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Open mike 13/10/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 13th, 2020 - 96 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

96 comments on “Open mike 13/10/2020 ”

  1. ScottGN 1

    I see that Greens candidate Ricardo Menéndez March has started coalition negotiations on Twitter with respect to the wealth tax. It might be a good idea if he shut for a bit and let his leadership do what they have to do to get the the party over the line on Saturday. Otherwise there will be no coalition negotiations period.

    • Alan 1.1

      Difficult to fault National and Act for concentrating on this issue when the Greens keep raising it like this.

      • The Al1en 1.1.1

        And another day labour say it's not happening and everyone thinks national look totally desperate, pinning the slimmest of hopes their final minute hail mary pass is caught by dullards who can't think for themselves.

        There are traps set, and there are natural hazards. National aren’t capable of getting through either.

        • Alan

          That does not alter the fact that the Greens keep raising it. What would your response be if the boot was on the other foot?

          Scott's sentiments/fears and his wish that Richardo etc would shut up are well founded.

          • The Al1en

            Err, that's what political parties do in election campaigns, push and promote their policies – And why should they not? Especially if by doing so it gives labour a free hit at the dopey nats who keep trying to push the same shit up the hill to nowhereville.

            • I Feel Love

              I think the advice the right are giving is lie about your intentions, and then once in power bring out the slippery stuff, ie what political parties have been doing forever. The Greens are telling us what they want to do, us as voters can choose to vote for that, or not. I party voted Greens.

      • anker 1.1.2

        Yeah Alan, if you think distorting the amounts involved and putting out a maybe, could be etc is the kind of party you want to vote for.

        But I am glad for you that you can find one thing Nats and Act have done right. Mostly the Nats have been,, dare I say it a shambles. In fact a complete shambles.

        Act being completely opportunist again trying to get the gun vote…………I guess that has worked for them to an extent. But what a thing to try and win votes on. Right to more sophisticated guns. Fuck

      • Cricklewood 1.1.3

        Pressure on this has succeeded in Jacinda ruling it out completely effectively shutting the door on a key GP policy before coalition negotiations start… some would regard that as a success.

    • greywarshark 1.2

      It's the baby bird syndrome. All the nestlings know is to watch for the parent bird with the food and their mouths open wide and are lined with yellow so the feeder can't miss the target with the gobstopper. All the fervent workers in the poverty stratum of need of money, goods, homes and livings, know there is great need and can't shut up even when it would be strategic to do so, or adopt another approach.

    • Dennis Frank 1.3

      He's an out-there leftist doing his thing. Can't expect such folk to see the big picture even, let alone be sensible. Young, keen & naive is all that matters…

      • sumsuch 1.3.1

        Are we supposed to trust in the 'Little Father', or mother in this case, who knows and loves us, secretly. The Left are rationalists not superstitionists. Trying to discern the hearts of the blessed Grant and the holy Jacinda is not in my playbook nor should it ever be for demo-crats.

    • KJT 1.4

      A political party pushing their policies, before an election.

      How strange!

    • Patricia 2 1.5

      ScottGN – I've been uneasy for some time watching March use AAAP as a blunt weapon against WINZ this last year. AAAP used to provide great advocacy for clients but over recent months it has become a political vehicle for March. He will lose the Greens votes if he continues on this journey.

  2. Bruce 2

    I may be wrong . This morning on my Facebook is a DENISE LEE add saying she will spend $6.2 billion on Onehunga transport, Google tells me Auckland will spend $1.42 billion something doest sound right. national also gets a mention.

    • Gabby 2.1

      She must be another one of them leftists Dennis gnosis all about.

      • AB 2.1.1

        The next nexus of gnosis and praxis will be instantiated through the problematising of left-right discontinuities.

        • Wensleydale

          That was glorious. I expect to see it appropriated as a corporate mission statement in the near future.

  3. observer 3

    Some good articles on Newsroom today, including an insight into on-the-ground campaigning in Manurewa (should be read by anyone who thinks elections are won in armchairs!).

    And the news that Collins has been endorsed by … Todd Barclay. That sums up National's mess.


  4. Stuart Munro 4

    China is saying no to Ozzie coal. This will shake things up.

  5. Jacinda has shown paranoia and a serious lack of judgement in refusing to discuss the Wealth Tax (or any Wealth Tax option) with the Greens in coalition negotiations. So much for transformation, alleviating poverty and a fairer NZ.


    • Alan 5.1

      Hey Alien, see what I mean?

      The membership of the Green Party seem to think that the wealth tax is a brilliant idea and the membership makes the decisions right??

      • The Al1en 5.1.1

        I think it's a good policy too (party voted green), but I accept that some in labour and the wider electorate don't, so it's been ruled out as a policy too far.

        The crux of the matter comes down to what I view as the issue of the campaign. A couple of days ago there's a media bit from Collins saying about the PM "I don't believe a word she says" and then another from her urging us to believe her when she says "you can trust me". Clearly at 47% in the polls, the people are rejecting Judith.

        So again, for the nats to keep putting it front and centre, when people hear Jacinda say no, then it smacks of desperation and must be counter productive.

        • bwaghorn

          Maybe the greens could go for referendum on tax next election as a coalition bottom line .

          3 options

          Keep tinkering .

          A comprehensive cgt.

          A wealth tax.

          • The Al1en

            Or labour could grow a pair and actually address tax reform to end poverty and create a fairer society, but I know that won't happen when the policies needed are unpopular with voters, even though their best interests in the long term, and not many governments wilfully choose to vote themselves out.

            No need for a tax referendum, the argument just needs to be won in the wider public, so it's not a bottom line in future negotiations but a minimum standard adopted by both leftish parties.

            • Dennis Frank

              At the risk of seeming vaguely Marxist, I see it as a class issue. Simple: middle class has wealth to pass on to children, lower class doesn't.

              I agree with the wealth tax as a semi-plausible method of reducing wealth inequality. Laudable, but history will pronounce a verdict on saturday. That verdict may turn out to be that it was mere virtue-signalling.

              If those for whom the Greens policy wonks designed the policy to benefit refuse to actually vote for it, then nobody will be able to claim that it worked as intended, eh?

              Politically-correct Greens, operating on auto-pilot as usual with tiny brains disengaged, will flounder around in search of some feeble excuse for failure. Other Greens will get real. The upshot will be that the Greens will have to re-evaluate their raison d'être.

              If they still want to bridge middle & lower classes via policy, they will only survive via more sophisticated marketing of that policy!!

              • solkta

                Do you think it is possible that the Greens develop policy that is right to do rather than to buy votes?

              • Draco T Bastard

                The Greens say that they use consensus to make policy decisions and yet, despite being a Green Party member, I've never been asked if I support any policies before they become policy.

                • KJT

                  Are you on the mailing lists.

                  Draft policies are open to all members for comment and input.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    Yes, and I have put in such input. But, at no point, have I been asked to vote for the final policy.

            • Draco T Bastard

              Or labour could grow a pair and actually address tax reform to end poverty and create a fairer society

              The only way tax would do that is if PAYE went back to a high tax rate of 70% or more. High enough to effectively instituting a maximum income.

              but I know that won't happen when the policies needed are unpopular with voters

              Actually, I think a maximum income would probably be quite popular with the majority of people. Unfortunately, the way things are, they're not the ones that are going to get a say in it.

              No need for a tax referendum, the argument just needs to be won in the wider public

              But a referendum does have the benefit of finding out what the majority of people actually want and not just of those who have the resources to make a lot of noise.

              • Bearded Git

                PAYE does not redistribute capital. That is the beauty of a Wealth Tax.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  I tend to be in favour of a wealth tax. Done properly nobody would be able to afford to own excessive amounts.

                  Of course, that would get the bludgers truly whinging.

          • Draco T Bastard

            4th option: Design a completely new tax system from the ground up.

            • xanthe

              5th option tax interest received at 99%

            • Cricklewood

              This is my preference, my current thinking is to get rid all the tax credit systems working for families etc etc.

              Change the tax codes so that they work on a tax free threshold basis.

              Ie Single Parent couple of kids your tax free threshold might be say 50k so you can earn what you can without worrying about abatements etc etc

              All benefits ie unemployment would be tax free and earning income on his would be fine up till you reached your tax free threshold. Again making it viable for someone to find some work and not worry about abatements etc.

              A single professional might only have a tax free threshold of only $5000.

              Change the tax bands adding higher rates.

              Reduce gst, enact a very broad but low rate cgt, look at a tax to discourage land banking and tax off shore holdings.

              Inheritance tax should he on the table as well.

          • Janet

            I too think it is a referendum matter.

    • Andre 5.2

      Or perhaps Jacinda is just doing what anyone with a bare minimum of political nous would do.

    • Ad 5.3

      Having done two large dinner parties in two days among the old and wealthy of Dunedin in 3 days, they can hold their nose and vote Labour, but not if it comes with a Green Party tax. They simply don't believe the Greens understand how to hand wealth down through to your children. This is the haute-bourgeoisie in our most left-leaning cities.

      We need to see the next Associate Finance and Minister of Revenue Ministers generate some think pieces for Cabinet on this, pronto. Whoever gets in.

      Ardern hsimply must spend some of her ginormous political capital – Key failed to do so and she's smarter than him.

      • Bearded Git 5.3.1

        Ad-agreed re the political capital…..in the long-term people will see this as a principled approach

      • McFlock 5.3.2

        The problem they have isn't that the Greens don't know about inter-generational power, the Greens understand it too well, and how harmful it can be.

        Dunedin being a case in point – far too long locked down by a cadre of unimaginative families seeking to preserve their personal wealth and businesses.

      • sumsuch 5.3.3

        As I heard it Key didn't spend his political capital to put things right, Right-wise, because he understood his support was based on specifically not going Douglas/ Richardson.

        Jacinda and Grant are cautious to their bones and probably don't believe to begin with, all nurtured in the norts Labour environment.

        Still a little resentful at Grant, trying to establish his Left credentials in the Pub political programme, saying all the right shit and turning out just as we expected.

    • Peter 5.4

      If 'paranoia' is now to be applied to that situation I presume there is a pandemic of paranoia about that just hasn't been called that.

    • Tricledrown 5.5

      It's good rhetoric the Greens have a point of difference so it's up to the Greens to gain enough seats to put their policies into action.

      • woodart 5.5.1

        yes, time for the greens to stop phucking around and nail down an electorate seat, get a fulltime seat at the top table.

  6. greywarshark 6

    Who or what can anyone trust in NZ? We must retain our present government as only with them can we hope to turn NZ around to be responsive to reality and need, rather than the speculators and those deep in comfy chairs, or bent on furthering the interests available to the wealthy.


    The Laura Fergusson Rehabilitation in Greenlane closed in August, with its board blaming financial problems.
    Now the Charities Services is investigating complaints about the way it has been run.

    For 27 years, Josephine Cliff's son lived at Laura Fergusson.
    She says over the last five years, she witnessed the decline of services for residents like her son.
    "The maintenance, I mean just never appeared to be done. There was sort of rotten walls, buildings. My son's door fell off, a sort of french door thing just collapsed. There was no maintenance I could see going on at all," she said…

    "I was told when I took my letter in by hand to the CEO, she actually came out and I said to her, I'd written a letter and here it is for the chairman of the board, wherever he hangs out now, and she said we were gagged, we were not allowed to speak to you because the Ministry of Health gagged us," she said.

    The Ministry of Health denies it gagged the trust.
    Cliff said when she eventually got a reply, it said the funding wasn't enough to continue, even though other providers are still operating, she said.

    Former board member John Wolk, an amputee, has also used the organisation's services. He says when the closure was announced last year he was told a plan would be released early this year.

    • Gabby 6.1

      It does have the look of a hijack about it. I'm sure there's a perfectly innocent and reasonable explanation yadayadyada.

  7. Peter 7

    I didn't click on the story but Stuff has yet another story about National saying what Labour will do and won't do.

    They don't talk so much about their own list of what they will do and not. Not talk much past spraying about the multi-billions they'll spend, no details, or imply the promises they make are already achieved.

    Witness Lawrence Yule and Matt King.

  8. greywarshark 8

    Very mean-while Julian Assange trial hamster wheel turns round.

    We must defend whistleblowers because they reveal what governments are doing ‘in the public interest’.

    That seems a reasoned and correct statement.

    Editor’s note: Fidel Narváez served as Ecuador’s consul in the UK from 2010 until July 2018. He helped get Julian Assange political asylum, and regularly communicated with the WikiLeaks publisher when he was trapped in the London embassy. In a previous article for The Grayzone, Narváez debunked 40 media lies and distortions about Assange. In this piece, he summarizes the key points from the British extradition hearings against Assange in September 2020.

  9. greywarshark 9

    From No Right Turn a story from the USA worthy of a film like Bewster's Millions.* (A you couldn't make this shit up sort of theme.) https://norightturn.blogspot.com/2020/10/a-new-low-in-american-democracy.html

    California authorities have launched a criminal investigation into unauthorized ballot boxes that the Republican party has placed in several counties, with authorities warning that these set-ups are illegal.

    The boxes have appeared in Fresno, Los Angeles and Orange counties at locations including political party offices, campaign headquarters and churches, according to the California secretary of state. The GOP admitted Monday that it owned the boxes and defended the practice.

    As for what happens to ballots deposited in these fake dropboxes, who knows? But it probably involves an incinerator, at least for all those voting Democrat.

    * Brewster's Millions trailer

    In series. (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDDF75AF7D08771AF

  10. Chris T 10

    I have never pretended to understand the US's electoral system, but isn't it a bit irrelevant when each side does dodgy shit, when the whole thing seems to be decided by Electoral College votes?

    • RedBaronCV 10.1

      No the votes determine how the electoral college votes for a state. And the "dodgy shit" is pretty much republican – no false equivalence and blaming both sides.

      • ianmac 10.1.1

        No Right Turn:California authorities have launched a criminal investigation into unauthorized ballot boxes that the Republican party has placed in several counties, with authorities warning that these set-ups are illegal.

        The boxes have appeared in Fresno, Los Angeles and Orange counties at locations including political party offices, campaign headquarters and churches, according to the California secretary of state. The GOP admitted Monday that it owned the boxes and defended the practice.


        Maybe it will be used to "prove" that ballot boxes are untrustworthy? Like a burglar complaining about burglary?

        • McFlock

          winwin for repugs.

          If the votes in the illegal boxes are for them, then they get to argue "coup d'etat" when the votes are rejected en masse.

          If the votes are for dems, then they're improperly returns and not counted.

          They're not trying to win the election, they're trying to give their stacked scotus and their rambo-cosplay fringe an excuse to dispute the loss.

        • Andre

          All of the recent (this century) instances of deliberate voter fraud and electoral fraud I've ever seen documented have been perpetrated by Repugs. So yeah, all this noise about voter fraud is them projecting again, and the reason they know it happens because they're the ones doing it.

  11. RedBaronCV 11

    Since we are having a election. There is much not to admire about the system in the USA but I am interested in their "town halls" that elected members run.

    I have wondered if doing something similar in electorates here from both list and electorate MP's might be beneficial in that voters can make their views known , meet others of a like mind and give wider feedback rather than professional lobbying capturing the system.

  12. Adrian 12

    The wealth tax will possibly cost the Greens 1 or 2 percent , it may even stop them from getting back in at all. the Greens don't seem to understand that political maxim of the "optics ". Yes a WT sounds good but the "öptics"of an 80 + year old recent widow being slugged with a huge bill for a modest house that just happens to be in a suburb that has rocketed and that she has lived in all her life is not very good "optics ". Bereft and Stressed Grieving Widow Forced Out Of Family Home stories are political suicide.

    Jacinda knows that and that there are better ways to extract tax.

    • Adrian-the WT is a genuinely transformational policy that will shift wealth from the mega rich to the desperately poor. It will attract as many people to the Greens as it will lose.

      I have said a couple times on TS that no policy is set in stone-the Greens could modify the WT to target the top 4% rather than the top 6%. This would make it more palatable to some people and it would still bring in plenty of revenue to alleviate poverty.

      • Andre 12.1.1

        If the wealth tax thresholds aren't the hard priorities the Greens have made them out to be, but are negotiable, then it's political malpractice to have set them so low. Because so many people can see themselves hit by it, and considering the price of real estate, it kicks in at a level most people don't really consider "wealthy".

        Which is one reason why Elizabeth Warren pitched her wealth tax at levels over $50 million, which would only affect 0.05% of US households. But even that attracted very few voters that weren't already with her.

  13. swordfish 13

    Final round of polling should be interesting.

    While the odds are pretty heavily against it … I'm still not entirely ruling out NZF just managing to scrape over the 5% threshold. There are one or two sound reasons that no-one has adequately explored in analyses to date (in fact, hardly anyone's touched on them at even the most basic level).

    Equally, the Greens are by no means a dead cert … odds are in their favour, but certainly not overwhelmingly so. In fact, as close as 60/40. (perhaps I’m stating the bleedin obvious there ?).

    Final Polls should clarify.

    (these points only slightly qualified by heavy advance voting … not least because fieldwork for the final polls has been taking place at the same time as bulk of early votes)

  14. swordfish 14

    Latest UMR

    • Ad 14.1

      That dope vote will bring the kids to the polls and get the Green Party over 5%.

      • Andre 14.1.1

        Nah. They'll be too blazed or tending to their case of the munchies to go and vote.

      • AB 14.1.2

        I love a bit of condescension and stereotyping on a Tuesday. A wonderfully talented and imaginative 20-year old relative of mine (doesn't drink, never touched dope) voted for the first time last week. And yes it was Green. So I'll take your stereotype and raise it with my anecdata.

    • Patricia Bremner 14.2

      So Act are not 11% ??? Probably not 7% either. LOL 29% +7?% = 36%

      Millsy Relax!! Let's keep moving.. forward mate.

    • Patricia Bremner 14.3

      Hi Swordfish, how does that translate to seats?

  15. Cinny 15

    If this anything to go on, Nelson could well turn red and dr custard will be no more.

    Nick smith and his supporters were busy on the side of a main road, waving around signs, the problem was no one was tooting or waving, no one, how embarrassing.

    Meanwhile up the road a bit was Rachel and the Labour team with their signs waving at motorists, people were tooting their horns flat out and waving back. Yeah!!!!

    • Patricia Bremner 15.1

      I hope so Cinny!! Got my bottle of NZ Lindauer bubbles ready and my millenium flute ready!! Boy I am going to enjoy this!!

      • Cinny 15.1.1

        It's going to be magic 🙂 I'll be thinking of you with the bubbles when it happens and raise a glass with you sista 🙂

  16. Leighton 16


    She is really sounding unhinged now. The internal polls clearly aren't moving (at least not in the right direction).

    EDIT: Swordfish’s post about the new UMR corporate poll would seem to bear that out.

    • AB 16.1

      "She is really sounding unhinged now"

      It was always a matter of intense interest to consider how long she could maintain the mask of normality with the girlish "Hi Duncan" and "Oh – morning Suzie" before the whole malevolent contraption exploded.

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