Open mike 12/01/2023

72 comments on “Open mike 12/01/2023 ”

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1. Anker 1

   12 January 2023 at 9:55 am

   • On a previous thread about Maori language I commented that naming Ministries Maori names provided some issues for me (but was keen to point out I realize the world doesn’t revolve around me). In the current climate if seems if people query the use of Maori language they are often branded racist.

   indded there was a case last year where a Bluebird employer spoke on their personal FB page about being sick of Maori language being everywhere eg hospitals. Someone dobbed this worker in to their employer and she lost her job. This happened in the context of Te Reo Whittakers chocolate.

   so my real life example was last night, late at night, I went to hospital as an elderly relative was there unexpectedly. They were in a special unit waiting for a bed. The unit had a Maori name that I didn’t recognise. I was running around outside in the dark and then inside trying to find it, trying to remember that name when I came across the late staff in the corridors.

   I was a little frantic and would have appreciated a simple name (maybe a colour) to help me locate where I needed to be. I will likely not need to know this name again (hopefully).
   • weka 1.1

     12 January 2023 at 10:26 am

     I don't believe people should lose their jobs for saying casual racist things on their own sm account.

     I also think it's ok to name racism when we see it.

     The issue you had with the hospital, I've had that in other contexts with names in English. We used to have Southland Regional Council, Canterbury Regional Council etc and then many rebranded and it's hard to know what an organisation is by its name. This is stupid imo, and serves as a barrier to public engagement, much language is now designed for in house.

     However with regards to te reo Māori, imagine what its like for people in hospitals for whom English is a second language, or for whom medical language is not easily understood. Using te reo makes those places more accessible for Māori. Whose needs should predominate? To my mind, the need to save te reo is a high priority, and we are all going through a period of change and some of that will be hard. The solution to not getting Māori names isn't to remove the names but to increase literacy across the population.

     (it would make sense at this point in time to use both English and Māori in places like a hospital).

     Otherwise we are saying that te reo is not to be integrated into NZ fully, and yes I would call that racist. We have a Treaty we need to honour, Māori are one of the partners, and they have the right to be here fully in this culture. I don't accept that Pāhekā culture should dominate.
     • Sabine 1.1.1

       12 January 2023 at 11:04 am

       You don't have to favor anyone.

       Both languages should be used to describe what ever in Te Reo and English.

       Just like this

       Te Aka Whai Ora / Māori Health Authority

       https://www.futureofhealth.govt.nz/maori-health-authority/

       or like this

       https://www.health.govt.nz/

       Manatū Hauora Ministry of Health

       and well some what failing here as no english in the link

       https://www.tewhatuora.govt.nz/

       Te Whatu Ora Health NZ

       But we can also ignore this polite nonsense of putting both languages up and just use the one currently in favor, and thus ignoring the vast majority that do not speak the language at all and have no link to it – including many people who self identify as Maori, have no cultural claim to this language, might not be able to learn a foreign language easily, just to name a few issues around learning a foreign language specially as adults.
     • Anker 1.1.2

       12 January 2023 at 3:29 pm

       Using te reo makes those places more accessible for Māori. Whose needs should predominate?

       Well it should be about ease of access for everyone. I doubt there is anyone in NZ who only speaks Maori. New arrivals who speak little English will likely find learning Maori and English a tall order.

       "I don't accept that Pāhekā culture should dominate".

       I don't want to dominate anyone. I was telling an anecdote, largely because someone got sacked from their job for saying they are sick of seeing Maori everywhere, including hospitals. After last night, I can see a point to what they are saying.

       In honouring the Treaty then all signs should be in English and Te Reo.

       In the middle or rather very late at night in the dark and the cold and then in empty corridors, I thought make it as simple as possible. I have since heard other parts of the hospital are colour coded and it would have been good if their part was as well.
       • weka 1.1.2.1

         12 January 2023 at 3:34 pm

         ease of access in hospitals isn't just about the signage. It's also about culture. Hospitals are generally run along Pākehā lines. That has negative impacts on Māori.

         You can not want to dominate, but most Pākehā find the system suits them and don't understand why it not might suit Māori. That's a Pākehā dominated system whether you are part of it or not.

         After last night, I can see a point to what they are saying.

         Yes, but you also appear to be advocating for the segregation of Māori culture rather than the integration, and for Pākehā culture to remain dominant.
     • Mac1 1.1.3

       12 January 2023 at 4:53 pm

       Here's what National MP Stuart Smith said in 2021. He wanted Aotearoa banned from official public sector usage. Even some colleagues disagreed.

       https://www.newsroom.co.nz/national-mp-floats-ban-on-public-sector-using-aotearoa
       • Sacha 1.1.3.1

         12 January 2023 at 5:37 pm

         And who knows what the extremists in Act or Winston First might insist on during coalition negotiations.
   • Shanreagh 1.2

     12 January 2023 at 11:12 am

     If you have problems with word recognition, particularly of Maori words, then perhaps try a work around.

     If I had been looking for an unfamiliar place/word I would have written the word down and showed someone to ask them for directions. I always carry a pen and paper in my purse. Or looked for that name whenever I came to a sign board. Or taken a picture on my phone. This means that in looking at it you are refreshing yourself of the word and may remember it for future reference.

     Seeing as this is an ongoing problem, instead of just having a random piece of paper you could carry a small hardcovered notebook and enter the word there. Use it to find the directions then when you get home look it up online for meaning and enter the meaning against the word.

     By not accepting and doing you are really perpetuating the problem you have and not giving yourself the best chance to get around it/learn.

     When travelling many people write things down/carry images on their phones to ask for directions.

     Also when language learning travelling the hard covered book was what I used, I used to write local idiom to check meaning later.

     Otherwise we are saying that te reo is not to be integrated into NZ fully, and yes I would call that racist. We have a Treaty we need to honour, Māori are one of the partners, and they have the right to be here fully in this culture. I don't accept that Pāhekā culture should dominate.

     The hospitals I have been in usually have a name/ward number/colour code and colour lines in the corridors.

     Happy language learning. I am sure you will get better and better as you follow a language learning approach.
     • Anker 1.2.1

       12 January 2023 at 12:34 pm

       Shanreagh your suggestion is ridiculous.

       I was called out late at night for a family emergency.

       I had no idea I would have difficulty finding the unit and the last thing on my mind was, oh I must take my Maori to English notebook dictionary.

       I am not intending to learn Maori. If the state wanted me to, they should have provided it at school (as I have previously advocated for)
       • Shanreagh 1.2.1.1

         12 January 2023 at 1:25 pm

         Thanks for the suggestion is all that was required.

         It was well meant and has worked for me and many others in becoming familiar with language. I have learned French and German and the suggestion helped me tremendously to get to be comfortable in the surroundings. As it worked for me I suggested that it might work for you. I have also had flatmates from the UK & USA who have used this to note down NZ idiom that they did not understand.

         If you wish to persist in a stubborn sort of denial that we have a three language system then I guess that is up to you.

         I for one am tired of the complaints when you have one great advantage that many of us don't and that is a partner/spouse who is Maori and who would lovingly work with you if you wanted to lessen this fear you have. As my Maori husband did when we were married.

         Is there nothing you feel you can do, other than having the state pay for language lessons that would make it more comfortable for you.

         PS I have always found that in times of stress writing directions etc is a godsend

         PPS I was not suggesting carrying a dictionary but a wee notebook. Surely you would have written the name of the place down?
       • Shanreagh 1.2.1.2

         12 January 2023 at 1:46 pm

         Have you suggested to the health facility that they might need to look at the directions?

         Hopefully yes.

         Or are you going to continue with the great NZ character trait of becoming a 'moaning Minnie'.

         Life's too short
         • Shanreagh 1.2.1.2.1

           12 January 2023 at 9:55 pm

           A few easy words re Govt depts

           Manatu means Ministry

           Hauora means health

           Waka canoe/transport is used in Waka Kotahi

           Land Information NZ – a bit harder but Toitu te Whenua is an extract from the whakatauki (saying) 'the land alone endures'

           The full saying is 'Whatungarongaro te tangata toitū te whenua' people may come and go but the land alone endures.

           Taake is the word for tax. So Te Tari Taake is the department for taxes IRD

           Te Tari Kaumatua also is the Te Tari (Department) with a common word Kaumatua (elders) and is used in . – The Office for Seniors.

           By building up word recognition from common words such as Kaumatua, Waka we can give ourselves a chance at working out the names of the Govt Depts.
       • weka 1.2.1.3

         12 January 2023 at 2:51 pm

         I am not intending to learn Maori.

         Which you can choose not to do, but you then can't turn around and complain about not being able to understand common Māori words in mainstream usage.

         If the state wanted me to, they should have provided it at school (as I have previously advocated for)

         Pretty hard for the government to enact policy retrospectively. I would love to have learned te reo at school. I was a child of the 70s, a time when Māori were having to occupy ancestral land or go on land marches to get the state to take them seriously. Māori worked long and hard to save te reo and bring it back and it's still a battle.

         Had the state not practiced institutional racism for 150 years, we'd all be bilingual. I'm not sure how you think teaching te reo at school will work if people then don't use the language in everyday life eg hospitals, government departments, TV.
       • Incognito 1.2.1.4

         12 January 2023 at 4:07 pm

         The following are purely rhetorical questions that don’t need to be answered but could be pondered, if you wish.

         Did you learn at school how to use a computer or mobile phone and to navigate the internet? If no, when, where and why did you learn these skills?

         Did you choose any non-compulsory subjects at school? If yes, why?

         Did you learn any other different new skills and stuff after you finished school? If yes, why?

         Is school the (only?) place where you should be taught useful skills?

         Do you do always and everything the state ‘wants’ from you and nothing and never it does not ‘want’ from you? Or only when it suits you?

         Hospitals are confusing places. Medical emergencies are scary and stressful events. A trivial issue with the name of the unit, which could have been in any language, exacerbated and coloured your overall negative experience.
         • Tony Veitch 1.2.1.4.1

           13 January 2023 at 5:49 am

           We have a Labour government – of course Anker's experience was negative!
           • Incognito 1.2.1.4.1.1

             13 January 2023 at 12:33 pm

             She’ll be Right!
   • Corey Humm 1.3

     12 January 2023 at 11:46 am

     NZ should follow Canada's example and have English and Maori names for departments side by side as they do with English and French.

     If a govt department makes a press release or statement in English they immediately make one one in french.

     We should do that with English and Maori.

     It solves every issue.

     Its insane that there's no "/" after a govt department with a Maori name, it causes loads of problems and resentment and really seems to piss off the million odd first generation immigrants who speak English as a second language.

     Hopefully National changes govt departments to English name/Maori name or Maori name/English name when they get elected in October or in 2026.
     • weka 1.3.1

       12 January 2023 at 2:45 pm

       which government departments have a Māori name and no English name?
     • Sacha 1.3.2

       12 January 2023 at 5:29 pm

       I have noticed govt departments starting to use the 'pipe' character | between bilingual names.

       The French Canadian example is an interesting one, though they are not indigenous so the equivalent is really their First Nations people.

       It solves every issue.

       Not white insecurity, unfortunately.
   • Sacha 1.4

     12 January 2023 at 5:24 pm

     there was a case last year where a Bluebird employer spoke on their personal FB page about being sick of Maori language being everywhere eg hospitals. Someone dobbed this worker in to their employer and she lost her job. This happened in the context of Te Reo Whittakers chocolate.

     Without seeing the FB post, it sounds like an employee of a food company criticised another food company in public. I am guessing they did not have authority to do so as part of their job. Their employment contract may have had a standard clause about not bringing the company into disrepute.

     The unit had a Maori name that I didn’t recognise.

     Hospitals regularly use names like Oncology or Othopaedics (rather than cancer and bones). Not in English either. Nobody has consulted me about that, yet I am not upset or afraid.
2. Joe90 2

   12 January 2023 at 10:26 am

   Surovikin's reputation preceded him.

   He was brought in to lead the war in Ukraine and target civilians with the levels of brutality he used in Syria. He failed, Ukraine remains standing and grows stronger by the day.

   (1/2 of 13)

   https://twitter.com/MarkGaleotti/status/1613225533172551701

   https://www-svoboda-org.translate.goog/a/komanduyuschim-gruppirovkoy-voysk-rf-v-ukraine-naznachen-gerasimov/32219081.html?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp
   • Francesca 2.1

     12 January 2023 at 11:03 am

     Wow

     Radio Liberty huh, that old spin doctor from the Cold war , still funded by the US govt, and relied on for the necessary spin

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Europe/Radio_Liberty

     "The more things change, the more they stay the same "

     Sad about the British volunteer though .Clearly a good guy with the best motivations. May be Bagshaw, may be Parry, both passports found on body Originally I found this on your site, can't locate it , but its here on Arab news

     https://www.arabnews.com/node/2230881/world
3. SPC 3

   12 January 2023 at 10:39 am

   The Turkish government has elections coming up this year. And most parties are running with a policy of sending Syrian refugees home.

   Erdogan is seeking a Turkish military occupation 30 miles into Syria all along the border, including Kurdish areas. And intends to send refuges there (ethnic cleansing of Kurds/replacement with Arabs from part of their homeland in the NE of Syria). He will allow Sweden and Finland into NATO if he is allowed to do this.

   PS A subplot, why Turkey is backing the Tripoli faction in Libya.
   • Francesca 3.1

     12 January 2023 at 11:21 am

     The defence ministers of Turkey, Russia and Syria recently met in Moscow with a view to settling the Syrian war, which would allow refugees to return

     Erdogan has also said he's willing to talk with Assad and the foreign ministers will meet soon

     https://www.reuters.com/world/top-turkey-syria-russia-diplomats-meet-soon-turkish-official-2023-01-11/
4. pat 4

   12 January 2023 at 11:10 am

   "The fossil energy we lever, magnifies our labour hundreds of times (try pushing your car home, or doing the work of a 12-ton digger with your shovel). So we irrupted; exponentially increased our population and exponentially increased our collection of energy-requiring infrastructure. The problem was as predictable as the results of overstocking a paddock are; we have overshot. There is not enough stored solar energy, to maintain the current level of activity. Nor, ultimately, to maintain the current human population.

   Looking ahead, an equilibrium will be reached, with or without without our help. We would be better landing that plane as gently as possible, rather than waiting for it to crash."

   https://www.interest.co.nz/rural-news/118216/murray-grimwood-has-different-take-damien-oconnor-radio-interview-he-points-out

   "There are not enough real-time solar acres to support as many humans as there are now, doing as much as they are currently doing. Mentioning ‘money’, or the word ‘financial’ (an apparent default-setting for Ryan?) is pointless in the face of that dilemma – which is entirely a question of energy-physics. Even biology is a subsequent topic; life depends on energy; energy doesn not depend on life. And money is so distantly-subsequent as to be a complete red herring."

   As the latest announcements about resource shortages continue in our media it may be time to reflect on the real causes and ultimate outcomes.
   • weka 4.1

     12 January 2023 at 3:25 pm

     Haven't seen Murray Grimwood around for a while, excellent. He usually nails it.

     What were the latest announcements about resource shortages?
     • pat 4.1.1

       12 January 2023 at 8:32 pm

       The latest shortage announcements?…take your pick.

       Labour, potable water, various food stuffs, oil, natural gas, fert etc…in NZ of late, aviation fuel, housing, labour, eggs, toilet paper, food grade CO2, numerous consumer products.

       When we have been operating at maximum capacity to maintain current consumption it dosnt take much to create specific shortages…as MG notes it is a feature of overshoot.
       • weka 4.1.1.1

         12 January 2023 at 8:33 pm

         thanks. Didn't know there were shortages of avgas for instance.

         Hoping people start to connect the dots soon.
5. Peter 5

   12 January 2023 at 11:42 am

   Another part of our youth passes. Jeff Beck RIP. I like Nessun dorma on here @5:15:
   • Mac1 5.1

     12 January 2023 at 2:17 pm

     Yes, great playing and a loss to music.

     I want to also record the loss to music of Seamus Begley from West Kerry, singer and accordion player of Irish music who died on Tuesday aged 73. He visited NZ on tour and was top rate, with "the voice of an angel" according to Mary Black. He was good enough to get a eulogy from the Irish President.

     https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/artsandculture/arid-41044790.html

     He carried forward the music, language and culture of Ireland, with strong ties to family and the land. Those attributes are also what we prize in Aotearoa/New Zealand.
6. Stephen D 6

   12 January 2023 at 11:51 am

   God bless big pharma eh! Hehhehheh

   ”U.S.D.A. Approves First Vaccine for Honeybees

   Dalan Animal Health’s vaccine for American foulbrood, an aggressive bacterial disease, is the first for any insect in the United States.”

   https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/07/science/honeybee-vaccine.html
7. Stephen D 7

   12 January 2023 at 12:07 pm

   Pablo at Kiwipolitico is always worth a read.

   https://www.kiwipolitico.com/2023/01/trumps-toxic-tail/

   “ NZ anti-government groups on the far Right use Trump/Bannon rhetoric to denounce not only the current government but also the NZ “Deep State.” This was amply seen during the parliament protests, occupation and riot early last year. Platforms like Counterspin and VFF reportedly have funding support from Bannon’s media conglomerate, with people listed as his correspondents misusing press credentials to get close to the Prime Minister in order to harangue her. (The security implications of this are serious and need to be addressed as a priority by those responsible for her protection).”
   • Patricia Bremner 7.1

     12 January 2023 at 9:32 pm

     Yes absolutely.
8. Joe90 8

   12 January 2023 at 1:55 pm

   Heck of a job, Pooty.

   https://twitter.com/JosephPolitano/status/1613298303797547010
   • Francesca 8.1

     12 January 2023 at 5:30 pm

     And now of course, India and China are hoovering up Russian oil, and China is upping its imports of Russian gas .

     Russia can provide both oil and gas cheaply because they don’t need to frack .US oil is 50% fracked, but it comes with a cost., same as the gas.

     https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/putin-says-russia-increase-gas-sales-to-east-2022-12-15/

     https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/China-And-India-Are-Buying-Up-Russias-Arctic-Oil.html
     the US is going gangbusters with the fracking
     https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/11/us-fracking-climate-fossil-fuel-gases
9. weka 9

   12 January 2023 at 3:30 pm

   Interesting shift. Tracks with how people feel about trans-identified males in women's toilets too. Once people realise what it means there is significantly less support.

   What's important to understand about the UK in that time is that there's been a huge increase in public coverage of the issues especially in the past few years.

   https://twitter.com/NatCen/status/1612389027256143879
10. weka 10

    12 January 2023 at 3:47 pm

    wtf. You’d think the Windsors would have better PR advisors now, on things like how not to talk about your mother’s lips and your penis in the same paragraph.

    https://twitter.com/domwakeford/status/1613099763020488704
    • Belladonna 10.1

      12 January 2023 at 5:54 pm

      Guy's mental health issues appear to be even worse than we'd previously thought.
      How the desperation for $$$ can lead to self-destructive behaviour (as we see in plenty of other celebrities).
      • Muttonbird 10.1.1

        12 January 2023 at 6:18 pm

        It’s easy to swallow what conservative media tells you.

        Harry seems perfectly capable and coherent, decisive and driven. These are not ready indicators for someone with mental health issues.

        Some people are poor readers (in this case listeners) and don't immediately comprehend intent. It's clear to me anyway Harry is doing what writers do, using literary devices to create interest. Irony and juxtaposition, yes, Freudian, certainly, but a nightmare? Not unless you are a prig stuck in the 19th century.

        Framing him as not sound is a deliberate strategy by conservative media to feed to nationalist Brits.
        • Anne 10.1.1.1

          12 January 2023 at 7:03 pm

          Spot on Muttonbird.

          It was inevitable his detractors would use the mental health label. Its an old trick coming from the 'powers that be' and their media lackeys in particular who want someone discredited because the truth does not show them in a good light.

          An example is the claim he accused his stepmother (Camilla) of being a villain. My take from the excerpt I saw is that… during the period between his parents' breakup and his father's remarriage, Camilla was regarded as the villain in the piece. That was indeed the case.

          He did get a few things wrong but who hasn't in the course of a lifetime. The airline ticket for Meghan's father's booking from Mexico to the UK (which he never took up) was not Air NZ. They have never flown that route.

          Good on him for telling his side of the story. He was more than entitled to, given the trash that has been written about them ever since they married. Racism and jealousy in all its glory!
          • Muttonbird 10.1.1.1.1

            12 January 2023 at 7:47 pm

            None of these cranks have put themselves in Harry's shoes for one moment.
        • Belladonna 10.1.1.2

          12 January 2023 at 8:04 pm

          Given that even the Harry apologists are starting to question his 'recollection' of events, it seems more like the outpourings of a Kardashianesque diva determined to remain in the spotlight, while decrying the media who keep him there.

          His touching recollection of being at Eton when he was informed of the Queen Mum's death, turns out to be a tissue of lies – he was actually on a skiing holiday with his Dad and big brother in Switzerland.

          And this is not an isolated instance.

          When many fact-checkable elements (some not exactly in the distant past – cf the AirNZ flight), turn out to be blatant inventions, it does make people question the other elements of his story.
          • Muttonbird 10.1.1.2.1

            12 January 2023 at 8:23 pm

            It's amusing to watch the rabid right become so triggered over a few minor details. The mysterious Air New Zealand flight from Mexico seems to be one royalist Kiwis hang onto the most as if evidence Harry's entire experience did not exist at all.

            No wonder the book’s called “Spare”.
            • Belladonna 10.1.1.2.1.1

              12 January 2023 at 8:38 pm

              Amazing how the loony left (as opposed to the rabid right) are so blind to the multiple documented inconsistencies in the ever-rolling docudrama which is the Sussex story.

              Even the US (with their surprisingly inconsistent love of royalty) are starting to become disenchanted with them.

              The negative press-coverage in the UK seems to go across the political spectrum from ultra-conservative right to far left.
              • Muttonbird …

                12 January 2023 at 9:12 pm

                Here's an article heartless, RWNJ doubters might like to read. It deals with grief:

                The idea of “time healing all wounds” is a myth. Pain is ongoing. And by silencing someone’s pain, this can worsen it. The public, health professionals, the media and family can all silence someone’s grief by minimising discussions about the impact of losing a loved one.

                https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/wellbeing/300783465/what-prince-harrys-memoir-spare-tells-us-about-complicated-grief-and-the-longterm-impact-of-losing-a-mother-so-young
            • Anne 10.1.1.2.1.2

              12 January 2023 at 9:22 pm

              Since Harry had help to write the book, it sounds like someone got their wires crossed over the airline in question. It wouldn't surprise me if it was Air India not Air NZ but, for the sake of forthcoming pedantry, I might be wrong.

              I have no quarrel with Queen Consort Camilla. She was once very badly treated too. I also have no doubt that Princess Diana over indulged Harry when he was a child. She would have known he was always going to be in William's shadow and be treated as such, and she tried hard [too hard perhaps] to make up for it.

              Whether he will succeed has yet to be seen, but he deserves full marks for choosing his own destiny and standing up to the class-ridden politics that is conservative/Conservative Britain.
          • Patricia Bremner 10.1.1.2.2

            12 January 2023 at 10:14 pm

            Personally I find Harry credible, and the 'photos of the locked jaw of William finally explained. (He is often teeth clenched in recent ‘photos)

            Strange how even now some would deny Harry his voice.

            Oh and the errors, well most autobiographies have them.

            Ask 6 witnesses to report on an incident and there will be 6 variations.

            He will remember some details differently, and so will his family, that does not make him a liar.

            The Royals’ "stiff upper lip" can be harmful, when it denies natural grief.

            He has found a life purpose in his Invictus Games for wounded veterans, his fundraising for causes and a life with Megan and children.

            I wish him well, and yes he is better than just a spare wheel for the Royal Buggy.

            Memory can be faulty, but the feelings remain, and can be triggered by events or actions. PTSD

            Declaration. I am not a Royalist.
            • Anne 10.1.1.2.2.1

              12 January 2023 at 11:46 pm

              Well said Patricia. I can see both the positives and the negatives of the British Royal family. I don't hate them. For the most part they are doing their best. Their lives are not their own to live. "The Firm" is full of sociopaths and upper class twats telling them what they can and can't do.

              Harry and Meghan rebelled and 'jolly' good luck to them. Here's hoping they succeed.
              • Tony Veitch …

                13 January 2023 at 6:28 am

                The very best that can be said about the entire royal family is that . . . they are irrelevant!

                Though perhaps you could add that they're entertaining! In a 'I wouldn't be caught doing that' sort of way.
11. Sacha 11

    12 January 2023 at 3:56 pm

    Leadership

    https://twitter.com/SharnelleVella/status/1613316700421881856
12. weka 12

    12 January 2023 at 4:55 pm

    Old thread, still pertinent.

    https://twitter.com/youarelobbylud/status/1431515228957814786
13. Sacha 13

    12 January 2023 at 6:56 pm

    Succinct

    https://twitter.com/kevorkian82/status/1613257921999294464
14. Sacha 14

    12 January 2023 at 7:17 pm

    Also concise

    https://twitter.com/RawiriTaonui/status/1613115735169208321
15. Incognito 15

    12 January 2023 at 7:26 pm

    The National Party cannot organise a piss-up in a brewery and blames government for CO2 shortage.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/130960498/national-says-ministers-should-have-done-more-as-alarm-grows-over-co2-shortage

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/482148/drink-makers-concerns-bubbling-to-surface-after-todd-energy-kapuni-outage

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/lifestyle/2023/01/nationwide-co2-shortage-could-force-breweries-to-close.html
    • Muttonbird 15.1

      12 January 2023 at 7:46 pm

      The government should have planned for this?

      A quick read over the first article suggests there are two options:

      1. Mothball the plant in case it needs to be used again. Presumably at horrendous cost for zero output. Great thinking, idiots.

      2. Government to build a state owned CO2 plant to ensure we have a plentiful supply of strawberries and craft beer. Now we are talking!

      This is yet again a failure of private sector. Market did not provide.
    • gsays 15.2

      12 January 2023 at 10:47 pm

      The governments fingerprints are on this issue.

      Megan Woods accepted 'advice' from officials and Marsden Point closed. Among other things, Marsden Point was responsible for plenty/most/lots of CO2 production.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/295556/$40m-co2-plant-opens-at-marsden-point

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/local-co2-shortage-crippling-new-zealands-beverage-industry-brewer/23WVUCCKP75ZFOY4ATTF77K64M/
      • Mac1 15.2.1

        13 January 2023 at 10:38 am

        The industry in March 2022 knew there could be problems and even then talked about slowing production happening them.

        The alternative to building a CO2 plant was to import but industry said that was more expensive.

        The media published this article in June 2022.

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/129007533/carbon-dioxide-shortage-threatens-to-take-fizz-out-of-craft-beer

        Nowhere does it mention governmental responsibility.

        To me it looks like a similar scenario in a two year time frame to the chicken industry which had ten years to sort out its prospective problems.

        Marsden indicated its desire to close early in 2021.

        Could a C02 producing plant big enough for NZ's needs be built and operational in that time frame?

        Could CO2 have been imported in sufficient quantities since March 2022?

        Is National spokesperson, Stuart Smith, denying industry's role in this shortage?

        "The nationwide shortage of carbon dioxide will make goods more expensive and hurt New Zealand’s exporters, National’s Energy and Resources spokesperson Stuart Smith says.

        https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2301/S00022/inaction-on-co2-supplies-to-hit-prices-and-exporters.htm

        I ask rather what did business do to solve its problem?
        • gsays 15.2.1.1

          13 January 2023 at 2:03 pm

          I have come into this exchange from the point of view Marsden Point should not have been closed. Minister Woods needed nore courage and better arguments to push the idea of nationalising it. The CO2 shortage is a direct consequence of that. Todd could close it's plant and there would not be the issues now. That is without considering the loss of resilience and independence fuel wise.

          I couldn't care less about some opposition MP's brainfarts, my criticism is of those that do have the power and their actions or inactions.

          Business wants shortages, its good for business.
      • Incognito 15.2.2

        13 January 2023 at 12:30 pm

        The closure had been signalled well in advance and happened in early 2022. Indeed, the industrial players were well aware of the situation. For example, from your link of 6 Oct, 2022 [that is 3 months ago and about 6 months after the closure]:

        Eriksen said the brewery was looking at alternatives to CO2 – including nitrogen – but this came at a cost.

        "We are trying to figure out ways to become more independent."

        He said major disruptions to production were lurking in the future and breweries were going to feel the pressure coming into the warmer season.

        Director of government relations and public affairs at the NZ Beverage Council, Belinda Milnes, said ongoing supply issues had been exacerbated by the closure of the Marsden Point refinery.

        "The beverage sector is one of many industries [that] have been impacted, and companies have had to manage supply carefully."

        She said importing CO2 was an alternative, but it was an expensive option due to the high freight costs.

        It is a bit rich, and lazy, to blame others and government for poor business decisions. RWNJs are so contrary. OTOH, they want the State and Government to do as little as possible and stay out of and away from markets, but OTOH they assert that Government is primarily responsible for anything and everything that goes wrong and demand it fixes it, immediately – things inevitably go wrong.

        The blame game is such a mug’s game, don’t you agree?
        • Mac1 15.2.2.1

          13 January 2023 at 12:50 pm

          "The blame game is such a mug’s game, don’t you agree?" Yes, especially when they blame the wrong people.

          Stuart Smith blamed government recently for a pothole on a pedestrian crossing in Blenheim. He jumped on silly Simeon Brown's band wagon and blamed government. Of course, roads in town are the Council's responsibility, so blame was apportioned wrongly.

          Then he gets into the "government ought to" blame game over the teaching of research and analysis skills so long as they don't teach about climate change being a physical, scientific, evidence-based reality.

          Had Mr Smith looked at school curriculum as to what it does teach now? Ot maybe he just wanted it taught compulsorily to age 18, as the Tory PM advocated.

          Research and and analysis skills are taught in many subjects, not just maths. I changed in Year 12 to History. 'What were the causes of WW1?"

          What effect did climate change have upon past history? A good topic in history, social studies, science, agriculture and economics……..
          • Incognito 15.2.2.1.1

            13 January 2023 at 8:47 pm

            I 50% agree with you in that often the wrong people cop flak. However, rather than blaming anyone, why not start holding them to account by asking pertinent questions and scrutinising actions? In my experience, when this is done in an open, respectful, non-judgemental, and constructive manner one receives better responses/answers that lead to better understanding and decision-making in future by the powers that be who are responsible. It is all part of engagement with (the) stakeholders and providing (positive) feedback.
          • alwyn 15.2.2.1.2

            14 January 2023 at 7:04 pm

            "blamed government recently for a pothole on a pedestrian crossing in Blenheim"

            Do you have a link to a report of this complaint? The only thing I have seen was a complaint about the Picton Road which would be SH1. The maintenance of State Highways, even in the middle of towns, has always been a Central Government responsibility and not a Council one.

            How the Minister is supposed to know about it is difficult to see but he is, in theory, responsible for everything his Department does.
            • Mac1 15.2.2.1.2.1

              14 January 2023 at 10:50 pm

              Look at Open Mike 11 October 2022 at aj's post at #8 and following comments.

              The pothole is not on a state highway but on a Blenheim street 150 meters from the MP's office. I've seen it, identified it, photographed it.

              The MP was wrong to say it was the government's fault.
              • alwyn …

                15 January 2023 at 9:57 am

                Thank you.

                As the Australian movie The Castle would put it.

                If it's on a Council maintained road we can tell Stuart Smith "He's dreaming".
                • Mac1 …

                  15 January 2023 at 11:46 am

                  More than dreaming, Alwyn; deliberately misleading or at best uninformed.

                  If this were a castle, he'd be saying that the causeway, drawbridge and courtyard surface were the king's responsibility not the lord's; that the water in the moat, (a mixture of the three waters after all), was not an issue for the king but could the king please give us some money to treat it as we see fit; and limiting wagons, carriages and horses to 80 km/h on windy hills is unfair on cartage owners and undertakers.
                  • Mac1 …

                    15 January 2023 at 3:42 pm

                    The world is a better place. The above mentioned pothole has been filled and painted white- man and car alike can proceed.

                    My thanks to the government for taking time over the Christmas/ New Year period to fix it.

                    When you gets the blame, deserved or not, you should get the kudos as well!

                    Stuart?
        • gsays 15.2.2.2

          13 January 2023 at 2:07 pm

          "It is a bit rich, and lazy, to blame others and government for poor business decisions. RWNJs are so contrary. OTOH, they want the State and Government to do as little as possible and stay out of and away from markets, but OTOH they assert that Government is primarily responsible for anything and everything that goes wrong and demand it fixes it, immediately – things inevitably go wrong."

          Not a lot to argue with there.

          My issue, as I mentioned to Mac above, is what those with the power did or didn't do.

          One person's "blame game" is another's attempt at holding the PTB to account. (No matter how ham-fisted it was.)
          • Incognito 15.2.2.2.1

            13 January 2023 at 8:51 pm

            Pointing fingers is not asking questions as to what, when, and why? Also see my reply @ 15.2.2.1.1 to Mac1 (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-12-01-2023/#comment-1930243).
16. RP Mcmurphy 16

    12 January 2023 at 9:44 pm

    david seemore fancies himself as a philosopher when in fact he is merely a second rate sophist.
    • Muttonbird 16.1

      12 January 2023 at 10:58 pm

      Might call him David Sophist from now on. A dreadful human being.
17. gsays 17

    12 January 2023 at 10:54 pm

    "To ensure you can register your baby’s name, avoid using official titles, numeric characters or symbols – like a backslash or punctuation mark – and swear words."

    I am curious as to what happens if you do not register your baby's name and why?

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/wellbeing/parenting/300783393/king-the-most-declined-name-in-nz-for-14th-year-in-a-row
    • alwyn 17.1

      14 January 2023 at 7:15 pm

      The law apparently requires that you register the birth. The form for doing so states "Your child must be registered with a surname or family name, and one or more given names."

      What they would do if you never fill in the form is not obvious, at least to me. Please don't do it though. I know of a case where the New Zealand parents of a child born in Spain never notified the birth to the New Zealand Government. When they did return to New Zealand the original action at the border was to tell them that, having no evidence that the child was a NZ citizen the youngster, still under a year old, was not going to be allowed into the country.

      It apparently took a great deal of argument by the family to get them to change their mind.

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