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Open mike 13/07/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 13th, 2020 - 138 comments
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138 comments on “Open mike 13/07/2020 ”

  1. ScottGN 1

    Todd Muller on Morning Report just now, trying to stick it to the government for not revealing the location of the quarantine facilities for the 501s. Hopeless hardly seems adequate to describe how useless this man is. In the end I gave up and wandered off to the kitchen to make a cup of tea.

  2. gsays 2

    I had the misfortune to sit through what passes for a current affairs show last night.

    Sunday had a segment on Auckland's water woes. It was nothing more than a pressure piece for 'Give us more water from the Waikato'.

    Not a mention of the, wait for it, 50 million litres a day leaking from Watercare's infrastructure, nobody suggested future-proofing with water storage built into all new dwellings and buildings, water conservation, re-using grey water…

    Part of the problem, in our 'market-driven' world, is the $2,100 a day paid to the CEO of Watercare. This culture of entitlement trickles down through the organisation.

    Linkies: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/420455/auckland-s-leaky-pipes-lose-more-water-than-the-city-saves

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/121216639/cashstrapped-lobbyists-spend-12000-publishing-council-rich-list

    • Wayne 2.1

      Auckland takes 1% of the flow of the Waikato, which is the only big water source in the region. It is the only logical source, irrespective of whether the CEO was paid $1 or $1 million.

      I am sure some of the leakages could be fixed, but some leakage is inherent in any water reticulation system.

      The government has clearly recognised the seriousness of the situation by calling in the consent process.

      If Auckland has serious water rationing problems for several years, because of a refusal to use Waikato water, there would a serious political backlash against whoever is in power both in local and central government.

      • Incognito 2.1.1

        I am sure some of the leakages could be fixed, but some leakage is inherent in any water reticulation system.

        True, but from a PR PoV it’s a bad look when the leakages equal 25% of the average total daily water consumption across Auckland. In addition, burst water pipes spout up all the time and people washing their precious pricey car with a bucket of water may be fined. The least the CEO could do is manage an effective PR campaign. From my perspective, he’s been sitting on his hands.

        • Sacha 2.1.1.1

          There are international benchmarks for acceptable levels of waste in urban water systems. Where are the journalists asking how Watercare stacks up on those?

          • Incognito 2.1.1.1.1

            Ta. Didn’t know that. I’d make for a lousy journalist 🙁

            • Foreign waka 2.1.1.1.1.1

              Hi Incognito

              Webpage as below, table 2 is the one I think that has the interesting data.

              https://www.researchgate.net/publication/242515900_International_Benchmarking_of_Leakage_from_Water_Reticulation_Systems

              • Andre

                Ok, so there's a bit over half a million houses in Auckland. For the sake of putting together a hand-wavy argument, lets say the number of commercial and industrial water connections makes up for the number of multiple dwellings fed from one connection, so Watercare has half a million connections.

                That would mean Watercare is responsible for half a million connection, so they are losing 100 litres per day per connection. Their minimum pressure standard from memory is 2.9 bar (29m of head) at the connection, but most are well above that. The international benchmark at 5 bar (50m head) of pressure is less than 125 litres per day leakage per connection is considered excellent with no action required.

                I also vaguely recall reading somewhere that Watercare's leakage proportion was very low compared to other cities in New Zealand. Having trouble finding it, tho.

              • Incognito

                Ta

                A quick search showed up very interesting documents in relation to Watercare. I don’t have the time to dig into it though. From what I gleaned, Watercare doesn’t meet three of its SOI measures and leakage is one of these.

      • gsays 2.1.2

        So.. because there is still 99% of the Waikato left to 'take' there is no issues around the lack of imagination shown by the PTB?

        Bill McKay on RNZ this morning talked about solving water issues, in particular Auckland.

        This last century thinking; pay someone more than $ 3/4 M to tell folk to conserve water and stop a handful of house cleaners, meanwhile letting the infrastructure dilapidate, has to stop.

        • Andre 2.1.2.1

          Wayne is way overstating the proportion of the Waikato's flow taken. At the moment, Watercare can take about 125 million litres per day at Tuakau, which works out to 1.4 cubic metres per second. The average flow at Tuakau is 340 cu metres/ second, and the minimum is governed by a minimum of 80 cu m/s discharged at Karapiro plus what flows in between Karapiro and Tuakau for a likely minimum around 120 cu m/ sec. So Watercare currently takes less than 0.5% of the average flow, and just over 1% of the minimum flow.

          It's also worth noting that the Tongariro Power Scheme in the 80's increased the Waikato's flow by an average of 29 cu m/sec year-round from diverting the headquarters of streams and rivers that used to flow into the Rangitikei, Whangaehu and Whanganui rivers.

          Watercare's maximum desired take of 350 million litres/day works out to 4.05 cu m/sec, just over 1% of the Waikato's average flow and about 15% of the diverted flow that was robbed from those other rivers. Note that Watercare's proposal is to only take their maximum allowable at times of higher flow and they propose to reduce their take when Waikato river levels are low. So their proposed take really is of less than minor impact on the river.

        • Wayne 2.1.2.2

          I am opposed to all the ideas about roof water and grey water. Go down that path and water borne diseases will increase. Children playing in water, drinking it, etc. Way too big a risk.

          Having said that, in an old established suburb, I do have a 15,000 litre tank collecting rain water for garden use, and grew up on a farm with roof rainwater.

          Nevertheless, I do think a huge amount of care is necessary around potable water. The public health issues are way too important.

          Especially when Watercare can readily process Waikato water to potable water quality.

          • OnceWasTim 2.1.2.2.1

            'Moreover', while I use my 15,000 litre tank to water the lillies, I wouldn't be at all comfortable with the average Joe doing the same sort of thing. OR indeed having the nouse to distinguish the potable from the piss.

            No, no, Mrs Wayne and I were thinking about it just this past-noon as she was running up my latest leisure suit on the Singer. FAR too risky she said! Wayne! – we really do need to educate these people! Do you think we could start a charity? I know Father – do you think Michelle might help?

            • David Mac 2.1.2.2.1.1

              Do you want Wayne to stop posting here? I don't. Somebody with a contrary view to yours is not your enemy, they are a reason to engage. But you're not, you're just doing an average job of slagging the guy.

              Thanks for being here Wayne, I like to put what you have to say into my blender.

              • Incognito

                heart

              • I've been putting what Wayne says into my blender for years. Not just on TS, but during his time in Parliament and subsequent media gigs.

                And no, I love reading Wayne's comments. They're often valuable historical gems and a way of understanding how the hell we all got here.

                It'd be nice if he had a word with the current crop of dirty politicians (which he is not). I'm pretty bloody sure that anything I say is not going to prevent Wayne, or any other politician (even some from the new batshit crazy political fundy parties) from expressing themselves.

                Peace, love and goodwill to all mankind. And to the Goose and the Gander and all God's creatures.

                Amen

                • Incognito

                  It is not just about Wayne commenting here. It’s not even about ex-politicians commenting here. The vitriol here is so toxic at times that I cannot bear to breathe.

                  • I understand Cogs and agree. Fully maate, fully. I'm tired of it all really especially as life is running out and expiration nears – which is why I'm more inclined to push back. It's probably better I resume my former perversion which is to just watch and wonder, rather than have to watch whether or not I've put something in the David Mac blender, or on the Geoarge Foreman grill.

                  • Dennis Frank

                    vitriol here is so toxic at times

                    I was an ultrasensitive child, so it was obviously necessary for my dad to thrash that out of me. To him. 🙃

                    Consequently I grew a tough skin around my ego. But it didn't cancel the inner child. Just gave me more of a range of emotional responses to injustice. But I didn't start expressing my feelings in written words until middle age.

                    What I notice more nowadays is the emotional content of blog commentary, and how few participants seem to be able to sense that accurately. I think the medium is the message here: it emasculates communication. Talking has a body-language component that goes missing here. Eyes are particularly relevant senders of signals! Facial expressions. Gestures.

                    Could be some of us have a natural tendency to subjectify written opinions too, so as to cause us inappropriate emotional reactions. Inasmuch as the writer had no intent to trigger such. What can we do about it? Nothing much. Just try to consider any knee-jerk reaction & ascertain if it really is appropriate to the cause.

                    Biological signalling is a large part of herding, eh? Social media wildfires are the consequence…

    • Janet 2.2

      I had just returned from an overnight stay in Auckland and while there had debated with family members their idea that Aucklanders should be allowed to dip into the great Waikato river . I pointed out that there was no water tank catching their rainwater – water to use for cleaning cars , watering gardens , filling the swimming pool and spa and showering. All sections large enough to have a small garden should have a water tank storing the water off their roofs. Catching this water will also prevent another problem now prevalent in places like Switzerland. So much of the land is now covered in hard surfaces that every thing rapidly flash floods after heavy rainfall. Every Aucklander must start thinking about what they can do towards a more sustainable Auckland.

      • Maurice 2.2.1

        Rain water tanks in Auckland required a consent fee and or building consent till June this year. The resource consent fee, that ranges from $600 to $5000 depending on complexity has been waived – but the consent is still required.

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300041582/auckland-drought-rainwater-tank-fee-slashed-to-encourage-water-collection

        "Residents interested in installing a tank will still need to comply with resource, building and health and safety codes, and use licensed installation professionals where required."

        Is it any wonder that very few tanks have been installed?

        • lprent 2.2.1.1

          While I was reading your comment I was considering how feasible it'd be to tank my roof.

          I'm in an apartment block that has 3 levels each of 20 one bedroom apartments on strata titles. Just thinking about the legal complexities is sufficient to realise that it is probably impossible.

          There would have to be a hell of a water tank somewhere in the two parking levels, a large set of pumps and a lot of power to pump it up back up about 20 metres vertically to the top level toilets and showers.

          And this is one of the medium apartment blocks in the densest population areas in Auckland – the central suburbs. But you find these kinds of apartment blocks all over Auckland these days. Sure some older suburbs could put in a lot of roof catchment grey water. But it'd probably largely be a waste of effort.

          Most of the new housing is quite high density and doesn't really have the ground area to put in tanks.

          • Pingao 2.2.1.1.1

            For the more regular house, there are narrow rectangular rain tanks which don't have much of a footprint and can be fitted adjacent to a building but I'm not sure I've ever seen them in NZ.

            The biggest hurdle will be the dangers of cross-connection to the mains water supply (bringing the risk of backflow, etc. and the contamination of the public water supply) – which is why, of course, they would need a consent and to be installed by a licensed plumber.

        • joe90 2.2.1.2

          My brother installed two 5000L bladders under his house. Somehow, he neglected to tell anyone.

      • gsays 2.2.2

        Every Aucklander must start thinking about what they can do towards a more sustainable Auckland.

        I agree, plenty of imagination and creativity needed. Not renowned in these $ 3/4 M men.

  3. The opposition is clearly clutching at any straw now ; expect more as the weeks progress. Should we be amazed that the combined talents of Janet Wilson and Mathew Hooten have produced such a fiasco ? One Sunday paper article had Muller stating "in my perspective" 5 times ; then Nikky Kaye used the same words on a Jack Tame interview yesterday.

    • tc 3.1

      They're still getting it easy from their media mates IMO. Rimmer contradicted himself on taxes and was not put to the sword on that huge gaff by Jack Tame yesterday.

      Muller's being allowed to spin with Kaye/Adams doubling down. A half decent media would eviserate them every time they fronted as the BS is palpable and everyone knows it.

      If you seek a path away from DP why hire the hoots man Toddy ? Their course appears set now, wonder how many swing voters tag along.

    • Morrissey 3.2

      One Sunday paper article had Muller stating "in my perspective" 5 times…

      It's worse than that. Muller actually says "Look, from my perspective…"

      The poor bloke is channeling the Dipton Double Dipper. no

  4. Andre 4

    I've been watching carefully for credible stories of people getting COVID twice. Here's the second one I've come across.

    This one scares me more because the patient apparently suffered much worse the second time around than the first – a feature shared with a few other nasties like dengue. It also may have implications for vaccine development and administration. Nobody wants a repeat of one of the very few recent examples of a vaccine screw-up* like Dengvaxia in the Philippines.

    Not to mention this also points to the possibility this disease will become something we will have to learn how to live with and manage rather than something we may be able to eliminate worldwide.

    https://www.vox.com/2020/7/12/21321653/getting-covid-19-twice-reinfection-antibody-herd-immunity

    *Dengue is often much worse the second time than the first. Dengvaxia appeared to be very successful in preventing a second infection among those that had already had it once – but when administered to someone that hadn't already had one bout of dengue it appeared to make it more likely they would suffer really badly if they went on to actually get dengue. The mistake made was to administer the vaccine to everyone without checking to see if they had already had dengue or not.

    • Rosemary McDonald 4.1

      *Dengue is often much worse the second time than the first. Dengvaxia appeared to be very successful in preventing a second infection among those that had already had it once – but when administered to someone that hadn't already had one bout of dengue it appeared to make it more likely they would suffer really badly if they went on to actually get dengue. The mistake made was to administer the vaccine to everyone without checking to see if they had already had dengue or not.

      (And such a shame that it was mostly children who died…https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/article/3006712/philippines-suspicion-dengue-vaccine-linked)

      But, but, Andre…surely all vaccines brought to market 'safe and effective'???

      Be careful mate…merely bringing this example of the surprising number of vaccine whoopsie incidents to the fore will earn you an anti-vaxxer/pro- plague label.

      • Andre 4.1.1

        Rosemary, some of the reasons you come across as an anti-vaxxer include the way you consistently misrepresent situations by grossly inflating any negative aspect and remove the remainder of the big picture, present off-the-cuff anecdotes and feels and reckons from distressed individuals as established medical fact (when they really are the opposite of established fact), don't acknowledge when off-the-cuff reckons are disproven by careful study of large datasets, make gross misrepresentations of positions taken by other people and organisations etc etc.

        (BTW, nobody with any credibility claims all vaccines are absolutely 100% safe and 100% effective from the moment they are launched – it is well acknowledged that effectivity is less than 100%, sometimes a lot less for vaccines that are nonetheless still worthwhile, and that there are people for whom specific vaccines may be contraindicated)

        • Rosemary McDonald 4.1.1.1

          Rosemary, some of the reasons you come across as an anti-vaxxer include the way you consistently misrepresent situations by grossly inflating any negative aspect and remove the remainder of the big picture, present off-the-cuff anecdotes and feels and reckons from distressed individuals as established medical fact (when they really are the opposite of established fact), don't acknowledge when off-the-cuff reckons are disproven by careful study of large datasets, make gross misrepresentations of positions taken by other people and organisations etc etc.

          You need to link to where I have committed all of these crimes.

          I always provide links to research or media articles. The fact that they are not from sources you reckon are credible (like, I assume, the BMJ? https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11-06-2020/#comment-1719452) is immaterial. You might want to consider widening your reading horizon?

          And just because you have failed to engage with anyone in this community on any meaningful level, you have no right whatsoever to dismiss the accounts I have (with some trepidation) shared here of families of significantly neurologically impaired children who have very good reason to believe a reaction to a routine vaccine caused this damage.

          There are precious few mainstream outlets for these 'feels and reckons' because of folks like yourself…blind adherents at the Altar of the Omnipotent Pharma.

          And not a single hint of any shred of grief from you for the children dead due to the dodgy Dengue vaccine.

          Next time you're swimming around in the 'large datasets' Andre, confident they more accurately represent the safety and efficacy of vaccines, you might want to pause for a nanosecond or two and consider that the number consist of individual cases. These individuals are fellow human beings. With feelings. And opinions.

        • xanthe 4.1.1.2

          Andre Your use of the term anti-vaxxer illuminates you as a person who would rather win by bullying. It does not say anything at all about the person attempting dialogue with you

          • Ed 4.1.1.2.1

            Bumping into the same issue with Andre because I commended Pilger's film about China.

            The emotive language employed so far includes :

            'truly loathsome totalitarian dictator thugs'

            'blinded by their hatred'

            'peculiar echo-chamber'.

            Evidence to support the vitriol used.

            None.

          • Bearded Git 4.1.1.2.2

            Xan….you will see Rosemary used the term anti-vaxxer first…Andre was just replying to it.

            I see no problem at all using this description….the (usually nutters) who oppose vaccination have done countless harm.

      • Treetop 4.1.2

        Carers dismayed by new disability funders is a title on RNZ news an hour ago.

        You might be interested.

        I am having to calm down about how ACC do not follow a review decision and think that they can use a branch medical advisor, so useless and 2 months wasted on more mismanagement.

        • Rosemary McDonald 4.1.2.1

          Carers dismayed by new disability funders is a title on RNZ news an hour ago.

          Thanks Treetop. Heard that this morning and am a tad confused. Not a very good piece of reporting at all. The 'reforms' actually went ahead in April….and I am pleased to say that in our case the 'transition' was almost seamless. Bureaucratic and clumsy, largely because of Lockdown, but prompt. Some of the ease for us is probably due to the fact that we were transitioning from nothing in the way of funded suport to something. The people on Natrad this morning were already being paid but under the iniquitous and hideous Funded Family Care…which discriminated against carers like myself.

          Natrad should have done better.

          • Treetop 4.1.2.1.1

            Correction with the title I used.

            Carers dismayed by new disability funding model.

            Pleased to hear that this is progress for your situation. I can see some debate occurring for a lot of families who already have enough on their plate.

          • Sacha 4.1.2.1.2

            https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/421077/carers-dismayed-by-new-disability-funding-model

            Story seems clear enough that its angle is driven by people with impaired thinking being required to take on the responsibilities of employers – one of the problems many families complained about with FFC. That whole part of the Ministry seems to need flushing.

            • Rosemary McDonald 4.1.2.1.2.1

              Sacha, IF has been used to fund supports for people with impaired thinking for yonks now. Often a parent acts as an agent and manages the funding on behalf of their impaired child. Only difference is that now the IF can be used to pay a family carer. Tbh, I have often struggled to grasp the issue some of these parents have with their children being their employer. In most cases these individuals are perfectly capable of making the choice of having that particular person provide their funded supports and the hands on administrative stuff is handled by the Host agency. This is how IF works, and how payng family carers through a contraced provider works. Safeguards are (theoretically) in place.

              The problem is the actual original Funded Family Care (a curse on it and it's midwives at the Misery)…I understand some folk were desperate enough to sign up to it (an lets be honest here…barely 1/4 of the potential 1600 actually hopped on board) but it was obvious it was designed to create exactly that level of conflict and tension. It is a shit of a scheme devised by malevolent arseholes.

              • Treetop

                Not only an issue with children being an employer, children need to have a guardian/agent and intellectually disabled as well.

                Not sure if MSD is still the Guardian when children are removed.

                Thank you for your comment to Sacha, you know the issue well.

      • gsays 4.1.3

        That's a grim read, thanks Rosemary.

        Corporate greed, dodgy politicians, 'creative' data and all those deaths.

        I got dengue in Cambodia a couple of years ago. Fortunately I was back home before it came on.

        A horrible time and it seems to have taken a bit of capacity, in terms of energy.

    • joe90 4.2

      When it rains, it pours.

      JAKARTA, Indonesia — To slow the spread of the coronavirus, governments issued lockdowns to keep people at home. They curtailed activities that affected services like trash collection. They tried to shield hospitals from a surge of patients.

      But the cascading effects of these restrictions also are hampering efforts to cope with seasonal outbreaks of dengue, an incurable, mosquito-borne disease that is also known as “breakbone fever" for its severely painful symptoms.

      Southeast Asian countries like Singapore and Indonesia have dealt with concurrent outbreaks of dengue and coronavirus this year. In Brazil, where there are over 1.6 million COVID-19 infections, at least 1.1 million cases of dengue have been reported, with nearly 400 deaths, according to the Pan American Health Organization.

      Dengue cases are likely to rise soon with the start of seasonal rains in Latin American countries like Cuba, Chile and Costa Rica, as well as the South Asian countries of India and Pakistan.

      http://archive.li/yRrLR (nyt)

    • Gabby 4.3

      From an elimination pov, isn't the crucial thing whether people stay infectious after recovery? If not, isolation will still eliminate it.

      • Andre 4.3.1

        For a place that's feasible to operate as a closed environment, like New Zealand, yes it's true that elimination is possible as long as people are not infectious after recovery.

        But for the world as a whole eradication simply isn't feasible if people can be re-infected. Hell, we haven't yet eradicated measles or polio, even though both those diseases have cheap, high effectiveness vaccines, re-infection doesn't occur, and neither have the sneaky habit of asymptomatic/presymptomatic infectiousness. Because breakouts happen so easily and quickly from any small pockets of disease.

        • McFlock 4.3.1.1

          also animal reservoirs can be an issue for many diseases, e.g. Tb or ebola in many wild mammals. That also limits the possibilities for eradication.

        • Gabby 4.3.1.2

          So we'd have to maintain a selective travel policy, border checks and isolation.

          • Andre 4.3.1.2.1

            That's the worst case, yes.

            But a vaccine isn't the only option. Antiviral medications for treatment and/or prophylaxis are also possibilities that are being extensively worked on.

            We should probably also consider getting used to the idea that maybe the best we'll do is something that reduces the impact of COVID down to say a nasty flu – something we routinely accept. It seems every ten or fifteen years I get laid up for a couple weeks or so with a flu, despite getting vaccinated. If a vaccine or reasonably priced medication were developed that reduced the impact of COVID down to a similar level, then I'd be of the view that that is good enough to open back up.

    • I Feel Love 4.4

      saw an American Dr say about 30-50% of those that get better after being in hospital with the covid suffer neurological damage, breathing issues, memory loss etc, and these are just issues they know about in the last few months. She also said the 30-50% could be on the low side. She had to say again, "this is not a hoax".

      • Andre 4.4.1

        For sure there's a lot of widespread long-term damage. From the stuff I'm seeing in the science sites I follow and from rellies that got it and are involved in treating patients, I'm kinda coming to the impression that SARS-CoV-2's favourite target is blood vessels. Which is why it can have such widespread effects.

        If that's what is actually happening, then it shows up first in the respiratory system because that's how it transmits and it's where the virus first touches down. The lucky ones are those whose immune systems are able to stop it there before it goes further and gets to its preferred tissues in the body.

  5. Ed 5

    A different narrative for COVID 19 in Aotearoa

    Over the past few days, an excellent article has been bubbling away below the surface on the Standard and other left leaning websites in the country. Glen Johnson, a New Zealander ‘who has worked as a foreign correspondent in the MENA region for more than a decade’, penned this opinion piece on Al Jazeera.

    His observations on the behaviour of the National Party has been gone over before. In this analysis, I want to look at an aspect of his article that may have been missed. Under the section ‘Omission and the economy’, Glen Johnson makes the following important observation on two key omissions in our corporate media’s coverage of the story:

    “The opposition, business elements and an instinctively conformist media moved quickly to set the agenda, artificially narrowing the parameters of public discourse.

    There were, for example, no deep-dive stories into the state of the health system, eviscerated by aggressive neo-liberalism since the late 1980s, yielding the country acutely vulnerable to COVID-19.

    Little was said about our hyper-globalised societies' increasingly fraught relationship with nature, of which COVID-19 is a symptom.”

    The Standard needs to shine a light on a different narrative to the one we are given by the mainstream press. We should be focusing on the 2 stories Glen Johnson mentions.

    1. The state of New Zealand’s health system. This excellent report by Branko Marcetic describes how The Key government ‘slashed health funding’.

    2. “Our hyper-globalised societies' increasingly fraught relationship with nature”.

    George Monbiot wrote an article in the Guardian in March headed 'Covid-19 is nature's wake-up call to complacent civilisation.' To summarise, his conclusion is that ‘we begin to see ourselves, once more, as governed by biology and physics, and dependent on a habitable planet.’ George is not alone; UN Secretary-General António Guterres has stated that the COVID-19 pandemic is an ‘unprecedented wake-up call’ for all inhabitants of Mother Earth. Jonathan Safran Foer have explained why 'factory farms are breeding grounds for pandemics.'

    Caitlin Johnston is an excellent independent journalist who writes prolifically on a variety of issues. A key focus of her writing is that we are drip fed a daily narrative to shape our thinking. Most recently she has written a fine passage entitled ‘As Long As Mass Media Propaganda Exists, Democracy Is A Sham.'

    The recent collusion between the New Zealand media and the Dirty Politics brigade of the National Party shows how our own democracy is under threat as well.

    We need to change the conversation.

    • Treetop 5.1

      I am for a Covid-19 minister who has the right clinical background to make sure there is a ready health system and to remind the population that history does repeat regardless of what is known scientifically in the present.

      Looks like 8 billion on the planet is not sustainable.

      • Ed 5.1.1

        1. Adopting a socialist policy towards health would solve the problem.

        2. Several things are unsustainable.

        a. Capitalism.
        b. Consumerism.
        c. Animal Agriculture

  6. ianmac 6

    Campbell interviews Nicky Hager this morning. Interesting context put forward re Dirty Tricks.

    "What was actually going on was that they were looking for political ammunition. The reason why they wanted people's personal Covid patient information is because maybe there were more of those women driving down the island, maybe there was more stuff like that. and that had been the one thing that had dented the Labour Party's polls, their unbeatable polls."

    Hager also suggested National members would still be doing it if it wasn't for Ms Boag sending the information to Mr Walker who "did something very unexpected" in sending it to media.

    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/covid-patient-info-scandal-reeks-organised-campaign-national-author-nicky-hager-argues?auto=6171093733001

    • Ed 6.1

      I hope the media do not let Woodhouse off the hook.

    • Red Blooded One 6.2

      And Josie Pagani later on Breakfast, what's with her "Not Dirty Politics" and "Labour does it too" rhetoric. She's been in the anti-Labour pro National Camp for ages now and should be marketed accordingly.

      • aj 6.2.1

        Josie Pagani – Hard core Blairite, and just like the UK only wanted her team to win if it's the 'right' team

      • Ed 6.2.2

        Josie Pagani's husband is John Pagani.

        John Pagani is New Zealand Oil and Gas's corporate services general manager.

        I am predicting she did not make that Declaration of interest on Breakfast.

      • Anne 6.2.3

        Josie Pagani was dumped by the Labour Party because of her constant attacks back in the DP days. She also had an unhealthy association with the DP operators at the time including Cameron Slater.

        She's acting out of revenge.

      • RosieLee 6.2.4

        Maybe she's lining up to take over where the Boagy woman left off.

  7. ianmac 7

    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/q-and-a/episodes/s2020-e21

    And Nicky Kaye fronts up on Q&A, but not Muller!! Was she credible? Not really (am I biased?) and Jack was quite excited by what he called the "hypocrisy" of Woodward.

    And the Panel on Q&A interesting as well.

    • bwaghorn 7.1

      Didnt watch much of it, but seeing kaye whine "that's not fair jack " was priceless . I've waited years for the nat scum to get caught red handed and am loving every second .

  8. aj 8

    Kaye on and Muller hiding because he's a poor liar. I don't think telling straight porkies on camera is in his DNA, although he's ok with the general half-truths and selective quoting required in day-to-day wool pulling.

    • Adrian 8.1

      I hate to give the bastards any advice but Munters Slack-Jawed-Yokel impressions anytime he is asked a question on TV only tends to heighten the feeling that his thinking is at best slow or at the very least a few synapses short of a circuit.

      • The Al1en 8.1.1

        Cleetus he may be, but it's more likely the same thing that afflicted the woeful David Shearer, in that he has to think of what to say before answering so it won't drop him in it further down the track.

        It looks awful and fools no one in TV land.

  9. aj 9

    what he called the "hypocrisy" of Woodward.

    Woodhouse. Woodward was the good guy . . .

    • swordfish 9.1

      Ahhh, Callan … Classic Series.

      Underappreciated today.

      Woodward = one of the key celebrity-endorsers of the British Labour Party at the 1970 General Election … he was so popular from Callan that they actually built some of their campaign material directly around him … though by the early 80s his sympathies had moved on to the SDP-Liberal Alliance.

    • ianmac 9.2

      OOps. Sorry Michael Woodhouse.

  10. swordfish 10

    • Dennis Frank 10.1

      Usually hard to tell who's pulling the strings, eh? Like how Mossad jumps onto an Arab conspiracy & drives it onto a trajectory that is in Israel's national interests. The important thing is to fuel the thing, get the conspirators high on their own collective sense of destiny & machismo, then play them to win the meta-game while they believe they are winning their own game.

      Since the average intelligence of Nat MPs is always low (similar to Labour) anyone who's a cut above learns to herd them. Then it's just a question of competing with the other sheep-dogs to get the sheep through the right gate…

      • Drowsy M. Kram 10.1.1

        Dennis, is the average intelligence of National and Labour party MPs "always low"?

        Maybe I’ve misunderstood, but if that's what you’re claiming, then roughly how low do you reckon? "Low" implies 'below average' to me, but maybe you’re indulging in provocative hyperbole – you know, the sort of thing Nat MPs were indulging in with their Covid-baiting, before they came a cropper.

        For a chap of at least average intelligence, you don't half write some nonsense, IMHO.

        • Dennis Frank 10.1.1.1

          provocative hyperbole

          No problem whatsoever to plead guilty to that! Well, usually, but on this occasion it was an oblique reference to how representative democracy works when driven by identity politics: MPs get voted in when sufficient voters identify with them. So the systems selects average intelligence outputs.

          That said, I take the point that perception prevails over reality most of the time nowadays, so the performance of parliamentarians typically produces a widely-held view that MPs are thicker than most folks. So anyone who comments on politics and the nonsense it produces will inevitably write nonsense if they try to be accurate in their descriptions. We could call it the Frank/Kram paradox…

          • Drowsy M. Kram 10.1.1.1.1

            In a representative democracy, should the average intelligence of parliamentarians reflect society's average? Maybe Ardern and Bridges/Muller cancel each other out.

    • weka 10.2

      I've been wondering this too. Not so much about Collins but what the long term strategy is. If MH is as smart as he appears to be, I doubt he is trying to win this year's election. They will be looking at the longer term plan to rebuild National and how to regain power.

      Maybe Hooton has fucked up here, but I think it's really unwise for the left to assume he is stupid or not good at what he does.

      • Sacha 10.2.1

        Must be some big tussles going on behind the scenes. Hoots is just the hired help in that context. But hired by whom is a great question.

  11. I Feel Love 11

    The Media Watch RNZ thing was good, Brent Edwards giving the media a bit of a warning, to not let National use them for politicking, RNZ dispute this, but good on them for allowing the other point of view. They really should ask their sources, where they got their source. If a polly offers them confidential information, maybe try and find out where it came from, or be journalistic and find a source to back up the evidence. It just seems to me they took Walker at his word, and his word alone "this wasn't password protected and was available to anyone", which was quite simply, a lie, which they reported.

    Clark takes his kids to the beach, days and days of screaming headlines, Nats & acolyte (s) potentially break laws, dodgy creepy ethics, and nothing, even though some journalists are writing very good, factual pieces, it seems it's the editors letting the Nats off.

  12. Sacha 12

    FFS, can people please add a link when you are discussing or quoting from a media story. Not rocket surgery.

    • mauī 12.1

      Indeed, particularly odious. I believe there was a discussion about this kind of behaviour on RNZ National over the weekend…

    • Red Blooded One 12.2

      Hi Sacha, Not sure Rocket Surgery is a thing, but for some of us copying and pasting clips might as well be Rocket Science. There don't appear to be clips of the Breakfast show interview with Josie Pagani that I mentioned earlier (without going to Facebook, no thank you). I tried copying and pasting, unsuccessfully, the whole show (Pagani is 1:15:00 in) but couldn't do it, so my apologies if I am one of the people who have ground your gears this morning.

  13. Dennis Frank 13

    Still looking good for Biden: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/12/politics/texas-swing-state-2020-election-polls/index.html

    New CBS News/YouGov polls show President Donald Trump is in trouble in three states he won in 2016. He's tied with former Vice President Joe Biden in Arizona (46% to 46%), a state he won by four points in 2016. Trump's down 48% to 42% in Florida, a state he took by a point in 2016.

    But it's the third state, Texas, where the eye popping result comes from. It's Trump 46% to Biden's 45%, a result well within any margin of error. It's pretty clear looking at the data that Texas is a swing state in the 2020 election. The 2020 campaign could be the first time Democrats captured the Lone Star State in a presidential election since 1976.

    The CBS News/YouGov poll is not an outlier over the last month. There have been eight polls released publicly since the beginning of June. The result is that Biden and Trump are basically tied, with Biden up by a mere 0.3 points in Texas.

    Four years ago, Hillary Clinton lost Texas by nine points. She was the first Democratic presidential candidate to lose the state by only single digits since the 1990s. If you look nationally, you see Biden is up about 10 points compared to Clinton's two point popular vote win.

  14. observer 14

    The government's chosen not to disclose the location of the hotel used for the deportees coming from Aus. Concerned about privacy, vigilantes, fearmongers.

    Fine in theory. But in practice … it will leak sooner or later. Hard to keep that quiet.

    Will backfire if Minister or even PM is asked "can you confirm …?" by a reporter who knows the answer already.

    • Sacha 14.1

      There is a really obvious reason to keep the location secret, so no it will not be a problem for govt representatives sticking to that line with media. Unlike weaselling from Nats trying to keep their stories straight.

    • Peter 14.2

      Should be down Queenstown way I reckon. Very welcoming folk down there.

  15. Fireblade 15

    At Dr Ashley Bloomfield's 1pm media stand-up today, he was asked why the Helicopter Trust would receive Covid-19 patient details.

    Bloomfield said that all emergency helicopter services have received Covid patient information from day one of the outbreak. He said it is a well established process to protect emergency services staff. He also said patient details are confidential and are sent to secure email addresses by the Ministry. He wouldn't answer any further questions due to the inquiry.

  16. Stephen D 16

    Steve Braunias on the feelings in West Auckland.

    Apprehensive seems to sum it up.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=12346626

  17. Ed 17

    In 2010 the Law Commission’s Issues Paper Alcohol in Our Lives found that harmful drinking had become a source of serious social problems in New Zealand.

    The Issues Paper described the range of problems associated with harmful alcohol consumption in New Zealand and set out some of the measures that should have been used to help curb those problems and concludes with some preliminary ideas on law reform. There were 5 key recommendations:

    1. raise alcohol prices.

    2. raise the purchase age.

    3. reduce alcohol accessibility.

    4. reduce alcohol advertising and sponsorship.

    5. increase drink-driving countermeasures.

    Governments since have ignored the recommendations. New Zealand’s governments are beholden to the liquor industry.

    Doug Sellman, Jennie Connor, Geoff Robinson, Sam McBride and Tony Farrell wrote this report describing the failure of the 2008 to 2017 government.

    Clearly the South African government is not beholden to the liquor industry.

    Ramaphosa re-imposed a night-time curfew and also a ban on alcohol sales barely six weeks after buying booze had become legal again.

    “As we head towards the peak of infections, it is vital that we do not burden our clinics and hospitals with alcohol-related injuries,” Ramaphosa said.

  18. aj 18

    Each passing day in the last two months vindicates more strongly the health advice given to our government, the actions taken, the quality of leadership (excepting National) and the community response from our people. Those noisey few who constantly took cheapshots are getting pretty quiet now as it becomes obvious how tricky it is to balance health and economy. New South Wales has a big fight now to avoid joining Victoria in a return to strong restrictions. I wish them the best and want to give a shout out to everyone working hard for us at our borders.

  19. ianmac 19

    On World rising virus infections it occurred to me that the USA has high numbers and yet it is in high summer. Didn't they forecast that the winter would be worse? Hell!

  20. Ed 20

    Ben Thomas, right wing spin doctor and friend of Hooton on the Panel.

    Bet you Wallace Chapman does nothing to challenge his spin.

    • Ed 20.1

      Which is Wallace Chapman shilling for the ACT Party?

      Susan St.John destroys the ACT Party's economic policies.

      Wallace sounds like a card carrying member of the party and a close mate of Seymour's.

      • georgecom 20.1.1

        wowser Seymour and the ACT wowser party wants to stop you enjoying a beer or a glass of wine. Beneficiaries are going to get a payment card under their policy released today. So the wowsers plan to create an extra layer of bureaucracy and dump the costs on to the hard working NZ taxpayer. No doubt Wowsermour will be looking to contract out the administration of the scheme to the private sector where some company can clip the ticket and take some more money out of tax payers pockets. Simon Bridges Todd Mullers Chris Luxon Todd Mullers 'Bonfire on Bureaucracy' can start with this costly bureaucratic wowserism.

        [Fixed the same error in user name]

  21. ianmac 21

    Wallace just said on the Panel that the SFO is opening an investigation into the Labour Party funding. Bluddy hell!

  22. joe90 22

    These folk have a 59% chance of someone in their group being infected with Covid19.

    • McFlock 22.1

      Wasn't the Queenstown cluster just before the lockdown a cattle industry conference? Sheesh.

    • I Feel Love 22.2

      South Florida going crazy ape balls, numbers through the roof, hospitals full, and that's not even accounting the lag, spike in infection, then week or 2 later hospital.

  23. Anker 23

    Excuse my cynicism but can’t help but wonder if this isn’t to do with national

  24. McFlock 24

    RNZ reporting that Boag supplied her private email address when explicitly asked where MoH should send the patient details.

    "Unsolicited". Lol.

    She beggars belief. Either completely intellectually absent from her ARHT role, or completely intellectually absent in her macchiavellian plans to frame the government for "leaks".

    What an absolute fucking tool.

    "The team had explicitly sought from all the organisations who were receiving that information for a very particular purpose in a well established process…what the appropriate email address was to send the information to," Bloomfield said.

    RNZ has been told the email address Boag had provided officials was the email address linked to her PR and political consultancy company, Boag Allan SvG.

    So she regards her company address as her personal email address? FFS.

    edit: oh:

    The process to notify emergency services where the country’s Covid-19 cases were located – with the aim of safeguarding emergency workers – had been established months ago, Dr Bloomfield said.

    “In case they had to visit a premise where there might be someone who had infection and they could protect their staff and take appropriate measures,” he said.

    Nice to know my speculation wasn’t completely off-base 🙂

  25. McFlock 25

    The stupid never ends.

    Can the nat caucus stop announcing each others' ethnicities without checking with them first?

    This can't be blamed on Muller or Boag – the nats are overdosing on incompetence. Have they been huffing leaded petrol for old-times' sake?

    • Incognito 25.1

      It sounded pretty Chinese and close enough though. That’s the problem with those surnames, as we all know.

      • McFlock 25.1.1

        That always gets my goat – to call probabilistic linkage "Chinese sounding names" is a gross mischaracterisation. It's actually how the government currently links individuals' information between departments.

        • In Vino 25.1.1.1

          Speaking of which, your name does have a slightly suspicious ring to it… smiley

          • McFlock 25.1.1.1.1

            Ah, but how many "McFlock"s are there in NZ from which to make the inference? 🙂

        • Incognito 25.1.1.2

          Sheer laziness.

          • McFlock 25.1.1.2.1

            If that's all the data manages, that's all the data manages. No amount of work will create data out of thin air.

            • Incognito 25.1.1.2.1.1

              Turning data into information is a dark art. The Alchemists have tried and failed and became modern day scientists. Data, facts, and information are not for the fainthearted. For us mere mortals all that matters is perception, eh?

              • McFlock

                It's not all that dark, until you get into finance – they like to keep that as dark as possible so the regulators aren't entirely sure what anyone's up to.

                As long as the assumptions (and therefore sources of error) are open, and probability is not mistaken for certainty.

                Labour's most risky assumption was actually that their leaked data source was representative of the entire Auckland market. Barely got mentioned, because the opponents' objectives were to misrepresent the work, not embark on a good faith exploration of the problem.

                Conversely, the IDI isn't so bad for sociological research (and might identify some intersectional items of interest, particularly across generations), but apparently one department was initially fixin' to confuse correlation with causation and start targeting algorythm-"identified" kids as "at risk". Fucking nightmare scenario: "computer says your child needs to go into care".

                That stuff had to be stamped on hard, and I suspect it helped justify such stringent controls.

  26. David Mac 26

    This left/right thing. It's time we started utilising the energy it creates in our favour.

    We need to find a new reason to dislike 50% of the population. Lets do it with surnames A=M versus N-Z. (see what I did there…already a bias!)

    A-N versus O-Z…oh not bloody Oz. Ok, we're going to form sides via our letterboxes. Odds vs Evens.

    If the left right thing is put to bed and harmony sought everyone can win.

    The right can build streets of family homes and cash in.

    Families in motels can decide on a floor plan that suits.

    We found billions to confront covid, what's holding us back from getting things really sorted?

  27. Eco Maori 27

    Kia Ora

    The Am Show.

    That would be good a travel bubble with Rarotonga.

    The Internet is a great way to promote musical Stars

    Yes we do need to protect the Earth biodiversity at the moment many creatures are going extinct.

    Ka kite Ano

  28. Bob 28

    are we all ready for Lockdown, part 2?

  29. Eco Maori 29

    Kia Ora

    Newshub.

    No comment

    Its great to see Kiwis enjoying winter sports.

    Cool that wealth people are advocateing for a higher rate of taxes for wealthiest.

    Ka kite Ano.

  30. Eco Maori 30

    Kia Ora

    Te Ao Maori Marama.

    Te muller fuller

    It would be good to see More Maori hired in government mahi.

    It is good to see people helping Wahine keep their tamariki in their mothers care.

    Ka kite Ano.

  31. Eco Maori 31

    Kia Ora

    The Am Show.

    Find the positive in most situations.

    I figured that out.

    Ka kite Ano.

  32. Eco Maori 32

    Kia Ora

    Newshub

    Its good to see people being held accountable for slandering Maori.

    That's great increaseing dump fees to make people recycle more rubbish.

    Ka kite Ano.

  33. Eco Maori 33

    Kia Ora

    Te Ao Maori News.

    Ka pai I would like a lawyer like yours.

    To much rain in Rotorua the septic system cannothhandle it they should have had plans for that so they don't have to spill crap in the lake.

    Ka kite Ano.

  34. Eco Maori 34

    Kia Ora

    The Am Show.

    Formula E racing is the way of the future.

    The Salvation Army new comunity housing is great they are a awesome charity.

    Ka kite Ano

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