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Open mike 11/09/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 11th, 2020 - 130 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

130 comments on “Open mike 11/09/2020 ”

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    • Ad 1.2
      11 September 2020 at 7:46 am

      Best Bond girl ever.

      And an excellent baddie on Game of Thrones.

      • Stuart Munro 1.2.1
        11 September 2020 at 8:01 am

        I think she was a better feminist role model than most too.

        Sure she was sexy and seemed deadly – but she was always smart as a whip, in a time when a lot of actresses just made tea for the male leads.

    • Molly 1.3
      11 September 2020 at 8:40 am

      Most recently enjoyed watching her on Detectorists, playing mother to her real life daughter, Rachael Stirling.

      Good role, could have been a typical Mother In Law beat up, but well written and well played, with genuine affection and warmth apparent within the irritation.

    • Austringer 1.4
      11 September 2020 at 5:57 pm

      What a woman!.

  2. Dennis Frank 2
    11 September 2020 at 8:00 am

    Tim Watkin isn't impressed by the party he usually supports. https://www.pundit.co.nz/content/labours-tax-trauma-victims-and-how-they-might-help-the-greens

    looks like Ardern and Robertson are tax trauma victims. Having seen John Key and Bill English wipe out Helen Clark and Michael Cullen’s 39 percent rate in a single blow and watched Phil Goff, David Shearer, David Cunliffe and Andrew Little all eviscerated by various versions of “show me the money!”, they are now cowered.

    Clark and Cullen’s 39 percent rate cut in at $60,000; around $90,000 in today’s money. Labour this time has brought it in at twice that amount. Sure, they hope to say they succeeded where Goff, Shearer, Cunliffe and Little all failed, but it’s the most pyrrhic of victories. It’s estimated to bring in a measly $550m a year. Robertson said that would go into health, education and covid debt.

    That’s nonsense. That amount will buy you today a sum total of one week’s worth of wage subsidy. Yep, one week. The government budgeted $50 billion to save the economy this year; half a billion achieves next to nothing in that context.

    Then he alerts us to a potential upside for the Greens:

    I suspect this position does the Greens some favours. This tax timidity gives space the Greens can exploit to Labour’s left, arguing they are the only voice for change that has a chance of being in government after this election.

    So we will wait & see if all those lower-class folk the Greens are trying to represent will actually get up and vote for them! It could even be remotely possible that Grant & Ardern have ditched them for precisely that reason – to measure the numbers of losers who are willing to participate in democracy. A social science experiment.

    • Stuart Munro 2.1
      11 September 2020 at 8:03 am

      "they are now cowered"

      That's cowed Watkin, you illiterate bumpkin.

      • Dennis Frank 2.1.1
        11 September 2020 at 9:07 am

        That's cowed Watkin, you illiterate bumpkin.

        Yeah, he did write cowered, as quoted. If commentators such as myself adopted a policy of refusing to quote illiteracy, how could we quote msm journalists?? You set too high a bar for contemporary society, Stuart.

        There's also the fact that cowering often shows up. Which tends to suggest that past tense usage does actually have grammatical logic…

        • Stuart Munro 2.1.1.1
          11 September 2020 at 9:51 am

          Old ESL teacher – couldn't help myself 😉 I miss the effect of subediting.

          You're right about the logic though.

          • McFlock 2.1.1.1.1
            11 September 2020 at 2:20 pm

            A funny ESL story came from a cop – a witness to the crime had english as a second language.

            In court, the defense lawyer asked the witness how they came to be at the scene. "I was proceeding into town to do some shopping, and as I proceeded down the street towards the corner I saw that man proceeding to hit the other man". The lawyer's ears pricked up:

            "Mr X, for how long have you been learning english?"

            "Ever since I came to New Zealand, a year".

            "And yet you use words like 'proceeding'"? [lawyer glances meaningfully at cop who took the witness statement]

            "Yes, we learned it last week in language class and I use new words as much as I can".

            Defendant found guilty.

            lol

        • Incognito 2.1.1.2
          11 September 2020 at 10:12 am

          It is quite simple, Watkin, use [sic] in the quote.

      • mauī 2.1.2
        11 September 2020 at 11:16 am

        Indeed, stuning odiousity from Watkin their.

      • AB 2.1.3
        11 September 2020 at 11:38 am

        If the cowed cower, are they cowards?

    • Barfly 2.2
      11 September 2020 at 8:19 am

      "lower-class folk"……

      "numbers of losers who are"

      Go stuff yourself angry

      • Dennis Frank 2.2.1
        11 September 2020 at 9:09 am

        Ought I to apologise for usage of marxist class analysis here? Nope. How about the lingo of the land? Nope. Therefore I'll remain unstuffed…

        • Sabine 2.2.1.1
          11 September 2020 at 9:44 am

          seriously Dennis, i read what you said, and these insults were literally just bashing down to the working poor, dis-regarded poor on the benefit and the even less regarded poor that have given up on work and on Winz.

          Fact is the non voters that i know are well to do white people sitting in nice and expensive houses in Auckland who can't even be bothered to vote for their children, cause "Non of hte parties do anything for me' and fact is also that if the highly paid critters that screw us over year by year can get to 'abstain' from voting then people can get also to 'abstain' from rubber stamping another government that gives about as much of fuck as hte previous one.

          You want better participation in the rubber stamping model of democracy we have then maybe get better people in to the parties that you and others so support here.

          • Dennis Frank 2.2.1.1.1
            11 September 2020 at 10:36 am

            No I don't want them to endorse representative democracy. The concept hasn't seemed even remotely valid during my lifetime.

            Their freedom to choose will determine the outcome. The interesting bit is whether the Greens get voter support for the wealth tax or not. The election result will measure that. Let's await the verdict of the electorate.

            • Sabine 2.2.1.1.1.1
              11 September 2020 at 10:55 am

              yep, and insulting them is what is gonna get you there.

              Maybe call the political parties losers for not giving these people any ANY reason at all to vote.

              And yes, there is about a million + people who don't vote, and you know why? Because they don't have a reason to. Heck, i don't have a reason to vote for any of the current clown brigade trying desperately to hold on their 180.000 NZD plus jobs.

              So don't blame the people, blame the 'elite' for being tone deaf, whimpy, with no guts what so ever to speak of , that think that tinkering on the sides is a vote getter. And that includes the Labour Party, the Green Party, NZFirst, Conservaties, Hannah Tamaki and the Church party and the No mates Party.

              All just in there for a job that they would otherwise not get anywhere in private industry.

              If anything the non voters are the ones who have it correct, 'Non of the above' right now is about the most honest vote anyone could cast.

              but but … judith will be worse. Lol. Fucking lol, that is a vote getter, right?

              Yeah, nah, you just insulted a whole bunch of people who vote. And you were not even funny doing it.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                11 September 2020 at 1:21 pm

                If anything the non voters are the ones who have it correct, 'Non of the above' right now is about the most honest vote anyone could cast.

                The people in power love the non-vote as it means that things don't change.

              • Dennis Frank …
                11 September 2020 at 1:33 pm

                People who don't make a collective effort to play a constructive role in our political system deserve to be called losers. The cap fits them, therefore I will put it firmly on their heads!

                Complain all you like, you can't hide from this reality. You know they've got the numbers to make themselves a substantial political force.

        • Gabby 2.2.1.2
          11 September 2020 at 10:24 am

          No need to apologise for what you are, dizzwiddizz as the yankistanis say.

      • weka 2.2.2
        11 September 2020 at 9:20 am

        DF has a commenting style that tends to be a bit obscure at first read. In this instance I think the comment can be read as sarcasm rather than dissing working and underclass people as losers.

        • Dennis Frank 2.2.2.1
          11 September 2020 at 9:37 am

          Or it can be read as indicating the thinking behind Labour's policy design. Remember Labour politicians are wannabe control-system operatives. As such, they must relegate the role of compassion for sufferers into a less-influential part of their minds. Their political advisors get this.

          The cynicism involved is relative to the individual psyche, but a certain amount of elitism pervades their political culture – likely often in the minds of political commentators who remind us that Labour are middle-class (pseudo)intelligentsia, not the working class reps they were a century ago.

          • weka 2.2.2.1.1
            11 September 2020 at 9:42 am

            You think Labour policy designers think the underclass are losers? I mean I can see how you get there but I doubt Labour would use that framing.

            • Dennis Frank 2.2.2.1.1.1
              11 September 2020 at 10:23 am

              No, it influences them tacitly. Tacit beliefs are known to be more powerful determinants of behaviour than beliefs advocated, usually, because they are habitual. There's an entitlement syndrome, due to social class origins & habitat providing a niche of base support. More evident in the Nats, of course!

              Framing can have a subconscious basis but is usually overt – expressed as design. So the utility factor is more important with framing. What works.

              • weka …
                11 September 2020 at 10:50 am

                unconscious belief in people as losers makes more sense. My point stands. Often your commenting style is not straightforward, and requires additional parsing that many don’t so. I tend to agree with Sabine, it was easy to misread the comment. If you are going to do that kind of convoluted inference, some care is required.

        • Sabine 2.2.2.2
          11 September 2020 at 9:46 am

          yeah, right.

          Maybe next time ad a sarcasm tag here, cause anyone reading this is entitled to their opinion that dear Dennis is another one of these chardoney swoilling liberals/labourites/greens that have nothing but contempt for the ones that are considered the 'essential worker' or 'low wage losers'. /s

      • greywarshark 2.2.3
        11 September 2020 at 9:33 am

        Barfly You are outraged at someone describing what we can see plainly for ourselves? You are too sensitive to be involved in plain discussion about our politics. What makes me anxious is the number of losers out there who are not getting any help with their living standards, to get regular work, medical and hospital treatment when needed etc. They are definitely losing out on the services that wealthier people get partly because they are lower-class folk and haven't learned the ways to improve their lot. No use putting angry faces about it., be abusive for saying what is, that you apparently don't want to know. Don't get angry, get busy trying to help – put the energy of your anger to some useful action to help people at the bottom of the ladder.

        • Sabine 2.2.3.1
          11 September 2020 at 10:14 am

          yeah, how dare he be outraged that some schmuck call people that have been left behind by the system losers for not participating in a system that have left them behind.

          maybe dennis needs to channel his outrage at the non voting loser by working to get them to the polls. I am sure insults work a great deal.

          btw, todays losers were yesterdays 'essential workers'. Just saying.

          • Dennis Frank 2.2.3.1.1
            11 September 2020 at 10:42 am

            I feel no such outrage. Those who refuse to vote for a party that is endeavouring to represent them are understandable, imo. Not rational.

            One must have spent a significant part of one's life in similar oppression to feel for them. I fall into that category. However deep the hole, one always has the choice of trying to climb out. Loser is the term for one who gets defeated by the system and stops trying. It is a technical term only.

            That said, I get your emotional reaction. Emotional intelligence is usually not factored into politics, but it ought to be.

            God helps those who help themselves. Old saying. Losers who refuse to help themselves by voting Green this election deserve the label!

            • JO 2.2.3.1.1.1
              11 September 2020 at 1:10 pm

              However deep the hole, one always has the choice of trying to climb out. Loser is the term for one who gets defeated by the system and stops trying. It is a technical term only.

              And winner is the term for one who gets rewarded by the system and keeps trying to get more. It is a technical term only.

              Technical term only Dennis? Really. Maybe this will help…

              https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/sep/06/michael-sandel-the-populist-backlash-has-been-a-revolt-against-the-tyranny-of-merit

              Sandel is determined to aim a broadside squarely at a left-liberal consensus that has reigned for 30 years. Even a perfect meritocracy, he says, would be a bad thing. “The book tries to show that there is a dark side, a demoralising side to that,” he says. “The implication is that those who do not rise will have no one to blame but themselves.” Centre-left elites abandoned old class loyalties and took on a new role as moralising life-coaches, dedicated to helping working-class individuals shape up to a world in which they were on their own.

              The Tyranny of Merit is the latest salvo in Sandel’s lifelong intellectual struggle against a creeping individualism that, since the Reagan and Thatcher era, has become pervasive in western democracies. “To regard oneself as self-made and self-sufficient. This picture of the self exerts a powerful attraction because it seems on the face of it to be empowering – we can make it on our own, we can make it if we try. It’s a certain picture of freedom but it’s flawed. It leads to a competitive market meritocracy that deepens divides and corrodes solidarity.”

              • Dennis Frank …
                11 September 2020 at 1:27 pm

                I appreciate your link. There's deep thought consequent. Although I've always preferred meritocracy to democracy, I have always opposed the establishment's privilege system of vested interests.

                I've never seen neoliberalism as offering much credible meritocracy: gaming the system when you're competitive and able merely provides personal benefits (perhaps trickling down to partner & family).

                What Money Can’t Buy sealed Sandel’s status as perhaps the most formidable critic of free-market orthodoxy in the English-speaking world. But as an age of violently polarised, partisan and poisonous politics has taken hold, it is that early encounter with Reagan that has begun to play on his mind.

                “It taught me a lot about the importance of the ability to listen attentively,” he says, “which matters as much as the rigours of the argument. It taught me about mutual respect and inclusion in the public square.”

                Consensus politics teaches the same. But only to those who actually do the leg-work of that! It probably remains pie in the sky idealism to all others. So as someone who made it work for the Greens initially, I see those shrill sectarians who now pollute our social ecosystem as exhibitors of shadow narcissism, busy betraying real Greens. I do wish them luck with the wealth tax, though, since it would be a useful corrective…

              • Draco T Bastard …
                11 September 2020 at 1:32 pm

                A book that I've been meaning to read:

                No Contest stands as the definitive critique of competition. Contrary to accepted wisdom, competition is not basic to human nature; it poisons our relationships and holds us back from doing our best. In this new edition, Alfie Kohn argues that the race to win turns all of us into losers.

                More and more the research is showing how capitalism, and the individualism it promotes, fails us.

                • Dennis Frank …
                  11 September 2020 at 4:19 pm

                  Likewise, except that I have owned a paperback of the original edition since the '90s and still not got around to it!

                  I'm comfortable with that since adopting the synthesis frame (competition plus collaboration). I've always been an individualist, so didn't acquire a collectivist self easily, competitive by nature yet keen to collaborate on a credible basis.

                  If you look at it from the perspective of ethos, the competitive ethic is a survival skill (enhancing fitness & merit) plus reputation-building, but the collaborative ethic is likewise. Hunter-gatherers proved their matrix resilient & sustainable and those who proved themselves good at teamwork got enhanced reputations within clan or tribe.

              • Treetop …
                11 September 2020 at 3:52 pm

                Winners never quit and quitters never win.

                This is one of my mantras.

          • Stuart Munro 2.2.3.1.2
            11 September 2020 at 10:54 am

            Yup – The use of the term losers by the representative class indicates that they have usurped the people's franchise and see themselves as rulers.

            People don't want to be losers, they want a government that represents their interests – that doesn't steal public assets or free education or fishery rights or any of the other ladders that used to allow NZ people to succeed.

    • Ad 2.3
      11 September 2020 at 8:38 am

      If the Greens or any party want to go after voters by saying that they will tax them much harder that Labour will, they are welcome to it.

      But it will just be another weight that pulls them under 5%.

      • solkta 2.3.1
        11 September 2020 at 8:59 am

        You mean "not nearly so softly", surely.

      • AB 2.3.2
        11 September 2020 at 2:11 pm

        "If the Greens or any party want to go after voters by saying that they will tax them much harder that Labour will, they are welcome to it."

        Yep. Labour are doing a really good job of showing us what a sane and civilised centre-right government looks like. Their strategically near-flawless Covid response is setting about saving as much of BAU as possible. They are rocking few boats with tax or climate change initiatives. Who but those mentally vitiated by habit and the psychopathology of culture wars needs National now? Labour is opening significant space on their left – if there is a genuine constituency there, someone can take it.

    • Pat 2.4
      11 September 2020 at 8:55 am

      Increased taxation on the middle class is not (or shouldnt be) the goal, that is the area of most discretionary spend within the economy….about the only thing Labour got right with its tax policy was its target and is why the Greens policy is far superior.

      The purpose is redistribution and incentive

      • Draco T Bastard 2.4.1
        11 September 2020 at 1:37 pm

        Increased taxation on the middle class is not (or shouldnt be) the goal, that is the area of most discretionary spend within the economy

        To a degree I agree with that. I've even pointed out that we should be able to do without income tax altogether but, IMO, we could only do that if we had a minimum and maximum income. The former ensures everyone has enough to live on and the latter ensures that people don't have too much.

        People having too much is, of course, the bigger problem.

  3. Pat 3
    11 September 2020 at 9:02 am

    "On the face of it, the promise from Labour that it would make New Zealand's electricity system fully renewable by 2030 seems a bold climate pledge.

    In reality, it is little more than a red herring to distract from the woeful lack of policy to reduce emissions in sectors that pollute far more than the energy industry."

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/100-percent-renewable-energy-is-a-red-herring

    'Red herring' was the first thought I had, closely followed by 'eating Greens lunch'…the closing comment however nails it.

    "So long as we are unwilling to commit to the hard work needed to decarbonise our society, political parties like Labour will continue to get away with offering stingy emissions reductions as if they're game-changing climate policies."

    • Draco T Bastard 3.1
      11 September 2020 at 1:57 pm

      "Our plan will start by rolling out the recently announced $70m Government investment to support large businesses to replace the use of fossil fuel in industrial heat processes and connect to the grid. This includes transmission line upgrades, and direct support to industrial users to convert their coal boilers to electricity or other renewable alternatives," the policy fact sheet reads.

      I do hope that means that the government will be buying back the power shares rather than giving the bludgers millions of dollars so that they can bludge better.

  4. Morrissey 4
    11 September 2020 at 9:04 am

    Will the vassal U.K. state have the courage to resist the Trump regime?

    Under British law, no one may be extradited for political reasons.

    • RedLogix 4.1
      11 September 2020 at 10:09 am

      Given that a post-Brexit UK is quietly trying to negotiate a free-trade deal with the USA right now … a deal that will not be concluded until the Yanks have more or less crushed the Brits will to live … then yes political considerations will likely trump legal ones.

  5. Molly 5
    11 September 2020 at 9:08 am

    Good post on Auckland's water care woes on Joel Cayford's planning blog:

    Auckland Water Shortages and Watercare

    Goes into the history and detail of the formation of Watercare, and the consequences of that.

    • Andre 5.1
      11 September 2020 at 9:27 am

      As a historical review it's fine. But at best it just barely touches on alternatives to Waikato River water for the water supply situation Auckland is now in, and what the infrastructure implications of those alternatives might be.

      Briefly, one issue is that drinking quality water is supplied for everything – toilet flushing, golf course irrigation, industrial cleaning etc, as well as actual drinking. But the infrastructure implication of going to a two-tier quality water supply means effectively a double-up on water supply infrastructure.

      Another related issue is the use once and dump we have for almost all users. While there is some water recycling in individual businesses – car washes are just the first that comes to mind – re-using grey water in general implies a lot of doubling up on waste-water infrastructure.

      • Molly 5.1.1
        11 September 2020 at 9:36 am

        There is mention and references in the article about how drinkable quality water is utilised for everything, where many other muncipal or state systems have had a dual tier system for water for industrial use, and water for consumption.

        The investment in a double up in this case, is an investment in public health outcomes, and a reduction in use and dump situations if possible. Taking water from the Waikato has been a strategy pursued for years, without any alternative option being proposed.

        NZers are used to having lots of land, lots of water, lots of fuel and the consequences of this largesse is that sometimes use and planning – at personal and institutional level – does not result in these resources being used efficiently.

        • Andre 5.1.1.1
          11 September 2020 at 10:05 am

          Other places that have gone to dual-tier supply, and reuse and recycling systems, tend to be in places where water really truly is a very scarce resource. For instance, Windhoek Namibia, and southwestern US are just the first two I'm directly aware of. None of them have a massive river flowing into the sea right where water is needed, and the need could be supplied from under 2% of that flow.

          The overwhelming impression I've developed of opposition to taking Waikato water is that opponents have zero conception of how small Auckland's take really is compared to the general flow of the river, nor how close the intake is to where the river becomes tidal and salty, meaning there simply is almost zero length of river run where ecological effects or other users could conceivably be affected by the miniscule reduction in flow. Then there's the woo-woo objections on the basis of water is precious with no other arguments attached.

          Then, when it comes to ideas about disturbing the historic flow of the river, the Tongariro power scheme diverted a lot of water into the Waikato that used to flow down the Rangitikei, Whangaehu and Whanganui rivers starting in the early 80s. That extra flow amounts to around 10% of the Waikato flow at the river mouth – about 5 times Auckland's proposed maximum take.

          • RedLogix 5.1.1.1.1
            11 September 2020 at 10:18 am

            Having worked in the water supply industry for a considerable period I can only confirm this comment 100% Andre.

            The superficial reasons given for objections to the increased take for Auckland are absurd. The actual motivations can have nothing to do with the health of the river.

            Time for the government to step and sort this out.

        • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1.2
          12 September 2020 at 12:31 am

          NZers are used to having lots of land, lots of water, lots of fuel and the consequences of this largesse is that sometimes use and planning – at personal and institutional level – does not result in these resources being used efficiently.

          I recall when Labour were going to put in place shower head restrictions. National and its supporters got really upset about but what really stood out, to me, was some idiot journalist going on about how we have infinite water, that it just falls from the sky, and thus we didn't need to restrict people's use of it.

          He'd obviously missed all the droughts that NZ keeps having and Auckland's last water crisis in the 1990s.

  6. Dennis Frank 6
    11 September 2020 at 9:30 am

    Labour's move to outflank National on the right seems shrewd on the basis that the number of people who see that are politically insignificant. Most suckers believe Labour is the party of the left, not the party of the rich.

    Geoff Simmons is a former Treasury economist, and leader of The Opportunities Party. He examines the likely reality created by Labour's tax policy: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/122723279/election-2020-wholl-gain-from-labours-plan-to-tax-the-rich-the-rich

    the real winners from Labour’s policy are real estate agents and wealthy people themselves. That is because the tax change is likely to send property prices even higher.

    The real problem with our tax system is the different tax treatment of property compared with other investments. People with money in other forms of investments – KiwiSaver, bank deposits and businesses – pay some of the highest tax rates in the world on the returns from those investments. Meanwhile, property investments – especially the family home – pay some of the lowest taxes in the world.

    This provides a massive incentive to speculate on property. That is why we put more of our money into property than any other country in the world. That means we put less into businesses (which actually create jobs and exports) than any other country. This is also one reason why we have some of the most unaffordable housing in the world. Increasing the top tax rate to 39c will make the problem worse.

    Since the worsening of the problem will not become apparent until the medium-term future, Labour's deceit strategy is likely to be effective. A clever ploy.

    • Muttonbird 6.1
      11 September 2020 at 9:36 am

      Remind us of your stance on a Capital Gains Tax, or an Asset Tax, Dennis?

      • Dennis Frank 6.1.1
        11 September 2020 at 9:40 am

        I agree with both, in principle, since they enhance equity. Not sure it's relevant to how the ex-Treasury dude sees Labour's policy operating though…

    • Andre 6.2
      11 September 2020 at 9:45 am

      Simmons isn't wrong on the general point that NZ tax is very low on returns from capital and wealth.

      But Simmons is very wrong that taxes in NZ are comparatively very high on returns from businesses in particular. The complete absence of capital gains taxes in NZ means the biggest form of returns from business is completely untaxed – unlike the US, UK, Australia, China etc.

      Company profits in NZ are also effectively only taxed once on the way to individual pockets, unlike at least the US where profits are taxed first at the company level, then dividends distributed from profits are then taxed at the individual level.

      • Dennis Frank 6.2.1
        11 September 2020 at 10:30 am

        Are you an economist? Your comment reads as if. Re Simmons; takes one to know one. I get your logic though and it seems valid.

        If so, then it is a status quo historically co-created by Labour & National: this left/right collusion makes us more business-friendly than those other countries.

        Will we see Labour supporters go public and explain why they support capitalism? Hell will freeze over before that happens. Hypocrisy is better than honesty for them.

        • Andre 6.2.1.1
          11 September 2020 at 10:33 am

          No I'm not an economist. I'm an engineer that has lived and worked in NZ, the US, and Mexico, and paid a broad range of taxes in all three of those jurisdictions. Plus the state income taxes in New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and California.

        • Andre 6.2.1.2
          11 September 2020 at 10:54 am

          As for why I support some capitalism as part of a mixed economy, I've travelled through places that don't have a healthy private capitalist sector. Fuck that for jokes of places to live.

          In any society there will always be those compelled to somehow flaunt "success". So they can have sex with the most attractive partners, enjoy the most interesting experiences, eat the tenderest tastiest food, live in the biggest house, have others pander to their whims. Capitalism provides a good avenue for the likes of Jobs, Musk etc to fulfill that urge by creating stuff the rest of us value.

          Capitalism works well where there's low barriers to entry, there's genuine product differentiation, consumers can reasonably evaluate in choose among competitors. Food, clothing, transport, recreational activity etc.

          Capitalism doesn't work well where there are natural monopolies (eg electricity, water), where the consumer can't reasonably evaluate different options and make reasonable choices and life effects may be disproportionate (healthcare, education).

          Hence the value of a mixed economy in being able to take advantage of the strengths of different systems.

          • Sabine 6.2.1.2.1
            11 September 2020 at 11:45 am

            +1

            a social market economy is actually a thing.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_market_economy#:~:text=The%20social%20market%20economy%20(SOME,market%20and%20a%20welfare%20state.

            also 'for the greater good' should be made the underlying basis of said social market society.

            But NZ what stills ails the country imo, is a very old fashioned system in which two thirds of the country peasants working for a few Landlords to whom the political class either belongs, or wants to belong to, or is indebted too, and a bunch of highly paid stenographers that don't even want to pretend to being journalists, lest it costs them access to the landlord class.

          • AB 6.2.1.2.2
            11 September 2020 at 12:02 pm

            That's a solid framework to work with. Markets are useful tools which we can use in selected areas to meet pre-existing social/ethical goals, and avoid using in other areas where they would undermine those goals. Once that is established, then we can get down to arguing about which bucket (market/non-market) things should be in – and we will have taken the insanity of markets as ends in themselves off the table.

    • Draco T Bastard 6.3
      12 September 2020 at 12:14 am

      That means we put less into businesses (which actually create jobs and exports) than any other country.

      No business has ever created a job.

      Job creation is always dependent upon demand for the product/service in the community thus we can say that it is the community that creates jobs. If there is no demand there are no jobs.

      Other than that, he's probably right. Capitalists always look for the easiest way to scam the rest of us and property in NZ is a very easy way to become a rentier.

  7. Logie97 7
    11 September 2020 at 9:46 am

    I may have missed it, but where are the united voices of the leadership of our opposition parties condemning the fundamentalists for their conspiracy theories. Perhaps they see some votes being lost. Or do Collins and Peters believe Covid is not a threat?

    • Stuart Munro 7.1
      11 September 2020 at 9:57 am

      It's more that they're so desperate they'd love a few votes from the loons.

    • Robert Guyton 7.2
      11 September 2020 at 10:04 am

      I'd like to hear comments about this also, Logie97.

    • Red 7.3
      11 September 2020 at 10:15 am

      Why even credit them with a response, they are loons you do not need to convince non loons of that.

      • logie97 7.3.1
        11 September 2020 at 11:18 am

        Not sure I understand your response Red. Unfortunately the loons are gaining traction (spreading-like-a-virus amongst their fellow loons). And their actions are the current outbreak spreaders of covid. Why are we pussyfooting around with them and not shaming them and their leaders. A chance for Collins to show some leadership as well.

        • Robert Guyton 7.3.1.1
          11 September 2020 at 11:28 am

          "Shaming them" feeds their furnace, unfortunately. Naming their issues gives those issues coverage and credibility, in the eyes of the devoted, so alluding to them is the only way. The devotees have been primed to expect resistance from the "establishment" and will thrill to noise made, accusations levelled and individuals blamed; they are seeking martyrdom and have already embedded the possibility in the minds of their followers. Logical appeals to those flighty-folk are met with Gish gallop and shared glances of delight as they bolster each others cleverness in knowing that "this was going to happen". It's a tricky situation. The best approach seems to be "extinguish by ignoring" but that's frustrating when you are watching that contagion seemingly spread and hear them boast of their up-coming landslide victory!

        • Sabine 7.3.1.2
          11 September 2020 at 11:30 am

          The government set an instant fine of NZD 300 for people caught not wearing a mask on a bus.

          The government could revoke the tax exempt status of the church/es, or could just start issuing instant fines for disregarding covid instructions.

          Any day now, for sure.

          • Draco T Bastard 7.3.1.2.1
            12 September 2020 at 12:08 am

            The government could revoke the tax exempt status of the church/es

            Should do that anyway. After all, the churches are no longer the government mandated centres for welfare distribution (it didn't work).

  8. Observer Tokoroa 8
    11 September 2020 at 10:20 am

    Nationals Killers

    There is no need for Labour to be concerned about the Future. It has taken the amazing stand of clearing up the appalling mess given by national, decade after decade.

    National are a grotty bunch of money grubbers, who go out of their American way, year after year, to destroy the livings and the necessities of the New Zealand population.

    National have made sure never to build a house for the people. The People are made to crawl daily to get food from decent respectable people.

    Nothing, but nothing adequate has been given to the Population by the money thieves.

    National love suicide. Love poor Literacy. Adore Poverty. They are good at it.

    • Red 8.1
      11 September 2020 at 5:58 pm

      What a ridiculous rant

      The difference between National and labour for the majority is paper thin, for those in struggle town even less Both simply manage to the centre with a couple of scraps to keep their rabid base happy re differentiation and that’s about it

  9. Sabine 9
    11 September 2020 at 10:22 am

    Has any Party so far posted something up in regards to the 11.000 covid unemployed of whom 90% are women? Something anything? Or is Carmel Sepuloni the only one who spoke of the dear 'unfortunate' that can't get better benefits as they have right now but might be pressured into 'voluntary work' cause indentured servitude is now a thing with the Labour Party.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/425029/cautious-approach-taken-to-avoid-beneficiary-volunteering-becoming-work-for-the-dole-scheme

    Social Development Minister Carmel Sepuloni wants to look at ways the welfare system can encourage volunteering to prepare people for work.

    But officials have warned against making it compulsory.

    Trevor McGlinchey from the Council of Christian Social Services was on the Welfare Expert Advisory Group which produced a report on restoring dignity to social security.

    Also is Carmel Sepuloni so far removed from reality that she really thinks that 'volunteering' for the benefit is getting people ready for work that is not there?

    Is Carmel Sepuloni saying that the people that lost jobs since January 2020 due to Covid, need 'volunteering' to get them to understand the value of work?

    And is Carmel Sepuloni saying that people who are currently on a benefit – unemployment, social welfare, single parents, illness etc do not at all, never, or currently are not volunteering in their community.\

    and last but least, when has Carmel Sepuloni last volunteered for anything else then a government pay for which she has to do absolutely nothing and be served chardonnay with her dinner for free?

    fuck, is there anyone in our current government that actually gives a flying fuck about the misery that is currently starting to blanket the country, or are shovel ready jobs for the rich and connected the only ones that are worth their time?

    Seriously think about it, 11.000 Covid unemployed (by their own statistics), 90% of whom are women, and who now can look forward to a life of 'bene bashing' forced 'volunteering' and starvation benefits. Does anyone give a shit?

    ” Indentured servitude
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Jump to navigationJump to search

    An indenture signed by Henry Mayer, with an “X”, in 1738. This contract bound Mayer to Abraham Hestant of Bucks County, Pennsylvania, who had paid for Mayer to travel from Europe.
    An indentured servant or indentured laborer is an employee (indenturee) within a system of unfree labor who is bound by a signed or forced contract (indenture) to work without pay for the owner of the indenture for a period of time. The contract often lets the employer sell the labor of an indenturee to a third party. Indenturees usually enter into an indenture for a specific payment or other benefit (such as transportation to a new place), or to meet a legal obligation, such as debt bondage. On completion of the contract, indentured servants were given their freedom, and occasionally plots of land. Indentured servitude was often brutal, with a high percentage[vague] of servants dying prior to the expiration of their indentures. In many countries, systems of indentured labor have now been outlawed, and are banned by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a form of slavery.”

    Last, if there is work to be done – then the Government can start hiring these unemployed people on the benefit and pay them minimum wage. And if they don’t want to do that, than they should hang their heads in eternal shame.

    • Treetop 9.1
      11 September 2020 at 1:54 pm

      No government can afford to pay the minimum wage for unpaid work.

      Why do people do unpaid work?

      Job experience, because there is a need in the family, to have purpose and construction in your life, help fill the day by being occupied, rewarding.

      I draw the line in the government becoming involved as it is a person's choice, just like if you go to church.

  10. Ad 10
    11 September 2020 at 10:51 am

    When is the next poll out?

  11. Anne 11
    11 September 2020 at 11:27 am

    Auckland Mayor Phil Goff says people in the city are, by and large, following the rules and prosecution shouldn't be ruled out for those who break them or spread misinformation.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/425782/covid-19-scepticism-a-failing-of-intellect-phil-goff-says

    Good on you Phil. Its time prosecution was threatened for those who are peddling disinformation and conspiracy theories. We can't do a lot about ignorance and naivety, but we can stop the bastards who feed on it and create so much damage and fear in the process.

    Why can't the SIS and the GCSB pool their resources and dig them out of their metaphorical caves? They have the tools to do the job. A visit from the police ordering them to desist accompanied with the threat of prosecution if they don't comply should shut most of them up. And exposing the identities of the worst offenders would do no harm either.

    • Treetop 12.1
      11 September 2020 at 2:11 pm

      The me too movement has many tentacles and what you raise is one of them. Sexual harassment is finally being exposed for the damage it causes. That there is no avenue for complaint that works. Taking a complaint against an employer for sexual harassment is a bit like an ACC sensitive claim. You are on your own, you need a lawyer, the legislation is not fit for purpose especially an historical case.

      I was disappointed in Dowie as she could have done a private members bill/ballot to address the hurdle of the Limitations Act and the dysfunctional ACC Act. For a historical schedule 3 ACC claim when you have complained there should be no Limitations Act date when a serious error occurred by an organisation. Now that would fix an organisation. Historical cases are being discriminated against compared to a current case as no right to sue.

      Go to stuff news and look at the Mariya Taylor update today. Please do a link for it.

  13. greywarshark 13
    11 September 2020 at 12:12 pm

    It would be good if the smart leaders at the top listened to the smart workers who make it all happen. Make them part of the process and there will be less demand, and more effectiveness for everybody.

    https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO2009/S00112/council-bureaucrats-block-rail-workers-input-to-working-group.htm

    The Chair of Dunedin Holdings Limited (DHL) has refused to allow union representation on an important stakeholder group on the future of Dunedin Railways Limited (DRL).

    The RMTU wrote to DRL on 1 September requesting membership of the Council’s reference group charged with overseeing submissions into the future of the council-owned company.

    The union letter was signed by RMTU Otago Branch Secretary Dave Kearns, as well as Unions Otago Convenor Andrew Tait and Unions Otago Secretary Malcolm Deans, on behalf of local affiliates of the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions.

  14. gsays 14
    11 September 2020 at 1:03 pm

    Reply to grey @ 12.

    It's been hard to have a former hero of mine be repeatedly revealed to be one I have little respect for.

    Way back in the day I saw Bad Taste on the big screen in Palmy. A feature film made in the weekends by a bunch of guys in and around Wellys. Funny and gory.

    Fast forward to 'The Hobbitt Law' and the lies Mr and Mrs Jackson told, besmirching a true hero's name, Helen Kelly, all to serve greed and Warners.

    Now there is this.

  15. Sabine 15
    11 September 2020 at 1:15 pm

    are these guys for realz? why yes they are.

    https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO2009/S00109/are-you-close-to-retirement-and-aware-of-upcoming-changes-to-the-nz-superannuation-legislation.htm

    As part of this year’s “wellbeing” budget, the New Zealand Government will close the “non-qualifying partner” provision in the superannuation legislation. Until now, a pensioner could include their younger partner (under 65) in their payment, provided the couple’s combined other income was below $100 a week. Read more on https://www.govt.nz/browse/tax-benefits-and-finance/new-zealand-superannuation-and-the-veterans-pension/your-partner-and-nz-superannuation/getting-nz-super-for-your-partner/#including-your-partner

    From 9 November, the NZ Government is intending to remove this provision, so non-qualifying partners will no longer be able to be included! The closure will have an immense impact on many people who are about to retire, and without any warning, people will not have time to re-set their retirement plans! For example, a younger wife who is looking after an older man with health needs will, under the new law, no longer be applicable for the “non-qualifying partner” payment and will have to look for paid employment.

    ahh, yeah, the 'wellbeing' budget, the kinder gentler bullshit that will leave all a bit poorer, but never mind the Queen and her consorts are all in this together. Why vote fro the no – mates party when Labour does it so well.

    • greywarshark 15.1
      11 September 2020 at 1:54 pm

      You can scrub and get the surface free of the neolib bullshit, nice seeming, shiny, but it soaks through the skin and stays. You never get rid of it.

    • RedBaronCV 15.2
      11 September 2020 at 2:17 pm

      Actually super not being on an individual basis was causing a lot of problems. Particularly for anyone who had an overseas partner from some countries who were not eligible despite being so if they were single.

      Nor do I think super should be used as a de facto payment for individual nursing.

      It was also propping up a lot of the internet bride market – where very young women could be included in the claim and then when the male partner died they would have to transit onto some thing else. if they had any skills

      It also had a funny downside where if the couple of not too different ages claimed – one over and one under and the older partner died then the not quite 65 year old had to attempt to go back to or find work or go onto an unemployment benefit for a few years. However, a single person under 65 has no choice but continue to work or be on unemployment benefit so at least it isn't discriminating on the basis of partnership status

      But I don't like the hard edge cut off that they did Personally if a partner was under say 50 or under I would have given them 18 months to 2 years to get themselves off super and into employment or unemployment.

      As the non eligible partner got older a sliding scale to maintain some level of eligibility for those within in say 5 years of retiring would have been a fairer take.

      Any way most retirement policy doesn't do a lot for women who live longer and are more likely to go into retirement alone or to live alone in retirement.

      • Sabine 15.2.1
        11 September 2020 at 3:05 pm

        i know full well that retirement for women means in many cases abject poverty, but then so does being a women on the benefit – specially if your partner actually has an income as the benefit then reduces to nothing. So that is hte other side.

        But women tend to be younger then their male partners, and they also tend to look after their partners and or sick children/parents etc. So again, its women that are being hit the hardest with this change of rules.

        Nevermind, when it comes to benefits and beneficiaries all the parties are full of shit. All of them.

      • Shanreagh 15.2.2
        11 September 2020 at 4:50 pm

        They have had from 30/5/19. It is not retrospective so those who were on the books as at July 2020 will cary-on.

        There is a safety net.

        The outlook is far bleaker for singles whether male or female.

    • Shanreagh 15.3
      11 September 2020 at 4:45 pm

      I agree with the move to prevent younger partners piggybacking on much older partners/husbands super. it is part of a series of moves to treat people in marriages etc as individuals. And it has been well signalled since the Wellbeing budget in in May 2019, the previous cut-off was July 2020 so it has been extended because of Covid-19 I guess.

      'Pensioners who are currently including their partner will be able to continue to do so. But if their partner is not already included in their payment at July 1, they will not be able to be included.

      A spokeswoman for Minster of Social Development Carmel Sepuloni said non-qualified partners of pensioners would be able to access support through the welfare system in the same way as other people.'

      Stuff Jan 25 2020

      The previous system was rife with abuse from older men with much younger overseas spouses, who were often in very short duration marriages because of the death of the very much older spouse, had no real ties to NZ and were then able to receive various benefits without having to work, pay tax etc.

      As the changes are not retrospective those receiving this piggybacking will continue to receive it until the younger one qualifies for super.

      If the younger spouse is entitled to receive pension from overseas then the rule that saw it deducted from the spouses pension here in NZ has been dropped.

      'From 1 July 2020, the direct deduction of a government-administered overseas pension received by a superannuitant’s partner from that superannuitant’s New Zealand Super or Veteran’s Pension will be removed.'

      and

      'The Spousal Provision clearly has been a source of extreme distress for so long for the 500 or so couples affected and the removal will greatly improve their financial situation, say the retirement experts.'

      https://www.auckland.ac.nz/en/news/2019/06/04/praise-for-amendment-to-superannuation-.html

      So it fixed up the genuine problem with super payments that younger overseas pension qualified spouses had while tightened the loophole, with plenty of notice 18months or more, for the other set.

      We have assurances that the safety net will remain and those affected will be able to access support through our welfare system.

  16. greywarshark 16
    11 September 2020 at 1:51 pm

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/425810/govt-to-help-stranded-immigrants-fly-home

    Good, but to finish the job they need to have enough money for food when they get there, and a train/bus to get home. No use dumping them in their country and bye bye. Many of these people have no resources left after just existing for months while no-one knew what would happen next.

    • RedBaronCV 16.1
      11 September 2020 at 2:48 pm

      Be good to get a list of the countries who are refusing to help their own citizens and leaving us with the financial hit – NZ advances money to it's citizens stuck overseas with no funds

  17. RedLogix 17
    11 September 2020 at 2:08 pm

    COVID and Vitamin D.

    • Treetop 17.1
      11 September 2020 at 4:34 pm

      I listened to the first 17 minutes. I usually use powdered milk with Vitamin D3 added. I realise a level and the absorption of vitamin D3 is required. There probably is a safe level of Vitamin D3. Just like folate is added to bread, adding Vitamin D3 to milk would be one way of getting some of the vitamin. Ordinary milk could still be purchased.

      There needs to be a larger study. I personally think getting ahead of Covid is the way to go just by ensuring your diet has plenty of Vitamin D3.

      • RedLogix 17.1.1
        11 September 2020 at 8:45 pm

        Yes the trial numbers are low, but the statistical significance is still extremely strong. And as Campbell says it also it aligns strongly with a substantial body of empirical evidence from clinicians all over the world.

        By all means larger and better trials should be run to confirm this study; indeed if they’re not conducted it would truly bring into question the integrity of the entire system.

        Of course I can only hope that Trump doesn't come out and endorse it; if that happens next thing there will be a scam study showing that historically safe doses of Vitamin D3 are now dangerously toxic and WHO will recommend banning any clinical use of it. And govts will start making it illegal to sell OTC.

    • stunned mullet 17.2
      11 September 2020 at 4:52 pm

      Disclaimer; These media including videos, book, e book, articles, podcasts are not peer-reviewed. They should never replace individual clinical judgement from your own health care provider. No media-based material on this channel is suitable for using as professional medical advice. All comments are also for educational purposed only and must never replace advice from your own health care provider.

      • RedLogix 17.2.1
        11 September 2020 at 8:39 pm

        Oh FFS it's a commentary on a well designed clinical study that is reporting exactly what anyone who had been paying attention knew since March sometime … that Vitamin D is strongly involved in protecting from the worst of this disease.

        If this had been taken seriously six months ago it looks like many hundreds of thousands of deaths could have been avoided.

        Shove your sanctimony up your arse.

        • Treetop 17.2.1.1
          11 September 2020 at 9:51 pm

          I second that.

          I have read the benefits of Vitamin D3 else where to fight off Covid.

        • Stunned mullet 17.2.1.2
          12 September 2020 at 9:41 am

          Umm the disclaimer is John Campbell's.

          Vitamin D loading dosing for supportive treatment of covid is certainly interesting and more study is warranted.

          Normal Vitamin D supplementation of individuals is not going to do the vast majority of the population any harm whatsoever.

          Nonsense comments such as ……

          'If this had been taken seriously six months ago it looks like many hundreds of thousands of deaths could have been avoided.'

          are pretty pointless.

          There are a number of shortcomings with the spanish study which I'm sure you're aware of this doesn't mean that Vitamin D supplementation or active high dose treatment in the acute phase are a bad idea just that more study is warranted before making bold statements of efficacy or protective effect of any intervention.

          • Incognito 17.2.1.2.1
            12 September 2020 at 10:12 am

            It always helps to include a link and some comment, even with presumed self-explanatory quotes and ‘obvious’ self-evident copy & paste jobs. Moderators on this site have been droning on about this forever, for a reason.

            https://www.youtube.com/c/Campbellteaching/about

          • RedLogix 17.2.1.2.2
            12 September 2020 at 12:18 pm

            The only obvious shortcoming is the number of patients in the trial. 76 is midrange, neither large nor small.

            However this limitation is largely nullified by the astoundingly strong p value in the results. If you are aware of any other problems how about telling us.

            It's very good news if the result can be replicated.

            • Stunned Mullet 17.2.1.2.2.1
              12 September 2020 at 5:32 pm

              The full citation is as below

              https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960076020302764#

              As you have noted the study is with a vey small number of patients, there is no information on the degree of severity of Covid-19 in the patients at admission, and there is no information on their clinical progress other than ICU admission and death – although these are certainly worth measuring.

              The study doesn't specify the co-morbidities particularly well for instance an obese patient is more likely have a poor outcome.

              The usual care group had more people with high blood pressure and diabetes

              There was no measurement of vitamin D levels before or after administering the hormone.

              To be fair the researchers acknowledge that the study does not provide definitive answers on whether calcifediol can be beneficial for all Covid-19 patients.

  18. RedBaronCV 18
    11 September 2020 at 2:22 pm

    Well labour does seem to be selling out. Nothing resembling a decent tax policy and with the move to allow 10% of incomers to be skilled visa holders 1400 visas a month are coming back in – plus they will check essential skills. There are only around 10,000 that have been here longer than 4 years so that should only be about 6 months worth.

    So much for retraining and jobs for locals. Looks like absolutely no immigration reset.

    • Sabine 18.1
      11 September 2020 at 3:00 pm

      why yes, dear Cunliffe did a whole write up about that one.

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12363202

      behind the pay wall of course.

      and just yesterday a nurse at the shop told me that we have received 100 ventilators, now we only need to import the nurses that can actually work these machines becasue we don't have that talent and skill here in NZ .

      Yeah, but instead of free training for nurses to bond them to NZ for a few years it must still be more profitable to charge an arm a leg and a first born to NZ'lers who would like to work in the profession and then import from overseas when the same NZ trained nursed disappear overseas for better wages and less hassle with the student loan repayments and high living costs.

      National/Labour cause neither one of them cares.

      • Austringer 18.1.1
        11 September 2020 at 6:44 pm

        Did!in!t dislike Cunliffe, he would have had a cleanout, see the change them egit engineers replaced, same like the Nat!s mistake, replacing, Spud, with their appointed first female leader, and New Zealand!s first MANOUVERED without those working outside the farm fence, female Prime Minister, who when the people decided the First ever New Zealand Female appointed Prime Minister to deliver the biggest ()ever) National Party defeat at the ballot box.

    • Shanreagh 18.2
      11 September 2020 at 4:55 pm

      RBCV is there a link for that bit about the visa holders please. This is very disappointing.

      So much for retraining and jobs for locals. Looks like absolutely no immigration reset.

      Looks like the screechy ones (tourist ops, farmers, horticulturalists) have had an influence then.

  19. Ad 19
    11 September 2020 at 2:51 pm

    Great to see shareholder revolt forcing the Board of Rio Tinto to get the resignations of CEO Jean-Sebastien Jacques, the head of iron ore mining, and the head of corporate affairs, after massively damaging an aboriginal cave occupied 40,000 years ago.

    Shouldn't need shareholders to revolt on a board to do it, but good result.

    • greywarshark 19.1
      12 September 2020 at 12:56 pm

      Blew it up didn't he? (Off piste – for those who would like a rest thinking about the present and the future, with foreboding.)

      French like blowing up things apparently. Panama Canal. The Rainbow Warrior. What will be the next French venture?

      google fact: There was approximately about 30,000,000lbs of explosives used to help clear the way for the canal.

      (Some would have been those of USA though. And it is interesting that the Frenchman was not an engineer but a diplomat. He could talk the talk but not walk the walk. I wonder how many big ideas are agreed to on the basis of the rhetoric?)

      https://www.pancanal.com/eng/history/history/french.html

      De Lesseps then decided that another ceremony should inaugurate the section of the canal that would have the deepest excavation, the cut through the Continental Divide at Culebra. A ceremony was arranged, and on January 10, 1880, appropriate officials and guests gathered at Cerro Culebra (later known as Gold Hill) for the ceremony, which included witnessing the blast from an explosive charge set to break up a basalt formation just below the summit. After blessings by the local bishop, young Ferdinande again performed the honors, pushing the button of the electric detonator that set off the charge that hurled a highly satisfactory amount of rock and dirt into the air.

      As de Lesseps was a trained diplomat and not an engineer, a fact that he should perhaps have more often remembered during canal design decisions, his son Charles took on the task of supervising the daily work. De Lesseps himself handled the important work of promoting and raising money for the project from private subscription.

      Not having the least scientific or technical bent, de Lesseps relied upon a rather naive faith in the serendipitous nature of emerging technology. Thus he worried little about the problems facing this gigantic undertaking, feeling sure that the right people with the right ideas and the right machines would somehow miraculously appear at the right time and take care of them. His boundless confidence and enthusiasm for the project and his consummate faith in the miracles of technology attracted stockholders.

      • Draco T Bastard 19.1.1
        12 September 2020 at 1:04 pm

        Not having the least scientific or technical bent, de Lesseps relied upon a rather naive faith in the serendipitous nature of emerging technology. Thus he worried little about the problems facing this gigantic undertaking, feeling sure that the right people with the right ideas and the right machines would somehow miraculously appear at the right time and take care of them. His boundless confidence and enthusiasm for the project and his consummate faith in the miracles of technology attracted stockholders.

        And there we have the quintessence of managerialism which has found its way onto our shores and is now blighting our government and private business.

  20. greywarshark 20
    11 September 2020 at 4:26 pm

    Greed and determination to take.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/425823/loggers-fake-gazette-notice-harvest-protected-solomons-tree-species
    Sep.11/20A foreign logging company in Solomon Islands is being investigated for using fake government documents to gain access to and cut down a protected tree species.
    Local media reported the government was moving to seize a consignment of Queen Ebony, known locally as Tubi, harvested in Isabel Province.
    .

    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/01/deforestation-in-the-solomon-islands/

    Jan.3/20Up on the ridge, a Malaysian logging company named Gallego Resources had begun carving great scores through the forest— its men felling the tall, grey-barked kwila and the akwa strung with fruit, then dragging them off the slopes for export, leaving nothing to stop the rains from taking the topsoil…

    The rivers burst their banks not long after, flooding the flatland where the coconuts, mangoes, and yams grew, and laying down impermeable clay that made the earth unusable.

    So the villagers walked to the little patches of cell phone reception and called Philip Manakako, a son of Marasa who lived 30 miles across the mountains in Honiara, the capital. His father, Philip Senior, told him that there were no more fish in the rivers. The water was making children sick, an uncle said. A woman who lived nearby explained how her plants all died three days after the floods first came, and the ground around them smelled of petrol….

  21. greywarshark 21
    11 September 2020 at 4:43 pm

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/09/09/do-new-covid-rules-mean-gyms-pubs-restaurants-universities/
    What do the new Covid rules mean for gyms, pubs, restaurants and universities?

    Resurgence of infections prompts stricter curbs, including bar and restaurant curfews and 'Covid-secure marshals'

    In the UK Boorish will lead them out of the depths, playing his flute and with any luck the mountains will close behind him and we will never see him again. You may be able to see a vid clip from the above or look up on google news.

  22. Pat 22
    11 September 2020 at 7:28 pm

    Bad timing for the Labour party….and is yet another example of the disconnect between the rhetoric and the act.

    "Some questions are too sensitive for Gullery and White.

    They won’t say if they’re surprised this has happened under a Labour Government. There’s silence when they’re asked if it’s galling to watch the Government splash Covid-19 stimulus cash around the country, and spend wads of money around Christchurch on things like new sports stadiums, when they’re having to cut health services."

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/why-we-left-ex-dhb-bosses-speak-out

    • Corey Humm 22.1
      11 September 2020 at 7:54 pm

      "spend wads of cash on Christchurch like stadiums and things" while I agree dhb's desperately need cash the spending on infrastructure is non negotiable and is miles away from what it should be for a center of around half a million people. This is replacing what was broken and the rebuild job by both Labour and national (it's been three years so Labour is just as guilty ) has been horrendous. East chch left to rot because it's a labour safe seat so why bother, a city the size of chch deserves a stadium and functioning roads and infrastructure, it's been a decade and that city is still a bloody mess. Damn right , they deserve every penny they get and more and it's not extra spending it's replacing what was taken. A decade. It's appalling. Labour mayor, labour council every electorate bar one is labour and sweet bugger all has happened in three years. I honestly can't believe anyone in my home town has to pay rates to live there half the cbd is still full of rubble and half the building that need to come down are just standing supported by crates cos some do gooder thinks it's heritage. I digress don't act like money going into Chch for stadiums is extra spending, extra spending would be giving that city light rail or luxuries. It's still broken as hell despite govt of all kinds praising the rebuild progress.

      Sorry for the rant every time I visit home I get furious and people seem to think chch is getting stuff it doesn't deserve

      • Pat 22.1.1
        11 September 2020 at 8:02 pm

        "They won’t say if they’re surprised this has happened under a Labour Government. There’s silence when they’re asked if it’s galling…"

        • greywarshark 22.1.1.1
          12 September 2020 at 1:01 pm

          From CHumm "Damn right , they deserve every penny they get and more and it's not extra spending it's replacing what was taken. A decade. It's appalling. "

          A decade!! Labour has only been in three years and been under constant attack by National. Give over Pat.

          • Pat 22.1.1.1.1
            12 September 2020 at 1:11 pm

            You miss the point (as does Corey)….after a decade of National the sector was promised some relief only to find that not only was the relief not forthcoming but the burden was to be increased….meanwhile the sector observes the apparent plenty for others.

            The journalist observes this and unsuccessfully seeks opinion…..that opinion may not be expressed publicly but the voting booth is private.

  23. lprent 23
    11 September 2020 at 9:14 pm

    Will be doing a quick shutdown and restart at 2130 (9:30pm) to change to a UPS with fresh batteries.

    • lprent 23.1
      11 September 2020 at 10:31 pm

      Less quick than I'd like.

      • Treetop 23.1.1
        12 September 2020 at 10:46 am

        Thank you for fixing the cell phone reply issue. I still like to find time to comment. I was absent for several months from late last year until lockdown. It took me returning to realise how much you do and you do it so well. Your main authors as well deserve a big thank you.

        Edit if you are still working on the reply issue it appears to be fixed for me.

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