Open mike 13/12/2023

61 comments on “Open mike 13/12/2023 ”

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1. Tony Veitch 1

   13 December 2023 at 6:12 am

   “People might object to the framing of fossil fuel executives and traders as criminals, but these people are deliberately and knowingly trying to kill us for profit. They are deliberately and knowingly trying to burn our homes, drown our cities, and starve and bake us to death. What else should we call them?”

   Strong words from No Right Turn.

   I wonder if we could include politicians who advocate for continued oil and gas exploration in the ‘criminal’ class? Shane Jones, for instance?

   https://norightturn.blogspot.com/2023/12/climate-change-not-just-phase-out-but.html
   • Robert Guyton 1.1

     13 December 2023 at 7:26 am

     The trouble with branding politicians as criminals is demonstrated by the antivaxxers' claim that Jacinda Ardern was a criminal because of her role in vaccinating New Zealanders.
     • Tony Veitch 1.1.1

       13 December 2023 at 7:48 am

       The antivaxxers based their abuse on poor or misunderstood science and/or conspiracy bs.

       Whereas, climate change is real and likely to end the human (and other) species. Denying science in the face of overwhelming evidence is verging on the demented and, IMO, on the criminal. After all, if you know something is wrong, yet deliberately go ahead and do it, you may be breaking the law?

       Mind you, that assumes Jones is intelligent enough to read and understand the science!
       • weka 1.1.1.1

         13 December 2023 at 9:52 am

         good luck with convincing people politically that your facts are supreme and theirs are stupid.

         how's that working out for climate action? Or even voting in a general election.
       • Tricledrown 1.1.1.2

         13 December 2023 at 10:54 am

         Shane Jones got a scholarship to an ivy league university.

         Obviously not in science. NZ first garnered their support by Dog Whistling the antivax conspiracy theorists. Now Shane no Shame Jones is playing the Trump card tell lies and keep repeating them and then tell bigger lies to make the little lies look like the Truth.

         Funny listening to the Radio news Shame On you Jones report that global warming is fake news.Then the next news item was about Spain experiencing the worst year for fires caused by record temperatures and it was a record high temp for the World.

         Just shows how big an idiot you have to be to tell such a bigly lie!
     • Tony Veitch 1.1.2

       13 December 2023 at 8:14 am

       This speech by Jones is probably the most disgraceful I've ever heard from years of listening to Parliament! I get so bloody angry listening to the bloated blowhard that . . . I feel like kicking the cat!

       https://ondemand.parliament.nz/parliament-tv-on-demand/?itemId=236921
   • mikesh 1.2

     13 December 2023 at 8:13 am

     I drive an ICE car from time to time so I must be a criminal as well.
     • Tony Veitch 1.2.1

       13 December 2023 at 8:15 am

       Very possibly!

       (If only because you obviously haven’t read No Right Turn’s post)
   • Patricia Bremner 1.3

     13 December 2023 at 10:42 am

     Tony, him indoors says "Jones has joined the nutters". after he heard him this morning.
   • gsays 1.4

     13 December 2023 at 12:15 pm

     Any thoughts on those that enable and empower these executives?

     By that I mean the vast majority of the public that can't afford/justify an EV, use supermarkets and lead a very high, carbon dense lifestyle.
     • Patricia Bremner 1.4.1

       13 December 2023 at 2:15 pm

       Yes plenty… give us yours. As usual your Q sounds as though you personally don't add carbon.
       • gsays 1.4.1.1

         13 December 2023 at 6:35 pm

         I'm sorry if that is the impression I give. I acknowledge the hypocrisy around so many of the choices I make.

         One of my abiding principles is to know that every dollar I spend is a political decision. Most of my wardrobe, small workshop tools and kitchen appliances is from Op-Shops, I share as much is possible the surplus from our gardens and chooks. Making biochar and borderline preaching its benefits is part of my kaupapa. (Without making the carbon sequestering front and centre.)

         I suppose the gist of it all my comment is to push back on othering as a solution to CC. To quote a brilliant Canadian, who's name is best not uttered, part of the solution is to 'tidy your room'. Get your own house in order before chucking rocks at others. After all, we are all in this together.
2. Robert Guyton 2

   13 December 2023 at 7:37 am

   I watched Parliament's Question Time live yesterday. So did Nick Rockel.

   Winston Peters, acting as Prime Minister, behaved in a very unpleasant manner, was truculent, spiteful and rude.

   Nick wrote about Luxon's stand-in in detail:

   "I thought it was utterly disgraceful conduct. Te Reo is an official language in this country and there is, and was, a translation service available for those who, like Mr Peters, don’t speak the language."

   https://nickrockel.substack.com/p/acting-prime-ministerially
   • Sanctuary 2.1

     13 December 2023 at 7:54 am

     Unfortunately, we appear to be moving rapidly towards a generational showdown akin to the Springbok Tour.
     • Ad 2.1.1

       13 December 2023 at 10:38 am

       Is unity what we need right now?

       We had 6 years of enforced ideological peace. But we're in opposition now.

       Why not be noisy and disruptive?
       • Sanctuary 2.1.1.1

         13 December 2023 at 10:51 am

         Well things got pretty unpleasant back then, plenty of blood was spilled and it was really only a miracle one was lynched, and society was a rather more civil than now. Still, it takes what it takes.
       • adam 2.1.1.2

         13 December 2023 at 11:06 am

         Hear, hear
3. Sanctuary 3

   13 December 2023 at 7:50 am

   Listening to Shane Jones – welcome to the transition from Key's cronyism to the outright corruption of Luxon.
   • Tricledrown 3.1

     13 December 2023 at 11:03 am

     NZfirst are finished next election Shane Jones doesn't have the pulling power of Peter's.

     This is Winnie the Poohs last stand he is throwing his weight around to satisfy his massive narcissistic ego .

     I predict Luxon will have had enough of this idiot showing him up causing loss of popularity.That National dark ops will be working to split Peter's MPs from his party Ala 1998 style.
     • bwaghorn 3.1.1

       13 December 2023 at 12:07 pm

       National should offer jones a safe uncontested cup of tea seat , if he knives Winston
     • Belladonna 3.1.2

       13 December 2023 at 7:46 pm

       NZfirst are finished next election

       People said exactly the same thing about Peters in the 2017-2020 government. Never safe to count Peters out.

       There is zero chance that Peters will permit white-anting of his MPs. Having been caught out by this in the past, he's a firm believer in the Waka Jumping legislation – and absolutely will use it if necessary (possibly the only party leader in Parliament who would do so unequivocally).

       And his MPs know he would. Any disloyalty would be rewarded by a quick trip out of Parliament, and promotion of the next placed on the list.

       Expect very firm party discipline from NZ First when it counts. Peters will be tolerant of verbal fireworks by MPs for self-promotion (and may even encourage this – all publicity is good publicity) – but his MPs will vote exactly when and where he tells them to.
       • mickysavage 3.1.2.1

         13 December 2023 at 8:17 pm

         NZ First was voted out in 2020.
         • Belladonna 3.1.2.1.1

           13 December 2023 at 8:22 pm

           Yes – and there was a perfect storm of "NZ first are finished" commentary.

           What happened in 2023?
4. Ad 4

   13 December 2023 at 8:24 am

   This government has such an impressive sense of speed to it; the reversal of super-active and interventionist government with really high moral expectations of behavioural change, …

   … to one of small government with few plans and even fewer solutions or national structures in which to achieve anything, is at least as fast as that of Roger Douglas 38 years ago even if on a far smaller scale.

   And done with such impatient grumpy truculance to perfectly match the mood of the population.
   • Sanctuary 4.1

     13 December 2023 at 10:59 am

     Last hurrah of the era of boomer liberalism, born 1984 in the rebellion against the post war settlement and apartheid, dying in the rest home of Peters & Jones bigoted old man reckons.

     To paraphrase T. S. Eliot

     ‘This is the way their world ends, not with a benediction but a snarl.’
     • Adrian 4.1.1

       13 December 2023 at 4:32 pm

       OK Sanctuary,do you mean the generation that protested and won about Nuclear Proliferation, a nuclear-free Pacific, Manapouri, the Vietnam War, the 1968 protests in France and the US, Apartheid, Springbok tours, Iraq War, Abortion, foreshore and seabed, ad infinitum. We, the so called Boomers did all that, the generations that have followed us have just sat on their arses, barely looked up from their phones and done fuck all. Look at any of the growing marches today, we are still there, grey haired and grumpy and battlehardened ready to go again. So stop bagging us, we've been there and done that.
   • Patricia Bremner 4.2

     13 December 2023 at 2:20 pm

     "This government has such an (impressive?) reckless and dangerous sense of speed to it." There I fixed it for you Ad. Wobbles and crashes will begin.
5. Reality 5

   13 December 2023 at 9:51 am

   What an embarrassing shambles this government is. What a long three years ahead of us. Winston Peters and Shane Jones are behaving like playground loudmouths and bullies, showing off and being objectionable and rude. Pathetic attention seekers.
   • Anne 5.1

     13 December 2023 at 11:08 am

     Personally I think Shane Jones is the more dangerous. He couches his communiques in flowery language which can be deceiving for many, but what he is actually saying is, in the long term, detrimental for his constituents as well as the country as a whole. A good example is his intention to roll back CC initiatives – no doubt with the support of ACT:

     https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/12/shane-jones-says-new-zealand-won-t-meet-dreamy-fairytale-2030-paris-agreement-goal.html
     • Rodel 5.1.1

       13 December 2023 at 5:11 pm

       Jones doesn't have constituents. Like Peters, no- one voted him into parliament.
       • Anne 5.1.1.1

         13 December 2023 at 5:19 pm

         I was using the term loosely to describe those voters who voted for him as the NZ First candidate in Northland.
       • bwaghorn 5.1.1.2

         13 December 2023 at 5:40 pm

         Maybe if your being pedantic, but they where elected by people who new it was a list seat paryy. , so they are elected by voters. Your just using the knuckle daggers attack line used on all list mps !
       • Belladonna 5.1.1.3

         13 December 2023 at 5:43 pm

         All of the people who party-voted for NZF voted him into parliament (hardly "no-one").

         He has just as much responsibility to them, as Shaw and Davidson do to the Green party voters; and Grant Robertson and Willie Jackson do to the Labour party voters.

         Indeed, it can be argued that list MPs have greater levels of responsibility – since their ‘consistuency’ explicitly voted for them (or at least, knew their list placing). While electorate MPs are responsible for representing those people who didn’t vote for them, as well as those who did.
   • Adrian 5.2

     13 December 2023 at 12:38 pm

     I don't think it will be that long I'm sure the odds are shortening on longevity by the day.
     • Patricia Bremner 5.2.1

       13 December 2023 at 2:22 pm

       Yes Adam, they don't have to pay the dead.
6. Incognito 6

   13 December 2023 at 4:12 pm

   Not all Māori think the same; who would have thought?

   She [Lara Greaves, an associate professor of politics] said Māori enrolled on the General Roll tended to have differing political views than voters on the Māori Roll, but those wouldn’t necessarily mirror the non-Māori population.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/133423630/who-in-parliament-has-the-mandate-to-represent-mori
7. Sanctuary 7

   13 December 2023 at 4:30 pm

   Looks like no new Cook strait ferries until 800 or so tourists drown when one of the clapped out ones that needs replacing sinks in a storm sometime in the not to distant future.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/301025748/nz-politics-live-new-interislander-ferries-in-question-government-will-not-fund-cost-blowout
   • SPC 7.1

     13 December 2023 at 4:45 pm

     The current plan for new ferries was contingent on funding for dockside capacity modernisation. So it's all off – probably with an extra cost of pulling out of a shipbuilding contract.

     The current state of affairs is not sustainable either, and one might well sink in a storm (sans working engine). It will be like the old Hercules. Go when fit to, thus an unreliable schedule for business.

     For mine it looks like a big corporation (Infratil) will take over the Cook Strait – it certainly takes away Kiwi Rail's ability to develop further and provide competition to them. I now fear for NZ Rail and KiwiBank.

     What it signals for coastal shipping plan and the ability to manage loss of regional roads with storms … is not good. Especially given National has raided the fund for climate change events.

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/government-declines-to-fund-cook-strait-mega-ferry-cost-blowout/S6IKNKO6KJCI3HOWDRPTQB6WOU/
     • Belladonna 7.1.1

       13 December 2023 at 5:53 pm

       Looks as though the cost-blow-outs – more than double, and the amount of funding tied to shore infrastructure, rather than the ferries, was the final straw.

       Suggest that KiwiRail concentrate on smaller ferries (i.e. same size as now), which can be accommodated using the current port facilities. And, look at more frequent sailings, with more ships – rather than scaling up. Bigger is not always better. Build in redundancy, allowing for breakdowns (inevitable) and maintenance.
       • Muttonbird 7.1.1.1

         13 December 2023 at 5:58 pm

         Seems inefficient and likely to cost a lot more over time. But that is conservative NZ's m.o.
       • SPC 7.1.1.2

         13 December 2023 at 7:12 pm

         One issue was rail capable ferries

         There is a massive ideological debate to come between the governing parties over whether to make the new ferries rail capable.

         That's partly how the blowout began. New Zealand First wanted rail capable ferries which meant the infrastructure needed to be upgraded too. The port costs were going to be 80 percent of the overall cost.

         Willis isn't ruling out rail capable ferries, but she's not promising them either.

         Cancelling this project in some eyes basically leaves the proposition: is this the end of rail?

         Willis has a mammoth task ahead of her to come up with a proposal that meets both her commitment to better value for money and New Zealand First's determination to advocate for rail.

         https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/12/jenna-lynch-analysis-what-are-the-options-for-new-cook-strait-crossing-now-interislander-project-has-been-sunk.html

         It makes one wonder about the governments plans as per money for Kiwi Rail, it looks like a plan to offload Kiwi Rail once they no longer need NZ First.

         Infratil are the large scale investor in infrastructure and might partner Mainfreight.
         • Belladonna 7.1.1.2.1

           13 December 2023 at 7:32 pm

           The current ferries are rail capable. There seems no reason to believe that replacements necessarily have to be larger (and therefore require new berthing facilities).

           It seemed like an ideological approach around operations – larger ferries cost proportionally less to crew (virtually the same number of crew required, regardless of the size of ferry). Rather than one based around redundancy and flexibility (smaller ferries sailing more often).
           • SPC 7.1.1.2.1.1

             13 December 2023 at 7:42 pm

             This explains the context about the term rail-ferry.

             It’s not about crew, but time as per loading.

             https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/380537/interislander-ferries-to-be-replaced-with-rail-ready-fleet
             • Belladonna …

               13 December 2023 at 7:59 pm

               From the linked article, one of the current ferries – Aratere – can take rail. Nothing stopping Kiwirail from buying that style of ferry as a replacement.

               The proposal was to replace the current 3 ferries with 2 substantially larger ones. Which is an absolute reduction in flexibility and redundancy. If one is out (and it can happen for a whole raft of reasons) your carrying capacity is reduced by 50%, rather than the current 33%. This was a less resilient strategy, not a more resilient one.

               Also the cost inflation: $200 million each in 2019 – more than 3 billion in the latest estimate (with costs almost certain to increase further). It sounds as though the vast majority of the cost inflation wasn't the boats, but the landside infrastructure required for the substantially larger ferries.
   • Ad 7.2

     13 December 2023 at 6:30 pm

     This is a really serious blow to a multi-billion programme.

     WTF
     • Pat 7.2.1

       13 December 2023 at 6:41 pm

       I think that is the problem….it wasnt supposed to be a multi billion dollar project.

       https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/125620974/halfbilliondollar-contract-to-build-two-new-interislander-ferries-signed
       • SPC 7.2.1.1

         13 December 2023 at 7:27 pm

         It's an article about buying two ferries, this story is about the on land port development costs.
         • Pat 7.2.1.1.1

           13 December 2023 at 7:32 pm

           Have you failed to make the connection?

           Why do the ports need to be developed?
           • SPC 7.2.1.1.1.1

             13 December 2023 at 7:39 pm

             It's not the cost of buying the two ferries which has blown out.
             • Pat …

               13 December 2023 at 8:00 pm

               No, its the choice of ferry that has required the port redevelopments….and the consequent cost blow out.

               I will admit I thought as the ferries had been contracted the project would continue despite cost blow outs….but that was before the latest request for an additional 1.5 billion.

               Im not sure that even the previous government would continue in light of that.
8. adam 8

   13 December 2023 at 4:52 pm

   Tory scum fast track to repeal fair pay act 2022.

   SCUM

   PUNCHING DOWN SCUM
   • Belladonna 8.1

     13 December 2023 at 5:58 pm

     But hardly news.

     National and ACT opposed it at the time, and promised to repeal it when next in Government. It was a very clear plank in their campaign policy. People knew what they were voting for.

     https://www.national.org.nz/national_would_repeal_fair_pay_agreements

     https://www.act.org.nz/small-business
     • Robert Guyton 8.1.1

       13 December 2023 at 6:42 pm

       "People knew what they were voting for."

       Pffffffffft
       • how big is your hole 8.1.1.1

         13 December 2023 at 7:05 pm

         True that Robert, I've had chats with a few people (I'm a union rep) who have been surprised the Govt are scrapping the FPA &/or they are doing them so fast. Even though they obviously voted for them. One person told me they voted National because the "Maori stuff was going a bit too far".
       • Belladonna 8.1.1.2

         13 December 2023 at 7:34 pm

         Gosh, do you have some evidence that people blindly voted for National/ACT/NZ first – without knowing their policies?

         Or that anyone is surprised by the government’s well-signalled repeal of the Fair Pay Act?
         • weka 8.1.1.2.1

           13 December 2023 at 8:51 pm

           I don't know the numbers, but you know there are heaps of people that don't follow politics right?
           • Belladonna 8.1.1.2.1.1

             13 December 2023 at 9:22 pm

             But they vote?

             It's not as if the National and ACT parties were hiding their policies – they were in black and white on their website. And they actively campaigned on the repeal of the FPA – both when it was enacted, and during the election campaign.

             The repeal policy was highlighted by the left during the campaign. And covered by media during the campaign.

             https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/495299/change-of-government-a-threat-to-200-000-people-s-fair-pay-agreements-union

             If, after all of that, people are 'surprised' by the new government repealing the FPA – they must be living in a barrel, apart from coming out to vote.

             Of course, they could be surprised by a government actually enacting (or in this case, repealing) legislation – based on their campaign promises….
             • weka …

               13 December 2023 at 9:40 pm

               I'm guessing most people in NZ don't read National's website.

               yes, there are people who vote who don't know much about politics. That's democracy, or at least the form we have currently.
               • Belladonna …

                 14 December 2023 at 10:41 am

                 I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't track down policies on a political party website.

                 However, this was covered when the At was passed (2022) and during the election campaigning (FPA was covered by both sides); and also by the media (again potential FPA repeal covered extensively)

                 If they choose not to pay attention to any of this, then they deserve the government they voted for…

                 Personally, while I find it … regrettable… that the idiot-down-the-road's (ill-considered) vote counts for just as much as my (well informed) one – that is the reality of democracy. And, I'm not a fan of any of the alternatives.
                 • weka …

                   14 December 2023 at 10:54 am

                   If they choose not to pay attention to any of this, then they deserve the government they voted for…

                   I agree. But the issue was whether everyone knew or not, and it's entirely plausible that many people voted for a range of reasons nothing to do with being informed on policy.
9. Adrian 9

   13 December 2023 at 8:20 pm

   I think Willis has a cunning plan, a plan so cunning etc etc that involves getting the Chinese to take it over as a Belt and Road project, a communist run scheme that is so popular and competent that Meloni the communist leader or the 7th largest economy in the world has told them to take it and shove it up their jacksie.

   ” Look aren’t I clever, a free ferry system “. Almost certainly doomed to end up where the last communist ship in those waters ended up.

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