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Open mike 13/11/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, November 13th, 2019 - 155 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

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155 comments on “Open mike 13/11/2019”

  1. quasimodo 1

    People in dangerous bushfire zones delay taking action until the last minute because they're too optimistic about their own risk, new research has shown.

    The highest fire danger warning has been forecast for Sydney, the first time the warning has been issued in Australia’s most populous region since the ‘catastrophic’ category was introduced in 2009.

     

    https://lighthouse.mq.edu.au/article/november-2019/get-out-now-why-sydneys-first-catastrophic-fire-warning-will-save-lives

    • Dukeofurl 1.1

      Yes. But they often live in areas  where the fire risk is high every year.  I think they also see stories of how  the fire  will  burn some houses but skip others, sometimes because the owners defended the house.

      Until recently  the advice was to leave early OR stay and defend your house  if you  made the recommended clearing   of  material from around the house. The worst decision was to stay and then leave when the fire front could be seen.

      The 2009 bushfires in Victoria swept through some small towns where people had taken shelter after leaving their homes. Up up 180 lost there lives.
      Victoria is an area Im more familiar with and there is a long history of large loss of life
      2009 – 7 February – March “Black Saturday” (173 deaths)
      1939 – December – January “Black Friday” (71 deaths)
      1926 – 14 February – March “Black Sunday” (60 deaths)
      1944 – December – February (51 deaths)
      1983 – 16 February “Ash Wednesday” (47 in Victoria)
      1962 – 14–16 January (33 deaths)
      1969 – 8 January (23 deaths)
      1942 – Western Victoria (20 deaths)
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushfires_in_Victoria

      • quasimodo 1.1.1

        Yep, I've seen a few in Sydney. One I saw progressed from the south, then SW, West, NW, then north of Sydney .. almost as if someone was driving around with a box of matches.

        NSW police later caught some kids carrying matches according to ABC radio, but I don't know the details.

  2. A 2

    Morning!

    Check out the stats 11-12 mins in.  Interesting changes.

    Hoover Inst – The Strange Death of Europe

    Posting because its not a perspective covered much.

    • Karol121 2.1

      Agreed A.

      Not covered much, this side of the globe especially.

      His work was described by one journalist as; "gentrified xenophobia", but such a description is questionable, and motive for such comment worthy of further examination.

      The issues he puts forward is important even to NZ, more particularly in relation to use of immigration as a "numbers game".

      Axiomatic, looking clearly at global migration patterns in the 21st century with a net population growth of around up to quarter of a million people per day, and a commonly overlooked potential for mass movement by "climate/environmental refugees" on top of other migration.

      This is before the topic of cultural and religious domination (as opposed to integration) is even seriously considered.

      Europe is really in a precarious situation, and is going to have to wake up very soon.

      I accept, that many historic European "ills" identity/sub-culture (ref: the empire accusation) needed some fixing, but this blame game wont solve the real problems facing them.

  3. Andre 3

    Long-time Repug strategist reckons the way to Dump-a-chump is to make the Senate trial vote a secret ballot. Since that only requires a handful of Republican senators, it might be a lot likelier than most people think.

    https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/11/12/path-to-removing-donald-trump-from-office-229911

    However, she doesn't mention that the plan requires Mitch McTurtle to sacrifice his Senate seat for the greater benefit to the Republican party. Because he would become the lightning rod for angry Drumpfkins by actually allowing the vote to make it a secret ballot. That might be the biggest obstacle to the whole plan.

    • Ad 3.1

      It is in the Repugs interest to have such vote anonymity electorally. But can't see it helping the Dems.

      No sign of the Senate majority shield wall cracking yet.

      • Andre 3.1.1

        No sign of the shield wall cracking yet because any public signs of cracking will bring the immediate wrath of Drumpf.

        If cracking starts, I suspect there's a good chance we might not see any public cracks until there's an announcement that the world's most stable genius has won everything and solved all the world's problems and don't blame him when it all turns to shit after he left because it was all perfect when he finished his work.

        Then over the next few months the stories of late-night delegations visiting the White House will trickle out …

        • Ad 3.1.1.1

          I cannot see the collective Repug leadership entertaining an alternative future this close to the election.

           

          They are locked.

          • Adrian Thornton 3.1.1.1.1

            Yep, impeachment is a god send to Trump, go and look and his donation numbers since this all started..soaring

            'If you think of the Internet as an ATM machine, impeachment is the PIN code'

            https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump-donations-impeachment-inquiry-public-hearings-1.5354954

            The Dems fail again at understanding how to do politics, no surprises there.

          • Andre 3.1.1.1.2

            Yeah, it's a long shot. About the only way I could see it happening is if they become convinced they'll lose the senate majority as well as the presidency with the fake-bronze Brezhnev at the top, but might have a chance of keeping the senate with something like a Pence-Haley ticket.

    • Blazer 3.2

      alternatively…there is an election…next year!wink

      • Andre 3.2.1

        Depends on how important it is to make it clear that the president is required to act in accordance with the constitution and in the best interests of the country.

        So if the idea is to set the norm that the president is elected to be an unacccountable king to do whatever the fuck he wants for four years, then sure, just pretend it's all good to just wait to let the voters sort it out. That seems to be the Repug position.

        But if it's still important to hold the principle that the president is still a citizen accountable to the law and constitution, then it seems clear his behaviour has stepped so far over the line that Congress has no choice but to go through the process, even if it may be electorally disadvantageous to individual members. That seems to be the Dem position.

        • Ad 3.2.1.1

          The clearest rehearsal for the Repugs is their performance in the Russian election interference hearings. They made their decision to lock down behind him then.

          It's good mental protection to be as pessimistic as possible right now.

    • mauī 3.3

      Dems having a few issues with their key witness testimonies…

      • Andre 3.3.1

        That would be Sean Davis, founder of The Federalist website? Another Alex Jones type, minus the performance art? His twitter is certainly … ahem … interesting.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Federalist_(website)

        Meanwhile, searching Taylor's transcript for that quote (to find the context) turns up nothing, and searching da webz for that quote only turns up the kookiest of Repug and far-right sites.

        You sure you're not just spattering around shit that's just been outright fabricated?

        • mauī 3.3.1.1

          p. 299 of the Taylor deposition.

          • Andre 3.3.1.1.1

            So the context is Zeldin is trying to get Taylor to make some sort of assertion about what Trump's state of mind or motivation was when he tried to extort Ukraine into opening sham investigations into his political opponents.

            It's pure diversionary smokescreen.that is immaterial to establishing or refuting the fact that Trump was indeed trying to extort Ukraine by withholding the aid approved by Congress.

      • Andre 3.3.2

        BTW maui, do you think it's OK for the president to withhold Congress approved and taxpayer funded aid to try to extort a foreign country into smearing a political opponent of the president?

        This is now the fourth time I've asked you this exact question. The first time you evaded, and the next two you ghosted.

        I really can't understand why it might be difficult to answer "no, it's not OK". Unless you're anticipating the need to be able to claim "yes, it is ok" when the evidence becomes undeniable to even the most delusional Drumpfkin.

      • joe90 3.3.3

        You dohave a thing for vile RWNJs.

        Zeldin’s Twitter rant was a classic racist dog whistle. It was a wink and nod to all his pals who hate seeing a woman of color wearing a hijab in a position of power. But it was written with just the right lack of specificity that he could claim ignorance when confronted with the nasty implications of his message.

        […]

        Last month, for example, she recalibrated her defense of a tweet during the 2012 Gaza War, in which she wrote, “Israel has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel.” In response to a New York Times column about her tweet and the history of anti-Semitic portrayals of Jews as deceitful manipulators, she defended her criticism of the Israeli military but said she regretted unintentionally invoking the trope.

        Zeldin, however, has shown no such willingness to evolve.

        In 2015 he met with the Long Island Oath Keepers, a New York chapter of a far-right anti-government militia movement. He has appeared as a guest on a radio show hosted by Frank Gaffney, an Islamophobic conspiracy theorist who has also had white nationalist Jared Taylor on his show. Gaffney is best known for suggesting that former President Barack Obama is Muslim, accusing opponents of submitting to Sharia and objecting to having Muslim members of Congress serve on the House Intelligence Committee because they might leak information to the Muslim Brotherhood. Last year, Zeldin held a fundraising event with Sebastian Gorka, a former White House adviser who was photographed wearing a medal indicating membership in the Vitezi Rend, a Hungarian group that collaborated with the Nazis in World War II.  

        https://www.huffpost.com/entry/lee-zeldin-ilhan-omar-racist-dog-whistle_n_5c54d2b5e4b0871047537f47

        • mauī 3.3.3.1

          Nice deflection Joe…

          • joe90 3.3.3.1.1

             

            Always a pleasure to note how you the opinions, half-truths and outright lies of bigots like Zeldin appeal to you, sport.

            apperception

            /apəˈsɛpʃ(ə)n/

            noun

            dated•Psychology

            noun: apperception; plural noun: apperceptions

            1. the mental process by which a person makes sense of an idea by assimilating it to the body of ideas he or she already possesses
  4. Sabine 4

    and 21 NZ firefighters are in OZ to help. 

     

  5. reason 5

    more usa fuckery in the world,  in their fight against socialism … " Bolivian President Evo Morales Forced Out In Coup "

    and a bright note over their previous support of fascisim .
    " Brazil's Ex-President Lula Freed, Promises to Continue Fight for Justice "

    • The Al1en 5.1

      If only he hadn't changed the constitution to run for office again, and then stopped the election count for 24 hours, before being declared winner with just enough votes to win outright and avoiding a run off and drawing the attention of the poll observers who warned of serious irregularities.

      It always seems sadder when left wing politicians get power crazy and corrupt.

      • arkie 5.1.1

        Listening uncritically to the OAC on left-wing latin american governments is a mistake.
        They have a long history of fomenting regime change in central and south america.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America

        Morales still is the elected president (from his previous term) until December so this cannot be anything but a coup.

        It's always sad to see left-wingers repeat the accusations of Trump and Rubio.

        • Gosman 5.1.1.1

          Care to explain the 24 hour "pause" in announcing the results? That doesn't usually go along with free and fair elections. Or are you one of these one eyed type leftists who excuse any abuse of democracy because it is committed by a Socialist and is therefore okay?

          • arkie 5.1.1.1.1

            If anyone is one-eyed Gosman, it is you, and we are all painfully aware of it.

            An abuse of democracy is to force a democratically elected official to resign before his previous term is even finished. Care to explain that one?

             

             

      • AB 5.1.2

        Maybe not – Mark Weisbrot seems to think otherwise.  We should go with the default assumption based on historical experience – which is a resource-theft coup engineered by the global hegemon.

        • Gosman 5.1.2.1

          Why do YOU think there was a sudden 24 hour pause in counting the results of the election?

          • David Mac 5.1.2.1.1

            There was a 24 hour pause because at the centre of virtually all Central and South American elections there is the odour of Dodgy on the air. 

            When the ticket to a better life revolves around knowing someone with some political pull, we will always get candidates with hidden agendas. Left, Right, doesn't matter.

          • AB 5.1.2.1.2

            Listen to Weisbrot. There are two counts – a quick count and an official count. The quick count has historically been stopped before 100% as it is meant to be indicative only. The official count carries on to 100%. The supposed 'pause' is simply the time interval between the cessation of the quick count and the end of the official count. If Weisbrot is correct, and there is no reason to assume he's not, the accusation is bullshit.

            So I'm sticking with my hunch – yet another resource-theft coup orchestrated by the global hegemon and gleefully and violently supported by local elites on the ground who stand to benefit. A Marxist (and I'm not one) would correctly call it "primitive accumulation". The suggestion is that the resource in question is lithum – there's a truckload of money to be made in the near future with batteries I'm picking.  BTW – are you actually Juan Guaido with a bit of time on your hands?

  6. Sanctuary 6

    A thought experiment and a question. An oak tree was planted somewhere in Auckland in 1840, by a Maori who wants to see how these new fangled trees grew. In 1880, an acorn fell from this tree and grew spontaneously. In 1919 a grieving Pakeha parent took a sapling from this second oak tree and planted it on the slopes of one of Auckland's cones as a quiet memorial to a son lost in the Geat War. Today, this NZ third generation oak is 100 years old and the family of the person who planted it – informally, just amongst themselves – know of it's story and take comfort when they walk or drive past when they see "their" tree. 

    The question is, is that oak tree now a native, or is it forever an exotic?

    • David Mac 6.1

      Mother Earth made the arrangements = native tree

      Mankind made it happen, planted the seed or it was on the hoof of his horse = exotic tree

      ….If a South American Macaw flew from Sydney to Devonport and deposited an Australian native plant seed that flourished, is that plant native or exotic? 

       

      • bwaghorn 6.1.1

        That macaw story is a good one . 

        Correct me if I'm wrong but native is something that can be in other countries but is of the place its found and endemic is native but only found in that place . 

        So a non endemic native is self introduced through natural methods. As opposed to introduced by other means .

        Which kinda means that as humans have always naturally spread across the planet, anyone not forcibly transplanted is native . Especially their offspring.

        • David Mac 6.1.1.1

          If we agree that central Africa is the cradle of mankind…the only endemic people are those there. The rest of us, migrating exotics. 

    • Robert Guyton 6.2

      Good question, can't be answered definitively. I listened to someone describing a native person as one who recognised every bird call in a place, knew its meaning and how that changed according to season and time of day. I think this definition, given our present dire situation,  is more useful than circumstantial; first-in-first-served model we have come to accept.

      • Sanctuary 6.2.1

        Good answer! 🙂

      • alwyn 6.2.2

        I think that if we used that definition Robert there wouldn't be anyone in the country who could possibly claim the title of being a "native" of New Zealand.

        Do you know, for example, what is the call of a sooty shearwater chick when it wants to be fed by its father rather than its mother? Please provide a full, detailed, explanation of the differences between the calls made to each parent.

        • marty mars 6.2.2.1

          I wouldn't worry it is just a made up definition. Experts in one type of knowledge were experts for that and not everyone was/is expert in all areas imo

          • alwyn 6.2.2.1.1

            I really wasn't planning to lose any sleep over it Marty. Do I have to put JOKE everywhere?

            On the other hand I am desperately interested in the question about the Mutton bird*. I haven't been able to determine the exact sequence of notes in each of the calls I was inquiring about and I thought that Robert was sure to know.

            * (titi if you prefer).

            • Molly 6.2.2.1.1.1

              alywn, just in case you are not aware of it, the website NZ Birds online, may have the answer to any questions about our birds. 

              (Including many recordings of different calls for any species.)

            • Robert Guyton 6.2.2.1.1.2

              Alwyn; it may surprise you greatly to learn that I spent a season on one of the most far-flung titi islands, Putauhinu, south of Rakiura/Stewart Island and while I can certainly describe a range of calls made by parent and chick titi, having heard them many, many times, I could not differentiate as finely as you have demanded, however, I haven't claimed to be a native of Putauhinu, so don't feel compromised. I imagine, reading your question, that you are very familiar with the range of calls the galah and consider your self a native of Australia?

              • alwyn

                I am truly impressed Robert. Even in my much younger days I think I would have found spending time on those Southern Islands rather harder than I would have desired. Tramping on Stewart Island itself was quite enough for me.

                I wonder if bird calls actually do get as selective as my hypothesis suggests? Surely not.

                As far as Australian birds go I found them to be much more spectacular in their colouring than New Zealand ones but I can't think of any where the song was attractive. Just the opposite of most New Zealand species. Still I suppose the Australian birds were quite appropriate for the country. The sounded just as raucous as most of the inhabitants.

            • David Mac 6.2.2.1.1.3

              I prefer titi

          • Robert Guyton 6.2.2.1.2

            Marty – all definitions are made up.

             

            • marty mars 6.2.2.1.2.1

              lol your one was that is for sure Robert

              • Robert Guyton

                It wasn’t my definition, Marty, it was that of a man who teaches "becoming native" and begins by training people to recognise bird calls and their meanings. It's fascinating stuff and his ability to know stuff about his surroundings through the behaviour of birds is phenomenal. He's a tracker also and takes his awareness to incredible levels with his reading of tiny signs in the environment. He runs a podcast course that I highly recommend; with a bit of training, you too could become native smiley

                • marty mars

                  awesome – he sounds like a real tohuka – does he whakapapa to the deep south?

                  • Robert Guyton

                    He's American, living in America. His concept is an interesting one though, but one of many views on what "native" might mean. I like to hear various interpretations and recognise that a person can hold more than one view quite comfortably; the trick being not to negate one with another. We were talking today about a woman from Rekohu who "jumped ship" while it was anchored at Rakiura and made her way to Oraka, just down the road from me where she met and married a Maori man, bore children whose children's children are amongst those I taught when I was a teacher a couple of decades ago. Was she native to this role?

                    • marty mars

                      I don't really use the term native – a bit too much baggage to me here, let alone from over there. Indigenous, Māori, Ngāi Tahu mean a lot more. Plenty of people without a whakapapa want to be native here – I don't really care tbh.

                      Have you had a gander at this? 

                      A project dedicated to creating a Ngāi Tahu Atlas of place names and histories

                      http://www.kahurumanu.co.nz/

                       

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Yeah, that's wonderful, isn't it. I saw it when it was at its early stage, presented to us at the council. You see Hautere off the bottom of the south coast? I went there one day; hitch-hiked on a DoC provided helicopter; marvellous island, wouldn't want to stay there for more than an afternoon though; very, very exposed. Hineahitea and her man paddled from there to the mainland in a coracle made from twisted branches and seal skins, to escape being marooned there for his misdeeds. She was the brains behind the escape, imo smiley

                    • Robert Guyton

                      My mate Stewart Bull, speaking in our big yurt, said he thinks tikanga, rather than tikanga Maori, when he's involved in shared kaitiaki projects. He tangata tino pai ia!

                    • marty mars

                      Yeah Stewart is a nice guy.

                      I often wonder how the rellies lived on Whenua Hou and carved a life out of there – amazingly resilient and so generous – as many of their descendants are today. Haven't been there – will need to be saving the Kākāpō I spose – but the pouwhenua look great.

                      https://ngaitahu.iwi.nz/our_stories/connecting-people-place-and-time-tk76/

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Whenua Hou is just across the water from us; te Ara a Kewa. I can see it from the beach. Like you, I've not yet been there, but have friends who have. Kakapo work is hard! Perhaps you know Estelle Leask? 

      • marty mars 6.2.3

        Sounds weird to me.

        Early visitors from Europe to New Zealand generally referred to the indigenous inhabitants as "New Zealanders" or as "natives".[12] The Māori used the term Māori to describe themselves in a pan-tribal sense.[ii] Māori people often use the term tangata whenua (literally, "people of the land") to identify in a way that expresses their relationship with a particular area of land; a tribe may be the tangata whenua in one area, but not in another.[13] The term can also refer to the Māori people as a whole in relation to New Zealand (Aotearoa) as a whole.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori_people

    • soddenleaf 6.3

      The point of environmentalism. Surely to enhance said biodiversity. That includes introducing new species. We are an introduced species, that has increased diversity of Aotearoa. Western Europeans have done more to maximize the number of species in Nz. The question of protection is one of stopping degradation of previous species, this does not mean Maori since they drive, eat, behave much like pakeha, and are human beings, no human left behind!

      if we can introduce a tree that saves the kiwi should we? hell yes.

      • solkta 6.3.1

        Cat and stoat eating trees?

         

        • soddenleaf 6.3.1.1

          How about a genetical engineered tree that provides a nest that allows the kiwi the ability to peck a intruding cat, stout in the back of the head. Over time kiwis could become canavories…

          oh, on, science, how about WiFi absorbing wall paint that heats your home rather than your brain. 5G will lower my power bill and stop me getting brain cancer, whoopi.

    • mauī 6.4

      A long time ago a wise old Māori woman told me that where you are born if there is a tree or significant tree species nearby, then that will become your spiritual tree species for life. There was no distinction between native and exotic. That was a mind opener for sure…

  7. Kay 7

    For anyone who didn't catch this breaking on Checkpoint last night:

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018721883/three-deaths-reported-after-epilepsy-drug-switch

    or the written version

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/403116/three-deaths-following-epilepsy-drug-brand-switch

     The deaths are before the coroner and will be for a very long time. It's not likely to ever be 100% certain the switch was the direct cause but when you understand how all this works there's a strong possibility it's connected. Were this a food product, or a seat belt, or airbag, there would be an immediate  recall to err on the side of caution. Do we have to wait till the coroner's make their recommendations before Pharmac cancel this switch??

    All of a sudden the Minister of Health is suddenly taken this 'very seriously' and asking a lot of questions. I guess the word "deaths" in the public arena isn't a good look from a PR perspective. And we know how the one thing Ministers HATE is being publicly embarrassed. 

    David Clark has been bombarded with our concerns about this switch all year, some of us have been attempting to correspond with him since September 2018 when this was first mooted because we knew full well this outcome was likely. 'Attempted' because it's been very difficult to get a response, and the responses we did get are all identical cut and paste jobs. Not even acknowledgments from his office that our correspondence had been received. Welcome to NZ democracy where our elected representatives deliberately ignore or fob off serious situations they don't want to deal with until the shit really hits the fan in the media and they're forced to act all ministerial.

    (nb if anyone still wants to try that line that the brands/generics are exactly the same then I'm going to either totally ignore you or give you what for. Probably ignore you because I don't want to get a ban. In real life you'd probably get screamed at. I'm not even trying to be polite and reasonable any more if you're not prepare to listen or do your research and many of my peers in this fight have reached this point as well)

    • veutoviper 7.1

      +100000  Kay.  Did hear the coverage on RNZ National yesterday and immediately thought of you; and I now see that it has also been widely covered in other media – TVNZ, Herald, The Press, Stuff , Voxy amongst others.

      For anyone interested in the other coverage, rather than links to each of these other media, here is a generic Google link with links to these other media articles in the last 24 hours

      https://www.google.com/search?q=epilepsy+new+zealand&rlz=1C1LDJZ_enNZ499&sxsrf=ACYBGNRhAj8SNpQ0rUY7ufWHZ8KSLsZcOQ:1573594520439&source=lnt&tbs=qdr:d&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwii4KSz0OXlAhUWA3IKHSReBbYQpwUIKQ&biw=1024&bih=724&dpr=1.25

       

       

    • Rosemary McDonald 7.2

      "….thought about you. ( vw wink)

      Anyone regularly here on TS who takes the line that generics are no different from 'branded' versions are being wilfully and woefully ignorant.

      Espiner has done well to keep this pot boiling…isn't it interesting how being personally affected by a serious health crisis heightens one's awareness  of the significant issues threatening the lives of others?

      As a nation we can fix this….so why the hell is it dragging on?

      Thanks Kay for posting.

      • David Mac 7.2.1

        Ha, you are so right re: Generics vs Best in field Brand names.

        We all know what you mean. The ingredients lists on the Coke, Watties and Gillette labels are identical to the Pams Products labels. Teenagers the world over are fed up with trying to convince their Mum's that Coca-cola and Fun Cola are exactly the same thing.

        I have no experience with prescription drugs but with Colas, sorry Mum, everyone knows they aren't the same thing and yes we can taste it.

      • One Two 7.2.2

        Medication changes and/or medical experiments?

        Also as below.

        On assumed advice from MOH/IMAC and using a combination of standing orders and unapproved indication.

        Babies as young as 6mths of age have been and can be injected with MMR vaccine.

        Unapproved Indication means the product is not licenced for use in ages 6-11mths age group.

        The same applies to pregnant women with DTaP/Flu. Unlicensed use.

        Unapproved Indications have no established safety profile which has basis in recent science, and has IMAC Says "No Efficacy Answer"(no protective benefit profile) at all. Zero.

        As per publicly available IMAC/MOH documents. Linked.

        [It didn’t take you long after your 3-month ban to jump on one of your hobby horses and ride roughshod over a thread that is about generic vs. brand drugs and whether a switch of prescribing an epilepsy drug may have contributed to the deaths of three patients. In addition, your selective quoting belies an inquisitive mind in search of accuracy and the truth. I have no patience for you hijacking threads so let this be your only warning – Incognito]

        • Andre 7.2.2.1

          The full quote from the link, which One Two has cherry-picked to create a deceptive impression, is:

          How well does MMR0 protect infants aged 6–11 months from measles?There is no efficacy answer. Any immunity from MMR administered when they are under 12 months old is determined by the presence of maternal measles antibody. If there is enough maternal antibody to inactivate the vaccine the infant will not develop any immunity. If there is no maternal antibody then they probably will develop immunity. We cannot determine the likelihood of maternal measles antibody in individual babies.

          Two of the babies given MMR vazcines at well under twelve months of age are my grandniece and grandnephew. Because their mother is a doctor helping deal with a measles outbreak where the majority of those with measles are idiot anti-vaxxers.

          If any readers are considering whether an infant under twelve months should get vaccinated, the reason for the "over twelve months" recommendation is that it's less effective for younger infants, due to the possible residual presence of maternal antibodies. So the recommendation for infants that received their first dose before twelve months is that they get a further 2 doses (3 total) to ensure best protection.

          • One Two 7.2.2.1.1

            No efficacy answer.

            IMAC says there is no science which they can use as evidence of efficacy.

            Efficacy profile from vaccine = zero.

            Your comment served only to endorse and confirm what IMAC say in their own document.

            Which part of no efficacy answer did you not understand?

            While you're searching for info here is an explanation of what is happening and why.

            • – Children get vaccinated
            • – They become adults who get vaccinated more
            • – Adult women get vaccinated during pregnancy and pass on inferior maternal antibodies leaving newborns and infants at greater risk
            • – Babies are vaccinated as they grow through to adulthood 

            And the cycle of vaccine failure through waning inferior anti bodies continues to create expanded cohorts of susceptibles in all age groups.

            References available on request. You can share the CDC/Mayo Clinic research with your relative the doctor. 

            • Andre 7.2.2.1.1.1

              Oddly enough, one big factor that might "create expanded cohorts of susceptibles in all age groups" is actually getting measles.

              It seems that one of the long-term effects of measles in some people is that it reduces or destroys the immunity they had developed towards other diseases – it seems measles causes immune system amnesia. Yet one more reason to ensure your measles vaccination has been done.

              https://www.livescience.com/measles-wipes-immune-memory.html

        • Incognito 7.2.2.2

          See my Moderation note @ 3:49 PM.

          • One Two 7.2.2.2.1

            Incognito I have read the note. Cheers.

            If I continue the convo with Andre, seeing as he has again responded.

            Is a fresh comment in OM , away from the drug swap thread going to be ok?

             

            • Incognito 7.2.2.2.1.1

              Thanks and if you and Andre like to continue your exchange on OM, you can do so.

              • One Two

                Thanks for the confirmation.

              • Andre

                To be honest, I really don't like. I'm only moved to have a say when I see misinformation that might cause actual harm.

                So I'm happy to drop out when the misinformation moves on to someone just re-asserting something previously shown to be a taken-out-of-context cherry pick, or delving into the minutiae at the fringes of a topic that really don't affect the core issue.

                In the spirit of continuing honesty, I'm surprised at the continued tolerance here of harmful anti-vax misinformation. Particularly since we're dealing with an outbreak that's harming thousands that's at least partly due to anti-vax misinformation getting spread into vulnerable communities. But hey, this site is not my playground, those that put the work into making the playground available and keep it running get to set the rules.

                • Incognito

                  Hi Andre, I have left a long moderation note for One Two at 6:44 PM.

                  I wish to respond to your comments about tolerance and the apparent lack of ‘policing’ on this site.

                  With an online forum such as this site, there are two aspects to consider: content and process-flow.

                  Content is determined by Authors who write Posts but also by the commenters. The site does not dictate nor restrict content and shouldn’t IMO.

                  Moderators keep their distance and only jump in when the boundaries are crossed or rules violated as set out in the site’s Policy. The idea is that commenters self-moderate and nobody excludes others, for example.

                  As with the content, the process-flow is largely determined by the online ‘commentariat’, the online community. It is up to all of you/us to deal with stuff in a positive constructive way that allows for dissenting views, disagreements, differences of opinions, criticism, and even personal dislikes or rather dislike of content and/or style of comment, given that we don’t know each other from a bar of soap on this site. What is not tolerated is personal insults, for example.

                  The rules-boundaries are lenient to encourage free and frank debate on a wide range of topics. As with all free speech, this can create tension, especially when the boundaries get ‘tested’.

                  I hope this clarifies how I view things here, as commenter and as moderator.

                  Cheers,

                  Incognito

                  • Andre

                    Thanks for all that, particularly since I'm pretty sure your actual expertise about the workings of the immune system far exceeds mine. And apologies for my contributions to a situation that took up so much of your time.

                    Where I'm coming from on this topic is I see anti-vax speech as something that can plausibly lead to direct specific harm to identifiable vulnerable persons.

                    To me, that puts it on a moral plane pretty darn close to that occupied by hate speech. Were I to put the effort in and get invited to join the team helping keep the site running, I'd certainly want to treat it as such, which is probably a pretty good indication I shouldn't ever be granted that authority.

    • "Welcome to NZ democracy where our elected representatives deliberately ignore or fob off serious situations they don't want to deal with until the shit really hits the fan in the media and they're forced to act all ministerial."

      From memory, this was the interview where the Minister said something like how important is was to maintain the independence of Pharmac. (even if it's killing people apparently)

      Some of elected reps really are masochists at times, and don't seem to have adequate bullshit detectors fitted

      • Kay 7.3.1

        More coverage likely on Checkpoint and One news this evening according to my close source. I'd love to see David facing the cameras telling us he's ordered Pharmac to stop the switch immediately (flying pigs….) 

        Pharmac will fight this to the death for the simple reason this is their business model, and conceding now will mean they can no longer pull this stunt with certain classes of drugs. People's lives have never come into their decisions, only money.

        • OnceWasTim 7.3.1.1

          Maybe, or maybe not tonight Josephine.

          They might be too busy waiting for NZQA’s ‘Comms People” to get back to them

        • Drowsy M. Kram 7.3.1.2

          "People's lives have never come into their [Pharmac's] decisions, only money."  As a Pharmac beneficiary, that doesn't strike me as a fair opinion.

          IMHO, it would be more reasonable to state that 'Pharmac's decisions are based on people's health outcomes and maximising value for money on a limited budget."

          • Incognito 7.3.1.2.1

            Given PHARMAC’s mandate, generics will always play a major part in the decision-making. In the US, the vast majority of prescribed drugs are generics and cost up to 85% less than the corresponding brand drugs.

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31626574

            • Drowsy M. Kram 7.3.1.2.1.1

              Interesting thanks Incognito, especially re "Narrow Therapeutic Index (NTI) drugs".

              There seems to have been some uncertainty about whether the anti-epilepsy drug lamotrigene and its generics should be categorised as NTI drugs.

              "There was insufficient data to precisely quantify the therapeutic indices of carbamazepine and lamotrigine."
              https://n.neurology.org/content/86/16_Supplement/P2.053

              For information, links to a couple of relevant papers (the first from your link.)

              Generic lamotrigine versus brand-name Lamictal bioequivalence in patients with epilepsy: A field test of the FDA bioequivalence standard.
              https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26201987

              "Changing the neurology policy landscape in the United States: Misconceptions and facts about epilepsy"
              https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168851018301611

              • Incognito

                It is pretty complex. Did you see the term “generic-brittle”?

                Here’s another recent abstract from the same authors: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30579779

                In that relatively small study, 40% of epilepsy patients were categorised as generic brittle.

                I think that epilepsy and the ‘NZ experience’ with the drug switch are not typical and should not be used to jump to conclusions and make sweeping statements about generics vs. brand drugs.

                • Drowsy M. Kram

                  Interesting again, thinking about possible crossover between genetic-brittle and generic-brittle, and making the most of the hand you’re dealt.

                  Like your last para – agreed, and shouldn't be used as yet another stick with which to beat Pharmac, when we are collectively so much better off than previous generations.  Is this as good as it gets, and if it is, would that be so terrible?

            • OnceWasTim 7.3.1.2.1.2

              Being the beneficiary of various generics @Incognito, I agree. However in this case I don't really see that as the issue here.  More to do with the way the Minister and Pharmac have responded when concerns have been raised.

              • Incognito

                There are multiple issues at play. It started off with one aspect @ 7 but then the money aspect got dragged into it @ 7.3.1 and in an unfair, uninformed and prejudiced way, IMO.

    • McFlock 7.4

      11000 brand switches (about half switched so far according to RNZ).

      Each year, SUDEP affects about 1 in 1,000 adults with epilepsy and 1 in 4,500 children with epilepsy.

      Three almost seems lower than expected.

  8. Peter 8

    Mayor Andy Foster invites the wrath of the Taxpayers Union. They'll be into him boots and all – won't they?

    He's reintroducing catered lunches which he led moves to get rid of some years back. 

    "People felt when you didn't have lunches provided on days when you were working through [into the afternoon], councillors tended to disappear all over the place to get lunch. It reduced team bonding."

    I know in the scheme of things it's small change. I understand the sense of everyone eating together and the context of their meeting days. And I reckon if it'd been a Labour mayor introducing it the loonies would be going loopy about 'sense of entitlement, troughing lefties' and the usual. 

    I don't know why, just like anyone going to work, the councillors can't take lunch with them and sit and eat together and do the 'team bonding.' Can't team bonding happen unless it's a free lunch? Or can't highly motivated, organised people, with the serious responsibility of an important job, actually organise and their own lunch a couple of days a week so as to enable the critical team building?

    You watch, Jordan Williams and David Farrar will be spewing!

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/117357944/wellington-mayor-andy-foster-brings-back-catered-councillor-lunches

    • Dukeofurl 8.1

      "Or can't highly motivated, organised people, with the serious responsibility of an important job," 

      A catered lunch probably means they all  fall asleep by 3PM  meals like that have that effect.

       Now  free drinks at 4Pm thats  real team bonding.

      • veutoviper 8.1.1

        A big assumption there as to what type of lunch would be provided, Duke. As a Wellingtonian, I can assure you that we have an abundance (even overabundance) of caterers providing very healthy lighter style lunches with lots of fresh produce and options (vegetarian.vegan. gluten free, dairy free etc. LOL. 

        • Dukeofurl 8.1.1.1

           Multiple Options like that cost a lot more to provide, you seem to be in the industry and  would be hoping its  a 'smorgasbord' of vegan this and  gluten free that 

          It was being light hearted.

          • veutoviper 8.1.1.1.1

            "It was being light hearted."  

            So was mine – hence the LOL in my comment.

            I understand why you might be a bit sensitive to other people's comments at present and I want you to know that I am disgusted by the ongoing personal attacks you continue to be subjected to by Greywarshark. 

            Its a case of "Pot/Kettle" and Grey needs to look in a mirror.

            Much for all her/his/its " lets be positive, kind"  etc sanctimonious sermons, Grey has been posting snide put downs of other commenters who Grey thinks should not comment on TS regularly since she/he/it first started commenting here as Prism on 28 October 2009 – and through her/his/its transition through "Rose-Tinted" and "greywarbler" to "Greywarshark".

            And not just on TS but also on TDB (and then wonders why her/his/its comments as "greywarbler" disappear), and on Bowalley Road.  Just two days ago this appeared on Bowalley Road.

            greywarbler said…

            Odysseus your comment reminds me of the words odious. Please try not to bring Islam into the conversation at the slightest chance. You don't seem to have anything worthwhile to say, so don't just post a sneer and stick a put-down onto it like a post-it. I see about Odysseus, he was 'Famed for his courage, intelligence, and leadership', so try to live up to your name.

            11 November 2019 at 13:48

            https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3753486518085091399&postID=7777623754739802256

            So please don’t think others here support Grey’s put downs of you . Many otheres have been in your position in the past.

            In terms of the TS Policy, I would have thought that the following provision of TS Policy was relevant but it is not my right to suggest moderation be exercised – 

            "What we’re not prepared to accept are pointless personal attacks, or tone or language that has the effect of excluding others. "

            I just don't bother commenting  much here any more 

            • veutoviper 8.1.1.1.1.1

              And just wanted to mention that I am a female in a similar age range/same decade to Grey albeit a few years younger so my comments are not a "OK Boomer" situation. 

            • weka 8.1.1.1.1.2

              It's not gone unnoticed, although I will keep a closer eye on if Duke is being targeted specifically.

              (best not refer to people as 'it', thanks).

              • veutoviper

                Re people, I agree 'it' is not appropriate – was thinking of birds and fish.

                Putting both handles (Grey and Duke's full handles) into Search comes up with almost two pages of interactions going back to 2015, of which quite a few have little "bites/nibbles" and more.   But not sure this search has picked up all the recent ones, but will leave it there. But Duke is just one person who has had this treatment.

                /search/greywarshark+Dukeofurl/?search_comments=true&search_posts=true&search_sortby=date

                 

                • weka

                  Yes but if you look at that list it's mostly comments within the bounds of TS until the last few months, which is when I noticed a change as well.

                  • veutoviper

                    Had a closer look at the list that popped out of that search and it is missing a lot over the last month or so as have done a more detailed check going back from today to Sept. If I get time, I will drop an email to you at the back end in the next day or so.

                    • weka

                      this is why I rarely use the TS search 😉

                      I'm ok with what you've told me so far, and will keep an eye on it, cheers.

        • alwyn 8.1.1.2

          Perhaps Foster is trying to find work for his predecessor Justin?

          He owned, or at least part owned, a salad bar business if my memory serves me right. Perhaps the Council will give him the contract if he goes back to it?

      • bwaghorn 8.1.2

        Gee I manage every day to get up and make my lunch and be out the door by 7 . Like a huge amount of workers in this country.  This is why we grow to despise the people up the food chain . 

      • greywarshark 8.1.3

        Put downs, negative again Duke of Url?

        [give it a rest please. Please also let me know when you have read this, thanks /open-mike-07-11-2019/#comment-1665176 – weka]

        • Dukeofurl 8.1.3.1

          Oh thats that Jane Austen Character again , Mr Greywarshark

        • weka 8.1.3.2

          mod note for you above.

          • greywarshark 8.1.3.2.1

            Yes I have read it weka.   And don't understand why you do not discourage such pointless negativity in these negative times. A place for prople to cojme and do the new thing of talking and thinking of politics is so important these days. Why do you not encourage a greater number instead of allowing a smug, sneering type like this troll?

            • weka 8.1.3.2.1.1

              That comment I asked you to read *is my discouraging pointless negativity. Yours.

              Beyond that, it's a balancing act. The ethos of TS is robust debate. There are limits on that, hence the language and tone part of the Policy.

              Duke isn't (usually) a troll. He's annoying at times but that's not unusual here, and he brings useful perspectives to the site. Gosman is our resident (RW) troll if you want a standard to go by. Puckish Rogue at times too, but he gets away with it more because he is also often funny.

              Other than that, any of the regulars can get into trouble if they start doing comments that are abusive with no politics. Mostly a reminder to not do that will suffice, but sometimes people get a short ban (or long one if they give the moderator shit).

              I'll say again, that ime the best way to change the culture of the place is to encourage  and do the kinds of comments that you want to see here. Giving people shit for giving people shit will almost always result in more shit. Moderation will limit the shit posting, trolling and flames, but it won't create good interactions or better comments, it just creates the space for them. Improving the commentary requires creative acts.

    • David Mac 8.2

      Uber Eats.

      Those that desire to dine on butterfly wings in a white whine sauce can and the bill will still be cheaper than caterers. Caterers are so Elizabethan (II). Attach an extensive Uber Eats menu to the 'We're workin' late you bastards' memo.

      (I work alone and drive myself hard.)

  9. aom 9

    Un-bloody-believable: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/117378375/epas-inappropriate-reaction-to-students-speech. From the start, the Environmental Protection Agency has consistently demonstrated that its role is the opposite of its title. The fact that a young woman who spoke in support of environmental protection was subjected to a 'shout over' then accused of being bad mannered is bizarre. The farcical EPA should be disposed of. At the very least, Allan Freeth should be sent down the road – the fish is obviously still rotting from the head.

    • ianmac 9.1

      Yes aom. Freeth represents those old men with old minds and contempt for new ideas especially if they come from youth. The National Party is littered with such people.

      • tc 9.1.1

        Freeth's all about Freeth. When at telstra clear he pretty much demanded to be in any ads being shot for his own self promotion.

        They lost good senior telco operators who grew sick of his ways and broken promises.

        he’s clearly a club member swanning about in troughsville now.

    • marty mars 9.2

      Snap! Sorry for double posting below.

  10. marty mars 10

    when the elephant in the room shits on you 

    Forest & Bird has called the EPA's reaction to a speech a student gave during a stakeholder meeting – which included sending an apology letter to attendees – "totally inappropriate".

    …Forest & Bird's Lower North Island regional manager Karen Evans was at the event and said she was taken aback by the response to the speech.

    "Allan Freeth publicly chastised her [the student] for lack of 'politeness' and the inappropriateness of the speech – seemingly more concerned about the offence caused to other 'invited guests'. From what I witnessed, I believe he was particularly acknowledging a rep from the oil and gas industry, who not only shouted at Sorcha during and after her speech, but immediately stormed out and accosted senior EPA staff to express his outrage at the 'ridiculousness', inappropriateness and 'bad taste' of her speech."

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/117378375/epas-inappropriate-reaction-to-students-speech

    • Dukeofurl 10.1

      Apart from  the 'inversion' by Freeth over what  was unacceptable. Shines a light on  'private meetings' EPA runs where it only wants to listen to one side.

      Looking at the management team seems to be far too many 'acting' in their job title, maybe one or 2. Theres is 6.

      https://www.epa.govt.nz/about-us/our-people/management-team/

    • RedBaron CV 10.2

      Lots to unpack out of that one? Inviting Greenpeace is a "gesture " but others (oil companies?) are stakeholders? Who decides the category – the EPA?

      Would this have happened if the speaker had not been a young person (woman) but an older white male?

      Lookd at the CEO expenses. Nothing much to the enviromental stakeholders, mostly CEO type meetings. Couldn't see when the board terms expired.

       

  11. joe90 11

    Roger Stone’s trial continues.

    “I do not recall discussing WikiLeaks with [Stone], nor do I recall being aware of Mr. Stone having discussed WikiLeaks with individuals associated with my campaign."

    – President Donald Trump

     

    https://www.politico.com/news/2019/11/12/roger-stone-trial-donald-trump-wikileaks-070368

  12. joe90 12

    Socialists and Unidas Podemos have made a preliminary deal to form a coalition government. 

    Caretaker Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez and the leader of left-wing Unidas Podemos, Pablo Iglesias, have signed a preliminary agreement to form a coalition government after Sunday’s inconclusive repeat general election in Spain. Despite months of negotiations between the parties to strike a governing deal following the April poll, the two leaders have done this deal less than 48 hours after Sunday’s vote

     

    https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/11/12/inenglish/1573562718_041862.html?

  13. Herodotus 13

    ILG just on the radio regarding Immigration – Labour in the 2017 election had no targets

    So that we have only a minimal reduction – we now have a need for many thousands of additional houses and large increase in cars on the road – No wonder we haveSTILL major issues that remain from the change of government – Time to deliver because the consequences of this NON  DELIVERY is crushing the country.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/117318375/the-dirty-little-secret-in-new-zealands-migration-debate

    "In total, these changes are estimated to reduce net migration by 20,000-30,000. Without these changes there would be up to 10,000 more houses needed and up to 20,000 more vehicles on our roads annually. Our immigration system will be regularly reviewed to ensure it is functioning well."

    https://www.labour.org.nz/immigration

  14. Peter 14

    I've been listening to Michelle Boag on RNZ. She hates the notions of common good and communities working together in education and schools, she wants dog-eat-dog competitive ways of operating. No surprise.

    I suppose in a world of free speech, getting a female dog on to spout narrow-minded, self serving rabidity probably helps cover the angles. Mind you she did say, "I know some principals."   I'd bet they haven't got empires to protect too. Not.

     

     

    • Anne 14.1

      I didn't hear it Peter but she'll be coming at it from the angle of "personal responsibility" and everyone having the "freedom to choose" etc. etc. In other words as you say… dog eat dog competition in all things.

      The thought of "common good" and "communities working together" would conjure up the dreaded word "socialism" in the books of the neo-liberal apostles, or even worse "communism". 

    • ianmac 14.2

      Bridges also said that in his shambolic interview this morning. He said he wants the competitive model to continue and spoke against the cooperative model. Idiot!

  15. One Two 15

    Andre. 7.2.2.1.1.1

    As you've backed away from no efficacy answer as well as completely  ignored the unapproved indication.

    – No vaccine efficacy profile exists

    – No licenced safety profile exists

    If you require further explanation of the above and why maternal antibodies are only relevant in vaccine context to illustrate how vaccines have created inferior maternal antibodies. We can have that conversation.

    To address the immune amnesia hypothesis, which is not new.

    First of all vaccine antibody theory needs to be examined. And for that the link below 

    Immunological memory ≠ protective immunity

    Rolf Martin Zinkernagel AC, FAA is Professor of Experimental Immunology at the University of Zurich.

    He was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1996 for the discovery of how the immune syatem recognises virus infected cells.

    Abstract

     

    'So-called 'immunological memory' is, in my view, a typical example where a field of enquiry, i.e. to understand long-term protection to survive reexposure to infection, has been overtaken by 'l'art pour l'art' of 'basic immunology'

    The remainder of the abstract is in the link provided.

    It's saying that ​​​​​​​immune memory  is not necessary for protective immunity.

    If correct, then immune amnesia isn’t relevant except to expose the desperation of the vaccine industry.

    Mina 2019 is flawed for many primary reasons. None more so than as linked to above.

    [You may have some good points to make but most of your comments create a foggy web of cherry-picked facts, links to humongous hard-to-read documents by (overseas) regulatory agencies, and science sophistry. The outcome is that you confuse people into thinking that vaccination is ineffective and dangerous and that governments, including NZ’s, and the pharma-industrial complex, cover this up.

    With a complex topic such as the immune system and the subject of vaccination, we need clarity and not somebody with an agenda and poor communication skills clouding people’s minds.

    For example, you quote Rolf Zinkernagel, Professor of Experimental Immunology at the University of Zurich and Nobel Laureate “for their discoveries concerning the specificity of the cell mediated immune defence”, to support your questionable opinions in a misleading appeal to authority. Zinkernagel questions how the idea of “immunological memory” explains the improved resistance against disease caused by a second infection with the same agent through vaccination and he rejects this concept. However, he does not reject the effectivity of vaccines and vaccination. In fact, it is quite the opposite.

    Here’s the full abstract of another more recent review by Zinkernagel in the high-impact journal IMMUNOLOGICAL REVIEWS:

    What if protective immunity is antigen-driven and not due to so-called “memory” B and T cells?

    Zinkernagel RM.

    Abstract
    Vaccines or early childhood exposure to infection mediate immunity, that is, improved resistance against disease and death caused by a second infection with the same agent. This has been explained by and equaled to immunological memory, that is, an “altered immune system behavior” that is maintained in a presumably antigen-independent fashion. This review summarizes epidemiological and experimental data, that largely falsify this idea and that show that periodic re-exposure to antigen either, artificially as vaccines or naturally as low-level persisting antigens or infections, or immune complexes on follicular dendritic cells or endemic re-exposure is necessary for protection. Both, the huge success of vaccines in controlling childhood infections, the reduction in clinical disease and the chance of endemically re-exposure, have gradually reduced periodical re-exposure to infections and thereby endangered protective herd immunity. In parallel, vaccine deniers have created susceptibility islands even in an otherwise well vaccinated population, thereby creating a very new situation when compared to the later parts of the 20th century. If protective Immunity is-as emphasized here-antigen driven, then increasingly frequent revaccinations will be necessary (even more so with too much attenuated vaccines) to maintain both herd immunity and individual resistance to acute infections. Of course, this rule also applies to tumor vaccines. [my emphasis]

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29664570

    The reason I quote the full abstract is that other people can read and come to their own conclusions rather than be guided by your nebulous comments and ‘statements of fact’.
    In summary, nobody is served by your comments here about vaccination. In fact, it confuses (‘drowns’) and misleads with potentially dire consequences. If you want to make a point about vaccination, keep it simple with clear arguments with integrity and in an honest manner. Banned for another two weeks and bans will escalate from hereon – Incognito]

    • Drowsy M. Kram 15.1

      That's an interesting April 2012 review by Zinkernagel.  Here's a more recent link regarding "Immunological memory: What’s in a name?"

      "Altogether, we agree with the conclusion proposed in the introductory reviewhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29664563 ]; that immunologic memory is best conceived of as a multi-dimensional concept with physical correlates in far more components of the adaptive and innate immune system than previously appreciated."

      It may be that our incomplete understanding of the 'arms race' between the human immune system and pathogens, coupled with evolving vaccination programmes, is incubating a crisis similar to the rise of multidrug-resistant pathogens fueled by the indiscriminate use of antibiotics.

      Nevertheless, remember this hopeful quote by Prof. Christine Stabell Benn in her January 2019 TEDx talk How vaccines train the immune system in ways no one expected:

      "And this makes vaccines the largest untapped resource for improving health globally." [ @13:30 minutes ]

      Targetted scientific research may yet enable clinicians to realise that vision.

      • One Two 15.1.1

        Hi Drowsy, good shout thanks for the link.

        That's an interesting April 2012 review by Zinkernagel. 

        If you have taken a look into RZ's background then you understand the credibility his assessments have regarding vaccination theory .

        The goalposts were shifted from the position I had aligned with the generic drug changes ,and the consequences coming to light of the dangers of the changes.

        The position was that of using unlicensed vaccines (Unapproved Indication) which lack not only an adequately proven P3 safety profile, but also are confirmed to have zero efficacy vaccine profile.

        Not Safe

        Not effective

        That leaves only a risk profile.

        The current government have deemed (on assumed advise of MOH/IMAC which those agencies in turn have been provided with from offshore) that it is appropriately safe and effective to inject 6-11mth babies with MMR vaccine.

        It is scientifically and medically the complete opposite. But this is where NZ finds itself as a result of 30 years of expanding government vaccine programs.

        Andre responded avoiding the discussion about unapproved indication and no efficacy answer, so it is not apparent if he believes it acceptable or not to used unlicensed vaccines on some of the most vulnerable age groups in NZ.

        Given that his direct relatives under 12mths were injected with MMR, it could be deduced he does agree in using unlicensed, useless and dangerous vaccines on 6-11mth babies.

        If you would like to discuss the how this has come to be NZ's public health decision, and the consequences of the entry and exit of such decision points, I would be more than happy to have that conversation with you initially.

        If not then the below may/may not be of interest.

        The Finland study is cited in NZ Immunisation Handbook 2017 as the safety study for the unapproved indication, and indeed is the only study cited/referenced in NZ's official MMR documents available to the public regarding MMR vaccine safety. The study is from 1986. Ref 24

        It was a vaccinated vs vaccinated study. Which can't provide any sane definition of a safety profile because the participants were already vaccinated, and were then vaccinated with MMR2 v non inert placebo vaccine.

        That is not  real science, which is precisely why the charade is currently falling apart around the world including NZ.

        • Study states that lack of boosting by wild virus increases rate of vaccine failure and creates expanding cohorts of susceptibles in all age groups
        • marty mars 15.1.1.1

          hey mate – got the kids vaccinated now. Thanks.

          • One Two 15.1.1.1.1

            Why do you reckon that is of any interest to me?

            Given how long ago you were bloating around shouting how you were going to vaccinate your kids anyway, and then got repeatedly emotional and abusive when I asked you to post the evidence. Perhaps you've forgotten?

            I don't care what you do marty, it's none of my business. But you had some inner sense of [whatever it was] which compelled you to bring that up yet again as if I believe anything you write.

            12-18 months or so, after you first said you were going to take action.

            So as you don't get the message mixed up again…

            I do not care what decisions you make about vaccinating your kids.

            • marty mars 15.1.1.1.1.1

              Cool – you kept going on about it so I wanted to tie it off – took a while to get it sorted. All done now. Thanks.

              • One Two

                you kept going on about it so I wanted to tie it off

                Your memory isn't very good Marty. I can re-post the conversations if you like?

                All done now

                Not comprehending well at all, are you. In the previous message twice I stated that I do not care.

                Thanks.

                That is twice you have thanked me, and if you can muster up the brain cells to recall the original conversation where I advised you not to take any decision outside of your own head in my direction.

                In thanking me, it feels like you are seeking to outsource your parental decision making [whatever form that comes] in my direction, yet again.

                I didn't ask to know your family business, marty. But I understand your head set from the years we have swapped messages here, that you felt like a big man putting it onto me, eh.

                The comment you responded to must have triggered the shit out of you. Yeah you were triggered, I can tell from the words you used. Again, don’t put your fear onto me.

                Just keep it to yourself, and perhaps continue to avoid reading the links and comments I post. The science contained isn't aligned with your alleged choices, it doesn’t support your alleged choices. Not at all, and the surface has not even been scratched.

                Kia Kaha

                • marty mars

                  you sound a bit worked up buddy – chillax, you don't care remember

                  • McFlock

                    chuckles

                     

                  • One Two

                    Do you have any thoughts or comments about NZ government and health agencies using an unlicensed vaccine which has no efficacy answer and no adequate safety profile?

                    Used on 6-11mths old babies outside the license issued by the FDA to the vaccine manufacturers ?

                    Do you understand the reasons of why this is happening ?

                    Edit: McFlock. Perhaps you might like to have a try?
                    Andre stil hasn’t a clue. What about the rest of you skeptics .

                    • marty mars

                      tbh I don't really think you're an authority on much and certainly not this subject – but you know that already. So just move on please. As I said – I just wanted to put your question to bed, which I have now done. Thanks.

                    • One Two []

                      Marty, your memory isn't good at all. It is distinctly like you’re trying to prove something to yourself.

                      It was never my question to enquire if you vaccinated your kids or not.

                      You stated a long time ago that you were going to. You shouted it numerous times because you couldn’t handle the contents of my comments.

                      All this time later and you still can’t handle it, but must show otherwise. Amazing.

                      I didn't ask you initially. Thats all your own wasted brain cells.

                      My comment and follow ups to you were for you to post the evidence of your actions, such was your bluster over an extended time. I asked you to post the evidence when you put yourself in my face, which you repeatedly did.

                      What does matter is that you have now selfishly wanted to close off what you started.

                      Hardly the actions of a reflective individual. More of a  narcissistic tendency IMO.

                      Oh, and anyone can be an authority on this or any subject, marty. 

                      All it takes is the ability to read and a network of people in various places doing lotsa science and legal stuff.

                      And the time invested to navigate through it.

                    • marty mars []

                      Lol whatever one two. 

                    • Climaction []

                      What network? The only network that pumps out anti-vaxx information is Facebook. Well known as a Russian misinformation platform.

                      one of Putin’s useful idiots are you?

                    • McFlock

                      Any broader contribution from me for this thread would only be to reiterate the fact that you're still plugging this scaremongering bullshit even after literally hundreds of people have been hospitalised.

                      And then my arse would cop a ban because I have no polite words with which to describe my opinion of you.

                    • One Two []

                      plugging this scaremongering bullshit after literally hundreds of people have been hospitalised.

                      I'm currently using the governments official public immunisation documents and referenced research citations , which illustrate the reasons for the issues faced.

                      That being caused by government vaccine programs. The primary study from 1986 says that vqccines failure will continue to become more of a problem

                      How is using govt documents and referenced scaremingering?

                      Read the Finland 1986 study I linked to. It’sall in there. Farcical.

                      Hospitalizations are a meaningless metric. Surely you understand why? 

                    • McFlock

                      yup. You will cherry-pick from govt documents and peer-reviewed articles, but you don't trust the data upon which many of those documents and articles are based.

                      Dunning-Kruger, come pick up your stupid kid.

                    • One Two []

                      Linking to Andres comment further exposes his level of misunderstanding of simple concepts like cherry picking consists of, and highlights his lack of basic comprehension.

                      It also signals there must be some other factors why the two of you denialists won't or can't  accept the govts own documents which tell you the studies they cite as evidence of safety with the vaccine program.

                      The study (singular) relied on as primary evidence of MMR vaccine safety is from 1986 and is an insult to science, medicine and the public health.

                      That singular study is currently being used by NZ agencies as evidence that it is safe to inject 6-11m babies with an unlicensed product with no efficacy profile and inadequate safety profile

                      The manufacturers approval licence was not issued for 6-11m babies. 

                      Because the P3 testing was not completed in that age group which is why the national schedule is and will remain starting at 12/15mths for MMR1.

                      Unsafe – No adequate safety profile. Off licence use.

                      No benefit – There is no efficacy answer.

                      The Immunisation Handbook and IMAC quick sheets cite the same singular study as evidence of MMR vaccine safety from 1986.

                      The data is garbage.

                    • McFlock

                      Meanwhile, hundreds of real people have been in hospital from a real disease.

    • Incognito 15.2

      See my Moderation note @ 6:44 PM.

  16. Eco maori 16

    Kia Ora 1 News. 

    I'm trying to teach my lot to be minimalist Ma Te Wa.

    One of My Tipuna philosophys was to grab new technologies vaxcernation are great to protect our tamariki.

    I don't stress at Christmas time now my Tamariki are grown. 

    Free I have a different reality it's like Ed TV 

    Ka kite Ano 

     

  17. Eco maori 17

    Ka pai to this new invention. You see if we invest in smart solutions to the challenges of becoming a carbon neutral society we will find them. 

    A bioplastic made of organic fish waste that would otherwise end up in landfill – with the potential to replace plastic in food and drink packaging – has landed its UK designer a prestigious international award and £30,000 prize.

    Lucy Hughes, 24, a graduate in product design from the University of Sussex, scooped the James Dyson award for her biodegradable and compostable material known as MarinaTex.

    Hughes sought to tackle the problems of environmentally harmful single-use plastics and inefficient waste streams by harnessing fish offcuts to create an eco-friendly plastic alternative. Global figures estimate that 40% of plastic produced for packaging is used once and discarded.

    Ka kite Ano link below. 

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/14/plastic-substitute-made-of-fish-waste-hauls-in-uk-designer-dyson-award

  18. Eco maori 18

    Ka pai to the Palau government for making laws to protect their reef fish. 

    The Palau government says its new National Marine Sanctuary Act enables islanders and tourists to eat pelagic fish while reducing demand for coral reef fish

    Aquarium Fish blue surgeonfish paracanthurus hepatus or blue tang, regal tang, palette surgeonfish.

    The minister for natural resources, environment and tourism, Fleming Sengebau, made the comment while attending the Pacific Ocean Finance Conference in Fiji this week

    Ka kite Ano link below. 

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/403323/palau-s-choose-pelagic-programme-protecting-reef-fish

  19. Eco maori 19

    Some Eco Maori Music For The Minute. 

  20. Eco maori 20

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News. 

    Condolences to the Samoan people who losted their tamariki. 

    America needs tougher gun laws. 

    Ka kite Ano 

     

     

  21. Eco maori 21

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News. 

    Someone needs to be held accountable for the Shambles that health services is in up North. 

    Congratulations to all the Tangata who got tohu at the Waiata awards.

    Maraki is a great company that shows that Tangata Whenua O Aotearoa have the skills of our Tipuna.

    Ka pai for Te Kura for teaching the correct history. We have to teach all of our tamariki our true history so they can understand why Maori are we're we are at the minute. 

    Ka kite Ano 

     

     

  22. Eco maori 22

    Here is one of my favourite subjects mitigate climate change to protect all our Mokopuna future. 

    The IEA expects the growth of renewables to accelerate over the coming decades, but warned it would not be enough to put a ceiling on the energy sector’s emissions before 2040.

    Dr Fatih Birol, the IEA’s executive director, said there was a “deep disparity” between the aim to tackle the climate crisis by curbing carbon emissions and the existing policies which had allowed a “relentless upward march” for emissions.

    The IEA’s latest figures estimate that carbon emissions are on track to keep rising by 100m tonnes a year for at least another 20 years under existing policy plans.

    This rate would be two-thirds slower than the emissions hikes recorded in previous decades, but would fall very far short of what is needed to achieve the goals of the Paris agreement.

    “We will need to see great political will around the world,” Birol said. “This is why I believe that the world needs to build a grand coalition encompassing governments, investors, companies and everyone else who is genuinely committed to tackling climate change.”

    The IEA said it presented the modelling based on stated policies to “hold up a mirror” to global governments to show the consequences of their policies.

    Ka kite Ano link below. 

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/13/climate-change-do-more-now-or-risk-catastrophe-warns-energy-agency

  23. Eco maori 23

    Here is a interesting Phenomenon. 

    Venice council flooded moments after rejecting climate crisis plan

    Rightwing parties reject proposals as lagoon city faces worst flooding in 53 years

    Veneto’s regional council rejected a plan to combat climate change minutes before its offices on the Grand Canal, in Venice, were flooded, it has emerged as the city continues to battle high water levels.

    Venice has been hit by recurrent flooding since Tuesday, with 70% of the lagoon city engulfed on Friday morning as the acqua alta, or high water, level reached 1.54 metres amid heavy downpours. Tuesday night, as Veneto councillors were debating the climate emergency in Ferro Fini Palace, Venice experienced its worst flooding since 1966.

    Politicians from the regional council’s majority rightwing parties: the League, Brothers of Italy and Forza Italia, rejected amendments to fight the climate crisis in the 2020 budget that were proposed by the centre-left Democratic party.

    Sharing pictures of the room as water entered, Andrea Zanoni, the Democratic party’s deputy chairman of the council’s environment committee, wrote on Facebook: “Ironically, the chamber was flooded two minutes after the majority parties rejected our proposals to tackle climate change

    Ka kite Ano link below. 

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/15/venice-council-flooded-moments-after-rejecting-climate-crisis-plan

  24. Eco maori 24

    Kia Ora 1 News. 

    That's awesome that our biggest food company's are lowering the sugar and salt in our food. Whanau I dropped coffee and tea out of my diet to just Wai well 99. Of the time for the first time my blood pressure has reduced. 

    Prefabricated whare is the way of the future just like Tiny Whare the beauty about Tiny Whare is the bank won't own your hip pocket for life.

    Ka kite Ano 

  25. Eco maori 25

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News. 

    I think Hawaii needs renewable energy from my research most of Hawaii power comes from diesel generators may be a bit of talking to make it work we have to grab new technologies and make it work for Pacific tangata. 

    Dr Henare Williams book Kaumatua is a book I would like to read. 

    Ka kite Ano 

     

     

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