Open Mike 12/10/2016

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 12th, 2016 - 144 comments
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openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

144 comments on “Open Mike 12/10/2016 ”

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  1. The Chairman 1
    12 October 2016 at 6:20 am

    It’s starting to snowball

    Palmerston North to probe building designs following Masterton flaws
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/85155983/palmerston-north-to-review-building-designs

    Horowhenua mayor refuses to enter council building, claiming it’s unsafe
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/85203132/horowhenua-mayor-refuses-to-enter-council-building-claiming-it-unsafe

  3. Tory 3
    12 October 2016 at 7:27 am

    Given Paul usually starts the day with providing “dire news”, from the MSM that he dislikes (paradox), I thought I would start the day with something more interesting;

    http://radaronline.com/photos/kylie-jenner-blac-chya-feud-instagram-rob-kardashian-tyga-blonde-makeup-photos/

    Buckle yourself in, all out war between Kylie Jenner and Blac Chyna, without a cruise missile in sight…..

    • Sabine 3.1
      12 October 2016 at 7:56 am

      interesting

      interesting
      ˈɪnt(ə)rɪstɪŋ/Submit
      adjective
      arousing curiosity or interest; holding or catching the attention.
      “an interesting debate”
      synonyms: absorbing, engrossing, fascinating, riveting, gripping, compelling, compulsive, spellbinding, captivating, engaging, enthralling, entrancing, beguiling; More

      yeah, right Tui.

    • Muttonbird 3.2
      12 October 2016 at 8:24 am

      A good illustration of what RWNJs, and teenagers, find important in life.

    • Paul 3.3
      12 October 2016 at 11:00 am

      Bread and circuses.

    • reason 3.4
      12 October 2016 at 12:28 pm

      Posting about the kardashians seems pretty dicky to me … go waste you’re own time

      Or was it just an excuse for a tory dick pic to spurt out an unpleasant comment about Paul ….

      If you would like to talk about something relevant to New Zealand ….

      I’m interested to know if you think Key was being cheeky and having a private laugh when he was reported as extolling New Zealanders to be more charitable and generous like u.s.a citizens??? …..

      he was saying things like ………” develop an American-style culture of giving.” ……”like to see New Zealanders become more like Americans, who give twice as much”

      And he did this after their charity and bailout to him for $5 million?, $10 million?, $15 million ? ( we are not sure of the exact amount yet ) went through …. January 2009 it was all finalized

      “Merrill Lynch was sold to Bank of America for 0.8595 shares of Bank of America common stock for each Merrill Lynch common share”

      “lousy deal for Bank of America and its shareholders. On January16, the bank’s stock closed around $7 per share, as investors worried about both the size of the losses and the need for another government bailout. It reached its nadir of $3.14 per share six weeks later, a collapse of 90 percent since before Lewis decided to do the Merrill deal”

      “The government would invest another $20 billion into Bank of America—bringing the total TARP funds at the bank to $45 billion—and would also “provide protection against further losses” on $118 billion in toxic assets, primarily taken from the Merrill Lynch balance sheet.”

  4. greywarshark 4
    12 October 2016 at 8:39 am

    Q. Where do brownlees sit at Chinese defence meetings?
    A. Anywhere they want.
    (But most likely close behind where USers are.)

  5. greywarshark 5
    12 October 2016 at 8:44 am

    Q. Where do brownlees sit at Chinese defence meetings?
    A. Anywhere they want.
    (Mostly close behind where the USers sit.)

  6. Quasimodo 6
    12 October 2016 at 9:09 am

    “Getting to grips with Trump” – a great critical interview. My only reservation is that it empowers Clinton – but that is what you get in a simplistic two party system.

    https://www.ineteconomics.org/ideas-papers/interviews-talks/getting-to-grips-with-the-trump-phenomenon

  7. joe90 7
    12 October 2016 at 9:12 am

    Hmm, plausible…. but then we already know Trump is racist from the days when he put (c) on the applications of blacks seeking housing.

    Theory: Trump surrogates attack on hip-hop is pre-emptive move, to prepare for release of video of Trump using n-word. https://t.co/bQ2BrSa25H— Jeet Heer (@HeerJeet) October 11, 2016

    • weka 7.1
      12 October 2016 at 11:10 am

      Hi joe, just wanted to say that your ongoing comments on Trump re misogyny and racism are very much appreciated.

      • Manuka AOR 7.1.1
        12 October 2016 at 12:48 pm

        Like weka says 🙂

      • Manuka AOR 7.1.2
        12 October 2016 at 12:59 pm

        Tuesday, the national women’s advocacy organization UltraViolet Action took out a full-page ad in the Post featuring the voices of more than 3,000 survivors of sexual assault calling on Republican leaders, candidates, and elected officials to denounce Trump’s misogyny. http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/10/11/trump-now-unshackled-what-next-gops-institutional-misogyny

        • Pasupial 7.1.2.1
          12 October 2016 at 1:41 pm

          This seems as apposite a place as any to reference this post I read earlier (because it is good to be precise about things):

          an active trauma therapist… I am a licensed social worker, and I am a member of a team that includes forensic investigators, child protection workers, child advocates, and law enforcement…

          What Donald Trump describes on those tapes is not sexual assault. It is sexual battery. He talks about not just intimidating, harassing, and threatening women without their consent; he talks about putting his mouth and his hands on women’s bodies without their permission, on places that we consider private and protected. The Department of Justice’s definition of sexual assault is any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient. The definition of Sexual battery is an unwanted form of contact with an intimate part of the body that is made for purposes of sexual arousal, sexual gratification or sexual abuse. Sexual battery may occur whether the victim is clothed or not. It is a crime.

          http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/10/11/1580874/-Its-called-sexual-battery

          • joe90 7.1.2.1.1
            12 October 2016 at 2:11 pm

            Rachel Stewart:

            No predator more dangerous than the human male

            […]

            For me, all of this day in and day out misogyny, leads me to a place of righteous anger. I mean, you’re reading a columnist right now who has had numerous rape and death threats merely for expressing an opinion. I totally comprehend the degree of hatred some men have for women. I get it.

            Watching Trump, for example, stalking Hillary Clinton around the stage and standing close behind her in the second debate made me want an American bald eagle to grab his pudgy orange face. We know they don’t like him either.

            http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11726591

          • Manuka AOR 7.1.2.1.2
            12 October 2016 at 2:13 pm

            Yep. Similarly, Trump’s behaviour on stage at the 2nd debate was difficult for some of us to watch as it was threatening, intimidating and stalking – right there in an officially condoned setting. WHY did neither of the mods call a halt to it? It was disgusting.
            If Donald Trump had meant to reassure voters, as he said, that “no one respects women more than I do,” the ways in which his behavior mirrored that of a stalker and a rapist sent a signal to women that they received, even if many of the post-debate analyses chose to ignore it. While pundits commented on Trump’s declaration that, if he is elected, he will appoint a special prosecutor to investigate Clinton, and then, less than a minute later, told her if he were president, “you would be in jail,” — which they rightly called out for its similarity to Putin’s policy toward his political “enemies” in autocratic Russia — they failed to note just how physically threatening Trump was in his demeanor toward Clinton herself.

            But women noticed. In a culture in which 1 in 5 women will REPORT being raped in their lifetime, women are aware that they live in rape culture, which “is a complex of beliefs that encourages male sexual aggression and supports violence against women. It is a society where violence is seen as sexy and sexuality as violent. In a rape culture, women perceive a continuum of threatened violence that ranges from sexual remarks to sexual touching to rape itself. A rape culture condones physical and emotional terrorism against women as the norm.” (from Transforming a Rape Culture.) [emph added] http://www.rawstory.com/2016/10/trump-stalked-clinton-onstage-at-the-debate-and-women-recognized-him-as-a-threat/

            • weka 7.1.2.1.2.1
              12 October 2016 at 5:14 pm

              Thanks for that. I didn’t watch the debate, but that doesn’t surprise me at all.

            • Andre 7.1.2.1.2.2
              12 October 2016 at 5:22 pm

              “WHY did neither of the mods call a halt to it?”

              Maybe they thought it was a Trump behaviour pattern that needed maximum public exposure?

      • joe90 7.1.3
        12 October 2016 at 1:07 pm

        Ta.
        Re misogyny – pity it took forty something years and the revelations of a loved one, have dig around in the archives, I would but reading it again would jigger my day, before the scales were shed.

      • One Two 7.1.4
        12 October 2016 at 4:43 pm

        Why do you appreciate the comments?

  8. Chooky 8
    12 October 2016 at 9:55 am

    Clinton supports Fracking …if Clinton gets to be President a revised TPP will be negotiated imo and New Zealand will be Fracked ( f..ked)

    https://www.rt.com/usa/362358-wikileaks-third-podesta-emails/

    …”
    The October 2015 email from Tony Carkk contains a list of the Clinton campaign’s “hits” on Sanders. A conversation between the campaign and the pollsters in February 2016, after Sanders won New Hampshire discusses “new possible negatives” to test in the poll, “since most of our attacks haven’t been working.” One of the ideas is to condemn Sanders for “socialism” and say he wants to “gut America’s national security.”

    In February 2016, after the Sanders campaign broadcast a TV ad against fracking, the Clinton camp drafted a response painting his proposal as“extreme, unfeasible and ignores the contribution natural gas has made to our economy and our efforts to reduce carbon pollution.”

    Also included is an email chain from February 15, 2016 titled ‘Pushback on immigration,’ which shows a request for Ken Salazar, who was the US secretary of the interior from 2009 to 2013, to write an op-ed to smear Bernie Sanders'”professed support for immigration.”

    ‘Pro-fracking insider appointed by Clinton to head presidential transition team”

    https://www.rt.com/usa/356278-clinton-transition-team-fracking-tpp/

    (imo while Clinton now opposes the TPP for other reasons, if she is elected it will be back on the table ..and fracking will be up there

    …”She once said TPP “sets the gold standard of trade agreements.”

    http://www.businessinsider.com.au/hillary-clinton-policy-on-tpp-trade-deal-2016-10?r=US&IR=T

    http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Hillary_Clinton_Free_Trade.htm

    • Karen 8.1
      12 October 2016 at 10:26 am

      We already have fracking in NZ.

      Have a look at the Clinton and Trump positions on climate change. Currently, Al Gore is supporting Hillary Clinton in Florida.

      https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/climate/

      https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/12/donald-trump-climate-change-science-sierra-club

      • Colonial Viper 8.1.1
        12 October 2016 at 10:46 am

        Back to the real world, there’s not 5ppm difference between Trump and Clinton.

        Clinton admittedly, says the nicer, more soothing words about acting on climate change.

        But you can tell by the actions of President Obama and his Democratic administration that massive fossil fuel extractions is fine by them, and by their corporate sponsors.

        • marty mars 8.1.1.1
          12 October 2016 at 10:56 am

          I challenge the 5ppm line. You have no evidence for this at all, it just fits with your self composed narrative. How many ppm is ‘ clean coal ‘ worth for instance.

          • Bill 8.1.1.1.1
            12 October 2016 at 11:12 am

            Been seeing this pop up for a wee while now and just letting it go “whoosh”.

            But… (roughly speaking) there’s a 1ppm yearly increase in atmospheric CO2…or is it 2?

            Anyway. 36 billion tonnes of CO2 – there or thereabouts -gives us the measured annual increase in ppm.

            So 5ppm is anywhere between 5 years worth of human related global carbon emissions and 2 and a half years worth.

            Or anywhere between 90 billion tonnes and 180 billion tonnes.

            In other words, if the claim is that US emissions would vary by 5ppm under either of the two of them, then we’re talking a huge difference. Not that it makes a difference. It’s like arguing over getting hit by a family saloon doing 90km/h and a truck doing 90km/h – the outcome’s the same.

          • weka 8.1.1.1.2
            12 October 2016 at 11:13 am

            @ marty, +1 It’s another of CV’s slogans designed to impose his version of reality and it ignores other ways of understanding the situation. Trumpish I guess.

          • Colonial Viper 8.1.1.1.3
            12 October 2016 at 11:14 am

            Maybe 0.5 to 1.0ppm? Dunno. The USA is a large user of coal, but even then it only represents 12% of global coal consumption.

            The US is still going to consume 19M-20M barrels of oil per day whether its Clinton or Trump.

            OK if optimistically immediately Clinton halves the level of coal use in the USA, that will reduce global coal consumption by 6%. Is that worth a 1ppm difference. Dunno.

            I’d say its less.

            • weka 8.1.1.1.3.1
              12 October 2016 at 11:18 am

              I take that to mean you made the 5ppm thing up.

              • Colonial Viper …
                12 October 2016 at 11:21 am

                Of course I made it up, but I’m also willing to defend it.

                Because I am confident that none of you have any idea how a Clinton term as President will be able to result in more than 5ppm CO2 difference compared to a Trump term as President.

                Currently the entire world out put of CO2 is resulting in approx 2ppm CO2 increase per year.

                I’m of course more than willing to be proven wrong, so go for it weka.

                • weka …
                  12 October 2016 at 11:28 am

                  I’m not interested in the maths so much as the propaganda. Always happy to keep naming that as I see it. It’s the disingenuousness of the argument that stands out right now. Because you present it as a damnation of Clinton, rather than of the office of the Presidency in the US, and you use that to promote Trump who doesn’t believe in CC. By your own admission you know they are both ill prepared for what is coming, but you don’t present that argument. I;m much more interesting in challenging all that, and the damage it does than I am arguing over some imaginary figures.

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    12 October 2016 at 11:34 am

                    I’ll take that as a tacit admission that my “not even 5ppm difference between Trump and Clinton” may be spot on.

                    By your own admission you know they are both ill prepared for what is coming, but you don’t present that argument.

                    au contraire, my 5ppm statement says exactly that.

                    • Manuka AOR …
                      12 October 2016 at 1:36 pm

                      “Environmentalists slammed Trump’s self-proclaimed energy revolution which, as he reiterated Thursday, would end the war on coal and scrap the $5 trillion Obama-Clinton Climate Action Plan and the Clean Power Plan.

                      “Donald Trump … takes talking points from the biggest polluters in the country to slap together his disastrous energy positions,” Sierra Club political director Khalid Pitts said.

                      “Trump’s dirty-fuels-first plan is pretty simple: drill enough off our coasts to threaten beaches from Maine to Florida, frack enough to spoil groundwater across the nation, and burn enough coal to cook the planet and make our kids sick. In stark contrast, Hillary Clinton is the only candidate in this race who is committed to grow the booming clean energy economy to create jobs and help tackle the climate crisis.”

                      Trump’s Climate Denial Would Have ‘Severe and Long-Lasting’ Consequences https://t.co/7cS7Br6Edk @CeresNews @YaleClimateComm
                      — EcoWatch (@EcoWatch) 1474502711.0

                      “Greenpeace USA spokesperson Cassady Sharp agrees. “Donald Trump proved again that he is an unfit leader with no grasp on reality,” she said.

                      “Trump pandered to the Marcellus Shale industry today, singing the praises of a dangerous energy extraction process that threatens the health and safety of families and communities all over this country, and promising to slash critical regulations and the EPA [U.S. Environmental Protection Agency]. This man has no business dealing with America’s energy policy, and he would be a belligerent catalyst of catastrophic climate change if he were elected president.”
                      http://www.ecowatch.com/donald-trump-fracking-2012606194.html

                    • weka …
                      12 October 2016 at 2:05 pm

                      I’ll take that as a tacit admission that my “not even 5ppm difference between Trump and Clinton” may be spot on.

                      Which would be you lying about my views. Again. Please stop.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      12 October 2016 at 5:55 pm

                      I just told you how I decided to perceive your comments, weka.

                      And guess what – you don’t get to determine how I perceive your comments.

            • marty mars 8.1.1.1.3.2
              12 October 2016 at 5:14 pm

              dunno is about right so just a guess as I suspected and a guess used to muddy the picture and support a dubious proposition – that a climate change denier is just a teeny, weeny bit worse that a non-climate change denier (although Bill has sorted the numbers out and they are gigantic and alarming). So your 5ppm is just propaganda, spin, a twirl, so that you can pretend that supporting a climate change denier still means you have credibility as a climate change commenter – it doesn’t, and you don’t.

              • Garibaldi …
                12 October 2016 at 5:36 pm

                Why you guys keep hammering away at CV when he is so obviously correct in what he is saying is getting tedious. If you think corporate capitalist USA under either Clinton or Trump is going to address cc adequately you’re bloody deluded.

                • Paul …
                  12 October 2016 at 5:43 pm

                  Totally agree garibaldi.
                  Both Clinton and Trump will be disastrous for many of the Planet’s species, including us.
                  Clinton may beat cc to the punch by instigating and/or provoking a thermo-nuclear war over the Ukraine, Syria or the Baltic states.

                  • marty mars …
                    12 October 2016 at 5:54 pm

                    pretty dull conventional analysis there paul – do you want the world to burn? do you want megadeath consequences of disregarding climate change? do you think a climate change denier is the same as a non climate change denier?

                    perhaps a little like this…

                    “no but clinton is the devil in a dress and what about xyz, or uvw and rst – why not talk about that instead of this really hard stuff around climate change, don hasn’t even been tested in ANY political office and you guys just write him off without giving him a chance – you just pick up on what he says and does and use that against him – he has said he will do nothing wrong as potus and you should just believe him”

                • marty mars …
                  12 October 2016 at 5:46 pm

                  he’s not correct and in the 5ppm line he admitted he made it up – why don’t you take your tedium for a walk instead of moaning.

  9. save nz 9
    12 October 2016 at 9:56 am

    A new report shows New Zealand is the second most expensive place to get childcare in the world, behind only Britain.

    OECD research suggests it’s twice as expensive here as it is in Australia.

    Kiwis need to ask why is everything so expensive here in particular for families? The cost of building is also much higher than Australia and the US.

    Broadband, electricity, food, housing… why are the basics so expensive… when wages are so low and we produce many raw materials…

    Of course having the Paula Restocks of the world in charge of the commerce commission does not help with our burgeoning crony plutocrats and kleptocrat culture…

    • BM 9.1
      12 October 2016 at 10:08 am

      A new report shows New Zealand is the second most expensive place to get childcare in the world, behind only Britain.

      Great business opportunity for you there, set up a child care center and and only charge half of what every one else does.
      You’ll be so over run with business you won’t know what to do.

  10. adam 10
    12 October 2016 at 10:46 am

    For all of you who like old school hip-hop. Or for those who just like really good music here is ‘Common and Friends’.

    Yes that Common, http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/rapper-commons-white-house-visit-called-controversial-critics/story?id=13572464

    Just look were he playing this time…

    “Letter To The Free” just a stand out track, makes me wanna watch the documentary now.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AChGszRGwI

  11. rhinocrates 11
    12 October 2016 at 10:54 am

    Giovanni Tiso on the valedictory speeches of Lange and Goff in light or Rogernomics.

    Lange: “‘It was just terrible.’ He concluded. ‘That is the sort of thing that happened, and I am deeply aware of that.'”

    Goff: “Me mememememememe me me meeeeeee mmmeee me me me me.”

    Giovanni’s assessment of Goff:

    “There is a lot of talk in pragmatic left circles about the ‘missing million’, that is to say all those non-voters – many of whom belong to the working class – to which Labour still feels naturally entitled, but that it would rather hector every three years than commit to serving. That missing million is the single clearest piece of evidence that Phil Goff’s political career has been a failure… It takes a special kind of left-wing politician to look back on the last three decades of our history and fail to acknowledge the disenfranchisement of so many.”

    http://bat-bean-beam.blogspot.co.nz/2016/10/fail-proof.html

    As for me, to Goff: Don’t let the door catch your arse on the way out. Labour’s better with you gone. Sorry, Auckland.

    • Puckish Rogue 11.1
      12 October 2016 at 11:01 am

      Do you think, now that Goff has gone and Mallard and king are on the way out, that Labour will now apologise for Rogernomics?

      Not that I think they should apologise for it but others on here seem to think Labour should apologise and given that all those who were part of that era are now gone (or going) will it be easier for the apology to come?

      • rhinocrates 11.1.1
        12 October 2016 at 11:04 am

        Politics being what it is, I think that an apology is very, very unlikely. There are plenty still of the right wing in Labour such as Parker and Mumbles whom Little feels he has to appease.

        Any apology would come from someone retiring or retired who has nothing left to lose and will look like exactly what they are: crocodile tears.

      • Colonial Viper 11.1.2
        12 October 2016 at 11:05 am

        Do you think, now that Goff has gone and Mallard and king are on the way out, that Labour will now apologise for Rogernomics?

        You’ve got two shows of that: no show, and shit show.

    • weka 11.2
      12 October 2016 at 11:07 am

      thanks for that!

    • Karen 11.3
      12 October 2016 at 11:34 am

      Really glad to see him out of the Labour caucus, and as an Aucklander am willing to take one for the team … although I don’t think he will be too bad as mayor compared to some of the alternatives on offer.

      • Wayne 11.3.1
        12 October 2016 at 7:54 pm

        I do hope that Labour takes your advice and deselects anyone who is say as centre right as David Parker (or they simply retire). That will get rid of around 10 Labour MP’s. Then get real leftists to replace them.
        Next step, go for a Corbynite platform.
        Then you will know whether NZ wants that agenda.
        At least the U.K. gets to run that option in May 2020

        • Garibaldi 11.3.1.1
          13 October 2016 at 6:06 am

          Why are you so keen to accelerate our demise with your right wing blindness Wayne. One day you just might realize that everything you stand for is a sure fire recipe for disaster, though somehow I doubt you are capable of that because of your exalted position as an overpaid ,spoilt Party hack.

  12. Colonial Viper 12
    12 October 2016 at 11:02 am

    Russian Govt officials told to immediately bring back children studying abroad

    Regardless of whether or not this interrupts their years programme of study. Well this is a confidence inspiring development.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-11/russian-government-officials-told-immediately-bring-back-children-studying-abroad

    • joe90 12.1
      12 October 2016 at 11:23 am

      I guess they’re planning to use those Iskander-M systems relocated to bring swathes of Western Europe into range.

      • adam 12.1.1
        12 October 2016 at 6:17 pm

        Love how you put your ignorance on display to try and score points joe90.

        It’s a bloody scary development, but then you would actually have to take an interest in Russian politics, and Russian culture to get what has just happened.

        But for you joe90 its more important to be glib and carry on a pointless fight. Tiresome, just tiresome.

  13. Karen 13
    12 October 2016 at 11:28 am

    New policy from Clinton to help the poorest families. Paul Krugman on twitter “This is big…”

    http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/11/13237160/hillary-clinton-child-tax-credit

  14. Grim 14
    12 October 2016 at 11:39 am

    Hillary kickstarted the Syrian war, approved WMD, regime change and murder of children,

    http://www.dcclothesline.com/2016/05/03/pulitzer-prize-winning-journalist-hillary-approved-sending-sarin-gas-to-rebels-to-frame-assad-start-syrian-war/

    In April of 2013, Britain and France informed the United Nations that there was credible evidence that Syria used chemical weapons against rebel forces. Only two months later, in June of 2013, the United States concluded that the Syrian government did, in fact, use chemical weapons in its fight against opposition forces. President Obama immediately used this chemical attack as a pretext for invasion and authorized direct U.S. military support to the rebels, according to the White House.

    Since the US has been funding these ‘moderate rebels’ more than 250,000 people have been killed, over 7,600,000 have been internally displaced, and 4,000,000 other human beings have been forced from the country entirely.

    All of this death and destruction carried out by a sadistic army of rebels who’ve been funded and armed by the United States government, based on, what we are now told, was a complete fabrication.

    World renowned journalist Seymour Hersh has revealed, in a series of interviews and books, that the Obama Administration falsely blamed the government of Syria’s Bashar al-Assad for the sarin gas attack that Obama was trying to use as an excuse to invade Syria.

    As Eric Zuesse explained in Strategic Culture, Hersh pointed to a report from British intelligence saying that the sarin that was used didn’t come from Assad’s stockpiles. Hersh also said that a secret agreement in 2012 was reached between the Obama Administration and the leaders of Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar, to set up a sarin gas attack and blame it on Assad so that the US could invade and overthrow Assad.

    • Chooky 14.1
      12 October 2016 at 12:17 pm

      +100 Grim…Assad and the Russians especially Putin get blamed for everything by the Western US driven mainstream media…It is Orwellian. Reverse everything they say and you are nearer the truth

      …some now say the msm is dead in the water as far as credibility

    • Psycho Milt 14.2
      12 October 2016 at 1:26 pm

      Hersh also said that a secret agreement in 2012 was reached between the Obama Administration and the leaders of Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar, to set up a sarin gas attack and blame it on Assad so that the US could invade and overthrow Assad.

      His claim would have a bit more credibility if the US had invaded and overthrown Assad. As for Hillary Clinton “kick-starting’ this civil war, it started in 2011 – anything the US government was up to in 2012 was about response to an existing conflict, not about starting one.

      It’s getting so you can’t tell whether the smear campaign’s a left-wing or right-wing one. The linked article strikes me as having been written by left-wing nutjobs, but it could just as easily have been written by their right-wing equivalents.

      • Grim 14.2.1
        12 October 2016 at 2:26 pm

        well yes, exactly, you can’t tell because there is no difference, they work for the same masters, Hillary is a hawkish neocon accepting millions from corporate interests and known terrorist sponsors, http://imgur.com/a/GS8bb
        yet this doesn’t matter because she has a vagina, so she gets the liberal vote, even though she shafted Sanders, Trump is a sexist “selfmade man” (yeah right) who will return America’s manhood , so he gets the red-blooded vote, and disenfranchised and disgusted with establishment vote.

        Meanwhile 3rd party candidates who could be less connected and less corrupt don’t get a mention, media circus keeping the spotlight on the 2 selected options.

        Both Bill Clinton and Trump have flown on Epsteins rape jet, Bill Clinton 26 times, neither Hillary or Trump are President Material, but the left here continue to post Hillary support, why?

        • Psycho Milt 14.2.1.1
          12 October 2016 at 2:46 pm

          I wouldn’t call it “support” for Hillary Clinton – like most of the other people here, I’d have preferred Sanders got the nomination, not that that was ever likely. It’s just mystification that supposedly left-wing people have the same visceral hatred for her that rwnjs do, and repeat the same smears.

          • Grim 14.2.1.1.1
            12 October 2016 at 3:10 pm

            But you’re the one framing things:
            “supposedly left-wing people”

            so left wing people should give her a free pass?
            is that what left wing is now? blind obedience?

            “same visceral hatred”

            Holding Hillary up to that same scrutiny as Trump doesn’t require hate,
            depicting anyone not supporting Hillary as hate filled, there’s a word for that.

            “repeat the same smears”
            Is Hillary clean?

            The whole phasing of your reply stinks, makes me question your integrity and motives, I don’t trust you.

            • In Vino 14.2.1.1.1.1
              12 October 2016 at 4:22 pm

              +1 Grim

            • swordfish 14.2.1.1.1.2
              12 October 2016 at 4:38 pm

              Yeah, the emotionally-distraught, nostril-flaring hysteria of Hillary apologists over recent weeks has been something to behold:

              Clinton critics here have simply highlighted her uber-Hawkish/Neo-Con foreign policy stance (both before and especially during her stint as Sec of State) as well as the degree to which she is deeply compromised and embedded within the Corporate Status-Quo.

              Tragically, this appears to have shocked some of our more naïve innocents-abroad into a wild hyperbolic frenzy, throwing verbal punches like drunken sailors and, in PMs case, accusing Clinton critics of exhibiting “visceral hatred” towards his idol.

              One or two, after scratching their heads for quite some time in a highly bewildered fashion, can only explain the critique of Clinton’s abysmal record by recourse to the concept of misogyny.

              Others seem to see it all as some sort of diabolical conspiracy devised between the Left and Right fringes against a deeply-wronged woman with an exemplary record, while TheExtremist (at 20) takes a more magnanimous line, helpfully pointing out that we’re probably mistaken to see her as “the anti-Christ”.

              Fear of Cognitive Dissonance seems to underpin all of this outrageously over-the-top delirium.

              • swordfish …
                12 October 2016 at 4:52 pm

                Awwwww, that was my one and only troll-like comment for the day and I haven’t even managed to get a bite yet. You’re no fun, you lot.

                • McFlock …
                  12 October 2016 at 4:55 pm

                  lol typing takes time

                • weka …
                  12 October 2016 at 5:24 pm

                  Best apology I’ve seen is this,

                  Malcolm Tucker ‏@Tucker5law 2h2 hours ago

                  To clarify, I’m ‘for’ #Clinton in the same way that I’m ‘for’ wiping up cat sick. The alternative is fucking unthinkable so hold your nose.

                  Besides, the people I know in the US who will vote Clinton because they have to, have a better anti-capitalist analysis and activism than much of what I see here (although to be fair, most of what I see here comes from CV and Chooky, so it’s not going to be hard to beat ).

                  The whole if you challenge pro-Trumpesque attacks on Clinton you must support Clinton is some of the laziest, dishonest debate I’ve seen on ts. Kind of weird seeing you indulge in that.

                  • One Two …
                    12 October 2016 at 5:37 pm

                    Swordfish is accurate with that assessment

                    It’s not indulging, it was pointing out the attitudes and events surrounding the on-going electoral discussions on this site

                    You managed only to point to CV and Chooky, when there are many others who have been at eachothers necks over this

                    Agendas….They’re all valid but they’re seldom honest!

                    • weka …
                      12 October 2016 at 6:07 pm

                      Any analysis that lumps all of Clintons critiques on ts into a single group and says they were ‘simply’ doing something is bogus. Pity SF started with that, and given that CV has been pushing an agenda pretty hard that is anything but a simple analysis of warmongering and status quo, my response to them stands. This is the dishonest bit, where people feel the need to make out x or y. We could instead have had some debate that took us somewhere useful.

                      CV puts up a post saying that lots of people still support Trump because they’re disenfranchised by neoliberalism and often makes out that lefties (see, another prejudicial and unhelpful lumping of people) are stupid. Well duh to the first bit, it’s not rocket science, and the second bit is just stupid (but Trumpish).

                      But you are right, I’ve stayed out of it for the most part in the past few month or so, because I find the way the debate is being conducted unhelpful. I’m more interested in US anti-capitalist American activists and what their take is and why their fear of Trump far outstrips their fear of Clinton*. Anti-Clinton or Pro-Trump commenters here can make out that those people are [insert simple-minded insult of choice] but that’s just more of the bullshit.

                      The clock is ticking, time we grew up.

                      *and because this apparently needs SPELLING OUT IN BIG FUCKING BOLD, that statement isn’t a statement of support for Clinton, and it doesn’t mean that Trump voters don’t have genuine concerns. FFS.

                    • One Two []
                      12 October 2016 at 10:29 pm

                      Weka, you’re in the wrong place if you’re looking for inspirational debate, IMO

                      There are but a small handfull of commentators that seem to be genuinely interested in posting comments that are anything other than juvenile drivel point scoring

                      That some of the authors engage in the same through articles is in extremely poor taste in my opinion, while being somewhat an insight to the ‘average political enthusiast’

                      Again you single out CV but you fail to do the same to TRP who has an obvious agenda, and not a particularly positive one if the articles are areference point

                      The frustration you carry is understandable, but it’s an anonymous blog site so you get all angles along with ‘professional interference’

                      For sure there is some very good stuff gets written on this site, and there are some thoughtful commentators, but at best the tone will remain static or continue to regress, because that is the level of the ‘average person’

                      We can choose what we like and don’t like, but acceptance should always be neutral either way

                  • miravox …
                    12 October 2016 at 8:16 pm

                    +1 weka.

                    “The whole if you challenge pro-Trumpesque attacks on Clinton you must support Clinton is some of the laziest, dishonest debate I’ve seen on ts. “

                    A big call, but well said.

                • Anne …
                  12 October 2016 at 8:26 pm

                  And a lovely troll it was too swordfish 🙂

                  One or two, after scratching their heads for quite some time in a highly bewildered fashion, can only explain the critique of Clinton’s abysmal record by recourse to the concept of misogyny.

                  Guilty as charged. Well, the first half of the sentence anyway.

                  My conclusion is: the hard hatted from both sides have spoiled their arguments by grossly over-egging them. For my part, the choice boils down to a mentally unstable lout and an establishment robot with a few hawk-like propensities. I have to go with the robot because at least there is a chance that commonsense, integrity and diplomacy will eventually win the day.

                  • Chris …
                    12 October 2016 at 8:45 pm

                    How about going with the lout, taking the chance that he won’t push the button, especially when he’s got *people* around him, and does have moments of lucidity from time to time? The guy’s certainly some kind of “…path”, for sure. He’s a total fucking fruit loop. But he does like talking. My bet is that he’s less of a chance of taking out another country than Clinton is. North Korea, for example. Clinton’s stuck to establishment rules. Trump’s a complete fuck up. But I think he’s less of a risk than Clinton when it comes to unnecessary loss of lives overseas.

              • McFlock …
                12 October 2016 at 4:54 pm

                No, I think what’s surprised me personally is how Clinton “critics” insist on inventing and recycling easily debunked lies about Clinton, be it concerning her career as a lawyer, her career as secretary of state, or the work of the Clinton Foundation (which has a very high rating on the amount of money that goes towards actual good deeds, and from which none of the Clintons receive any funds).

                If Clinton were as bad as all that, you wouldn’t need to invent stuff.

                Whereas Trump’s financial and personal behaviour is well-documented and often broadcast live.

                • One Two …
                  12 October 2016 at 5:03 pm

                  Yeah it’s all ‘invented and debunked’

                  The mental gymnastics of some on this site is so twisted and confused it’s not readily apparant as being personal exposure or simply the words of those with very limited thinking capacity

                  Potentially one and the same

                  • McFlock …
                    13 October 2016 at 12:47 pm

                    +1 on the mental gymnastics – I wrote that Clintonhaters invented easily debunked lies, not that all of it was invented.

                    There are good criticisms of Clinton, some criticisms that frankly might be true but over here we don’t have the information to call it either way, as stuff that I outright think is cynically invented.

                    Solid criticisms: Drone use, especially against US citizens (which adds an extra level of illegality). Although Trump wants to expand it to include innocent relatives.
                    Expansion of SOCOM’s activities throughout the world.
                    Use of the personal server – although it’s not the treason-level error some here seem to suggest. And Trump’s idea of a targeted political prosecution is outrageous.
                    Economic conservatism – although hopefully Sanders put enough of a firecracker under the DNC to shift her a bit. And Trump is much more economically 19th century.

                    Maybe:
                    Whitewater – no idea on the facts, but lawyers be lawyers.
                    How much she knew about WJClinton’s behaviour after the fact. I don’t give a shit about the affairs, including Lewinsky, but there is at least one solid rape allegation against him.

                    Invented:
                    the idea the Clintons had any role in the deaths of any of their assistants over the last 30 years. Vince Foster comes to mind, but ISTR another corpse some conservatives were wanking over.
                    Quid pro quo of state department decisions in return for donations to Clinton Foundation or speaking fees for WJC. In the few instances where that *might* have been a possibility, the state department decisions were in line with previous policy and decisions from other departments. Nobody bribes someone to make the decision they were going to make anyway.
                    HRC “aiding and abetting” WJC in some sort of serial rapist career.
                    Basically anything Trump says.

                    If she was going up against anyone except Trump, the solid and the maybes would be seriously damaging. As it is, even the invented slurs look (at worst) equivalent to a guy who owns a beauty pageant and walks in on 15yo girls getting undressed.

              • Psycho Milt …
                12 October 2016 at 5:13 pm

                …in PMs case, accusing Clinton critics of exhibiting “visceral hatred” towards his idol.

                It sounds like hyperbole, but that’s what it looks like to me when we have people referring to her as Killary, or implying that she’s murdered people who know the real truth about whatever the current right-wing Clinton smear de jeur is, or generally spouting deranged gibberish like “Hillary kickstarted the Syrian war” and “approved … the murder of children.” By American standards she’s a pretty liberal candidate – if you want a candidate left-wingers can be proud of, don’t look to the Democratic Party is all I can say.

                Also, what McFlock said.

              • Chooky …
                12 October 2016 at 7:19 pm

                +100 swordfish…a very sensible comment

            • Psycho Milt 14.2.1.1.1.3
              12 October 2016 at 5:24 pm

              …depicting anyone not supporting Hillary as hate filled, there’s a word for that.

              Most of the “support” for Hillary Clinton on this site is at the not-particularly-enthusiastic level of considering her the lesser of two evils. The only people I’m depicting as hating her are the ones who go on big rants about her, peddling right-wing talking-point smears, or accusing her of starting wars and having children murdered.

              Is Hillary clean?

              I’d be astonished if anyone could make it to the top in US politics and still be described as clean. What matters is whether investigations have ever uncovered anything concrete – they haven’t, and we’re talking about one of the most-investigated people on the planet. If anyone subjected you to that level of investigation for decades, how clean would you be at the end of it?

              • Garibaldi …
                12 October 2016 at 5:44 pm

                Can’t you Clinton fans see how much of a warmonger she is? It beggars belief that you can’t see past all her bullshit.

                • TheExtremist66 …
                  12 October 2016 at 5:47 pm

                  I don’t think anyone here is a Clinton fan. That’s just bullshit you invented. Anti-Trump doesn’t equal pro-Hillary

                  • Wayne …
                    12 October 2016 at 8:05 pm

                    Well I guess anyone who think Hillary uses or has a black op for sarin is hardly going to be a Hillary supporter. But they sure are deluded, and probably think the CIA carried out 9/11.
                    The allegation is simply ridiculous crap. Even the Russians don’t believe it.
                    So no I don’t think Hillary is a crazed war monger, even if the rest of you do.

                    • marty mars …
                      12 October 2016 at 8:16 pm

                      TheExtremist66 says, “I don’t think anyone here is a Clinton fan. That’s just bullshit you invented. Anti-Trump doesn’t equal pro-Hillary”

                      Wayne says, “So no I don’t think Hillary is a crazed war monger, even if the rest of you do.”

                      How do they fit together wayne? Mistake or deliberate because it was pretty basic to understand but I also get that sometimes comments are put in reply to the wrong person – I really hope that is the answer.

                    • Anne …
                      12 October 2016 at 8:46 pm

                      I don’t think Hillary is a crazed war monger, even if the rest of you do.

                      Stupid comment Wayne. I’ve been following the arguments on this site closely and the actual number of individuals describing Clinton in such terms is small – albeit their contributions have been prolific in number. The rest have tried to be fair and measured, and their contributions cannot be described as ridiculous crap even if one doesn’t agree with them.

                • One Two …
                  12 October 2016 at 5:55 pm

                  There is no point trying rationalise it, Garibaldi

                  A number of commentators here are simply not up to an elementary level of logical and critical awareness that might assist them in life, let alone assessment and understanding through innate senses

                  ‘Expecting’ reasonable dissemination from all but a small handul would be unrealistic

                  • weka …
                    12 October 2016 at 6:10 pm

                    See, you’re doing dishonest too. The only way to characterise PM as a Clinton fan is to lie about him. Fuck that for political discourse.

                    “A number of commentators”

                    Generic slurs too. People need to man and woman up and take the fight to who they’re actually talking about

                    • One Two …
                      12 October 2016 at 10:50 pm

                      Weka I notice that you’re big on letting people know when they have taken your comments the wrong way and respond by ‘putting words in your mouth or interpreting your ‘thoughts’ incorrectly

                      That being said I would appreciate if you could explain your above response because you appear to have done that which you pull other up on when you feel that’s happened to you

                      So please explain my ‘ dishonesty’ and where the ‘generic slur’ is anything other than a factual observation

                      FYI. I’m not in ‘a fight’ that is not what I am about. The final comment is low grade projection!

                  • Chooky …
                    12 October 2016 at 7:21 pm

                    +100 One Two and Garibaldi

                • Psycho Milt …
                  12 October 2016 at 6:56 pm

                  Can’t you Clinton fans see how much of a warmonger she is?

                  Which Clinton fans are you addressing? I haven’t seen any enthusiastic Clinton supporters on the Standard.

                  Still, leaving that aside, how much warmongery should these hypothetical Clinton fans be recognising in her? Is it more or less than previous US presidents? Unless the answer’s “More by shitloads!”, it comes under the heading of “Meh.”

                  If you’re labouring under the delusion that a Democratic Party candidate for PotUS must be left-wing, please cease your labours. If they were, they wouldn’t be the candidate (for a recent example, see Bernie Sanders).

  15. Chooky 15
    12 October 2016 at 12:14 pm

    A revolution to democratise and transform the modern economy?

    In the Keiser Report (second half) is a catch up with Kim Dotcom. In this discussion Kim Dotcom gives an update on his copyright court case which is going well for him

    … and discusses his potentially revolutionary Bitcache and Mega Upload 2

    …which will utilise and promote Bitcoin and make it easier for creative people to get some remuneration directly for their work

    Episode 978

    https://www.rt.com/shows/keiser-report/362334-uk-economy-bitcache-banks/

    …”In the second half, Max talks to Kim Dotcom about Bitcache, a company for which he is an evangelist. They discuss bitcoin, bittorrents and copyright cartels”.

  16. Murray Simmonds 16
    12 October 2016 at 12:14 pm

    Y’all gotta see this:

    Trump and Clinton duetting “I’ve had the time of my life” . . . . As ZH notes . . .”It may well be the best thing to come out of Tuesday’s debate . . .”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB2zoidUeLU&feature=youtu.be

    Absolutely hillarious. Especially if you watched the actual “debate”.

    (But the site may be overloaded at the moment . . . .)

    • Chooky 16.1
      12 October 2016 at 12:21 pm

      lol…yes well worth watching!

      • Pasupial 16.1.1
        12 October 2016 at 2:15 pm

        I had that damn tune squirming around in my mind all day after watching that the other day (though it was indeed worth it). Be warned!

    • james 16.2
      12 October 2016 at 4:35 pm

      “(But the site may be overloaded at the moment . . . .)”

      Im pretty sure Youtube has enough bandwidth that you dont need to worry.

  17. Takere 17
    12 October 2016 at 12:15 pm

    Anne “safe pair of hands do nothing” Tolleys answer to poverty is to load the poor up with more debt by offering them loans for essential items which use to be provided by MSD/WINZ, is now going to be privatised.

    https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/42-million-community-finance-boost-benefit-more-low-income-earners

    Maybe the cunning plan for doing this is, it will impoverish them so much that they’ll just have to abandoned their home because they’ll not be able to afford to pay the rent! Then they’ll remove them from the benefit & Stat’s, which will improve the govt. unemployment data?!

    The dismantling of the Social Contract with the NZ Government is and has been underway for sometime. First they dis-empowered the Social Welfare Act by stripping pretty much every entitlement from the Act and placing rediculous conditions in place as well as restricting a persons “Right” to support from the State to bare minimums. Less than an ordinary citizens ability to provide for themselves & family members.

    This government has to go this time next year or sooner!

  18. McFlock 18
    12 October 2016 at 1:55 pm

    Interesting/worrying article that claims Trump is a fascist. No, really, literally a fascist. Goes through a 14 point checklist.

    Also throws passing knocks to Clinton and the current US situation, but focusses on Trump.

  19. Pasupial 19
    12 October 2016 at 2:10 pm

    Indigenous Peoples Day (or “Columbus Day” if you prefer to idolise genocidal slavers) in the USA:

    Reno police are investigating reports of a pickup truck plowing into a group of Native American rights demonstrators after dramatic video emerged showing the vehicle’s occupants arguing with activists, revving the engine and then speeding into the crowd… A 59-year-old woman has been hospitalized with injuries that are not life-threatening, and three others were hurt…

    “They drove by once as we were walking toward the arch, yelling obscenities,” said Taylor Wayman, 27, who said he was not an official member of the sponsoring groups but decided to attend the rally.

    “I heard the driver ask one of the protesters, ‘Do you want me to kill your homies?’ and that really set everybody off,”…

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/oct/11/native-american-rights-protesters-hit-by-truck-nevada

    In the course of the demonstrations against the Dakota Access Pipeline — which law enforcement termed a “riot” — 27 people, including “Divergent” actress Shailene Woodley, were arrested…

    Authorities were notified about 7:15 a.m. that two protesters had attached themselves to construction equipment about 2 miles southwest of St. Anthony, Keller said. Protesters said they took off from the camps to demonstrate after a prayer at 6:30 a.m. They filed out of the demonstration site with the teepee around noon.

    Highway 6 near St. Anthony, south of Mandan, was closed temporarily in response to the situation… With the closure of Highway 6 and possible closure of 1806, Cannon Ball Elementary School and Solen High School along with schools in Fort Yates and Standing Rock sent students and teachers home over the noon hour. Little Heart School in St. Anthony was on lockdown.

    http://bismarcktribune.com/news/state-and-regional/arrests-made-at-st-anthony-protest-sites/article_ba8d2aab-cf9c-5fa1-a268-46661bb51966.html

    • Grim 19.1
      12 October 2016 at 2:45 pm

      I support the protesters but…
      it was the agitators among the protesters that escalated and began the threatening language, banging on the vehicle and threatening to drag the driver out and “fuck him up”
      so media being dicks and reporting one side once again, the drive was a dick but the protesters turned it into a situation.
      longer video close up of the exchange, idiots on both side, hate crime my ass, Self indulgent arrogant wankers who place their rights above others, I’m talking about both parties.
      https://twitter.com/i/web/status/785798504534814722

      • Pasupial 19.1.1
        12 October 2016 at 5:35 pm

        Grim – you; “support the protesters but” then immediately blame them proking for the vehicular assault? Your proof for this is a link to a twitter account that posts a truncated portion of video alongside the comment (by someone who thinks Mel Gibson’s image lends his ramblings the precise air of class he deserves):

        “ill tear you out of your car you little fuck”
        Based shitlord then proceeds to run over Columbus Day protestors. 😂👏
        #ColumbusDay

        However, I can access online video too, and this 4:31s video puts the lie to your Very Australian Mate’s words. You can clearly see the white ute drive by at 0:14s “yelling obscenities,” exactly as Taylor Wayman said. They do not reappear again until the 2:50s mark – that is demonstrable premediatation.

        https://www.facebook.com/100010016970938/videos/349103885433508/

        Now I can’t hear them over the revving of the motor, but I’ll take Wayman’s word for it that the driver did say; “Do you want me to kill your homies?” I think we can all see why that “really set everybody off,”. Homicidal jerks around toddlers do tend to provoke a violent response in those being threatened.

        • Grim 19.1.1.1
          13 October 2016 at 2:24 am

          Did the “protester” that leaned into the truck threaten the driver? yes or not?

          was the “protester” in question a part of the actual protest?

          Read what I wrote and don’t be so quick to defend the innocents, your white knight mentality is interfering with reason, and as I said

          “Self indulgent arrogant wankers who place their rights above others, I’m talking about both parties.”

          Both parties, I wasn’t attacking one side but both for their shared stupidity.

          Did you watch the video I linked? if you did you would have clearly heard the driver being threatened, in your video did the protesters bang on the truck in a violent manner? you are being dishonest.

          Here is a simple question, if you can’t answer it don’t reply

          q: did the truck come to a full stop and after it stopped did the protesters threaten the occupants lives?

          (hint re-watch the video I linked with the sound turned on then you will hear:
          when one protest is shouting “do you want to fight me” and the other protester shouts “I’ll fuck you up” repeatedly, guy in the brown jacket then another shouts “I’ll tear you outa that car you little fuck” ) about the same time someone on a megaphone is telling the others to hold their ground.

          Now if you re read what I wrote, I am anti pipeline, but question wether the agitator or “agent provocateur” was a member of the actual protest, was it so important to block one lonely truck? no, the only impact stopping one truck with 2 young idiots would have is if you turn it into an incident, are your fine with that tactic, endangering lifes because the end justifies the means, it stinks of manipulation, which is dishonest, but your ok with that are you?

          • Pasupial 19.1.1.1.1
            13 October 2016 at 7:59 am

            I watched the 59s clip on the Very Australian Man’s twitter account. I am not impressed by your argument. This was premeditated vehicular assault as you’ll see if you bother to watch the 3:41s video I to which I linked.

            Those around the white ute were indeed acting aggressively – but I would argue that was in response to a threat on their own and children’s lives. Wayman seems credible when he says; “I heard the driver ask one of the protesters, ‘Do you want me to kill your homies?’ and that really set everybody off,”…

            Who intentionally drove a tonne-plus vehicle into a crowd that included children?
            Who ended up in hospital?

            • Grim 19.1.1.1.1.1
              13 October 2016 at 11:42 am

              Didn’t answer the question did you?

              so what makes Wayman sound credible? he is not a member of the protest organization, an unaccountable individual with no history, or references.

              At what time did the driver threaten to kill?

              ‘Do you want me to kill your homies?

              that sounds like a reply to something already said, think about it. use some logic.

              The only “witness saying that the driver threatened the protesters and this set off everyone… hmm if it set off everyone surely other protesters, and not just some random guy that turned up on the day who is not really part of the group… anybody from the actual organisation hear it, they must have if it really set them off and “justified” their behavour?

              but no, we have 2 videos released showing opposing views, both must have come from the protesters, and supposed protesters, why release the conflicting videos? Tell me… what traction in social media would this protest on a deserted street have had if this incident wasn’t created? zero would you have posted a clip of a failed protest that had zero impact? no

              Could you help me here is “I will fuck you up” escalating or deescalating language?

              • Pasupial …
                13 October 2016 at 12:27 pm

                To repeat myself from yesterday:

                You can clearly see the white ute drive by at 0:14s “yelling obscenities,” exactly as Taylor Wayman said. They do not reappear again until the 2:50s mark – that is demonstrable premediatation.

                The two videos do not show; “opposing views”, they were taken from different cameras and show different angles of the same events. Sure; “I will fuck you up”, is; “escalating language”. However, the protestors did not; ” block one lonely truck”, the driver of this vehicle actively sought out this confrontation.

                I take it this is the question that you think I did not answer (or at least not in a way you could comprehend); “did the truck come to a full stop and after it stopped did the protesters threaten the occupants lives? “. I do not believe that it is accurate to say that the vehicle came; “to a full stop”. But if you want to test that then; next time you drive up alongside a police car at an intersection, rev your motor repeatedly and lurch forward several times into the pedestrian crossing and see what their opinion is of your driving (warning – do not actually do this!).

                The remainder of your question is already answered this morning by my linking to the 3:41s video, and the statement: “Those around the white ute were indeed acting aggressively – but I would argue that was in response to a threat on their own and children’s lives”.

                But while we’re on the topic of not answering question, let me repeat mine:

                Who intentionally drove a tonne-plus vehicle into a crowd that included children?
                Who ended up in hospital?

                Here’s a hint:

                Renown Regional Medical Center listed the 59-year-old woman sent to the hospital after the incident as “serious” Tuesday afternoon.

                According to Renown’s website, serious is described as, “Vital signs may be unstable or outside normal limits. The patient is acutely ill or injured and may have major complications.”

                Kitty Colbert was posting Monday night on Facebook that she is in “good spirits.”

                Reno Police Chief Jason Soto said at a Tuesday press conference that five people – the driver, his passenger and three people from the scene were evaluated by medics. Colbert was sent to the hospital with non-life threatening injuries to her lower extremities…

                “I assure you all that I am in good spirits and although sore and definitely broken, I will bounce back! It will take more than attempted vehicular homicide to keep me down! My grandchildren are fine. I hate that they had to see that, but at the same time, glad they were witness to how ugly this world can be…and that this fight is important.”

                http://www.rgj.com/story/news/crime/2016/10/10/driver-plows-through-reno-protesters-under-arch/91883894/

                • Grim …
                  13 October 2016 at 1:29 pm

                  They did stop one lonely truck, any other vehicles on the road? no

                  what is the likely payoff from stopping a couple of idiots out for an evening drive? could be meth-heads or drunk, they have already indicated they are dicks

                  The smart thing to do would have been to deescalate the situation and give them some literature and allow them to pass, could have won over new supporters, did they act smart? no,

                  you may notice the people escalating the situation were safely beside the truck, not the real protesters.

                  Would I have placed loved ones in harms way? especially when there is no gain,
                  what were they thinking?

                  A sailboat may have right of way over an oil tanker, doesn’t make it smart to wear your righteousness as a shield and expect the tanker to stop for you.

                  You are so damned intent on defending and being the hero you fail to understand what I wrote, and have repeatedly tried to paint me as a villain to justify your attempts at being the true hero, grow up.

                  • Pasupial …
                    13 October 2016 at 1:49 pm

                    So no answer to my questions then? Another one is, what do you consider a; “real protester”, to be?

                    According to Soto, the protesters did not obtain a permit from the city of Reno. Permits are required when shutting down streets in order to pay for extra police…

                    Online videos shared on social media show the group demonstrating on a crosswalk under the Reno Arch for several minutes. The group assembled under the arch to take a photo, according to protester Quanah Brightman, who is also the executive director of United Native Americans Inc. in San Francisco. Brightman said he came to participate with the protest but is now working on the aftermath.

                    Videos then show a driver in a white Nissan pickup approach the protesters on the crosswalk and rev the engine three times. Some participants fled the crosswalk, while a small group of protesters surrounded the truck. The incident sparked an exchange in heated words between the driver and the protesters. The driver than plowed through the group, injuring Colbert and hitting others, including Tara Tran…

                    The protest was organized by the American Indian Movement of Northern Nevada, according the event’s Facebook page. AIMNN organizers could not be reached for comment…

                    “He had the choice to go around either direction on the street, and he deliberately plowed right through us, and I got run over,” Colbert said in the video. “I got run over, and now I have several pelvic fractures, a sacral fracture and one in my hips as well, a small fracture.”

                    In the video, Brightman asks Colbert, “What do you want the Reno Police Department to do about what happened?”

                    She responds: “I want them to arrest this guy. I mean, I know the guy in the passenger seat didn’t press the gas pedal, but the guy that was driving needs to be arrested. I feel that this was attempted vehicular homicide.”

                    “He could’ve killed me, and he didn’t care,” she continued. “He didn’t care that there were babies out there. He didn’t care that there were youth, and children and elders. He just didn’t care.”…

                    A protest against the decision to not make an arrest started Tuesday evening at the Reno Police Station. A Facebook group called “Stand for Injustice” organized it.

                    Police were still investigating the video evidence captured Monday evening.

                    Brightman, reverend Norris Dupree, Bishop Luther DuPree Jr. and NAACP President Patricia Gallimore lead conversation, prayer and another march to Reno City Hall.

                    “Any time anyone tells you we were in the way, you know it’s not true,” said Tara Tran, in tears. “They were there to attack us and this was a hate crime.”

                    Tran said the white Nissan also hit her.

                    The demonstrators asked for the police to arrest the drivers, saying that at the least the incident was a hit and run.

                    http://www.rgj.com/story/news/crime/2016/10/11/update-reno-arch-incident/91903256/

                    You are very quick to judgement on my motivations for posting, but I would remind you that you are responding to my comment and not the other way around. I have made no claims to me being a hero, nor you a villain (though I might make that claim about the Very Australian Man twitter account to which you linked).

                    Anyway, this thread has been giving me the venue to keep updating the situation for those interested without obtruding on today’s OM. I’m willing to keep it going as long as you are.

                    • Grim …
                      13 October 2016 at 2:08 pm

                      what do you consider a; “real protester”, to be?
                      A:
                      A member of the organization holding the protest,
                      How do we know Taylor Wayman is not an agent provocateur planted there to make the protesters look bad? or have another agenda?

                      Yes the truck guys did shout out obscenities, that is clearly heard in one of the videos, what is not heard is the threat to kill homies, or any mention of when exactly it was said, I find this strange as the incident was captured from at least to angles with good audio, when it suited.

                      So somehow the escalating language is not audible even though it set everybody off?

                      And the only witness mentioning the threat is not accountable and his actions don’t reflect directly on the organization, as he was a guy that just decided to turn up.

                    • Pasupial …
                      13 October 2016 at 2:47 pm

                      Contrariwise:
                      How do we know Taylor Wayman is not an alien shapeshifter planted there to mindcontrol the encounter? or have another agenda?

                      The answer to both questions is that; we consider the evidence. You have your opinion that these were not “real protesters”, and that they were somehow asking for it. I do not agree.

                      Let’s take your example of; “A sailboat may have right of way over an oil tanker, doesn’t make it smart to wear your righteousness as a shield and expect the tanker to stop for you”. If a protestor were to be picketing an oil operation and were run down in violation of the law, would you expect the relevant authorities to charge the captain of the oil tanker for that crime?

                      I don’t know how many protests you’ve attended. But in my experience; the most successful are those which inspire people who were not previously affiliated with the organisation to join in. We didn’t always get permission to protest either. It is the act of protesting that makes one a protester, not the documentation one possesses.

                      While we’re on the topic, I’d just like to point out that I think that the need to pay for permits to protest is a form of suppression of expression. I don’t much like the idea of free-speech zones and kettling either.

                      the protesters did not obtain a permit from the city of Reno. Permits are required when shutting down streets in order to pay for extra police. He would not speak to whether charges were made against the driver or passenger.

                      “There is certainly a law in place for protesters,” Soto said at Tuesday’s news conference. “If you want to protest on the sidewalk, there’s no law against that, so you can protest on the sidewalk all day long. Once you congregate in the street, there is a law for unlawful assembly.”

                      http://www.rgj.com/story/news/crime/2016/10/11/update-reno-arch-incident/91903256/

                      In this case it might have been appropriate for police to warn protestors off the road, and arrest those who didn’t comply (and face having the images of that put online – which might have been the intention). It is not appropriate for vigilante hoons to blatantly disregard the law and drive straight into the protestors having themselves deliberately chosen to provoke the confrontation.

                      It’s not like this is the only group ever to block the archway during a protest. Their error seems to be that there wasn’t enough of them – so thugs thought they could be intimidated with impunity. Look at this Black Lives Matter protest from July for contrast:

                      http://www.rgj.com/story/news/2016/07/15/black-lives-matter-marchers-gather-unr/87158418/

    • weka 19.2
      12 October 2016 at 2:48 pm

      good on Woodley. She apparently shouted out to the MSM when she was being arrested. Maybe they’ll take notice of a Hollywood star.

      Here’s the vid, long, 4million views so far. “the riot police are arriving”

      https://www.facebook.com/ShaileneWoodley/videos/624178791076838/

      Background to this is that the court declined the Standing Rock injunction on the pipeline and released it on the eve of Indigenous Peoples’ Day.

      Good news is that the federal authorities soon afterwards reiterated that they continue to oppose the pipeline passing under the lake. Very interesting approach in their statement,

      One day after the U.S Court of Appeals in Washington, D.C. ruled against the injunction filed by the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe to halt the Dakota Access pipeline, three federal agencies once again called upon “the pipeline company voluntarily pause all construction activity within 20 miles east or west of Lake Oahe.”

      1806The Department of Justice, the Department of the Army and the Department of the Interior on Monday issued the following statement regarding the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals’ decision in Standing Rock Sioux Tribe v. U.S. Army Corps of Engineers:

      “We appreciate the D.C. Circuit’s opinion.

      “We continue to respect the right to peaceful protest and expect people to obey the law.

      “The Army continues to review issues raised by the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe and other Tribal nations and their members and hopes to conclude its ongoing review soon. In the interim, the Army will not authorize constructing the Dakota Access Pipeline on Corps land bordering or under Lake Oahe. We repeat our request that the pipeline company voluntarily pause all construction activity within 20 miles east or west of Lake Oahe.

      “We also look forward to a serious discussion during a series of consultations, starting with a listening session in Phoenix on Tuesday, on whether there should be nationwide reform on the Tribal consultation process for these types of infrastructure projects.”

      http://nativenewsonline.net/currents/after-court-decision-feds-still-want-pause-in-dapl-construction/

  20. TheExtremist 20
    12 October 2016 at 3:46 pm

    And another Clinton scandal falls away in the sunlight:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/scandal-wikileaks-reveals-hillary-clinton-to-be–reasonable/2016/10/10/bbad509c-8f19-11e6-9c52-0b10449e33c4_story.html?postshare=2481476188001767&tid=ss_fb&utm_term=.6a67d7ed8dcb

    Look, I don’t like her either. In fact, I can’t stand the woman and would have loved to see Bernie leading the way but conspiracy and invective isn’t going to change the fact she will more than likely become president and probably isn’t the anti-christ.

    • Gangnam Style 21.1
      12 October 2016 at 6:14 pm

      Good luck to him, hope he manages what he sets out to do, will be watching him with interest.

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