Open mike 11/01/2024

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 11th, 2024 - 74 comments
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74 comments on “Open mike 11/01/2024 ”

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  1. SPC 1
    11 January 2024 at 7:42 am

    Back in 2017 the issue was prison numbers and a way was found to resolve this.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/107588798/corrections-cuts-prison-numbers-by-stepping-up-successful-parole-hearings

    Now the issue

    Justice delayed is justice denied:

    500 days for a jury trial, 18 months for victims of serious crime for their day in court.

    What do journalists do when in a hammock with a laptop and a cell phone?

    The new Government is taking a laser focus … but some of the options could undermine judicial discretion and lead to a greater risk of innocent people pleading guilty.

    Setting greater rewards for early guilty pleas into law is one of several changes

    This is because a standard 25% discount was being applied regardless of how far the case had progressed (a 2021 study result). However research in Canada suggested a risk.

    Research in Canada, for example, has shown innocent people pleading guilty to avoid spending time in jail on remand, where living conditions were poor and they were isolated from family.

    In other words, those who were stuck behind bars had much more incentive to plead guilty than those who were already out.

    Which is all related to access to bail, or home detention as alternative to prison on remand. But also why serve time on remand before a case when a guilty plea means an earlier sentence and earlier knowledge of when they will get out (those on remand are more likely to sentenced to prison if found guilty).

    The Supreme Court questioned giving those obviously guilty a 25% reduction just for admitting it early

    “unjustified windfall benefits … to those who have little choice but to plead guilty”.

    The previous Government was also looking into more incentives for earlier case resolution, including more money for police prosecutions, and requiring police to give defendants more information earlier on. It also wanted to shift when defendants can elect a jury trial to later in the process, which was aimed at discouraging such trials.

    The article goes onto a lot of other factors,

    Potential factors included “running down judicial resourcing”, more defendants representing themselves in court, financial incentives for a longer process – the more court events, the higher the legal aid fees – and an “adjournment mentality”.

    The latter is seemingly encouraged by the 2011 Criminal Procedure Act (CPA), which was meant to lead to more cases closing earlier by encouraging lawyers from both sides to discuss alternative resolutions. In reality, it had created a “‘tick box’ effect on prosecution and defence … ultimately creating adjournments”.

    And onto the core of the issue

    One was lawyers lacking enough information to make early plea recommendations. Another was a perception that cases might weaken over time, so it was seen as beneficial to drag them out and see what happens.

    “As a result, as one of the lawyers in the Manukau group put it: ‘You would never find a lawyer who would recommend [pleading guilty early].’ This emerging default approach is compounded by the workload pressure,” the report said.

    A lawyer in Christchurch told researchers that there was too much work, so it was convenient for both sides to “let things drift along … pleading guilty later is one way they can do this”.

    Like the review of NZ research, the report identified financial incentives in legal aid cases that take longer to resolve, and unintended consequences with the CPA.

    Of course if there was a a 25% discount for an early guilty plea, the clients of the said lawyers would have more a motive to have it sorted earlier.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/justice-minister-paul-goldsmith-on-reducing-court-delays-as-government-key-priority/GCWSFAWANJCNNIKUZEC6IBZUDA/

  2. aj 2
    11 January 2024 at 8:03 am

    Heartily sick of these stories. When are drivers going to take responsibility for their lack of road skills.

    Use your eyes, potholes are well visible if you are awake. Slow down, take the slight deviation necessary to miss them.

    The photo in this story shows the pothole is actually almost off the edge of the road.

    Raj Narayan had enjoyed his newly purchased 2018 BMW 125i for about 15 minutes when he hit a pothole on State Highway 2 near Napier, that caused his rear-view mirror to fly off, and damaged his wheel and suspension.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/301037459/the-pothole-and-a-complaint-process-that-took-a-long-road-to-nowhere

    • Visubversa 2.1
      11 January 2024 at 8:52 am

      People seem to think that a bucket full of "hot mix" will fix a pothole in 5 minutes. They also draw no distinction between State Highways which are Government responsibilities, and local roads which are the responsibility of the Local Authority.

      The previous NACT Government increased the allowable weight of the road haulage vehicles while freezing the SH repair budget.

      The main enemies of road surfaces are pressure and water. Pressure from heavy vehicles can cause cracks in the road surface. The water gets in and the basecourse deteriorates and washes out.

      You cannot fix this properly during wet weather because the basecourse of the road has to be properly dry before a permanent repair can be made. You can do a temporary repair, but it deteriorates quickly.

      • Mike the Lefty 2.1.1
        11 January 2024 at 12:40 pm

        Whatever the problems National will snap its fingers and instantly all the potholes will be fixed, at least that is what they have convinced so many petrol heads to believe.

        The trick will be to get National to snap its fingers. It is still in its post election victory celebratory mode at the moment and can't be arsed.

    • Adrian 2.2
      11 January 2024 at 10:46 am

      Not true, heavy rain, oncoming traffic with lights on, half the time on full beam and too narrow roads so avoiding action is bloody dangerous are great disguises for holes, and NO, most are not on the edge of the road the vast majority are caused by very heavy trucks invariably going too fast for conditions and are some distance from the edge of the road. Too heavy truck and trailer units are completely the fault of the corrupt National Party who got millions from the transport industry prior to the 2008 election.
      An interesting bit of research would be exactly how many of the far too numerous head-on crashes are caused by avoiding large pot holes? Do the Police not include this as a contributing cause?

      • aj 2.2.1
        11 January 2024 at 10:51 am

        Yes there are some mitigating circumstances.

        This story didn't feature any of them.

        Totally agree about trucks.

  3. SPC 3
    11 January 2024 at 8:44 am

    It seems the Houthi are about to get what they deserve.

    First they lied that their attack on Red Sea shipping was a targeted blockade on Israel

    Now this double speak

    Later, Houthi military spokesman Yahya al-Sarea confirmed its forces had carried out an operation involving "a large number of ballistic and naval missiles and drones".

    "It targeted a US ship that was providing support for the Zionist entity [Israel]," he said.

    "The operation came as an initial response to the treacherous assault on our naval forces by the US enemy forces," he added, referring to the sinking of three Houthi speed boats and killing of their crews by US Navy helicopters during an attempted attack on a container ship on 31 December.

    The ship the Houthi tried to attack had nothing to do with Israel, and thus defence of it was a defence of freedom of the seas.

    He added that the rebels would "not hesitate to adequately deal with all hostile threats as part of the legitimate right to defend our country, people and nation".

    Stopping an attack on shipping is not an attack on Yemen, or the people of Yemen, but on a group involved in an on-going organised crime.

    Mr Sarea also reiterated that the Houthis would continue to "prevent Israeli ships or ships heading towards occupied Palestine from navigating in both the Red Sea and the Arabian Sea until the [Israeli] aggression [on Gaza] has come to an end and the blockade has been lifted".

    Many of the ships attacked in the Red Sea were sailing away from Palestine – transporting goods from Europe to Asia.

    Apparently the goal of the Houthi is to attack world shipping to blackmail the world into appeasement of its terrorism. Which should be seen as an international crime.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67932725

    • Morrissey 3.1
      11 January 2024 at 8:51 am

      Apparently the goal of the Houthi is to attack world shipping to blackmail the world into appeasement of its terrorism. Which should be seen as an international crime.

      ????

      The goal of the Houthi is to prevent and hamper shipping that supports Israeli/American terrorism, which is an international crime.

      FIFY.

      • Belladonna 3.1.1
        11 January 2024 at 9:00 am

        Difficult to see how merchant ships which were not Israeli owned or operated – and were sailing away from the Suez canal – had anything to do with Palestine or Gaza.

        "India increased surveillance in the waters after an India-bound commercial vessel carrying crude oil was targeted last month by a drone attack off the country’s west coast."

        https://www.voanews.com/a/indian-navy-rescues-commercial-ship-in-arabian-sea-after-hijack-attempt-/7429058.html

        It makes your claim that the Houthi goal is only "to prevent and hamper shipping that supports Israeli/American terrorism, which is an international crime." – rather questionable.

      • SPC 3.1.2
        11 January 2024 at 9:04 am

        And the reality.

        They are obstructing shipping carrying cargo between Europe and Asia.

        Two of the nations least affected are the USA and Israel.

        • Morrissey 3.1.2.1
          11 January 2024 at 9:17 am

          The fact is, the Houthis are the only people with the integrity to do what the rest of the world should be doing: stopping Israel's crimes. If countries like New Zealand, Australia, and the United States did something meaningful to stop the genocide in Gaza instead of handwringing (or actually supporting it) then the Houthis would not be forced to do something.

          Of course, it's no surprise to see this group above all others, taking active steps to support the people of Gaza. They've been subjected to a U.S.-backed genocide of their own for the last decade….

          https://thegrayzone.com/2021/01/12/us-al-qaeda-yemen-houthis-terrorists/

          • Belladonna 3.1.2.1.1
            11 January 2024 at 9:25 am

            If the Houthis were only attacking Israeli shipping (whether owned, operated or en-route to Israel) you would have a point. However, they are not.

            Their reported depredations seem to be purely targets of opportunity – and therefore it's simple piracy.

            • Morrissey 3.1.2.1.1.1
              11 January 2024 at 9:33 am

              No, it's not simple piracy. It's political. The politics can be solved immediately: Washington can stop the slaughter with a simple command. The Houthis' political attacks on Western shipping would cease.

              • SPC …
                11 January 2024 at 9:35 am

                Attacks on all shipping between Europe and Asia, not just western.

                At least you concede it is not a blockade on Israel.

                • Morrissey …
                  11 January 2024 at 9:42 am

                  Like you, I don't think they should target shipping. It's counterproductive, as you so ably point out. They're too small to blockade any nation of course. The country blockading Israel would be the United States, if it actually took seriously its own rhetoric about "rules base order" and "human rights."

              • Belladonna …
                11 January 2024 at 9:44 am

                Oh, so it is now (in your opinion) a wider attack on Western shipping – nothing to do with attacking shipping which supports Israel.
                A reversal of your initial claim that the Houthi goal is only “to prevent and hamper shipping that supports Israeli/American terrorism, which is an international crime.”

                If the Houthis want war with the Western world, I hope (though strongly doubt) they are prepared for the consequences.

                Please note that countries such as India, China and Russia are just as outraged as the 'West' – as their shipping is being targeted as well.

              • Terry …
                11 January 2024 at 12:59 pm

                Attack on shipping is piracy. Full stop. Political attacks on shipping is terrorism.

                Calling an act of violence a political act is no excuse for violence. And in my humble opinion a combination politics and violence is heading towards terrorism.

                I’m not into violence l, unless it’s an old school war movie like the Battle of Britain.
                Any it’s just a thought

                • millsy …
                  11 January 2024 at 1:10 pm

                  Not into violence unless it is the butchering of Palestinians…

                  [one month ban for flaming another commenter. You’ve been warned about this before. One example is here. To make it really clear, if you want to keep commenting here, stop flaming, and the things we addressed in the past day about presenting evidence at the time of commenting. I suggest you book mark the mod notes, because you appear to not remember them. Mods are out of patience – weka]

          • Tiger Mountain 3.1.2.1.3
            11 January 2024 at 9:40 am

            Agree Morrissey.

            yes

    • SPC 3.2
      11 January 2024 at 9:19 am

      The Houthi now have the worlds attention.

      The UN Security Council scheduled a vote on a resolution that would condemn and demand an immediate halt to attacks by Yemen's Houthi rebels on merchant and commercial vessels in the Red Sea area.

      At an open Security Council meeting last week, Russia's UN Ambassador Vassily Nebenzia called on Houthi leaders to implement the statement by the 13 countries and halt attacks.

      But he stressed that the Houthi's actions must be seen as a response to "Israel's brutal operation in Gaza", and the best scenario would be for the Security Council to redouble efforts to end the Yemen civil war and the Israel-Hamas conflict.

      The "catastrophic" scenario, Nebenzia said, would be to escalate the use of force in the Red Sea which risks derailing a settlement of the Yemen conflict . It would also create conditions "for igniting a new major conflict around at least the Arabian Peninsula" and a wider regional conflict, he said.

      The resolution would affirm that the navigational rights and freedoms of merchant and commercial vessels must be respected, and take note "of the right of member states, in accordance with international law, to defend their vessels from attacks, including those that undermine navigational rights and freedoms".

      Without naming Iran, the Houthis main arms supplier, the draft to be voted on would condemn all arms dealings with the rebels, which violate Security Council sanctions. It would also call for "additional practical cooperation to prevent the Houthis from acquiring the material necessary to carry out further attacks"

      It "urges caution and restraint to avoid further escalation of the situation in the Red Sea and the broader region". And it "encourages enhanced diplomatic efforts by all parties to that end, including continued support for dialogue and Yemen's peace process under the UN auspices".

      https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/10/un-to-vote-on-resolution-on-houthi-rebels-red-sea-attacks/

      Formally known as the Ansar Allah (Partisans of God), the Houthis began as a movement that championed Yemen's Zaidi Shia Muslim minority.

      In 2014, they took control of the capital, Sanaa, and seized large parts of western Yemen the following year, prompting a Saudi-led coalition to intervene in support of the international-recognised Yemeni government.

      The ensuing war has reportedly killed more than 150,000 people and left 21 million others in need of humanitarian assistance.

      Saudi Arabia and the US have accused Iran of smuggling weapons, including drones and cruise and ballistic missiles, to the Houthis in violation of a UN arms embargo. Iran has denied the allegation.

      https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67932725

      • weka 3.2.1
        11 January 2024 at 10:17 am

        ease back on the copypasta please. People can read the link if they want all that. We prefer that people explain their points in their own words (and use links/quotes to highlight or back up).

    • Tiger Mountain 4.1
      11 January 2024 at 9:36 am

      US Imperialism remains the major impediment to world peace, and resolution of scores of asymmetrical armed conflicts, aggressions and post colonial fallout scenarios.

      Go Houthis!–they are showing solidarity with Palestine which the likes of the gutless EU and many others are unwilling to. Do you really expect brutalised populations and organisations to pay any attention to zionist supporters and comfortable westerners “rules”?

      Heh, I don’t. Friends of mine have been on Kia Ora Gaza flotillas to try and breach the sea blockade and deliver medical and other aid to Gaza, they were luck to escape with their lives after being detained illegally on international waters, taken to shore, beaten by IDF thugs and thankfully released after various interventions.

      The Israelis learnt the lesson of the Warsaw Ghetto well, tragically it was totally the wrong lesson–“do what the Nazis did to a captured population”.

      • SPC 4.1.1
        11 January 2024 at 9:43 am

        The Houthi are not even good for Yemen.

        Yemen has made compromises and worked hard to rebuild its country and regain the trust of its people, but the head of the Presidential Leadership Council on Thursday cautioned the international community that “dealing with Houthi militias as de facto authorities” would likely reverse hard-won gains and could turn Yemen into a hotspot to export terrorism worldwide.

        “We hope that the Houthi militias will recognize a singular truth: Only a State that is based on the rule of law and equal citizenship will ensure that our country is stable, safe, and respected in the region” and wider international community, he said.

        “There is a sure path towards peace by rekindling the trust of the Yemeni people in international legitimacy and in their national government,” he continued. “For that, we need to support the legal government, we need to strengthen the economy so that the government can provide services so that we can put an end to the militias and build a brighter future.”

        https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/09/1141192

      • ResPublica 4.1.2
        11 January 2024 at 11:28 am

        US Imperialism remains the major impediment to world peace, and resolution of scores of asymmetrical armed conflicts, aggressions and post colonial fallout scenarios.

        Just how is this the case Tiger Mountain? When I was studying international relations back during the Iraq War, my lecturer always warned us against trying to find a single root cause for any IR problem.

        In the context of the latest cycle of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, I'd absolutely agree that US policy vis a vis the Middle East has created an epic moral and geopolitical quagmire. And that their financial and military support for the Israeli state is fundamentally important to Israeli security policy. And probably contributed to the IDF's gung-ho approach of committing egregious war crimes first, and then maybe thinking about asking questions later.

        But to simply blame all of this on "US Imperialism" is, in my view, a trite and rather lazy analysis.

        What about Russian Imperialism? or China's growing assertiveness as their economy cools down and the prospect of a short victorious war to reclaim Taiwan looks increasingly tantalising? Are they not also massive threats to global peace?

        Or, even more salient, what about the Israelis? They're perfectly capable of setting and asserting their own policy objectives. And they don't give a proverbial about what anyone (even the USA) has to say about them.

        • Tiger Mountain 4.1.2.1
          11 January 2024 at 3:48 pm

          Don’t buy your misgivings. US Imperialist hegemony remains supreme, though fading a little compared to the late 20th century.

          I said major not only impediment. The US has almost a thousand publicly discoverable off shore military bases and surveillance facilities, many butted right up against their declared enemies territories in Eastern Europe, Asia and the Mid East. Imagine the reaction if say Iran parked up one ship off the coast of Mexico…the USA has maintained an economic blockade of Cuba since 1959. They are the lead enforcers for capital and international finance capital.

          BRICS and the South generally are going to kick their arse sooner rather than later unless they pull their heads in.

          Israel would be gone by lunchtime tomorrow if the US cascade of money and arms were withdrawn.

        • Morrissey 4.1.2.2
          11 January 2024 at 3:58 pm

          But to simply blame all of this on "US Imperialism" is, in my view, a trite and rather lazy analysis.

          You're correct. The original injustice here was perpetrated by Great Britain and France. You can't deny the role of the U.S. now, however. Britain especially, and also France are no more than vassal states. Extremely violent and powerful vassal states, but vassal states nonetheless. Just like Israel.

          By the way, why did you put scare quotes around "US Imperialism"? Do you think it's not real?

          • Res Publica 4.1.2.2.1
            11 January 2024 at 5:33 pm

            US Imperialism is very much real, just not the sole cause of everything wrong with the world.

            It's fair to say great power diplomacy has done a great deal of the heavy lifting when it comes to messing up the middle east, but we have to bear in mind that Israel is a sovereign country with its own strategic aims.

            [Please fix your user name in your next comment, thanks – Incognito]

          • Terry 4.1.2.2.2
            11 January 2024 at 5:44 pm

            I’m thinking that the original injustices were committed by the ancient Egyptians many thousands of years before the birth Christ, and every tyrant is just copying those that came before…

  5. Tiger Mountain 5
    11 January 2024 at 9:13 am

    Dirty Politics never sleeps…eh ZB…

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/506410/green-mp-golriz-ghahraman-stands-aside-from-portfolios-after-being-accused-of-shoplifting

    Golriz has endured the foulest abuse, most of it misogynist and racist, since she first became politically active in NZ. The timeline and details of this accusation will be interesting to see when the facts emerge. NZ Labour finally took an applaudable stand on the Gaza Genocide and then this type of story pops up.

    • Morrissey 5.1
      11 January 2024 at 9:30 am

      Even worse than the outright abuse is the condescension from the likes of Susan Hornsby-Geluk.

      [loose transcript deleted]

      https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-03-11-2018/#comment-1545975

      • Morrissey 5.1.1
        11 January 2024 at 11:57 am

        That transcript was absolutely accurate. I transcribed painstakingly from the RNZ recording of the show. I took care to include every "umm" and "aah" that Jim Mora and Susan Hornsby-Geluk uttered, and even the way that they lengthened the vowel sounds on some words.

        • Morrissey 5.1.1.1
          11 January 2024 at 12:18 pm

          I invite anyone to listen to this recording of that awful programme and then claim with a straight face that my transcript of it was "loose"…..

          https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/thepanel/audio/2018669364/the-panel-with-susan-hornsby-geluk-and-mike-rehu-part-1

          • weka 5.1.1.1.1
            11 January 2024 at 12:54 pm

            the problem is that in the past you did do loose transcripts, and as a mod I have no way to know if that was one of them. I did leave the link in, so people can click through if they want to read it.

            • Morrissey 5.1.1.1.1.1
              11 January 2024 at 3:26 pm

              Thanks weka. You're quite right, I used to dash the transcripts down in my own imperfect shorthand, then write them up as accurately as I could—

              That's no longer the case: for the last five years or so, I've transcribed these horrendous conversations word for word, laboriously and with total accuracy.

              Don't worry, though, weka: I don't intend to do too many of them in future. It's just too time-consuming to do on a regular basis.

              • roblogic …
                11 January 2024 at 4:18 pm

                Try riverside.fm/transcriptions – seems pretty legit. It generated this for me:
                https://pastebin.com/RAUBpqwR

                It was a fun challenge to generate this transcription (and find a free service!), but it's over 1000 words so I can see why the mods are grumpy.

                I liked the Morrissey comedy versions! But why are you digging up old stuff from 2018?

                • Morrissey …
                  11 January 2024 at 7:14 pm

                  Try riverside.fm/transcriptions – seems pretty legit. It generated this for me:
                  https://pastebin.com/RAUBpqwR

                  OMG, Rob! That's just sensational! Thanks very much for that. The wonders of computers never cease to amaze me.

                  I liked the Morrissey comedy versions!

                  All the comedy in them–it was unintentional comedy always, AKA black comedy–was courtesy of Mr Mora and his terrifyingly horrible/stupid guests. And some of his colleagues as well, like Katherine Ryan, Kim Hill, Jesse Mulligan, Bryan Crump, Noelle McCarthy…. sad

                  But why are you digging up old stuff from 2018?

                  Because it related directly to the topic under discussion, viz., the concerted political and media campaign over many years to belittle, smear, and traduce one of the few politicians in this country that speaks with honesty and acts with integrity.

                  This risible attack on her by a third-rater occurred even earlier, in 2017. It's no less relevant, and no less disgusting after all those years…

                  https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-12-2017/#comment-1421632

        • Incognito 5.1.1.2
          11 January 2024 at 4:17 pm

          IMO, that piece of text was irrelevant (and dated) and it bordered on an attempt to divert. I just noticed your attempt this morning to link to your own blog site.

          • Morrissey 5.1.1.2.1
            11 January 2024 at 6:12 pm

            IMO, that piece of text was irrelevant

            I stated clearly why I was posting it. Tiger Mountain had pointed out the history of racist and misogynistic abuse suffered by this fine young M.P.; I amplified this by pointing out that the condescension of people like Hornsby-Geluk was even worse than the moronic low-level stuff on NewstalkZB, on Kiwiblog and the (thankfully defunct) Whale Oil site.

            (and dated)

            There is a history of foul abuse directed at Golriz Gharaman dating back to when she began her parliamentary career. When is the cut-off date for pointing to instances of this abuse? Are you going to forbid anyone mentioning Duncan Garner's attempt to smear her and intimidate her on three's a.m. show on 29 November 2017?

            and it bordered on an attempt to divert.

            The example I provided was a reinforcement of what Tiger Mountain wrote. How on earth was it "an attempt to divert"?

            I just noticed your attempt this morning to link to your own blog site.

            Why exactly is it wrong for me to link to an article on my site?

            • Incognito 5.1.1.2.1.1
              11 January 2024 at 8:12 pm

              I have no interest in wasting my time with a vexatious litigant and countering or explaining every single point you raised. I was contemplating how to moderate (!) your comment when another Mod deleted the quoted text, so now it’s a moot point, but undoubtedly, some of this will come up again.

    • Anne 5.2
      11 January 2024 at 9:48 am

      Yes. Even if it transpires Golriz Ghahraman did commit or attempted to commit an unlawful misdemeanour, there are mitigating circumstances since she takes strong drugs to control her MS – drugs which can apparently cause 'brain fades' for the sufferer.

      The Herald was apparently the first outlet to reveal the story, but it does not surprise me that it came from ZB news. A little birdie from on high whispered into their ears? My pick it was Barry Soper’s but I could be wrong of course. 😮

      Maggie Barry must be relieved.

      • Tiger Mountain 5.2.1
        11 January 2024 at 10:01 am

        I had a hopefully humane response to Ms Ghahraman’s situation also with the chronic illness in the background. A couple of friends on chemo sometimes lose the plot a bit in various ways.

        Timing is significant with some of these types of stories about politicians. The Natzos are still trawling through the trash and social media of their political enemies 24/7 make no mistake about that.

      • SPC 5.2.2
        11 January 2024 at 10:09 am

        Wandering out of Scotties without paying, they would have tags on stuff, and without a get way car? Surely neither planned, nor deliberate.

        Possibly trying on shoes with a dress and then absent-minded leaving without paying for one or the other.

        Canon Bob Lowe, was twice charged because of his hand and into pocket habits pipe tobacco and chocolate – leaving after paying for one of the two – at the counter he realised he was there to pay for something but only remembered to check one pocket.

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/clean-slate-for-clergyman/5Q56GVEJ4GDN737GVAZXR6KCVI/

        • Brigitte 5.2.2.1
          11 January 2024 at 11:26 am

          Ah, Canon Bob Lowe. That was a long time ago – a friend of mine worked at the supermarket in question (Fendalton Supervalue) and said that Bob was persistently lightfingered and had been warned several times before said charging. After that the staff always referred to him as "pocket edition", after the brand of tobacco he was partial to (but apparently not partial to paying for).

      • Kay 5.2.3
        11 January 2024 at 10:47 am

        Anne- in a lot of countries this would fall under 'diminished responsibility' in criminal legislation. Unfortunately, NZ doesn't have that on the books. You're either fully culpable, or legally insane. (Found the link but my stupid computer won't open it, sorry). A first offence for a minor 'crime' would be eligible for diversion, but that's not the point, of course, if a person's behaviour is affected by (legally prescribed) medications.

        I was left with a criminal conviction for just that reason. Clean slated here for many years, but something the US Govt still cares about should I ever want to visit there.

      • Terry 5.2.4
        11 January 2024 at 1:08 pm

        Mitigating circumstances are for the average citizen.

        MP’s must be held to a higher standard of accountability and responsibility.

        Certainly we would be enjoying this if it was a National Party MP with a similar health problem.

    • SPC 5.3
      11 January 2024 at 9:55 am

      This is the defining nature of the report

      According to sources, Ghahraman is understood to have been accused of shoplifting during the festive season from exclusive boutique clothing store Scottie's Boutique in the electorate of fellow Green MP Chlöe Swarbrick.

      An irrelevant detail indicative of a certain tendency in Auckland (and or some right wing) media towards the Green Party (and or left wing women of youth or colour).

      The rest is in incident which becomes news, because its reporting has political consequences.

      • Anne 5.3.1
        11 January 2024 at 10:14 am

        "An irrelevant detail..."

        That is what I thought. What does Chloe Swarbrick have to do with it? An attempt to cast aspersions on her over the incident?

        Is this what we can look forward to in 2024? Attempts to discredit individual MPs within the Opposition parties? Even if they prove to be untrue they leave a nasty smell behind.

        • UncookedSelachimorpha 5.3.1.1
          11 January 2024 at 10:47 am

          It should be reported – when Maggie Barry had her recent Air NZ agitation, she boarded the plane in the electorate of Labour MP Lemauga Lydia Sosene and – shockingly – landed in the electorate of National MP Joseph Mooney!!

          Relevant points.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 5.3.2
        11 January 2024 at 10:36 am

        Absolutely – what a bizarre and I suspect malicious detail to add.

        I don't recall ever seeing the electorate in which an offence was committed by an MP mentioned before. Irrelevant unless Swarbrick was part of the same shopping trip etc.

    • Tony Veitch 5.4
      11 January 2024 at 10:15 am

      I obviously don't know the details, but I imagine it would be pretty easy to slip a small product into an open shopping bag in a crowded shop!

      Just saying!

      • Belladonna 5.4.1
        11 January 2024 at 10:18 am

        Indeed. However, Scotties Boutique is not a crowded shop. It's a very high-end, exclusive retailer of premium fashion (international designers) – it would be rare to have more than 2 or 3 people in the shop at any one time.

      • Robin The Goodfellow 5.4.2
        11 January 2024 at 10:19 am

        That is how a lot of shop lifters do it, small size and high value items go into the pocket and when confronted go "oops a daisy it was an accident"

        Not saying that's what happened here of course

      • SPC 5.4.3
        11 January 2024 at 10:25 am

        If it is Boutique Shopping, the objective is not to be crowded. People would view on-line and go in there to try on.

      • Terry 5.4.4
        11 January 2024 at 3:56 pm

        I’m sure the police will look for fingerprints on the items allegedly stolen. If your fingerprints are on the items it’s harder to claim “someone must have put them in my bag”. The other thing the police will look at will be the in store CCTV footage. Which will likely show who placed the the bag. I’m sure most high end boutiques have plenty of in store cameras. It’s a common practice, shoplifting in pairs, one person browsing with a open bag and another accomplice putting the items in the other person’s bag. If the bag holder gets caught they claim it wasn’t me

  6. tsmithfield 6
    11 January 2024 at 10:02 am

    Obviously I disagree with Ghahraman in a lot of political perspectives.

    But, I do think we need to show some humanity here. If the charges are proven, (yet to be the case) then it seems to me to be something so bizzare and abnormal for someone in her position, that it is reasonable to infer that there must have been some fairly major contributing circumstances to explain it.

    Afterall, she likely did not lack in money to pay for the goods, given her salary. And, the consequences of such actions to her position as an MP would have been glaringly obvious for someone thinking rationally.

    Whether her political career can survive this though, is another matter.

    • Res Publica 6.1
      11 January 2024 at 11:33 am

      I don't think it can, tsmithfield.

      It's a bit like the controversy surrounding Kiri Allen. It's less about the details of this crime vs that crime or whatever: it's about the perception of misjudgement and the harming of the party's political position.

      And as much as I agree with a lot of her political positions, the Green caucus isn't big enough to harbour MPs that are under a cloud, waste political capital, or aren't effective.

      Better she resigns now, staunches the bleeding, keeps her head down for a few months, and passes the baton on to whoever is next on the list.

      • Terry 6.1.1
        11 January 2024 at 4:15 pm

        I certainly agree that all MP’s must be held to a high standard of behaviour and accountability.

        I don’t necessarily believe that she should resign (assuming she did the shopping). However she certainly should not continue, if she has done what appears to have happened, unless she holds herself accountable without making excuses.

        BTW, something that annoys me about the Kiri Allen issue, is that it appears that she is considering challenging the charges on a “technicality”. We all know that she was driving a vehicle, over the alcohol limit, crashed into someone’s vehicle, and left the scene. This doesn’t sound like someone who is taking accountability for her actions, while she was a cabinet minister. And to me would cast a doubt on her integrity, considering she may be setting herself up as some sort of advisor working with government agencies.

        [You’re wasting time of Mods with your reoccurring typos in your email. From now on, all of your pending comments will go straight to Trash. And read Lprent’s Mod note for you – Incognito]

  7. Reality 7
    11 January 2024 at 10:23 am

    Interesting timing about this alleged shoplifting, given the recent bother Maggie Barry got herself into on Air New Zealand flight. It's as if the dirty politics operators are at the ready to distract at a moment's notice. Not being a ZB listener, am wondering if ZB Plus gave a breathless announcement about Maggie Barry's behaviour. Police are not called on to a departing flight for no good reason.

  9. Squirrel 9
    11 January 2024 at 4:31 pm

    I know exactly what it is – I just don't agree that it is playing out here. It doesn't need to.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • weka 9.1
      11 January 2024 at 4:39 pm

      if you want to talk about the shoplifting allegation, Open Mike is the place to do it. If you want to comment under my post about Dirty Politics, then please focus on that. None of your comments were about DP other than to say that you didn’t think it was.

  10. D 10
    11 January 2024 at 10:02 pm

    On Golriz-cut her a break everyone. She was on meds and two days before Christmas

  11. Rolling-on-Gravel 11
    11 January 2024 at 10:07 pm

    I'm going to stay out of the matter of Golriz Ghahraman and Scottie's until all is said and done, due to the rhetoric around that being pretty off-putting. I assume nothing yet.

    See ya. Hopefully my break isn’t interrupted this time.

  12. SPC 12
    11 January 2024 at 11:11 pm

    To paraphrase Desi Lydic of the The Daily Show, I've been on Fox News and I can explain, I've been on X and I cannot explain how weird it was.

    A Libertarian crossed over NZFirst while it was neither vaccinated, nor sterilised.

    Canada has too many people (probably Palestinian migrants) and Japan is a land without a people. Tucker Carlson loves Trump on Twitter, just as he did while on Fox News (but not in private), but Fox news is still Fox News and Twitter is now called X. Did no one tell Tucker? Tucker won't say a bad word about Trump, yet hates what Trump did, without saying Trump did it. He knows his audience and it has cognitive dissonance.

    A lockdown was a breach of freedom and vaccination was a matter of consent, so a lack of deaths during lockdown was proof that vaccination was not required. And this must not happen again.

    Death with COVID, not death by COVID. Death by COVID is death by RNA vaccine. Doctors who vaccinated people and then died by COVID, died by bio-weapons. The virus was a bio-weapon and the vaccine was a bio-weapon.

    If brevity is wit, what is X? If X crossed with Q, would LGBQT+ gain the X function? Would that make everyone bi-curious? Is gender identity, or is sex identity? What are they teaching in schools, does Tracey Martin know? NZF knows best, which NZF? Can we go back in time? What is is time?