No country is immune from this kind of politics. After the 2020 election in New Zealand, for instance, when Labour won an absolute majority, the government engaged in unilateral decision-making that accentuated existing social cleavages – central vs local government, rural vs urban communities and Māori vs other New Zealanders, for instance.
In their turn, other political agents played upon these divisions. One can see this in the virulent social media and other attacks upon a once popular Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern, fuelled by male-female and urban-rural polarities (in elements of the Groundswell campaign, for instance), or ‘Iwi vs Kiwi’ polarities in relation to Te Tiriti.
Cui bono?
In a process described by scholars as pernicious polarisation, self-interested elites generate Us and Them perceptions by deliberately activating, exploiting or distorting latent social cleavages.
And who dosnt?
In our small, intimate society, we would be wise to hold fast to mutual goodwill and a sense of decency, recognise genuine grievances and do our utmost to address them, and look for the best in each other.
As I learned in 1993, when countries fly apart, there are no safe places to hide.
Dame Anne Salmond imparts some well founded fears.
A valid concern for sure, but I suspect alarmism works better when made more specific: generalities wash over readers, giving them no more than a vague sense of something wrong somewhere.
Ordinary citizens also need to be astute, and recognise when they are being played by self-interested political agents, whether domestic or international.
Ordinary citizens have never been astute. Nor can one blame them for being sheeple. It's innate human nature creating masses & driving democracy. Dame Anne fingers the causal agency: self-interested elites. Yet social norms produce these groups. They are a functional part of the body politic, since forever. A social reformer would have to specify a technical improvement to the design of democracy to eliminate the problem. Liberals merely complain & expect someone else to do something about it. Not fair to put her in that category though:
deliberate strengthening of the middle ground through bi-partisan policymaking, wide civic engagement and well-moderated, inclusive conversations about divisive matters, in citizens’ assemblies, for example.
There's no shortage of divisive issues in Aotearoa: euthanasia, cannabis, Covid-19 mandates and, most recently, issues raised over the Treaty of Waitangi are among the latest hot-button topics. But New Zealand has been slow to join the citizens' assembly party – the first few have only been carried out at a local council level this year.
Earlier this year, a group of eminent scientists at Auckland University warned Aotearoa's social cohesion is "straining at the seams". The looming general election would only highlight the country's "political fault lines", the researchers at the Koi Tū Centre for Informed Futures wrote in a paper, as we experienced increased polarisation fuelled by distrust in institutions, government and increased mis and disinformation.
Could be we're in a weather lull before another winter of discontent. Would make sense for some enterprising politician to demonstrate leadership, recruit a few relevant professors to co-design a collaborative public assembly. Would also need professional organisers to incorporate suitable guidelines & conditions to manage group process productively – sideline fringe nutters & screwballs who disrespect rules. https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/01/13/dame-anne-salmond-how-to-split-a-society/
Pragmatic folk will just wait to see what kind of shit emanates from the new govt & how much of each kind. However I share your cynicism re centrist do-gooders.
I don't see her alarmism as unworthy – I prefer better direction. Perpetuating malaise is poor public service so we need a proactive stance. Call me naive but I do have faith in the wisdom of the crowd. Just needs to be catalysed…
Identity politics seeks to divide us based on race, ethnicity, sexual orientation etc.
One issue I would disagree with AS about is the coalition and women. Peters made part of his election campaign protecting women's spaces , eg public bathrooms and change rooms, while providing alternatives for transgender people. He also got across the line the protection of the women's sports category.
Unfortunately Anker, rational thought is the first thing to disappear when the pressure goes on,,,and there is no doubt the pressure is on…as AS noted with her experience in Bosnia.
How the world works is complicated enough without adding the stressor of increasingly restricted resources….it makes for bad decision making and easy (and erroneous) targets….weve had both of late.
An inspection has found the worm farm operation to be non-compliant with resource consent conditions. “The whole town’s had a gutsful,” Burrell said. “I was talking to a young woman who was pregnant down at the supermarket, and she was dry-retching."
When worthy Green enterprises make locals want to throw up, we got a problem needing a solution.
He had been told the worm farm did not require public notification or consultation. “They don’t need to consult the public. That’s where it fails right there. We don’t even get to put in a submission in regards to having a s*** farm anywhere near our town. We don’t even have a say in it. It’s just a real slap in the face,” Burrell said.
Blame the Labour/Green govt for slack law-making? The report gives us no apparent basis for doing so – seems like Sir Geoffrey's old RMA did it, but don't blame him. That prescription designed in compliance methodology…
The regional council’s acting compliance manager, Trudy Richards, said a compliance officer visited the site on Tuesday and found it to be non-compliant with its resource consent for discharges to air. “The officer found uncovered windrows that were likely generating odours and confirmed non-compliance,” Richards said. “We are working with site staff to improve their management practices and odour mitigation in accordance with the resource consent, and further compliance action is being considered.”
No Enforcement Commissar?? The problem's been happening long enough:
Burrell said the smell had been noticeable in town for years. "This has been going on too long. It’s more prevalent when you’re closer to it, obviously, …whenever the wind comes through town it’s pretty fierce… Enough already. How much more do they want us to tolerate?”
The enforcement is through the Environment Court. However, as it is expensive to take such cases, Councils will only use the Ratepayers $$$$$ to do it as a last resort.
Quite clever neolib design, eh? Polarise locals against local authorities. Escalate hostility on purpose so as to breed subversive ethos amongst sheeple. I could almost applaud the sleight of hand, if yawning weren't a better option…
"Lira’s father, Gonzalo Lira Sr., provided a statement on his son’s death to The Grayzone, saying, “I cannot accept the way my son has died. He was tortured, extorted, and incommunicado for 8 months and 11 days, and the US Embassy did nothing to help my son"
In fact, Adrian, "the West" (i.e. Washington and London) are not defending Ukraine at all, they're supplying them with arms and insisting they keep sacrificing young men in this doomed proxy war. Zelensky was about to sue for peace in March 2022; that democratic champion Boris Johnson was despatched to Kiev to browbeat him out of such foolish behaviour.
The rest is blood-stained, and U.S./U.K.-funded, history.
The Ukrainian side says that the discovery of mass russian war crimes against civilians in occupied territories made all negotiations null and void.
According to a May report from Ukrainska Pravda, the Russian side was ready for a meeting between Zelenskyy and Putin, but it later came to a halt after the discovery of War crimes in the Russian invasion of Ukraine, in particular the Bucha massacre.
The Ukrainians know that abandoning your citizens to russian torturers and murderers is immoral, and such peace deals only give russia time to prepare for their next invasion.
Trump card to be played: "This All-American Hero died because Biden refused to help him. I would have sent a squad in to rescue, told the clown it was a goer & dared him to get in the way. Rambo 1.01!
But what the hell was this guy meant to be doing in there anyway?? Being pro-Russian makes him seem a fool in the wrong place, but maybe there's more to it.
"But what the hell was this guy meant to be doing in there anyway??"…oh I don't know…being a war reporter in a supposed western backed democracy…..but then as we know, the West have no interest in democracies…and Ukraine sure as hell isn't one.
the West have no interest in democracies…and Ukraine sure as hell isn't one.
Ukraine has free and open elections, with vigorous opposition and a free press. Zelenskyy and other government officials are widely criticised and discussed in the Ukrainian media. Ukraine has changed government and president at almost every election since they left the USSR.
Russia on the other hand imprisons, outlaws or murders all political opponents, imprisons people for 7 years for writing "no war" on supermarket labels, and has the one tsar returning again and again after every presidential election….There is no free media whatsoever tolerated within russia.
He’s also gained a slew of new followers—his Telegram has about 45,000 followers, up from 20,000 on March 1, and seems to be gaining hundreds more every day. Many people seem to view him as a valuable source, and have taken to signal-boosting his content.
But his “fair-and-balanced” accounts often involve wild claims
Having myself attempted fair & balanced stances accompanied by wild claims I'm tempted to sympathise. No reason to off him but looks like locals weren't inclined to tolerate his input.
Rather a gross generalisation. Might have to pursue the search diligently awhile, but I'm confident one could eventually identify a few exceptions to that rule!
Like who, Dennis? Name one "journalist" at the BBC or the New York Times or CNN or Radio New Zealand that is an exception to that rule.
I can name one: Phil Pennington at RNZ. The rest are mere stenographers at best, and (in the case of the failing New York Times and CNN) shills for genocide.
Hmm. I suspect you have in mind those who cover international stories while my comment was general. Re RNZ, there's insufficient persona attached to the names to impact upon me, so I can only cite the general impression I get – that they try diligently to cover the public interest aspects to any story & mostly do a reasonable job.
Ever since its website put a tabloid front up I haven't taken the BBC seriously enough to focus on any of their crew & likewise the US news media although I did like Matt Taibbi's style a few years back (vampire squid on Wall St). A few who started in the TVNZ newsroom when I was there are exceptions – Simon Mercep, for instance, always had the right attitude & instincts. At TV3 Gower did ok & some others too…
Thanks, I'm okay with getting my resilience tested. Have been feeling my age noticeably more in recent years. Your question was worthwhile. I'm always interested in the interplay between a journo's professionalism & conscience. When a formula political story is the day's task, hewing to conventional diagnosis is the norm which tests the character of the pro: to clone or not to clone, that is the question…
Firstly, in Ukraine, even under martial law, freedom of speech is respected, and there is no and cannot be any criminal liability for criticizing the president. Therefore, the accusation that Lira or someone else was “jailed for criticizing Zelensky” is an outright manipulation.
Secondly, Gonzalo Lira is accused not of “criticizing Zelensky,” but of justifying Russian aggression against Ukraine (Article 436-2 of the Criminal Code of Ukraine). The investigation found that Lira:
● publicly justified the Russian invasion by claiming that a 'neo-Nazi regime' had allegedly been set up in Ukraine;
● denied the facts of Russian missile strikes on Ukrainian cities, massacres of civilian Ukrainians by Russian invaders in Bucha and other cities;
● in spring 2022, Lira personally filmed the Ukrainian military, tried to expose their faces, and insulted the soldiers. He published the video on YouTube, Telegram, and the-then Twitter.
Thirdly, Gonzalo Lira is currently in custody only because he violated the terms of his bail and tried to escape Ukrainian justice. The blogger was supposed to remain under house arrest in Kharkiv, but he was detained in another part of Ukraine: in Zakarpattia region, where Lira attempted to cross out into Hungary.
It's in the sidebar but worth emphasising due to subject matter – plus his usual humour. I used to know 'the scarecrow' well. I doubt she will mind coming from Nick Korero. Its not Jacinda btw.
I agree with his analysis of the Herald newspaper. They are sinking into the gutter.
Chris Trotter wades into the culture wars today, and argues that Prime Minister Christopher Luxon should too, highlighting the latest transgender free speech battle in his column today: “An elderly woman, wearing a T-shirt testifying to the reality of biological sex differences – ‘Men aren’t women, even if you squint’ – incurred the wrath of a transgender member of the Ōtaki New World staff, who allegedly prevailed upon the supermarket manager to eject the elderly shopper and have her trespassed from the only supermarket in the small Kāpiti Coast town” – see: When something’s not quite right (paywalled)
Trotter argues that it’s the sort of incident that the populist PM Rob Muldoon would have jumped into, and that by contrast, although Luxon was elected on a populist wave he is yet to act in a populist manner on such issues.
This is how Trotter believes Luxon should have responded to the Ōtaki New World culture war issue: “While reaffirming that all citizens, regardless of their station in life, are entitled to be treated with courtesy and respect, Luxon should also reaffirm emphatically the individual’s right to give voice to their opinions – or have them printed on a T-shirt – even if, by doing so, those opinions strike other citizens as wrong and/or offensive.
He should take the opportunity to remind us all that there is no legal right to shut down speech that does not contravene the law. There is no right NOT to be offended.”
Yet the employer, discriminating against the elderly consumer, tacitly concedes that right to the offensive employee. Perhaps trans nazi would be ott?
As for Luxon failing the Trotter populism test, I imagine his reaction: "Culture war in Otaki, eh? Bit of a laugh, what? Not me mate, I'm in holiday mode. No old boomer needs me mouthing off on their behalf. Call in Age Concern or something."
Jeez, talk about in-depth!! Great to see such passionate advocacy but too much for me at the moment (busy) so I just did a scan. I got a sense of activist solidarity which was heartening…
it's badly done activism. If they wanted to do this well, take someone to film it or at least take notes in real time and observe what is happening.
Reading the letter from the NW owner, she didn't get banned for the Tshirt, she got banned for expressing her views to staff (multiple) at different times (multiple). On TS we call that a pattern of behaviour, and it's one of the main reasons we moderate.
To me it looks like Landy was flaming. She was acting in specific ways designed to provoke a reaction. She got one and didn't like it and is now trying to make political capital out of it.
So sure, freedom of expression. But it's possible and likely she crossed over a line into harassment, in which case the owner was within their rights to ban her. That she gave him the excuse to do so is on her. If she had been banned instead for simply wearing a GC t-shirt, now that would have been useful activism.
But we don't really know what happened so unless this goes to court and/or there is CCTV footage released, there's not really any good way to judge.
What I can comment on is that No Debate by liberals and the left mean that GC action in NZ is currently largely done by people that have no commitment to the left or progressive politics. Those people aren't going to to away, but they don't appear to give a shit about the wellbeing of trans people. Own goal from the liberal left.
I did wonder at how she managed the group resonance interface & I suspect your analysis is accurate. As someone often inclined toward passionate advocacy on the past with only a moderate capacity for tolerating different views, I had quite an experiential learning curve – had no real clue about the power of context in those earlier decades. However we all must learn from our activist experiences so I hope she's doing that…
It's interesting you assume it was activism, rather than someone wearing a t-shirt.
It's also of interest that you take the ambiguous statement from New World at face value.
If that is the case, then your interpretation will be unlikely to change.
The possibility that the store employee harassed the customer, with support from the manager is also a possibility. One that would be confirmed or dismissed by release of the CCTV.
"Reading the letter from the NW owner, she didn't get banned for the Tshirt, she got banned for expressing her views to staff (multiple) at different times (multiple). On TS we call that a pattern of behaviour,"
And yet in the post by Molly that sequence of events is disputed….who is correct?…the jounalist or the (close) friend?…it is apparent that pre existing 'beliefs' determine who is to be believed.
My experience of journalism is it is never entirely accurate, sometimes negligently so.
An 'asserted' pattern of behaviour…unverified and disputed.
Of course the woman may have worn the t Shirt on more than one occasion…to her shame.
Obviously she is not a supporter of fast fashion and believes in wearing clothing to its maximum so as not to needlessly trash the environment nor unnecessarily exploit those who produce the garments.
I wear my favourite one as a form of activism. It's the "woman, adult human female" one and I get plenty of positive feedback, nothing negative so far.
While many would prefer "adult female human", making female the subject of the description works as well. The "adult" and "human" become adjectives. Even more clunkily, female human adult would work.
Despite your personal grammatical and lyrical preference, the three interchanging adjectives and subjects provide an accurate and complete definition for woman however they are applied:
Adult – post-puberty (we'll ignore a previous very strange conversation we've had in the past);
Female – sex that produces the large gamete for reproduction purposes;
the tshirt isn't the problem. Although personally I think it's unnecessarily flaming as opposed to something like Adult Human Female, or your one. There's a difference between making statements about our rights as women, and going hard against trans women in the context of transphobia.
If good activism involves getting publicity, then wearing the tee shirt has worked.
Yeah, but there are prices to pay as well. Publicity in and of itself isn't inherently good. I don't particularly blame women for how this is playing out, because our backs have been against the wall. But that doesn't mean there aren't better ways to approach this.
"There's a difference between making statements about our rights as women, and going hard against trans women in the context of transphobia."
Going hard? Transphobia?
And can we have your definition of "transphobia"? Because I am loathe to point out your use of it seems to follow the usual practice of throwing it out in order to smear or derail discussion. I would like to have your definition before making up my mind.
"Publicity in and of itself isn't inherently good. I don't particularly blame women for how this is playing out, because our backs have been against the wall. But that doesn't mean there aren't better ways to approach this."
A woman has been excluded – without provision of evidence of behaviour – from a local foodstore in a small(ish) community. The discussion is whether the response was appropriate, and whether the wearing of such apparel is permitted.
It's interesting you assume it was activism, rather than someone wearing a t-shirt.
It's also of interest that you take the ambiguous statement from New World at face value.
If that is the case, then your interpretation will be unlikely to change.
The possibility that the store employee harassed the customer, with support from the manager is also a possibility. One that would be confirmed or dismissed by release of the CCTV.
sounds like you are making fair few assumptions yourself (including about my position and views).
I am def doubtful that the tshirt alone was the issue. From having read a number of accounts now it sounds to me like she has been into that store and engaged with that particular staff member a number of times. Her own account is that heated words were exchanged. If you want to wear a tshirt like that and engage with people that the tshirt is designed to confront, then expect situations like this to happen. It's human nature and politics /shrug.
I also agree it's likely that the staff harassed the customer. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
And I agree it's not necessarily activism, although wearing that tshirt in that store is def a political act. I was responding to Dennis' comment, but also watching how it's playing out since, which looks like activism to me. I just think there are problems with doing activism this way. It reminds me of the UK where this kind of activism ends up being what happens because of No Debate. It's effective in its way, but it create problems too.
" …am def doubtful that the tshirt alone was the issue. From having read a number of accounts now it sounds to me like she has been into that store and engaged with that particular staff member a number of times."
… So far, I have read the email from Matthew Mullins as referencing the store's explanation, and the article I have posted which are close to the original sources along with third-party articles in stuff etc.
What other accounts are you referencing?
It is – given that New World is the local store – very likely that she has been into that store and engaged with that particular staff member a number of times. That's commonplace for local customers.
What you imply is that she has deliberately antagonised a staff member without provocation. That is not implicitly claimed, or been proven.
'And I agree it's not necessarily activism, although wearing that tshirt in that store is def a political act."
Buying the t-shirt – if often a political act – as it often supports the organisation that supplies it.
Wearing it, cannot be assumed to be so. And even if it is – it is not an offensive act.
“If you want to wear a tshirt like that and engage with people that the tshirt is designed to confront, then expect situations like this to happen. It’s human nature and politics /shrug.”
A T-shirt “like that”? I’m shaking my head at this comment, weka.
""Buying the t-shirt MAGA hat is often a political act – as it often supports the organisation that supplies it.
Wearing it, cannot be assumed to be so. And even if it is – it is not an offensive act."
fify"
Robert, you "fixed it for you" …
Resorting to implying Trump adjacent perspectives, by the action of wearing a t-shirt.
All good. As long as you gain some satisfaction from this type of comment, why would I want to change you?
But it is unlikely that I will admire you for it, or choose to engage very often.
I'm sure you'll live.
[please stop with the negative personalised comments. They’re unnecessary, and last time there was a major flame war that led to someone being banned. Stick to the politics, thanks – weka]
"Then – did you have a salient point that relates to the conversation?"
Well, yes, I did. To borrow (and adjust slightly) weka's words:
“If you want to wear a hat like that and engage with people that the hat is designed to confront, then expect situations like this to happen. It’s human nature and politics /shrug.”
If Luxon was to wear a MAGA hat (in public – he can do what he wants at home) then your comment,
"Buying the t-shirt – if often a political act – as it often supports the organisation that supplies it.
Wearing it, cannot be assumed to be so. And even if it is – it is not an offensive act." (emphasis mine) sounds wrong, imo.
My experience is that there are some very active GC women who are committed to the left, in fact many of the gains made by SUFW have been made by these women. The HC judgement Whitmore vs the Palmerston North CC and section 79(2) in the BDMRR Act 2021 spring to mind. These women do not wish transgender people any harm at all, they just don't believe that it is possible to change sex.
There are certainly some loud voices coming from the right in terms of GC women and I agree that many of these people do not care about trans people or gay people.
"There are certainly some loud voices coming from the right in terms of GC women and I agree that many of these people do not care about trans people or gay people."
This is an interesting comment.
Are you suggesting this particular woman is right-wing, and does not care for those with gender identities or gay people?
Or do you have some other NZ GC women in mind? Can you provide their names?
I can't think of a right wing gender critical woman in NZ that is homophobic.
I don't believe KJK has expressed homophobic views – OR – any particularly politically right economic perspectives.
The varying understandings of the words "gender critical", "transphobic" and "right-wing" lead to communication difficulties, so I try to avoid them, and only use them now to query the intent of the user so that conversation can move forward.
"Do you dispute that some gender critical women are homophobic and/or dislike trans women?"
That would be a strange position to take, given the undefined group of women who may be called – or refer to themselves – as gender critical. Given the number, I'm sure there are women in there who are guilty of the most heinous crimes, and those that kick dogs. But I haven't been exposed to the homophobia, and I follow a lot of women's rights accounts.
As for the "dislike of trans women"… IF you are aware of the harms of gender ideology, then the tolerance level for men who call themselves women does often diminish.
Given the move away from the already vague DSM-5 diagnosis (https://twitter.com/KnownHeretic/status/1724448571787972885) , the relevance of sex based differences in motivation, intention and impact becomes more important. The likelihood of paraphilias is much higher for men as a motivator, and some women recognise this more than others – whether gender critical or not.
So, I would agree that some women are dismissive of men who call themselves women. I have heard it expressed as akin to people (of all colours) objecting to blackface. It is the idea of blackface that is rejected. Also, when individuals are mentioned, it is usually in reference to a perspective they have expressed, or a boundary violation that has been made. Unfortunately, this is part of the wider discussion and has to be addressed, otherwise we participate in a lesser form of No Debate.
"I have heard it expressed as akin to people (of all colours) objecting to blackface."
That's ridiculous.
People who wear blackface don't yearn to be black, devote their lives to behaving as a "black person", undergo surgery to align physically with a black person, wear their blackface day in and day out, commit to political and social activism to establish credibility as a black person and so on.
The only universal experience of women – is inhabiting a female body.
"People who wear blackface don't yearn to be black, devote their lives to behaving as a "black person", undergo surgery to align physically with a black person, wear their blackface day in and day out, commit to political and social activism to establish credibility as a black person and so on."
All this is selection of regressive stereotypes, and secondary sex characteristics and ASSUMING this is the fundamental aspect of women.
Which is incorrect.
The politicial and social activism is necessary to coerce, shame and bully those who do not indulge in harmful belief systems, where women (and men) are reduced to these secondary characteristics.
People who wear blackface don't yearn to be black, devote their lives to behaving as a "black person", undergo surgery to align physically with a black person, wear their blackface day in and day out, commit to political and social activism to establish credibility as a black person and so on.
and not all trans women yearn to be women, devote their lives to behaving as a "woman", undergo surgery to align physically with a woman, wear their womanface day in and day out, commit to political and social activism to establish credibility as a woman and so on.
In fact, the number of trans women that surgically transition is quite small. Some of that will be access/cost, but I think it's also to do with the degree of disability that goes with surgery (pain and dysfunction). It's also because many trans identified males do in fact want to play at it.
I suspect you are thinking of transsexual males with serious gender dysphoria. The trans umbrella is much broader than that.
In addition there are non-binary males who want to be included in women's space/culture. In the years I have been involved in this debate I've not once seen an explanation for why NB males should have access to women's space and culture.
I don't like the term womanface, and there are good arguments against its use, just not the one you made.
Because what you have just done is such a common dynamic, I'm going to spell it out. Many liberals who have taken a pro-trans politics position against women's rights, have a poor understanding of the politics involved. In this case, the idea that trans women are transexuals with gender dysphoria, rather than understanding that trans now is a very, very broad term, and there is pressure to include all the trans-identified males in the category of women.
When I say that self-ID means any man can say they are a woman at any time and must be accepted as such, this is what I am talking about. It is false to argue that trans-identified males are what you described. What you described is in fact a very small proportion of TIMs.
Further, the reason you don't know this is because of No Debate, and the habitual response of liberal trans allies who simply don't listen to what left wing and other women have been saying for years.
Yes, thanks, weka, I expected a response along the lines of what you've written (well).
"I don't like the term womanface, and there are good arguments against its use, just not the one you made."
Then I defer to those good arguments. I feel the "blackface" comparison is a poor one.
"and not all trans women yearn to be women, devote their lives to behaving as a "woman", undergo surgery to align physically with a woman, wear their womanface day in and day out, commit to political and social activism to establish credibility as a woman and so on."
This is doubtless true; there are always exceptions to a rule 🙂 I was generalising, and knew it.
"In fact, the number of trans women that surgically transition is quite small." That "number" is still greater, I believe, than the number of whites who undergo surgery to become black.
Your question was: "Do you dispute that some gender critical women are homophobic and/or dislike trans women?"
Not a question about MY personal perspective, and I don't usually atttempt to answer in the place of others, but I thought the question was in good faith and attempted to answer it as such. Without excusing or making apology for perspectives that I don't share.
"I don't like the term womanface, and there are good arguments against its use, just not the one you made."
Neither do I, (and again I understand you are talking to Robert here) but I want to be clear that you asked whether I had seen other women do so, and I have. I can understand their perspective without utilising their use. A labour politician has been stood down in the UK for the crime of "liking" a social media post, making this specific reference, so it was close to hand when looking for examples of women who express distaste with men who declare themselves women:
“I don’t like the term womanface, and there are good arguments against its use, just not the one you made.”
Neither do I, but again you asked whether I had seen other women do so, and I have.
Did I? Is there reply confusion happening here? My comment about womanface was a response to RG.
I can understand their perspective without utilising their use.
Same. As with much of the war, including the actions of Landy and the person who wrote the article, I see the… tenor or character of much of the current debate as being a result of No Debate and left wing gender critical feminists in particular being excluded from public discussion.
It’s also a consequence of women being abused and ostracised and having their backs against the wall regarding women’s rights.
So I’m not usually surprised and my criticisms of Landy have been more about strategy as much as anything. But again, we have the Landy sisters doing what they do because the NZ GCFs got taken out of the game.
A labour politician has been stood down in the UK for the crime of “liking” a social media post, making this specific reference, so it was close to hand when looking for examples of women who express distaste with men who declare themselves women:
We can discuss whether this is an appropriate response to a trivial action.
See I think she should have been stood down for political ineptitude (on the face of it, I haven’t looked past your link). If she’s going to be so stupid as to not understand how that tweet would play out politically, she’s a liability to UK Labour. Much the same way as Kerekere became a liability to the Greens, because she couldn’t read the room and her comms were causing problems.
There are ways to push back against gender identity ideology without using hugely problematic tropes like in that tweet.
The standing down because of transphobia causes problems for GC women, who then react against the anti-terfery and ignore the political ineptitude, and that takes us back to the hands we have been dealt and how women will do what they need to irrespective of the damage done along the way.
And of course, it’s entirely possible that the candidate is in fact transphobic. I haven’t had time yet to reply to your comments on that from this morning, but there are a chunk of GC people who simply can’t stand trans women because they can’t stand them. We can see it in the US most obviously with those of the religious right who want transness and gender non-conformity to not exist.
I edited, probably before your reply to make clear my reference was in regards to your question, and that I understood that you were replying to Robert.
"There are ways to push back against gender identity ideology without using hugely problematic tropes like in that tweet."
Problematic is another word I'm avoiding, so I'm guessing we are going to be in disagreement.
I don't use the blackface analogy, because the two instances are not analogous. Not because it is "problematic".
I can both understand the reasoning behind those who choose to use it, and agree that there are examples of men who absolutely do perform their idea of women in a demeaning way.
I can maintain sympathy for people who have difficulty accepting their sex, without colluding with the delusion that it is possible for them to change their sex.
I can also understand the frustration of women who are confronted with men – who are neither distressed or vulnerable – but gleeful about being able to demonstrate their misogyny or paraphilia in society not only without censure, but with full support of those who consider themselves progressive.
So maybe don’t assume my use of ‘problematic’ is the same use you don’t like?
I don’t use the blackface analogy, because the two instances are not analogous. Not because it is “problematic”.
Same. Also, in GC circles (as in all of politics) there is actual racism. Using womanface makes things messy and the current debate is not only incapable of dealing with that, it’s also caused a lot of damage and division.
If this is getting too bogged down then I am happy to let it go.
However, I will make note of the fact that while aware of such women, I am also very aware of men who declare themselves to be women, expressing perspectives that both denigrate and demean women and girls. These men not only are not censured for it, they often receive accolades, financial rewards and positions of authority over women or women's advocacy.
There are many such examples. One recent one was the appointment of Munroe Bergdorf as the UN Champion for women. The comments they have made are mild compared to others but show little awareness about women, and disparagement for women who believe sex recognition matters:
What do you propose should be the consequence of stridency?
When you've cleared that up, will you then address the truth of the first statement, and the disconnection from reality that is required to consider it offensive?
These last three comments from you Robert again speak to your lack of knowledge in the area. It’s kind of like a conventional farmer trying to have a conversation about growing trees without understanding soil microbia.
Let me break it down.
I can see that “hysterical” can be, but “strident”? There’s nothing (that I can see) intrinsic in the word that might trigger anguish.
Must be an insider-thing.
Is “intense” everyday sexism?
The problem isn’t that the words trigger anguish. The problem is that they are used as tools by people, usually men, to put women in their place. That’s the difference between personal insult and politics. In class analysis, biological sex is one of the three axes of oppression (along with race/ethnicity and socio-economic class). Sexism is part of the system of oppression of females on the basis of sex, it’s not something that can be understood primarily through a lens of triggering anguish.
The words aren’t intrinsically sexist, the sexism is in the usage. Calling a poem strident has a different implication than calling a woman strident. Most feminists know the sexist used of the word strident. That you don’t see anything sexist about the word is an indication of your lack of awareness.
Thus, you could have called the post intense and not invoked a sexist trope.
Not really seeing how that’s offensive but accept weka’s advice that it has taken on that quality in some circles (is “circles” okay?)
The sexism isn’t when women take words in a certain manner, it’s when people, usually men, use words in a certain manner.
Again, it’s not about offence taken, or even given, although some people use words to be both sexist and offensive.
The word terf was coined a long time ago by a trans woman. It’s an acronym: trans exclusionary radical feminist. That in and of itself is a relatively neutral albeit somewhat inaccurate descriptor. But since the gender/sex wars of the last decade, it’s been taken up and used by some liberals, trans activists, trans allies (TA), and Men’s Rights Activists, as a term of abuse.
This equating of terf with a woman bigot/nazi/evil doer, was an intentional strategy, widely promoted. It’s also been used to direct violent misogyny at women online, and the TAs and gender identity ideologists have largely sanctioned this. That’s often left wing men, sanctioning online violence against women because they object to the women’s feminist politics
A lot of women reclaimed the word terf, in the same way that black men reclaimed nigger, or gay men reclaimed queer.
Again, the meaning and intend of the usage of the word itself depends on who is using it and how.
There is no consensus on words on TS that I’m aware of. I moderate the word terf as a term of abuse when I see it, but there is no ban on the word itself, which is why today’s use on TS is fine.
You can probably see the same thing with the word nigger. A black man using the term in the rap song is quite different from a KKK member using it a term of abuse towards black people.
"These last three comments from you Robert again speak to your lack of knowledge in the area. It’s kind of like a conventional farmer trying to have a conversation about growing trees without understanding soil microbia."
If your conventional farmer-who-lacked-knowledge-about-soil microbia was discussing trees, I'd regard it as an opportunity to increase her knowledge, for the betterment of all, rather than lambast her for her ignorance. Not saying that's what's happening here, but there's a hint of it in the air…
ok. I’ve seen farmers react to reasonable explanations as if they were being lambasted. Criticism can be hard to take for sure. This is a political blog with an ethos of robust debate. I can change how I communicate more than I already am, but you’d have to give me some clues. I’ve been feeling I have to really spell it out because I’ve observed a fair amount of missing the point from you on this topic. Too blunt?
"Most feminists know the sexist used (sic) of the word strident. "
Do they?
There's certainly no clue in the word itself, as there is with "hysterical".
I guess it's the responsibility of all people who are not feminists, to research words to determine if they are sexist.
"The sexism isn’t when women take words in a certain manner, it’s when people, usually men, use words in a certain manner."
Given I was unaware of the sexist nature of the word, "strident", how can what you say be true? Do you genuinely feel I was intentionally using it in a sexist manner? Or could it be that it was just taken that way?
Molly linked to the piece about Landy and NW, the context of which is women’s rights
You said the person who wrote the piece was “Quite strident in her beliefs”
Molly responded with her thoughts about the use of the word stridency
You said that the letter was “strident as”
I asked you what was wrong with being strident
Instead of answering directly whether there was anything wrong with being strident, you replied with an indirect question “Who said being strident is wrong?”
I then said “perhaps you are unaware that strident is a negative term used about women, especially in politics, to undermine them and their words/actions/mana”. I said this because my guess was that you were unaware of that. And that if you became aware, then you might rethink what you were arguing in a conversation about women’s rights.
You then engaged in a somewhat drawn out conversation about the semantics of the word
I explained at length what the issues are with the word strident, terf, and other words, as well as understanding sexism via a class analysis rather than personal insult.
You implied that there was a hint of me lambasting you for you not being unaware (but you didn’t point to anything specific)
I said ok, what would be better, and also, it’s a robust debate political blog.
You’ve now asked “Given I was unaware of the sexist nature of the word, “strident”, how can what you say be true? Do you genuinely feel I was intentionally using it in a sexist manner?”, despite my having said early on that I suspect you were unaware of the sexist use of term
You also said “Or could it be that it was just taken that way?” despite my having explained at length that sexism is what the person using the word does, it’s not what the woman on the receiving end does.
FWIW, no, I don’t think you used the term in an intentionally sexist way. If you look back you can clearly see that I have not at any time said you were being sexist. What I did was point out that the term has a sexist usage, because I thought you were unaware of that and you might want to be aware of that in a conversation about women’s rights.
If I think someone on TS is being overtly, intentionally sexist, I usually say so up front.
What would be useful right now is if you would clarify if you accept that the term has a sexist history (despite you not knowing that earlier and not having used it that way).
tbh, I struggle with your conversational/debate style sometimes. I didn’t see you acknowledge that the term has a sexist history. Your questioning rhetoric often comes across as questioning the validity of what people are saying. It was strange to me that we spent so much time talking about concepts of political language that I think are common place on TS.
As for batting ideas back and forth, maybe for you this is a lighter issue. For some of us it is incredibly serious. For me personally, GC politics is the most important issue we face after climate/ecology (for complex reasons to do with the suppression of women’s knowledge and way of thinking about climate/ecology, and I don’t think it’s coincidence there are very strong pushes to remove women-centre politics at this time). Although the Treaty issues arising are up there too. Same deal.
Yes, TS is a serious place. There’s fun and different kinds of exchanges as well, but pays to pick the topic I think.
You are welcome to talk about feminist issues, and GC pol doesn't just affect women. But you can't expect other people to talk about it with the fun vibe you seem to want, if they don't want to.
I had some great fun with GC feminists last year, and there were times when it was incredibly serious. I really don't see the problem other than maybe you misreading the room or wanting other people to act in a certain way.
"Men aren't women – even if you squint" is a statement of fact.
No, it's not a fact. "even if you squint" indicates that it's a visual perception issue. That means seeing a man or a woman is the issue. If you squint and see a woman, you see a woman, whether the subject of your attention is or isn't (it might even be a mannequin).
Might "indicate" a perception issue – but still a statement of fact.
However, people have a problem with the concise and accurate three word descriptor – adult human female – so I don't think clarity improves that cognitive issue.
Maybe an example of an individual/group claiming and using a word to 'defang' it?
At the PYO blueberry farm where I pick, ~10 years ago the unpretentious roadside sign "Blueberries, 9 – 2 pm" had been altered to read "Blueberries are Gay".
That’s funny (to me) to this day – perhaps you had to be there.
The footpaths laid down by Labour in the direction of co-governance, the curbing of free speech, and the erasure of biological sex differences were not, however, trod by the masses. Indeed, they appeared to most New Zealanders to be leading them into wild and unknown territory. Not only did they not want to go there, but they became increasingly suspicious of the motives of those who kept insisting that they should.
What the Left still doesn’t seem to have got its head around is that the defeated Labour Party is not the innocent victim of reactionaries…
Labour lost because, after 2020, Jacinda’s political skills deserted her and, following her departure in January 2023, Chris Hipkins and his colleagues were exposed as a pretty hopeless bunch of politicians. What those Labour MPs celebrated as “progressive”, a great many voters considered either loopy, or dangerous, or a volatile mixture of the two.
Hang on, he oughta already know that Labour always blames any semi-plausible scapegoat. Not in their genes to acknowledge their mistakes – still silent, laying low.
Haven't been keeping up with the news (really not very interested in other people's weddings) – but if there are protesters there – they should be ashamed of themselves.
Ummm – I for one am very grateful to our former PM as I had covid nearly 2 years ago which affected my heart, which I gather would have been far worse if I hadn't been vacinated (I continue to keep up to date with my boosters) and take extra care as Covid is back with us with avengeance and quite rampant in our area. Just glad I'm still alive and sort of kicking.
Ardern did a great deed in declaring a lock down or two and protecting the most vulnerable amongst us the best she could have done and that was all anybody could have asked for in that time.
I am grateful that she was there when the first outbreaks were around.
Actually without wanting to use Jacinda's special day, it does take us back to Pats original piece on here about Dame Anne Salmond column. We were united under the initial phase of Covid, "team of 5 millon". Then quickly became divided. What happened?
IMO ideology took over the Govt agenda. I found it alarming the ideas in the He Puapua report, followed up by things like the Rotorua amendment Bill, the gender self ID select committee, where women were raising very valid concerns and were treated with contempt by mostly Labour women MPs. As there was imo no mandate for these policies (gender self Id, trans in women's sports in particular have very poor support in political polls. What are you supposed to do when the govt you have supported are pushing through legislation that they have not campaigned on? This is a geniune question. I think the coalition might be blamed for pushing the division, but actually they were responding to policy being brought in by Labour. Someone said it takes two to tango. But if someone starts something, sometimes the best option is to push back
It's funny, when reading Dame Anne Salmond's article and she spoke of divisions and the need to heal them, I thought of Robert and the attitudes behind cookers, now covidiots.
Just kinda pulling the scab off and having a poke at the wound just for the sake of it.
pushing through legislation that they have not campaigned on
Tbh I didn't really notice they were doing so until quite late. I'm so used to their bumbling style I guess, I did point out quite a few times onsite here that it seemed peculiar they were doing what the media called co-governance without explaining themselves to the public, but it never actually occurred to me that it was cynical.
I did read it as timidity, but that's just usual Labour. I think I may have even given them credit for being progressive about it once or twice. But stealth politics does have an anti-democratic whiff about it. There's a reasonable basis for co-governance, if you view the Treaty as a social contract, so I guess I indulged them on that basis.
The opposition to it also seems reasonable if you see the Treaty as merely history though, and I doubt Dame Anne has explicitly supported Labour's strategy.
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Kia ora, it’s time for another Friday roundup, in which we pull together some of the links and stories that caught our eye this week. Feel free to add more in the comments! Our header image this week shows a foggy day in Auckland town, captured by Patrick Reynolds. ...
TL;DR : Here’s the top six items climate news for Aotearoa this week, as selected by Bernard Hickey and The Kākā’s climate correspondent Cathrine Dyer. A discussion recorded yesterday is in the video above and the audio of that sent onto the podcast feed.The Government released its draft Emissions Reduction ...
Save some money, get rich and old, bring it back to Tobacco Road.Bring that dynamite and a crane, blow it up, start all over again.Roll up. Roll up. Or tailor made, if you prefer...Whether you’re selling ciggies, digging for gold, catching dolphins in your nets, or encouraging folks to flutter ...
Waiting In The Wings:For truly, if Trump is America’s un-assassinated Caesar, then J.D. Vance is America’s Octavian, the Republic’s youthful undertaker – and its first Emperor.DONALD TRUMP’S SELECTION of James D. Vance as his running-mate bodes ill for the American republic. A fervent supporter of Viktor Orban, the “illiberal” prime ...
TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Friday, July 19, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:The PSAannounced the Employment Relations Authority (ERA) had ruled in the PSA’s favour in its case against the Ministry ...
TL;DR: The podcast above of the weekly ‘hoon’ webinar for paying subscribers last night features co-hosts and talking with:The Kākā’s climate correspondent talking about the National-ACT-NZ First Government’s release of its first Emissions Reduction Plan;University of Otago Foreign Relations Professor and special guest Dr Karin von ...
Open access notablesImproving global temperature datasets to better account for non-uniform warming, Calvert, Quarterly Journal of the Royal Meteorological Society:To better account for spatial non-uniform trends in warming, a new GITD [global instrumental temperature dataset] was created that used maximum likelihood estimation (MLE) to combine the land surface ...
A late change to charter school legislation will cheat educators out of fair pay and negotiating power proving charter schools are just a vehicle to make profit out of our education system. ...
In 2004 te iwi Māori rallied against the Crown’s attempt to confiscate our coastlines and moana with the Foreshore and Seabed Act. This led to the largest hīkoi of a generation and the birth of Te Pāti Māori. 20 years later, history is repeating itself. Today the government has announced ...
It has been five and a half years since the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care was established to investigate the abuse of children, young people, and vulnerable adults within state and faith-based institutions. Yesterday, the final report - Whanaketia through pain and trauma, from darkness to light ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to take action off the back of the International Court of Justice ruling on Israel’s illegal occupation of Palestine. ...
On Friday the International Court of Justice reaffirmed what Palestinian’s have been telling us for decades: that the occupation and colonisation of Palestinian lands by Israel is illegal and must end immediately. They also called for reparations for Palestinian’s who have lived under Israeli occupation since it began in 1967. ...
Labour calls on the Government to act after the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruled that Israel’s occupation of Palestinian Territories is illegal. ...
The 53.7 percent rise in benefit sanctions over the last year is more proof of this Government’s disdain for our communities most in need of support. ...
Aotearoa could be a country where every child grows up feeling safe, loved and with a sense of belonging in their whānau and community. But for some of our children, this is far from reality. Instead, they are trapped in a maze of intergenerational harm that they can’t escape on ...
Te Pāti Māori are calling for David Seymour to resign as Associate Health Minister in response to his call for Pharmac to ignore the Treaty of Waitangi. “This announcement is just another example of the government’s anti-Tiriti, anti-Māori agenda.” Said Co-leader and spokesperson for health, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. “Seymour thinks it ...
The soaring price of renting is driving the rise of inflation in this country - with latest figures from Stats NZ showing rents are up 4.8 per cent on average while annual inflation is at 3.3 per cent. ...
National’s Emissions Reduction Plan will take New Zealand further from the economy we need to ensure the next generation has a stable climate and secure livelihoods. ...
Following consultation with named parties and thorough consideration of privacy interests, the Green Party is in a position to release the Executive Summary of the final report from the independent investigation into Darleen Tana. ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon should be asking serious questions of his Minister for Resources Shane Jones now it’s been revealed he misled the public about a dinner with mining companies that he didn’t declare and said wasn’t pre-arranged. ...
Te Pāti Māori have submitted to the Justice Select Committee against the Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill. The bill will further entrench racism in our justice system and fails to focus on rehabilitation. “Reinstating Three Strikes will empower a systematically racist system and exacerbate the overrepresentation of Māori in ...
The Transport and Infrastructure Committee is set to make a determination on the Residential Tenancies Amendment (RTA) Bill in the coming weeks. “This legislation will give landlords the power to kick our whānau out onto the street for no reason” said Housing spokesperson, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. “Their solution to the housing ...
“National’s campaign was about tackling crime and the best they can do is a two-year long Ministerial Advisory Group,” Labour justice spokesperson Duncan Webb said. ...
“There are more examples of charter schools failing their students than there are success stories. The coalition Government is driving to dismantle our public school system and instead promote a privatised, competitive structure that puts profits before kids,” Jan Tinetti said. ...
“This government is choosing to deliberately mislead and withhold information, keeping our people in the dark about this government’s agenda and the future of our mokopuna,” said co-leader and spokesperson for Health, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. The call comes after the demand from the Chief Ombudsman that Associate Minister of Health, Casey ...
“Today’s climate announcement by Simon Watts makes clear the National Government is simply paying lip service to meeting its climate change targets,” Megan Woods said. ...
National is choosing to make life harder for workers by taking away the rights our communities have fought hard for. Here's how they’re taking workers backwards. ...
Australia, Canada and New Zealand today issued the following statement on the need for an urgent ceasefire in Gaza and the risk of expanded conflict between Hizballah and Israel. The situation in Gaza is catastrophic. The human suffering is unacceptable. It cannot continue. We remain unequivocal in our condemnation of ...
Attorney-General Judith Collins today reminded all State and faith-based institutions of their legal obligation to preserve records relevant to the safety and wellbeing of those in its care. “The Abuse in Care Inquiry’s report has found cases where records of the most vulnerable people in State and faith‑based institutions were ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says the Government’s online safety website for children and young people has reached one million page views. “It is great to see so many young people and their families accessing the site Keep It Real Online to learn how to stay safe online, and manage ...
Tēnā tātou katoa, Ngā mihi te rangi, ngā mihi te whenua, ngā mihi ki a koutou, kia ora mai koutou. Thank you for the opportunity to be here and the invitation to speak at this 50th anniversary conference. I acknowledge all those who have gone before us and paved the ...
New Zealand’s payroll providers have successfully prepared to ensure 3.5 million individuals will, from Wednesday next week, be able to keep more of what they earn each pay, says Finance Minister Nicola Willis and Revenue Minister Simon Watts. “The Government's tax policy changes are legally effective from Wednesday. Delivering this tax ...
An experimental vineyard which will help futureproof the wine sector has been opened in Blenheim by Associate Regional Development Minister Mark Patterson. The covered vineyard, based at the New Zealand Wine Centre – Te Pokapū Wāina o Aotearoa, enables controlled environmental conditions. “The research that will be produced at the Experimental ...
The Coalition Government has confirmed the indicative regional breakdown of North Island Weather Event (NIWE) funding for state highway recovery projects funded through Budget 2024, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Regions in the North Island suffered extensive and devastating damage from Cyclone Gabrielle and the 2023 Auckland Anniversary Floods, and ...
Indonesia’s Foreign Minister, Retno Marsudi, will visit New Zealand next week, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced. “Indonesia is important to New Zealand’s security and economic interests and is our closest South East Asian neighbour,” says Mr Peters, who is currently in Laos to engage with South East Asian partners. ...
He aha te kai a te rangatira? He kōrero, he kōrero, he kōrero. The government has reaffirmed its commitment to supporting the aspirations of Ngāti Maniapoto, Minister for Māori Development Tama Potaka says. “My thanks to Te Nehenehenui Trust – Ngāti Maniapoto for bringing their important kōrero to a ministerial ...
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has thanked outgoing Chair of the Civil Aviation Authority, Janice Fredric, for her service to the board.“I have received Ms Fredric’s resignation from the role of Chair of the Civil Aviation Authority,” Mr Brown says.“On behalf of the Government, I want to thank Ms Fredric for ...
The Government is proposing legislation to overturn a Court of Appeal decision and amend the Marine and Coastal Area Act in order to restore Parliament’s test for Customary Marine Title, Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “Section 58 required an applicant group to prove they have exclusively used and occupied ...
Regulation Minister David Seymour says that opposition parties have united in bad faith, opposing what they claim are ‘dangerous changes’ to the Early Childhood Education sector, despite no changes even being proposed yet. “Issues with affordability and availability of early childhood education, and the complexity of its regulation, has led ...
After receiving more than 740 submissions in the first 20 days, Regulation Minister David Seymour is asking the Ministry for Regulation to extend engagement on the early childhood education regulation review by an extra two weeks. “The level of interest has been very high, and from the conversations I’ve been ...
The Coalition Government is investing $802.9 million into the Wairarapa and Manawatū rail lines as part of a funding agreement with the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA), KiwiRail, and the Greater Wellington and Horizons Regional Councils to deliver more reliable services for commuters in the lower North Island, Transport Minister Simeon ...
Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced his intention to appoint a Crown Manager to both Hawke’s Bay Regional and Wairoa District Councils to speed up the delivery of flood protection work in Wairoa."Recent severe weather events in Wairoa this year, combined with damage from Cyclone Gabrielle in 2023 have ...
Mr Speaker, this is a day that many New Zealanders who were abused in State care never thought would come. It’s the day that this Parliament accepts, with deep sorrow and regret, the Report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care. At the heart of this report are the ...
For the first time, the Government is formally acknowledging some children and young people at Lake Alice Psychiatric Hospital experienced torture. The final report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in State and Faith-based Care “Whanaketia – through pain and trauma, from darkness to light,” was tabled in Parliament ...
The Government has acknowledged the nearly 2,400 courageous survivors who shared their experiences during the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Historical Abuse in State and Faith-Based Care. The final report from the largest and most complex public inquiry ever held in New Zealand, the Royal Commission Inquiry “Whanaketia – through ...
With a week to go before hard-working New Zealanders see personal income tax relief for the first time in fourteen years, 513,000 people have used the Budget tax calculator to see how much they will benefit, says Finance Minister Nicola Willis. “Tax relief is long overdue. From next Wednesday, personal income ...
Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brooke van Velden says a bill that has passed its first reading will improve parental leave settings and give non-biological parents more flexibility as primary carer for their child. The Regulatory Systems Amendment Bill (No3), passed its first reading this morning. “It includes a change ...
Two Bills designed to improve regulation and make it easier to do business have passed their first reading in Parliament, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. The Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill and Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill make key changes to legislation administered by the Ministry ...
New legislation paves the way for greater competition in sectors such as banking and electricity, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says. “Competitive markets boost productivity, create employment opportunities and lift living standards. To support competition, we need good quality regulation but, unfortunately, a recent OECD report ranked New ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says lotteries for charitable purposes, such as those run by the Heart Foundation, Coastguard NZ, and local hospices, will soon be allowed to operate online permanently. “Under current laws, these fundraising lotteries are only allowed to operate online until October 2024, after which ...
The Coalition Government is accelerating work on the new four-lane expressway between Auckland and Whangārei as part of its Roads of National Significance programme, with an accelerated delivery model to deliver this project faster and more efficiently, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “For too long, the lack of resilient transport connections ...
Sir Don McKinnon will travel to Viet Nam this week as a Special Envoy of the Government, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced. “It is important that the Government give due recognition to the significant contributions that General Secretary Nguyen Phu Trong made to New Zealand-Viet Nam relations,” Mr ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says newly appointed Commissioner, Grant Illingworth KC, will help deliver the report for the first phase of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into COVID-19 Lessons, due on 28 November 2024. “I am pleased to announce that Mr Illingworth will commence his appointment as ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters travels to Laos this week to participate in a series of Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN)-led Ministerial meetings in Vientiane. “ASEAN plays an important role in supporting a peaceful, stable and prosperous Indo-Pacific,” Mr Peters says. “This will be our third visit to ...
Construction of a new mental health facility at Te Nikau Grey Hospital in Greymouth is today one step closer, Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey says. “This $27 million facility shows this Government is delivering on its promise to boost mental health care and improve front line services,” Mr Doocey says. ...
New Zealand is committing nearly $50 million to a package supporting sustainable Pacific fisheries development over the next four years, Foreign Minister Winston Peters and Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones announced today. “This support consisting of a range of initiatives demonstrates New Zealand’s commitment to assisting our Pacific partners ...
Associate Education Minister David Seymour says proposed changes to the Education and Training Amendment Bill will ensure charter schools have more flexibility to negotiate employment agreements and are equipped with the right teaching resources. “Cabinet has agreed to progress an amendment which means unions will not be able to initiate ...
In response to serious concerns around oversight, overspend and a significant deterioration in financial outlook, the Board of Health New Zealand will be replaced with a Commissioner, Health Minister Dr Shane Reti announced today. “The previous government’s botched health reforms have created significant financial challenges at Health NZ that, without ...
Minister for Space and Science, Innovation and Technology Judith Collins will travel to Adelaide tomorrow for space and science engagements, including speaking at the Australian Space Forum. While there she will also have meetings and visits with a focus on space, biotechnology and innovation. “New Zealand has a thriving space ...
Climate Change Minister Simon Watts will travel to China on Saturday to attend the Ministerial on Climate Action meeting held in Wuhan. “Attending the Ministerial on Climate Action is an opportunity to advocate for New Zealand climate priorities and engage with our key partners on climate action,” Mr Watts says. ...
Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones is travelling to the Solomon Islands tomorrow for meetings with his counterparts from around the Pacific supporting collective management of the region’s fisheries. The 23rd Pacific Islands Forum Fisheries Committee and the 5th Regional Fisheries Ministers’ Meeting in Honiara from 23 to 26 July ...
The Government today launched the Military Style Academy Pilot at Te Au rere a te Tonga Youth Justice residence in Palmerston North, an important part of the Government’s plan to crackdown on youth crime and getting youth offenders back on track, Minister for Children, Karen Chhour said today. “On the ...
The Government has welcomed news the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) has begun work to replace nine priority bridges across the country to ensure our state highway network remains resilient, reliable, and efficient for road users, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.“Increasing productivity and economic growth is a key priority for the ...
Acting Prime Minister David Seymour has been in contact throughout the evening with senior officials who have coordinated a whole of government response to the global IT outage and can provide an update. The Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet has designated the National Emergency Management Agency as the ...
New Zealand and Japan will continue to step up their shared engagement with the Pacific, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “New Zealand and Japan have a strong, shared interest in a free, open and stable Pacific Islands region,” Mr Peters says. “We are pleased to be finding more ways ...
New developments in the heart of North Island forestry country will reinvigorate their communities and boost economic development, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones visited Kaingaroa and Kawerau in Bay of Plenty today to open a landmark community centre in the former and a new connecting road in ...
President Adeang, fellow Ministers, honourable Diet Member Horii, Ambassadors, distinguished guests. Minasama, konnichiwa, and good afternoon, everyone. Distinguished guests, it’s a pleasure to be here with you today to talk about New Zealand’s foreign policy reset, the reasons for it, the values that underpin it, and how it ...
Last summer when Matairangi burned, Ginny and Tom stood at the window of their lounge, watching kākā shoot skyward from the burning trees. From the distance, they looked to Ginny like pages torn from books and thrown into a bonfire. It was Tom, voice tight, who told her it was ...
Opinion: The Canadian short story writer Alice Munro – winner of the Nobel Prize in Literature in 2013 – died in May at the age of 92. Her work was about “the damage people inflict on one another in the name of love”, Deborah Treisman wrote in the New Yorker. ...
This month marks two years since the most powerful telescope ever built sent its first pictures back to earth. From its lofty vantage point, beyond the moon in orbit around the sun, the James Webb Space Telescope was tuned to observe the first stars and galaxies being born soon after ...
Comment: After Climate Change Minister Simon Watts’ preview several weeks ago, I had some optimism about the Government’s emissions reduction plan. Now I’ve read the discussion document, that hope has been dashed. How can the Government propose a plan that wants to take New Zealand taxpayers’ hard-earned money, and spend ...
Christopher Luxon: hurdles The little man from National jumps hurdles in his sleep. He’s quite good at it in his dreams and even though the reality doesn’t quite match up you have to give him credit for getting up every morning and crashing into the very first hurdle of the ...
Comment: It was a good two hours into the conversation when Tyrone Marks raised the most basic of questions when I first spoke to him in 2017. “They didn’t explain the things they did to me. They never told me why. And they still haven’t. There’s no explanation for it. ...
Madeleine Chapman rounds out Death Week on The Spinoff with a final recommendation. You can read all of our Death Week coverage here. Nothing forces you to reflect on your life and relationships quite like proximity to death. For those whose nearest and dearest have died, there are reasonably obvious ...
Whitney Greene takes us through her life in television, including the TV character she’d like to plan a funeral for and her cow lung catastrophe on The Traitors NZ. “If the phone rings, I have to answer it,” Whitney Greene from The Traitors NZ warns as we begin our My ...
Maddie Ballard reviews the debut essay collection of Pōneke writer Flora Feltham.In ‘The Raw Material’, the longest essay in Flora Feltham’s dazzling debut collection, the author heads out for a run after hours of weaving and sees the world turn to textile. “Pounding along the Parade, I saw the ...
Andy Christiansen, one half of the experimental rock-pop duo TRiPS, shares the tunes inspiring the band’s perfect weekend and new release. “Good speakers, good food, good music, no distractions”: that’s all you need to enjoy the psychedelic stylings of TRiPS, a new band formed by Fly My Pretties’ Barnaby Weir ...
Celebrating our quadrennial opportunity to become experts in a bunch of sports we never normally watch.The games of the XXXIII Olympiad are upon us. Paris will host this year’s showcase of sporting and athletic prowess, which means some late-night and early-morning viewing for us in Aotearoa.But what sports ...
The photograph is striking and beautiful, but also disturbing – a reminder that my love for John was often entangled in shame.The Sunday Essay is made possible thanks to the support of Creative New Zealand.In the spring of 1980, in Dunedin, shortly before his death, someone took a photograph ...
Get to know Babushka, our latest Dog of the Month. This feature was offered as a reward during our What’s Eating Aotearoa PledgeMe campaign. Thank you to Babu’s humans, Jo and Isabel, for their support. Dog name: Babushka (Babu for short) Age: 2Breed: Border Collie X poodleIf rescued, ...
Pacific Media Watch A Lebanese photojournalist who was severely wounded during an Israeli air strike in south Lebanon carried the Olympic torch in Paris this week in honour of her peers who have been wounded and killed in the field — especially in Gaza and Lebanon. Christina Assi of Agence ...
The first report in a five-part web series focused on the 15th Triennial Conference of Pacific Women taking place in the Marshall Islands this week.SPECIAL REPORT:By Netani Rika in Majuro Women continue to fight for justice 70 years after the first nuclear tests by the United States caused ...
Christopher Luxon has joined with Australia and Canada's leaders in voicing support for US President Joe Biden's ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra The 2022 election brought the “teal wave” into parliament. The next election will test whether teals, who occupy what were Liberal seats, and other independents can maintain their momentum. Joining us on the Podcast ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ian Musgrave, Senior lecturer in Pharmacology, University of Adelaide Pixavri/Shutterstock A major Federal Court class action has been dismissed this week after Justice Michael Lee ruled there was not enough evidence to prove the weedkiller Roundup causes cancer. Plaintiff Kelvin ...
In The Week in Politics: politicians have to decide what to do about child abuse, Health NZ is booked in for major surgery and Darleen Tana returns. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Clare Corbould, Associate Professor, Contemporary Histories Research Group, Deakin University Mainstream media are surprisingly muted at the prospect of the world’s most powerful nation being led for the first time by a woman – specifically a woman of colour, Vice President Kamala ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Rebecca Bennett, PhD Student, Associate Research Fellow, Deakin University Last week, a drone delivery company called Wing (owned by Google’s parent company, Alphabet) started operating in Melbourne. Some 250,000 residents in parts of the city’s eastern suburbs can now order food from ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jonathan Foo, Lecturer, Physiotherapy, Monash University pikselstock/Shutterstock In the next 40 years in Australia, it’s predicted the number of Australians aged 65 and over will more than double, while the number of people aged 85 and over will more than triple. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Katrina Grant, Research Associate, Power Institute for Arts and Visual Culture, University of Sydney Jonas Åkerström’s 1790 work, Session of the Accademia dell’Arcadia on August 17 1788.Nationalmuseum/Cecilia Heisser Ever wondered whether you’d have a better chance at winning an Olympic gold ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Alexandra Jones, Program Lead, Food Governance, George Institute for Global Health wavebreakmedia/Shutterstock On Thursday, Australian and New Zealand food ministers at state, federal and national levels met to thrash out what’s next for health star ratings on packaged foods. Now, after ...
The Abuse in Care report found many Pacific survivors lost their connections to their culture and language, resulting in trauma that has been carried from generation to generation. ...
In the regulatory review, ECC intends to suggest that ERO focus on curriculum delivery reviews rather than the Ministry, because it’s not efficient or effective to have two agencies with radically different approaches climbing over each other. ...
Te Rūnanga Nui o Ngā Kura Kaupapa Māori invites the current government to work in partnership with them to develop a pathway forward, including the development of a parallel pathway and meaningful policy and strategy for Kura Kaupapa Māori ...
If you haven’t started watching yet, Tara Ward begs you to reconsider. This is an excerpt from our weekly pop culture newsletter Rec Room. Sign up here. In the world of New Zealand reality television, we have many gems in our crown. There’s the delicious second season of the Celebrity Treasure ...
A new poem by Fiona Kidman. The clothes of the dead I did not keep my mother’s furry red beret for long nor the stringy scarves that adorned the necks of my aunts, although I have kept tag ends of gold, the rings and trinkets they wore, the brooches no ...
The government’s announcement that it will re-open the foreshore and seabed controversy by changing the rules on recognising centuries-old Māori customary title for a third time goes against the rule of law and New Zealand values,” Mr Tipa says. ...
The only published and available best-selling indie book chart in New Zealand is the top 10 sales list recorded every week at Unity Books’ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington.AUCKLAND1 Lioness by Emily Perkins (Bloomsbury, $25) Roarrrr! Perkins’ brilliant, award-winning, Marian-Keyes anointed, darkly funny, long ...
The 2004 Act vested ownership of the foreshore and seabed in the Crown, extinguishing any Māori claims to ownership and causing widespread outrage and protests among Māori communities. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Antje Deckert, Associate Professor (Criminology), Auckland University of Technology Getty Images Despite the connection between institutional harm and gang membership made clear in this week’s mammoth royal commission abuse-in care report, the government seems unlikely to soften its “get tough on ...
From Lewis Clareburt in the swimming to the start of the rowing – the first seven days of Paris 2024 promise to be big for New Zealand. There are few events that bring the country together quite like an Olympic Games. Nothing quite matches the excitement of getting up in ...
Groundbreaking local science just showed up in the most surprising of places: the season finale of The Kardashians. In the season five finale of The Kardashians last night, several members of the family gathered together in one of their signature empty, cream-coloured rooms to hear test results that had been ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Amin Saikal, Emeritus professor of Middle Eastern and Central Asian Studies, Australian National University The Middle East is on the brink of a possibly devastating regional war, with hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah reaching an extremely dangerous level. Washington has engaged in ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Laura Elizabeth Eades, Rheumatologist, Monash University Lupus is an inflammatory autoimmune illness, where the body’s immune system mistakenly attacks itself. Lupus can affect virtually any part of the body, although it most commonly affects the skin, joints and kidneys. The symptoms ...
A law firm that specialises in working with survivors of abuse in State care is disappointed that the Government fails to recognise that its boot camps can be directly compared to previous boot camps from the 1990s and 2000s. ...
Dying is a natural part of life, like updating your Wof or seeing your hairdresser, but without the word-of-mouth recs that help guarantee a good service. What if we changed that? Dying Reviews received by The Spinoff have had the names of organisations redacted while Hospice NZ collects further data. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jonti Horner, Professor (Astrophysics), University of Southern Queensland Mike Lewinski/Flickr, CC BY On any clear night, if you gaze skywards long enough, chances are you’ll see a meteor streaking through the sky. Some nights, however, are better than others. At ...
Despite having no bars or other designated spaces for lesbians, Auckland boasts a small but mighty lesbian museum. So how did it get here? The past 18 months has brought increasing hostility towards the queer community across Aotearoa. Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull’s anti-trans rally in Tamaki Makaurau last March led to a ...
Poneke Antifascist Coalition has invited Wellingtonians to stand in solidarity with the Kanak people at 12pm today outside the French Embassy in Wellington. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Peter Layton, Visiting Fellow, Strategic Studies, Griffith University Drones are the signature technology of the Ukraine war. A few miniature aircraft designs were used in the war’s early days, but an incredible array of drones have now evolved. There are different types, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Mark Slee, Associate Professor, Clinical Academic Neurologist, Flinders University Francisco Gonzelez/Unsplash Migraine is many things, but one thing it’s not is “just a headache”. “Migraine” comes from the Greek word “hemicrania”, referring to the common experience of migraine being predominantly ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Lee White, Senior Lecturer and Horizon Fellow, School of Social and Political Sciences, University of Sydney Australia was slow to introduce minimum building standards for energy efficiency. The Nationwide House Energy Rating Scheme (NatHERS) only came into force in 2003. Older homes ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Steven Sherwood, Professor of Atmospheric Sciences, Climate Change Research Centre, UNSW Sydney The past century of human-induced warming has increased rainfall variability over 75% of the Earth’s land area – particularly over Australia, Europe and eastern North America, new research shows. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Tony Heynen, Program Coordinator, Sustainable Energy, The University of Queensland A temporary stadium in the Champ-de-Mars, ParisEkaterina Pokrovsky/Shutterstock As Paris prepares to host the Olympic and Paralympic Games, the sustainability of the event is coming under scrutiny. The organisers have promoted ...
A night of karaoke and community in a pub that feels like a memory. You’d barely even notice it, unless you knew to look. Tucked away behind a liquor store on busy Constable Street is the capital’s last great pub. Newtown Sports Bar is an emblem of the pub culture ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ian Wright, Professor in Marine Geology, University of Canterbury Louise Corcoran/Getty Images The decline in the number of doctoral candidates at New Zealand universities is a worrying sign for the country’s effort to build a knowledge-based economy. Aotearoa New Zealand’s ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Laurie Berg, Associate Professor, University of Technology Sydney defotoberg/Shutterstock Migrant worker exploitation is entrenched in workplaces across Australia. Tragically, a deep fear of immigration consequences means most unlawful employer conduct goes unreported. On Wednesday, however, the government officially launched a ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Vaughan Cruickshank, Senior Lecturer in Health and Physical Education, University of Tasmania Paris is about to host its third summer Olympics. While we don’t yet know what the legacy of this year’s games will be, let’s take the opportunity to reflect on ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Hugh Breakey, Deputy Director, Institute for Ethics, Governance & Law, Griffith University In the wake of the assassination attempt on former US President Donald Trump, there were calls from bothsides of US politics, as well as internationally, to reduce the brutal, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Keith Rathbone, Senior Lecturer, Modern European History and Sports History, Macquarie University Two high-profile assaults on Australians in Paris have raised concerns about security ahead of the Olympic Games. On Saturday evening, a young woman was allegedly sexually assaulted by a ...
Dying is inevitable and, so it seems, is it costing a lot, writes Stewart Sowman-Lund in today’s extract from The Bulletin. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here.The cost of dying ...
The government took Joyce Harris's first baby and sent her off to a girls' home. Half a century on - and out of oceans of hurt - it asked her to be a mother figure. ...
It’s the deadliest fictional town in the country, but which death has been the most bonkers? Alex Casey looks back at 10 seasons of The Brokenwood Mysteries to find out. Warning: The following ranking story contains famous New Zealand actors appearing to be dead (not alive). The Spinoff has been ...
Water cremation is the biggest thing to happen to the death industry in the last 100 years. Alex Casey meets the people trying to bring it to Aotearoa. Through a set of mirrored doors down the industrial end of Christchurch’s St Asaph Street, death is getting a new lease on ...
NONFICTION 1 The Last Secret Agent by Pippa Latour & Jude Dobson (Allen & Unwin, $37.99) 2 The Life of Dai by Dai Henwood and Jaquie Brown (HarperCollins, $39.99) 3 A Life Less Punishing by Matt Heath (Allen & Unwin, $37.99) 4 Waitohu by Hinemoa Elder (Penguin Random House, $35) ...
It takes two to tango
Cui bono?
And who dosnt?
Dame Anne Salmond imparts some well founded fears.
https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/01/13/dame-anne-salmond-how-to-split-a-society/
A valid concern for sure, but I suspect alarmism works better when made more specific: generalities wash over readers, giving them no more than a vague sense of something wrong somewhere.
Ordinary citizens have never been astute. Nor can one blame them for being sheeple. It's innate human nature creating masses & driving democracy. Dame Anne fingers the causal agency: self-interested elites. Yet social norms produce these groups. They are a functional part of the body politic, since forever. A social reformer would have to specify a technical improvement to the design of democracy to eliminate the problem. Liberals merely complain & expect someone else to do something about it. Not fair to put her in that category though:
More centrism is indeed a viable antidote to polarising forces. Re engagement inclusion, it just requires us to be radical enough to actually make it happen rather than just want it to (the classic liberal limp wrist). Re citizen's assemblies, you bet. A centrist organiser ought to make these happen asap: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/in-depth/505616/how-citizens-assemblies-could-resolve-new-zealand-s-toughest-debates
Could be we're in a weather lull before another winter of discontent. Would make sense for some enterprising politician to demonstrate leadership, recruit a few relevant professors to co-design a collaborative public assembly. Would also need professional organisers to incorporate suitable guidelines & conditions to manage group process productively – sideline fringe nutters & screwballs who disrespect rules. https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/01/13/dame-anne-salmond-how-to-split-a-society/
You are of the opinion that Dame Anne is an alarmist?
That the problem can only be solved by politicians , professional organisers and professors? (the very groups that have led us here)
That the current situation is a lull?
Thats one take I guess.
Pragmatic folk will just wait to see what kind of shit emanates from the new govt & how much of each kind. However I share your cynicism re centrist do-gooders.
I don't see her alarmism as unworthy – I prefer better direction. Perpetuating malaise is poor public service so we need a proactive stance. Call me naive but I do have faith in the wisdom of the crowd. Just needs to be catalysed…
"Call me naive but I do have faith in the wisdom of the crowd." 13 January 2024 at 11:06 am
and yet
"Ordinary citizens have never been astute. Nor can one blame them for being sheeple." 13 January 2024 at 8:43 am
Maybe its 2 takes
Yeah, I agree that it's a self-contradictory look. Complementarity can be like that sometimes.![smiley smiley](https://cdn2.thestandard.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/ark-wysiwyg-comment-editor/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/regular_smile.png?x42494)
It can?…not in the world I inhabit.
mod note. I will reinstate your comment when you supply a link.
https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/01/13/dame-anne-salmond-how-to-split-a-society/
Identity politics seeks to divide us based on race, ethnicity, sexual orientation etc.
One issue I would disagree with AS about is the coalition and women. Peters made part of his election campaign protecting women's spaces , eg public bathrooms and change rooms, while providing alternatives for transgender people. He also got across the line the protection of the women's sports category.
Opps disregard this. I didn't think it had posted. I re-read AS and she mentions the women's ministry, not women.
Unfortunately Anker, rational thought is the first thing to disappear when the pressure goes on,,,and there is no doubt the pressure is on…as AS noted with her experience in Bosnia.
How the world works is complicated enough without adding the stressor of increasingly restricted resources….it makes for bad decision making and easy (and erroneous) targets….weve had both of late.
Green capitalism is making a big stink: https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/11/the-town-thats-had-a-gutsful-of-nzs-biggest-worm-farm/
When worthy Green enterprises make locals want to throw up, we got a problem needing a solution.
Blame the Labour/Green govt for slack law-making? The report gives us no apparent basis for doing so – seems like Sir Geoffrey's old RMA did it, but don't blame him. That prescription designed in compliance methodology…
No Enforcement Commissar?? The problem's been happening long enough:
The enforcement is through the Environment Court. However, as it is expensive to take such cases, Councils will only use the Ratepayers $$$$$ to do it as a last resort.
Quite clever neolib design, eh? Polarise locals against local authorities. Escalate hostility on purpose so as to breed subversive ethos amongst sheeple. I could almost applaud the sleight of hand, if yawning weren't a better option…
Here is a taste of the "democratic" Ukraine state defended by the West so vigorously….
American Journalist Gonzalo Lira Has Died While Imprisoned In Ukraine
"Lira’s father, Gonzalo Lira Sr., provided a statement on his son’s death to The Grayzone, saying, “I cannot accept the way my son has died. He was tortured, extorted, and incommunicado for 8 months and 11 days, and the US Embassy did nothing to help my son"
…defended by the West….
In fact, Adrian, "the West" (i.e. Washington and London) are not defending Ukraine at all, they're supplying them with arms and insisting they keep sacrificing young men in this doomed proxy war. Zelensky was about to sue for peace in March 2022; that democratic champion Boris Johnson was despatched to Kiev to browbeat him out of such foolish behaviour.
The rest is blood-stained, and U.S./U.K.-funded, history.
Only russian propaganda sources make such claims about a March-April 2022 peace deal.
The Ukrainian side says that the discovery of mass russian war crimes against civilians in occupied territories made all negotiations null and void.
The Ukrainians know that abandoning your citizens to russian torturers and murderers is immoral, and such peace deals only give russia time to prepare for their next invasion.
That's a nice simple explanation for everything: Russian propaganda. That explains everything, of course.
Why did Boris Johnson fly post-haste to Kiev again?
Neftali Beneth ex Israeli prime minister literally started saying that about the peace deal in which he was a mediator…
Trump card to be played: "This All-American Hero died because Biden refused to help him. I would have sent a squad in to rescue, told the clown it was a goer & dared him to get in the way. Rambo 1.01!
But what the hell was this guy meant to be doing in there anyway?? Being pro-Russian makes him seem a fool in the wrong place, but maybe there's more to it.
"But what the hell was this guy meant to be doing in there anyway??"…oh I don't know…being a war reporter in a supposed western backed democracy…..but then as we know, the West have no interest in democracies…and Ukraine sure as hell isn't one.
Ukraine has free and open elections, with vigorous opposition and a free press. Zelenskyy and other government officials are widely criticised and discussed in the Ukrainian media. Ukraine has changed government and president at almost every election since they left the USSR.
Russia on the other hand imprisons, outlaws or murders all political opponents, imprisons people for 7 years for writing "no war" on supermarket labels, and has the one tsar returning again and again after every presidential election….There is no free media whatsoever tolerated within russia.
Who or what is your imaginary “the West”? Is New Zealand [in] it? Are we, as Kiwis, [in] it? Didn’t we just have a General Election?
Do you intend to continue making these dumbfuckery claims here on this site? BTW, that’s a rhetorical question.
Draw your own conclusions about what coach red pill was doing in Ukraine.
So a stroppy bugger…
Having myself attempted fair & balanced stances accompanied by wild claims I'm tempted to sympathise. No reason to off him but looks like locals weren't inclined to tolerate his input.
Pneumonia, a collapsed lung and edema.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GDqMkpHWAAAAFxa?format=jpg&name=large
Good sleuthing, poor fella, looks like his body decided to do time out…
Rather a gross generalisation. Might have to pursue the search diligently awhile, but I'm confident one could eventually identify a few exceptions to that rule!
Like who, Dennis? Name one "journalist" at the BBC or the New York Times or CNN or Radio New Zealand that is an exception to that rule.
I can name one: Phil Pennington at RNZ. The rest are mere stenographers at best, and (in the case of the failing New York Times and CNN) shills for genocide.
Hmm. I suspect you have in mind those who cover international stories while my comment was general. Re RNZ, there's insufficient persona attached to the names to impact upon me, so I can only cite the general impression I get – that they try diligently to cover the public interest aspects to any story & mostly do a reasonable job.
Ever since its website put a tabloid front up I haven't taken the BBC seriously enough to focus on any of their crew & likewise the US news media although I did like Matt Taibbi's style a few years back (vampire squid on Wall St). A few who started in the TVNZ newsroom when I was there are exceptions – Simon Mercep, for instance, always had the right attitude & instincts. At TV3 Gower did ok & some others too…
Fair comment, Dennis, as always!
Thanks, I'm okay with getting my resilience tested.
Have been feeling my age noticeably more in recent years. Your question was worthwhile. I'm always interested in the interplay between a journo's professionalism & conscience. When a formula political story is the day's task, hewing to conventional diagnosis is the norm which tests the character of the pro: to clone or not to clone, that is the question…
Some background.
Nick Korero's latest epistle:
https://nickrockel.substack.com/p/congrats-jacinda-and-clarke
It's in the sidebar but worth emphasising due to subject matter – plus his usual humour. I used to know 'the scarecrow' well. I doubt she will mind coming from Nick Korero. Its not Jacinda btw.
I agree with his analysis of the Herald newspaper. They are sinking into the gutter.
I also knew "the scarecrow". Not well, but well enough to stay away from.
Never quite made her out.
Yesterday on the Democracy Project:
Yet the employer, discriminating against the elderly consumer, tacitly concedes that right to the offensive employee. Perhaps trans nazi would be ott?
As for Luxon failing the Trotter populism test, I imagine his reaction: "Culture war in Otaki, eh? Bit of a laugh, what? Not me mate, I'm in holiday mode. No old boomer needs me mouthing off on their behalf. Call in Age Concern or something."
https://democracyproject.substack.com/p/nz-politics-daily-12-january-2024
Plainsight have got an article written by someone close to the customer, which is not paywalled:
https://plainsight.nz/jaccuse-new-world-otaki-vs-phillippa-landy-from-a-friend/
it's badly done activism. If they wanted to do this well, take someone to film it or at least take notes in real time and observe what is happening.
Reading the letter from the NW owner, she didn't get banned for the Tshirt, she got banned for expressing her views to staff (multiple) at different times (multiple). On TS we call that a pattern of behaviour, and it's one of the main reasons we moderate.
To me it looks like Landy was flaming. She was acting in specific ways designed to provoke a reaction. She got one and didn't like it and is now trying to make political capital out of it.
So sure, freedom of expression. But it's possible and likely she crossed over a line into harassment, in which case the owner was within their rights to ban her. That she gave him the excuse to do so is on her. If she had been banned instead for simply wearing a GC t-shirt, now that would have been useful activism.
But we don't really know what happened so unless this goes to court and/or there is CCTV footage released, there's not really any good way to judge.
What I can comment on is that No Debate by liberals and the left mean that GC action in NZ is currently largely done by people that have no commitment to the left or progressive politics. Those people aren't going to to away, but they don't appear to give a shit about the wellbeing of trans people. Own goal from the liberal left.
I did wonder at how she managed the group resonance interface & I suspect your analysis is accurate. As someone often inclined toward passionate advocacy on the past with only a moderate capacity for tolerating different views, I had quite an experiential learning curve – had no real clue about the power of context in those earlier decades. However we all must learn from our activist experiences so I hope she's doing that…
It's interesting you assume it was activism, rather than someone wearing a t-shirt.
It's also of interest that you take the ambiguous statement from New World at face value.
If that is the case, then your interpretation will be unlikely to change.
The possibility that the store employee harassed the customer, with support from the manager is also a possibility. One that would be confirmed or dismissed by release of the CCTV.
Just a good woman, wearing a good t-shirt, for a good cause, eh, Molly.
Do you wear your heart (views) on your sleeve (t shirt) Robert?…and should you do so, would you object to being targeted because so?
I have a "Tree Hugger" t-shirt, Pat; I wear it rarely but when I do, I hope for feedback.
🙂
Let us hope your local supermarket isnt owned by a logger…with attitude.
Few supermarkets are, in my experience.
Safe to wear my "Kermit" t-shirt in there as well, I reckon. Probably get a laugh.
You never know Robert…your Kermit T shirt may have you trespassed.
Though one would hope not, but in the current environment who could say.
WitchB…tchSl.tTerfWoman.
This on a tee shirt (and I own one) is what I call good activism.
Weka called it well:
"Reading the letter from the NW owner, she didn't get banned for the Tshirt, she got banned for expressing her views to staff (multiple) at different times (multiple). On TS we call that a pattern of behaviour,"
And yet in the post by Molly that sequence of events is disputed….who is correct?…the jounalist or the (close) friend?…it is apparent that pre existing 'beliefs' determine who is to be believed.
My experience of journalism is it is never entirely accurate, sometimes negligently so.
I believe it was "pattern of behaviour", not "t-shirt".
An 'asserted' pattern of behaviour…unverified and disputed.
Of course the woman may have worn the t Shirt on more than one occasion…to her shame.
Obviously she is not a supporter of fast fashion and believes in wearing clothing to its maximum so as not to needlessly trash the environment nor unnecessarily exploit those who produce the garments.
I wear my favourite one as a form of activism. It's the "woman, adult human female" one and I get plenty of positive feedback, nothing negative so far.
You mean, "Woman: adult human, female", right?
Is is your t-shirt a grammar-fail?
(My correction may be also: grammar’s a b*tch sometimes 🙂
I was just describing it roughly – it actually says:
woman
women (with weird characters that I can't replicate here)
noun
adult human female
It's been the subject of an ASA ruling in the form of a billboard – https://cdn.asa.co.nz/backend/documents/2021/08/10/21378.pdf
While many would prefer "adult female human", making female the subject of the description works as well. The "adult" and "human" become adjectives. Even more clunkily, female human adult would work.
Despite your personal grammatical and lyrical preference, the three interchanging adjectives and subjects provide an accurate and complete definition for woman however they are applied:
Adult – post-puberty (we'll ignore a previous very strange conversation we've had in the past);
Female – sex that produces the large gamete for reproduction purposes;
Human – member of the Homo sapien species.
Yes, like with Golriz, we need to see the video fortage to know what happened before we can be absolutely certain.
If good activism involves getting publicity, then wearing the tee shirt has worked.
I posted below my favourite tee shirt but for those who missed it…
WitchB..tchSl.tTerfWoman.
I have had great feedback when I wear it. Its targeting the mysogyny of the term Terf
the tshirt isn't the problem. Although personally I think it's unnecessarily flaming as opposed to something like Adult Human Female, or your one. There's a difference between making statements about our rights as women, and going hard against trans women in the context of transphobia.
Yeah, but there are prices to pay as well. Publicity in and of itself isn't inherently good. I don't particularly blame women for how this is playing out, because our backs have been against the wall. But that doesn't mean there aren't better ways to approach this.
"There's a difference between making statements about our rights as women, and going hard against trans women in the context of transphobia."
Going hard? Transphobia?
And can we have your definition of "transphobia"? Because I am loathe to point out your use of it seems to follow the usual practice of throwing it out in order to smear or derail discussion. I would like to have your definition before making up my mind.
"Publicity in and of itself isn't inherently good. I don't particularly blame women for how this is playing out, because our backs have been against the wall. But that doesn't mean there aren't better ways to approach this."
A woman has been excluded – without provision of evidence of behaviour – from a local foodstore in a small(ish) community. The discussion is whether the response was appropriate, and whether the wearing of such apparel is permitted.
sounds like you are making fair few assumptions yourself (including about my position and views).
I am def doubtful that the tshirt alone was the issue. From having read a number of accounts now it sounds to me like she has been into that store and engaged with that particular staff member a number of times. Her own account is that heated words were exchanged. If you want to wear a tshirt like that and engage with people that the tshirt is designed to confront, then expect situations like this to happen. It's human nature and politics /shrug.
I also agree it's likely that the staff harassed the customer. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
And I agree it's not necessarily activism, although wearing that tshirt in that store is def a political act. I was responding to Dennis' comment, but also watching how it's playing out since, which looks like activism to me. I just think there are problems with doing activism this way. It reminds me of the UK where this kind of activism ends up being what happens because of No Debate. It's effective in its way, but it create problems too.
" …am def doubtful that the tshirt alone was the issue. From having read a number of accounts now it sounds to me like she has been into that store and engaged with that particular staff member a number of times."
… So far, I have read the email from Matthew Mullins as referencing the store's explanation, and the article I have posted which are close to the original sources along with third-party articles in stuff etc.
What other accounts are you referencing?
It is – given that New World is the local store – very likely that she has been into that store and engaged with that particular staff member a number of times. That's commonplace for local customers.
What you imply is that she has deliberately antagonised a staff member without provocation. That is not implicitly claimed, or been proven.
'And I agree it's not necessarily activism, although wearing that tshirt in that store is def a political act."
Buying the t-shirt – if often a political act – as it often supports the organisation that supplies it.
Wearing it, cannot be assumed to be so. And even if it is – it is not an offensive act.
“If you want to wear a tshirt like that and engage with people that the tshirt is designed to confront, then expect situations like this to happen. It’s human nature and politics /shrug.”
A T-shirt “like that”? I’m shaking my head at this comment, weka.
"Buying the
t-shirtMAGA hat is often a political act – as it often supports the organisation that supplies it.Wearing it, cannot be assumed to be so. And even if it is – it is not an offensive act."
fify
Robert, you "fixed it for you" …![smiley smiley](https://cdn2.thestandard.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/ark-wysiwyg-comment-editor/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/regular_smile.png?x42494)
Resorting to implying Trump adjacent perspectives, by the action of wearing a t-shirt.
All good. As long as you gain some satisfaction from this type of comment, why would I want to change you?
But it is unlikely that I will admire you for it, or choose to engage very often.
I'm sure you'll live.
[please stop with the negative personalised comments. They’re unnecessary, and last time there was a major flame war that led to someone being banned. Stick to the politics, thanks – weka]
mod note.
Read your note.
thanks Molly.
"Resorting to implying Trump adjacent perspectives, by the action of wearing a t-shirt."
You've made a wrong assumption, Molly. I made no implication.
@Robert Guyton
Then – did you have a salient point that relates to the conversation?
Molly wrote:
"Then – did you have a salient point that relates to the conversation?"
Well, yes, I did. To borrow (and adjust slightly) weka's words:
“If you want to wear a hat like that and engage with people that the hat is designed to confront, then expect situations like this to happen. It’s human nature and politics /shrug.”
If Luxon was to wear a MAGA hat (in public – he can do what he wants at home) then your comment,
"Buying the t-shirt – if often a political act – as it often supports the organisation that supplies it.
Wearing it, cannot be assumed to be so. And even if it is – it is not an offensive act." (emphasis mine) sounds wrong, imo.
My experience is that there are some very active GC women who are committed to the left, in fact many of the gains made by SUFW have been made by these women. The HC judgement Whitmore vs the Palmerston North CC and section 79(2) in the BDMRR Act 2021 spring to mind. These women do not wish transgender people any harm at all, they just don't believe that it is possible to change sex.
There are certainly some loud voices coming from the right in terms of GC women and I agree that many of these people do not care about trans people or gay people.
Yep. This is the liberal left's own goal. Had GCFs been allowed our voices, we'd be doing it differently.
"There are certainly some loud voices coming from the right in terms of GC women and I agree that many of these people do not care about trans people or gay people."
This is an interesting comment.
Are you suggesting this particular woman is right-wing, and does not care for those with gender identities or gay people?
Or do you have some other NZ GC women in mind? Can you provide their names?
Kellie Jay Keen is the exemplar of someone who is right wing and who communicates in such a way as to imply contempt for trans women.
I'm not going to name NZ GC women because I think the KJK example suffices to get the point, and because I'm not interested in making this personal.
Do you dispute that some gender critical women are homophobic and/or dislike trans women?
I can't think of a right wing gender critical woman in NZ that is homophobic.
I don't believe KJK has expressed homophobic views – OR – any particularly politically right economic perspectives.
The varying understandings of the words "gender critical", "transphobic" and "right-wing" lead to communication difficulties, so I try to avoid them, and only use them now to query the intent of the user so that conversation can move forward.
"Do you dispute that some gender critical women are homophobic and/or dislike trans women?"
That would be a strange position to take, given the undefined group of women who may be called – or refer to themselves – as gender critical. Given the number, I'm sure there are women in there who are guilty of the most heinous crimes, and those that kick dogs. But I haven't been exposed to the homophobia, and I follow a lot of women's rights accounts.
As for the "dislike of trans women"… IF you are aware of the harms of gender ideology, then the tolerance level for men who call themselves women does often diminish.
Given the move away from the already vague DSM-5 diagnosis (https://twitter.com/KnownHeretic/status/1724448571787972885) , the relevance of sex based differences in motivation, intention and impact becomes more important. The likelihood of paraphilias is much higher for men as a motivator, and some women recognise this more than others – whether gender critical or not.
So, I would agree that some women are dismissive of men who call themselves women. I have heard it expressed as akin to people (of all colours) objecting to blackface. It is the idea of blackface that is rejected. Also, when individuals are mentioned, it is usually in reference to a perspective they have expressed, or a boundary violation that has been made. Unfortunately, this is part of the wider discussion and has to be addressed, otherwise we participate in a lesser form of No Debate.
"I have heard it expressed as akin to people (of all colours) objecting to blackface."
That's ridiculous.
People who wear blackface don't yearn to be black, devote their lives to behaving as a "black person", undergo surgery to align physically with a black person, wear their blackface day in and day out, commit to political and social activism to establish credibility as a black person and so on.
The only universal experience of women – is inhabiting a female body.
"People who wear blackface don't yearn to be black, devote their lives to behaving as a "black person", undergo surgery to align physically with a black person, wear their blackface day in and day out, commit to political and social activism to establish credibility as a black person and so on."
All this is selection of regressive stereotypes, and secondary sex characteristics and ASSUMING this is the fundamental aspect of women.
Which is incorrect.
The politicial and social activism is necessary to coerce, shame and bully those who do not indulge in harmful belief systems, where women (and men) are reduced to these secondary characteristics.
and not all trans women yearn to be women, devote their lives to behaving as a "woman", undergo surgery to align physically with a woman, wear their womanface day in and day out, commit to political and social activism to establish credibility as a woman and so on.
In fact, the number of trans women that surgically transition is quite small. Some of that will be access/cost, but I think it's also to do with the degree of disability that goes with surgery (pain and dysfunction). It's also because many trans identified males do in fact want to play at it.
I suspect you are thinking of transsexual males with serious gender dysphoria. The trans umbrella is much broader than that.
In addition there are non-binary males who want to be included in women's space/culture. In the years I have been involved in this debate I've not once seen an explanation for why NB males should have access to women's space and culture.
I don't like the term womanface, and there are good arguments against its use, just not the one you made.
Because what you have just done is such a common dynamic, I'm going to spell it out. Many liberals who have taken a pro-trans politics position against women's rights, have a poor understanding of the politics involved. In this case, the idea that trans women are transexuals with gender dysphoria, rather than understanding that trans now is a very, very broad term, and there is pressure to include all the trans-identified males in the category of women.
When I say that self-ID means any man can say they are a woman at any time and must be accepted as such, this is what I am talking about. It is false to argue that trans-identified males are what you described. What you described is in fact a very small proportion of TIMs.
Further, the reason you don't know this is because of No Debate, and the habitual response of liberal trans allies who simply don't listen to what left wing and other women have been saying for years.
Yes, thanks, weka, I expected a response along the lines of what you've written (well).
"I don't like the term womanface, and there are good arguments against its use, just not the one you made."
Then I defer to those good arguments. I feel the "blackface" comparison is a poor one.
"and not all trans women yearn to be women, devote their lives to behaving as a "woman", undergo surgery to align physically with a woman, wear their womanface day in and day out, commit to political and social activism to establish credibility as a woman and so on."
This is doubtless true; there are always exceptions to a rule 🙂 I was generalising, and knew it.
"In fact, the number of trans women that surgically transition is quite small." That "number" is still greater, I believe, than the number of whites who undergo surgery to become black.
@weka
Your question was: "Do you dispute that some gender critical women are homophobic and/or dislike trans women?"
Not a question about MY personal perspective, and I don't usually atttempt to answer in the place of others, but I thought the question was in good faith and attempted to answer it as such. Without excusing or making apology for perspectives that I don't share.
"I don't like the term womanface, and there are good arguments against its use, just not the one you made."
Neither do I, (and again I understand you are talking to Robert here) but I want to be clear that you asked whether I had seen other women do so, and I have. I can understand their perspective without utilising their use. A labour politician has been stood down in the UK for the crime of "liking" a social media post, making this specific reference, so it was close to hand when looking for examples of women who express distaste with men who declare themselves women:
https://x.com/skippy_0h/status/1746133749019050082?s=20https://x.com/skippy_0h/status/1746133749019050082?s=20
We can discuss whether this is an appropriate response to a trivial action.
Did I? Is there reply confusion happening here? My comment about womanface was a response to RG.
Same. As with much of the war, including the actions of Landy and the person who wrote the article, I see the… tenor or character of much of the current debate as being a result of No Debate and left wing gender critical feminists in particular being excluded from public discussion.
It’s also a consequence of women being abused and ostracised and having their backs against the wall regarding women’s rights.
So I’m not usually surprised and my criticisms of Landy have been more about strategy as much as anything. But again, we have the Landy sisters doing what they do because the NZ GCFs got taken out of the game.
See I think she should have been stood down for political ineptitude (on the face of it, I haven’t looked past your link). If she’s going to be so stupid as to not understand how that tweet would play out politically, she’s a liability to UK Labour. Much the same way as Kerekere became a liability to the Greens, because she couldn’t read the room and her comms were causing problems.
There are ways to push back against gender identity ideology without using hugely problematic tropes like in that tweet.
The standing down because of transphobia causes problems for GC women, who then react against the anti-terfery and ignore the political ineptitude, and that takes us back to the hands we have been dealt and how women will do what they need to irrespective of the damage done along the way.
And of course, it’s entirely possible that the candidate is in fact transphobic. I haven’t had time yet to reply to your comments on that from this morning, but there are a chunk of GC people who simply can’t stand trans women because they can’t stand them. We can see it in the US most obviously with those of the religious right who want transness and gender non-conformity to not exist.
@weka
I edited, probably before your reply to make clear my reference was in regards to your question, and that I understood that you were replying to Robert.
"There are ways to push back against gender identity ideology without using hugely problematic tropes like in that tweet."
Problematic is another word I'm avoiding, so I'm guessing we are going to be in disagreement.
I don't use the blackface analogy, because the two instances are not analogous. Not because it is "problematic".
I can both understand the reasoning behind those who choose to use it, and agree that there are examples of men who absolutely do perform their idea of women in a demeaning way.
I can maintain sympathy for people who have difficulty accepting their sex, without colluding with the delusion that it is possible for them to change their sex.
I can also understand the frustration of women who are confronted with men – who are neither distressed or vulnerable – but gleeful about being able to demonstrate their misogyny or paraphilia in society not only without censure, but with full support of those who consider themselves progressive.
Do so what? Can you please quote me and link to where I said the thing you are referring to, because I’m lost.
So maybe don’t assume my use of ‘problematic’ is the same use you don’t like?
Same. Also, in GC circles (as in all of politics) there is actual racism. Using womanface makes things messy and the current debate is not only incapable of dealing with that, it’s also caused a lot of damage and division.
@weka
"Do so what? Can you please quote me and link to where I said the thing you are referring to, because I’m lost."
Your question was here:
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-13-01-2024/#comment-1984607
… and it was:
And my reply clarifying my recognition of that fact with an example was here:
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-13-01-2024/#comment-1984727
If this is getting too bogged down then I am happy to let it go.
However, I will make note of the fact that while aware of such women, I am also very aware of men who declare themselves to be women, expressing perspectives that both denigrate and demean women and girls. These men not only are not censured for it, they often receive accolades, financial rewards and positions of authority over women or women's advocacy.
There are many such examples. One recent one was the appointment of Munroe Bergdorf as the UN Champion for women. The comments they have made are mild compared to others but show little awareness about women, and disparagement for women who believe sex recognition matters:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12932435/munroe-bergdorf-unchampion-british-women-hate-women.html
From the (extremely long) letter:
"Let’s be clear about something.
Phillippa was trespassed from New World Ōtaki because she is suspected of being a Terf.
She is a Terf.
I am a Terf.
Many, many, thousands of women around the world are Terfs."
Quite strident in her beliefs.
Are you excusing the trespassing women for "stridency" now?
"Men aren't women – even if you squint" is a statement of fact.
"Men are women" – is a unfounded belief – an article of faith.
You posted a link to a letter: "an article written by someone close to the customer"
That woman is quite strident.
"That woman is quite strident."
So?
How do you determine stridency?
What do you propose should be the consequence of stridency?
When you've cleared that up, will you then address the truth of the first statement, and the disconnection from reality that is required to consider it offensive?
Have you not read the letter?
Strident as.
what's wrong with a woman being strident?
Who said being strident is wrong?
perhaps you are unaware that strident is a negative term used about women, especially in politics, to undermine them and their words/actions/mana.
Is it?
I had no idea it had picked up/been assigned a particular value when used to describe women!
How odd!
Not so much odd as everyday sexism
I can see that "hysterical" can be, but "strident"? There's nothing (that I can see) intrinsic in the word that might trigger anguish.
Must be an insider-thing.
Is "intense" everyday sexism?
I think, Robert, that both strident and hysterical are equally potent words when it comes to unfairly attacking an opponent.
With regard the use of inflammatory terms, Anker says:
"I have had great feedback when I wear it. Its targeting the mysogyny of the term Terf"
but Molly's letter-writer and supporter of the t-shirt-wearer says,
"Let’s be clear about something.
Phillippa was trespassed from New World Ōtaki because she is suspected of being a Terf.
She is a Terf.
I am a Terf.
Many, many, thousands of women around the world are Terfs."
Has consensus been arrived at here on TS regarding the word?
I understood "hysterical" to be particularly inflammatory and can see why.
Strident:
presenting a point of view, especially a controversial one, in an excessively forceful way.
"public pronouncements on the crisis became less strident"
Not really seeing how that's offensive but accept weka's advice that it has taken on that quality in some circles (is "circles" okay?)
These last three comments from you Robert again speak to your lack of knowledge in the area. It’s kind of like a conventional farmer trying to have a conversation about growing trees without understanding soil microbia.
Let me break it down.
The problem isn’t that the words trigger anguish. The problem is that they are used as tools by people, usually men, to put women in their place. That’s the difference between personal insult and politics. In class analysis, biological sex is one of the three axes of oppression (along with race/ethnicity and socio-economic class). Sexism is part of the system of oppression of females on the basis of sex, it’s not something that can be understood primarily through a lens of triggering anguish.
The words aren’t intrinsically sexist, the sexism is in the usage. Calling a poem strident has a different implication than calling a woman strident. Most feminists know the sexist used of the word strident. That you don’t see anything sexist about the word is an indication of your lack of awareness.
Thus, you could have called the post intense and not invoked a sexist trope.
The sexism isn’t when women take words in a certain manner, it’s when people, usually men, use words in a certain manner.
Again, it’s not about offence taken, or even given, although some people use words to be both sexist and offensive.
The word terf was coined a long time ago by a trans woman. It’s an acronym: trans exclusionary radical feminist. That in and of itself is a relatively neutral albeit somewhat inaccurate descriptor. But since the gender/sex wars of the last decade, it’s been taken up and used by some liberals, trans activists, trans allies (TA), and Men’s Rights Activists, as a term of abuse.
This equating of terf with a woman bigot/nazi/evil doer, was an intentional strategy, widely promoted. It’s also been used to direct violent misogyny at women online, and the TAs and gender identity ideologists have largely sanctioned this. That’s often left wing men, sanctioning online violence against women because they object to the women’s feminist politics
A lot of women reclaimed the word terf, in the same way that black men reclaimed nigger, or gay men reclaimed queer.
Again, the meaning and intend of the usage of the word itself depends on who is using it and how.
There is no consensus on words on TS that I’m aware of. I moderate the word terf as a term of abuse when I see it, but there is no ban on the word itself, which is why today’s use on TS is fine.
You can probably see the same thing with the word nigger. A black man using the term in the rap song is quite different from a KKK member using it a term of abuse towards black people.
"These last three comments from you Robert again speak to your lack of knowledge in the area. It’s kind of like a conventional farmer trying to have a conversation about growing trees without understanding soil microbia."
If your conventional farmer-who-lacked-knowledge-about-soil microbia was discussing trees, I'd regard it as an opportunity to increase her knowledge, for the betterment of all, rather than lambast her for her ignorance. Not saying that's what's happening here, but there's a hint of it in the air…
ok. I’ve seen farmers react to reasonable explanations as if they were being lambasted. Criticism can be hard to take for sure. This is a political blog with an ethos of robust debate. I can change how I communicate more than I already am, but you’d have to give me some clues. I’ve been feeling I have to really spell it out because I’ve observed a fair amount of missing the point from you on this topic. Too blunt?
"Most feminists know the sexist used (sic) of the word strident. "
Do they?
There's certainly no clue in the word itself, as there is with "hysterical".
I guess it's the responsibility of all people who are not feminists, to research words to determine if they are sexist.
"The sexism isn’t when women take words in a certain manner, it’s when people, usually men, use words in a certain manner."
Given I was unaware of the sexist nature of the word, "strident", how can what you say be true? Do you genuinely feel I was intentionally using it in a sexist manner? Or could it be that it was just taken that way?
rereading the thread, here’s what happened.
FWIW, no, I don’t think you used the term in an intentionally sexist way. If you look back you can clearly see that I have not at any time said you were being sexist. What I did was point out that the term has a sexist usage, because I thought you were unaware of that and you might want to be aware of that in a conversation about women’s rights.
If I think someone on TS is being overtly, intentionally sexist, I usually say so up front.
What would be useful right now is if you would clarify if you accept that the term has a sexist history (despite you not knowing that earlier and not having used it that way).
Jesus wept!
Yes, I can see the term has "the term has a sexist history" – what in God's name would cause you to think I hadn't?
🙂
The intensity that develops around these issues is what interested me; what happened to batting ideas back and forward, for the sake of it?
Sooo serious, we are, here on TS.
tbh, I struggle with your conversational/debate style sometimes. I didn’t see you acknowledge that the term has a sexist history. Your questioning rhetoric often comes across as questioning the validity of what people are saying. It was strange to me that we spent so much time talking about concepts of political language that I think are common place on TS.
As for batting ideas back and forth, maybe for you this is a lighter issue. For some of us it is incredibly serious. For me personally, GC politics is the most important issue we face after climate/ecology (for complex reasons to do with the suppression of women’s knowledge and way of thinking about climate/ecology, and I don’t think it’s coincidence there are very strong pushes to remove women-centre politics at this time). Although the Treaty issues arising are up there too. Same deal.
Yes, TS is a serious place. There’s fun and different kinds of exchanges as well, but pays to pick the topic I think.
"Yes, TS is a serious place. There’s fun and different kinds of exchanges as well, but pays to pick the topic I think."
So, avoid the feminist stuff, eh!
No fun to be had there!
Got it!
You are welcome to talk about feminist issues, and GC pol doesn't just affect women. But you can't expect other people to talk about it with the fun vibe you seem to want, if they don't want to.
I had some great fun with GC feminists last year, and there were times when it was incredibly serious. I really don't see the problem other than maybe you misreading the room or wanting other people to act in a certain way.
"tbh, I struggle with your conversational/debate style sometimes."
You're not alone in that, weka 🙂
Thanks for the reminder (I forget about that).
thanks Robert.
"Men aren't women – even if you squint" is a statement of fact.
No, it's not a fact. "even if you squint" indicates that it's a visual perception issue. That means seeing a man or a woman is the issue. If you squint and see a woman, you see a woman, whether the subject of your attention is or isn't (it might even be a mannequin).
it's a weird tshirt, the slogan doesn't work very well in that you have to think about it rather than getting it immediately.
Might "indicate" a perception issue – but still a statement of fact.
However, people have a problem with the concise and accurate three word descriptor – adult human female – so I don't think clarity improves that cognitive issue.
Maybe an example of an individual/group claiming and using a word to 'defang' it?
At the PYO blueberry farm where I pick, ~10 years ago the unpretentious roadside sign "Blueberries, 9 – 2 pm" had been altered to read "Blueberries are Gay".
That’s funny (to me) to this day – perhaps you had to be there.
😂
Trotter's diagnosis of Labour's mistakes:
Hang on, he oughta already know that Labour always blames any semi-plausible scapegoat. Not in their genes to acknowledge their mistakes – still silent, laying low.
An eastern US event rarer than Halley's comet.
2024 is a special year for periodical cicadas:
The next co-emergence of any kind will not happen for another 13 years!
https://cicadas.uconn.edu/
Actually despite my change of heart politically, congrats to Jacinda and Clarke. And frankly the protesters should bugger off.
Protest any other day, knock yourself out, but its their wedding ffs.
I might add, protesting about Jacinda is a little close to trying to punish her. So I am not endorsing their protest of her
Haven't been keeping up with the news (really not very interested in other people's weddings) – but if there are protesters there – they should be ashamed of themselves.
Yes agreed, good riddance to her and the damage she's done to NZ will take years/decades to undo
But she's left office so it's over, let her enjoy her wedding in peace
That's nice
If anyone responds in a smarmy manner, JillyBee, just ignore them 🙂
Not Robin himself, of course, just his commenting style here – Acting the prat.
Robin's chosen an interesting handle, given the Goodfellow chap who presided over the National Party throughout their Dirty Politics years…
Bless your heart
You're a Goodfellow, Robin.
I know what you mean, Jilly.
Ardern did a great deed in declaring a lock down or two and protecting the most vulnerable amongst us the best she could have done and that was all anybody could have asked for in that time.
I am grateful that she was there when the first outbreaks were around.
It could have been worse. :O
Thats good to hear Jilly Bee.
Actually without wanting to use Jacinda's special day, it does take us back to Pats original piece on here about Dame Anne Salmond column. We were united under the initial phase of Covid, "team of 5 millon". Then quickly became divided. What happened?
IMO ideology took over the Govt agenda. I found it alarming the ideas in the He Puapua report, followed up by things like the Rotorua amendment Bill, the gender self ID select committee, where women were raising very valid concerns and were treated with contempt by mostly Labour women MPs. As there was imo no mandate for these policies (gender self Id, trans in women's sports in particular have very poor support in political polls. What are you supposed to do when the govt you have supported are pushing through legislation that they have not campaigned on? This is a geniune question. I think the coalition might be blamed for pushing the division, but actually they were responding to policy being brought in by Labour. Someone said it takes two to tango. But if someone starts something, sometimes the best option is to push back
" We were united under the initial phase of Covid, "team of 5 millon". Then quickly became divided. What happened?"
Nothing to do with gender, all to do with Covid.
The Covidiots created the divide.
"it's all their fault"
It's funny, when reading Dame Anne Salmond's article and she spoke of divisions and the need to heal them, I thought of Robert and the attitudes behind cookers, now covidiots.
Just kinda pulling the scab off and having a poke at the wound just for the sake of it.
EDIT: Nevermind – found the link to her article!
it's a strange blindspot.
I've sworn off the use of that term, gsays.
Are you struggling to do the same?
"Protest any other day, knock yourself out, but its their wedding ffs."
Then this:
"Actually without wanting to use Jacinda's special day, it does take us back…"
Both from Anker, in the space of an evening.
pushing through legislation that they have not campaigned on
Tbh I didn't really notice they were doing so until quite late. I'm so used to their bumbling style I guess, I did point out quite a few times onsite here that it seemed peculiar they were doing what the media called co-governance without explaining themselves to the public, but it never actually occurred to me that it was cynical.
I did read it as timidity, but that's just usual Labour. I think I may have even given them credit for being progressive about it once or twice. But stealth politics does have an anti-democratic whiff about it. There's a reasonable basis for co-governance, if you view the Treaty as a social contract, so I guess I indulged them on that basis.
The opposition to it also seems reasonable if you see the Treaty as merely history though, and I doubt Dame Anne has explicitly supported Labour's strategy.
May you all have a good day.