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Open mike 12/04/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, April 12th, 2020 - 236 comments
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For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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Step up to the mike …

236 comments on “Open mike 12/04/2020 ”

  1. A 1

    Yesterday I listened to an interview. It was a nurse in Utah saying that there is pressure to note cause of death as Covid 19. For example, she talked about someone in a hospice being tested for Covid and that being put down as the cause of death.
    https://www.intellihub.com/icu-nurse-whistleblower-covid-19-is-a-manufactured-crisis/

    In NYC, supposedly death central, one of the symptoms is fizzing of the skin/buzzing, which seems decidedly unvirus like. https://nypost.com/2020/04/10/coronavirus-patients-report-strange-new-symptom-fizzing/

    The dramatic images of Hart Island burials in NYC…it turns out that in a normal year they bury around 2000 people there. The picture suggests something dramatic but it could be BAU.

    Don't believe anything about this stupid virus.

    • 1.76 million infected and 108,000 deaths…..these figures would probably be double or triple that but for lockdowns….haven't you been listening to the scientists Mr. A?

      • Ross 1.1.1

        these figures would probably be double or triple that but for lockdowns

        Iceland isn't in lockdown and yet their CFR is about the same as for seasonal flu. Also, you've taken no account of the costs of lockdown. What if the costs outweigh the benefits?

        • Bearded Git 1.1.1.1

          I'm guessing you are losing money due to the lockdown Ross?

          • riffer 1.1.1.1.1

            Indeed. I would speculate that Ross is all right with everybody else's parents and grandparents dying so that his business can make a tidy profit this year. After all, he's got his eye on a new boat, or maybe a new Audi.

            • Ross 1.1.1.1.1.2

              I would speculate that Ross is all right with everybody else's parents and grandparents dying so that his business can make a tidy profit this year. After all, he's got his eye on a new boat, or maybe a new Audi.

              That's just weird and I think you'll find your comment isn't consistent with the terms and conditions of this site. 🙂

            • Gabby 1.1.1.1.1.3

              I reckon he's a funeral director.

        • Stephen D 1.1.1.2

          Either that or they don't have anybody in their family over 70.

    • Andre 1.2

      I have a nephew that recently finished his doctor training and was doing his first stints in hospitals in France. He has got COVID-19, along with his mother.

      My cousin and her husband are doctors in Salt Lake City. Right now they are doing extended shifts, he in emergency, she in respiratory intensive care. They were scheduled to have leave right now for their recent baby, but now have to carefully juggle their extended shifts.

      If you are trying to suggest that our government has over-reacted, or that somehow this isn't a genuine global health crisis that justifies the extreme measures being taken, you can FUCK RIGHT OFF.

    • A 1.3

      October 2019, Bill Gates staged "Event 201" to play out the world’s most likely response to a "fictional" global viral outbreak. Millions died.

      What a coincidence.

      It's kinda funny that I was the first to warn about this virus on this site…and had similar reactions (although fuck off written in bold is new). It's ok. I will leave. Eventually you will see this for what it is – a set up based on deliberately flawed testing.

      • Forget now 1.3.1

        Bye now… And please don't come back, because it's giving me RSI scrolling past all your scientifically illiterate drivel.

      • Cinny 1.3.2

        It's kinda funny that I was the first to warn about this virus on this site

        Dude, it's not a competition.

      • Anne 1.3.3

        You didn't warn us A. We already knew and we recognised the seriousness of a pandemic in the making. Apart from acknowledging the situation as we understood it to be back then, we kept our counsel and left it to the scientists – the real scientists that is, and not the pseudo scientists – to keep us informed.

        • Rosemary McDonald 1.3.3.1

          Perhaps Anne you could tell me exactly how one tells if a particular scientist is real or pseudo?

          Because up until the last few days the 'real' doctors have been saying that ventilators are the preferred protocol for patients presenting with low oxygen saturation levels. Now, with 80% of ventilated patients dying that protocol is being revised.

          That's the problem with Science Anne, it changes and adjusts according to new information and applied research…real life experience…

          Otherwise it would be dogma.

          • Treetop 1.3.3.1.1

            Last Saturday on RNZ just after the 9 am news Chris Smith a virologist either from the UK or the US had a lot to say on Covid -19 and covered ICU treatment.

            A thing called a eco vent is being touted as being better than a ventilator.

          • Forget now 1.3.3.1.2

            RMcD

            Surely you have answered your own question there? Authentic science is that which changes to fit the evidence, whereas pseudo science maintains its claims in the face of evidence.

            There are also issues of; falsibility, replicability, Occam's Razor & the Sagan Balance. But the core is that any scientific conclusion is always provisional pending new evidence.

          • Anne 1.3.3.1.3

            Perhaps Anne you could tell me exactly how one tells if a particular scientist is real or pseudo?

            Well, since my former career was in one of the sciences, I think I might be able to tell the difference between a real scientist and a pseudo scientist.

    • Ross 1.4

      The picture suggests something dramatic but it could be BAU.

      Approximately 25,000 Italian people died of the seasonal flu in 2016/17. About 68,000 Italian people died from the season flu between 2013-2017. I must confess I don't recall the headlines about these numbers at the time. I suspect there were none.

      Many people are probably unaware that in New Zealand, about 500 people die from the flu each year. If 500 were to die from Covid-19, we'd hear about it ad nauseum.

      In Iceland, the CFR is apparently similar to that for flu.

      "While the case fatality rate (CFR) of 2019-nCoV, the virus that causes COVID19, remains unknown, recently published figures likely overestimate the true rate. Previous reviews of H1N1, MERS, and SARS highlight the difficulty of early estimation of CFR of novel viruses related to an absence of consensus on defining and measuring incidences and severities of infection….As with other epidemics, the final CFR for COVID-19 will likely be significantly lower than both the currently reported rates, and those announced in the coming weeks."

      https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m606/rr-5

      https://slate.com/technology/2020/03/coronavirus-mortality-rate-lower-than-we-think.html

      https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/68ZG5SYcRQ5q8F7QR/iceland-s-covid-19-random-sampling-results-c19-similar-to

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11873058

      https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971219303285

      • KJT 1.4.1

        Only a thousand people die, instead of 500.

        All good then.

        By the way Connecticut, with 3.6 million people, already have over 400 dead and the number of cases are still rising exponentially.

        And. Their economy is still fucked.

        • observer 1.4.1.1

          All the counter-arguments are essentially the same thing:

          "We don't need to be taking all these measures, because actually the numbers aren't that high, because we're taking all these measures."

          There is no arguing with that skewed logic.

      • Psycho Milt 1.4.2

        Approximately 25,000 Italian people died of the seasonal flu in 2016/17.

        So, if flu's causing around 12,000 deaths a year in Italy it doesn't matter that 20,000 have died of COVID-19 so far this year despite a complete lock-down of the country and there was really no point to the lock-down or all the fuss about avoiding infection? Good luck selling that idea to anyone who isn't a complete fucking idiot.

        • Ross 1.4.2.1

          Good luck selling that idea

          I'm not a psychiatrist – I wouldn't attempt to sell ideas to those with a closed mind. I'll leave that to Dr Knut Kittkowski but, like you say, I suspect he's pushing shit uphill.

          JOHN: And so, what do you make of the policy that was enacted in the United States and England and most places throughout the world, this policy of containment, shelter-in-place, etc.? What’s your opinion of it?

          WITTKOWSKI: Well, what people are trying to do is flatten the curve. I don’t really know why. But, what happens is if you flatten the curve, you also prolong, to widen it, and it takes more time. And I don’t see a good reason for a respiratory disease to stay in the population longer than necessary

          JOHN: And what do you say to people who just say, “We just didn’t know about the lethality of this virus and it was the smartest thing to do, to do what we did, and contain everybody, because we just didn’t have the data.”

          WITTKOWSKI: We had two other SARS viruses before. Or, coronaviruses. It’s not the first coronavirus that comes out, and it won’t be the last. And for all respiratory diseases, we have the same type of an epidemic. If you leave it alone, it comes for two weeks, it peaks, and it goes for two weeks and it’s gone.

          https://ratical.org/PerspectivesOnPandemic-II.html

          • solkta 1.4.2.1.1

            Dr Knut

            Is somebody taking the piss?

            • Sabine 1.4.2.1.1.1

              https://www.linkedin.com/in/knutmwittkowski

              Knut is an oldfashioned German male name. Yes it is.

              • solkta

                So there has been many German knuts. I'm convinced.

                • Sabine

                  Yes. It is a fairly common name especially to the east and the north.

                  Judging by his last name i would say that originally his family hails from the East Coast in Germany – or oldfashioned Bohemia.

                  A bit like Dick is a name in english. 🙂

                • mikesh

                  Wasn't Knut that ancient king who couldn't stop the tide coming in. What a co-incidence.

                  • In Vino

                    Joking aside, I think PM was wrong in halving the 25,000 number. The Flu season in Italy is winter – it lasts from, say November 2016 through to March 2017. So that is like a summer season here. We would talk about the 2016-17 summer, and that would be just one season, not 2 whole years.

                  • Forget now

                    Canute was the subject of story written centuries later. Doubtful that it had any real historical basis (he was Viking king of Norway and England, so you have to assume he did get his feet wet sometimes):

                    Sick of his warlords proclaiming him as Cnut the Great, and suggesting new places to invade and plunder (rather than consolidating what power he had). Canute ordered his throne to be carried to the seashore and theatrically demanded the tide to stop coming in while being drenched by the rising tide.

                    He then proclaimed to hisminions that even a King's power had its limits. Then took his crown off and hung it on a crucifix for the rest of his reign. Christian propoganda in other words.

              • The name Knut went to England with the Angles and Saxons, too. Most English speakers are familar with King Canute, for example.

            • Alice Tectonite 1.4.2.1.1.2

              Sounds like an appropriate name for someone standing against the tide (of medical opinion).

          • dv 1.4.2.1.2

            Who is this guy witt…..
            ‘If you leave it alone, it comes for two weeks, it peaks, and it goes for two weeks and it’s gone.

            HA GONE means DEAD!!!

          • Psycho Milt 1.4.2.1.3

            <i>…what people are trying to do is flatten the curve. I don’t really know why. </i>

            Fortunately, most other people do know why, which explains the general lack of acceptance of Kittkowski's views among his colleagues.

            • Forget now 1.4.2.1.3.1

              Classic argument from ignorance – common in narcissists (along with magical thinking):

              A/ "Everything is about me"

              B/ "I am not capable of (or chose not to) understanding this thing"

              Therefore that thing is not real.

    • Trawling the Internet for snippets that can be presented as supporting your conspiracy theory might make you feel better but is neither useful nor persuasive for anyone else.

      In reality, the COVID-19 death rate will be higher than is being reported, because some people are dying at home rather than hospital and not being tested via autopsy. From your comment yesterday(?) it looks like you're peddling this bullshit as part of a more general anit-vaxxer delusion. In situations like this, anti-vaxxer bullshit is even less welcome than usual.

      • Ross 1.5.1

        In reality, the COVID-19 death rate will be higher than is being reported

        Unlikely. In Iceland, 50% of those with the virus don't know they have it as they lack any symptoms. The numbers with the virus will be higher than reported which means a lower CFR.

        In Italy, only one person aged under 20 has died. Some 95% of deaths are aged 60 and over. Most flu deaths are in the elderly population.

        From your comment yesterday(?) it looks like you're peddling this bullshit as part of a more general anit-vaxxer delusion.

        I'd recommend a lie down and a cup of tea.

        https://www.statista.com/statistics/1105061/coronavirus-deaths-by-region-in-italy/

        • I Feel Love 1.5.1.1

          Iceland has a population of 300,000 (???), what a tiny place.

        • Forget now 1.5.1.2

          Ross you sound like a total sociopath! You are fine with 17, 916 people dying in one country (according to your own numbers current to yesterday), because only one of them was under 20?

          Also, due to the health care system being clogged with infectious adults. People user 20 are dying from usually preventable causes. But these are not counted as being directly caused by the Crow's talons:

          https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(20)30108-5/fulltext

          • Ross 1.5.1.2.1

            Ross you sound like a total sociopath! You are fine with 17, 916 people dying in one country (according to your own numbers current to yesterday), because only one of them was under 20?

            You may need to read what I wrote again. I think you’ll find that nowhere did I say or imply that I was jumping for joy at people dying. I did say that only one person in Italy in a particular cohort had died from the virus, and of course Dr Kittkowski had made the point that elderly people needed to take precautions.

            due to the health care system being clogged with infectious adults. People user 20 are dying from usually preventable causes

            That's true although the article you cite states that parents didn't want to inconvenience their local health provider or were concerned their child may, by going to hospital, contract the virus. Similar decision-making may have also occurred during previous flu epidemics. Were the parents aware of the very low risk of contracting and dying from the virus? If they were aware, they may have acted more quickly to get medical treatment.

            • Forget now 1.5.1.2.1.1

              Ross

              You are not worth the effort. Even with nothing else to do, trying to convince you of anything is a bigger waste of time than simply staring at the walls as they close in around me.

              Have the last word if you want.

        • mikesh 1.5.1.3

          Perhaps Iceland's cold climate is a mitigating factor. I have heard that people working in Antarctica don't get colds, so perhaps viruses don't fare so well in low temperatures.

          • Treetop 1.5.1.3.1

            Approx 8.40 am this morning on RNZ a virologist (I think) raised that cooler temperatures are not good as Covid-19 stays around longer with moisture. I was not listening that carefully.

            • Poission 1.5.1.3.1.1

              The thinking was on the climatic zones,where community transfer is more likely.

              Findings: To date, Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19), caused by SARS-CoV-2, has established significant community spread in cities and regions along a narrow east west distribution roughly along the 30-50o N’ corridor at consistently similar weather patterns consisting of average temperatures of 5-11oC, combined with low specific (3-6 g/kg) and absolute humidity (4-7 g/m3). There has been a lack of significant community establishment in expected locations that are based only on population proximity and extensive population interaction through travel.

              Interpretation: The distribution of significant community outbreaks along restricted latitude, temperature, and humidity are consistent with the behavior of a seasonal respiratory virus. Additionally, we have proposed a simplified model that shows a zone at increased risk for COVID-19 spread. Using weather modeling, it may be possible to predict the regions most likely to be at higher risk of significant community spread of COVID-19 in the upcoming weeks, allowing for concentration of public health efforts on surveillance and containment.

              https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3550308

              Copernicus (eu climate models) has an observational model for the areas at risk.

              https://cds.climate.copernicus.eu/apps/c3s/app-c3s-monthly-climate-covid-19-explorer

              • Treetop

                I will read the paper.

                The energy payment is a wise idea as it will save lives. I know that there are people out there who live in drafty conditions (or worse) and will struggle to pay the power.

                • Poission

                  I know people who have to go without power during the present,it would be a good moment to bring the winter payment foreward.

                • mpledger

                  It also stops people getting the flu which can clog the hospitals as well.

        • Psycho Milt 1.5.1.4

          The numbers with the virus will be higher than reported which means a lower CFR.

          Thank you. Yes, I should have referred to number of deaths, rather than death rate. That's still a lot of people whose lives A airily dismisses, more so when you consider how many would be dying if this "so what it's hardly worse than the flu" fuckwittery were accepted by governments.

          In Italy, only one person aged under 20 has died. Some 95% of deaths are aged 60 and over. Most flu deaths are in the elderly population.

          Ah, the "useless eaters" argument. That's some ugly, ugly shit you're peddling there, dudebro.

          • Ross 1.5.1.4.1

            Ah, the "useless eaters" argument.

            You couldn't be more wrong. Is Dr Kittkowski saying that we should sacrifice the elderly, or that they were going to die anyway? In fact, he seems to be saying the opposite. But he is also saying that lockdown isn't the right approach.

            • Gabby 1.5.1.4.1.1

              Everbody godda die some time Red.

            • Psycho Milt 1.5.1.4.1.2

              I didn't quote Kittkowski making the "useless eaters" argument, I quoted you making it. It's an implied argument in that the only context in which your statement would make sense is in an argument that, because the disease is fatal mostly for the elderly, who are going to die soon anyway, drastic measures like lock-downs aren't necessary. That's a "useless eaters" argument, ie it's premised on the lives of the elderly not mattering.

              Still, I can see this is going to head the same way as your comments on climate change: you make an implied argument, people point out your argument is shit, you respond by claiming you never argued that in the first place, resulting in demands for you to state clearly what you arguing, which you then don't respond to.

          • Carolyn_Nth 1.5.1.4.2

            It'll be interesting to see what the statistics are for deaths from flu in NZ for this year.

            Normally about 500 people die from flu, mostly elderly, and high proportion of Maori and Pacific people.

            Baker said these groups add up to around 500 deaths per year in New Zealand, a figure higher than last year's road toll. This makes influenza one of the biggest infectious disease killers in the country.

            Most people who die are over the age of 65, however Baker said Māori and Pacific people were affected at a higher rate at younger ages.

            So, with the lock down, the amount of social isolation, and the increase in people getting flu jabs, I would expect the number to be lower than usual.

            Also, it's useful to compare that flu death rate, with the projected death rate if we hadn't had early lock down?

            Auckland university modelling shows without lock down, up to 80,000 NZers could die of C-19.

            The research suggests that without the lockdown, up to 89% of the population would be infected and up to 80,000 would die.

            • McFlock 1.5.1.4.2.1

              The other issue with the flu comparison is that it's comparing two diseases that are broadly similar in infectiousness and CFR, but we have vaccines against the flu variants.

              So sure, 500 a year if we had a vaccine for it. One of the outcomes predicted weeks (a lifetime) ago was that covid vaccines come in and the "flu season" becomes the "covid-flu season".

              As it is, though, without a lockdown we'd be looking at dozens if not hundreds of dead already.

            • Ross 1.5.1.4.2.2

              Carolyn

              A figure of 80k deaths is fanciful. Iceland doesn’t have a lockdown. There have been seven deaths there from the virus. Scaremongering isn’t helpful and possibly explains why the parents of some children are reluctant to take their sick kids for medical treatment.

              • pat

                Iceland has had twice the number of deaths as NZ with less than 10% of our population and they have in place the equivalent about our level 3 response…a dispersed population of 300,000 and you may take that chance…personally i think theyve wasted the opportunity that we didnt

              • McFlock

                80k was the higher end estimate, but also an estimate of the full course of the disease. Comparing it with Iceland's current rate is (and I'm really trying to cast the best possible light on your motivations here) incredibly stupid.

                Also, Iceland has 8 dead in a total population of 360k. That would be something like 100 dead in NZ's population.

                Additionally, Iceland is only slightly short of a lockdown, banning groups of more than 20. So their intervention isn't quire as extreme, and their results aren't quite as good.

                Quibble about 80k as if it were the only estimate ever made, nobody cares. We have but to look at the US and Europe to know lockdown is not an "if" but a when", and we can chose to implement it to avoid as many deaths as possible as soon as community transmission was evident.

                • Ross

                  Also, Iceland has 8 dead in a total population of 360k. That would be something like 100 dead in NZ's population.

                  Yes, 100 deaths would be one fifth of those killed by flu each year in NZ, and you've ignored the benefits of no lockdown. Presumably, there are benefits otherwise Iceland wouldn’t have gone down that path.

                  Quibble about 80k as if it were the only estimate ever made, nobody cares.

                  I suspect parents frightened to take their sick kids to hospital care. A medical expert on the TV news tonight stated that parents with sick kids shouldn't hesitate to take their sick kids to hospital. That message should've been stated ad nauseum prior to the lockdown coming into effect and throughout its existence. I cannot find that message on the Government's Covid 19 website. Instead its advice includes: "If you have COVID-19, or you’re feeling unwell, it’s critical you stay at home and recover" and "If a child or carer becomes unwell, they must stay at home” Staying at home is the overriding message, terrible advice if you have a child needing urgent medical attention.

                  • McFlock

                    That was a hundred deaths in a few weeks, not in a full year.

                    As for messaging, yes it's a balance between the thousands of dead without that messaging (even if it's not 80,000 dead, it would still leave the flu way behind) and current health issues. But I don't get the impression you care either way.

              • Anne

                I note you take the most extreme figure possible. You use it to infer "scaremongering". Its nothing of the sort. Its a mathematical conclusion based on known evidence. There is [ultimately] a chance the virus could kill 80,000 people in NZ if no action was taken to contain the virus.

                The individuals – including parents – who are not seeking medical assistance are doing so out of misinformation or ignorance. They are either lacking in cognitive understanding or listening to the wrong people who play on their ignorance.

                Unfortunately you can’t legislate against ‘stupid’.

                • Ross

                  I note you take the most extreme figure possible. You use it to infer "scaremongering". Its nothing of the sort. Its a mathematical conclusion based on known evidence. There is [ultimately] a chance the virus could kill 80,000 people in NZ if no action was taken to contain the virus.

                  Carolyn mentioned the figure and I responded to her. Yes, 80,000 people could die if various extreme assumptions prove correct and if we ignore what's happening in countries like Iceland. Now that we know what's happening in the real world, I'd expect the modellers to modify their dire predictions.

              • Poission

                In Scandinavia sweden is the only country not in lockdown,and the only country with a current rise in cases.

                It has around twice our population,9 times the recorded cases and 300 x the recorded deaths.

              • Carolyn_Nth

                Following the links to the actual research, a report by the researchers mentions tens of thousands of deaths – 20,000 or 80,000, our health system would be overwhelmed.

                The model shows what would happen if an outbreak took hold here. In a scenario where we did nothing about it, we found that the New Zealand health system would be swamped ten times over, leading to tens of thousands of deaths.

                More details of the research here if you want to quibble about it.

        • mpledger 1.5.1.5

          It will be interesting to look at excess deaths when this is over not just deaths attributed to covid-19. In Italy …

          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

          Nembro, in the province of Bergamo, is the town most hard hit in per capita terms by COVID-19. Currently the town has 31 deaths attributed to COVID-19. But when the two authors looked at the total number of deaths registered in the town in January, February and March and compared it to the average for that period in previous years they found the number was dramatically larger. 158 deaths have been registered in the town during that period this year compared to an average of 35 in previous years.

          The math is simple: the average of 35 plus the 31 COVID-19 deaths gets you to 66. But the town has recorded almost 100 more deaths on top of that. As the authors say, “The difference is enormous and cannot be a simple statistical deviation.”

          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

          https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/this-is-very-important-from-italy-please-read

          which links back to the original Italian article.

    • joe90 1.6

      Don't believe anything about this stupid virus.

      Yeah. Those nasal swabs they're sticking way TF up peoples noses? Well, they're swabbing SFA. They're actually inserting 5G RF mind control chips.

      Fortunately Q and his QANON patriots are awake to the actions of the deeply deep deep state statists.

      But you'll have to wait until Q and his QANON patriot army have finished rescuing all the tunnel tots from the Planet Pizza tunnels, completed the mass arrests of deeply deep deep state statists, reopened GitMo and begun the trials and executions.

      So until then, be patient and Q will send out QANON patriot army squads of 5G chip removal experts.

      ///

    • Gabby 1.7

      I thought the stupid virus was what you caught.

  2. Ad 2

    Here come the evaluations of which country and which political system is doing a better job responding to the crisis:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/11/coronavirus-who-will-be-winners-and-losers-in-new-world-order

    • Andre 2.1

      That piece gives most of its time to the authoritarian/democratic, or liberal/illiberal divide, with just a little bit of state capability and trust in government thrown in.

      Trust in science and trust in media are almost certainly important factors as well. Here in New Zealand, I have strong doubts our government would have got buy-in for the measures taken if we didn't have trust in the media reports coming out of Italy in particular and trust in the science reports of how it would likely play out here with and without the measures taken.

  3. Rosemary McDonald 3

    "Carers forced to wash and reuse masks…."

    Stuff. Sourced from Newsroom.

    Nikki Mandow

    A longish read, might challenge some here who like their information nibble -sized.

    No wonder some of us do not have one iota of faith in the Ministry of Health or the District Health Boards.

    NB the quote from a head of a community support provider.

    Didn't want to be named for fear of jeopardizing supply of PPE.

    This is the shit that many of us in the disability community have been living with for the past two decades.

    And yes…the bastards can and do find ways to punish those who rattle the cage.

    This I know from personal experience.

    Kindness my arse.

    A cynical tin foil hat wearer might opine that it would suit the Misery and the DHBs and ACC if a few more of those expensive -to -keep- healthy clients got the Virus and fell off their perches.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2020/04/12/1125227/carers-forced-to-wash-and-reuse-masks

    [link added – weka]

    • Alice Tectonite 3.1

      It'd help if you could link to the piece in question.

      • Rosemary McDonald 3.1.1

        Sorry, Alice Tectonite. Can't do that at the moment, to my extreme frustration.

        I have been living in a Bus for most of the past six years and interneting has been done from a second hand laptop when wifi is available. No problem copying and pasting links. Now using Samsung phone and a tablet…laptop locked in the Bus in mechanic's yard where it went for major work prior to Lockdown. I am doing my best.

        A cleverish person could just google the title and the journalist's name and find the article.

        Or even better be kind and post the link for me.😉

      • Sabine 3.1.2

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120973516/coronavirus-carers-forced-to-wash-and-reuse-masks-during-covid19-pandemic

        At the end of March, Ashley Bloomfield promised home care workers masks, gloves and gowns to keep them and their clients safe from Covid-19. Almost two weeks later, why are so many still going to work unprotected?

        When Katie* gets home from her shift as a home care worker, she takes the handful of flimsy, disposable, surgical masks she's been wearing that day and hangs them on the washing line.

        When she goes to work the next day, she reuses them.

    • Cinny 3.2

      Heard the same from a local disability caregiver just last week. Who also said supply of PPE does seem to depend on which agency a person works for. Her friend who works at a resthome says they have plenty of PPE. Made me wonder if they had gone to the media after reading the article, good on them if they did.

      Alice, here is the article Rosemary is referring to:
      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120973516/coronavirus-carers-forced-to-wash-and-reuse-masks-during-covid19-pandemic

      PPE supply shortfalls is one common global theme from this pandemic.

      • Rosemary McDonald 3.2.1

        Thanks Cinny (and Sabine) for posting the link.

        But Cinny…according to Uncle Ashley and his Merrie Folk at the Mystery of Health there is no shortage of PPE.

        ALSO, and sorry to shout, the guidelines for what kit a carer should be using when working with clients is obviously completely wrong and has be written by a numpty MOH policy wank who has clearly never provided any level on hands on care to another live person.

        And when the writer was instructed by the Misery mouthpiece to look at the revised guidelines they ended up back at the original page.

        I have been forced down the MOH rabbit hole on way too many occasions over the past two decades on disability issues and this surprises me not at all.

        Andrew Hall from the NZST represents largely ACC spinal injured and he's an intelligent and articulate and resourceful person who also happens to live with a spinal injury. If he's come up against brick walls, being both knowledgeable and personally incentivized, small wonder others are struggling.

        I do believe it would bother them at the Misery not a jot if the frail elderly and high needs disabled featured large in the death toll. If not from The Virus de Jour but from other seasonal bugs being trucked around by overworked and poorly resourced carers.

        Another whoopsie from the Ministry.

        • weka 3.2.1.1

          looks like a MoH fuck up to me too, all they need to do is broaden their advisory on their website. Chickens coming home to roost time, but of course it's not the managers that are wearing the shit.

          • Cinny 3.2.1.1.1

            but of course it's not the managers that are wearing the shit.

            Absolutely nailed it.

          • Rosemary McDonald 3.2.1.1.2

            It is my personal view that the MOH cannot be trusted to organize a bonk in a brothel.

            Despite having access to information from all parties in the process and total authority, they will find it near impossible effect actual physical connection between these parties.

            A monumental cockup in all but actuality.

            OTOH we could dispense with Hanlon and ascribe it to malice.

            What caused me to have grave concerns about Uncle Ashley was the '…no CPR for Covid 19 positive …' message he delivered 19 .40 mins into his Friday 3rd stand up.

            Haven't found a retraction from him personally yet.

            Messaging much.

            • weka 3.2.1.1.2.1

              any idea where I can find that? RNZ don't have it on their youtube.

              • joe90

                There is confusion over whether or not St John will perform CPR on a patient with confirmed coronavirus.

                The organisation said its threshold to commence or continue resuscitation needed to change due to the risk of infection via droplets.

                New guidelines on an internal document said a patient would only be resuscitated if a "primary cardiac arrest" had occurred.

                According to the staff directive obtained by Stuff, the cardiac arrest had to occur after an ambulance had arrived.

                Director-General of Health, Dr Ashley Bloomfield, confirmed the guidance in Friday afternoon's Government press conference.

                https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120797659/coronavirus-st-john-wont-perform-cpr-on-patients-with-covid19-unless-primary-cardiac-arrest

                • weka

                  what are the other times someone might need resuscitation if not a primary cardiac arrest? Blocked airway? Stopped breathing due to covid?

                  • weka

                    That article is a mess of contradictions.

                    • Carolyn_Nth

                      It is an answer to a question at 20 minutes into the you tube video.

                      Bloomfield says that the ambulance service is following international best practice, that if it is a confirmed case of C-19, they wouldn't do CPR as it is aerosol based. He also said that ambulances have full PPE gear.

                      Following links from NZ St John ambulance site, to a UK one,

                      Basically, the advice is to avoid proximity to the patient's breath, cover their mouth & nose with a towel or similar, don't perform CPR through a mask, but use chest compression CPR, and a defibrillator.

                    • Rosemary McDonald

                      "…a mess of contradictions.."

                      To be clear weka, you are not implying that the Mandow has written an article messy with contradictions. You are acknowledging that she has hit the nail exactly square on it's head. 😉

                      The whole sorry saga is a mess of contradictions and this is described with perfect accuracy in this article.

                      Welcome to our world.

              • Carolyn_Nth

              • Rosemary McDonald

                I found it last night…

                Googled…" no CPR for Covid 19 positive " and got the Stuff page to the clarification from StJohn which contained a link to the Friday Bloomfield stand up.

                Watched until I could give a time…

                I am pissed off to the max that I can't do the link thing. I can't even comment here on my Samsung tablet. This is on my phone.

                Grrr.. the tech has outwitted me.

            • weka 3.2.1.1.2.2

              No CPR in an ambulance because it's a droplet forming procedure. What do you think they should be doing Rosemary?

              • Rosemary McDonald

                Since it is highly probable that the first responders will not know if the person arresting is infected or not then the Precautionary Principle would apply and they would not risk droplet dispersion by chest pumping….anybody.

                Unless they were using the Full Kit.

                Then they would just carry on as usual wearing the PPE.

                BUT. Uncle Ashley has persisted in the message that health professionals only need PPE if they are up close to Covid 19 positive patients.

                At the same time as frontline health professionals have been begging for not only access to, but permission to wear facemasks with all patients.

                Because the safest way to prevent transmission is to assume everyone is infected.

                It seems to me that Uncle Ashley has been fumbling around like a virgin on his wedding night over the whole facemask issue. I really don't think he has a clue.

                If, as he claims, there is not a shortage of PPE in general and facemasks in particular, then why on earth are health workers on the frontline still begging?

                • weka

                  "Since it is highly probable that the first responders will not know if the person arresting is infected or not"

                  His comment was specifically about people that were known to have tested positive for cv.

                  "BUT. Uncle Ashley has persisted in the message that health professionals only need PPE if they are up close to Covid 19 positive patients."

                  Isn't CPR close up?

                  "If, as he claims, there is not a shortage of PPE in general and facemasks in particular, then why on earth are health workers on the frontline still begging?"

                  You've read the Newsroom piece, I think that explained it. I've put up a post now too, and apparently it was talked about a lot in today's briefing.

                  Please sort this out MoH

                  • Rosemary McDonald

                    The safest and most effective method of avoiding transmission is to assume everyone is infected and act accordingly.

                    Which means using PPE.

                    At the very least masks and eye protection.

                    Gloves are already SOP.

                    Reusable gowns….under certain circumstances.

                    Unfortunately, all the while that frontline health workers have been begging for masks,experts with media platforms have been busy with the message that facemasks are largely useless at preventing transmission. That message is now being modified with the proviso that mask wearers need to be properly educated in appropriate use thereof.

                    Because, like, doctors and nurses and caregivers are just not as smart as the Science Communicator de jour.

                    • weka

                      My caregivers hadn't been trained /shrug. I've never worn a mask in a situation like this.

                      I'm glad that yours are, but I wouldn't be relying on that nationally.

                      I'm not disagreeing with you on the need (although I think there are levels of need, depending on the care needed). I just pointed out that the Newsroom piece appeared to explain the problem: DHBs are working off the MoH online advisory, which is still the old version saying home care workers mostly don't need PPE.

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  The solution is simple – replace "Uncle Ashley" (Dr Bloomfield) with Aunty McDonald immediately. The Covid-19 pandemic, and all future health concerns, would vanish like so much dust in the wind.

                  Seriously, the impression I have is that "Uncle Ashley" is doing at least a fair-to-middling job so far. It is, to be sure, a very easy job, that practically anyone could do better, but who among us would want the responsibility?

                  Covid-19: Ashley Bloomfield’ rise to the top – the inside story
                  https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12324032

                  • weka

                    You really need to listen to disabled people about their experiences of the MoH. That Bloomfield is doing a good job with most of the covid management, doesn't mean there aren't gaps or the he is above criticism. The PPE is serious, no-one is yet listening to what disabled people at home are saying about this. Despite the Newsroom piece today (which the MoH would have known was coming out) the issue didn't come up even once.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      Wasn’t suggesting that there aren't gaps in the management of the Covid-19 response, including gaps relating to the disabled.

                      I’m disappointed that people choose to mock "Uncle Ashley" and others who have the pretty thankless task of leading/fronting the response. Maybe such mockery is constructive, but more likely it's just letting off some steam during lockdown – honestly can't see what other purpose it could serve.

                      Keep calm and carry on.

            • Psycho Milt 3.2.1.1.2.3

              What caused me to have grave concerns about Uncle Ashley was the '…no CPR for Covid 19 positive …' message he delivered 19 .40 mins into his Friday 3rd stand up.

              I'm trying to picture the country's emergency response organisations attempting to require their staff to perform CPR on people they know have COVID-19, and no I'm not seeing it. Are you seriously under the impression that Ashley Bloomfield could or should order emergency responders to do that?

              • Sabine

                i don't think that is what has Rosemary fuming.

                It is the fact that unless a test has been done you don't know when or when not a person has been or is infected with Covid, and thus this amounts to a rule where any first responder could refuse to initiate life saving measures irrespective of anything.

                So if you have a car accident and need CPR you might not get it. As all of us should be considered as infected, considering that many people are asymptomatic, unless proven otherwise.

                And yes, my partner the volly firefighter and his mates are still discussing this on how to actually handle this scenario should it come to pass.

                • The Bloomfield quote she complained about was specifically about no CPR for people who've tested positive for COVID-19. I don't see what there is to complain about with that instruction.

                  Situations where it's unknown whether the person has COVID-19 are different. But even there, it may be statistically highly unlikely that the person in trouble has COVID-19, but I can't see how the country can place any expectation on emergency responders that they should take that risk.

                  • Sabine

                    i know. But, how do you know someone has it when you get a call out?

                    Unless you test? How long does a test take?

                    By the time you tested and received that test result they are dead.

                    it works in a hospital environment, but not on the road and at home when you call St. John or the local Firebrigade or you have an road accident.

                    I guess this is why so much energy is spend on people to not go boating, mountain biking etc as simply the risk for accidents is large and then the risk to might not be able to get all of the needed first aid is also large.

                    If you be an unpaid St. John Volly, would you risk it?

                    • Don't know, as I'll never be put in that situation. Time and events have proven that I'm useless in an emergency. However, I sure as hell would not expect or demand that emergency responders give me CPR during this pandemic without knowing whether I had the disease or not. I don't believe anyone else is entitled to demand that either.

      • pat 3.2.2

        Certainly appears to some blockage in the home carer field…not sure if its a deliberate failing down the chain or a supply issue at the DHB level…what the MoH is saying dosnt appear to changing the reality at the coalface in some instances….could be organisational incompetence at the contracted service provider level of course which is highly possible going on past experience.

        • Rosemary McDonald 3.2.2.1

          Pat. Very possibly there is incompetence at the Contracted Providet level

          However I have been astounded by the depths of ignorance displayed by MOH bureaucrats when it comes to the lived reality of high needs disability and what is required to keep those in this group alive.

          Much is written in MOH:DSS documents about "enabling good lives' and 'assisting disabled people to reach their goals ', and it all sounds very kind and aspirational.

          But try and get most of these policy wonks to acknowledge that for some clients 'life' cannot happen unless an able bodied person with the appropriate skills arrives every morning to provide full assistance with basic shit, shower and shave. And dressing. And transferring into wheelchair. And food preparation and feeding.

          All up close and personal stuff which simply cannot be done from a distance of one metre.

          And some home based carets do this for a number of clients every day.

          Give them the bloody kit.

          Please.

          • pat 3.2.2.1.1

            Am aware of what carers do as they have been attending my mother for some years as well as my father until recently…the system of using contracted providers has all the typical problems of the model…and the skill level of the staff varies vastly….as with so much of our health system the lack of investment is biting us on the arse big time

  4. Adrian 4

    But we haven't even had the flu season here yet, and in China surely the flu season preceded the C-19. There is going to be a huge amount of data to analyse to try and make sense of what has and has not happened.

    Ironicly as I said to my grown up kids a month ago, it is looking like ( if we get it right ) that more Kiwis will be alive at the end of the four weeks than if the C-19 had never happened. The road toll will be down significantly and maybe also the murder rate as well as workplace deaths., so possibly we will be in credit by 30-40 Kiwis still alive.

    But that doesn't mean we should have let the apocalypse run its course, killing off the susceptable as well as hospital, ambulance and all sorts of other helping staff and leaving hundreds of thousands as sick as and 5000 plus of us to die an agonising horrific death the same as New York.

    Anybody espousing that mad scenario deserves an injection of this shit to teach them some humility.

    Of course if the government and especially a Labour Govt were to do nothing these self same arseholes would be screaming blue murder for the gummint to do something.

    • I Feel Love 4.1

      Ha! Yes to your last para. As far as the flu killing ppl, I don't think it kills bus drivers or nurses, surgeons etc in the numbers that the UK is seeing right now, every flu season.

  5. Anne 5

    A lighthearted look at what its like in Lockdown. I think everyone will recognise themselves in there somewhere. 😉

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120960579/alison-mau-if-you-think-halfway-is-bad-wait-till-we-get-to-day-20

    • Sabine 5.1

      we need some lightheaded reading from people who lost their jobs and businesses and who have no idea what they should do when the twelve week wage subsidy ends.

      Now that would be interesting. But i am glad to hear that a rich women is having a good time thanks to her favority fabric shop being now an essential service. Maybe she should sew some masks?

    • ianmac 5.2

      Sunday today? Really? Maybe it is Anne.

  6. peterh 6

    If anyone thinks we are near halfway, they are in dreamworld I am 80 and thinking at least 12 weeks level 4/3 I also hope that will happen, kill the virus then worry about any other matters, not many days ago the world were talking how great Singapore was doing, they opened up a little, 1700 in last week 300 yesterday

    • Sabine 6.1

      now you are just whining.

      Believe me.

      • peterh 6.1.1

        Believe me I am not whining, I just happy to go along with what all our experts and the WHO, But if you want to discuss whining I could pull out some of your messages over last couple weeks Im happy in my bubble

        • Sabine 6.1.1.1

          hence why i told you you were whining.

          i said the same thing before shutdown, and as you surely know no one wants to listen to Cassandra – i think she was cursed, right?

    • ianmac 6.2

      I think that Singapore has a large number of migrant workers who sleep in dormitories hence the resurgence. Or so the epidemitoligist said this morning.

      "kill the virus then worry about any other matters," Agreed Peter. Be disastrous if too early meant starting all over again.

      • Sabine 6.2.1

        to believe that it will be stomped out with a one off stay at home order is honestly naive.

        there is a reason why you only ever get the vaccine fro the last flue and never the current one.

        The best we can hope is that we understand how it works and thus be able to reduce mortality rates by treating it appropriatly instead of what we are doing right now which is to throw everything at it hoping that something will work on enough people to make a difference. And the very best we can hope is that some humans will build up immunity – at least to the current strain, that we get testing that is effective, and that maybe maybe a we are able to create vaccines for the different mutations of the virus.

        But no matter what we will have to do this on more then one occasion and hopefully by then we can do lockdowns in a more controlled fashion.

    • Ad 6.3

      Agreed and point well made.

      Australia and Singapore are the poles that influence the thinking of our public service – who are giving the advice to Cabinet for Monday 20 April.

      Existing under Alert Level 3 is going to take a tremendous amount of planning for every company. We've spent the last week just thinking:

      – How to separate work areas with separate lunchrooms, toilets, and offices

      – Whether any office worker needs to be in an office again, since meetings are working effectively online

      – Forms to sign each day stating who in your family is an Essential Service worker, who is sick, what's your temperature, everyone's contact details I nyour house, medical history, etc etc

      – We're not sure whether to require that none take public transport – there's debate on it.

      But the pressure to get everyone back to work before our home companies just fire us is growing every single day.

      • ianmac 6.3.1

        A huge job of logistics and of attitudes Ad. As a retiree my mind boggles.

      • McFlock 6.3.2

        Those forms are dodgy, for a start, and good luck ordering people how they should commute.

        The only "daily" factor there was temperature, and that's seven shades of pointless re:covid. Everything else is just a single checkbox: "do you meet any of these criteria?"

        But yeah, it's a hurdle. Another option might be "alternate work from home days" to widen up the workspacing.

        • Ad 6.3.2.1

          Many already come to work in shuttles organised by the subcontractors.

          Many others have company utes, and can pick people up for work. We just have to be organised, rostered, and turn up on time.

          We're also working on separated car parks for different worksites.

  7. joe90 7

    A statistic in the making.

    On Friday evening, about 730,000 cars, carrying perhaps 10% of Moscow's 12.7 million population, left the capital, centre of Russia's epidemic, for the countryside, according to Moscow's transport department.

    The exodus, perfectly legal, has raised fears that the virus is being carelessly spread across the country, and angered the residents of outlying regions who had thought themselves at least relatively protected.

    https://news.yahoo.com/muscovites-flee-coronavirus-shutdown-bringing-172149327.html

    • Sabine 7.1

      and like in the US and elsewhere, many of the rural areas will not have the hospital capacity and medical staff needed for people dropping like flies.

      oh well. Russia and the US can show us who 'herd immunity' looks like, right?

    • Treetop 7.2

      Your comment had me thinking about Chernobyl and the evacuation.

      I would like to know the age of those who were evacuated from Moscow. If the more vulnerable, this would be a clever move as the less vulnerable would probably be able to continue working and not be such a high risk to the 60 and above age group.

      • Sabine 7.2.1

        not a risk to themselves but a good risk to anyone they come in contact with.

        Young people may not die of Covid, but they can get it, stay asymptomatic and spread it like wild fire.

        So about the dumbest thing that could be done.

        • Treetop 7.2.1.1

          The Moscow evacuation is a story I will follow.

          There are limited medical resources in Moscow. Evacuating a non infected high risk group would free up resources.

          Covid-19 will show, that reducing the spread to the elderly will reduce the death rate. Rest home residents have been shown to be a higher risk.

      • joe90 7.2.2

        It's the rich leaving to spend the summer in their holiday homes.

        btw, the radioactive forests near Chernobyl are burning, too

        https://www.cnet.com/news/nasa-satellite-views-of-chernobyl-wildfires-paint-worrisome-picture/?

        • Treetop 7.2.2.1

          Do you know how frequent fires are inside the Chernobyl red zone?

          The size of the fire/s and duration would increase the radio active exposure.

        • Treetop 7.2.2.2

          I finally read the article about people taking Covid-19 to the country side.

  8. Forget now 8

    Sabine (@6.2.1)

    "Throw[ing] everything at it hoping something will work" is a very human response even if not really logical:

    A/ Something must be done!

    B/ This is something we could do?

    \= We must do that thing.

    We are not going to be leaving lockdown until there is a vaccine admittedly. But after a few months of lockdown we will hopefully get down to lower threat levels (maybe even level 1 in isolated places like Stuart Island).

    I live in a fairly rough part of Dunedin (with the housing crisis you take what you can get). If this stage 4 lockdown goes on much longer, this entire place is going to blow! People with little to lose don't have much reason to obey the law.

    • Sabine 8.1

      i have no issues with doctors trying to save lifes any way they can, especially in the face of a deadly and unknown illness. they do what they must and hopefully something will show as having an impact. I think its exclusion by trial or something like that.

      But i do not believe that we are being let out of our hovels on April 22nd, i don't believe that the wage subsidy is keeping people in their houses, well fed and mentally sane. And i agree with you that people will lose their shit if the Government does not start to speak up about the 'after'. Frankly, throwing peanuts at the working populace and the beneficiaries and locking them up for their own safety was the easiest part of this excersise.

      Like you i live in a blue collar, non gentrified, low income area of Vegas. Its not even a question of 'nothing to lose', its a question as to how long you can keep people living in over crowded housing without people cracking. How long can you tell people to not see their friends, family etc if only to keep sane – mentally and emotionally. To boot we are coming into winter and as we know, most of NZ housing stock is colder inside then outside.

      I do hope that the Goverment will finally start addressing the flood of newly unemployed people and how they are to live and above all 'where' once they lose their housing, the flood of mental illness that can't be addressed because people can't go to see a doctor (only essential ) herck maybe you can see a dentist to pull that thooth but you sure can't see the dentist to fill that hole, the family violence and so forth.

      Cause 580$ will only allow you to not die. It will not allow you to live, and by the time 12 weeks are over, they are to live of 280$. And for those that take umbrage at this comment, yes, benefits are too low, hence why i and many applauded Metiria Turei for coming out and letting anyone who cared know that she too cheated in order to survive.

      And if people don't get answers they will start breaking the rules.

      As we say in Germany, Zum leben zu wenig, zum sterben zuviel. Too little to live, too much to die.

  9. Incognito 9

    Another excellent piece by Henry Cooke on Stuff.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/120924212/another-day-another-crisis-inside-the-beehive-bubble

    The very last sentence [I don’t think it warrants a spoiler alert]:

    When you get to write it out as a news story its just data to feed into a well-worn formula, a coping mechanism that also happens to be your job.

    Indeed, I used to use my work to cope with life and my evenings, weekends, and non-work time [did anybody mentions holidays or socialising?] to cope with work. Now, I find writing here on TS has become one of my squeaky crutches to cope with the lockdown and global pandemic. It is affecting me more and in other ways than I could ever have imagined. It seems I’m not alone in this …

  10. Treetop 10

    It is not a good time to need to buy a fridge. A friend with a older baby and a 3 year old her fridge has packed in.

    Buying online is expensive as well.

    I told my friend to look at the government web site.

    Going to the supermarket more often is not ideal either.

    • Sabine 10.1

      Can she try a FB – Trade me place? Surely, fridges are essential? I.e. the fridge is outside the home from where she buys it, and only she or designated friend with trailer will pick Maybe a grant from winz, or maybe a Go Fund – give a little?

      • Treetop 10.1.1

        Just transporting the fridge would not be easy.Companies charge a lot just for the delivery.

        I will go online soon and see what the limited options are.

        • Sabine 10.1.1.1

          no i am more thinking of buying a second hand fridge and pick up.

          The only other way to do it if she is hard on cash would be to do a fundraiser or WINZ grant. But mind they don't work till tuesday and most likely will not have enough staff to answer phones or emails.

          • I Feel Love 10.1.1.1.1

            Can still buy fridges online, can pay off weekly, and yeah about $80 to deliver. I'm a solo dad who earns less than $800 a week and I'm certainly living thank you, I'm also living in a "rough area" (that term, ffs, we ain't tent city or have drug shoot outs or crack houses) in South Dunedin, one of the most densely populated areas of the country, and there is no sign of people "blowing up" (except the bozos letting off fireworks nightly).

            • Sabine 10.1.1.1.1.1

              People are still living here and so far no one is blowing up. Ditto, unless you talk about people who are losing it in supermarkets, or with their children or their spouse. But then we don't see that so it must not be happening? Right?

              However will that still be the same in say another four weeks? or is only hindsight allowed as foresight might be to unpleasant to contemplate? Good grief, Sometimes this 'i am good' so all is good is tedious. I am glad you can live on what you make, But i do have a crack house, a gang house and many properties in my neighbourhood that have 'rent a cabin' on their properties, and in them live people. So maybe its all good for you, as it is for me, but that does not mean it is for all. Is that so hard to understand and is it so hard to accept?

            • Forget now 10.1.1.1.1.2

              IFL

              What are you down near the beaches or some place flash like that? No methheads or gang houses on your block? Already been a few street brawls where I am. Feral dogs roaming the streets too.

              • I Feel Love

                byFlash? Ha!-Yeah, Fawcett St, mansions, swimming pools, helicopter pads … the most solo parents, the least internet connectivity, teen age parents, elderly, unemployed , we have it all and it's a wonderful neighbourhood. Look Sabine, I'm not a "I'm all right so fuck everyone else", I'm from Northland where some ppl don't even have power! I'm just refuting that Dunedin has "rough areas" (20 years as a posty, I know Dunedin) or that I'm dying earning less than $800 a week, I've got internet, I pay a mortgage (cheap house in cheap area in a cheap town, absolutely), I have kids, I have a car, I live.

              • I Feel Love

                I'm guessing you're up Corsto or Brockville? Always feral dogs up those areas, scary. edit: I personally find the “we’re all gonna die coz govt are useless” trope tedious frankly.

                • Forget now

                  I have already given out more personal information on a public forum than I feel comfortable with in retrospect. So neither confirming nor denying my location in any particular suburb of Dunedin.

                  However, I did eventually (more distraction than difficulty delayed me)find this old article that has a good map of the various deprivation areas of Dunedin:

                  https://www.odt.co.nz/lifestyle/magazine/lines-divide-dunedin-paper-road-separates-two-worlds

                  I am not aware that I have been going with a "we're all gonna die coz govt" trope. But then, I am really on edge barricaded in a house with kids to protect. Hard to walk outside when encroaching on the footpath outside certain houses gets glass bottles thrown at you! Fortunately we do have a fenced backyard.

                  If anything, my line is more; I hope the government remembers that people are messy and hard to slot neatly into tidy boxes. Especially meth-heads and alkies. Not interested in blame, just results.

    • KJT 10.2

      Put it out there on Facebook and see if someone in her district has one spare.

      Lots of kind people around. A family whose oven broke down around here were lent one for the lockdown.

      "Contactless delivery" may take a bit of organisation.

      • Sabine 10.2.1

        I think you can apply for a permit to leave your area if need be.

        I know a friend of mine in AKL who is now looking after a friend of his who is ill at home with a broken bones and can't move. He is allowed to have 'two bubbles' his one at home and as a carer at the other houses.

        So very rude he gets to ride his bike from one garage to another.

        • KJT 10.2.1.1

          You can move bubbles, "for safety reasons" such as domestic violence, and share a bubble with someone close by, who lives on their own.

          For the fridge, I was thinking of them getting on their local Facebook page to get one from close by.

          • Sabine 10.2.1.1.1

            also local Charity such as Habitat for Humanity. They might not be open but i am sure they still monitor emails of FB messages? And hey have the resources to manage a delivery.

    • Carolyn_Nth 10.3

      In some cases, Work and Income give funding to people who need white ware – I don't know what the criteria is.

      This from a AAAP Impact in South Auckland in 2016

      AAAP's advocates will work with beneficiaries to determine whether they are receiving all the benefits they are entitled to, including whether they need to get advances and grants to help buy essential household items like whiteware.

      AAAP website has contact details for people wanting advice during C-19 crisis.

  11. Some interesting and good ideas here but no cost analysis.

    I'm surprised that there's no mention of double glazing, as with insulation reducing energy needs should be the priority.

    Immediate shovel-ready projects to prioritise: 4. Introducing a Universal Basic Income is a long shot, it would likely take some time and a lot of working out how to structure and finance this.

    Government will have to be careful not to increase spending too much at a time that the PAYE and company tax takes will likely drop quite a a bit for a year or two.

    I note that an automated email is sent if you sign the petition even if you untick “I’d like to take urgent action for the Earth. Please send me email updates.”:

    Thank you for joining us in calling on the NZ Government to adopt a green economic stimulus response to the Covid-19 crisis.

    Please now send a quick email to your friends and family now to help increase your impact.

    We ask you to do this because it’s one of the best ways to make the campaign more powerful. The more support we get for this idea, the more likely our Government is to embrace it.

    A recent post on TS National’s Petition is Cynical Populism criticised the National Party for 'email harvesting' via a petition even though there was no evidence of that happening and Bridges assured it wouldn't be done.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Incognito 11.1

      A recent post on TS National’s Petition is Cynical Populism criticised the National Party for 'email harvesting' via a petition even though there was no evidence of that happening and Bridges assured it wouldn't be done.

      FFS! You’re still peddling the same shit!? I’ve asked you for evidence other than one Tweet by Henry Cooke to show that Simon Bridges had said what you claimed he had said. I’m still waiting.

      People received a follow-up e-mail after signing Nationals ‘petition’. Are you denying that? The e-mail addresses will be stored until the ‘petition’ is presented to the House of Representatives (or not). Where is National storing it? On a Treasury website per chance? On one of their laptops in the Party office in Epsom? An emotional junior staffer could delete it accidentally

      Thirdly, the e-mail opt-out is up-front on the Greenpeace petition form, not down one level as National’s is [present time].

      Lastly, Greenpeace is an independent organisation and not a NZ political party in full electioneering mode and cynically campaigning for something the Government is about to do anyway in a couple of days. False equivalence or just a simple misunderstanding on your behalf?

      You’re starting to piss me off, Pete, with your wilful and ignorant belligerence.

      • Pete George 11.1.1

        "People received a follow-up e-mail after signing Nationals ‘petition’. Are you denying that?"

        Of course not, I showed that it looks like a standard response to other petitions, just like the Greenpeace petition. But that doesn't show that National are harvesting the email addresses to use for other purposes.

        Are you doubting Henry Cooke's word? I at least provided something.

        It's more evidence than I've seen for claims that National are harvesting email addresses from the petition.

        Are you serious about your accusation of wilful aggressive or warlike behaviour? This is a political blog, I thought that calmly challenging claims and debating things raised was withing the rules here.

        • Incognito 11.1.1.1

          Yup, ignorant you are.

          Of course not, I showed that it looks like a standard response to other petitions, just like the Greenpeace petition. But that doesn't show that National are harvesting the email addresses to use for other purposes.

          Nope. There’s a difference in “standard response”. Have you been able yet to work out the difference between the Greenpeace and National petitions? Look closer and for helpful hints see @ 11.1. National’s petition prompted an e-mail follow-up and only then the opt-out (unsubscribe) appeared. It was clearly a baiting trap to harvest contact information for electioneering.

          Are you doubting Henry Cooke's word?

          No, not at all, but I’m not after Henry Cooke’s word, I want Simon’s word. Where is it? Bridges can claim plausible denial, as technically he’s never said what you claim he has said. Think about it for a second and see if the penny drops.

          It's more evidence than I've seen for claims that National are harvesting email addresses from the petition.

          You can’t have it both ways. If Cooke’s Tweet is your (only!) evidence for what Bridges said then the same Tweet is simultaneously evidence that National were collecting e-mail addresses from the petition. Both pieces of ‘evidence’ stand or fall together.

          Are you serious about your accusation of wilful aggressive or warlike behaviour?

          My apologies, I meant “petulant”.

          This is a political blog, I thought that calmly challenging claims and debating things raised was withing [sic] the rules here.

          Calmly repeating wilful ignorance is against the rules. It is also known as BS, making up shit, wilful denial, et cetera.

          • Pete George 11.1.1.1.1

            "technically he’s never said what you claim he has said"

            Technically you're making that up because you don't know.

            I didn't claim Bridges said it, I quoted a Henry Cooke tweet. If Cooke is correct and Bridges claims plausible deniability (something you seem to have just suggested as a possibility) then Cooke can hold him to account for it. Think about it for a second and see if the penny drops.
            ” the same Tweet is simultaneously evidence that National were collecting e-mail addresses from the petition.”

            No it isn’t. An automatic response is not evidence of collecting emails for campaign purposes, which was the original accusation.

            You keep implying I am "repeating wilful ignorance" with no evidence of that. It looks like wilful repeating to me, but I wouldn't say it's through ignorance.

            If you really wanted to know you could check with Cooke as to whether his tweet was wilful ignorance or not.

            • Incognito 11.1.1.1.1.1

              Technically you're making that up because you don't know.

              If you have any evidence other than the indirect one in Cooke’s Tweet then show it. Others and I have asked you repeatedly and you’ve returned a blank each time. It looks like there’s no other evidence to corroborate the Tweet by Cooke, not Simon’s Tweet. We all know Bridges is an experienced Twitterer so maybe he’s Tweeted it himself. Yes? Come on, Mr Bridges, show us your Tweet! I cannot find it anywhere here: https://twitter.com/NZNationalParty/status/1247998266102304768 or here https://twitter.com/simonjbridges

              I didn't claim Bridges said it, I quoted a Henry Cooke tweet.

              Yes, you did make that claim and your exact words were:

              But on this petition Bridges has explicitly said National won't retain any contact details from this petition. [my emphasis]

              So, where did Bridges say it, directly, in his own words, under his own name?

              If you really wanted to know you could check with Cooke as to whether his tweet was wilful ignorance or not.

              I wasn’t accusing Cooke of being wilfully ignorant, I was responding to you about you. You’re trying to divert again.

              Let me know when you’re thirsty …

              • Robert Guyton

                Have you ever wondered, Incognito, what it would feel like to be drowning in a huge tank of righteous pabulum?

      • Robert Guyton 11.1.2

        Starting to?

    • pat 12.1

      Firstly, Keen says, they should be implementing a modern debt jubilee now.

      "It's quite feasible to do it [but] I never thought it would happen. People asked me what chance I thought this had of happening. I said it's less than a snowflake's chance in hell. We are in hell now and the only way out of hell, as well as getting a vaccine for the virus, is to reduce this burden of private debt otherwise we'll have a financial collapse after the coronavirus," says Keen.

      The alternative, he argues, is mass loan defaults.

      "You simply have to accept that debt can't be repaid when too much debt has been issued. So we have to reduce private debt and we have to do it now. [We] should do a debt jubilee now, not once we get through this crisis. Otherwise there'll be many people who can't pay their rent, as well as people who can't pay their mortgages," says Keen.

      "If we do it now we'll enable the payments system to continue functioning. If we don't do it now then it's quite possible the payments system will collapse. Small businesses won't get any cash income, households won't get wages. Everybody will end up having no money in their bank accounts because that money will be used to pay off debt."

      • aj 12.1.1

        A number of reputable economists are suggesting this. Debt that can't be paid won't be paid. Extraordinary measures for extraordinary times.

        • pat 12.1.1.1

          theres a lot to what he says…I see hes moved to a regional model which is more workable IMO….but I still think he overestimates the possible level of autarky ….and still have concerns around UBI but it may end up being the least bad option.

          In any case the debt issue must be addressed

      • greywarshark 12.1.2

        Yes, back to debt-jubilee. Time for capitalist type business measures.

        But this will be done in true charity, not out of wily weaving round because of bad management. Act of God this, and now is time for the Jesus' Samaritan act.

  12. ianmac 13

    Just noticed my rubbish bag. Usually it is full to the brim even though we don't put food in the bag. This week it is only one quarter full. What? And the recycling bin is also about a quarter of the usual level. What?

    Why is that happening? Same amount of food/wrapping but no trips to Mitre 10 etc. Have not cleaned out the garage or cupboards but wouldn't use the rubbish bags for that anyway.

    • Herodotus 13.1

      No flyers in the letter box selling us specials that we don't need , no weekly local real estate mags of what is for sale in the region/area and no community newspapers.

      If we are not spending, then all the packaging that goes with that is not being discarded. No takeaways, be that food of coffee, more baking if our household is representative.

      Just a few suggestions as to why 😁

      • ianmac 13.1.1

        Suppose it must be those things Herodotus though we get no fliers and those weekly newspapers just join the dailies in the recycling. Seldom takeaways but those endless packaging being absent must be some of it.

        If every is having shortages of rubbish then it might be an indicator of significant drop in national waste. Must be something important in that, assuming every else is having same "problem."

  13. joe90 15

    Hmm…

    A vaccine against the coronavirus could be ready by September, according to a scientist leading one of Britain’s most advanced teams.

    Sarah Gilbert, professor of vaccinology at Oxford University, told The Times on Saturday that she is “80% confident” the vaccine would work, and could be ready by September. Experts have warned the public that vaccines typically take years to develop, and one for the coronavirus could take between 12 to 18 months at best.

    In the case of the Oxford team, however, “it’s not just a hunch, and as every week goes by we have more data to look at,” Gilbert told the London newspaper.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-11/coronavirus-vaccine-could-be-ready-in-six-months-times

    • Macro 15.1

      There was an interview on 9 to none with Kathryn Ryan last week where she interviewed a spokesperson from one of the American Big Pharma companies. I didn't catch all of it as I was busy in the workshop at the time but what I did hear was this:

      a. There is apparently world wide cooperation across Universities and Pharmaceuticals in an effort to develop a vaccine and each are pursuing a slightly different approach. But collaboration is the key ingredient so to speak.

      b. At the same time they are going ahead with developing the production process so that if and when the effectiveness and reliability of a vaccine is approved it can be speedily put into prodauction

      c. they realise that this needs to be a not for profit vaccine and are collaborating with govt's world wide for its eventual distribution.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018742144/the-race-to-find-a-vaccine-johnson-and-johnson

    • Adrian 15.2

      MERS is still killing 30% of people who contract it in the Middle East and there isn't a vaccine for that as far as I know. Nor SARS Cov 2 either.

      WHO website lists other epidemic all the rage at the moment.

      I seriously doubt that there will be a vaccine for this one but a lot will be found out about Cov19 while trying to find one. So why is so much money being spent trying to make one… just how much money do you think Trump et al would stump up if researchers said "We are not going to be able to make a vaccine but we will learn a lot about it ".

      • Andre 15.2.1

        I wouldn't take the lack of a vaccine against MERS as any kind of indication that a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine won't get developed.

        The total worldwide cumulative number of MERS infections is around 2500, with around 850 deaths. Its person-to-person transmissibility appears very low. Infection risk appears much higher among those that get up close and personal with camels, and in recent years the disease has been pretty much confined to Saudi Arabia.

        So there's just not much incentive to develop a vaccine against MERS. Whereas with SARS-CoV-2, there's a huge incentive to develop a vaccine.

      • lprent 15.2.2

        As far as I can see there are no vaccines for any viruses in the corona family.

        The SARS-CoV-1 got the furthest through, but after 10 years when almost all of the funding for finding one was shutdown, they were only just finding ones that looked viable for human testing. In other words, it took them a decade.

        MERS-Cov looks like it is in the same boat. The epidemic started in 2012 and still has cases. But they have only recently progressed to human trials.

        Wikipedia

        It is believed that the existing SARS research may provide a useful template for developing vaccines and therapeutics against a MERS-CoV infection.[36][37]. As of March 2020 there was one (DNA based) MERS vaccine which completed phase I clinical trials in humans[38], and three others in progress all of which are viral vectored vaccines, two adenoviral vectored (ChAdOx1-MERS[39][40], BVRS-GamVac[41]) and one MVA vectored (MVA-MERS-S[42]).[43]

        They will be using the accumulated SARS and MERS research for developing a vaccine. Like this. But in my opinion as a systems/development orientated person looking at history, I’d guess that any vaccine is more likely to be viable in a 5 year range rather than 18 month range.

        Personally I think that targeting treatments to stop people having to go to ICU level treatment is going to be a preferable target for immediate development.

        But I hope that this time we’ll see corona virus vaccine development actually pushed through to fruition. This is unlikely to be the last from that family and it appears that they’re pretty good at adapting to high density human populations (their primary host appears to be high density bat populations).

  14. joe90 16

    FFS.

  15. adam 17

    Finally the reality has set in to many americans, that the strategy to get a left wing candidate in the democratic party is just a no go. The democratic party is a corporation all of its own needs, wants and desires of money and power. Indeed whilst the democrats have had control, they have done sweet bugger all to fix inequality.

    The plan, a third party coalition working in the interests of working people.

    https://peoplesparty.org/

    • Andre 17.1

      Will it be led by the People's Poet?

      • adam 17.1.1

        You managerial class types hate it when working people actually get their shit together.

    • joe90 17.2

      Because the Dems are the real problem and you and your ilk are ok with 4 more years of tRump in order to either teach Dems a lesson or burn the party to the ground. And somehow that will guarantee the success and purity of the progressive message.

      Idiot.

      https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2015/12/13/1458098/-The-privileged-idiocy-of-Just-let-the-Republicans-win

      • Sabine 17.2.1

        well they are not gonna vote again for Jill Stein, so a new party was needed.

      • adam 17.2.2

        I'm the idiot when you just lied about what I said and my intentions.

        I'll leave now as that is the what you. Thanks for shutting down the debate.

        • Sabine 17.2.2.1

          what did we just say that got you so upset? p;

          Fwiw, no third party atm has a chance in the US. And to add, i don't think the US will have elections in November and i am basing this on the recent ruling of the Supreme Court who forced voters in Wisconsin to go out and vote in person during a deadly pandemic.

          edited.

      • mauī 17.2.3

        Blame the voter.. nice one Joe… Would you and sleepy Joe be able to spot a political movement if it was staring you in the face… on this evidence probably not.

        • joe90 17.2.3.1

          Check the bios of those involved in this particular political movement.

        • Sabine 17.2.3.2

          fuck yeah,

          i blame the white economical anxious working male, the 'pro life' all sperm are sacred evangelic white voters fort his heep of shit and his thoroughly shitty family. and the shitty party that supports them cause money.

          https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-s-coronavirus-task-force-amassed-power-it-boosted-industry-n1180786?cid=public-rss_20200412

          sometimes you don't vote for a shitty excuse like Jill Stein just because you don't get your will. Sometimes you vote for the least shitheel on the block, considering that it will be your living room carpet with the shitstains left behind.

          The Children' and the '40-40-20' formula

          The two priorities that officials say have not been sacrificed by Trump or his supply chain task force, dubbed “the children” inside FEMA’s headquarters, are private profit and the ability of the White House to choose where supplies go.

          Members of the team include friends and close allies of Kushner, who is also the president’s son-in-law. Brad Smith, described as a “volunteer” because he is on loan from his job as deputy administrator of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, is a Kushner friend who has been involved in its work.

          The supply chain task force leaders pushed aside the existing federal emergency management response teams that had long-established methods for engaging assistance from the public and private sectors. Instead, they first reached out to personal contacts, according to people familiar with their operations. To the extent that they have absorbed some of the old practices over the course of time, with the help of career officials intent on bringing their actions in line with protocol, it has taken time to figure out their own system.

          "Jared and his friends decided they were going to do their thing," said the senior government official involved in the response effort. "It cost weeks."

          i might not be happy with the current goverment or the last one and so on, but i never in my life have willingly voted for someone whom i know to be a sadist, a serial sexual offender, a gambler, a liar, a thief, to name just a few of the fine characteristics of Donald Trump and pretend that i did so because the alternative was worse.

          So yeah, our political parties resemble the voters, and sadly our democracy does not grant us 'none of the fucking above' as a valid choice. So in order to be a decent citizen, who wants the best for the country and the ones following us when we are dead and dust, we only ever get to vote for the least of all evils. And he is fucking evil, and people now have to bury their loved ones as a consequence. So yeah, blame the white economically anxious white working male – as no other working class is ever of importance – and their pro life beckys and karens and their priests and prophets of the golden calf.

  16. bwaghorn 18

    I just read in a herald article ( just the first couple of lines due to pay wall) that labour is at 49% and nats at 35% .

    Was hdpa s article.

    • Treetop 18.2

      The government has delivered a relief package for 12 weeks. This is the priority before a stimulus package.

      I am pleased NZ is not like the EU about relief money. EU not being able to agree on how borrowed money will be paid back. At least Boris Johnson has escaped the EU infighting.

      How much of NZ's relief package would be stimulating the economy?

  17. Sabine 19

    but the emails

    NYT just published 80 pages of internal emails from the "Red Dawn" groups within the Trump administration, mostly health and national security professionals alarmed about the peril of covid-19. With names and dates.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/11/us/politics/coronavirus-red-dawn-emails-trump.html

    all emails below

    .com/data/documenthelper/6879-2020-covid-19-red-dawn-rising/66f590d5cd41e11bea0f/optimized/full.pdf#page=1

    oh well, hindsight? Right?

  18. KJT 21

    I've shamelessly lifted this from facebook.

    However, it nails it.

    "Money men and morons risking a 2nd wave of infection

    Up until very recently Singapore has been regarded as "the gold standard" in the fight against Covid-19.

    On Wednesday, Singapore reported a record of 142 new infections in the city-state, many of which have been connected to foreign workers living in compact dormitories.

    This was the second major outbreak in Singapore – after weeks of successfully controlling the outbreak within its borders.

    The recent resurgence of infections has prompted the government to implement a lockdown, closing down schools and most workplaces for a month.

    They had not actually done a lockdown – until now.

    Dr Hosking had angrily insisted we do what Singapore was doing – before insisting all victims of Covid-19 were going to die anyway and let's not crash the economy – before Boros went to ICU – and then Dr Hosking flip flopped like a scruffy turd burger for a third time.

    OMG take his microphone away !

    Opposition for opposition's sake became the target for public ridicule and now Dr Hosking is a bad nationwide joke, slightly in front of Simon Bridges who is running a very close second.

    But there have been other equally dangerous and misleading voices telling us to hurry back to mixing and socialising like that cat hating dude with the graphs.

    You know Mr Morgan – that guy!

    He does not know much about viruses really – and media are promoting his views that we rush back based on his simple graphs.

    He says that – because Australia is still living it up – he reckons we've already overcooked things here.

    Get ready for a second wave if you follow these money men and not the real medical experts.

    Large segments of the most wealthy are pretty damned thick and the Nats will be wailing to the moon about cash soon enough – not public health.

    Today Jacinda Ardern slapped Heather du Plessis-Allan across the chops with a dead mullet until she got it into her thick head that the simplistic high level thinking of brain dead Nats on Newscrap ZB involved imagining cramming returning kiwis into cramped, confined facilities which would have become death traps.

    "It's a no brainer" they all repeated without once talking through scale, the timing issues, the space requirements, the food, the security …..or anything remotely connected to the reality of the concept.

    Truth be known – none of them appreciated the scale nor the logistics of mandatory quarantine but instead – they all said "Finally" as if this should have happened three weeks ago…when it was logistically impossible because of scale.

    These bone heads would have recreated several land based cruise ships – where thousands became infected in close confines – because of their low detail thinking.

    Sticking to evidence, the best medical advice and being ultra careful about each step – involves shaking off the loud cacophony of politically motivated, grandstanding fuck heads, who dominate our media landscape.

    The recent spike of cases in Singapore underscored how easily the virus can spread even with social distancing measures in place – and it may give us a glimpse of what will happen it we lose our patience and listen to "economic experts" instead of scientists and medical experts.

    Let's not fuck this up, by letting ego maniacs with big wallets and megaphones snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

    Money men and morons risking a 2nd wave of infection."

  19. While there is some obvious crossover there should be a separation between environmental and green issues.

    There's a crossover between social issues, environmental issues, business and employment issues, financial issues and health issues, so it seems odd that Greens just chose to connect environmental and social issues. Health and finance are closer to social issues than the environment.

    At times it appears to me that Greens use the environment as an excuse to promote social fixes.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • pat 22.1

      you almost grasped it….and then it slipped away.

      Its ALL connected

    • weka 22.2

      Dude, you don’t get to centristsplain to actual greenies what their politics are, especially under a post that is an exemplar of green politics. I haven’t read your other recent comments yet, but my suggestion is that you read the post properly and get with the kaupapa at the end of it. Putting you in premod so I can keep an eye on it.

    • KJT 22.3

      Pete George.

      Another who is stupid enough to think we can have environmental sustainability, without economic and social sustainability.

      Well. Maybe we can, but you wouldn't like the sort of Government, that would entail.

  20. alwyn 23

    I wonder if we can expect an attack on this petition by someone who will declare it to be "cynical populism" and an attempt to harvest e-mail addresses?

    I note that your e-mail address is a required entry if you wish to sign. Can we expect people who objected to the National petition to be complaining about "harvest(ing) thousands of signatures under false flag pretences."?

    And no I am certainly not going to be charging in to do so. Parliament requires the address after all as the protesters about the National petition should have known.

    Edit. Accidentally hit the submit button before I had finished.

    I personally think that there are a lot of excellent ideas there. Whether we can afford them when we finally get society working again and having a few hundred thousand out of work is another matter.

    [lol, nice try with the edit, but you still can’t use my posts to do attack comments or post offtopic. You can hash it out with Pete who already had a go, in OM – weka]

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Incognito 23.1

      This is the carefully worded attack that I’ve come to expect from a smart Alek like you.

      I wonder if we can expect an attack on this petition by someone who will declare it to be "cynical populism" and an attempt to harvest e-mail addresses?

      I think you might be in for a disappointment.

      I note that your e-mail address is a required entry if you wish to sign. Can we expect people who objected to the National petition to be complaining about "harvest(ing) thousands of signatures under false flag pretences."?

      Not a good day for you, it could be a double disappointment.

      Parliament requires the address after all as the protesters about the National petition should have known.

      Disingenuous comment. People click away online and give away loads of (personal) information in the process. This is what National was banking on but you missed the point(s) as did Pete George.

      I could swear that Pete George and you are related. You should have a look at his comments @ 11, 11.1.1, and 22, but I warn you, it will be like looking in the mirror.

      • Pete George 23.1.1

        "This is what National was banking on"

        Have you got any evidence of this? Or is it wilfil ignorance?

        • Incognito 23.1.1.1

          It’s staring you in the face, Pete, and you’re still asking for ‘evidence’!?

          We’ve been through this before, ad nauseam, and yet you remain wilfully ignorant, indeed, or incredibly naive.

          You’ve read the article by Anna Rawhiti-Connell that Cinny linked to yesterday.

          Here it is again, to refresh your memory: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/114795111/anna-connell-battle-lines-drawn-in-race-for-election-clicks

          National knows how it works and launched an unnecessary petition through which it collated e-mail addresses of voters. Some signed up unwittingly, which was entirely predictable, but their details will be deleted at some stage (??) according to Henry Cooke. Meanwhile, National is still collating ‘signatures’ despite the fact the mandatory quarantine has been in full force for three days! Why??

          Yet, you maintain it’s perfectly normal!?

          Nothing to see here, move on!

          You can lead a horse to water …

          • Pete George 23.1.1.1.1

            You’ve read the article by Anna Rawhiti-Connell that Cinny linked to yesterday.

            False.

            National knows how it works and launched an unnecessary petition through which it collated e-mail addresses of voters.

            I expect National knows how it can work. It's reasonable to think that National didn't consider the petition unneccesary. Ardern had not stated when quarantining of all people arriving in New Zealand which a number of people had been urging, including National and Dr David Skegg.

            You haven't shown any evidence that National collated email addresses of voters (or of petition signers who aren't necessarily voters) – and that's a different thing to autoresponding emails which are standard for petitions.

            …their details will be deleted at some stage (??) according to Henry Cooke.

            I don't think a journalist of Cooke's standing would make that up. Do you? You don't seem to put any credence on what he tweeted.

            Meanwhile, National is still collating ‘signatures’ despite the fact the mandatory quarantine has been in full force for three days! Why??

            I don't know why. Perhaps the petition has a set time to run. Perhaps they want to do it for publicity purposes. Perhaps Bridges was lying about not gathering emails for other purposes, or Cooke was lying about Bridges saying all email address data would be deleted. Or it could be something else. Jumping to a conclusion or speculating about something that's not know seems a bit pointless.

            Yet, you maintain it’s perfectly normal!?

            I've never maintained that. I've just questioned you claiming things for which you have not backed up with any evidence.

            • Incognito 23.1.1.1.1.1

              False.

              I thought you were commenting here in good faith. Cinny linked to article by Anna Rawhiti-Connell saying “Here's the article, via Stuff, via Newsroom from April 2019”. However, you corrected her saying “That's from August last year.” How did you know this if you hadn’t clicked on the link? Are you trying to tell me you clicked on the link, looked at the date only, and then closed it again without reading? And you still haven’t read it? Yeah, right!

              I expect National knows how it can work. [my emphasis]

              Why do you have to turn things into a beige watered down version of reality, Pete?

              Simply: National knows how it does work. FIFY.

              You obviously haven’t figured out that that not all “autoresponding emails” are identical; the Greenpeace and National e-mail responses were quite different in one important aspect and you have closed your eye to it and turn your head away from it. Can’t you deal with this inconvenient fact?

              Does National have the e-mail addresses in its possession, Pete? If you don’t know, which I’m sure you were going to give as answer, do you think it is likely they keep these details somewhere until they present the petition to the appropriate recipient in the House of Representatives? I wonder what weasely way with words you’ll come up with; I can almost not wait.

              Is Henry Cooke the Leader of the National Party? No, he is not. You’re diverting away the focus, which is on Simon Bridges. When Bridges signs a document, he lets Cooke sign it on his behalf? When Bridges gives a press conference, he lets Cooke do the talking? It would save him the long commute to Wellington each time and he can stay with his family in Tauranga.

              When I see something that doesn’t stack up I could wait, e.g. till somebody else starts asking questions, or till the cows come home. Or I could take a position and write about it in order to get to the bottom of it, unlike you who seems to wait till it is an ironclad crystal-clear case and then you may come off the fence and offer your opinion. Would that be a fair description?

              I don’t think it is pointless to dig hard and deep while we are in a State of Emergency and in an Election Year. Weird comment from a blogger and part-time journalist.

              No, you haven’t just questioned my claims, which could be completely wrong. You have defended Bridges and National’s petition all the way and said that it is an ordinary petition with an ordinary response and nothing untoward about it.

              My ‘evidence’, so far, is in the link you provided to Cooke’s Tweet plus all the other stuff that doesn’t stack up; you could call it ‘circumstantial evidence’ as well as means, motive, and opportunity.

              Have you seen this?

              https://www.facebook.com/ads/library/?id=3104025276296746

              It is a political ad and political advertising, in Election Year. Oh dear …

  21. joe90 24

    If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. The will reject democracy.

    Never tRumper.

  22. pat 25

    I will never view the word 'patriarchy' the same again…everyone has plenty of spare time (except essential workers, thank you)….spend a productive hour and listen.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/smart_talk/audio/2018741853/kim-hill-speaks-with-dr-kristen-ghodsee-about-her-book-why-women-have-better-sex-under-socialism

  23. greywarshark 26

    Another sort of crisis. No house, destruction, food? Poor Vanuatu and that area, Fiji flooded, 50 hotels closed in Samoa on Radionz. Cyclone Harold.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2020/apr/09/cyclone-harold-aerial-footage-shows-destruction-across-vanuatu-video

    There is always someone worse off isn't there. One of those unhappy things in life.

  24. joe90 27

    Can't find anything to confirm this, yet.

    edit:
    Hong Kong (CNN)The African community in Guangzhou is on edge after widespread accounts were shared on social media of people being left homeless this week, as China’s warnings against imported coronavirus cases stoke anti-foreigner sentiment.

    In the southern Chinese city, Africans have been evicted from their homes by landlords and turned away from hotels, despite many claiming to have no recent travel history or known contact with Covid-19 patients.

    CNN interviewed more than two dozen Africans living in Guangzhou many of whom told of the same experiences: being left without a home, being subject to random testing for Covid-19, and being quarantined for 14 days in their homes, despite having no symptoms or contact with known patients.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/10/china/africans-guangzhou-china-coronavirus-hnk-intl/index.html

  25. Paul 28

    Only believe in half of what you see and nothing of what you hear, there is so much bullshit past around we have to stick to facts.

    they don’t come to us with media

    • weka 28.1

      Hi Paul, can you please pick another user name as we’ve had a long term commenter in the past called Paul. eg Paul2 or Paul[letter] would work.

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