Open mike 12/11/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, November 12th, 2019 - 73 comments
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For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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73 comments on “Open mike 12/11/2019 ”

  1. A 2

    "Boomers will live a long time. I think the life expectancy at 65 is now 89 years. So they will consume a lot of wealth to fund their retirement. There may be less left than their children may want."

    The level of deprivation among severely disabled in the benefit system is so great that they may not be living until retirement age. They should at least have parity in terms of the amount they receive so they too can live.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/117339974/policies-hardcoded-differences-between-baby-boomers-and-younger-generations-researcher-says

    • Rosemary McDonald 2.1

      Indeed, A.

      Thinking that The Kindness would be inclusive of non ACC severely disabled was foolish.

      We have learned.

    • Dukeofurl 2.2

      "they should at least have parity in terms of the amount they receive so they too can live. "

      No one has parity of amount in the existing super system. Women live longer than men .Those still working indeed receive a bonus on top of their income.

      For a person at 65 now the median years left is 21.7 yrs female and 19.6 males.

      All that possibly can be offered is 'early retirement' before 65 not parity of amount.

  2. millsy 3

    According to an NZ Herald article from yesterday that is behind their paywall (of course it is!), the government is ditching the education hub proposal.

    This is less a backdown than a capitulation to the richest schools in the country, such as Auckland Grammar, etc, who are benefiting the most from the Tomorrow's School's setup.

    • Sanctuary 3.1

      Totally agree. Labour is just so gutless, they shit themselves everytime the middle class cock an eyebrow at them.

      • tc 3.1.1

        +100 that and NZF have made this a disappointing term.

        Nash,mallard, twyford, Hipkins,robertson, Jones etc blah blah on unchecked.

    • ianmac 3.2

      Yes they are ditching the hub but likely replacing it with a system to assist the failing schools in other ways. One of the reasons for the hub had been to assist the 20% of failures.

      Remember how the previous Government bulldozed changes without consultation? This time consultation has resulted in modification. Can't have it both ways.

    • It sounded like another complicated and expensive layer of bureaucracy to me.

    • Ad 3.4

      After all the grief they got from the teachers' and principals' unions, it just wasn't worth it.

      I just haven't see a part of the public service this government has been capable of reforming.

      No justice reforms

      No energy reforms

      No education reforms

      No health reforms (other than cancer)

      No social welfare reforms

      No tertiary education reforms

      No local government reforms

      No competition reforms

      No tax reforms

      Some housing reforms.

      Limited transport reforms.

      What they will end up with at the end of the term is:

      We spent more money where it was needed.

      Ta-daaa!

      • Sacha 3.4.1

        No health reforms

        Haven't tried yet while the very detailed review process continues. About to announce some moves this week apparently.

        The rest of your list ignores what has been done – or just tells us how good your eyesight is.

        • Ad 3.4.1.1

          Look you can recite the entire Ardern achievements video if you like. Go ahead and form a little glee club if a bit of a critique is too snowflakey for you.

          None of the achievements she states refer to the actual benchmarks they legislated that they would be held against.

          They are ok at redistributing tax money.

          They are just shit at structural or public sector reform.

          • Sacha 3.4.1.1.1

            Exaggerating undercuts your argument. The word 'No' is not your friend.

          • Dukeofurl 3.4.1.1.2

            Education reforms …tadaaa

            Tertiary Education reforms…tadaaa

            Local Government/Water supply …..tadaaa

            Other reforms were advanced but blocked by coalition partners, Ad still lives in a pre 1996 world

            • Ad 3.4.1.1.2.1

              The tertiary polytech one is a proposal.

              The education one from today is a tinker that kills one reform and proposes an even milder one.

              Nothing has happened in fresh water other than some standards.

          • OnceWasTim 3.4.1.1.3

            Well I might agree on one thing:

            "They are just shit at xxxxxxxxxx xx public sector reform."

            except that I think they've only just worked out where most of the bullshit has been emanating from.

            Maarten Wevers just suprised me I have to say, but then I 'spose after 37 years that wasn't too surprising. "No surprises" in fact.

            One thing to tell a Minister of a politician's actions which could potentially become a big issue. The need to actually name the politician (especially given past record) quite another

          • millsy 3.4.1.1.4

            "They are just shit at structural or public sector reform".

            We have a virtual public sector. Everything is outsourced. Even property.

            That is why Jacinda's government cannot reform it.

  3. gsays 4

    Big thanks to Robert for putting this link up on Daily Review last night.

    Interesting information. He talks about the impacts of industrial agriculture on soils.

    It bears reposting.

    https://youtu.be/L68ZHYzeZoI

    • Dukeofurl 6.1

      Arent the Greens such a movement. Yes they broke away from the Alliance , but that was as it name suggests a group of pre -existing parties and they still had an 'identity' within the Alliance

      • weka 6.1.1

        true. The Greens predate the Alliance, and it could be argued that they arose out of a movement from the old Values Party and environmental groups.

        • Dukeofurl 6.1.1.1

          yes. I think voters look for authenticity in movements.

          I just found out the other day Apirana Ngata and others founded the Young Maori Party at the turn of the century. So creating political partys isnt new. Clearly maori political aspirations existed as a movement too.

          It still exists in a different form as the YMP Sports club on the East Coast

    • McFlock 6.2

      I suspect most new parties think they're the groundswell of a popular movement – TOP, the various Density Church parties, etc.

      If Morgan thought his ideas didn't have popular support, he wouldn't have been such a dick when he lost.

      • weka 6.2.1

        I think that proves my (unspoken) point. TOP thought they had popular support, rather than building actual popular support via a movement. Parachute parties.

        Tava says he wants 10% of the vote next year. Why?

        • McFlock 6.2.1.1

          Not so sure about that with TOP. Yes, it was mostly Morgan's money, but the entire UBI/flat tax/social justice model had been building popularity separately to TOP.

          As opposed to Conservatives, which AFAIK had no new or significant policies other than Craig's chequebook.

          Even the Density crowd could be assured of leveraging some support from existing organisations.

          Tav's dreaming about 10% – if there's any basis to it, it would probably a guess as to what the Greens' base vote would be and the tory assumption that they'll just take most of the Greens' vote. But more to the point, I'm not sure there is a clearly delineated "blue/green" bloc, within or outside the Greens. It's a party being built in the belief that it will create such a movement, rather than leverage existing divisions.

          Yes, there are conservatives who fancy themselves as environmentalists, but as someone said recently (and I forget who) "the only place blue-greens exist is on a colour palette"

          • Sacha 6.2.1.1.1

            the only place blue-greens exist

            algae

          • weka 6.2.1.1.2

            "Yes, it was mostly Morgan's money, but the entire UBI/flat tax/social justice model had been building popularity separately to TOP."

            True, but that's not what TOP or Morgan was promoting. His pre-TOP think tank produced a model that was economic not socially just. His TOP policy was a mess. I don't see a lot of movement buy in for what he was suggesting before he formed TOP, more that there was interest from different parts of society (which is a different thing). Movement to me would be like SS4C, where you have a reasonably coherent set of groups with similar aims and working together. If there was one thing that characterised TOP it was that we were supposed to follow the leader (of TOP not of any movement).

            • McFlock 6.2.1.1.2.1

              SS4C?

              • weka

                School Strike for Climate.

                Thinking of recent movements that have the potential to become party political.

                • McFlock

                  gotcha.

                  My thinking is that there's a wide range in the size of movements, and that TOP (not just Morgan) did expect to get the support of a lot of the folks who were vocal about a UBI. And Density have managed to get thousands in the streets before now, so I think they think there might be a movement there.

                  But I don't think Tava's crowd have a genuine belief that there is such a movement in NZ – I think it's more a general punt that they might get somewhere, or at least and ACT-style sinecure/rotten seat for their personal income.

                  I don't think it's in the nature of "movements" to have a centralised decision to form a party. Political parties follow centralised hierarchies and bureaucracies, while movements are largely people who turn up if they have a moment to spare. So whle prominent people in a movement might leverage their prominance for a new political party, I suspect it's much more grey than the movement setting up the party.

                  The only exception that comes to mind is ACT coming from the "association of consumers and taxpayers", for whatever that counts as a "movement".

                  • Sacha

                    Selfish rich people have been a movement for centuries.

                  • weka

                    "and that TOP (not just Morgan) did expect to get the support of a lot of the folks who were vocal about a UBI"

                    Yes, but isn't this the problem? That rather than doing the mahi from within the movement or even alongside the movement, there is this tendency to set up the party and expect people to get on board. The IP did something similar and did get some decent engagement. But because it was based around a massive ego who then gave up when things didn't go his way, there was no movement that existed for its own sake.

                    Destiny might be different, given they have a congregation that exists whether the party exists or not.

                    • bwaghorn

                      The biggest problem was Morgan turned out to be a one election gutless wonder. If he'd kept at it he may have got to 5% this election .

                      His banging on about wanting evidence based policy is what got my interest.

                    • weka []

                      “His banging on about wanting evidence based policy is what got my interest.”

                      He talked a good game, but when it came down to it, he was really antagnostic to his policy and the evidence behind it being examined. Which was odd, because it should have been able to stand up to scrutiny if it was well based on evidence. He came in with a large bias from his personal philosophy and was unable to admit that (or maybe he just thought was right and everyone else was wrong, lol).

                    • McFlock

                      But Morgan and co did do work within and alongside the UBI movement, well before founding the party. And it certainly existed before he got involved.

                      Mana party might also be an example.

                      bwaghorn: yeah, totally. He seemed to follow the maxim “If at first you don’t succeed, throw a tantrum and fuck off” lol

                    • weka

                      "But Morgan and co did do work within and alongside the UBI movement, well before founding the party."

                      Can you give some examples?

                      "And it certainly existed before he got involved."

                      Yes, and then he went and set up a party on his own.

                      Agreed about MANA even though it was from HH leaving the Mp.

                    • arkie

                      He and Susan Guthrie wrote The Big Kahuna in 2011:

                      One day, when he was contributing to the Tax and Welfare Working Group, economist Gareth Morgan made an off-the-cuff remark that the solution to all of New Zealand's tax and welfare woes lay in abolishing the present welfare system and radically overhauling the tax system. He called this idea the big kahuna.

                      The Big Kahuna takes as its base assumption that we don't, as a society, accept that huge differences in income are acceptable and that we therefore choose to redistribute wealth. While they are generally regarded as separate, the tax and welfare systems are fundamentally both methods of doing just that – redistributing income from those who have plenty to those who don't.

                      https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22101818-the-big-kahuna

          • Gabby 6.2.1.1.3

            Does he get a bonus from his masters if he gets to 10%?

      • Sabine 6.2.2

        Morgan was a dick when he lost because simply he is a dick.

        If he weren't such a dick he would not have thrown away the baby because he lost.

        He would have known that sometimes stuff is harder then just selling some investments and making gazillions of it – tax free of course.

        btw, did morgan start to pay any taxes yet, or is he still one of these proud smart rich people who don't ever have to pay taxes at all cause loopholes for rich people, while calling workers who have to pay income tax 'paye slaves'? Cause that is what the dick called tax payers in a conversation with me.

        • weka 6.2.2.1

          Beggars belief that he the support he did on the left.

          • mikesh 6.2.2.1.1

            He did have sensible tax policies, unlike the left wing parties with their illogical and ineffectual capital gains tax. I have the impression that he attracted votes from the more thoughtful on both sides of the political spectrum.

  4. adam 7

    Ohh My….

    http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/defamation-accusations-fly-in-feud-between-alan-dershowitz-and-david-boies

    Looks like the kiddy f&^*^s may be outed this time.

    Mind you, if it looks like Dershowitz may lose – he may accidently just fall down some stairs.

    Gotta wonder who else was on that plane…

  5. ianmac 8

    "Does he/she stand by all his/her Government’s policies and statements" at QT?

    Did the Key Government get that form of questioning from the then Opposition?

    My wife says yes. I say no.

    • The Al1en 8.1

      You owe her a pint. They frequently used that question in opposition.

      • Sacha 8.1.1

        Been going for years.

      • ianmac 8.1.2

        Thanks Alien and Sacha. Gee I hate it when she is right!

        • Sacha 8.1.2.1

          Cheers to you both 🙂

        • The Al1en 8.1.2.2

          Mines a double double if you're both buying 😉

        • McFlock 8.1.2.3

          It's not really a question these days, it's more of a ritual to avoid giving notice of what their actual question is going to be.

          pros: the opposition gets to do a wee ambush

          cons: if the followups are too precise, the ministerial response can dodge giving specific answers on the grounds of the lack of warning.

          • Sacha 8.1.2.3.1

            Whole thing is getting a bit ridiculous.

            Especially if one party is using it to set up shots (for later editing) of their MPs asking questions about whatever they like, even knowing they will be dismissed or ruled out of order. Still has the right background visuals to lend some authoritah.

          • mac1 8.1.2.3.2

            Another con in its use is the chance for the Minister to choose a reply whereby he or she highlights some aspect of their work or policy. Bit like a free shot before the targeted questioning begins. Jacinda Ardern is very good at this.

            • Sacha 8.1.2.3.2.1

              Yes, using the latitude Speakers have always given in exchange for the nonsensically broad scope of the Question. Not good for accountability in any way.

              Much like patsies, whose speedy death I would welcome.

            • ianmac 8.1.2.3.2.2

              Yes Jacinda really nails the opportunity and to my mind she undermines the lame questions that follow from Bridges. And for some Opposition members they seem unable to adjust and ask the question after the answer. Inflexible?

  6. Stuart Munro. 9

    What is it about Turkey these days?

  7. AB 10

    For anyone who has had their life turned upside down by the depredations of private equity companies. Nicholas Shaxon lays out nicely the architecture of wealth extraction -which is the opposite of wealth creation, but cynically claims that mantle.

  8. Eco maori 11

    The World has a mass extinction going on at the minute. The beautiful creatures of the world are our gifts from God we are there caretaker we should have a culture where we value our mokopuna future and the past to give them a harmonious Future.

    Its logical to behave like I have described our tamariki will not be happy with there future if we carry on making a big mess of it.

    The loss of habitat is the biggest threat to jaguars in Ecuador, particularly along the coast, where more than 70% of the original forest cover has been lost. The vast majority of this destruction has taken place over the last 50 years with the expansion of the logging and agriculture industries, including coffee, cacao, palm oil and bananas, one of the country’s largest agriculture exports.

    The coastal jaguar population has been declared critically endangered by the International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN). Galo Zapata-Ríos, science director at the Wildlife Conservation Society Ecuador, says only a few remain in one small area on the coast, in the Cotacachi-Cayapas national park, in the northern province of Esmeraldas.

    “Jaguars historically were distributed along all the Ecuadorian coast, but now they’re only in Esmeraldas,” says Zapata-Ríos, who has been studying the big cat for 10 years. “That’s the consequence of the advancement of human activity.”

    As one of the largest predators in Latin America, the jaguar is essential to maintaining equilibrium in rainforest ecosystems. If it disappears, everything below it in the food chain is affected, with an overpopulation of rodents – the jaguar’s prey – that would eat more bugs and seeds, and decrease the regeneration of trees and other plants in the forest, says Zapata-Ríos

    Ka kite Ano link below.

    1. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/11/ecuadors-vanishing-jaguars-the-big-cat-vital-to-rainforest-survival
  9. Eco maori 13

    Carving of Tane nui a Rangi, at Auckland Zoo.jpg

    Other namesTāne-mahuta, Tāne-nui-a-RangiGenderMaleRegionPolynesiaEthnic groupMāori, TahitiansPersonal informationConsortsHine-nui-te-pō, RangahoreOffspringHine-nui-te-pō, Tiki, Haumia-tiketike (southern Bay of Plenty and parts of the east coast)ParentsRangi and PapaSiblingsHaumia (Arawa), Rongo, Tangaroa, Tāwhirimātea, , Rūaumoko, Whiro

    New Zealand rainforest: the trees and birds are the children of Tāne

    The children of Rangi and Papa grew frustrated at their confinement in the cramped space between their parents. , future god of war, proposes that they should kill their parents. But Tāne (or Tāne-mahuta) disagrees, suggesting that it is better to separate them, sending Rangi into the sky and leaving Papa below to care for them. Tāne's brothers Rongo, then Tangaroa, Haumia-tiketike and Tū all try in vain to separate the parents. After many tries, Tāne lies on his back and pushes with his strong legs, and finally forces his parents apart, and Rangi rises high into the heavens (Grey 1956:2-3).[2] Then Tāne searched for heavenly bodies as lights so that his father would be appropriately dressed. He obtained the stars and threw them up, along with the moon and the sun. At last Rangi looked handsome (Orbell 1998:145).

    Tāwhirimātea, the god of storms and winds, is angry that the parents have been torn apart. He joins his father in the sky and punishes the earth and sea with violent storms (Grey 1956:3-6, Tregear 1891:54). Tāwhirimātea attacks the forests of Tāne, snapping the trunks of the trees, shattering the trees to the ground, leaving them as food for decay and insects. Then he attacks the oceans, and Tangaroa, the god of the sea, flees. Two of Tangaroa's descendants, Ikatere, father of fish and Tu-te-wehiwehi

    Ka kite Ano link below.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C4%81ne

  10. Eco maori 14

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C4%81ne

    Tane Mahuta God of the Forest

  11. Eco maori 15

    Kia Ora 1 News.

    Yes getting the tamariki vacancies is very important tangata.

    Ka kite Ano

  12. Eco maori 16

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    Its good that immigration decide to change that law that discriminatied against people.

    That's the way feed the tamariki and teach them cooking skills at the same time Kai Aroha Kura.

    Ka kite Ano

  13. Eco maori 17

    Waiata is good for one's Wairua I'm fighting to many Wahwahi to listen to some of the ones I like.

  14. Eco maori 18

    Kia Ora The breakfast show.

    The Venice flooding the highest in 50 years it great that a lot of the Mayors of the World’s climate are pointing out the true fact that the causes of their deasters.

    I say we need our population to stop being inflated by new people. Our environmental footprint is growing rapidly because of this phenomenon.

    Self belief is the best trait anyone can have.

    Ka kite Ano

  15. Eco maori 19

    It's quite easy to accept that Climate change has caused a lot of old civilization to collapse. not enough Kai because of droughts no Wai.

    The Neo-Assyrian empire was a mighty superpower that dominated the near east for 300 years before its dramatic collapse. Now researchers say they have a novel theory for what was behind its rise and fall: climate change.

    The empire emerged in about 912BC and grew to stretch from the Mediterranean down to Egypt and out to the Persian Gulf

    Now scientists say the reversal in the empire’s fortunes appears to coincide with a dramatic shift in its climate from wet to dry – a potentially crucial change in an empire reliant on crops.

    “Nearly two centuries of high precipitation and high agrarian outputs encouraged high-density urbanisation and imperial expansion that was not sustainable when climate shifted to megadrought conditions during the seventh century BC,” the authors write.

    In other words, while civil war, overexpansion and military defeat played a role in the empire’s collapse, the underlying driver could have been crop failures that led to economic collapse, exacerbating political unrest and conflict.

    Prof Nicholas Postgate, an expert on Assyria from the University of Cambridge who was not involved in the study, said it was plausible that climate change helped finish the empire. “We don’t have any better explanation for what happened to the Assyrian empire during those times,” he said, adding that there was a dearth of written records from about 645BC to the sack of Nineveh Ka kite Ano link below.

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/nov/13/climate-change-may-be-behind-fall-of-ancient-empire-say-researchers

  16. Eco maori 20

    Some Eco Maori Music For The Minute.

    https://youtu.be/G7DnJayQlQk

  17. Eco maori 21

    Kia Ora 1 News.

    I hear that accent.

    Trees mitigate carbon full stop what needs to happen is a selected gradient of topography needs to be planted.

    Venice is a ancient city there you go that's reality the discription of their leaders.

    Ka kite Ano.

  18. Eco maori 22

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    It took someone close to me 15 years to get through the court process but she did not get treated fairly by the system she got shredded by the court process and is still negatively affected by that trauma I have posted about it in my past post.

    Coke should not be using tangata whenua names to sell their products.

    Ka kite Ano.

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