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Open mike 11/11/2013

Written By: - Date published: 7:05 am, November 11th, 2013 - 163 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy). Step right up to the mike …

163 comments on “Open mike 11/11/2013 ”

  1. Tracey 1

    o those commenting on obesity and to bm in particular. Many women who were raped or otherwise sexually abused over eat. Some to hide from me so they protect themselves subconsciously by becoming what they think is fat and ugly…. by eating to feel better when depression or anxiety strikes. So dont assume all obese people are simply fat and lazy as bm puts it. With 1-3 girls sexually abused it may be a hidden factor.

    • weka 1.1

      Living in the patriarchy is enough to make one overeat.

    • King Kong 1.2

      I bet there are some woman that over eat due to a lack of attention, lurid or otherwise, from men. There will also be some that over eat because they only got 54% in school C English.

      The one thing they all have in common though is a lack of self control.

    • Murray Olsen 1.3

      Unfortunate typo, Tracey. Second line, 9th word should probably have an n on the end of it.

      Other than that, I have seen this happen, and as a conscious decision in some cases.

  2. Tracey 2

    Not hide from me but hide from men

    • KJT 2.1

      And many people who are depressed or without much hope for all sorts of reasons.

      Living in poverty, illness or disability without much hope of any improvement leads people to seize on anything which makes them feel better. Eating, Alcohol, gambling etc.
      It takes an exceptionally strong person to resist. Mine was eating.

      Which is why I am so against people who make a living from gambling and drugs, including alcohol and smokes.

      They are making profits off peoples need for hope.

      • Rosie 2.1.1

        Well said KJT. Easy to judge and criticise for those whose life is one of ease, or that old chestnut “I did it so you can you too” as if we are all the same, experiencing our difficulties the same way.

        Another factor in comfort eating/drinking/past times is work stress, and the NZ workplace seems to becoming an increasingly fraught place to be with insecure work hours, poor prospects, low pay, loss of self esteem and diminishing employment law. If some one is working long hours and is stressed and fatigued the easiest thing to turn at the end of a shift is carbohydratey goodness. Instant gratification with undesirable consequences in the long run, eg, weight gain, type 2 diabetes, heart problems Then again anti depressants can trigger weight gain too, so unless we have the opportunity to live our life well and free from stressors, we face an uphill battle in our dog eat dog world.

        Exercise of course is of great benefit to our physical and mental health but for some there is simply no energy just to go for a walk around the block.

        As well as the vampires (booze, fags, and junk food co’s and casino’s) who source of profit is derived from stressed people we still live in a society that doesn’t accept differences so for those whose health is sub optimal, they are further punished by non acceptance.

        Wouldn’t it be great if we lived in a society where people had well paid secure work in safe conditions, access to preventative healthcare (eg counselling), access to cheap gst free, good quality food and secure living arrangements. Whats the bet the health of the population would improve, and we wouldn’t be treating people for preventable illness further down the line.

        • phillip ure

          “..Wouldn’t it be great if we lived in a society where people had well paid secure work in safe conditions, access to preventative healthcare (eg counselling), access to cheap gst free, good quality food and secure living arrangements. .”

          it is all do-able..

          ..it only needs political-will..

          and/or a ‘real’ labour party..

          ..phillip ure..

          • Rosie

            Agreed phillip, on the do-able bit. It would take a bold socially focused government to promote equality, genuinely, not just as a nice word to throw around, and address that which makes the population unhealthy and unhappy.There will always be individual factors influencing poor health (including genetic and environmental) but decreasing poverty and opening up access to better standards of public health care should be something governments should priortise. All been said before though.

      • Tim 2.1.2

        Indeed KJT. I’d love to see the personally responsible KK cope given a life of simply working (2, maybe 3 minimum wage jobs), eating (often a diet of noodles and the cheapest bargains out of one of those duopoly constructed SUPERmarkets), shitting, struggling with artificially constructed power bills designed for efficiency and fectivniss and a return to its shareholders, a MSM – again constructed by a fukwit whose only understanding of life and the universe is that it must make a ‘return’, and tending towards monopoly, getiing the kids to school and worrying about how they might pay for the next train fare or petrol bill; only to repeat without being able to rinse.

        And this cycle is week after week, month after month’ year after year.
        Any form of escapism is STRICTLY VERBOTEN!

        I’d bloody take to drink as well!
        Dirty filthy bennies though are NOT allowed to have any fun, or pleasure, and must be monitored at ALL times by a matron (one that’s not just the stereotypical image of 50’s matronliness, but one that’s the biggest nenny-statist, truly UGLY [in EVERY sense of the word] specimen that waddled the green fleur de lis carpit. CHA-OYCE (aye1)
        The best metaphor I’ve heard to date is Cunliffe’s “pulling up the ladder”.
        The truly UGLY & inadequate control freak hopefully has no conscience (for her sake).
        That part of her brain that a conscience would normally occupy has been taken over by EMBUSHIN.

        Oh, btw – she’s not alone of course. There’s an utterly incompetent specimen trying to inflict her will on the masses as well – in order to impress her dear dea leader.
        Ever noticed her fashion?
        Very military-like – not unlike those of colonial oppressors.
        She’s rilly rilly in control! (at least in her own mind)

  3. AsleepWhileWalking 3

    Herald does some great investigative work (!!) in uncovering ministers secret investment properties:

    • bad12 3.1

      Bridges has to go as a Minister, while not declaring the property held in the personally managed super-fund might be ‘within the rules’ the non-declaration of the Northland property Bridges claims to be holding on behalf of ‘a friend’ is definitely not,

      Obviously ‘within the rules’ looks to be a very thin veneer of cover of what is yet another Ministerial rort over housing allowances for MP’s and Ministers where the ‘system’ is being gamed by MP’s and Ministers so as to allow them to dip deeply into the taxpayers pockets collecting ‘rent’ for property that they actually own and rent off of their personal super-fund which they are the personal managers of…

  4. amirite 4

    Dirty filthy rorting Tory rats:

    ‘Chester Borrows, Simon Bridges, Anne Tolley, Chris Auchinvole, Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga and Mike Sabin – live in the Wellington properties while working in the capital and claim the accommodation allowance or expenses.’


    And that’s why the Nats will NEVER move to introduce the CGT or in any other way intervene in the overheated property market.

    • chris73 4.1

      I agree, I would like to see this area cleaned up or exposed to more daylight…whatever is more effective

    • Morrissey 4.2

      Chester Borrows, Simon Bridges, Anne Tolley, Chris Auchinvole, Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga and Mike Sabin.

      Putting to one side their dishonesty, what a depressing, talentless line-up. Depressing if you’re a National Party backer, that is.

    • ak 4.3

      Too right you’re right amirite.
      Must be about time for Borrows to announce again how successful he’s been in bashing some more beneficiaries for not taking the lawn-mowing money off their children’s plates and giving it to the Slippery Natz slush-fund party.

      • Zorr 4.3.1

        It explains why they’re not leaving in the current “clean out”

        They still have payments to make on their mortgage!

  5. Morrissey 5


    No. 36: Paul Dykzeul

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    “No we won’t be changing the Listener; it’s got a terrific editor….”

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    —-Paul Dykzeul, Chief Executive of Bauer Media, Mediawatch, Radio NZ National, Sunday 10 November 2013

    More liars….
    No. 35 Mark Jennings: “I think Paul’s a bright guy and he will be able to bring a discipline to his performance….”
    No. 34 Willie Jackson: “I thought we’d been sensitive with her yesterday….”
    No. 33 Supt. Bill Searle: “I think what’s happened here is the police officers have done their very best….”
    No. 32 Sonny-Bill Williams: “It’s good to get the win over Papua-New Guinea, a strong Papua-New Guinea side, aahhhh….”
    No. 31 John Palino: “Suggestions that I am somehow orchestrating some grand right-wing conspiracy to unseat Len after the election are so wrong…”
    No. 30 Alan Dershowitz: “I will give $10,000 to the PLO if you can find a historical fact in my book that you can prove to be false.”
    No. 29 John Banks: “I have nothing to hide and nothing to fear. And never, ever would I ever knowingly sign a false electoral return. Never ever would I ever.”

    No. 28 John Kerry: “…we are especially sensitive, Chuck and I, to never again asking any member of Congress to take a vote on faulty intelligence.”
No. 27 Lyse Doucet: “I am there for those without a voice.”
No. 26 Sam Wallace: “So here we are—Otahuhu. It’s just a great place to be, really.”

    No. 25 Margaret Thatcher: “…no British government involvement of any kind…with Khmer Rouge…”

    No. 24 John Key: “…at the end of the day I, like most New Zealanders, value the role of the fourth estate…”

No. 23 Jay Carney: “…expel Mr Snowden back to the U.S. to face justice…”

No. 22 Mike Bush: “Bruce Hutton had integrity beyond reproach.”

No. 21 Tim Groser: “I think the relationship is genuinely in outstanding form.”

No. 20 John Key: “But if the question is do we use the United States or one of our other partners to circumvent New Zealand law then the answer is categorically no.”

No. 19 Matthew Hooton: “It is ridiculous to say that unions deliver higher wages! They DON’T!”

    No. 18 Ant Strachan: “The All Blacks won the RWC 2011 because of outstanding defence!”

    No. 17 Stephen Franks: “Peter has been such a level-headed, safe pair of hands.”

    No. 16 Phil Kafcaloudes: “Tony Abbott…hasn’t made any mistakes over the past eighteen months.”

    No. 15 Donald Rumsfeld: “I did not lie… Colin Powell did not lie.”

No. 14 Colin Powell: “a post-9/11 nexus between Iraq and terrorist organizations…connections are now emerging…”
No. 13 Barack Obama: “Simply put, these strikes have saved lives.”

No. 12 U.K. Ministry of Defence: “Protecting the Afghan civilian population is one of ISAF and the UK’s top priorities.”

No. 11 Brendan O’Connor: “Australia’s approach to refugees is compassionate and generous.”

    No. 10 Boris Johnson: “Londoners have… the best police in the world to look after us and keep us safe.”

No. 9 NewstalkZB PR dept: “News you NEED! Fast, fair, accurate!”

No. 8 Simon Bridges: “I don’t mean to duck the question….”

    No. 7 Nigel Morrison: “Quite frankly, they’ve been VERY tough.”

    No. 6 Herald PR dept: “Congratulations—you’re reading New Zealand’s best newspaper.”

    No. 5 Rawdon Christie: “…a FORMIDABLE replacement, it seems, is Claudette Hauiti.”

No. 4 Willie and J.T.: “The X-Factor. Nah, nah, there’s some GREAT talent there!”

No. 3 John Key: “Yeah we hold MPs to a higher standard.”

No. 2 Colin Craig: “Oh, I have a GREAT sense of humour.”

    No. 1 Barack Obama: “Margaret Thatcher was one of the great champions of freedom and liberty.”

    • sockpuppet 5.1

      Oh Morrissey you card……..

      • Morrissey 5.1.1

        Was this writer, i.e., moi, perhaps a tad….well, mean to draw attention to the fact that Pamela Stirling is a no-hoper?

      • Tim 5.1.2

        Yea sock! What we need to counter such utter stupidity, when we can’t come up with any intelligent sort of response – is – ANOTHER Shopping Channel! Could even shove it on Freeview.

        • karol

          Yes – how many shopping channels do people need on Freeview? Does anyone watch one of them, let alone 3? Or is it more? The numbers of such channels seems to be growing daily.

    • greywarbler 5.2

      A grate list.

  6. there is some good/cool stuff in this one..


    “..From molotov cocktail Coke bottles – to the Guerrilla Girls’s feminist fights for gender equality –

    – here’s a selection of the most highly charged political art in history..”

    phillip ure..

  7. a piece in defence of link-baiting..

    ..arguing the quality of the baited-content is what really matters..

    (..which brings us to whoar..eh..?..)


    phillip ure..

  8. veutoviper 9

    John Banks – Judical Review hearing, 27 Nov.

    With all that is currently going on re the appalling Roastbusters issues, Dunne’s flights of fancy as to his power to dictate coalition terms, and now the Nat super/accommodation rort, Banks has slipped well down the priorities list.

    However, I read Penny Bright’s latest update last night on OM 10 Nov (thanks Penny) and this morning read Justice Heath’s minute linked to on Penny’s website.


    In brief, Justice Heath (who is to hear the application for judicial review on 27 Nov) has raised as an alternative or addition to the judicial review, the possibility of the case being transferred to the High Court under section 28J of the District Court Act. It would then be open to Banks to apply under section 347 of the Crimes Act to have the charges dropped.

    Personally, I have not taken this as Justice Heath attempting to ‘help Banks out of his difficult spot’; rather as Justice Heath rightly pointing out another legal option open. (I hope so anyway!)

    I am not a lawyer but had many years of having to find my way around legislation, understand it etc, so being the pedantic person I am, looked up the sections of the District Court Act and Crimes Act referred to by Justice Heath.

    Of interest is that these specific sectons of both Acts appear to have been repealed as of 1 July 2013 – but can presumably still apply in the Banks case because the original procecution application, hearings etc started prior to the repeal of these sections.

    (In the case of s28J of the D C Act, new provisions for transfer between the District Court and High Court have been added to the D C Act. I have not found any replacement provisions for S347 of the Crimes Act, but don’t have time to check this further today. )

    So, I for one anyway it will be watching closely what both Banks’ counsel and the Solicitor-General decide on this alternative raised by Justice Heath. In the hopes that Banks does not get off on legal technicalities etc.

    Penny Bright- hopefully you will keep us informed of further developments. I have appreciated you doing so to date, and thought you might be interested in my quick research.

    • Murray Olsen 9.1

      “Getting a 347” used to mean that the police had made a charge based on insufficient evidence and a judge had thrown it out rather than waste court time. Since a judge has already ruled that Banks should go to trial, it’d be a pretty low blow if they used this to let him walk.

      • veutoviper 9.1.1

        Thanks for that, Murray, although it now leaves me wondering (a) about Justice Heath raising it; and (b) why it (s347) has been repealed (if it has not been replaced elsewhere – haven’t had time to check this further but I am curious as to why it was repealed if it has not been replaced).

        It would be a low blow if s347 allowed Banks to walk – hope that was not J Heath’s intention. OTOH it was not just one DC judge who ruled that Banks should go to trial (Gittos). but Judge Mill of Wellington DC also seemed to think that there was a case to answer, as per my comment on OM on 31 Oct.

        Open mike 31/10/13

  9. Morrissey 10

    Willie and J.T. are disgusting.
    But they are not unique….

    With all the attention on the hapless, hopeless Radio Vile comedians Willie and Hatey recently, some people seem to have forgotten that there is another radio station that has been sticking up for woman-beaters for years….


  10. amirite 11

    The disturbing incident with the police commissioner Marshal tracking and contacting the blogger who criticised him has gone semi-public, callers are discussing this on Radio Live morning talkback.

    • Jimmie 11.1

      Not so disturbing when the blogger left his name and contact details on the police website along with a compaint.

      Didn’t really need the GCSB to track him down then did he? And after laying a complaint he was too chicken to receive a call from the Commissioner following up about the complaint.

      Slightly paranoid I guess. Not really James Bond stuff as was first portrayed to be honest.


      • weka 11.1.1

        If I left a complaint on the police website I certainly wouldn’t be expecting the Commissioner to phone me on a Sunday. An email asking to make contact would be more appropriate.

        • Rogue Trooper

          I’d expect the officers carrying out checks around the corner one dark night to abruptly jump in their car and follow me home on my push-bike, then to linger in front of my whare with their headlights shining upon me as I shake my head and proceed round to open the back door… oh wait… 😉

        • Huginn

          Yeah, but if he did phone me, I would take the opportunity to tell him what was on my mind.
          I think it’s great that he called.

  11. FYI

    URGENT ‘Open Letter’ to all New Zealand MPs:

    Please confirm YOU will not vote for the New Zealand International Convention Centre (‘Sky City money-laundering’) Bill

    Please discuss this as a matter of urgency at the Cabinet meeting today, and at your Party caucuses tomorrow, Tuesday 12 November 2013: and confirm that YOU will NOT vote for the New Zealand International Convention Centre Bill at its ‘third reading’ because ‘due diligence’ has not been done on the increased risk of money-laundering.


    A) Open Letter /OIA request to the Minister of Economic Development Steven Joyce:

    6 November 2013

    “Why are you continuing with the International Convention Centre (Sky City money-laundering) Bill?

    Dear Minister,

    I note that the International Convention Centre Bill is now at the Committee Stage: on today’s Parliamentary Order Paper:


    Please provide the following information which confirms:

    1) That you have considered the following OIA reply from OFCANZ, which shows that they have not done any ‘due diligence’ on the increased risk of money-laundering with the International Convention Centre Bill.


    2) That you as the Minister of Economic Development, are knowingly and willingly, continuing to push the International Convention Centre Bill.through Parliament, although this OIA reply from OFCANZ, shows that they have not done any ‘due diligence’ on the increased risk of money-laundering, as outlined in the following Regulatory Impact Statement.


    (See paras 95 – 111 )

    Potential risk of money laundering

    95 Cash intensive industries such as casinos are attractive to money laundering activity. New Zealand’s National Risk Assessment 2010 assessed casinos as presenting moderate to high risk of money laundering.

    For this reason, casinos (including all SkyCity casinos) are subject to the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of
    Terrorism Act 2009 (the AML/CFT Act), which comes into force on 30 June 2013. …”




    B) ‘Open Letter ‘ / OIA to Prime Minister John Key:

    24 October 2013
    ‘Open Letter’/OIA to NZ Prime Minister John Key:

    ”Why have you not ensured that ‘due diligence’ was carried out over the increased risk of money-laundering with the International Convention Centre (Sky City) Bill”?

    Dear Prime Minister,

    As an ‘anti-corruption’ campaigner, (and 2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate), I am deeply concerned at the apparent lack of ‘due diligence’, by yourself, as Prime Minister of New Zealand (‘perceived’ to be ‘the least corrupt country in the world’ ) regarding the increased risk of money-laundering arising from the International Convention Centre (Sky City deal) Bill?


    Please provide all information which confirms why you failed to do ‘due diligence’ and consult the ‘lead agency’ (OFCANZ) who has responsibility for “making it harder to launder money“,regarding the increased risk of money-laundering arising from the International Convention Centre (Sky City deal) Bill.

    c) ‘Open Letter’ to Robert Simpson, Auckland Council Principal Policy Analyst re: ‘Due diligence on the increased risk of money-laundering arising from the International Convention Centre (Sky City) Bill:

    (See http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz/ and scroll down to this item, to find ‘Open Letter’ and reply:

    Increased risk of money-laundering at Sky City – no ‘due diligence’ by Auckland Council?
    November 4, 2013 | Author Penny
    4 November 2013

    Local Government Information and Meetings Act (LGOIMA) request to Auckland Council and their reply:

    SKY CITY AUCKLAND COUNCIL Penny Bright NZICC Information Request (Oct 13) (3)

    SKY CITY AUCKLAND COUNCIL 120928 Submission process flowchart (1)

    C) 29 October 2013

    Robert Simpson | Principal Policy Analyst
    Strategic Advice | Auckland Council
    ‘Open Letter ‘ to Robert Simpson, Auckland Council Principal Policy Analyst
    re: ‘Due diligence on the increased risk of money-laundering arising from the International Convention Centre (Sky City) Bill.

    D) Please be advised that at 12 noon today, myself and fellow community ‘Public Watchdog’ Lisa Prager will be meeting with Auckland District Commander, SuperIntendent Michael Clement, to discuss the lack of ‘due diligence’ on the increased risk of money-laundering arising from the New Zealand International Convention Centre Bill, and the potentially increased risk of organised crime in the Auckland region.

    E) Please be advised that I shall be attending the Australian Public Sector Anti-Corruption Conference to be held in Sydney from 26 – 28 November 2013, where I shall be raising this, amongst other matters with international anti-corruption experts.

    (Please be reminded that I attended the 2009 Australian Public Sector Anti-Corruption Conference, and 2010 Transparency International Anti-Corruption Conference).

    I’m sure that the following ‘Action Plan’, upon which I campaigned as the 4th polling Auckland Mayoral candidate (obtaining 11,723 votes), will be of interest to both fellow delegates, and speakers (a number of whom I have already met), and Australian media.


    Yours sincerely,

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption / anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’

    2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate

  12. Anne 13

    There seems to be a reasonable explanation amirite. Rhinocrates (as he is known here) had apparently left a message on the police complaints website last Thursday. That is apparently where Marshall obtained the contact information. Unfortunately Marshall’s call to Rhinocrates coincided with some police criticism he had made on the Public Address site yesterday, so not unnaturally he thought it was connected to those remarks.

    As has been suggested Marshall’s intentions were probably honourable, but it was a mistake to make a cold call like that and especially on a Sunday afternoon when you would least expect it.

    • Jimmie 13.1

      Not really a mistake – just his paranoid reaction to it.

      If I got sick from eating at a fast food restaurant and made an online complaint and then subsequently received a call from the NZ CEO to discuss my complaint I would be over the moon that they were taking my complaint seriously for the CEO to take time out of their day to talk about it.

      What Rhinocrates should have done was listen to the Commissioner, politely discuss the points he raised in his complaint and suggest what the Police could do to fix the situation. I mean if he wasn’t prepared to do that why bother making a complaint in the first place?

      What you don’t do is slam the phone down and go shrieking online about police states and evil spying and conveniently leave out the fact that he had supplied his own details to the police.

      Peter Marshall is probably sitting at his desk wondering what he did wrong.

      • One Anonymous Knucklehead 13.1.1

        Perhaps he forgot how the NZ Police treat political activists, and how that informs said activists’ impressions of said Police. It’s all about perception, Jimmie. I think I would have listened to Marshall too, but I completely understand Rhino’s reaction.

        Still, it seems they are reaching out to us 🙂

        • Rogue Trooper

          from The Other Side of Midnight

        • King Kong

          Nah, just another internet warrior who stridently spits their bile when hidden behind a screen but is actually a gutless coward when it comes to real life interactions.

          • Rogue Trooper

            and how many guerrilla might there be in this troop of “gutless cowards”…

          • phillip ure

            @ ‘hidden behind a screen’..

            um..!..why did yr parents name you ‘king’..?

            ..especially when they had a sirname like ‘kong’..?

            ..school must have been hell for you..

            ..phillip ure..

            • King Kong

              I use a pseudonym for professional reasons which I understand is not an issue that you face, having not been employed for a while.

              I can assure you though, that I wouldn’t go weak at the knees if I was contacted by anyone in authority to discuss something I had officially registered my interest in.

              • peoples’ choice of pseudonyms is fascinating..

                ..slightly further down we have ‘naturesong’..

                ..who may well be a west coast miner..

                ..but who..going on that choice of name..probably isn’t..

                ..whereas your choice of king kong..?

                ..are you seeing/labeling yourself as kong as raging ape..?

                ..or kong as broken-hearted/futile-quest/in love/out of place/captive..?

                ..an essentially sad figure..?

                ..(i dunno why..but i am leaning to ‘raging-ape’..eh..?..)

                ..and before wholesale dumping on rhino..

                ..consider that he/she was quite clear in this forum that they are autistic..and have communication-issues..


                (oh..!..and congratulations on yr ‘professional’ ’employment’..eh..?..)

                ..phillip ure..

              • emergency mike

                “I can assure you though, that I wouldn’t go weak at the knees if I was contacted by anyone in authority to discuss something I had officially registered my interest in.”

                But then, I’m guessing you’re not autistic like rhino. Am I right?

                • King Kong

                  I though I read somewhere that we are all Autistic.

                  • McFlock

                    it’s a spectrum.

                  • emergency mike

                    “I though I read somewhere that we are all Autistic.”

                    In the sense that we are all part genius and part stupid, but that does’t make everyone a stupid genius does it kk? Only a small % of people have problems relating to others to the point of being diagnosed as autistic.

                    I’ve lived with a person with Asperger’s and I can see how getting an unexpected phone call from the police commissioner would be disturbing and intimidating. Yes even if they left their name and number on an online form.

                    Maybe you’d be chuffed about getting such a call, but guess what? Not everyone is like you. Thank God.

                    • chris73

                      So why put the name and number on the form if you don’t want to be contacted?

                    • emergency mike

                      I’m afraid I’m not privy to that information chris, maybe try using your imagination? Perhaps he/she thought that by filling in the fields it would help the complaint to be looked at? Maybe just habit? I really don’t know. But that doesn’t change my distaste for kk calling an autistic person a ‘gutless coward’ because they got freaked out by an unexpected call from the police commissioner.

                      Which is what I was talking about.

        • Chooky

          lol…I bet they had a good laugh at Rhino’s reaction ( I certainly did) ….they were just trying to be friendly!

          “Look out – the pigs are trying tracking their critics.”

      • Anne 13.1.2

        You’re blind to some realities Jimmie. You don’t check out the background to some people’s reactions. You don’t think – typical right-wing response. Go away to some place where your brand of non thinking and stupidity is acceptable.

      • Naturesong 13.1.3

        “Peter Marshall is probably sitting at his desk wondering what he did wrong.”
        He’s spoilt for choice at the moment

      • Draco T Bastard 13.1.4

        If I got sick from eating at a fast food restaurant and made an online complaint and then subsequently received a call from the NZ CEO to discuss my complaint I would be over the moon that they were taking my complaint seriously for the CEO to take time out of their day to talk about it.

        That would be because you’re an authoritarian follower and kowtow to anyone with more wealth and power than you. You’re actual response to said call would probably be ZOMG, a randian super-hero called me. You’d then take everything he said as gospel and fail to “politely discuss the points he raised in his complaint” which is, most likely, why the commissioner called.

        • Jimmie

          You should study psychology DTB. I am here sitting in my chair weeping as you have spoken my life story before you online……to diagnose my personality and to be able to project future conversations from one paragraph is nothing short of outstanding.

          I mean what a gift especially from someone with only one eye.

      • McFlock 13.1.5

        I’d probably say both “yes” and “no” to that – if it was a pr stunt (“Commissioner Cares”), then it seems the commissioner forgot that some people have legitimate or even paranoid fears about the police (a characteristic that is probably weighted towards people who make complaints on the website), a problem that the NZCEO of McD’s probably doesn’t face so much.

        It could be that the blogger raised an extremely important point that the commissioner wanted to discuss (or at least reassure the blogger that their concerns were being addressed), although the above caveat still comes to mind. As others have suggested, easing in with a call from a p.a. might have been nice.

        The possible error on the part of the blogger was then to tell everybody on their regular websites, using their regular pseudonym. He’s basically told the police exactly which handles he uses – not that they’d be overly interested, but still…

        • Tat Loo (CV)

          Yeah, that last point you raised has crossed my mind as well.

          • Tiger Mountain

            Does seem weird that one blogger only (that has been made public) gets called in Marshall’s personal charm offensive. Air NZ’s Rob Fyfe used to personally email hundreds of people (union supporters that had sent emails to him) into the small hours during tense times when he was taking on the workers there.

            Rhino/Cracklite should maybe take a break from this stoush because the cops do play for keeps and are experts at harassing the vulnerable as BLiP’s extensive list showed the other day.

            • karol

              Agreed, TM.

              By the way, nobody seems to have remembered that Peter Marshall’s days as commissioner already looked numbered last month,

              Stuff reported on 19 Oct 2013:

              The police are searching for a new police commissioner – as Peter Marshall prepares to step down.

              He was appointed in 2010 and said he would serve only three years.

              The State Services Commission is advertising for the position of “chief executive and police commissioner”. The job title invites speculation about whether a non-sworn – or civilian – applicant could be considered.

            • McFlock

              I suspect blogging is irrelevant/unknown, and it was based purely on the complaint to the police website.

              No idea what they wrote, or whether marshall gives random complaints the personal touch, or whether R/C raised something serious that was kicked upstairs automatically (e.g. maybe he wanted to be informed about specific matters that might be raised by members of the public from time to time, e.g. serious allegations).

  13. Tracey 14

    Peter Marshall is probably sitting at his desk wondering what he did wrong.”

    You might be right which explains the schamozzle of police investigations… focused but on the wrong stuff

  14. Tracey 15

    Veuto on banks and justice heath…

    I read it and wondered if heath wasnt sending them a “think very carefully” message but not in a good way for banks.

  15. weka 16

    “You are posting comments too quickly, slow down”

    Has the time frame on that got longer recently? It’s just come up and I haven’t posted for 30 mins.

  16. dv 17

    From Public address

    Willie and JT are gone, for at least the rest of the year:


    Monday, 11 November, 2013


    Willie Jackson and John Tamihere will not return to RadioLIVE for the rest of 2013. The announcement was made on RadioLIVE just after 12noon today by the two broadcasters.

    Announcement from Willie Jackson and John Tamihere:

    This will be our last show on RadioLIVE for this year.

    We will be taking the next few weeks to review what happened last week with the management here, and agree what action needs to be taken.

    We do not condone rape in any way and did not intend to blame the victims. Rape is a terrible crime and the victims who come forward deserve support and respect.

    We deeply regret the comments we made last week and the upset they caused so many people.

    We also want to apologise to the clients of RadioLIVE who’ve had to deal with negative feedback to their businesses because they advertise in our show.

    Closer to home, we regret the impact this has had on our wives, children, grandchildren and communities. We also apologise to the staff at RadioLIVE and throughout the MediaWorks whanau who have had to deal with the fallout.

    RadioLIVE will update you on our discussions and plans as is appropriate.

    As this will be our last time on the radio this year, we wish you and your families a safe and happy Christmas and send our aroha to you all.

    JT & Willie
    – –

    MediaWorks Radio Chief Executive Belinda Mulgrew says: “After discussions with Willie Jackson and John Tamihere it has been agreed that Willie and John will be off air for the rest of 2013.

    “We continue to review the situation, and I would like to reiterate that MediaWorks in no way condones the actions of the ‘Roast Busters’ or any violence against women.

    • Draco T Bastard 17.2

      MediaWorks whanau

      That’s disturbing. A corporation is not whanau no matter how much that they like to pretend that they’re family.

      PS, got the “You are posting comments too quickly, slow down” error when first posting this.

      • TheContrarian 17.2.1

        You realise that a corporation is made up of people who work together, laugh together and in some cases form tight bonds of friendship, right Draco?

        • Tat Loo (CV)

          In a way you are right TC. There can certainly be a very tribal character to some corporate work groups.

          • TheContrarian

            My last role in corporate we ate together, drank together, shared good news and bad, supported each other and celebrated successes together – all the actions of a family unit which I hardly found ‘disturbing’.

          • TheContrarian

            Look at the dynamics of small towns who have a large employer (meat works, coal plant etc). There is a very strong sense of family among those groups.

        • Draco T Bastard

          And they can all be fired/made redundant/over-worked/etc without the corporation or its managers batting an eyelid.

          • TheContrarian

            So? A corporation is made up of people who work together, laugh together and in some cases form tight bonds of friendship. There is nothing disturbing about someone or some organisation self describing themselves as a family.

            • Draco T Bastard

              Yes there is – the total lack of support from the corporation to its employees. The fact that the corporation considers its employees expendable.

              • TheContrarian

                So? There are still real kinships in corporations. Real connections are made and real enduring friendships follow. It isn’t disturbing and you are making extremely broad statements as if it is always as you say. It isn’t. I’ve worked in poisons were I have had CEO’s go to bat for their staff and treat them as they would their own family. It isn’t disturbing.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  here are still real kinships in corporations.

                  But not between the corporation and the employees. This is the point that you’ve spent an entire afternoon ignoring.

                  • TheContrarian

                    That is simply not true. Because it happens in some does not equal it happening in all cases. Your black and white thinking strikes again

                    • Tat Loo (CV)

                      The issue is that a foreign residing board of directors doesn’t care how closely bonded your work group is with your local management TC. Chances are they’ve never ever met any of you or set foot in your office/facility.

                    • TheContrarian

                      That’s quite right. But Draco is making a broad statement which simply isn’t true

                • Rogue Trooper

                  that would be positions (seems alcohol has a lot of explaining to do) 😉

    • weka 17.3

      Good move RadioLive. A proper apology this time. What’s the bet someone else wrote it.

    • Ron 17.4

      It would seem from comments from Radio Live that they may be still paying the two announcers. When asked they refused to confirm that they were still paying which I guess means they are.

  17. captain hook 18

    what is really important at the moment is National sucking up to the rural industrialists and giving them carte blance to foul the county’s waterways as they see fit.
    Supposedly farmers care about the environment but that just seems to be as shibboleth for them to hide their ignorance behind and carry on regardless.
    More lies retailed as truth.

  18. Please replace the now vacant space with Radio Live with Matthew Hooton.

  19. Tracey 20

    Anthony if hooten replaced the it would become a vacant space.

  20. Tat Loo (CV) 21

    How Labor hit it’s lowest vote since 1903

    Reads like a list of wasted opportunities where the electorate had had enough of Labor. And many core Labor blue collar and skilled trades vote walking away from the party.


  21. Rogue Trooper 22

    Crisis Brewing in US – Israeli Relations
    just like ABCees.

  22. Rogue Trooper 23

    Regional Insecurity threatens Gulf Food Security


    Australia’s Rising Debt
    -reduced tax-take yet cuts for the already well-off.

  23. lprent 24

    Urrgh.. Been off doing other things for the last few days.

    Testing Beta release 1.06 RC4 – which has now gone gold (the last bug was with shm_open – the block of shared memory had a lock error after several days of stress testing). Getting dragged off by Lyn at ungodly hours of the morning to cart video equipment around for blogacademy that she was shooting. Catching up on sleep (or trying to). Doing the 18 month updates of my home systems.The latter largely dropped me offline for the weekend with video driver issues.

    But I see that the tireless spam bots are in action. 380 unsorted auto-spam out of the several thousand that got sent over the weekend. If anyone’s legit comments got caught in that deluge, they will shortly be popping out.

    I also see that I have a problem with IPs at present since the site updates last week. They’re reporting a gateway address..

    • Rogue Trooper 24.1

      there was an article on te newz about the growth of blogging in the fashion industry, in contrast to the traditional glossy magazines (still coveted by the tactile).
      A recent phenomenon I have taken an interest in is the sheer number and variety of niche hard-copy magazines that are published; more variations on Easyriders , Popular Mechanics and NME than a rascal could chew through in a lifetime. 😀

    • weka 24.2

      Wondered where you had been 🙂 Did you see this? http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11112013/#comment-725600

  24. Ennui 25

    Things seen – on a standard NZ weekend – that give insight into the soul of the common Kiwi…
    Few drinks post work Friday, nearly get knocked over by sober driver (assuming he was) driving well over limit…young passenger shouted abuse as they passed…charming.

    Got on bus, packed. Woman standing in front of me very obviously late stages of pregnancy…every seated person looking straight through her. Not one offered her a seat. I asked who would, got dagger eyes from a seated young woman….

    Watched Luther on TV, said it had course language and violence…cool…the violence bits were so graphic, psycho killer stuff…on prime time TV….

    Saw man at dairy run out door and give a woman her purse she left on counter, much thanking.

    More TV, rugby test, yawn, the 672 match of the “season”, go Richie and Dan….how does a man stay interested?

    Turned to music channel…Mylie Cyrus pretending to have sex on stage…dressed up in next to nothing….looked just like her fans drunk and behaving like louts in heels in Courtney Place.

    Put the Roast lads well into context as “us” methinks.

    • Rogue Trooper 25.1

      yes, The Hangover 2 was pushing the boundaries on tele.
      I was cycling along last week and saw a purse by the driver’s side door of a car parked in front of recently widowed woman’s flat. Instinctively, broke as I often am, I stopped and returned the purse to the front door.

      • karol 25.1.1

        Good deed well done, RT.

      • greywarbler 25.1.2

        I paid $30 for part of photcopying a/c of poor bene who is trying to create opportunities and the habit of political discussion with meetings flyers posters etc. She has spent $1000 in past year holding the meetings, getting venues, photocopying etc etc. She sees the need and has paid out of her little income but cannot get grant as in past to help with her dental bill of $300. Good people being crushed by this neo liberalism. Little help for those amongst us who need it, whether community and society stalwarts or not.

        More awhi for Aotearoa please.

  25. Morrissey 26

    Ex-Cowboy Michael Irvin: a decent, thoughtful man
    —oh sorry, cancel that….

    I find this depressing. This guy has a brain, as we see in the first clip. But in this totalitarian climate, he feels obliged to spout the most pernicious nonsense in the second clip…..

    CLIP No. 1: Is race still an issue in the NFL?
    In this clip, former Dallas Cowboys star Michael Irvin eloquently explains why racist language is unacceptable. He describes the racist putdowns of a team-mate by a white Miami Dolphins player, Richie Incognito, as “the systematic breaking down of another man by using derogatory language.”

    But then, just when you think there’s an American sportsman with a brain, a heart and a conscience, he goes and mouths this piece of offensive propaganda….

    CLIP No. 2: ‘Who Must Play Inspired’: Salute to service

  26. North 27

    Weirdo Colin Craig looks very excited on TV3 News tonight. For ShonKey Python it can at least be said he’s straight-up if brazen – he’ll do whatever it takes to retain power. There is a critical point though…….

    • karol 27.1

      Key looking desperate.

    • chrissy 27.2

      Ha ha. key having to get into bed with an ego bigger than his. Good luck with that!!

    • Tim 27.3

      Reminds me of one of those Melbourne Lunar Park smiling faces on a chain ….. moving from Left to Right, Left to Right, waiting for some punter to throw ball and claim their prize if they get a direct hit.
      Even when they do “strike”, that smiling clown-like visage, representing goodness and wholesomeness just keeps on going.

      L 🙂 M 😉 r 🙂 L 🙂 M 😉 r 🙂 L 🙂 M 😉 r 🙂 L 🙂 M 😉 r 🙂 L 🙂 M 😉 r 🙂 L 🙂 M 😉 r 🙂

      Hey Col… I reckon a bit more teeth bleaching – it might trump a coiffure

  27. BLiP 28

    UK spies continue “quantum insert” attack via LinkedIn, Slashdot pages . . .

    . . . As part of the Turmoil system, the NSA places secret servers, codenamed Quantum, at key places on the Internet backbone. This placement ensures that they can react faster than other websites can. By exploiting that speed difference, these servers can impersonate a visited website to the target before the legitimate website can respond, thereby tricking the target’s browser to visit a Foxacid server.

    In the academic literature, these are called “man-in-the-middle” attacks and have been known to the commercial and academic security communities. More specifically, they are examples of “man-on-the-side” attacks.

    They are hard for any organization other than the NSA to reliably execute, because they require the attacker to have a privileged position on the Internet backbone and exploit a “race condition” between the NSA server and the legitimate website. This top-secret NSA diagram, made public last month, shows a Quantum server impersonating Google in this type of attack . . .

    • Tat Loo (CV) 28.1

      That is very interesting, and very concerning. Just another way for them to directly pick up your login details, passwords etc, imitating your email or banking provider.

  28. Pascal's bookie 29


    Colin Craig and Key interviewed separately by Gower.

  29. Anne 30

    The more Craig is interviewed the better I say. He’s such a total dork. Climate Change is all about sun spots and other planets. It’s got nothing to do with mankind. So says the dork.

    • Tat Loo (CV) 30.1

      Its amazing how such overwhelming and orchestrated media coverage is given to someone like him however. A political party with a handful of members, no MPs, and the policy depth of a puddle.

      • Pascal's bookie 30.1.1

        Not really. he gives good copy.


        No producer on earth would fail to run a story about a political leader, who the PM is saying he’ll deal with, when you have a quote of him blaming global warming on “the circulation of the planets”

      • bad12 30.1.2

        Yes the climax of the other weeks media blitz highlighting Craig and the (not christian) Conservatives was the Reid Poll on TV3, given the contorted nature of this particular poll the numbers given Craig’s Conservatives are questionable,

        If my memory serves me right the Conservatives have yet to rate in a Roy Morgan in the last few months and it will be ‘interesting’ to see if the events leading up to Labour weekend where National called in a lot of favors among it’s friendly editors and programers to run a series of stories on the Conservatives has boosted them in the minds of the electorate,

        The game being played here is a double edged sword as there is something about Craig that a lot of people will dislike at first sight without being able to elucidate that actual dislike, given that many of us see the current National Government’s numbers around 42-43% max it would seem that Slippery the Prime Minister is going to go ‘all in’ and bet His occupancy of the Treasury Benches after November 2014 on His ability to manufacture Colin Craig into an easily manipulated coalition partner,

        The obvious risk in doing so for Slippery and National is that the only support that Craig’s Conservatives can garner from the electorate comes directly from National’s own base, the other risk of course is that the voters in whichever electorate Craig tries to legitimize His political ambitions wave the middle finger in the air rejecting Him in the face of the PM’s obvious desperation…

        • emergency mike

          Yes the 3 news item had a distinct “Hey folks, we just want to talk to you a today about National’s new coalition option. Have ya heard about this?” feel to it. Key has ruled out any ‘cups of tea’ this time, but this seems to be the set up for one. Put the jug on John

          I also noticed that of the numbers Gower was going on about, Labour up, Greens Down, Conservative Party vote, none of them were as big as the margin of error that was quietly displayed at the top of the screen without a mention: 3.1%.

          One number did crack the margin of error though, National down 3.2%.

    • karol 30.2

      I disagree, Anne. I’ve seen Craig a few times on Citizen A. In a longer discussion he can sound fairly reasonable on some issues.

      He says things that, while they seem crazy to us (eg re climate change), there are enough people that would be nodding in agreement. Craig doesn’t need to get a popular following in NZ. He just needs to appeal to an electorate, and/or 5% of the population.

      Last election, I was surprised when someone I know mentioned him as someone she would be inclined to vote for, as a result of agreeing with lots of things he says. And that person is quite intelligent.

      It’s always dangerous to underestimate the potential opposition.

      • Rogue Trooper 30.2.1

        I hope you wash your mouth out karol 😉

      • bad12 30.2.2

        Indeed, in the Rodney electorate Craig came a distant second in 2011, of interest was the 2000 odd votes He took from the National candidate, 1000 odd from the death throes of ACT, and hopefully with the election of David Cunliffe as Labour leader Craig in 2014 will not be able to take 2000 and something more of the Labour vote as He did in 2011,

        It will be interesting to see where the new boundaries are drawn in Auckland, will the new Parliamentary seat be to the North of the city or in the central area,

        Where ever Craig stands Labour need get a presence in the electorate with Labour’s leaders spending time campaigning there early on in the cycle to try and blunt the rise of Craig considering that National are more or less openly campaigning on His behalf…

      • Pascal's bookie 30.2.3

        Sure, there’s probably enough points out there for Craig to be relavant. But it’s, as they say, a dinnimmic environment.

        the closer Craig looks to being really at around 3%, the more pressure goes on key to talk about a deal. that can actually help craig get points as it won;t be a wasted vote.

        However, the more he cozies up to Craig, the more he pisses off people in national who aren’t completely daft.

        He’s got a fine line to walk. If Key refuses to deal with Craig, or is dismissive of his views, in an attempt to maintain his moderate image, then that pisses off National voters who are sympathetic to whatever Craig was atlking about.

        Look at those comments Craig made about the Treaty and global warming. that’s not far at all from where National was just 6 or 7 years ago, when Brash scred them heaps of votes talking on those issues. If Key describes those comments as crazy or radical, then Craig could gain votes.

        Key has to be very careful about how he manages this shit. It’s a swamp of their own making.

        • Tat Loo (CV)

          Key has to be very careful about how he manages this shit. It’s a swamp of their own making.

          That they are going to need to traverse through for the next 12 months. Ouch.

        • JK

          Key is not dismissive of Craig, PB. He’s very obviously keen on him getting into Parliament – as per tonights TV3 News. And those comments Craig made about the Treaty and Maori are just the sort of thing rightwingers like to hear. He’ll take over from Act and if there’s a “blue” seat hanging around after the boundary changes in the northern part of Auckland, that’s where he’ll be ……. and the Nats will all vote for him there. This is manipulative scarey rightwing stuff – just the sort of thing Key relishes.

        • Lanthanide

          Put it another way: National really can’t risk the Conservatives gobbling up a sizeable chunk of their party vote and then not getting any seats. I bet they’re rueing not dropping the threshold to 4% now – Conservatives could easily reach that mark, but I think they’ll struggle to get to 5%.

          NZFirst clocking up 4.6% really helped National in 2008. They’ll be really hurt in 2014 if the Conservatives follow in those footsteps.

        • Rogue Trooper

          it is sad state of affairs indeed. Long may they ooze.

      • Penny Bright 30.2.4

        Why does Martyn Bradbury give Colin Craig political ‘oxygen’ on his show?

        Meanwhile – he bans me from making ANY comments on his Daily Blog.

        Go figure……

        Penny Bright

  30. According to the ‘Provisional’ Order Paper for the NZ Parliament, the New Zealand International Convention Centre Bill is set down for its ‘third reading’ on Tuesday 12 November 2013:


    Tuesday, 12 November 2013
    Business before the House

    Government orders of the day

    Name of bill Stage of Bill

    Minister in charge consideration no Times for debate

    1 New Zealand International Convention Centre Bill 140–2 12 x 10 m speeches

    Hon Steven Joyce Third reading

    The NZ International Convention Centre Bill, effectively covers and facilitates money-laundering, because there has been no ‘due diligence’ on the increased risk of money-laundering, by OFCANZ, (Organised and Financial Crime Agency of NZ) the body tasked with:

    “Leading, coordinating or contributing to policy or legislative changes to make it harder for organised criminals to operate. There will be opportunities to do so by, for example, making it harder to launder money, or obtain false identities, or by increasing information sharing. …”


    Yet – this OFCANZ OIA reply proves that this purported ‘leading’ agency for fighting money-laundering, did NO ‘due diligence’ on the increased risk of money-laundering arising from the NZ International Convention Centre Bill:


    The NZ International Convention Centre Bill, thus effectively undermines the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Act 2009:


    3 Purpose

    (1)The purposes of this Act are—

    (a)to detect and deter money laundering and the financing of terrorism; and

    (b)to maintain and enhance New Zealand’s international reputation by adopting, where appropriate in the New Zealand context, recommendations issued by the Financial Action Task Force; and

    (c)to contribute to public confidence in the financial system.

    (2)Accordingly, this Act facilitates co-operation amongst reporting entities, AML/CFT supervisors, and various government agencies, in particular law enforcement and regulatory agencies.

    There are a series of provisions in the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Act 2009, which deal with the need for ‘DUE DILIGENCE’:

    Subpart 1—Customer due diligence
    11Customer due diligence
    12Reliance on risk assessment when establishing level of risk
    13Basis for verifying identity
    Standard customer due diligence
    14Circumstances when standard customer due diligence applies
    15Standard customer due diligence: identity requirements
    16Standard customer due diligence: verification of identity requirements
    17Standard customer due diligence: other requirements
    Simplified customer due diligence
    18Circumstances when simplified customer due diligence applies
    19Simplified customer due diligence: identity requirements
    20Simplified customer due diligence: verification of identity requirements
    21Simplified customer due diligence: other requirements
    Enhanced customer due diligence
    22Circumstances when enhanced customer due diligence applies
    23Enhanced customer due diligence: identity requirements
    24Enhanced customer due diligence: verification of identity requirements
    25Enhanced customer due diligence: other requirements
    26Politically exposed person
    27Wire transfers: identity requirements
    28Wire transfers: verification of identity requirements
    29Correspondent banking relationships
    30New or developing technologies, or products, that might favour anonymity
    Ongoing customer due diligence and account monitoring
    31Ongoing customer due diligence and account monitoring
    Reliance on third parties
    32Reliance on member of designated business group
    33Reliance on other reporting entities or persons in another country
    34Reliance on agents
    35Use of information obtained from third party conducting customer due diligence
    36Protection of personal information and designated business groups
    37Prohibitions if customer due diligence not conducted
    38Prohibition on false customer names and customer anonymity
    39Prohibition on establishing or continuing business relationship involving shell bank


    So, how is it that the New Zealand International Convention Centre Bill, can be railroaded through Parliament, without any ‘DUE DILIGENCE’, on the increased risk of money-laundering, which the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Act 2009, is supposed to help prevent?

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption / anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’
    2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate


  31. Murray Olsen 32

    Whoever forms the next government should drop student loan interest from the exorbitant 5.9% that’s being charged at the moment. Something like 0% would be my preference, with the scheme done away with completely, but in the meantime 3% would be more reasonable.

    • Tat Loo (CV) 32.1

      Making the younger generation pay more and more is the ethos of the (rulership) age.

    • Lanthanide 32.2

      You only pay interest on your student loan if you leave the country. Seems fair to me.

    • Olwyn 32.3

      And stop charging compound interest on the loans of those who are overseas. That one is a complete and utter rort: don’t bother to invest in your own country, just drive people overseas to earn their living, then track them down and rob them.

      • Murray Olsen 32.3.1

        Yep. That’s why most of us are overseas. The jobs don’t exist at home, so why should they make a profit out of us?

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