Open mike 12/10/2019

121 comments on “Open mike 12/10/2019 ”

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1. A 1

   12 October 2019 at 7:09 am

   Curious to know…what would be your justification for increasing the rate of pension at this point in time?
   • A 1.1

     12 October 2019 at 11:42 am

     Nobody?
     • weka 1.1.1

       12 October 2019 at 12:08 pm

       so that lots of old people don't have live the end stages of their lives in poverty.
   • Descendant Of Smith 1.2

     12 October 2019 at 11:55 am

     I'd put benefits up to the super rate – as they used to be.

     Lower the age back to 60 and slightly increase taxation from the point of NZS + NZS equivalent in extra earnings.

     This would mean you could earn super plus super again without any further impact but once you got over twice the NZS you'd pay more tax to help cover the cost of NZS.

     Why – money needs to circulate through the economy. Giving the people with the least more helps do that.

     I can recall 50 or so local businesses shutting up shop after the Richardson benefit cuts. Mainly small ones and locally owned. Opened the doors up for the chains to take over and the fake competition as many are owned by the same parent companies.
     • A 1.2.1

       12 October 2019 at 12:14 pm

       Interesting. Someone people I know have put forward similar idea targeting those who will never work again, but obviously it would be very beneficial if everyone had the same base.
       • A 1.2.1.1

         12 October 2019 at 12:34 pm

         And here we are, another demographic that needs an increase in funds

         https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/116494305/millennial-money-woes-financial-stress-making-one-in-five-young-adults-physically-ill

         The graph shows under 65s least stressed
         • Descendant Of Smith 1.2.1.1.1

           12 October 2019 at 1:33 pm

           Aye which is why my priority would be to first increase benefits – and get rid of the youth rate that was pushed up from 17 to 24.

           In short make benefits back to the same rate as NZS and remove the age discrimination.
           • A 1.2.1.1.1.1

             12 October 2019 at 7:55 pm

             Yea…that youth rate seems to assume their living costs are lower (like they live on the floor or something). Completely unrealistic.
2. phillip ure 2

   12 October 2019 at 7:51 am

   the top 20..

   https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/09/revealed-20-firms-third-carbon-emissions

   'New data shows how fossil fuel companies have driven climate crisis despite industry knowing dangers..’

   they need to be moved against – and soon..

   the question being the mechanics of this..

   how will we do it..?
3. francesca 3

   12 October 2019 at 8:49 am

   Julian Assange has served out his sentence for bail jumping.It would have to be one of the most severe sentences for that relatively minor crime.

   It has been decided that he will remain in prison, even though he hasn't been convicted of anything.I suspect the US , with the connivance of the UK is hoping he will die of an "unforeseen pre existing condition " Perhaps there will be an Epstein type suicide There will be earnest articles in newspapers on how the prison system needs to be reformed.

   Denizens of TS pack will sneer and compete to come up with the most puerile jibes, say he only has himself to blame , exonerating whats happening to him right here and now and exemplifying what Nils Melzer of the UN has said

   " there has been a relentless and unrestrained campaign of public mobbing, intimidation and defamation against Mr. Assange, not only in the United States, but also in the United Kingdom, Sweden and, more recently, Ecuador.” According to the expert, this included an endless stream of humiliating, debasing and threatening statements in the press and on social media, but also by senior political figures, and even by judicial magistrates involved in proceedings against Assange."

   https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=24665

   In effect the UK elites are holding an increasingly frail Assange with his arms tied behind his back so the bully boys of the US can take turns at beating the shit out of him for daring to expose war crimes

   Chelsea Manning still stands by him, refusing to commit perjury by testifying against him For that she remains in prison and continues to be fined $1000 a day . Ludicrous!

   The Swedes , after 7 years of dilatory paper shuffling, opening and closing the rape case can still not decide whether charges should be laid.Can anyone say this is justice for the accused or complainant? The Swedish Court declared that prosecutors could travel to the UK and question Assange.This was back in early June, .still no moves towards this.

   Cue "No rush.He's not going anywhere".. snort smirk fist bumps from other red blooded males on TS

   I consider the Assange case to be pivotal , far more so than the Dreyfus affair was in the 19th early 20 th century.If Assange is destroyed, to pretty much universal public indifference, ( as a result of the very successful campaign Melzer refers to), the bastards have won and we're totally screwed Anyone can be shut down, all of us.

   The shame is collective, its on all of us

   I've wriiten to various ministers , urging them to uphold UN rulings and honour our commitment to human rights, but I'm afraid the special relationship is very special indeed

   Not interested in sparring matches with the usual sportsmen on TS
   • Andre 3.1

     12 October 2019 at 9:20 am

     If you're "not interested in sparring matches with the usual sportsmen on TS", then why the showboating come-ons like "Cue "No rush.He's not going anywhere".. snort smirk fist bumps from other red blooded males on TS" and "Denizens of TS pack will sneer…" ?
     • weka 3.1.1

       12 October 2019 at 10:06 am

       I'm wondering that too.
       • Sacha 3.1.1.1

         12 October 2019 at 11:16 am

         "Denizens of TS pack will sneer…" is a classic bad faith tactic that promotes disruption rather than understanding. Do we need that here?
         • Incognito 3.1.1.1.1

           12 October 2019 at 9:00 pm

           I agree that it is poor choice of words and possibly done in or with bad faith, but maybe not necessarily as a “tactic”. I could read it as an expression of frustration rather at the utterly predictable and tedious responses from some commenters on this site, none of which promote understanding other than to demonstrate the limited evolution of thinking of those commenters on the particular topic or issue at hand. I can list a few trigger words that elicit ad nauseam exchanges of arguments opinions and counter-arguments counter-opinions that never ever lead to the discernment of the truth. Some call it post-modernism but I call it boring willy-waving contests of fragile egos.
     • McFlock 3.1.2

       13 October 2019 at 12:18 am

       Actually, I think I said that the last time some doofus complained that the Swedes weren't working according to the preferred schedule of some NZ blog commenter.

       And now that the yanks have put through an extradition request, Francesca is complaining that the guy who jumped bail for seven years isn't getting bail again. What a joke.
   • phillip ure 3.2

     12 October 2019 at 9:36 am

     i was one of those who stood and gave him a standing ovation – when he appeared on the screen at that benchmark in anti-climaxes – the kim dotcom 'great reveal'..

     since then i have been discomfited by the fact that everything he did in the 2016 u.s. election – was to help trump get elected…

     does that dichotomy puzzle you at all..?
     • francesca 3.2.1

       12 October 2019 at 9:40 am

       Clinton was sunk by Assange exposing the truth?

       Clinton actually won the popular vote.

       Blame the electoral college
       • Andre 3.2.1.1

         12 October 2019 at 9:58 am

         Nice work putting words into Phil's mouth and diverting from Phil's actual point.
         • francesca 3.2.1.1.1

           12 October 2019 at 10:09 am

           And once more Andre, you fail to actually address the point of my post , but never mind , Mars and Venus and all that

           All the best to you
           • Andre 3.2.1.1.1.1

             12 October 2019 at 10:33 am

             If you're actually interested in anyone else's opinion of Assange and his situation, well, here's mine:

             Assange's work in setting up wikileaks and making it easier to publish information such as that provided by Manning was a huge service to the world in general. Particularly since it did entail some degree of personal risk. Although nowhere near as much risk as the likes of Manning who paid the price while Assange took the credit.

             Unfortunately, as others around him started to share his monumentally high opinion of himself, he let his inner asshole off the leash. Which led to a series of increasingly crap personal decisions leading to the situation he is now in.

             Yes, it is extremely dangerous to press freedom that Assange is being held for extradition to the US to be punished for publishing factual information, no matter how charges against him may be twisted to make it appear he was operating outside of First Amendment protections. For the sake of all kinds of freedoms, I hope he is able to outright beat the extradition proceedings, or at least drag them out until there is a more rational president and DOJ that reach reach the same conclusion as Obama and Holder in 2013 – that the "New York Times problem" means it would be damaging to US interests as a whole to prosecute Assange.

             Yet on a personal level, Assange's activities in 2016 to damage Clinton (which went way beyond just publishing DNC emails) and thereby inflict the Queens loofah-faced shitgibbon on the world, means that I really don't give a shit what happens to Assange personally. It is possible for people that have done extraordinarily positive things to completely wipe out whatever karmic credit they may have earned by also doing extraordinarily crap things.

             edit: And phil’s comment was directly related to your original post. But your reply to phil was completely unrelated to anything in phil’s comment.
             • weka …

               12 October 2019 at 10:52 am

               can you give a brief explanation of the evidence/argument that Assange sabotaged Clinton during the election campaign?
               • Andre …

                 12 October 2019 at 11:06 am

                 There's the issue of wikileaks only publishing info harmful to Clinton and Democrats, nothing harmful to Fuckface von Clownstick or Repugs in general. And the way releases were timed to move the news cycle on from things damaging to Grabby McHandsy, such as a bunch of stuff released shortly after the Access Hollywood tape came out.

                 Wikileaks also played a big part in pushing shit like the Seth Rich nonsense, the Uranium One smears, the lies about Clinton's health etc.

                 Here's a few pieces for more reading:

                 https://qz.com/1533847/roger-stones-indictment-reveals-plan-to-discredit-hillary-clintons-health/

                 https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/11/wikileaks-trump-mueller-roger-stone-jerome-corsi/576940/

                 https://www.vox.com/2016/9/15/12929262/wikileaks-hillary-clinton-julian-assange-hate

                 edit: and unrelated to 2016, there’s also wikileaks’ extreme carelessness around some vulnerable peoples’ personal information, putting them at risk. Concerns that Assange didn’t give a rat’s about when it was raised with him, IIRC.
                 • weka …

                   12 October 2019 at 12:24 pm

                   thanks, I didn't know about the timing issue.

                   Am aware of the personal info issue, it was probably the final straw for me.
       • Psycho Milt 3.2.1.2

         12 October 2019 at 11:33 am

         phillip ure wrote:

         since then i have been discomfited by the fact that everything he did in the 2016 u.s. election – was to help trump get elected…

         francesca replied:

         Clinton was sunk by Assange exposing the truth?

         That's a classic "straw man" fallacy, with a bit of "false dichotomy" thrown in. It's a straw man because phil made no claim that Trump was elected entirely thanks to Assange, and it's a false dichotomy because the implied argument involves only two opposite possibilities: either Assange was responsible for Trump's victory, or he didn't help Trump's campaign at all.
     • Nic the NZer 3.2.2

       12 October 2019 at 11:56 am

       Seems quite likely Assange personally doesn't like Clinton. Didn't she say she would be personally more than happy to see him dead or something?

       But on the other hand if Assange only/mostly gets interesting material on Clinton rather than Trump then whats to do?

       Assanges politics should be irrelevant.
     • adam 3.2.3

       12 October 2019 at 11:16 pm

       Disagree phillip ure, the NSA Targets World Leaders for US Geopolitical Interests seemed to me too have go at the whole establishment.

       https://wikileaks.org//nsa-201602/

       Are you saying the whole Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership reveal was to help trump?

       https://wikileaks.org/ttip/

       Case could be made for the DNC leaks, but no one believed them – so why do you think they had an impact?

       Mind you this is one after the election, but boy howdy did the FSB have a melt down over this.

       https://wikileaks.org//spyfiles/russia/
       • phillip ure 3.2.3.1

         13 October 2019 at 6:36 am

         i am not debating whether or not his help-trump plans succeeded or not..

         my concerns are around that he had those plans in the first place…

         and did what he could to makes those plans succeed/get the orange ball of pus elected..

         there lies the dichotomy – as i see it…
         • Andre 3.2.3.1.1

           13 October 2019 at 7:29 am

           With respect to Assange's motivations, I suspect it was more Hillary-hate and a desire to fuck with the US as a whole, rather than any fondness for the waddling spray-tan warning label.

           That's a bit of a distinction without a difference, though. In either case, the resulting actions and results are the same.
           • Sacha 3.2.3.1.1.1

             13 October 2019 at 7:53 am

             My enemy's enemy is my.. oops.
             • Andre …

               13 October 2019 at 8:05 am

               Yeah, I'd be at least 80/20 that President Hillary and her DoJ would have come to the same conclusion as Obama and Holder about the "New York Times problem". And that she would be professional enough to take Assange trying to damage her electorally as just politics, that the interests of press freedom for the US as a whole would take precedence over getting a petty personal vengeance.
         • adam 3.2.3.1.2

           14 October 2019 at 1:21 pm

           So let me get this right – rather than be a journalist and publish leaks like they always have – they should have not said anything – so h.r.c got elected?

           Or was the rest of us knowing about TPP and our own government spying on us irrelevant?

           Because I'm confused – you seem to be adding a layer of motivation on top of what wikileaks already did as standard practice – you know, holding the powerful to account.
           • phillip ure 3.2.3.1.2.1

             14 October 2019 at 2:09 pm

             his hatred of the clintons is well-documented..

             and everything he did he did to help trump..

             so yes..there likely was 'motivation' in his/those actions..
   • Rosemary McDonald 3.3

     12 October 2019 at 9:44 am

     "….the sparring matches with the usual sportsmen on TS."

     But, but! Watching the willy-wagging is sooo much fun!

     The finger-tapping cliche brigade.
4. OnceWasTim 4

   12 October 2019 at 9:44 am

   Interesting to watch Ole Rog's body language on The Nation (as I write).

   Still a complete ideologue, not at all interested in hearing an alternative view (that of St John) – except possibly once. He even came equipped with a couple of pages of a crib sheet

   If we are to put any credence on S’Rog’s views, we’d all end up living in a caged pig farm.
   • Cinny 4.1

     12 October 2019 at 9:59 am

     I watched the same and was left wondering if ole rog was all there. Did you notice he was slurring?
     • OnceWasTim 4.1.1

       12 October 2019 at 10:10 am

       He's been slurring for quite a while @ Cinny. Quite concerning I guess for his disciples. It must be a real worry for them – should they be "efficient and effective" and shove him on Dancing With The Stars, or be kind and transformational and book him into a Rymancare facility with CLV providing the pastoral care
       • Cinny 4.1.1.1

         12 October 2019 at 10:44 am

         The Nation must have been hard pressed finding people to interview today.

         Maybe seymour could teach him some moves and rog could take to the floor and find out what it feels like to live a bit 🙂
   • weka 4.2

     12 October 2019 at 10:54 am

     why was he on the Nation?
     • Sacha 4.2.1

       12 October 2019 at 11:19 am

       Indeed. Whose interests does that serve?
     • OnceWasTim 4.2.2

       12 October 2019 at 11:31 am

       I guess for the same reason John Key has been popping up as a rent-a-voice on MSM over the past week or so.

       (I should have stuck with my idol Kim on that Red Radio)
       • Dukeofurl 4.2.2.1

         12 October 2019 at 12:20 pm

         The Newshub story is wrong

         "Accrual accounting was adopted by the Government in the 1980s during Sir Roger's stint as Finance Minister in the Fourth Labour Government. "

         Complete fantasy , it didnt happen for NZ till early 1990s

         As this academic paper from Victoria Uni lays out

         "An outcome of this reform was a general move to accrual based financial statements with New Zealand being the first country to provide national financial statements on an accrual basis in 1992."
         • mikesh 4.2.2.1.1

           12 October 2019 at 1:34 pm

           ["Accrual accounting was adopted by the Government in the 1980s during Sir Roger's stint as Finance Minister in the Fourth Labour Government. "

           Complete fantasy , it didnt happen for NZ till early 1990s]

           I think accrual accounting was adopted by the 4th Labour government in the 1980s, even if the the first set of government accounts prepared on that basis didn't appear until 1992. So Sir Roger's comment was not entirely "fantasy".
     • Psycho Milt 4.2.3

       12 October 2019 at 11:42 am

       Judging by this post from Chris Trotter, the old codger's planning a comeback:

       …here was Sir Roger Douglas on the other end of the line, inviting me to assess his latest ideas for improving New Zealand – kanohi ki te kanohi – over coffee.

       It is not my place to summarise or in any other way represent those ideas, Sir Roger has his own plans for that. Suffice to say that they extend and elaborate upon ideas foregrounded in his books Towards Prosperity and Unfinished Business.

       Natch, Trotter was most impressed.
       • weka 4.2.3.1

         12 October 2019 at 12:17 pm

         jfc, on both counts.
       • Sacha 4.2.3.2

         12 October 2019 at 12:28 pm

         The right will all be booking in cosy chats with Colonel Trotter now that he's more comfortable on their side of things. Frozen peaches for all.
         • weka 4.2.3.2.1

           12 October 2019 at 12:52 pm

           frozen peaches?
           • Psycho Milt 4.2.3.2.1.1

             12 October 2019 at 1:30 pm

             People on the left who don't value freedom of speech tend to refer to it as "freeze peach."
             • arkie …

               12 October 2019 at 2:17 pm

               That's a classic "straw man" fallacy, with a bit of "false dichotomy" thrown in.
               • Psycho Milt …

                 12 October 2019 at 2:43 pm

                 I did over-generalise, in that there will be people on the left who don't value freedom of speech and don't refer to it as "freeze peach." I don't think it's a straw man, though – after all, who would come up with a term of ridicule for something they value?
                 • arkie …

                   12 October 2019 at 2:58 pm

                   who would come up with a term of ridicule for something they value?

                   People who give nicknames?

                   The straw man is that you characterise people who disagree with your interpretation of what is 'free speech' as "people who do not value freedom of speech".
                 • Sacha …

                   12 October 2019 at 2:58 pm

                   Some of us value balanced public speech. Those who say 'free' often seem to be backing only hateful varieties that harm social groups other than their own. They can merrily freeze their little fruits in their own circles as far as I'm concerned.
                   • Stuart Munro. …

                     12 October 2019 at 4:09 pm

                     "Free speech" has been used to advance some rather diverse agendas, from issuing pornography to political donations. It might be better to narrow rather than broaden free speech definitions so that issues pretending to the title are obliged to make their arguments on their merits.
                   • Incognito []

                     12 October 2019 at 8:35 pm

                     Not sure what you are suggesting but IMO putting restrictions on what defines as “free speech” is oxymoronic. I think it should be as open and broad as possible.

                     Only if the content invites people toward violence or uncivil behaviour should speech be banned.

                     https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/books/116443386/the-complicated-issue-of-hate
       • Incognito 4.2.3.3

         12 October 2019 at 12:42 pm

         Did Douglas want an assessment or an endorsement from Trotter?
5. Dukeofurl 5

   12 October 2019 at 9:46 am

   Nobel Peace Prize Winner announced

   Prime Minister of Ethiopia, Abiy Ahmed Ali, was awarded the prize for making peace with the country's bitter foe, and former province, Eritrea.

   Only one side won the prize because "Eritrea’s Isaias leads one of the most repressive military dictatorships in the world; his government has been compared to North Korea and accused of possible crimes against humanity."
6. Cinny 6

   12 October 2019 at 10:03 am

   Want to engage more people in the voting process? Then don't ban the electoral commission from going to speak to high schools. JS

   Looking forward to the electoral commission talking to our high school students after three years of being prevented from doing so. And the principal thought no one would notice……. caught out big time.
   • weka 6.1

     12 October 2019 at 10:07 am

     is that just your high school?
     • Cinny 6.1.1

       12 October 2019 at 10:40 am

       Yes, pretty sure the other schools in our region are ok with the electoral commission visiting. But it did make me think if any other NZ high schools were doing the same, which in my opinion should be illegal.

       I feel it's really important for our youth to pre enroll at 17, and high school is the best place to capture that and make it happen, that way when they turn 18 they are already sorted.
       • Sacha 6.1.1.1

         12 October 2019 at 11:20 am

         One of the best arguments for reducing the voting age to 16 is being able to use schools as a vehicle for engagement.
         • weka 6.1.1.1.1

           12 October 2019 at 12:03 pm

           ok that's the first argument for lowering the age that's made sense to me.
           • Sacha 6.1.1.1.1.1

             12 October 2019 at 12:21 pm

             Get em young. 🙂
             • weka …

               12 October 2019 at 12:55 pm

               I'd be much more in favour of lowering the age if advocates were first pressing for civics to be taught comprehensively in primary, secondary and tertiary schools.
               • Incognito …

                 12 October 2019 at 12:59 pm

                 I’d argue that they cannot teach civics comprehensively without teaching history comprehensively.
                 • weka …

                   12 October 2019 at 1:06 pm

                   Nice, I was just thinking that (esp re the recent debate about teaching NZ history).
               • Sacha …

                 12 October 2019 at 2:40 pm

                 I've heard advocates asking for exactly that – use the resources of our schools to involve young people in the community's civic life.
       • Dukeofurl 6.1.1.2

         12 October 2019 at 5:49 pm

         Heres the High Schools program

         https://elections.nz/your-community/teaching-voting-at-schools

         Plus these Teaching Units

         Votes for Women – New Zealand Curriculum level 4

         Tūranga Mua, Tūranga Tika – Te Marautanga o Aotearoa level 5

         Be Heard – New Zealand Curriculum level 5

         Have Your Say – New Zealand Curriculum levels 3 and 4
         • Cinny 6.1.1.2.1

           13 October 2019 at 10:30 am

           Cheers for the links Duke. That was another thing that bugged me, all the resources and info are in place, making it easy for schools to work with the electoral commission, so why would any school prevent their students from such knowledge.

           If our local high school doesn't educate the students or engage with the electoral commission for the coming general election, I might have to contact the press and the principal can explain to the public what his issue is.
7. millsy 7

   12 October 2019 at 10:32 am

   Good luck to those on the left, looking to win a council seat or 3 today, all around the country. Hopefully some Rotarian ass will be kicked today.

   No one seems to be marking the 30th anniversary of the abolishment of the counties and boroughs in this country. Which is sad.

   Another anniversary that past 2 weeks ago is the Tomorrow's Schools reforms.
   • Anne 7.1

     12 October 2019 at 10:57 am

     @ millsy

     My comment at 8 was supposed to be a reply to yours @ 7. Not hitting 'reply' is getting to be a habit. 🙁
   • gsays 7.2

     12 October 2019 at 12:48 pm

     Yep, one of my voting criteria was if I recognised their name from hoardings I would not vote for them.

     The logic is that to have lots of hoardings= lots of money. The last thing I want from my representatives is for them to be wealthy.
8. Anne 8

   12 October 2019 at 10:41 am

   I fear that overall the result for the left is not going to be good. I base this on the fact it looks like it's going to be one of the lowest voter turn-outs ever and that usually counts against left-leaning candidates.

   Maybe it's not such an important factor in local body elections, but coupled with the over abundance of candidates nation-wide it is likely to put a lot of people off voting.

   Phil Goff should make it in Auckland but after that……
   • Sacha 8.1

     12 October 2019 at 11:24 am

     Goff is not really 'left' – but then that role will always need to connect across the whole spectrum, like Len Brown also did. The Mayor of Auckland will always be seen at both food kitchens and shiny corporate soirees.
     • Anne 8.1.1

       12 October 2019 at 12:19 pm

       He was well to the left in his younger days but he gravitated to the centre as he grew older. Even so, he still refers to some people as Comrade So and So. Perhaps that was a family trait dating back to childhood. Iirc, his parents and grandparents were staunch Labour.
       • Sacha 8.1.1.1

         12 October 2019 at 12:23 pm

         He didn't seem especially left anymore during the 4th Lab govt. Twenty years earlier before he had any power, sure.
         • Anne 8.1.1.1.1

           12 October 2019 at 4:55 pm

           I first met him in the early 1970s. He was into Mickey Savage and co. then. In the 1980s he flirted with the Rogernomes. By the 1990s he was pulling back from them and now he sits on the centre-left of the spectrum.

           Btw, put him in a room full of Labour people and you'd think he was back in his youth. It's where his political heart still lies.
9. Peter 9

   12 October 2019 at 10:57 am

   Although sports is anathema to some it occasionally provides opportunities for reflecting on the 'real' world, the way things are done and values.

   The way things are, the value of money is significantly more important than other values.

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12275814
10. Anne 10

    12 October 2019 at 10:59 am

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/400820/trump-impeachment-ambassador-says-she-was-ousted-over-false-claims

    Looks like her crime was… she had been appointed by Obama.
    • Andre 10.1

      12 October 2019 at 11:23 am

      It's a wonder she lasted as long as she did.
      • Macro 10.1.1

        12 October 2019 at 12:51 pm

        It certainly is – but then when she got in the way of the Orange Grabbem Führer's nefarious plans for the 1000 year Reich she had to go.

        Meanwhile, just in, is this report that the it wasn't just Bullsh*tter In Chief who was solely responsible..

        Trump Diplomats Drafted An Official Statement For Ukraine To Announce Investigation Of Biden

        In more evidence that Donald Trump was trying to use his position to interfere in the 2020 presidential election, The New York Times reports that senior diplomats in the administration had pushed Ukraine to commit – on paper – to investigations into the president’s political rivals.

        According to the report, “Two of President Trump’s top envoys to Ukraine drafted a statement for the country’s new president in August that would have committed Ukraine to pursuing investigations sought by Mr. Trump into his political rivals, three people briefed on the effort said.”

        The report notes that Trump was seeking to “bend American foreign policy to [his] political agenda” by obsessively pushing Ukraine to investigate Hunter Biden and Hillary Clinton.

        More from the report:

        The drafting of the statement marks new evidence of how Mr. Trump’s fixation with Ukraine began driving senior diplomats to bend American foreign policy to the president’s political agenda in the weeks after the July 25 call between the two leaders.

        The statement was drafted by Gordon D. Sondland, the United States ambassador to the European Union, and Kurt D. Volker, then the State Department’s envoy to Ukraine, according to the three people who have been briefed on it.

        …

        The statement was written with the awareness of a top aide to the Ukrainian president, as well as Rudolph W. Giuliani, Mr. Trump’s personal lawyer and the de facto leader of a shadow campaign to push the Ukrainians to press ahead with investigations that could be of political benefit to Mr. Trump, according to one of the people briefed on it.

        The statement would have committed Ukraine to investigating the energy company Burisma, which had employed Hunter Biden, the younger son of former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. And it would have called for the Ukrainian government to look into what Mr. Trump and his allies believe was interference by Ukrainians in the 2016 election in the United States to benefit Hillary Clinton.

        But wait! There's more!

        The entire Trump administration was in on the Ukraine scheme

        This scheme to extort a foreign power into handing over dirt on a political opponent is not one of those instances in which Trump went off on his own and did something impeachable.

        Instead, this operation appears to be administration-wide – from Donald Trump and Mike Pence to William Barr and Mike Pompeo. Thanks to The New York Times report on Thursday, we now know that senior diplomats on Trump’s team were in on it as well.

        This is no longer about one phone call Donald Trump had with the president of Ukraine, or even about one whistleblower complaint that set the political world on fire.

        This is about a president of the United States who is using all the powers of the American government and foreign policy apparatus for nefarious purposes – and a growing number of officials inside the administration were accomplices in his criminal efforts.

        https://www.politicususa.com/2019/10/03/trump-diplomats-drafted-official-statement-ukraine-investigation-biden.html
        • Macro 10.1.1.1

          12 October 2019 at 1:03 pm

          
          • Macro 10.1.1.1.1

            12 October 2019 at 1:11 pm

            Image reads

            "Introducing the new Trump Super Bus with room under it for Everybody!"
11. JohnSelway 11

    12 October 2019 at 11:45 am

    Wow.
    So for shit's and giggle's went to look at former contributor to The Standard, Colonial Viper (or Tat Loo as he is also known), Twitter feed and it is clear the guy has gone completely around the bend. Anti-Feminism, Global Warning denying, Trump supporter and Woo based 'medicine' promoter.

    Have a look if you feel like multiple face-palming…
    • Incognito 11.1

      12 October 2019 at 11:47 am

      No thanks.
    • Andre 11.2

      12 October 2019 at 12:13 pm

      How is that different to when he was active here?
      • JohnSelway 11.2.1

        12 October 2019 at 12:58 pm

        He seems much more virulent now. And I don't recall him being a AGW denier before
        • Macro 11.2.1.1

          12 October 2019 at 1:16 pm

          True – it is a sad case to behold. I think it is one of those instances where someone is completing the circle – going hard left, and then merging into the hard right.
          • Sacha 11.2.1.1.1

            12 October 2019 at 8:39 pm

            just as Act sprang from Labour..
      • KJT 11.2.2

        12 October 2019 at 6:24 pm

        Very different to when he was first on the Standard.
    • mauī 11.3

      12 October 2019 at 8:36 pm

      Still he didn't peddle mindless Russia and Trump conspiracies, or repeat the establishment narrative. Probably what made him quite a popular commentator in some quarters.
12. John Clover 12

    12 October 2019 at 11:47 am

    Some time ago I commented that trade unions, and the like, have been too successful in pushing for more money for us normals. I didn't bookmark it so I could see what response I got if any but today listening the 9-Noon programme on dogs the thought struck me that the way we all want more money is one of the problems with today's world …. My wife who now lives in a pensioners' flat would like a dog but Council says NO …. but the reason why my wife doesn't have cat [Council permitted] is as a responsible person the possible likelihood of vet bills puts her off as she lives on a pension. I think this is rather sad.
    • OnceWasTim 12.1

      12 October 2019 at 12:18 pm

      There's a mangy old stray cat hanging around Flowers Street @ John looking for a home.

      It's guaranteed to have private insurance to pay the vet's bills
13. joe90 13

    12 October 2019 at 12:40 pm

    Lindsey Graham thought he was talking to Turkey's defence minister. He says the Kurds are a big problem and a threat to Turkey and says Trump wants to be helpful to Erdogan's money launderer and Giuliani client Reza Zarrab.

    Graham then raised an issue that’s been top of mind for Erdogan for years—the U.S. case involving Zarrab, who was convicted in 2018 and sentenced to 32 months in prison stemming partly from bribes he paid to Turkish bank officers.

    “And this case involving the Turkish bank, he’s very sensitive to that,” Graham said of Trump. “The president wants to be helpful, within the limits of his power.”

    […]

    Zarrab also had ties to the Turkish government, according to a memo written in 2016 by former U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara, and was “engaged in a massive bribery scheme… paying cabinet-level [Turkish] governmental officials and high-level bank officers tens of millions of Euro and U.S. dollars” to facilitate his transactions.

    Erdogan, wary of corruption being revealed in open court, fiercely lobbied high-level Obama administration officials for Zarrab's release after his 2016 arrest, the Washington Post reported at the time. At one point he even asked Vice President Joe Biden to have Bharara fired. Erdogan also sent his justice minister at the time to meet with then-Attorney General Loretta E. Lynch and argue that the case was "based on no evidence."

    https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/10/lindsey-graham-trump-hoax-call-043991
14. joe90 14

    12 October 2019 at 12:54 pm

    He's trying to get this woman killed.

    https://twitter.com/MiriamElder/status/1182469068948987904
    • weka 14.1

      12 October 2019 at 1:09 pm

      Anything is better than Clinton though right?
      • Macro 14.1.1

        12 October 2019 at 1:28 pm

        You have a sarc tag with that? 🙂

        The Hater Supremo is determined to have blood on his tiny hands before he is removed.

        Fortunately the crowds are growing smaller and the mood of the nation is turning against him; and he knows that – but his only known response is to up the vitriol, hatred, and raving to new levels of unbalanced, dangerous, mindlessness cant.
      • Siobhan 14.1.2

        12 October 2019 at 2:39 pm

        Monica Lewinsky was bombarded with threats of rape and death, “Overnight, I went from being a completely private person to being a publicly humiliated one worldwide,”…luckily she had the sistership #metoo support of Hilary Clinton….

        "In a CBS interview on Sunday, correspondent Tony Dokoupil asked Clinton if she thought her husband should have resigned after his affair with Lewinsky, then a White House intern, became public.

        “Absolutely not,” Clinton said.

        Clinton also said the relationship wasn’t an abuse of power on the former president’s part. Lewinsky was “an adult,” she said, before changing the subject to talk about sexual harassment and assault allegations against President Donald Trump."

        Trump is an abomination..Hillary is 'better'…better was never, and will never be good enough.

        
        • Andre 14.1.2.1

          12 October 2019 at 6:27 pm

          … better was never, and will never be good enough.

          So why should a politician even try for the support of anyone with an attitude like that, since they will never be good enough? If you're looking for political wins, it's far better trying to get the support of people that are persuadable realists, rather than the unattainable perfectionists.
      • phillip ure 14.1.3

        12 October 2019 at 5:46 pm

        how many countries do you think clinton would have bombed/invaded by now..?
15. joe90 15

    12 October 2019 at 2:32 pm

    70,000 displaced and counting..

    https://news.yahoo.com/syria-kurds-battle-turkish-invasion-104622127.html
16. joe90 16

    12 October 2019 at 3:48 pm

    Rudy, meet bus.

    https://twitter.com/stevennelson10/status/1182760003423424512

    https://www.rawstory.com/2019/10/i-smell-a-wiretap-ex-fbi-official-suspects-the-feds-have-tapes-of-rudy-giuliani/
    • marty mars 16.1

      12 October 2019 at 6:42 pm

      lol poor wee rudy – he will make the turnip turd tornado pay for the insult I'm sure – lol burger on rye coming up
    • Macro 16.2

      12 October 2019 at 6:49 pm

      And not before time – Rudy is said to be under investigation for Ukraine work.

      https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/11/us/politics/rudy-giuliani-investigation.html

      WASHINGTON — Federal prosecutors in Manhattan are investigating whether President Trump’s personal lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani broke lobbying laws in his dealings in Ukraine, according to two people familiar with the inquiry.

      The investigators are examining Mr. Giuliani’s efforts to undermine the American ambassador to Ukraine, Marie L. Yovanovitch, one of the people said. She was recalled in the springas part of Mr. Trump’s broader campaign to pressure Ukraine into helping his political prospects.

      The investigation into Mr. Giuliani is tied to the case against two of his associates who were arrested this week on campaign finance-related charges, the people familiar with the inquiry said. The associates were charged with funneling illegal contributions to a congressman whose help they sought in removing Ms. Yovanovitch.
      • joe90 16.2.1

        12 October 2019 at 8:47 pm

        Imagine the shit fight when they start looking into the recipients of all that NRA cash.

        At least 14 Republican candidates and groups directly received a total of $675,500 in campaign contributions last year from Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman, the Soviet-born Florida businessmen indicted this week on campaign-finance violations.

        Federal prosecutors in Manhattan say six of their donations involved either a shell company used to hide the men’s identities or foreign money meant to curry favor with U.S. politicians. The pair made numerous contributions between February and July, many of them to umbrella political groups that then parceled out money to dozens of GOP politicians, a Wall Street Journal review of state fundraising and Federal Election Commission records found.

        http://archive.li/rg14C
        • Macro 16.2.1.1

          12 October 2019 at 9:04 pm

          hehehe

          And not before time – the NRA is under serious threat.

          A new Senate report is the latest threat to NRA’s tax-exempt status — and maybe its survival

          Leaders of the National Rifle Association (NRA) traveled to Moscow using NRA funds, according to a new Senate report, raising the question of whether the organization broke laws governing nonprofit spending. If the association did in fact break those laws, it could lose its tax-exempt status — and according to a former IRS official, without its tax-exempt status the NRA could be forced to shut down.

          The report, which was compiled by Democrats on the Senate Finance Committee and released on Friday, investigates the relationship between NRA leadership and Russian nationals with Kremlin ties. Those nationals include Maria Butina, a 30-year-old Russian who was convicted last year of conspiring to act as a foreign agent. As Vox’s Andrew Prokop explained, her alleged goal was to “try to influence the Republican Party to be friendlier to Russia, by way of the NRA.”

          Part of that relationship involved a 2015 trip to Russia during which Butina promised to introduce top NRA executives to powerful officials, and during which those executives were told they would be given opportunities to advance personal business interests.

          The problem — aside from the fact that the NRA is accused of willingly establishing relationships with Russian nationals with close ties with the Kremlin — is that tax-exempt nonprofits aren’t allowed to use their funds for personal gain, as NPR has reported.

          “This was an official trip undertaken so NRA insiders could get rich — a clear violation of the principle that tax-exempt resources should not be used for personal benefit,” Sen. Ron Wyden of Oregon, the top Democrat on the Senate Finance Committee, said in a statement to CNN.

          https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/9/28/20888815/nra-russia-senate-report-tax-exempt-investigation-irs-new-york-dc-james-attorney-general
17. Frankie and Benjie 17

    12 October 2019 at 3:55 pm

    I found this video from MSNBC very interesting with the links being drawn to billionaire Firtash under house arrest in Vienna and "Giuliani Role In Trump Ukraine Scheme".

    
    
    
18. Stuart Munro. 18

    12 October 2019 at 4:23 pm

    Trump is reinforcing Saudi, trying to prop up the balance of power he tilted the other way with decisions in Syria. It's looking likely to be a long lesson in why empires use local auxiliaries – which Trump isn't.
    • joe90 18.1

      12 October 2019 at 7:08 pm

      The US military is Blackwater gone big.

      https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1182769613416882176
      • Stuart Munro. 18.1.1

        12 October 2019 at 7:21 pm

        You may be right – though there are a bunch of people who are ashamed of it.

        I'm expecting Saudi are in for a rough ride as foreign backed Yemeni forces give them an insurgency on steroids that an unsupported minority could not. Hard though it may be to sympathize with princes who cut people up to fit them in cake boxes, the consequences of a Saudi collapse would hit our little oil dependent nation pretty hard. Saudi has phosphate too.
19. Andre 19

    12 October 2019 at 5:48 pm

    Oh dear. Now even Tulsi is against pulling out US troops to leave the Kurds to get slaughtered by the Turks. There goes her cred with the self-styled "anti-war" delusionals.

    https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/465431-gabbard-rips-trumps-syria-decision-kurds-are-now-paying-the-price
20. marty mars 20

    12 October 2019 at 6:01 pm

    Yay for good people

    US congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez warned that tackling the climate crisis will involve making dramatic economic changes in a passionate closing speech at the C40 World Mayors summit in Copenhagen on Friday…

    …“Our current logic created this mess and operating in the same way will not get us out.”

    This uncompromising message won her a powerful round of applause. But it was when she came to the impact climate change had had on her own life, and on her family in Puerto Rico, that she became emotional.

    “I speak to you as a human being, a woman whose dreams of motherhood now taste bittersweet because of what I know about our children’s future,” she said, her voice breaking as if she was struggling to hold back tears.

    “That our actions are responsible for bringing their most dire possibilities into focus.”

    From the moment she began speaking, the main hall at the summit became completely still, and when she finished, the ovation she received far exceeded that received by the veteran climate campaigner and former vice-president Al Gore, Denmark’s prime minister, Mette Frederiksen; or the UN secretary general, António Guterres.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/oct/11/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-c40-world-mayors-summit-climate-crisis
21. joe90 21

    12 October 2019 at 6:12 pm

    Rudy made him do it.

    https://twitter.com/AriMelber/status/1182811886364037120

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/10/10/1891669/-Look-at-all-these-photos-with-those-two-alleged-criminals-Trump-doesn-t-even-know?
    • Macro 21.1

      12 October 2019 at 7:03 pm

      Trump denies knowing Giuliani's arrested associates who bragged about their close relationship with the White House.

      Of course he doesn't know them! He has never even met them. He is PERFECTLY INNOCENT. It was a PERFECT phone call as well! Everything he does is perfect, and he has a perfect memory – it is completely blank.
      • joe90 21.1.1

        12 October 2019 at 7:12 pm

        I'm sure someone has the videos.

        https://twitter.com/AdamParkhomenko/status/1182441506600374272
      • joe90 21.1.2

        12 October 2019 at 9:02 pm

        Lots of interesting people tRump doesn't know.

        Donald Trump tried to distance himself from the latest scandal that threatens his presidency on Thursday by saying he didn’t know either of the foreign-born Rudy Giuliani associates that his own Justice Department had just indicted for alleged campaign finance violations.

        But that’s not what one of the men said three years ago — while attending Trump’s

        In fact, Lev Parnas described himself to a foreign correspondent at the cash-bar event in midtown Manhattan as a friend of the president-elect who didn’t live far from his South Florida winter home.

        https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/11/lev-parnas-giuliani-trump-private-party-044698
      • phillip ure 21.1.3

        13 October 2019 at 6:50 am

        heh..!

        in happier pre-arrests days/times..
    • Macro 21.2

      12 October 2019 at 7:21 pm

      But! But! But! RIck Perry made him do it!

      Scoop: Trump pins Ukraine call on Energy Secretary Rick Perry

      President Trump told House Republicans that he made his now infamous phone call to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky at the urging of Energy Secretary Rick Perry — a call Trump claimed he didn’t even want to make.

      Behind the scenes: Trump made these comments during a conference call with House members on Friday, according to 3 sources on the call.

      • Per the sources, Trump rattled off the same things he has been saying publicly — that his call with Zelensky was "perfect"and he did nothing wrong.
      • But he then threw Perry into the mix and said something to the effect of: "Not a lot of people know this but, I didn't even want to make the call. The only reason I made the call was because Rick asked me to. Something about an LNG [liquefied natural gas] plant," one source said, recalling the president's comments. 2 other sources confirmed the first source's recollection.

      https://www.axios.com/trump-blamed-rick-perry-call-ukraine-zelensky-8178447a-0374-4ac6-b321-a9454b0565d4.html

      Guess his Perfect Memory has deleted that data.
22. joe90 22

    12 October 2019 at 6:51 pm

    Does Nige know what an FTA is?

    https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1182554541591552000
23. joe90 23

    12 October 2019 at 7:31 pm

    How the violent leftists narrative is a curtain-raiser to right-wing violence.

    https://twitter.com/DavidNeiwert/status/1182771363469090816

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1182771363469090816.html
    • joe90 23.1

      12 October 2019 at 8:28 pm

      Argentinian historian on how fascism is making a comeback under Bolsonaro and Trump.

      Despite the growing allegations about his misconduct, President Trump remains idolized by many of his supporters. His campaign rallies feature fans whose devotion is unwavering. When Trump insulted a supporter he mistook for a protester for being overweight, for example, the supporter later said he was not insulted: “Everything’s good. I love the guy.” Trump counts among his fans not only voters but also fellow world leaders. Jair Bolsonaro, the Brazilian president, also explicitly told Trump “I love you” when they met at the United Nations.

      These expressions of love should be concerning. They share features with the unconditional form of love typical of political cults that has often manifested in dangerous ways.

      Historically, idolizing the “leader” is a key dimension of fascism. In the 1930s and 1940s, different fascist leaders inspired cults of personality, which came in different colors across the globe. In China, supporters of Chiang Kai-shek wore blue shirts, while Brazilian supporters of Plínio Salgado wore integralista green shirts. Argentina’s dictator José F. Uriburu, Romania’s Corneliu Codreanu and Spain’s Francisco Franco similarly inspired loyal followings. Supporters of fascism fervently believed in the heroic, even Godlike nature of their leaders. Joseph Goebbels, the infamous Nazi propaganda minister, wrote in his diaries about his feelings for Adolf Hitler: “I love him … I bow to the greater man, to the political genius.” Such devotion ultimately allowed leaders to insulate themselves from criticism and accountability.

      http://archive.li/CmDgs
24. joe90 24

    12 October 2019 at 9:50 pm

    Skills.

    https://twitter.com/taniatare/status/1182696005814214658
25. greywarshark 25

    12 October 2019 at 11:41 pm

    Brexit: EU and UK agree to 'intensify' talks

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-50016853

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