanism needed for attacking other aircraft in flight. It is optimised for attacking tanks, armoured personnel carriers, and logistical vehicles. I expect that its maximum effective air to air range would be somewhat less than 1 km, and possibly as low as 500m.
If it did fire at the Malaysian jet, it would have been much more likely to be with missiles. The other options are an Ukrainian BUK, a Russian BUK, or a rebel BUK. Given that these are fairly sophisticated systems, the rebels may not have been able to use them effectively. The most likely as far as I’m concerned is an Ukrainian BUK, either by mistake or in a false flag operation. This fits all the evidence I’m aware of. Second is a rebel BUK, followed by the Ukrainian SU-25 with missiles. I’d put the Russians last. The SU-25 has several other drawbacks anyway. It’s a ground attack aircraft, with a loaded ceiling of 16,000 ft. At altitude it’s slower than the Boeing.
http://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2014/07/21/can-the-su-25-intercept-and-shoot-down-a-777/
I prefer waiting for the final report, which may even give the right answer.
My opinion too. So why the economic sanctions and the drive to an all out conflict? From two of the suspects towards the other. The same suspects who have been found in collusion before the plane was shot down. As this telephone conversation shows!
🙄
Dotcom told the Herald he would present “absolutely concrete” evidence that Mr Key knew about him earlier than the Prime Minister had claimed.
But Dotcom is unsure how the public will react, especially following the fallout – or lack of fallout – from Dirty Politics.
“When I read Nicky Hager’s book, I thought, ‘It’s over for John Key’. I didn’t think the New Zealand public would put up with something like that, and I’m really surprised how little impact the book had.
“If he survived that, he could probably survive shooting little kittens in his garden with a shotgun, even if there is picture evidence of that. It’s a mystery. I can’t understand it.
“Will what I present change the election result, or cause serious damage to the Prime Minister? I don’t know. It should.”
So either KDC knows hes got nothing OR hes trying to late to underpromise and over deliver…
or..like me..(and i am sure many others..)
..he is astonished at how national party suporters just don’t seem to care about their leaders being corrupt abusers of power..
..(i’m still grappling with that..what that means/says..)
Yep I think KDC is just being honest. A difficult concept for the MSM to grasp.
+100 BG .. he is being candid and it goes unrecognised.
you quoted the answer
” I didn’t think the New Zealand public would put up with something like that, and I’m really surprised how little impact the book had.”
good grief
Another of the lefts great hopes is a fizzler
your not even making the most basic level of sense
“So either KDC knows hes got nothing OR hes trying to late to underpromise and over deliver…”
that was your question – yes or no?
you answered it yourself in the bits you quoted
stop the stupid games for gods sake
“stop the stupid games for gods sake”
+1. We’ve had days of this on end now. Time to stop feeing the trole?
“Time to stop feeing the trole?”
agreed
I suspect that unfortunately, a good number of National voters are actually too stupid to understand the ramifications of Dirty Politics on our democracy.
and I bet, a good number of Nat politicians likewise …
Or we just realise this is nothing that hasn’t been done before time and time again anyhoo it doesn’t matter as its just another scalp for John Key
is dirty politics…
a) MPs talking to bloggers and the MSM
or
b) the govt using state power and a system of proxies to dishonestly attack people and manipulate the electorate all the while keeping its own hands clean
pick a or b – or better yet read the book and stop making an ass of yourself
Is he hinting at photographic evidence? That would be concrete. A dated correspondence? That would be concrete. If we accept the unofficial dialogue that KDC is a “megalomaniac” when not on camera/radio, it seems unlikely that he would under-promise on evidence to crush his enemies. When you’re looking at someone whose match is the legal power of the USA, surely he isn’t a guy that would mess around to lose.
😀 well said ! and i am not sure yet that the legal power of usa is quite his match !!
So keeping the dream alive huh
Concrete evidence isn’t a dream. That evidence will be presented in a few days. Anyone who thinks that the election has already happened, and that National have already one, they are the ones dreaming.
Concrete evidence isn’t a dream. That evidence will be presented in a few days
– Sure it will, it’ll be (another) game-changer
Anyone who thinks that the election has already happened, and that National have already one, they are the ones dreaming.
– Agreed but Nationals in the better position at the moment
@ Puckish Rogue:
DOTCOM IS TELLING IT EXACTLY AS HE SEES IT.
You right wing nut jobs have abysmal judgement abilities, extremely poor comprehension and limited understanding of human characteristics. A good example of the latter is your profoundly blind adherence to the psychopathology of the current NAct government.
*Yawn* Oh I’m sorry you were saying something
…now back to the cooking sherry
@ Chooky
I’ll knock one back with you any minute – Cheers. What should be done after Sept 20th when we know who or what is the government? What’s the appropriate beverage (libation!)?
greywarbler…it will be champagne progressively for me if the Left coalition wins
…if only Peter Dunne goes out it will be one champagne….and then cups of tea…(.i dont believe it good to drink on depressing news)
…i am hoping to have a happy night sipping champagne watching tv with family
( we will be in touch on line, no doubt, next day…hopefully for cheers and not commiserations )
@ Chooky
Champers eh! I might go for a nice Old Mout cider or a glass of Founders beer. But also I’ll have some nice water, it is not something to take for granted these days. I’ll probably be watching here as I haven’t bothered with switching over to digital yet.
@ Anne 10.20
WOE! (waste of energy)
+1
dnftt.
+1
+100 Anne…lol…you said it!
Yeah no point with PR, he thinks it’s OK to use children as a threat for political purposes. So the best move is to realise he is a low life and ignore what he writes. I do and my days are cleaner – because you can’t wash away that filth.
@ adam
Yes PR is just amusing himself. Every time he ‘participates’ in a thread he is just insulting us and what we are concerned about. I would like to see him banned. He doesn’t add anything useful to my understanding of political matters only gives me a sense of despair. Pukeish Rogue is the appropriate name.
KDC has a much better sense of humour than the PM, that’s for sure.
Unfortunately (for the left) John Key is popular
[lprent: I noticed a few days ago that you appear to have resumed doing a series of these kinds of one-line taunts that I associate with trolling. Certainly you aren’t saying anything in them. Looking back over the comments, the frequency has been increasing markedly over the last week interspersed with odd comments that are worth reading.
You know better. If you feel the urge to do it again, then I suggest that you resist.
Otherwise there is a multiplier on a 4 week ban that I nearly just gave you. I’ll put you on moderation until I am sure you have seen this note. ]
Fair call
Just putting this again as there is still time to get to it if you are in Wellington.
NOTICE!
Coalition for Better Broadcasting –
Wellington protest against Dirty Politics
Wednesday at 12pm noon, Parliament steps, Wellington City
Calling all Wellingtonions who are concerned about the issues raised in the Dirty Politics book and subsequent media. Please show your opposition to this style of politics tomorrow, Wednesday at this family friendly gathering and protest.
Speakers include the CBB Chairperson, Dr Peter Thompson.
More info is available on the Kiwis for Clean Politics Facebook page
Both very interesting poll results.
https://www.horizonpoll.co.nz/page/383/102000-more-registered-electors-likely-to-vote
https://www.horizonpoll.co.nz/page/384/poll-finds-cunliffe-more-impressive-in-debates-so-far
Increased voting could help the Left Adam. The South Aucklanders (and others) who didn’t vote in big numbers were perhaps the 10,000 of votes that National crept in by. But no one is sure what increased numbers will mean.
The Leaders Debate Poll reflects my view of the effective Cunliffe and my dislike for Key.
You are right both links interesting.
A report of the political meeting in Kawakawa from the Northland Age. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/northland-age/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503402&objectid=11321241
National was invited but did not attend so what they might do about the spending on motorways instead of investing in the region, is a question that could not be put.
But perhaps they agree with the point of view of economist from Shamubeel Eaqub
in his recent book. (In Google this has a heading NZ has zombie towns that need to close — economist
http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/nz-has-zombie-towns-need-close-%E2%80%94-economist-md-159124)
Internet-Mana also wasn’t at the meeting.
Focus NZ seems to be a recent formation and looking at business and the economy with a regional and rural viewpoint. They have an active campaign of speaking at meetings.
Kelvin Davis is Labour list MP candidate for Northland’s Tai Tokerau seat
Willow-Jean Prime is candidate for Labour Northland seat
Roads, jobs and wages the big issues for North
11:06 AM Tuesday Sep 9, 2014
Roads, jobs and wages were three of the key issues emerging from a candidates meeting in Kawakawa just two weeks out from the general election.
Recent floods in Kawakawa and Moerewa made the state of Northland roads, and claims of cuts to regional road funding, a hot topic.
A few bold new ideas were floated, such as a proposal for a rapid rail link, but perhaps the most striking aspect of the meeting was the age of the candidates – three of the six would-be Parliamentarians were in their early 30s.
Labour’s Willow-Jean Prime was the youngest at 31, with the Maori Party’s Te Hira Paenga and Anaru Kaipo both 32.
Responding to a question about roads at Thursday night’s meeting, Focus NZ leader Ken Rintoul said his party had a “cunning plan” for a rapid rail link from Hamilton to Kerikeri or Otiria.
Carrying passengers by day and freight by night it had a five-year payback so it made economic sense. It would also take a lot of traffic off Northland roads.
Green candidate David Clendon said his party would axe the $1.8 billion “gold-plated” motorway to Wellsford. Northland would benefit more from a spend of .5 billion to fix the worst bottlenecks on its state highway network.
Mrs Prime [Labour]said the Far North District Council had not received any government funding for sealing metal roads in six years, because money once spent on rural roads was now being diverted to the Government’s Roads of National Significance. Meanwhile many Far Northerners living next to unsealed roads were “literally choking on dust”, she said.
Mr Rintoul said $55 million in road user charges and fuel taxes paid in Northland was being “sucked out” of the region to pay for motorways in the big cities…….
It looks to me like Labour has positioned itself (re pre-election statements about coalition partners) to meet one of Winston Peters’ bottom lines.
but then there’s this … oh dear …
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10481089/Winston-Peters-satisfied-with-inquiries
Remember though that Winstons core voters are the elderly and both National and Winston say they won’t raise the pension age but lets face it I don’t think even Winnie knows where he’ll go (apart from the bar 😉 )
http://tvnz.co.nz/vote-2014-news/economists-criticise-labour-s-capital-gain-tax-sums-6075716
– So the Greens have misgivings and the NZIER confirm it
So.
So its fair to say that the policy is (being polite) a dogs breakfast although kiwiblog suggested an independent commission set up to price the policies put out by political parties and I’d be ok with that
Charter schools, Whanau Ora, casino donations, high country lease transfers. sqautocracy bailouts, welfare for cockies – nah, fuck off.
Known right-wing consultancy NZIER, on behalf of known right-wing supporters Federated Farmers.
🙄
Know your consultancy – NZIER, your lobby group Federated Farmers, your right wing economists the Banks’ boys, Dr Oliver Hartwich and The NZ Initiative et al. And the RWs talk about unions as if they are all-powerful and deathly dangerous. The trouble is that all are affected under that cliche that ‘Power tends to corrupt and absolute power does corrupt absolutely.’
http://nzier.org.nz/people/
http://nzinitiative.org.nz/About+Us/Executive+Director.html
Incidentally NZIER has 20 talking heads. This must be an expensive outfit to run. They should be starting out at about $100,000 p.a. each. Perhaps some are on contract.
Stats, models for hire! Economic procurers. What shape economy do you want?
We guarantee to find the sexiest one just to suit your needs and requirements. We can model it for you, and have it sitting by your side to give comfort in times of stress.
That may well be but when the Greens want Labours policies costed that does lend credence to it does it not?
lol
how much for the pretend-promised tax cuts?
Show me the ten-dollar bill…
and that has what to with it exactly?
it shows your priorities.
It shows how someone choosing (or not) to ask for more information is not a reliable indicator that said information is lacking.
And it highlights just how much of a hollow, slimy partisan hack you are.
PR
How about the Nats policies costed
Now the tax break per household is $1500
With say 1 million households (Guess) that is a cost of 1.5 Billion
But the amount Key said was 500m
20 secs of reflection and a quick rough calc shows that the cost is THREE times his value!!!!!
Don’t they have a calculator?
Another provocative starter, pr?
Its not provocative, its a legimate question in that Labour may well be able to cobble together a coilition and then might be able to put through a tax that simply won’t work and might even cost more then it brings in
@ p.r..
..yr/rightwing claims of ‘too hard!’ are utter bullshit..
..we are the outlier by not having a cgt..
..and we don’t need to reinvent the wheel,,
..there are plenty of models out there to pick the best from..
I disagree. Matching CGT and GST regimes with Australia has huge benefits and harms those who use the distortions to play both countries off against each other.
Second I welcome the Greens extending the debate over the tax changes, I wish we have had a real debate, but early on National line has been to poor scorn on the debate, and nothing has changed.
We need the change that CGT provides, that is to shift investment from growing a housing bubble and growing businesses. When its easier to buy and sell real estate than to build businesses, then having the same rewards is dumb.
As for the notion that economist all agree, laughable. And that we’ve already forgotten how dismal their science is… ..laughable.
Just because a tax isn’t the best perfect neo-liberal policy does not make it dangerous and an error to implement.
Nomination Form for New Zealander of the Year
(Principal Sponsor; Kiwibank)
http://nzawards.org.nz/nominate/nomination-form1/
“Honour the achievements and contributions of an inspirational Kiwi by nominating a New Zealander who has made a significant contribution to our nation and makes us proud of our country and what can be achieved. Their pursuit of excellence may be in areas of – science, business, the arts, cultural or community involvement, sport, education and health – their achievements have positive effects on how we feel about our nation and ourselves. The New Zealander of the Year Award will recognise an individual, who, through his or her achievements, has made an outstanding contribution to the well being of the nation”
I can think of one individual who has been inspirational. His pursuit of excellence has been in the area of strengthening Democracy in our country. He has recently written a book, that has been the fastest selling book in New Zealand’s history, providing evidence of the important message he has provided. He is a quietly spoken, extremely intelligent and articulate man, who has clearly made an outstanding contribution to the well being of the nation.
I am sure that more than one nomination for this outstanding man, will not be a concern to those considering the nominations?
New Zealander of the year:
John Campbell of TV3 for the amazing amount of social good he has achieved by highlighting social injustices,issues and needs through his Campbell live programme.
Do you agree with me here?
A worthy contender
good choice clem….or kdc
This one should go to Hager.
Leaders-debate-key-vs-cunliffe: Tonight, TV3, 8:40 pm.
http://www.3news.co.nz/politics/decision-14-leaders-debate-key-vs-cunliffe-2014090914
The builder of The Standard infrastructure, and who keeps this blog resource going. Along with a group of fervent, ethical, dedicated activists, who together provide a base for those that look for the truth, that is strong enough to handle the truth, The name of Lynn Prentice is the not-so-quiet hero of the decade!
Winston Peters positioning himself a bit more snuggly as kingmaker. Take note voters who want a change of govt, and lefties who think he can be trusted.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10481089/Winston-Peters-satisfied-with-inquiries
Mai Chen said on the National Radio about 2 weeks ago that a Public Enquiry is about the same as a Royal Commission. RC is sort of an old title. Not sure what Key would mean by a “widened enquiry” but again any serious enquiry should have the terms of reference include “any other matters arising.” We will see but after the Election.
My point was that Peters originally positioned himself as champion of democracy, and now is respositioning himself as potential partner of the very people that are undermining democracy. It’s classic Peters and shame on the people it fools.
Best Mai Chen keeps her head downhill after the election.
True that weka, the first thing I thought when I read that was: willing buyer, willing seller.
Weka, I think Winston is battling the Conservative party for the disaffected National vote. I suspect his own polling is showing that the Conservatives are close to or over the 5% barrier, and that National and the Conservatives together can govern without him. Survival mode for him.
A vote for Conservative is a vote for the death penalty. Binding referendums are already being lined up by wealthy people who want parliament out of the process of legislating our country.
Yeah, we don’t want the Conservatives anywhere near parliament. Better those votes go to Winston if they are not going to the left, and ex-National voters need to believe there are no barriers to Winston working with Key.
Yes I really don’t want batsh*t Colin to be seen as one of my “leaders”. (bit of cynicism there). He’s a rich Lombard with not a clue. (Oxymoronically, he admits on TV that he’s made a lot of his money through Foreigners buying NZ land…but like Winston, opposes it.) He’s an insult to bats.
TV3 poll tonight puts them dangerously close to 5%. Best case scenario, they poll just under 5% on election day and waste thousands of right wing votes. Worst case scenario- them and National in coalition running amok for the next three years. It would be so strange if the Dirty Politics scandal gave us the worst government we have had in a couple of decades because National voters went to the Conservative party.
Having the Conservatives in Parliament worries me more than having National back for a 3rd term.
A few months ago I read a book about those students back in the 1960’s that bussed down into Mississippi to sign black people up to vote.
It seems to me that Colin Craig, Garth McVicar and Christine Rankin (southern belle material if I do say so myself) want to turn New Zealand into a replica of Mississippi during the Jim Crow era.
Jan Logie/Green Party on raising benefit levels above poverty line.
Sadly can’t commit to doing that straight away but we have committed to raising parents receiving income support & removing discrimination. We’ll also reduce cost of housing, power, doctors & childcare + review the Act & policies of WINZ to ensure people can access their entitlements, be treated with respect & have enough to participate in society.
https://nzelection.askaway.org.nz/q/can-you-commit-to-raising-welfare-benefits-above-recognised-poverty-lines
I don’t know about raising benefits “above the poverty line” but an immediate 10% increase would be very affordable. If you wanted to do it.
Will be interested to see why the GP feel that it can’t be done now. Whether it’s a costing issue or something else.
Sorting out WINZ culture properly would make a big difference too if the dept was required to make sure that beneficiaries were informed of their entitlements and supported to access them. Raising base benefits is probably easier though.
@ Weka
Agree that sorting out WINZ culture is important. Politicians have to be responsible for the delivery of their programs, no use saying ‘It’s an operational matter’, don’t bother me further. Not sure how to get that done though. Labour got into trouble with Christine and her knees and earrings as symbols for the corporate queen style. What is needed is sober humanity under any sort of decent outer chosen, but the style of performance and attitude must change and it may need a change of CEO. And one that replaces must have a different grid of requirements and expectations to meet.
And give an immediate 10% rise on the benefits. Before Christmas.
If we get a change of government too. Oh happy day.
(Get Elvis to sing that for you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dGVqFPQF8E)
or try –
Over the Rainbow with the very weighty Israel now dead but with a great Hawaiian spirit. IZ Over the Rainbow
It’s one of the conversations I’d like to have after the election. There’s a broad consensus about the need to change the culture, but very little on how it could be done. I agree that the choice of CEO is one of the critical things. I would rate compassion as one of the top criteria.
@ weka
Definitely got to be near the top along with experience in working in the social and not for profit sector, with practical and successful expertise behind him/her.
This generic thing is crazy, there may be a management base that applies to all entities, but treating people as units to be pushed around with efficiency as the first priority is not the humane way.
A couple of questions to our Standard friends .How many of you noticed Mike Hoskins derogatory remark regarding Labours tax policy when dismissing Harawera ‘s answer,
Not being very familier with Epsom are the residents of Epsom as mean and nasty as the one’s interviewed onTV one Tuesday?
Not all of them, posty, but mean and nasty is par for the course for Epsom and Remuera. Mind you, I think there’s a lot of students/young professionals renting around Newmarket, so a small flame of humanity may still flicker on.
Media is full of right wing ‘faces’. After the election I was going just to listen to Nat radio, then I found Guyon there. Cripes, is there any unbiased non-branded news presenting left in NZ? Its because they have face and name recognition that they are paid heaps more, and so they falling into the top tax range, and thus have a direct incentive to seek lower taxes for themselves.
A lot of clutter on this Open Mike today courtesy of pr.
I really enjoyed not having to bypass all the taunts and insults posted by said rwt.
Sigh.
I agree. He’s ruining what is normally a good site.
He’s be so happy to read this ! But LPrent has him on warning for a long lockout today .. but wasn’t it good last week without the rwnj mob … clutter is a good word Paul.
Yeah, I mostly just read here and don’t post much, but I am really sick of the right wing trolls like PR. Why can’t they just be banned? They contribute nothing and waste everyones time. More lefties might contribute here if the trolls were gone.
Know thine enemy.
I know who the opposition is though, I hear them all day through the mainstream media. Fighting with paid RWNJs here as well is just demoralizing.
I’ve been following the Scottish Independence referendum with fascination. The Yes campaign have all the same problems we have with a hostile, biased media but yet they are on the verge of achieving the incredible. They have done it all with a grassroots organization. To get a cohesive grassroots organization going you need to make people feel joined together with optimism and hope. I think the NZ left need a positive place free of RWNJs to congregate and share ideas.
PR and others of his ilk deliberately crash otherwise productive discussions on these threads in order to drive away readers/lurkers to The Standard.
Yes, standard modus operandi for the right. Has anybody asked for tighter moderating of this site to stop the RWNJs? Why should the left provide yet another place for them to spout their venom? I don’t think the left is going to get much further ahead in NZ unless some things are changed. The Scottish experience has shown that if you give people hope then they will get engaged in politics. That hope is not going to come via the MSM in NZ, there needs to be other channels.
Agreed. The radical left are the only ones speaking up. The centre left seem too petrified of spooking the middle vote.
I think middle NZ are open to new ideas if you can offer a vision. But identity politics has had its day. I’m going to assume the 20% of people who have stopped voting in the last few decades are left voters. We need those people to re-engage, and it will need to start at grass roots level. If the Scots can take back their country then surely we can. This indyref of theirs is really about getting rid of the neolibs in Westminster. Maybe we need a new political party on the left, a party that can take over from Labour which is now moribund with career politicians who are more interested in a lifetime career than making a difference. But first it would be nice to have a place to talk without the RWNJs.
They can share their views on the extreme right wing sites they frequent.
As others have said, let’s keep this site for the constructive free sharing of progressive ideas.
The puerile comments brigade from the right is very tiresome.
Article in the Herald this afternoon: Fraudster tries to get family out of tin shed.
“…For five years, Rosalina Filoa Leavasa applied for income-related support for rent to which she was not entitled — offending sparked by financial pressures and arduous living conditions.
The mother of three, who was supporting a son with epilepsy and a husband with chronic arthritis, was working seven days a week to make ends meet but still struggled, her lawyer Justin Harder said.
For four months the family lived in a metal garage – which he said exacerbated their medical issues – before moving to a house in Mangere…”
A couple of thoughts:
1. Doesn’t this also mean that for five years the processing and auditing of the WINZ office was amazingly substandard?
2. If she was supporting a son with epilepsy and a husband with chronic arthritis on a caregiver’s wage – why the hell is she not entitled to income-related support?
FYI
10 September 2014
OPEN LETTER to Stephen Franks, Principal, Franks and Ogilvie
“Are these ‘WhaleDump’ emails true?”
Dear Stephen,
It is with some deep concern, that I have read the following alleged email correspondence, between Jordan Williams, then, as I understand it, employed as a Solicitor at your company, Franks and Ogilvie.
http://www.nbr.co.nz/opinion/twitter-suspends-whaledump-account
There is significant public interest in these matters relating to ‘dirty politics’.
I would appreciate your honest response to the following questions:
Are these emails true?
Yes or no?
If yes, is the ‘Steve’ referred to in these emails by Jordan Williams, yourself?
Yes or no?
Is it correct that Jordan Williams now employed as a ‘consultant’ as opposed to a ‘solicitor’ by Franks and Ogilvie?
http://www.franksogilvie.co.nz/
http://nz.linkedin.com/pub/jordan-williams/20/b29/34
If yes, why is Jordan Williams not currently listed as a consultant in your list of ‘people’ at Franks and Ogilvie?
I note that in 2008, you were the National Party candidate for Wellington Central.
http://www.stephenfranks.co.nz/wellington-central-candidate-for-the-national-party/
Are you still connected in any way with the National Party?
If so – how?
Looking forward to your prompt reply.
Yours sincerely,
Penny Bright
‘Anti-corruption /anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’
Take your pick – it was either Jeremy Elwood or Scott Yorke (I expect not Yorke) on Mora’s ‘Panel’ half an hour ago – “Kim Dotcom and Hone Harawira are the two most hated people in New Zealand……”. Strictly that assessment defies proof, or disproof for that matter, but isn’t it a tad hysterical ?
My gut feeling tells me it is. If so does that not typify the oftentimes ludicrous offerings in this spot ? As always unchallenged by the unctuous Mora as eager stroker of the pulsating vanities of so many of his guests.
it was yorke..
..and that wasn’t the only utter shite he spouted..
..and elwood should stick to his day-job..
..as an attempt at being a serious opinionater he is just another (surprisingly) reactionary-voice in the talkback-babble..
..yet another dire panel..
..and as a factcheck on mora:..i have heard him say that the mana party pot policy is the result of internets’ pot-policy..(subtext:..dotcom pulling harawiras’ strings..i know what you are doing mr mora..)
..this is utter bullshit..the mana medicinal-marijuana policy went thru the policy process before the int/mana deal was inked..
..i know ‘cos i was there for part of it..argued for it..
..so if he cd stop spreading that lie..?
The Panel is best avoided.
Full of people with strong regressive ideas on issues they are uninformed about.
Better to have a show that had on informed guests with a touch more humility.
Nice article about media bias in the wake of Dirty Politics.
The MSM has resumed it’s focus on trivialities that undermine the ‘left’ parties. Not just because that’s what a compromised, biased media would do, but because the more you look at it the more you see that it’s not about collusion between our govt and a gang of hideous bloggers, it’s about collusion between our govt and a gang of hideous bloggers and the MSM.
They’ve realised that this story is a bit to close to being about themselves.
Amazing article. May it be reposted far and wide. Think I might revive my dead blog for that
Tova O’Brien has called some of us haters for being critical of her use of the phrase “dirty politics”; at the end of her report on 3 news tonight.
It was a report on the NAT Party Pacific candidate, being criticised by the Labour candidate for using a Samoan title she is not eligible for.
“Dirty Politics” means so much more than a couple of criticisms or even isolated smears.
O’Brien’s response is that
Depends on what they all mean by “dirty politics”. Shouldn’t just take their word for it.
She’s being very defensive.
“She’s being very defensive.”
So are Duncan Garner and Patrick Gower on twitter – so I’m told (I’m not on twitter).
Getting quite upset at being criticised, even politely.
“Dirty Politics” shows us that MSM journalists also need to be held to account.
Maybe some are now feeling a bit vulnerable as a result of that?
Puddlegum, you do not need to be on Twitter (ie have a Twitter account) to read people’s feeds on Twitter. I refuse to join, but am able to read Twitter feeds.
All you need to do is google – eg Duncan Garner Twitter – go to the link; then go to the Full Profile to get onto the full feed for that person. Then you can save to your Favorites or Favorites bar (or Bookmarks) to be able to read their Twitter feed. You can then read conversations when this shows under a comment; or click on the “2 hrs” or whatever shows in the timescale to read replies etc.
Thanks veutoviper. That makes it easy. I’ll have a look.
Good poll on TV3, with a pretty much perfect result for the Conservatives 😉
http://www.3news.co.nz/politics/conservatives-on-brink-of-entering-parliament-2014091018
Debate on TV3 at 8.40. No quarter, David, no quarter.
Also very good for NZ First. greens holding up well.
Still poised between (potential) left and right blocks.
Hmmmm. I think Key will be firing tonight. He hates to lose.
I don’t think Key fired at all tonight. He’s looking tired. He’s a bit gabby but what he says is meaningless. David Cunliffe is the one with the eloquence and the reality.
Great stuff DC on TV3 debate tonight.
I can’t stand Paul Henry so am not watching the after-match – don’t want to spoil my own enjoyment of DC’s good performance…… despite him not getting half of the airtime !
Henry right on his usual nasty cues. He hates it if the panelists applaud David for getting points across.
Don’t bother watching Henry!
The test is all done. Didn’t fall back to a readonly at Sydney correctly (damnit).
However the operating system upgrades worked perfectly apart from having to recompile the ethernet drivers again for the new kernel. I have to make those automatic.
Great. I was wondering why there wasn’t a close down.