Open mike 12/06/2016

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 12th, 2016 - 105 comments
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openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

105 comments on “Open mike 12/06/2016”

  1. Pasupial 1

    There’s apparently quite a good hospital in Flannel.

  2. Tony Veitch (not the partner-bashing 3rd rate broadcaster) 2

    I’ve just waded through 2hours and 25 minutes of the below link on rigging in the American primaries, and some of it was slow and difficult viewing.

    What did I gather for my pains?

    First, that the main speakers, Bob Fitrakis, Cliff Arnebeck and Lori Grace seemed quite adamant that a legal challenge will be mounted on voter manipulation and fraud and that Bernie will be the candidate to oppose Donald Trump.

    Well, that remains to be seen, though it would be great – for America, for democracy and for the world.

    The other insight I got is that either Trump or Clinton could win the election if they are the candidates. Clinton, because she is a known quantity and the establishment is quite comfortable with her. She’s well bought and paid for. She’ll do as she’s told. Trump, though he’s an idiot, he still might make it because his chief of staff is a known and skilled vote rigger. The Donald is so inexperienced that the establishment will have no trouble keeping him under control.

    There’s no doubt in my mind that this will be the best presidential election that money can buy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofB3QMbPu60

    • tc 2.1

      And what vast sums they are, estimates I’ve heard put the dark money in super pacs etc up from the 2bill 4 years back to be 10bill this time around.

    • mac1 2.2

      “The Donald is so inexperienced that the establishment will have no trouble keeping him under control.” They thought this about a certain racist, xenophobic, hater in the Thirties in Germany. He had a very good propaganda man, too.

  3. In case you didn’t the catch the (as usual) terrible job Mike Williams did of attacking Hooton over the budget on nine to noon a couple weeks ago….
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/201802578/political-commentators-matthew-hooton-and-mike-williams

    No wonder the Left can’t make any ground, when this is one our main spokespeople.

  4. Tory 4

    Tony V, Sanders lost not because of $ (he has plenty himself) or allegations of voter manipulation but he was essentially an independent in a 2 horse race.
    As for comments about Mike Williams, clearly the left can’t foot it with Matthew H which is why I enjoy Monday mornings at 11.05am

    • Adrian 4.1

      You have got to be joking, the Left can’t foot it with the right…what!
      There is good reason why left wing intellectuals rarely get interviewed or debated on mainstream media, because they ALWAYS destroy the right’s flimsy narrative, and dodgy stats.
      That is exactly why I am so amendment that Mike Williams leave RNZ, firstly because he is not a voice for the left, at best, maybe a voice from the centre (whatever that is), secondly he is certainly no Left wing intellectual.

      See what happens on mainstream media when the right debate Left wing intellectuals

      • joe90 4.1.1

        Vidal v Buckley is a cracker.

        • Crashcart 4.1.1.1

          The documentary “Best of Enemies” was all about this debate. Was really interesting to watch. To his Dying day Buckley hated that he lost his temper and essentially gave the debate to Vidal.

  5. Paul 5

    Another day in John Key’s neo-liberal nightmare.
    We have become a cruel, greedy, uncaring and selfish nation under his wretched leadership.

    And the Herald appears to have woken up to this.

    ‘Homeless pose a test of our humanity’

    James Gavet, a professional rugby league player with the Warriors, and his sister Riverlina, shows the best of our country.
    Paula Bennett shows us the worst of our country.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11654875

  6. joe90 6

    And we’re off…

    deray mckesson Verified account
    ‏@deray

    Jesse Jackson endorses Hillary Clinton

  7. William 7

    Yesterday the Dompost had a full page feature “Who wants to be Wellington’s mayor?” which summarises the candidate’s platforms.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/80804045/who-wants-to-be-wellingtons-mayor

    One of the candidates is Jo Coughlan. The article says
    “Coughlan believes Wellingtonians are frustrated. They feel let down by a lack of leadership, which led to the demise of the Basin Reserve flyover in 2014 and the never-ending battles over the Island Bay cycleway, she says.

    “They’ve been let down on roading, they’ve been let down on a billion dollars worth of roading investment and we need to correct that.”

    She’s also quoted
    “I’ll be wanting to lead a forward-focused, progressive council that isn’t afraid to actually make these big decisions and get things done.”

    Compare this to a speech that Bill English gave earlier this month to business leaders in Porirua, which has many similarities.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/80670855/bill-english-criticises-wellingtons-lack-of-progressive-attitude-to-transport-solutions.html

    Is this a case of great minds think alike, or is this Double Dipping Bill using his position as Minister of Finance to spruik for his sister inlaw, because Jo Coughlan just happens to be married to his brother Conor.

    • mauī 7.1

      When she talks about wanting 100 years of growth, that’s not what the city needs nor does it reflect the reality that growth won’t be possible for large chunks of time. Most of the other candidates are talking the same talk, build something new and shiny that people don’t really need. It will be interesting to see how good that $1 billion roading investment is when people won’t be able to afford to fill up in a decade or two.

      • William 7.1.1

        Indeed. If there’s any doubt about her roading fetish, she has a large billboard visible to southbound traffic approaching the Terrace Tunnel. At the bottom it states “1 for Mayor” where the “1” is denoted by the red shield used to label our state highways.
        She is also very keen on “an ‘iconic’ cycleway around the harbour” rather than building cycleways that are part of transport infrastructure. There’s an irony there because the recent Morrison Low Report (which she erroneously claimed credit for instigating) warns about that.
        From page 10.

        11: NZ Transport Agency’s interest is in cycling broadly, e.g.
        utility cycling (inter vs intra suburb) as well as
        recreational and commuter cycling. Some have
        perceived that the UCP is more narrowly focussed on
        recreational cyclists. WCC’s programme and funding
        needs to be positioned as a longer term programme of
        integrated transport network improvements.

        • DoublePlusGood 7.1.1.1

          Thanks for that. It’s always really hard to get a feel for the political and policy positions of candidates for local government positions, so it’s nice to get a good picture of where Coughlan stands (so that I don’t accidentally rank her highly out of ignorance).

  8. weka 8

    Not sure what to make of this. Reliable source or rumourmongering?

    The latest internal polling has National free falling to 44%, Labour at 31% and Greens at 12%.

    That means the Labour-Green bloc is at 43% and National is on 44% – that’s a mere 1 percent lead and the speed of the turn around suggests something has snapped in terms of voter apathy.

    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2016/06/10/latest-internal-polling-national-in-trouble/

    • It’s sadly meaningless, Weka. There’s no attribution so its most likely an internal poll of Bomber’s keyboard.

      • weka 8.1.1

        How could someone attribute a leaked internal poll?

        • te reo putake 8.1.1.1

          By saying where it’s from.

          • weka 8.1.1.1.1

            So if Bomber has said he got this from a National Party leak it would have been more reliable?

            • te reo putake 8.1.1.1.1.1

              No, not really. It wouldn’t much matter where it’s from; Nats, Labour, Greens or wherever. But not saying where it’s from and only giving figures for 3 parties suggest he’s plucked this gem out of his nether regions.

              • Colonial Viper

                It’s a good sign that LAB/GR is neck and neck with National polling, it means that Winston could be cut out of the picture. Why do you think this is a problem?

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  🙄

                • The problem is it appears to be bullshit. Anybody can make numbers up. Here’s some: 12, 87, 4. I’m not saying where I got them from or even which is which, but hey, they’re terrific numbers!

                  • Colonial Viper

                    OK, so you don’t believe that TDB has access to contacts who have seen internal polling numbers from anywhere, and therefore these numbers are entirely fictional?

                    Not doubting you, but wondering why you don’t think its plausible that LAB/GR have had a bump up and NATs a bump down, due to the MOU.

                    • Bomber

                      I believe TRP also initially called my blog on the pony tail pulling as a hoax I had invented and then spent the next 10months back peddling when the PMs Office confirmed it within hours.

                      [Nope. I urged caution in my post on the matter because it seemed such an unlikely story. Within hours it was proved to be true, so fair do’s to ya. However, you don’t get to come over here and tell porkies, Bomber. What you do on your own site is your business, of course. I note you haven’t provided any evidence that your ‘poll’ is real, so I reckon your next comment should address that matter. TRP]

                    • It’s an entirely plausible result of the MoU and very welcome if its the case. If we take it that there was a 5 point gap on the day of the Greens conference, which was the figure being put about, then it only requires about 2% to turn away from National to get exactly this result. But there is no information at all about the poll, no hint of where it cam from, who conducted it, what the margin of error is or anything to suggest it’s anything other than Bomber’s best guess.

                      I did a quick search and he’s had a few posts like this, all based on supposed internal polling. Again, no details and no indication that the polling is dinkum. I just find it odd that he would expect readers to just take his word for it. We wouldn’t take Colmar Brunton’s word for it, would we?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Cheers, Bomber. Trust you are having a good weekend.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      I note that Martyn’s comment provides no information about the origin of the polling figures, and doesn’t even deny they are fabricated.

                • BM

                  The only way Winston’s going to be cut out of the picture is if Lab/Greens get over 50% of the vote or National gets over 50% of the vote.

                  The likelier option out of those two is National and that’s looking rather unlikely at the moment.

                  Next Government will be a National/NZ first government, which too be honest is hardly surprising as NZ First is Nationals natural coalition partner, not Act/Dunne or Maori party.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Because of wasted votes you can probably get a majority in Parliament with 49% of votes.

                    But in principle I agree with you, and I still think it very unlikely that Labour will surpass 30%. Most likely party vote result 25% +/-3%. So yes you are right, the most probable result is that Winston is going to be king-maker. (BTW I see NZF adding MPs next election).

                    • BM

                      Looking forward NZ First will be the King maker for the next few elections as well, especially with the retirement of Key.

                      NZ First is the conservative wing of the National party, they’re a natural fit with National.

                      If Peters and Key can both work together and stitch up an initial deal I’d go as far to say the next two governments at least will be National/NZ First governments.

                      National around 40%, NZ First 15% or so, that’s a healthy majority that’s going to take a long time to over turn.

                  • b waghorn

                    Winston got knocked out of the game ( by filthy methods) in 08 so his base isn’t that reliable. If the tide turns he could vanish again.
                    5% of his vote is soft labour , that’s why labour should grow some and cut him loose.

                    • BM

                      Bit different this time around.

                      Aging population, ISIS, Muslims, Brexit, rapid multicultural change in NZ, expensive housing/land.

                      These are all issues some one like Peters can tap into and leverage to his advantage especially with the more conservative rural voter and disgruntled labour voter.

                    • weka

                      He’s less likely to go against his leftie voters this time though.

                      “Aging population, ISIS, Muslims, Brexit, rapid multicultural change in NZ, expensive housing/land.”

                      So long as Labour don’t do stupid shit like talking about raising the retirement age, their policies will appeal to enough of the people concerned about those things. If you are soft Labour and you think Peters will support National, why would you not vote Labour?

                    • b waghorn

                      He can’t do a thing about housing and the rest is pandering to xenophobic curtain twitching pearl clutchers .fuck them , labour should make them choose a side of the house.

                    • BM

                      If you are soft Labour and you think Peters will support National, why would you not vote Labour?

                      The Greens.

                    • weka

                      So they vote NZF, Peters goes with National and then his left wing voters punish him at the next election.

                    • Jenny

                      The way to deal with Winston Peters is to try and pin him down on the issues.

                      For instance the TPPA

                      Winston’s New Zealand First brand is nationalism. The TPPA is a clear infringement on New Zealand’s right as a sovereign nation to make its own laws.

                      To tie Winston Peters down to opposing the TPPA, which would put him offside with National and drive him closer to the Left, the Labour Party would first have to come out hard against the TPPA.

                      Which currently is not the case.

                      Radio Live’s Mark Sainsbury interviews Andrew Little to try to determine if the Labour Party does, or doesn’t support the TPPA.

                      http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Labour-wont-pull-out-of-the-TPP—Little/tabid/506/articleID/112603/Default.aspx

                      Mark Sainsbury @03:45 minutes
                      “Can I just get something straight from you. You are opposed to us signing it. Does that mean that if you became Prime Minister.., Labour was in power.., you would either, pull out of the treaty if it exists, or refuse to ratify it.” [if it doesn’t]

                      Andrew Little @03:58 minutes
                      “Well, um. No.”
                      “Well hold on, we signed it long ago, it was a clerical exercise, it was.., it didn’t create the agreement, the agreement was already created.”
                      “Secondly, ratification will happen over the next two years, our argument is, [National] has the numbers regardless….,”

                      Mark Sainsbury @04:11 Minutes
                      “But, in two years time you could be Prime Minister Andrew Little.”

                      Andrew Little @04:15 minutes
                      “And so the question then is; Would we pull out of it, if it was ratified, all the other countries have ratified it….,”
                      “We won’t.”

                      Clear as mud.

                      If the TPPA hasn’t been ratified by the Nats by the time Labour is in government, Labour will ratify it.

                      If the TPPA has already been ratified by the Nats by the time Labour is in Government, Labour will not pull out of it.

                      It is in this greasy middle ground where Peters can avoid having to live up to his Nationalist New Zealand First principles, and side with Nats in selling out this country’s independence.

                      I could also say the same thing about Winston Peters support for deep sea oil drilling in Northland, which is another controversial issue that Winston Peters will never be drawn on, because the main opposition party, the Labour Party also supports deep sea oil drilling in Northland.

                      As I said, the way to deal with a slippery customer like Winston Peters would be to pin him down on the issues, that could separate him from the Nats.

                      Because this is unlikely to happen. Winston Peters will be given a free pass to side with National.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    National hasn’t been NZFirsts natural coalition partner since ~1990 and the gap between them has been increasing ever since. Labour really does fit NZFirst far better.

                    • Karen

                      NZ First wasn’t formed until 1993 and went into coalition with National in 1996. Winston Peters and Ron Mark are both ex Nats who are basically old fashioned conservatives.

                      They could go either way but I suspect would be happiest with a confidence & supply agreement that enabled them to vote independently on most issues.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      NZ First wasn’t formed until 1993…

                      Yep, in response to National going hard neo-liberal.

                      …and went into coalition with National in 1996.

                      Probably in the same false assumption that BM made and we all know how it turned out.

                      Winston Peters and Ron Mark are both ex Nats who are basically old fashioned conservatives.

                      And, IMO, Labour is now pretty close to Old Fashioned Conservative.

                      They could go either way but I suspect would be happiest with a confidence & supply agreement that enabled them to vote independently on most issues.

                      Winston did say that last election but I get the feeling that they may be angling for something more this time but I could be wrong.

            • Graeme 8.1.1.1.1.2

              Not really, but if real it could explain the bizarre goings on over the last week

    • Colonial Viper 8.2

      I can imagine that Bradbury may have access to Greens or Labour internal polling via contacts or leaks. Unlikely National internal polling though.

  9. weka 9

    a new British startup called Score Assured has taken a big step in that direction: The company wants to, in the words of co-founder Steve Thornhill, “take a deep dive into private social media profiles” and sell what it finds there to everyone from prospective dates to employers and landlords.

    Its first product, Tenant Assured, is already live: After your would-be landlord sends you a request through the service, you’re required to grant it full access to your Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter and/or Instagram profiles. From there, Tenant Assured scrapes your site activity, including entire conversation threads and private messages; runs it through natural language processing and other analytic software; and finally, spits out a report that catalogues everything from your personality to your “financial stress level.”

    “If you’re living a normal life,” Thornhill reassures me, “then, frankly, you have nothing to worry about.”

    Oh, that’s alright then.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2016/06/09/creepy-startup-will-help-landlords-employers-and-online-dates-strip-mine-intimate-data-from-your-facebook-page/

  10. Here is a 22 sec. video of a pure gravity and office fire driven steel framed high rise collapse:

    • b waghorn 10.1

      I watched zeitgeist on netflx the other day. I’ve had to switch to the uncertain camp on 911, from the it was the planes that caused the collapse camp.

      • McFlock 10.1.1

        Hey, another internet vid almost had me in the uncertain camp ten years ago. Then it turned out to be complete bunk.

        That’s the thing about connect-the-dots theories: one gets fixated on individual dots at the expense of the overall picture.

      • Rosie 10.1.2

        Me other ‘alf is a CAD designer (old fashioned term is draughtperson) who works on structural engineering projects.

        Reckons there is no way a plane could bring down such a building and believes in the bomb blast theory. I don’t disagree with him, especially after reading Amy Goodman’s (Co editor of Democracy Now!) book “The exception to the rulers”

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exception_to_the_Rulers

        One chapter, can’t remember which one as it was so long ago that I read it, goes into the political climate in the US prior to 9/11 and how there was a desire from certain quarters for a “new pearl harbour” – there’s money in the military and fear is a good way to control a population. Goodman doesn’t go into WHAT happened and HOW but rather analyses the events prior. She leaves it up to the reader to make what they will of her facts. She also not one to make rash sensational claims so I trust her words.

        In saying that, I try to avoid mentioning three topics on TS, whose commenter’s I have a comradely fondness for but am happy to stay out of lengthy arguments around these three things.

        9/11

        Fluoridation of water

        Vaccination.

        These topics seem to press buttons

        • travellerev 10.1.2.1

          You mean Amy Goodman here running away from Building 7 collapsing who will not touch the subject and is paid for by George Soros?

          • Rosie 10.1.2.1.1

            Can’t tell. Sound doesn’t seem to work for me.

            Like I said, Goodman only discussed the political climate prior to 9/11, nothing else. I don’t know who George Soros is. If she’s not touching the subject maybe it’s because she gets a hard time from the authorities:

      • travellerev 10.1.3

        It took me three months or so to get over my cognitive dissonance and finally admit that the Official CT was scientifically not possible.

        Here is a website from Architects and Engineers for a new and independent investigation into what happened on that day.

        • Kiwiri 10.1.3.1

          hi travellerev, can someone tell us what really boring and most uninteresting office(s) are in wtc7?

      • Andre 10.1.4

        Ok b, since you seem to be able to think things through, here’s my routine for things like this.

        First up, look for debunk information. Such as google for zeitgeist debunk or 9/11 debunk.

        When balancing the credibility of different scenarios, ask yourself what’s more probable: a cock-up involving a few people, or a conspiracy involving hundreds if not thousands of people, all of whom would be in deep deep shit if caught. Just ponder what would happen to anyone caught doing what the conspiracy theorists claim was done. How long would a conspiracy that large remain secret?

        What benefit would the conspirators get from it, and is there a better way to get that benefit? For instance, if the motive was to justify going after bin Laden, he was already linked to the World Trade Center bombing in 93, and considered responsible for bombing the US embassies in Nairobi and Dar-es-Salaam in 98, bombing the USS Cole in 2000, and a bunch of other stuff, so there’s already justification there. If more was needed, much easier (and safer) to just cook up some lies like the alleged WMDs in Iraq.

        Could the conspiracy scenario have actually happened? It seems extremely implausible that a huge quantity of thermite/explosives could have been planted without someone noticing something going on. I’m not aware of any reports of anyone claiming to have seen anything like that happening.

        It’s the old cliche of motive, means and opportunity. All of which seem to be implausible/missing for the conspiracy scenario.

        Finally, my training and professional expertise is fairly relevant to considering the building collapses. Everything I see in the videos, photos etc is convincingly explained and accounted for in the NIST and FEMA reports, and I can see obvious flaws in the conspiracy theorist claims I’ve seen.

        • Paul 10.1.4.1

          The 9/11 official story requires a conspiracy involving hundreds if not thousands of people. You realise the Bin Laden story is a conspiracy theory, don’t you?

        • Paul 10.1.4.2

          ‘What benefit would the conspirators get from it?’

          Afghanistan
          Iraq
          Syria
          Libya

          General Wesley Clark
          So I came back to see him a few weeks later, and by that time we were bombing in Afghanistan. I said, “Are we still going to war with Iraq?”
          And he said, “Oh, it’s worse than that.” He reached over on his desk. He picked up a piece of paper. And he said, “I just got this down from upstairs” — meaning the Secretary of Defense’s office — “today.” And he said, “This is a memo that describes how we’re going to take out seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and, finishing off, Iran.”
          I said, “Is it classified?”
          He said, “Yes, sir.”
          I said, “Well, don’t show it to me.”
          And I saw him a year or so ago, and I said, “You remember that?” He said, “Sir, I didn’t show you that memo! I didn’t show it to you!

        • Colonial Viper 10.1.4.3

          Finally, my training and professional expertise is fairly relevant to considering the building collapses. Everything I see in the videos, photos etc is convincingly explained and accounted for in the NIST and FEMA reports, and I can see obvious flaws in the conspiracy theorist claims I’ve seen.

          Even the collapse of WTC7? Where a modern multi-story skycraper built in the 1980s was, as the official account insists, destroyed due to office and furnishings fires?

        • Paul 10.1.4.4

          ‘It seems extremely implausible that a huge quantity of thermite/explosives could have been planted without someone noticing something going on. I’m not aware of any reports of anyone claiming to have seen anything like that happening.’

          Radio interview with WTC employee Scott Forbes who says that there was an unusual power down in the top half of the WTC with suspicious workers coming in and out of building.

        • b waghorn 10.1.4.5

          I try to boil most things down to simple logic , and as you point out the big fish hook is how you demolish 3 buildings with out a single person spilling the beans.

          • Colonial Viper 10.1.4.5.1

            It’s a puzzling thing to civilians but there are organisations with teams throughout the world who do the kind of clandestine work which is not revealed for decades, if not longer.

            • Paul 10.1.4.5.1.1

              The Manhattan Project was one such secret project.

              • McFlock

                at least one spy ring within in the research facility leaked almost every detail to Stalin before even the broadest outline was declassified.

                • Paul

                  And ordinary civilians knew nothing.

                  • McFlock

                    For what – three years in a culture where everybody avoided aski questions?
                    Even then there were a large number of people with a pretty good idea of the broad strokes.

                    But no, you reckon that a government conspiracy of thousands with absolutely no leaks is as likely as a few dozen guys with visas and boxcutters.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Core conspiracy of 100 people or less.

                    • weka

                      Pretty hard to imagine in a world with the internet.

                    • McFlock

                      Oh, now you can calculate the HR needs of top-secret multi-building demolition jobs? Good for you.

                      Meanwhile: tewnty chaps to buy boxcutters and plane tickets. One or two to give them the ok and the cash.

        • Colonial Viper 10.1.4.6

          Could the conspiracy scenario have actually happened? It seems extremely implausible that a huge quantity of thermite/explosives could have been planted without someone noticing something going on.

          It seems extremely implausible that 2 jet planes could collapse three steel reinforced skyscrapers yet you have no problem with it.

          Also, micro-thermitic residue (‘red chips’ as they became known in microscope studies) was found throughout the dust from the Twin Towers. Is there another explanation for its presence?

          • Andre 10.1.4.6.1

            Just remember the tanks of the mind-control stuff they use to make chemtrails were also full. Who knows how hot that stuff burns?

            • Colonial Viper 10.1.4.6.1.1

              Hi Andre, I understand that you don’t want to look more closely at the issue. Even 9/11 Commission members said that they had been deliberately lied to or mislead.

            • Paul 10.1.4.6.1.2

              Are you prepared to look at the evidence or are you more interested in name calling?

              • Andre

                I’ve already spent way too much time looking at the evidence, from a point of view that’s deeply suspicious of the American military-industrial complex. Every claimed “smoking gun” I’ve seen has been adequately explained, by experts I’m satisfied aren’t tainted, yet they still get repeated by conspiracy theorists over and over again. So go ahead and present any evidence you want, but I’m really not interested in tracking down the debunk for you. If you manage to show me something I haven’t seen before and isn’t already adequately explained, then I’ll be interested and suspend the snarkiness.

                On a personal level, I worked in New Jersey until 96. I have friends that were deeply affected by 9/11 (no deaths or injuries, just psychologically). So I have a strong personal interest in honestly knowing what happened. Irresponsible bullshit conspiracy theories really piss me off, though.

                • Colonial Viper

                  I went up the Twin Towers the year before they came down. You’re not the only one with personal connection to the area.

                  If nothing else, you should respect the very many friends and families of the victims as well as thousands of professionals, engineers and scientists who have been calling for a true investigation of the events of 9/11.

                  • McFlock

                    I respect the opinions of the vast majority (what, greater than 95%?) of “professionals, engineers and scientists” who dhave not been recycling fantasies.

                    But feel free to keep treating the deaths of thousands as a personal hobby. It’s better than you offering medical advice.

                • One Two

                  Every claimed “smoking gun” I’ve seen has been adequately explained, by experts I’m satisfied aren’t tainted

                  That’s a strong position you’ve arrived at!

                  Do you know all the so called experts and their conflicts of interest ,intimately?

          • KJT 10.1.4.6.2

            Having gone over it with one of New Zealands top civil engineers.

            The buildings were toppled by the planes. Partly due to structural inadequacies.

            I will however concede this to the conspiracy theorists.
            We do not know who was ultimately behind the people who flew the planes into the towers. “False flag” operations are not unknown.

            But. It is very hard to keep things like that secret for long. Look at how we now know about, the CIA’s “regime changes”.

            • Paul 10.1.4.6.2.1

              Planes don’t cause buildings to collapse at freefall.
              And how does ‘your top engineer’ explain WTC7?
              Remember…the Bin Laden yarn is a conspiracy theory.

              • McFlock

                “at freefall”.
                Lie, repeatedly debunked.

              • McFlock

                Rev’s initial video post shows debris falling outside the building ahead of the collapsing bits.

                The debris is at freefall speed, and falling ahead of (faster than) the collapsing bits. Therefore the collapse is not at freefall speed.

                This is exactly the sort of liberty taken with the obvious that makes me go with NIST rather than the mistruthers.

            • Colonial Viper 10.1.4.6.2.2

              Did this top civil engineer discuss with you how WTC7, the third skyscraper, collapsed then.

    • Paul 10.2

      We know we were lied to about weapons of mass destruction, yet we refuse to question the same liars with regard to 9/11.

      • Colonial Viper 10.2.1

        There is a hybrid possibility where planning for a genuine terrorist attack was detected early on but essentially allowed to happen (or even facilitated in some ways) by authorities who wanted to take advantage of the shock and fear resulting from the event.

        Several of the Saudi 9/11 attackers appear to have gotten US visas from the US consulate in Jeddah, which was heavily staffed by CIA.

        For people who don’t think that the US Government – or a small part of it at least – would consider an operation like this as an option – simply google Operation Northwoods.

  11. joe90 11

    Problems, but not as some imagine.

    Pennsylvania4Bernie
    ‏@PennForBernie

    @JordanChariton PLEASE SHARE! CRUCIAL INFO for CA VOTERS!

  12. cogito 12

    The Guardian have written a piece on Max Key.

    ‘Got caught sleeping on Air Force One’: the lavish lifestyle of New Zealand PM’s son
    Instagram account of 21-year-old Max Key showcases a stream of luxurious properties and extravagant purchases

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/12/got-caught-sleeping-on-air-force-one-the-lavish-lifestyle-of-new-zealand-pms-son

  13. Paul 13

    From the same article

    ‘His public profile is notably at odds with that of other children of world leaders, his Instagram account a stream of far-flung holiday destinations, luxurious properties – including the Keys’ multimillion-dollar Auckland home – and extravagant purchases.
    His self-promotional savvy is not exactly unusual: at 21, he’s a member of Generation Z, which came after the reportedly selfie-obsessed Millennials. With a full 90% of young adults aged 18 to 29 using social media, they’re comfortable with the public persona that goes with it, and the cost of maintaining that: basically phones out, at all times – even at the breakfast table.
    Max isn’t the only 21-year-old to celebrate his birthday by going out for brunch with his parents, nor to mark the occasion with a photo to post to Facebook. But very few share their happy-family snap with the 227,000 people who follow the prime minister, John Key.
    Max is used to the spotlight (though he did not respond to Guardian Australia’s email request for an interview).
    His parents often feature in his posts, with Max apparently aware of the interest in the private life of the prime minister – and doing, it seems, every bit to capitalise on it. He debuted his single, Forget You, on his first regular slot on Auckland local radio, titled Key’d In.’

  14. North 14

    It’s extraordinary ! Never, never before have we had a prime minister’s son sticking his cock out quite like the spawn of Prime Ponce ShonKey Python. Says it all really. How many New Zealand Government $$$$ are gonna be commandeered to support Crosby Textor’s “Max” account ?

    • Pat 15.1

      ah….see im a little late…..never mind, is so bad it deserves a double posting.

    • joe90 15.2

      …those two toed shoulders…do some work ya mug…

      • Gangnam Style 15.2.1

        The comments on the Guardian article, gold!

        • cogito 15.2.1.1

          This govt is very quick to point the finger at struggling young mums, the homeless and others for making “poor choices” and then you look at the sorts of vulgar choices and sickening decadent lifestyles that Key’s own family engage in.

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