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Open mike 11/04/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, April 11th, 2020 - 193 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

193 comments on “Open mike 11/04/2020 ”

  1. The Green Party initial list (as per Stuff Green Party initial election list puts newcomer Teanau Tuiono ahead of several sitting MPs):

    1. Marama Davidson
    2. James Shaw
    3. Jan Logie
    4. Eugenie Sage
    5. Teanau Tuiono (" veteran activist and education consultant who has worked at the United Nations and Massey University"
    6. Julie Anne Genter
    7. Chlöe Swarbrick
    8. Golriz Ghahraman
    9. Elizabeth Kerekere ("Tīwhanawhana Trust chair" – a takatāpui community group based in Wellington)
    10. Ricardo Menéndez March ("Auckland Action Against Poverty activist")

    I presume Davidson is ahead of Shaw to give co-leaders turns at the top.

    Gareth Hughes isn't standing again so I presume Tuiono is above some current MPs to put a bit of gender balance in the list.

    But there is still only 2 males in the top 6 (the minimum number of MPs if Greens get back it), and 2 in the top 9, and 3 in the top 10.

    Is the list likely to be gender balanced in later processes? Or do Greens not do gender balance any more.

    Another thing that seems apparent – with Hughes going and the three non MPs in the top ten looking like social activists, it looks like Greens may be leaning more towards social activism than climate activism.

    • xanthe 1.1

      "it looks like Greens may be leaning more towards social activism than climate activism." …. like they have forever! Just to be explicit the greens have not represented ecological wisdom for a generation.

  2. xanthe 2

    a random quote from twitter that struck a chord with me

    "Incredible. I think it's pretty clear now that #BillGates is a dangerous sociopath with way more money than sense. He has no academic qualifications & only achievement was dissemination biggest computer virus incubator, Microsoft OS. A scam which he's made billions from.."

    • Robert Guyton 2.1

      Gates has very well-qualified advisors.

      You've never made us of Microsoft?

      • xanthe 2.1.1

        use windows very reluctantly when unavoidable. dont have it on any of my machines , wont support it for others. It is very shoddy resource hungry and wide open for virus and scammer/spammers. At some point a decision must have been made to not rewrite it as secure but rather to support a burgeoning industry pushing anti virus, viruses .

        • Robert Guyton

          You're trying to link Gates' virtual anti-virus interest with his promotion of an anti-virus vaccine for COVID 19?

          • xanthe

            I am pointing out that in the virtual world Microsoft has allowed viruses to run rampant and profited from them. This is relevant to his outlook and the sort of "answers" we might expect from him.

            • Robert Guyton

              Virtual viruses are not the same as real-world viruses, xanthe.

              • xanthe

                But in both cases it is possible rather than taking steps to minimise the risk to monitize the problem.

            • KJT

              I'll just note that running Microsofts own anti malware and antivirus programmes and updates, and none of the others, I haven't had a virus on any of my computers since before, Vista.

              Not plugging Microsoft. Still pissed with them taking over Nokia, dumping Nokia's excellent final operating system for Windows phone, then bugging out.

        • McFlock

          At some point a decision must have been made to not rewrite it as secure but rather to support a burgeoning industry pushing anti virus, viruses .

          My understanding is "yes but no".

          It's a balancing act between letting users use the machine for what they want, but banning anyone from making any adjustments at all to the system.

          Macs went the other way, but now they get viruses, too.

          And they'd have more if they spent 20 years or more as the number 1 os. Now 'droids have the virus problem, too, but it's more to steal data.

          • Nic the NZer

            A decade or so ago I expressed that the number of viruses on a platform is proportional to the size of its user base and that Linux would get viruses as much with as much popularity. Since MacOs is linux based im counting it.

            I think pre-vista the default configuration of no separate admin privileges was an issue though.

            • McFlock

              lol yeah and ISTR Vista initially went too far the other way with security "are you sure"-style popups what felt like ten times to install a single program.

    • RedLogix 2.2

      Honestly xanthe I think you are heading in completely the wrong direction with that.

      • xanthe 2.2.1

        not at all red. If you examine and understand microsoft business practice he clearly should not be allowed any influence in the current crisis .. we need open source solutions here!

        • alwyn

          It is a very long time since Gates had a dominant role at Microsoft xanthe.

          He stepped down as CEO in 2000, when he was replaced by Steve Ballmer. Gates became what was called Chief Software Architect,although most of his time and interest seemed to be related to his Foundation.

          He ceased to have any day to day duties at the company in 2008, although he stayed as Board Chairman. He then stood down as Board Chairman in 2014. He isn't even on the company Board any more as he stood down from that role last month.

          Blaming your complaints about Microsoft and its business practices today on Gates really is pushing things a bit far, don't you think?



          • SPC

            It's a criticism of the Windows OS being open to viruses and spying and yet realising a form of monopoly presence.

            • alwyn

              Xanthe is saying

              "not at all red. If you examine and understand microsoft business practice he clearly should not be allowed any influence in the current crisis .. we need open source solutions here!"

              Well the current crisis is Covid 19 and that is what Bill Gates is wanting to help with. Talking about Microsoft being subject to viruses of the computer variety hardly seems to be relevant when the subject seems to be whether The Gates Foundation should have anything to do with finding a solution to the the viruses of the medical type that Covid 19 comprises.

              If xanthe is really only interested in what she says about Windows Bill Gates is irrelevant these days. He simply doesn't have anything to do with their operations. All he does these days is collect the dividends from the shares he owns.

          • xanthe

            The anti competitive activities go right back to Gates from the very start of microsoft.

        • Incognito

          A bit late to start rallying against the philanthropic investments of the Gates Foundation into biomedical research. They have been around for the last 20 years!

    • mauī 2.3

      Hey who says a billionaire IT guy shouldn't have undue influence on the World Health Organisation and the media during a global health crisis!

  3. Cinny 3

    Crikey trump is diabolical. Everyday he lies to the USA re the virus and then defends his lies by inflating his ego to the press.

    Reminds me of how the CCP first dealt with the situation, misleading the public via a lack of accurate information.

    Currently trump, putin and the saudi's big problem and focus is their large stockpiles of oil. They are all complaining about ships full of oil sitting in the ocean waiting for the lock down to end so they can resume supply and profit. trump appears more concerned about his oil than the mounting death toll.

    Makes me wonder if the world will change so much during lock down that some industries will be even more motivated to step away from oil. The clean air must be noticeable and enjoyable in the larger cities and centres of industry at present.

    • dv 3.1

      And by the time the election come along, the death rate will have dropped a little and Trump will take the credit!!!

      • Cinny 3.1.1

        You know it. It's what the fuckery at it's highest level.

      • alwyn 3.1.2

        Can you tell me any country in the world where, if such a decline were to take place, the Government won't try and claim the credit?

        Deserved or undeserved.

        • dv

          I missed the word justified.

          • alwyn

            The only place I can see to fit the word "justified" into that sentence and keep it grammatically sensible is immediately before the word "credit".

            That would mean that you are saying that "Trump will take the justified credit".

            Please tell me you are joking. Surely you mean that you missed out the words "try and" after "Trump will" rather than the word "justified" before "credit"

    • bill 3.2

      Reminds me of how the CCP first dealt with the situation, misleading the public via a lack of accurate information.

      You saying that the Chinese government/authorities had information, but misled their own public, and by extension, the citizens and governments of other countries around the world?

      I'd like a link to be provided if that's what your saying – a proper link mind. Not one that's just "official" lines being boosted by a stenographer. Or is your assertion based on you yourself having been taken in by the various stenographers who've been touting the bullshit fed to them by well placed political actors with agendas to push?

      • Cinny 3.2.1

        Sure no problemo 🙂

        It's the first story up.. approx 12 minutes long.


        Here’s the youtube link if you prefer

        • Forget now

          Al-Jazeera & Chapo trap house? Okay, perhaps not particularly well placed; but certainly having "agendas to push".

          China's response was admittedly more focused on results than words. But then, not reading any of their languages, I can't give much perspective on what they said. Here's what they did:


          • Cinny

            China was always focused on controlling the narrative. They expelled foreign journalists when the virus first broke out.

            What is 'chapo trap house', you lost me there.

            • Forget now

              Cinny, you changed your second YouTube link from that (also available at Morrissey's @ comment 5) to the Al Jazeera one currently in your comment. Feigning ignorance does you no credit.

              Is any government not focused on controlling the narrative (even those incompetent at it are at least trying)? Not saying I agree with the Chinese dictatorship on much, but their prompt actions have saved a lot of lives.

              • The Al1en

                I clicked to read Cinny's post as soon as it came on the main feed and can see no edits made since.

                • Forget now

                  TA, hmmmm; perhaps I am mistaken then, but that is what I saw at the time I started typing my comment (too busy at the end wrestling with pasting links on a mobile to go back and confirm).

                  Morrissey, I am not disparaging CTH, nor Al Jazeera for that matter. Just saying that they wouldn't be my choice for an apolitical voice (if such a thing is even possible).

                  Though re-reading Bill's initial request, you could argue that they are not stenographers because it is not a print medium. That is a bit flimsy though.

            • Morrissey

              Chapo Trap House is three or four very sharp, literate guys—sometimes there are women with them—who critique various aspects of American life. They're learned, and they're funny. The program comes out of Chicago.

        • bill

          I gave your link a quick run through.

          k – It begins with an unsubstantiated claim that a government spokesperson told journalists to stop reporting that covid started in China. That may or may not be true, and if true, may or may not be reasonable depending on context. But we're just to take the bald statement at face value and apply it to whatever context we'd prefer to imagine.

          And first up we have Steve Tsang of SOAS. Look up the School of Oriental and African Studies – in particular, their approach to regime change, and then tell me why they wouldn't indulge in a bit of mud slinging when it comes to China.

          Shelley Zhang (China Uncensored), helpfully informs the audience that there are conspiracy theories about the US unleashing the virus in China, suggesting that was what the previous interviewee (Liu Xin) had claimed. She hadn't.

          And social media conspiracies are not government narratives. (jist sayin)

          But if the Chinese government is to be lambasted for lack of censorship, as per Shelley Zhang's angle….

          And officials having twitter accounts is somehow nefarious?!

          Next up – Human Rights Watch. Do I really have to say anything about a supposed human rights org that champs at the bit to have the US impose sanctions on countries (eg – Nicaragua). Anyway. SO there is a lot of very bad things going on in China that we don't know about "because China and censorship". (That's Yaqiu Wang's basic line)

          I guess we're not meant to notice the contradiction between her damning take on Chinese censorship and Shelley Zhangs damning take on Chinese censorship.

          Steve Tsang comes back in at the 8min mark with a very good observation on what "swamping media" with a particular narrative does. (I'll leave that hanging, aye?)

          lol – and the whole thing concludes by highlighting multiple examples of western racism being aimed at China, that are to be excused because "accidental" and anyway, China is exploiting that racism (which is a far worse thing) and Chinese authorities told lies at the outset of the pandemic. (Not one example given)

        • Sanctuary

          This guy is usually on the money as well – the racism of the Chinese towards foreigners exposed in this video is very disturbing.


          • bill

            Xenophobic cunt peddles hate. Twat with access to a blog’s comments section who lacks functioning grey matter, posts it because "on the money". Says a lot for said twat.

            • Robert Guyton

              I'm with Bill, 100%

              • Forget now

                I am 0% with anyone who feels entitled to spew forth "cunt" or "twat" as terms of abuse.

                Even if Bill's right, he's still in the wrong. At least; in so far as choosing conversational strategies that might persuade others.

            • RedLogix

              Xenophobic cunt peddles hate.

              You are totally wrong on this. My own adopted chinese son first pointed me to Winston about five years ago. He was keen to improve his English and to show me more about China, and his videos were an excellent common ground for us to talk about. I’ve probably watched several hundred hours of his material since then …

              Winston left SA about a decade ago and moved to China, and fell in love with the place … up until about the point where Xi Xinping made himself the lifetime ruler with more absolute power than even the emperors of the old dynasties.

              • bill

                Best not pay attention to my lying fucking eyes then Red, aye? (Actually "ears" in this instance, but y'know…)

                • RedLogix

                  Pretty much.

                  Look I'm not trying to point score or make a dick of myself here. Just conveying that there is way more to Winston that what you are seeing.

                  • adam

                    But you have to admit that winston went down the rabbit hole of hating on China, and in return has got paid well for it.

                    I agree some of his early videos were really good, and a great for talking points when communicating with activist in china. But about a year ago he went off the wagon, and really pushed the whole anti-china line.

      • pat 3.2.2

        For an anti Chinese perspective you need travel no further than to Newsroom…unpleasantly surprising, but then a crisis tends to accentuate things.


        • Sanctuary

          The Chinese government and way of doing things is an existential threat to our freedom. If you don't like that being pointed out then that just makes you one more useful idiot.

          • pat

            "The Chinese government and way of doing things is an existential threat to our freedom."

            …except that wasnt what the article covered

          • bill

            The Chinese government and way of doing things is an existential threat to our freedom. If you don't like that being pointed out …

            Explain how that's so? Is the Brazilian government and way of doing things an existential threat to "our freedom" too? If not, why not? What about the US government and way of doing things? Are they a threat?

            When was the last time China invaded another country or embarked on any kind of empire building?

            China doesn't insist a government receiving investment or aid adopt preferred modes of governance. Can the same be said for those that push for western corporations to gain access to various markets?

            And anyway. What makes you think "we" have freedom? (You never heard of wage slavery? Never experienced it?)

            • Forget now


              Empire building like the literal building of Islands onto reefs in the South China sea? Or do you want to go back to the occupation of Tibet and Uighurstan/ Xinjiang?

              • bill

                Hey. That land reclamation is fucking horrible, but "empire building" it ain't.

                Tibet was arguably always within China. Pretty sure the present Dalai Lama, as per tradition, sought permission of Chinese authorities before assuming his position.

                So, when was Uyghurstan invaded then?

                • Forget now

                  Do your own research, Bill.

                  Though admittedly the name is a fairly modern development. East Turkestan (which arguably existed to 1949) and the Dzunger khanate may be more fruitful search terms.

                  I am quite capable of arguing the contrary that Tibet was not always a part of China. With copious references and really pedantic detail. But even with so much free time on my hands I just can't be bothered in the face of your willful ignorance.

                  • RedLogix

                    Not well known but the Turkic people originate from what we now think of as Northern China. It's the Han who have encroached on their ancestoral lands.

                    As a people they wandered far over the Asia steppes and indeed one group, the Seljuks, are the group who founded what we now think of as modern Turkey.

        • bill

          Jesus fucking wept. Just the first two lines of that are enough. And here's the thing – if China didn't communicate with the rest of the world (though, oddly, the WHO was notified and virologists everywhere seemed to be pretty well informed), then why is it that a good clutch of Asian countries managed to get out in front of the virus?

          Hmm. Maybe it's an Asian wide conspiracy against white westerners? 🙂

    • Treetop 3.3

      Trump only wants to promote Trump.

      Dangerous when a leader is not dealing with a serious issue openly.

      He rambles with his press conferences and not enough substance.

  4. ianmac 4

    "…precision fermentation, which promises to produce clean meat in a way that might leave conventional US feedlot agriculture out in the cold."

    …Essentially this would be real meat, produced without the need to raise and slaughter the animal. You could have production facilities on the outside of town and that's it. – David Slack

    That is I take it non-animal meat. We tried some such meat in a home made hamburger. Couldn't tell the difference so is this a realistic future trend.


    • weka 4.1

      Show me the ecological and climate audits on it, and then the economic ones, and I might get interested. But mostly what I see is people looking at using industrial food tech to make profit in the global economy, and none of that is sustainable. It's the same thinking that gave us feedlots in the US, and industrial dairy in NZ.

    • McFlock 4.2

      What about no-meat fillet steak? Hamburgers are mostly sawdust, anyway 🙂

  5. Morrissey 5

    "The unfunny scribblings of octogenarian cranks.” Why right wing cartoonists are not funny

    Brilliant analysis of the American equivalents of our own Daryl Crimp and Garrick Tremain.

  6. Forget now 6

    Headline of the day?


    What is it with the Trumpers and their imaginary friends?

  7. ScottGN 7

    Looks like slide in Trump’s approval numbers has started on fivethirtyeight’s polling aggregator.


  8. Trump on COVID-19 today:

    "The germ has gotten so brilliant that the antibiotic can't keep up with it … there's a whole genius to it … not only is it hidden, but it's very smart."

  9. bill 9

    Somewhere in the past few days I wrote a comment on specific restrictions being drawn up and applied to private jets entering NZ. Today…

    A group of would-be holidaymakers who flew in a private jet from London to the Côte d’Azur in France has been turned back by police.

    Seven men and three women arrived on the chartered aircraft to Marseille-Provence airport, where helicopters were waiting to fly them on to Cannes, where they had rented a luxury villa.

    I confess to knowing nothing about the size of runway required for any particular private jet with the range to get here, the ability to navigate NZ airspace without express permissions, what provincial and private runways there are in NZ, or the spread of customs control.

    What I do know, is that I want all loopholes and avenues for arsewipe entitled fuckers closed tight.

    • RedBaronCV 9.1

      Yes to that. If, fingers crossed we mange to eliminate will there be pressure on us to take high end tourists who are willing to isolate for 14 days and then park themselves here for the next 6 months or so? I don't feel too comfortable with that idea.

      • Treetop 9.1.1

        You mean like when the America's Cup is on?

        When are the super yachts due?

        • Ad

          There's a few scenarios on timing of the race series being modelled at the moment.

          Host countries make most of their multi-millions simply servicing billionaire's boats.

          Regrettably we need them.

          • RedBaronCV

            We don't "need" billionaires they are part of the problem. We could make them part of the solution by charging a stonking great fee for an entry visa ( half a billion each would get everything repaid very quickly

      • Gabby 9.1.2

        Not Peter Thiel though, he's a 'kiwi' after all.

    • RedLogix 9.2

      What I do know, is that I want all loopholes and avenues for arsewipe entitled fuckers closed tight.

      Xenophobic cunt. /sarc

    • Graeme 9.3

      For an airplane that can get to New Zealand from anywhere except eastern Australia you'd need a runway the same as for a domestic jet (A320 or 737). So very hard to do it quietly and without clearance. Air traffic Control and Customs are still active in Queenstown and presumably all the other capable airports in the country.

      • pat 9.3.1

        superyachts on the other hand…..

        • Graeme

          I'd say our navy and airforce are keeping an eye….

          And they'd be well over their 14 day quarantine by the time they got here.

          • Incognito

            Not if they made a stop somewhere on the way here. The rules are clear enough, everybody who arrives at our border must go into quarantine for 14 days.

          • pat

            assuming they declare any illness on board….however im sure its been considered but as the Guardian article demonstrates theres no limit to the level of self entitled some have

          • Poission

            And they'd be well over their 14 day quarantine by the time they got here.

            Not quite


            • Graeme

              Jeez, that's keen. 2 and a bit days at 20kts on foils. Lucky all they hit was a couple of sharks.

              I was more thinking a passage from North America, and you wouldn't be doing it at that intensity.

        • RedLogix

          No. All marine traffic is well monitored. It's very unlikely any vessel could enter any NZ port without permission, even less likely without seriously expensive consequences.

          • pat

            port maybe….lot of coastline in NZ.

            Is not a great concern and as said im sure its in hand but wouldnt be surprised to see a news story about it occurring

        • Treetop

          Or a submarine.

          • alwyn

            Oh dear. Does that mean we have to keep an eye out for stray Japanese and German arrivals. They, after all, had some experience of getting here unaided during WW 2.

    • joe90 9.4

      The four main centres, Palmerston Nth, Ohakea and Queenstown have the 6000 foot runways long-haul flights need to take off..

      • alwyn 9.4.1

        So do Hamilton and Invercargill. They are both a lot longer than Wellington at 2195 m and 2210 m respectively. .

        Hawkes Bay would probably be suitable as well. It is about 50 metres less than Wellington but with anything less than a maximum take off weight it wouldn't seem to be a problem. I have seen what appeared to be quite impressive private jets there.

        Kerikeri and Nelson, along with Whenuapai are also classed as approved for places of first arrival. I could imagine landing at Kerikeri but you would have fun taking off with anything but enough fuel to fly to Auckland I would think.

    • weka 9.5

      I confess to knowing nothing about the size of runway required for any particular private jet with the range to get here, the ability to navigate NZ airspace without express permissions, what provincial and private runways there are in NZ, or the spread of customs control.

      I'm going to *guess that it's not legal to fly into NZ without permission and that any such flight would be picked up by normal aviation radar. This might well be different in Europe, which has been operating relatively open borders between European countries before covid.

      • alwyn 9.5.1

        I don't know about radar picking planes up normally. I doubt if we operate military radar routinely and I understand that the civilian equipment used for air traffic control isn't really radar at all. It picks up the signal from equipment on the plane which broadcasts its id and location. If the transponder is off the plane is, I believe, essentially invisible.

        Military radar sends out a signal and picks up a reflection. It is looking for things that don't want to be found.

        You aren't going to remain that way if you were to land, unexpectedly, at any airport with a big enough runway, and I wouldn't think you could take off again.

        Imagine if we then seized the plane? Jeff Bezos' private jet, which sat on the tarmac at Wellington for some days a couple of months ago was apparently worth about $100 million NZ dollars.

        Anybody out there with a proper knowledge of how Air Traffic Control works? My statements are merely the limited knowledge of an interested layman and might just be rubbish.

        • KJT

          http://www.ufocusnz.org.nz/content/RADAR-as-used-by-Air-Traffic-Control/76.aspx Not the most reliable reference but they do describe the NZ system, briefly.

          Not sure how far along they are on the changeover, but primary radar is a still used as backup in the main airports at least, as far as I'm aware.

          I’m sure the military are able to spot all traffic around New Zealand, by satellite or radar.

          In New Zealand it is fairly difficult for boats to sneak around without being spotted on radar or visually by commercial fisherman, local ships or coastal residents. As a group of French terrorists found out. And our own Navy, when they were trying to sneak around without lights for an exercise.

          People tell on you very quickly, if you forget to turn the AIS on.

          • RedLogix

            Yeah. Ordinary cruisers are going nowhere right now, and the superyachts mentioned above are way too visible and expensive to risk on a madcap unauthorised venture to NZ.

            What could happen though is the invention of these now makes it theoretically possible for relatively unseaworthy vessels to survive very bad weather. What would have been a suicide trip across the Tasman becomes a different proposition if you can throw one of these over the stern.

            Maybe the first unexpected visitors will be people smugglers using crappy boats on one-way trips.

          • alwyn


            Thank you. Your link does explain, rather more clearly that I did, what I thought was the case. I see it was dated 2010 so they might have got rid of the Primary Radar by now.

            I got interested in the subject when that MH370 flight vanished and is thought to have finally crashed off WA. When the transponder was turned off it was totally lost to the Air Traffic Control system. The only reason they knew it had turned to the SW was that a military radar happened to pick it up, quite unintentionally.

            • KJT

              I was very surprised by that.

              Commercial ships have had AIS, for some time now. Though it is only more recently that it could be tracked by satellite further off the coast. AIS, can, of course be turned off.

              Haven't sailed in a commercial ship without an almost constantly transmitting satellite, here I am, for piracy prevention, for a long time. If it stops for any reason you get an instant "how are you" from the monitoring company.

              So. I was rather surprised they were still able to lose a commercial aircraft.

  10. Incognito 10

    Offering a unique perspective on what’s going on the planet.

    Meir said it will be difficult not being able to hug family and friends, after seven months off the planet. She anticipates feeling even more isolated on Earth than in space.


  11. SPC 11

    The sort of ideas, for taking our governance to the right, that our media will be publishing from now on.


    From their social and cultural commentator no less.

  12. Morrissey 12

    Kim Hill slurred James K. Baxter at the end of her program today RNZ National, Saturday 11 April 2020, 11:59 a.m.

    Kim Hill can be excellent. One of the highlights of recent New Zealand broadcasting history is her 2004 confrontation with an unspeakably vile shill for the destruction of Iraq. [1] However, she has also proved to be alarmingly susceptible to sleazy propagandists. In 2013 she listened without demur to Alex Gibney pouring filth on the reputation of Julian Assange. [2] Along with such naïfs as John Campbell, Jesse Mulligan and Bernard Hickey, she has been one of this country's leading conduits of the Russiagate nonsense, repeatedly (and respectfully) interviewing the discredited Grauniad hack Luke Harding, even after the exposure of his lie about Paul Manafort having secret talks with Julian Assange. [3] She is, for all her talent, likely to at any time recycle the most egregious neocon talking points. [4]

    This susceptibility to orthodox narratives, otherwise known as "groupthink", reared its head again this morning right at the end of her brief talk about poetry with Greg O'Brien. She mentioned Allen Curnow and James K. Baxter, and then added that they were "not noted for their enlightened attitudes to women." The program had finished, so Greg O'Brien had no time to respond to this absurd and unfair provocation.

    So James K. Baxter is now a target of vilification from RNZ National's woke gliberati, along with certain American pop singers. [5] Kim Hill has a reputation, not entirely deserved, of being a voracious reader. It seems that she has not read much, or any, of James K. Baxter's beautiful, humane and compassionate poetry.

    [1] https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2018/01/william-shawcross-explodes-in-rage-at.html

    [2] https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2017/12/the-hatchet-man-speaks-alex-gibney.html

    [3] https://theintercept.com/2019/01/02/five-weeks-after-the-guardians-viral-blockbuster-assangemanafort-scoop-no-evidence-has-emerged-just-stonewalling/

    [4] https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2019/05/kim-hill-spouts-braindead-neocon.html

    [5] https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2019/07/yadana-saw-nervously-transgresses-fatwa.html

    • observer 12.1

      "It seems that she has not read much, or any, of James K. Baxter's beautiful, humane and compassionate poetry."

      1) And how would you possibly know that? Or what other books Kim Hill reads.

      2) History is full of great poets, artists and people of genius whose private lives were less than exemplary. The quality of art is not measured by the character of the artist.

      That is a strange comment.

      • Morrissey 12.1.1

        And how would you possibly know that?

        By her breathtakingly wrong and ignorant comment about James K. Baxter..

        Or what other books Kim Hill reads.

        She reads a lot, but not with a great deal of discrimination, going by her championing of such scurrilous, dishonest and foolish writers as Luke Harding, Jonathan Freedland and Simon Schama.

        History is full of great poets, artists and people of genius whose private lives were less than exemplary.

        What evidence do you have that Baxter's private life was like that? Certainly Kim Hill does not have any.

        • weka

          Yeah, she does. It's not a secret, perhaps your own reading has been lacking.


          • weka

            a ten second google would have told you what the back up to Hill's statement is.

            • Morrissey

              A ten second Google to a hipster site. That's impressive scholarship.

              • Incognito

                I never held you for an arrogant snob, but here it is …

                • Morrissey

                  Sorry? Could you explain that comment? surprise

                  • Incognito

                    Sure, I can.

                    You display clear signs of arrogant snobbery with your snide remarks at Kim Hill and weka, for example.

                    You shoot the messenger/source without engaging in good faith.

                    You can’t stand being challenged and told you might be wrong.

                    And you continue your intellectual self-wankery link-whoring to your own site.

                    If you have something to say on this site, say it. Don’t link to what you can say here. If it is relevant to the topic and debate here, say it, and otherwise leave it.

                    Lastly, you have a habit of not responding to Moderator notes so I’ve spelled it out for you here in regular font.

                    I trust this explanation suffices.

                    Have a nice day.

                    PS: I see that you’ve copped a short ban this time. Better luck next time 😉

              • weka

                just so you know, your comment here is also part of the ban. Unlike you, I'm well read on Baxter’s letter about raping his wife, and contemporary analysis of what it means. Like I said, ten seconds would have given you the context of Kim Hill's comment, and you could then have addressed her comment in context, instead of all the denialist, avoidance bullshit. Don't read the Spinoff if you don't like, there's plenty elsewhere been written about this.

              • Carolyn_Nth

                What Baxter's great grandson, Jack McDonald had to say about Baxter, writing about his Nana, Jacqui Sturm, who is the woman Baxter alleged he raped – in that "hipster site".

                The Letters cast light on the deeply patriarchal and misogynistic reality that Nana lived, and give more context to her work, particularly her early short stories in The House of the Talking Cat.

                I first started learning about just how hard my Nana’s life was when she went into hospital for heart problems while I was teenager. Her elder sister Evadne was down to visit, and as her and I walked around the hospital gardens I remember she told me how Nana would find out about Baxter’s illegitimate children in the press.

                It was very patriarchal times, and marital rape was not against the law.

    • Gabby 12.2

      Bad news for you Morry, Crumpie was a thug of the first order.

      • Morrissey 12.2.1

        There is plenty of evidence that Crump was. There is evidence that Baxter spoke in a boastful macho manner in his letters, but that's merely a thought crime.

      • RedLogix 12.2.2

        Crumpie was a complex character; yes he had a thuggish aspect to him, but to reduce him to just that is a lazy, dishonest gambit.

        • Morrissey

          There's evidence against Crump; there's none against Baxter. Unless one adopts the Stalinist idea of holding people's most private and ridiculous fantasies and their foolish private letters against them and constituting them as actual crimes.

          • RedLogix

            I agree with you, but given that none of us could stand having our private lives opened for public scrutiny and mockery … I'm inclined to hold back from throwing stones.

            Let's put it this way, Crump led a rough life and could be a rough bugger at times … but then someone who can write Wildpork and Watercress is no mere thug. I met him a handful of times in the 80's while he was living with Robin Lee Robinson in the Opotiki back country and found him one of those people that wasn't going to warm to strangers quickly, but he was clearly an intelligent and interesting person.

            I would say that he was very much a man of his generation and circumstances, and in many ways he'd made the most of his life, despite many missteps along the way. Probably more than most of us can say.

        • Gabby

          To imply someone is lazy and dishonest is fuckwitted and shitstained trollery, but you'd have learned that in your years in Russia no doubt.

          • RedLogix

            See my comment at 2.54pm. Maybe actually knowing the man means I'm a bit biased …

    • weka 12.3

      Baxter was a rapist. Which Hill would know. Her statement "not noted for their enlightened attitudes to women" in regards to Baxter is sound.


      It's a source of grief to the people who adore Baxter's poetry.

      • Morrissey 12.3.1

        No surprise to see you construe some crude and insensitive written words into an actual crime.

        [off you go, 3 day ban. I have zero interest in another round of bullshit from you Morrissey, over what constitutes evidence in political debate. I’m also not going to let someone run rape apology lines at this time. My suggestion when you get back is to address the points and make political arguments, work within the culture of TS around claims and back up, and don’t do all the slurs, because I am over it – weka]

        [second mod note. It appears that your original comment about KH said and when the programme ended was in fact bullshit, see observer’s comment below. You’ve been pulled up on this a number of times in the past and you still don’t seem to have learned. I’m making note in the back end, so that if you do this again it can be taken into account in moderation. This falls clearly into pattern of behaviour stuff, and I’m not willing to cut you slack on it any more. If you continue expect more bans at no notice – weka]

    • observer 12.4

      For the record, this statement by Morrissey is false:

      "The program had finished, so Greg O'Brien had no time to respond to this absurd and unfair provocation."

      It had not finished, and he had time to speak further, and he did. Listen below if you wish:

      Kim Hill: link to RNZ audio

      [link changed to specific segment – weka]

      • weka 12.4.1

        thanks. Morrissey is just lucky I didn't see that before I modded, but will make a note in the back end.

  13. adam 13

    In the meantime, the economy keeps going to hell in a handbasket and no one is pointing finger to the corporations who have proven to be bloody useless.

    Stock buybacks, gotta love how capitalism eats itself.


  14. joe90 14

    An iron law of conservatism; you only give a rats when you and yours' are affected. Pricks.

  15. Smokescreen 15

    I was disgusted to learn that some Chinese in New Zealand (and Australia) have organised themselves into buying groups and are buying in bulk and shipping essential products such as facemasks and other protective equipment back to China. (https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/120927408/new-zealanders-caught-short-after-masks-sent-to-china)

    Surely this has got to stop – many of these products are urgently needed in this country for frontline medical staff and other essential workers, as well as the general public. I have to question where the allegience of these Chinese lies? New Zealand or China?

    The Government just step in and stop this now.

    • RedLogix 15.1

      Perhaps we should insist delivery of said 'goods' must be done in person.devil

      • Francesca 15.1.1

        Probably more than balanced out by those high rolling NZers using their contacts in China to send over eye watering numbers of masks and gowns to NZ…because they couldn't wait for the Govt.

        Does that outrage you ?

        • RedLogix

          My suggestion above in no way rules 'high rolling NZ'ers' of any ethnicity out from the same consideration … . Besides hasn’t China eradicated this virus? And aren’t they exporting this same equipment to the rest of the world en mass? Why are they importing anything of this nature from NZ?

          I scarcely think I was doing the 'outrage' thing. One of the big consequences of this event, on a global scale is the deep erosion of trust going on right now. Italy is furious that Germany won't supply essential medical equipment, and everyone is in despair that the US states are all outbidding everyone else.

          It's an eye watering mess.

        • Bruce

          Good to see it was money well spent, if this is what they got.


        • halfcrown

          I am sure the "high rollers using their contacts in China to send over eye watering numbers" did not expect it to be shipped out of NZ back to China by the Chinese.

          Also, have a look what's happening in OZ, Would not be at all surprised that happens here as well.


    • weka 15.2

      Some of that counts as aid imo. If gear was being shipped to China for medical staff who were running short, I don't have too much of a problem with that.

      Supply lines definitely need to be sorted out, but we still have ethical international obligations. The Stuff article could have done a better job explaining what is going on instead of leading with a headline that will play into NZ anti-Chinese prejudice.

    • patricia 15.3

      This happened in Australia, and the group were jailed.

    • Gabby 15.4

      Would it have to stop if they were poms?

  16. joe90 16

    Disaster capitalists clip the ticket both ways.

    Trade data suggest that U.S. exports of medical supplies surged when the administration should have been preparing for a domestic coronavirus outbreak, according to a new report by Rep. Katie Porter (D-CA).

    “In February 2020, the value of U.S. mask exports to China was 1094.0% higher than the 2019 monthly average,” Porter’s report said. “In February 2020, the value of U.S ventilator exports to China was 292.2% higher than the 2019 monthly average.”

    The report, which was released Monday, pointed to specific Trump administration policies — rather than just a general increase in foreign demand due to the spread of COVID-19 abroad — as being a potential reason for the spike in export value. The New York Times reported in early March that the Commerce Department was touting a temporary change in regulations that facilitated exports of medical supplies to China by American vendors.

    “Whether export numbers reflect increased per-unit costs for Chinese buyers, or an increase in units sold, the bottom line is the same: a payday for a few companies, and huge costs for the rest of us,” Porter’s report said.


  17. Robert Guyton 17

    "One shouldn’t interrupt silence unless one has something beautiful or meaningful to say."



    [permalink added – weka]

  18. joe90 19



    • weka 19.1

      wow, very good.

      Is that true, that if the companies fail, the workers are ok?

      • pat 19.1.1

        yes and no….a lot of jobs still go and some companies disappear forever…and of course a lot of investors lose (perhaps only some of) their money, which may include the likes of your Kiwisaver account..but theoretically thats how markets are supposed to work.

        what hes saying…the workers are losing their jobs anyway so why is the gov saving the investor class, they should lose too and have to restart like everyone else.

        What is really interesting is the reporters reaction….kool-aid addict

      • pat 19.1.2

        "President Donald Trump hosted a private conference call Tuesday morning with several billionaire Wall Street and hedge fund titans just hours before the president said he hopes to "have the country opened up" and "get people back to work" by Easter—even as the coronavirus pandemic worsens.

        Among the most prominent executives on the call—which was joined by Vice President Mike Pence—were Ken Griffin, billionaire CEO of Citadel; Stephen Schwarzman, billionaire CEO of the Blackstone Group; and Paul Tudor Jones, billionaire co-founder of Just Capital. The firms represented on the Tuesday morning call collectively manage hundreds of billions of dollars in assets.

        The conversation came as Senate lawmakers and White House negotiators, led by Treasury Secretary and former Goldman Sachs executive Steve Mnuchin, were in the middle of talks over a $2 trillion economic stimulus package that includes $500 billion in taxpayer bailout funds for large corporations—and, though not widely reported, trillions more in a lending program backed by the Federal Reserve."


  19. Macro 20

    Well this is all going to end well I'm sure.

    52% of Americans under 45 have lost their job, been placed on leave, or had their hours cut. Overall, 33% have already lost their job, been furloughed, or had their hours reduced, with 41% of those already reporting having trouble covering basic costs. (Data For Progress)

    • Ad 20.1

      That is a seriously miserable thing to read .

      Do we have similar statistics refreshed here?

      • Sabine 20.1.1

        It was projected from the onset.

        And if we don't have a decent plan for coming out of phase 4 into 3 or two then it will be the same here.

        If it is not already and the only thing that is masking it over for now is the government paying the wage subsidy.

        I however now that if i open up again, it will be just me. I do not believe that there is enough money left in the community to spend, and without people spending businesses like mine don't need staff.

        Lets hope that they have a good plan and lets hope that they start talking about this sooner then later. Unless of course they gonna keep us in confinement for another several weeks. But then who knows what will happen then.

  20. Ad 21

    If I don't get a haircut soon I'm going to punch a hole in the wall.

    • Barfly 21.1

      Old balding guy bought hair trimmer years ago and happily goes for a number zero cut…nice clean and saves a pile of dosh for this penurious individual.

    • Forget now 21.2

      That's some Dr Seuss level hair growth you have going on there Ad!

      • Ad 21.2.1

        Very much like The Cat In The Hat right now.

        Or maybe I could cover it with one of The 500 Hats of Bartholemew Cubbins

    • Gabby 21.3

      For fucksake.

  21. Barfly 22


    I wonder if Katherine Rich will be lobbying Again to ensure more kiwi babies are born with birth defects.

    I hope you burn in hell Katherine devil

  22. joe90 23

    Things totalitarians can get away while the world is busy with an emergency.

    There is a riot in the colony. Relatives report that the prisoners are shot from machine guns and poisoned with gas. The GUFSIN press service reports that the riot has been suppressed, while photos of the burning colony are published on social networks. Convicts call relatives with tears and ask for help. There are corpses.


  23. joe90 24

    Tough but fair.

    They are very loud, these Never Trumpers, and have been gifted enormous mainstream media platforms and, by golly, they are just full of Righteous Indignation about how OMFG can you believe that these "Trumpers" keep supporting their Dear Leader even though he lies to them every day! And OMFG, why are Trump Republicans in congress such fucking cowards! And OMFG, Fox News and Rush Limbaugh!!

    And OMFG, this is not the Republican Party I was a part of!!

    Except it definitely is.

    And how do I know this?


    And so, in keeping with this Easter season, I am resurrecting this post which I published on April 9, 2005. 15 years ago this week. Back during my very earliest days as a blogger.

    First, Wingnuts clearly hate America as passionately as any Taliban. They hate the plurality of it, the tolerance, the check-and-balance crap that deters them from curb-stomping gays and Liberals and “the coloreds” whenever they fucking well feel like it. They’re delighted with the notion of a fascist America (as long as they are the one’s holding the machine guns) and are practically kicking the back seats of the Big Republican Bus asking Bush over and over, “Are We There Yet!?”

    They adore the idea of a Strong Man lining up the degenerates and mowing them down in Slow Motion on Pay-Per-View. They jizz over their chubby, pink feet at the thought of stadia full of smart-ass “humanists” being tasered into “sounding off that you luv the Virgin Mary” and mass graves full of dead feminists. Their head’s are open sewers swirling with happy masturbatory blood-thoughts of beating their betters to jelly, raping their women, and having an Approving Christian Father in the White House who smiles munificently on their carnage.

    It is the eternal dream of the weak, the cowardly, the stupid and the impotent.


  24. joe90 25


  25. adam 27

    Oh look biden just got outmaneuvered on the left by trump.


    Yeap this is going to a depressing election, the only winner will be wallstreet.

    • joe90 27.1

      Only if the cultists swallow the ratfucker's lies and stay home.

      • adam 27.1.1




        Blaming the voter – yeah that worked out well last time.

        How about offering policy to win their vote,

        Nah much simpler to abuse voters.

        • McFlock

          True dat. If the 100k-quarter million dead policy doesn't get their vote, the student loan thing will. Biden's clearly on the rocks.

          • Forget now

            I am not convinced that the USAn election won't be cancelled due to national emergency if Trump is polling poorly. He needs his rallies (both to stroke his ego and energise his base).

            However, it is a pretty unispiring choice between two; right-wing septagenarian white male sexual predators (alleged). The allowing maybe a hundred thousand extra (compared to other country's death rates adjusted for population) of your citizens to die due to pigheaded selfishness has got to count against Trump though. Surely?

            • McFlock

              I mean, who the fuck knows anymore? By November he might have them arguing that covid-19 was a lie invented by the rest of the world because the globe hates how awesome he is.

        • Gabby

          50% of people are kinda dumb, and redistricting has ensured that well under 50% will keep the reblububiblubs in office in key states.

    • Andre 27.2

      adam, always the sucker for the Lyin' King's con jobs. Still haven't learned to look for the fish-hooks and the bait and switch.

      For lower income people in the US, student loan repayments are income-linked. So when those people lose income, their repayments drop or go away automatically. Hence, any possible benefits from this deferment flow to higher income people, not to those most in need of it.

      Furthermore, it's deferment, not forgiveness. You do understand the difference, don't you?

      The free coronavirus care thing has yet to be implemented, and has actually gone awfully quiet over the past week. You still haven't learned that Sith Lard says a lot of stuff he has no intention of following up on and never does?

      That story is from mid-March. Dunno why you think an unfunny useful idiot's ramblings are news when they are three weeks after the fact.

  26. Eco Maori 29

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    Global cooperation is needed with the virus problems.

    Ka kite Ano

  27. Eco Maori 30

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    One reason Tangata Whenua and Pacifica tangata have not been infected by the virus is because most of us are broke not enough putea to go for a Holiday in Aotearoa and overseas.

    O I got it wrong Iwi ba it was Whangarei Iwi that were meetings there neighbours Ka pai.

    Ka kite Ano

  28. Eco Maori 31

    Kia Ora The Am Show.

    Its obvious not to have any information on a video conference that people can use to hack your organisation.

    Aotearoa should be in a better situation than most.

    You guys are so negative are you sure you know witch country you live in.

    That's A awesome video we take so much from Papatuanuku and give so little back now would be a good time to give back to our Wild environment.

    Ka kite Ano

  29. Eco Maori 32

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    Kia Kaha people our government is doing a good job of sorting the problems associated with the virus isolation issues .

    Ka kite Ano.

  30. Eco Maori 33

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    That would be good our government working with Iwi to come up with concrete plans to create employment for tangata.

    Ka kite Ano

  31. Eco Maori 34

    Kia Ora The Am Show.

    The online and TV education resource starts today our mokopuna will be using them.

    That's correct Amanda don't jump to fast.

    There you go our health systems have been neglected for the last 20 years the trickle up effect.

    That's is cool the Young Ocean explorers educating children on our Ocean its time to clean them up

    Ka kite Ano

  32. Eco Maori 35

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    The fake news some people will believe anything with out thinking it through logically.

    I had a hunch that most countries that are doing OK with the virus have Wahine leading the way.

    Ka kite Ano.

  33. Eco Maori 36

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    I think our government will help Maori business better than most other government.

    Good on Neatmeat for koha of pork bone to Tangata.

    Kia Kaha to all the people in the music industry.

    That's a awesome idea the Cook Islands government helping there tangata grow vegetables.

    Ka kite Ano

  34. Eco Maori 37

    Kia Ora The Am Show.

    I was wondering were you were Lloyd.

    I've got a peace of tape on my camera.

    The Phenomenon is our scientists have underestimate the effects of Global Warming because the deniers have had a very $$ loud cry.

    I think that people do need a few days notice of what level 3 lock down is going to be so they can plan.

    The business tax loss write off will help small businesses.

    Ka kite Ano.

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