Open mike 13/07/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 13th, 2015 - 150 comments
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150 comments on “Open mike 13/07/2015 ”

  1. Northsider 1

    English Labour will not vote against the Tory government’s welfare bill and should not oppose Tories limiting child tax credits to two children, the party’s interim leader, Harriet Harman, has said. Her remarks came as the shadow education secretary, Tristam Hunt, warned the party that it was becoming an irrelevance at a frightening speed.

    Seemingly bennie bashing is how you become relevant.

    Labour is reinforcing predjudices about family size being the cause of poverty. Bear in mind these tax credits are for working families. The English Labour Party is in disarray and air heads like Harman and Hunt are joining the Tories in slapping the working class for daring to have families.http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/12/harman-labour-not-vote-against-welfare-bill-limit-child-tax-credits

    • infused 1.1

      Having a bigger family doesnt excatly jelp does it?

      • Crashcart 1.1.1

        “If we can’t get them out, we’ll breed them out”

      • Northsider 1.1.2

        Help with what?

      • weka 1.1.3

        infused, who is going to wipe your arse when you are too old and decrepit to do it yourself? Just curious.

        • Adele 1.1.3.1

          Kiaora, weka

          Ha ha. You are so right. Unless, in the not to distant future, they invent a robot with a fourth law embedded in its neural net which axiomatically decrees – wipe bottom – Do Not Exterminate, Mr Octogenerian Infused will have to put up with the working poor taking care of his bodily functions.

          But in saying that, he will receive generally excellent care.

          The robot on the other will quickly and logically conclude – wiping bottom sucks – exterminate, exterminate.

    • Paul 3.1

      Did you that terrible interview on RNZ?
      Good to hear listeners’ feedback supporting Twyford and slamming RNZ for its bias as well as the government for doing nothing about the crisis.

    • les 3.2

      anyone screaming about racism over there!

  2. Vaughan Little 4

    I’ve been reflecting on the kerfuffle over chinese investment in nz’s real estate. some random points:

    it’s fairly easy to distinguish between who comes from the prc and who comes from.the diaspora because the communist state early on adopted a distinctive form of romanization of Chinese words called pinyin. I’m not sure if the salmond factored this in to his surprisingly underappreciated methodology.

    Chinese are vulnerable in nz. any sort of negative press, such as what labour has been running, will probably result in more street level racial abuse. I doubt that Chinese associations in nz or any pakeha institutions would be well placed to pick up on such trends. liberal nz’s policy settings are based on the false premise that multiculturalism is easy, and so there isn’t an institutional depth around trying to grasp the lived experience of migrant communities -though I’d be interested to learn more about the tools that the race relations conciliator has available.

    the Chinese state and local Chinese idiots are capable of truly horrific behaviour, and innocent Chinese are regularly caught up in the blowback. I’m thinking of the anti China riots in Vietnam recently when beijing plonked an oil rig in vietnamese waters, surrounding it with burly and aggressive ships. taiwanese businesses were attacked – pretty much anyone who was chineseish was in danger. even China’s immediate neighbours can be quite ignorant of the various communities that loosely come under the adjective “chinese”. also you get all sorts of outrageous behaviour from usually mainland businesspeople that gets the locals antsy about anyone who seems chinese. that’s mostly what’s behind the often strong anti-Chinese sentiment in africa. that and the success, and the numbers.

    genuine question – where is the space in the public domain for people to say “I feel bad about these buggers moving in”. cos a lot of people are feeling that. I remember a couple of Myanmar refugees telling me in Wellington in 2007 something like “there are so many Chinese everywhere”. confusedly. it just seems to me that resentment is building up, and it’s dangerous to simply say “fuck off dumb racist”. cos the problem doesn’t fuck off.

    political parties tend to be quite shit at engaging in migrant communities. to do it proper you need biculturalism – basically people who are conversant in the majority plus other cultures. and that takes yearsnyears of language learning, travel, lived experience, etc etc. essentially nzers lack the skills to be able to forge a coherent society out of a fractured one. we’ve got multiculturalism on the cheap, which turns out to be not good for much beyond the diversity of the shopping mall foodcourt.

    • Charles 4.1

      re: “…genuine question…”.

      The internet? And when you say “people” do those people include you? Whoever those people are, why, or what hurdles do they have to reaching an understanding of the things they think and how those things may or may not be threatened, or which things are threatened, or even why they think the way they do?

      Are they happy to be against others because of race and leave it there?

      From a pakeha perspective, is there a cultural reason (or of course, time, ability) that they cannot just pause for a moment and work back from “there are too many chinese everywhere” and figure out what scares them about that? As a European it’s “normal” for me to suggest this fairly clumsy method because my psychological heritage stands outside the subconscious looking in as a stranger. What is their cultural position, traditionally? What ideas are they carrying (beneficial or not) that they take for granted that holds them back from examining their beliefs like that? How are they resistent to Western thinking, if at all?

      And more importantly, does it even matter? A pakeha racist might go from “too many Chinese” to “let’s attack the next one we see!” naturally. But if you were from Myanmar and a buddhist, you might think, “Ok so too many Chinese. Bastards.” and then go back to whatever you’re doing and nothing more comes of it, ever. If the problem is a negative personal experience (causing the ill-feeling), not much can be done in the “public domain” and at an early stage, internet-venting might actually make it worse.

      • vaughan little 4.1.1

        my personal take is, people tend to be fearful of change, and large scale immigration is one kind of change.

        people are also usually more comfortable dealing with their own kind…

        so these are legitimate, human fears that are ubiquitous and easy to understand .

        i live in china, suffer from racism quite a bit. i accept that a lot of it is coming from a very human place, so it doesn’t bother me. there are plenty of folk who can handle foreigners, and plenty who can’t so well. that’s all normal. i’ve also been attacked by groups of men a couple of times on racial grounds. i’d put that at the less legitimate end of the scale of behaviour around dealing with foreigners. but it’s really about them, not me, and i wish them well.

        we live in a big diverse world and some people are better than others at handling that diversity turning up on their doorstep. but you need to appreciate the concept of “home”. this place is the home of others in a more intimate way than it is my home, so while i’m a local i’ll also always be a guest.

        it’s sort of contradictory to espouse a cosmopolitanism that looks down on people who aren’t able to espouse it.

      • vaughan little 4.1.2

        doing some more thinking about it:

        i come from a Christian angle, and the differences from liberalism re: racism are thus:

        liberals believe that racism can be defeated. they believe in progress – things getting better and better. thus you hear phrases like “we have to move past racism”. what is racism grounded in according to this worldview? probably bad thinking, which can be educated away, and possibly bad attitudes such as selfishness, that can be dropped. ironically, in this worldview, you’re able to relatively easily become unracist, so if you don’t it means you are (choosing to be) inferior. so liberals look down on people for looking down on people. awesome.

        i believe that racism will always be with us. “progress” does not exist. i believe it’s a question of character, and character runs deep and is not so easy to change. humans are morally weak and deserve greater empathy in their failings than liberals are generally disposed to afford them. jesus comes to a failing world in love, it’s satan who accuses (terry eagleton points out that the popular modern idea of the christian god actually fits the biblical idea of satan – the accuser who is out to get you if you screw up (the word satan is hebrew for accuser). point being, christians are required to practice empathy toward ‘bad people’, which is a world away from the snide liberal pooh pooing).

        liberals follow tolerance and freedom, christians follow hospitality and the imperatives of love. for a liberal, it’s ok to allow people to immigrate, and let them do their thing without engaging with them at any serious level. for christians that’s not ok. we need to be inviting them into our homes, eating with them, and having our horizons expanded as we try to figure out how to support or simply be there for them, to live alongside them. for example: wellington refugee and migrant services was started by a group of churches – not the local atheists’ knitting club. for another example: my church ran free english classes for refugees and migrants. for a lot of them it was their only regular contact with new zealanders. new new zealanders cannot become new zealanders simply by dint of a change in citizenship status. hospitality is a vital part in becoming a local. i used to teach chinese students whose only interaction with kiwis was transactional – involving the handing over of money – be it the landlord, the esl teacher or the local shop keeper. there’s a lot of freedom and toleration in that, but it’s crap. and the chinese students knew it was crap. “come to new zealand and buy stuff!” yeah right.

        when a migrant suffers from racism, they need to be able to talk it out with someone. if they’re only discussing that shit with other migrants, well that’s a recipe for brewing a world of resentment and bitterness. when migrants have actual born and bred kiwis to talk about their struggles with, it goes a huge way to making them feel accepted and part of things. new zealand is really doing this immigration thing too cheaply, and it opens the way for a toxic legacy down the track.

        • Acting Up 4.1.2.1

          Cheers Vaughan Little; good to read your thoughtful perspective on this.

    • rhinocrates 4.2

      Racists look for “enablement”. It’s the prime principle of the dogwhistle. If someone prominent says something that they can use as justification for their behaviour, they’ll feel they’ve been let off the leash.

      One of the most frequent mistakes politicians make is to assume that the only message people receive is the one they intend to send as text or subtext, not the one that people want to hear themselves.

      Before it was the leakers like Goff and Robertson who wanted people to think that David Cunliffe was unfit to lead Labour when the message received was that Labour as a whole was unfit to govern. Now the message being received is that Labour says Chinese people are bad, and certainly National and Act have gleefully leapt at the opportunity to make use of this.

      God only knows why I’m being so generous. Must be lingering sentiment.

      • vaughan little 4.2.1

        “Labour says Chinese people are bad”

        Labour says that 9% of probable Chinese in a fraction of the population are probably not doing something bad for the economy, and 30% of probable Chinese in that fraction are probably doing something bad for it.

        this is all about hot money inflows.

        when you have the wrong end of the stick, best thing is to let it go and walk away.

        • rhinocrates 4.2.1.1

          Read it again. Especially my second sentence.

          Labour can say one thing and be heard another. Right now they’re defending themselves against charges of racism because some people construe their message as racist and because it’s being painted as racist. The facts are getting lost.

  3. target selected

    Mr Little said while some people had claimed it was racist, several Aucklanders had applauded it.

    “If the feedback out of Auckland is anything to go by, I expect we’ll have a lot of support in the policy we’ve put up.

    “We understood the risks but we thought that having got information that clearly highlights an issue that is consistent with what we’ve been saying, we made the judgment it should be disclosed. I think people need to know.”

    He said Labour’s critics should be concerned about first-home buyers being squeezed out of the market.

    “Our first moral duty is to those who live here, and that includes those of Chinese ethnicity who have chosen to live here, or whose parents or grandparents chose to live here. They are the people we care about.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11479813

    Check out the photo they have used of little.

    The wind has changed and now anybody can be chucked under the labour bus – for the first moral duty.

    • infused 5.1

      No different than the old fat photos of farrer thestandard still uses or the stupid ones of john key.

      • Crashcart 5.1.1

        Except, you know, that is the Herald which is a national publication that is supposed to be neutral and the standard is a blog which openly comes from the left.

        • infused 5.1.1.1

          All media uses whatever means to grab attention though doesn’t it?

          I’m not defending the papers either. They are all equally as shit… well most media in NZ.

    • Charles 5.2

      Shit. So that settles it then. They say they knew the risks. haha “the risks”? It’s not a “risk” when you chose to ring the race cowbell. That’s a choice. They knew the choices. Get it right, Andrew.

      Is this a “dead rat” issue? Because stirring up racial tensions wil get a party elected, and the Left needs Labour unless the unthinkable happens and people flock to the Greens and Mana in a totally unforeseen landslide. But really, the ongoing cost of the race card, is it worth it? This is more like a “dead horse” issue, or a re-interred partially thawed and rotting ice-mammoth issue. Two years out, and The Greens are bolstering National’s anti-free speech laws and Labour are ringing the race bells. Christ. Can not wait for 2017. That year is clearly going to be insane.

      • Charles 5.2.1

        And hasn’t he committed a bit of a general cultural faux pas by suggesting present day Chinese are not connected to anything past their grandparents? It’s like the “blame the parents for the kids” argument; or the “we decide who is Maori or not” bloodline/ratio approach. Colonial Viper is right, Labour need a better reflection of who it is they represent in their MPs.

    • Puckish Rogue 5.3

      But thats how he looks and how he appears, whats he supposed to do?

    • rhinocrates 5.4

      In saying “first moral duty”, Little acknowledges the harm his party has done to people who are “second” or even lower ranked. Nice to know. The bus has a dog whistle for a horn. Beneficiaries, LBGTQ, now people with Chinese-sounding surnames – all acceptable collateral damage… I wonder if they’ll realise that chucking people under the bus won’t put diesel in the tank?

      Metiria Turei gave a much more intelligent and considered response. It’s early on in this clip:

      http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/mnr/mnr-20150713-0711-labour_cops_flak_over_chinese_surname_property_claim-048.mp3

      Even making the generous assumption of good faith, Labour’s handling has been collosally (and predictably) stupid, handing ammunition to Smith and undermining its credibility on race. It’s a classic case of “Fire! Aim! Ready!” Even making the generous assumption that they didn’t anticipate this backlash, then whoever’s running their media strategy needs to put down their crayons for a while and let someone with at least the barest suggestion of competence take the role.

      Hmmm, does my roof need painting?

      • marty mars 5.4.1

        Exactly rhino

      • Huang Y.G. 5.4.2

        My extended family & I sincerely hope that Labour will put a hand out to pick us up, or to scrape us off the road, after Messrs Twyford & Little and the current issues leave town in the big red bus.

    • Colonial Viper 5.5

      Thanks MM.

      I’d guessed that Twyford’s tack was approved by Andrew Little and the Leader’s office.

      • weka 5.5.1

        There’s something quite particular having a leader who is promising then really disappointing by turns.

  4. Paul 6

    Three attempts at trolling by infused already on this thread.

  5. Jenny Kirk 7

    Perhaps its not surprising the Herald editorial this morning backs-up Labour’s call for proper data to be collected on just who is buying up big and speculatively in the Auckland housing market. After all, the Herald IS Auckland-based, and anecdotal “evidence” and people on the ground at Auckland auctions is what’s causing the concern, and it needs addressing. This is from today’s Herald :

    ” For many people, the leaked property sale figures reported in the Weekend Herald ……… They concluded some time ago that overseas Chinese buyers were behind the boom in the Auckland property market. ……”

    • Kevin 7.1

      Oh noes! Chinese at property auctions! Quick, where are the internment camps when we need them?! And what about Australians, Poms, Indians and the South Africans. Especially the South Africans. They’re sneaky bastards. You can only tell they’re South African when they open their mouths.

  6. dv 8

    Re the auck prices
    Interestingly at 4% commission and average $700k house the real estate firm will have collected about $112 million in fees!!!!

    The other observation was that many of the comments in NBR were positive re the release of the data.

  7. Puckish Rogue 9

    Geez I go away for a couple of days and everything goes ker-razy…so who decided that attacking Asians was the best way for Labour to get back into power?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/70170890/housing-data-strongly-suggests-chinese-foreign-investment–twyford

    At first i thought it was picture of T. Mallard

    • John Shears 9.1

      Well PR you must be very upset to realise that it is not TrevM
      perhaps you should go to Specsavers or even go back to where you have been and then we wouldn’t have to put up with your biased comments although, I must say that the SST actually beats you for bias in this instance.

      • Puckish Rogue 9.1.1

        At least with me (unlike the MSM) you know I’m not pretending about my political viewpoints

  8. adam 10

    This is an interesting attack add from the democrats. Commentary by TYT.

  9. Penny Bright 11

    Seen this?

    Today’s NZ Herald editorial – ( Monday 13 July 2015) Business Section:

    “Chinese role in the housing boom.

    For many people, the leaked property sale figures reported in the Weekend Herald will have contained just one element of surprise.

    They concluded some time ago that overseas Chinese buyers were behind the boom in the Auckland property market.

    Anecdotal accounts from auctions had led them to discount a survey of real estate agents in 2013 that attributed only 8 per cent of purchases to this group.

    Even so, many will have been astonished to learn that as many as 39.5 per cent of sales may be to buyers of Chinese descent.

    That figure, whatever the question-marks surrounding it, raises issues that need to be addressed.

    Deriding the finding as politically motivated and statistically unsound is easy, but essentially a red herring.

    Compiling an estimate of the ethnicity of purchasers from their surnames, as Labour’s housing spokesman, Phil Twyford, has done, is not ideal.

    But the basis, figures covering 3922 Auckland sales from one real estate firm from February to April this year, is reasonably comprehensive.

    And it is better than anything else available.

    Regrettably, there is an information vacuum because this country has no register of foreign buyers.

    But perhaps we should not be totally surprised if Chinese buyers are, indeed, having a big influence.

    The Beijing Government is allowing more of its citizens to buy overseas property, and interest rates in China are much lower than here.

    This has led to Auckland housing being marketed aggressively to Chinese investors.

    They have been alerted especially that this country has no land tax, stamp duty or other of the restrictions of the likes of Canada, Australia, Hong Kong and Singapore.

    So far, the Key Government has acted directly only to the extent of requiring overseas buyers to have an Inland Revenue number and a New Zealand bank account from October.

    Mr Twyford’s finding will ramp up the pressure to do more.

    To some, it will represent evidence that the extent of Chinese investment, and a readiness to pay over the odds, is, beside its ramifications for the economy, creating an untenable situation for local buyers, especially those seeking their first homes.

    There needs to be a high degree of caution, however.

    First, Mr Twyford’s finding has to be substantiated by statistics whose accuracy cannot be challenged.

    In that context, figures made available by the new government requirements for overseas buyers need to be made available to the public.

    Secondly, if these figures underline Mr Twyford’s conclusion, the response must be carefully calibrated.

    It would be easy to follow Australia’s lead and require overseas investors to build new houses.

    This makes some sense in increasing supply rather than adding to demand.

    It is a stern step, however. New Zealanders certainly take a dim view when they are denied the right to buy a house in an overseas country.

    Equally, some of the purchases by overseas Chinese buyers are for family members, perhaps students, living in this country for at least some of the time.

    Even when reliable data is available, therefore, a knee-jerk response must be out of the question.”

    Penny Bright

    • Weepus beard 11.1

      Equally, some of the purchases by overseas Chinese buyers are for family members, perhaps students, living in this country for at least some of the time.

      Well, they can just rent a flat, like all the other students in the whole flaming world!

    • Ovid 11.2

      Can you just link to articles in the future? Walls of text disrupt the flow of discussion and reposting articles without permission opens the site up to copyright claims.

  10. Chooky 12

    ‘Goldman Sachs could face lawsuit for helping hide Greek debt – report’

    http://rt.com/business/273208-greece-goldman-debt-lawsuit/

    “A former Goldman Sachs banker suggested Greece start legal action against his former employer over complex financial deals that helped the country hide its national debt in 2001 and continue borrowing despite its poor economy, the Independent reports.

    The banking giant made as much as $500 million from the transactions known as “swaps”, which translated Greek debts issued in dollars and yens into euros, the British daily says. The figure is, however, disputed by Goldman, which refuses to state an exact number. The deals were prepared by Antigone Loudiadis, who reportedly received $12 million a year for the job….

    • James 12.1

      Greece will have as much luck with that as their other brilliant idea of getting money of Germany because of the Nazis.

      This is the government that some on here were calling “heros” the other day… and what have they done … Gone against the wishes of their people in the referendum which gave the response that they were championing.

      Now because they have been shown to be untrustworthy the country is way worse off than it was just a few months ago.

    • Gosman 12.2

      Excellent. The Greek government will only require 79 Billion Euros rather than 80 Billion when they win.

  11. Enough 13

    Welcome to the National Government’s modus operandi – “While most other governments intend cutting emissions, New Zealand appears to be increasing emissions, and hiding this through creative accounting. It may not have to take any action at all to meet either its 2020 or 2030 targets.”
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/278582/nz%27s-climate-change-target-condemned

  12. Weepus beard 14

    Twyford said it was not credible that 9 per cent of the population “went on a house buying bender over a three month period”.

    -Twyford (again today on Morning Report)

    I couldn’t agree more!

    • Paul 14.1

      All those yelling “racist” at the top of their voices ( led by the ACT Party) have no valid explanation for the data.
      That’s because there isn’t one, except for the conclusions Rob Salmon came to.
      More interestingly, why why do some organisations seem so determined to shut this discussion?

      Let’s look at who is benefiting from the status quo.

      • Puckish Rogue 14.1.1

        Its racist because a group is being demonised on the basis that their names sound Asian

        Labour messed up (again) so now the best thing they could do is own up to it and apoligise

        • te reo putake 14.1.1.1

          No surprise that you don’t know what racism is, PR. While you might be desperately hoping people are demonised, it’s not actually happening because most people can see past your faux outrage and focus on the facts. It must really be hurting you that Labour have got this issue right and have gazumped National so effectively!

        • Paul 14.1.1.2

          You choose to make that interpretation of what has happened.
          Most people don’t.

          • Stephen 14.1.1.2.1

            Most people being Nats, Standardistas, and the twitteratti. Those being affected by the housing crises in Auckland are probably nodding their heads in agreement.
            Again ISTM that many on the left would rather be ideologically pure and in permanent opposition.

            • Paul 14.1.1.2.1.1

              There are many on this website (including me) who think this is a crisis caused by large numbers of non-doms buying up housing and property in the country.

              • Charles

                That’s not what Labour (Twyford and Little) said, though.

                • Paul

                  These are Twyford’s words.

                  ” We do need to have a mature public debate about Chinese foreign investment in New Zealand real estate. Especially when the Government has refused to set up a register of foreign ownership and make it public.
                  Australia, Singapore, Hong Kong and other nations have enacted restrictions on foreign buyers in recent years.
                  When the sales data also pointed to a big presence of offshore Chinese investors, Labour decided it was time to talk about this. However uncomfortable it may be, the sales data reinforces what so many Aucklanders have thought is going on.
                  It is simply not good enough to try to shut down an important public debate with allegations of racism.”

                  http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11479817

                  • You’re the one trying to shut it down – have you even put up an argument about why it is not racism – check out what Little said – “We understood the risks…” What risk did he understand?

                  • Charles

                    See that word 11 places in?

                    Here’s what we’re asked to believe:

                    One morning at breakfast…

                    Twyford: Hey Andy, I have this idea about the housing crisis.

                    Little: What is it?

                    Twyford: The Chinese are the problem.

                    Little: Sounds risky. Sounds kinda racist. Would Winston say something like that?

                    Twyford: Probably.

                    Little: Could be a bad idea then. What else could we talk about that focussed on grass roots social issues we have policy for? Something a bit less negatively framed?

                    Twyford: Anything really, we could talk a lot about the things we’re doing right, but it’s like no one is listening.

                    Little: What evidence is there no one is listening?

                    Twyford: Just a hunch.

                    Little: Do you have wider figures for foreign buyers?

                    Twyford: I say just concentrate on what we do know about the Chinese. We have an email.

                    Little: That’s true. And I know several people in Auckland.

                    Twyford: Should we ask around first?

                    Little: Nah it sounds fairly solid. I guess we know the risk then, run with it.

                    Later that afternoon….

                    Twyford: Shit, that escalated quickly.
                    Little: I know. Did someone actually throw a trident at you?
                    Twyford: Yep.
                    Little: Let’s run with justification of a specific segment of Chinese people and try to cover the shit trail. And whatever you do, don’t mention the risk!

                    nek minute…

                    Little: … and furthermore… we knew the risk… DOH!

                  • Huang Y.G.

                    As an overseas born mixed ethnicity/Eurasian person from South East Asia (I am neither from China, Taiwan, Hong Kong nor Korea) with a Chinese family name, I do not think Twyford has initiated a “mature debate”.

                    My family has been here for about forty years. There are now three generations of us in the extended family, in this country we regard as home. The perception of NZ being principled about egalitarianism, social justice, inclusion & non-discrimination attracted the older family members to this country.

                    All of us voted Labour. Some of us are Labour Party members (if the Labour membership list is being checked, please do not assume we have the same surname, let alone a Chinese sounding surname or a pinyin version as I have used here). Has Labour asked us how we feel or what we would have thought before launching off during the weekend on TV3? How do you think my family & I feel now? Does Labour reckon they have strengthened their support from my family since Saturday? How has Labour demonstrated their principles since then?

                    Whatever the polling outcome or policy proposals that will eventuate from hereon, I genuinely hope what has been triggered will be worthwhile for Labour and the country. And please, to the Labour Party, don’t forget those of us with Chinese sounding names as well as Chinese looking ones when we are seen in public. We would like to continue voting for the Labour Party.

                    May I suggest that the Labour Party – MPs, supporters & members – spare a thought about repairing relationships at some stage really soon after whatever outcome, which was planned or intended, has been achieved please?

      • adam 14.1.2

        Who is saying anything except Twyford is a small-minded git?

        Truly pitiful rhetoric calling everyone who hates Twyfords racism, an act supporter.

        Who said here, anything apart from Twyford being a twit. A ninny and a school boy chauvinist?

        Twyfords the great sectarian leader for bigots across NZ. Making a bid for the NZ first leadership is he?

        That aside, you can have a go at his lack of humanity and talk about the housing issue – it’s not an either/or issue. I don’t believe myself or anyone else for that matter, has argued any other way.

        Housing in Auckland is a problem, transnational investment is a problem, the quality of the housing is a problem, the Aussie banks are a problem, Over crowding is a problem, the government keeping the housing bubble going, because, if it doesn’t we are going to loss ten’s of thousands of jobs, is a problem. Twyford being a bigoted git, is a problem. Housing NZ, is a problem. No capital gain, death duty and a crushing g.s.t on the poor is a problem.

        So many parts to this problem, but all you good’ ol boys run off to save the twit Twyford.

        • Paul 14.1.2.1

          1.Do you think non-doms should be allowed to own housing in NZ?
          2. Do you think the data about the sale and purchase of housing should be open and transparent?

          • adam 14.1.2.1.1

            It would be a very weak minimum position, but yes we need both those points.

            I also think we need a Capital gains tax. A death Tax. More houses.

            A full investigation into the Aussie banks and their role in creating, and continuing the housing bubble here, and across the ditch.

            More housing density, coupled with good public transport options.

            No sale of the current social housing stock, with a massive improvement of the rights for tenants.

            I also think the market can not solve this issue.

            It needs a wholly new approach.

      • Draco T Bastard 14.1.3

        +1

        The people benefiting from the status quo are the rich – everyone else is being screwed.

        • Paul 14.1.3.1

          And that’s why our resident trolls and the ACT Party are so determined to frame this conversation as racist.
          They know that one of the quickest ways of shutting down debate is to accuse your opponent of being sexist or racist.

          • Puckish Rogue 14.1.3.1.1

            We learned that little trick from the left…also helps to accuse your opponesnts as being trolls as well

            • McFlock 14.1.3.1.1.1

              But, by and large, when either accusation is made about tories it’s generally supported by actual fact, and is a general conclusion on the merits of an argument or the trustworthiness of a commenter.

              When the accusation is made by tories, it’s generally (as you call it) a “little trick”, usually tenuous and made with the objective of derailing further analysis, however valid that analysis may be.

              But being a moral vacuum, you are incapable of understanding the difference between the two.

              • Puckish Rogue

                Sorry but by and large the left are as bad and in some cases even worse than the right its just that the right are better at it

                However I do see that the left now have a new weapon in their armoury with the new cyber bullying laws so we’ll see how that goes

                • McFlock

                  Yeah, reread my last sentence above.

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    Well you keep on believing what you want to believe

                    • McFlock

                      Well I sure as shit wouldn’t want your worldview, where politics is merely a vicious game played by sociopaths who care not a jot for the real pain in the world and where all appeals to decency and calling-out of injustice are mere cynical ploys to score points. Surely humanity is more than just a pack of rabid dogs feasting on their weak?

                      fuck, it’s a wonder you didn’t slit your wrists years ago.

                    • TheContrarian

                      Suicide isn’t funny. Just sayin….

                    • McFlock

                      not a joke.

                      To believe that the only difference between political perspectives is simply that one side is better at being cynically manipulative than the others would be a fair approximation of hell. No hope of change. Ever.

                      Fuck.

                      I need to go for a cup of coffee.

          • adam 14.1.3.1.2

            “And that’s why our resident trolls and the ACT Party are so determined to frame this conversation as racist.”

            “If your not for us your against us.”

            Paul using good old George Bush Jr. rhetoric, what a find. You are a charmer mate. Or just another middle of the road lefty, who is in reality, an Ike style Republican.

            If you can not divide up the debate – sorry for you. How about you read this, then we will talk as adults. The Autobiography of Malcolm X by Alex Haley.

            • Paul 14.1.3.1.2.1

              Simple question.
              Are you concerned about non-dom ownership of housing in NZ?
              I am and I don’t know why that concern should be twisted.

            • McFlock 14.1.3.1.2.2

              “If your not for us your against us.”

              erm… Paul didn’t actually use that rhetoric, did he?

              • Paul

                I am just trying to point out that a lot of the people jumping up and down yelling ‘racist’ are folk like pr, BM, clean power etc etc.
                Yes, there are left wing voices saying the same, but shouldn’t your bedfellows concern you Adam?
                It is foreign overseas wealth that is the issue, American, German, British and Chinese. And our pathetic rules that allow wealthy overseas investors trump the civil right of residents in this country to affordable housing.

                The reason why the rwnjs are yelling so loudly is that they support the unhindered access to ‘markets’ by the wealthy global elite. They support the looting of this country.
                Can’t you see that?

                The problem is that the Labour Party has been complicit in this since the 1980s and so, I, and many others are sceptical of whether they will really stand up for the rights of workers against foreign capital.

                • adam

                  No, what worries me is so called left wing people like you Paul who are defending racists. That’s what is worrying me. And not all right wing people are racists.

                  To your other points you have not read a damn thing I’ve said – so go back and try again.

                  Now your worried that labour having now raised China to the level of spectre, they will back down.

                  Sheesh, and you only way to keep pressure up is to go lalalalala Twyford is not a chauvinist small minded git. Great politics, up lifting and inclusive – no wait, if you did that sort of politics, it be left wing…

                  But maybe that’s what we’re doing wrong – we don’t go for uplifting and inclusive

    • BM 14.2

      According to this Asians make up 21% of the Auckland population

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Auckland

    • Roflcopter 15.1

      And Twyford is acting Ethnic Affairs spokesman while Goff is overseas… you can’t make this shit up.

    • Jenny Kirk 15.2

      To Clean-power – Devoy is muddled. She’s mixing local Chinese resident in NZ with the group that Phil Twyford is targetting – the non-resident Chinese who come in briefly for a few nights, go to the Auckland auctions, bag a few properties (using cheap finance), and fly off again.
      Two totally different groups – and the local Chinese should be just as concerned at what their country-people are doing – because they’re also pushing them out of the Auckland housing market.

      And to BM – Wikipedia is talking about the entire Asian population in Auckland – that would include Korean, Indian, and other nations as well as China. Twyford probably had his ethnic population figures from a more reliable source – NZ Stats Dept and the Auckland Council.

      [Removed duplicate comment, Jenny, and added your edit about the council. TRP]

      • Paul 15.2.1

        I imagine they both know what you have told them already.
        Remember there are here as shills for the government and its powerful lobbyists, not to engage in rational discussion.
        Trolls don’t debate.

    • JanM 15.3

      I’m getting thoroughly sick of all this – she’s just making cheap shots burbling on about how it’s not fair to ‘Chinese New Zealanders’; when anyone with an IQ of above 60 knows perfectly well that the discussion is not about them; it’s about people without residency buying large amounts of property and distorting the market. In. fact, I’m getting really angry that people like my daughter-in-law and her family are being used by people to make what appear on the surface to be supportive arguments, but are really just a cynical tilt at the Labour Party. My family deserve better than this

    • Clean_power 15.4

      C’mon Jenny. If Twyford sources are reliable, why doesn’t he disclose them and tell us who they are? The term “probably” is out of place here.

      • McFlock 15.4.1

        Hang on, are you demanding Twyford provide a reference for a stat reported by Weepus Beard as being what Twyford said on morning report, when even if it were an undercount then the figure of 21% still suggests either disproportionate purchases by a specific residential demographic, or non-resident purchases?

        That seems to be a somewhat pointless exercise.

        Which is probably why you’ve got your knickers in a twist about it.

        • McFlock 15.4.1.1

          shit that was to c_p. Must have missed the reply button

          • greywarshark 15.4.1.1.1

            Something funny about the reply sequencing McFlock? I don’t know why I’m above the comment and not below. See where this one lands.

            • McFlock 15.4.1.1.1.1

              ok, someone’s deleted their comment and blown the threading, maybe.

              [Might have been when I removed a duplicate comment halfway up. I’ll see if I can fix it. TRP]

              [Yeah, CP’s reply to Anne’s duplicate comment is now an orphan. Must have been posted as I was trashing the dupe. Sorry about that. TRP]

              • lprent

                I fixed some of the issues I was having with the duplicating RSS feeds. I just have to figure out a better solution to bloody google feeds duplicating (ie mostly blogger). Now I have to figure out a better fix.

                I’ll correct this comment issue. But generally the best immediate fix is to pull the comment from Trash

  13. Paul 16

    Hooton kept repeating the term ‘international activist groups’ as if people advocating for changes to climate change policy and Zero Hours contracts were part of some evil conspiracy.
    Sounded like the reds under the bed nonsense.
    And yet the host challenged one of these nonsensical ideas.
    RNZ going downhill.

    • Morrissey 16.1

      In fact, Paul, the host (Lynn Freeman) contradicted Hooton and exposed his crude methodology. It was Mike Williams, as useless as ever, who failed to challenge Hooton.

      I’ve done a transcript of the last four minutes of the programme—humiliating for Hooton—and I’ll put it up on Open Mike tomorrow morning.

  14. Huang Y.G. 17

    Hello JanM (on iPad & cannot reply under your comment).
    Thanks & sorry to hear that.
    This is why Phil Twyford had to be more careful & skilful in raising the issues & when discussing that ‘research’.
    On my part, how do people here think I feel when I will be at the next open home?

    • Weepus beard 17.1

      I don’t care how you feel at your next open home.

      • JanM 17.1.1

        Not nice, Weepus beard

        • Weepus beard 17.1.1.1

          C’mon.

          Huang Y.G’s plight at his next auction does not affect my family one bit. That’s the world that the Nazional party lead government and ACT type people have fostered upon us, is it not?

          One where it’s every man for himself. A dog-eat-dog world?

          I’ve never been to a house auction so he or she will get no sympathy from me, thanks very much.

          • Colonial Viper 17.1.1.1.1

            Thanks for confirming that you’ve taken aspects of the right wing ethos to heart.

            • McFlock 17.1.1.1.1.1

              And you really seem to be more accepting of identity politics these days…

              • Colonial Viper

                I really couldn’t give a stuff when the likes of Winston runs an anti-Asian campaign, but when a self styled broad church like Labour acts this politically inept and knowingly burns a couple of hundred thousand voters due to moves explained by an utter lack of Asians in its caucus and senior hierarchy, as well as a total lack of understanding the local Chinese community and its history, its time to escalate the push back.

                • McFlock

                  I agree entirely.

                  The Labour caucus should be demographically representative (or at the very least make specific and explicit efforts to address the concerns of less powerful groups iin society). Labour, and society as a whole, will be stronger for it.

            • Weepus beard 17.1.1.1.1.2

              I am a renter with a young family, shut out of ever owning a house in the place I was born in and grew up in because of cheap foreign money propping up the current government’s economic policy, as hinted at by Phil Twyford, in the absence of much asked for buyers’ data.

              You?

              • JanM

                Same situation as my younger son, then, but I’d be ashamed of him if he carried on like this

                • Weepus beard

                  Really?

                  You be ashamed of him for fighting for his family’s future against this volatile tide of cheap money which is distorting NZ’s delicate residential infrastructure?

                  • JanM

                    No for having a go at someone without establishing where they’re coming from – you made an assumption and just went for it!. Read his 12.45 post

              • Colonial Viper

                I am a renter with a young family, shut out of ever owning a house in the place I was born in and grew up in because of cheap foreign money propping up the current government’s economic policy, as hinted at by Phil Twyford, in the absence of much asked for buyers’ data.

                the Auckland property bubble has been blowing up big since 2001/2002, Helen Clark and Michael Cullen loved the wealth effect “propping up” their government’s finances too, foreign money has played a role in this, but there are a shit load of other factors as well, go blame Westpac, BNZ and ANZ for starters.

                • Weepus beard

                  #labourdidittoo

                  • Colonial Viper

                    A typical Auckland house went from $300,000 to $600,000 under Helen Clark’s watch. Lots of property owning middle class Aucklanders got suddenly rich – at least on paper. Buying houses for investments and capital gains became a Kiwi middle class past time. Lots of money from ever expanding mortgage debt was flooding the economy. Labour was fine with this. Cullen built his budget surpluses on it.

                    Now we find that the Auckland middle class are getting seriously priced out of the market by foreign money. All of a sudden, Labour wants to make a big media hoopla about how big a problem the Chinese are causing.

                    None of this is about helping the average Kiwi worker earning $50K pa get into an Auckland house.

                    • Weepus beard

                      I’m done conversing with you on this.

                      I say get the data, restrict foreigners from residential property, and slow immigration until Auckland infrastructure can catch up. That’s a socially responsible viewpoint.

                      You say don’t be so racist, supply is the problem, and Labour did it too. That’s a National party troll viewpoint.

                      I’m done.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I say get the data, restrict foreigners from residential property, and slow immigration until Auckland infrastructure can catch up. That’s a socially responsible viewpoint

                      That approach won’t sort out affordable housing in Auckland for 20 to 30 years, if even by then.

                      I’m more radical than you are on this topic by a million miles. You don’t even know it.

      • Colonial Viper 17.1.2

        LOL mate, even the conservatives are more compassionate than you.

  15. midday onenews – first item – labour getting smashed from all sides – thanks twyford and little you have really helped the gnats – wankers.

    • Skinny 18.1

      And the 3pm news headlines with a BNZ economist calling for a ban on foreign ownership of New Zealand property.

      Means to an end Marty. You really need to get that chip off your shoulders that you hold against Labour. Mana/one trick pony Hone sold out and it was their choice 🙂

      • marty mars 18.1.1

        you’re right about one thing (I know, surprised me too) it is a means to an end but the end will not be the end rather the end of the end and then we’ll see what happens…

      • Colonial Viper 18.1.2

        And the 3pm news headlines with a BNZ economist calling for a ban on foreign ownership of New Zealand property.

        As I mentioned in another comment, you must always analyse why a bank economist is saying what they are saying, on behalf of their employer. In this case, BNZ would love to have these rich Chinese and other foreign buyers banned out of the market, because they are wealthy buyers who bring their own cash to the table – they do not need mortgages from the BNZ.

        TL/DR: Every house bought using Chinese cash is a lost mortgage origination for the BNZ.

        • Weepus beard 18.1.2.1

          As I mentioned in another comment, you must always analyse why a bank economist is saying what they are saying, on behalf of their employer. In this case, BNZ would love to have these rich Chinese and other foreign buyers banned out of the market, because they are wealthy buyers who bring their own cash to the table – they do not need mortgages from the BNZ. Every house bought using Chinese cash is a lost mortgage origination for the BNZ.

          – Colonial Viper, 13/07/15

          Bookmarked.

        • Marcus 18.1.2.2

          I’m getting sick of this.

          Brave man, Twyford. Finally some facts emerging about this crazy house price bubble. Brave leaker from the Ak property company too, I bet there’s a witch hunt going on there right now too. Hope the leaker stays hid.

          Yes there is a witch hunt going on over this story and I hate the potential for victimising NZ Chinese citizens.

          But the facts that are emerging are real. If the stock market in China can lose trillions dropping back to earlier levels of just a few months ago meaning vast amounts of money was invested there, money that dwarfs NZs entire GDP, and the Chinese government is about to facilitate their citizens’ investment in foreign countries, and little old NZ still has no controls tax or other defences to restrict that, then we are fucked.

          Brave man Twyford, thank Christ some people actually care about whether my daughters will ever be able to afford to buy a house in a NZ city in the next few years. Or whether go down the biggest depression hole we have ever seen. NZ doesnt have trillions of dollars, we have fuck all.

          • Weepus beard 18.1.2.2.1

            Don’t worry. Nick Smith has got our backs. You can trust Nick Smith to deal with this can’t you? [/sarc]

          • Colonial Viper 18.1.2.2.2

            “Brave man Twyford”

            You’re shitting me. This housing bubble has been blowing up since 2001/2002, a $300K house in 2001 is now worth over a million dollars 13 years later and suddenly fucking Twyford and Little and Labour figure out that its been the goddam Chinese all this time?

            Talk about lazy rationalising of the Labour Government’s failures to control the money and debt flowing into the housing market and now the National Government’s failure to control money and debt flowing into the housing market.

            As for your daughters buying houses in Auckland in a few years time, what are they, in the market for $700K houses? Because nothing Labour does to halt foreign ownership of NZ land has a shit show of lowering house prices back to even that level, let alone back to an actually affordable sub-$400K level.

            • Marcus 18.1.2.2.2.1

              Other cities too. The housing bubble trajectory in Auckland isnt going to stop it’s just going to get worse and spread to other cities and the eventual crash which bubbles foretell will be devastating for NZ citizens who mortgage up to try to get what we always thought a kiwi dream.
              This speculative bubble is bigger than who is driving up the prices, it’s en route to tragedy unless our useless governments do something to control it.

              • Colonial Viper

                its the exact same story with our exchange rate.

                Every recent NZ govt has believed in the free flow of financial capital, no recent NZ government has believed in limiting capital flows.

                BTW provincial towns all across NZ (excluding the likes of Wanaka and Greytown) have flat to declining house prices (esp once inflation is taken into account).

                The answer is really quite simple. Give people a reason to move back to provincial NZ which is crying out for more population and more economic activity.

                And yeah, ban foreign ownership of NZ land. Not just houses, all land.

  16. Penny Bright 19

    How many people know that right NOW – at the Auckland Sky City Convention Centre, there is a great big fat ‘conference’ happening on combatting ‘money-laundering’?

    Timing?

    VENUE !?

    Who would have thought …… !

    “APG ANNUAL MEETING AND FORUM ON TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE AND TRAINING 2015

    1 August 2014

    The 2015 APG Annual Meeting and Technical Assistance and Training Forum will be held in Auckland, New Zealand in the week of 13-17 July 2015.

    The APG Annual Meeting is the primary policy and decision-making vehicle for the APG. Decisions made at the Annual Meeting will set the course for the APG’s work over the next year.”

    Wonder what their recommendations are going to be regarding the prevention of real estate / property market being used for ‘money-laundering’?

    Penny Bright

  17. greywarshark 20

    Railway thinkers. I’ve noticed that a book featuring the historic past to much of our infrastructure is on Trademe. Big Ideas: 100 Wonders of NZ Engineering by Matthew Wright published in 2009. Closes this Saturday buynow at $33

    There’s also Rails Across NZ, only $12 closes Tuesday morning so be quick,
    and NZ on the move: 100 Transport Icons, Buy now $15 closes Wed.

    Looking at the review of Big Ideas: 100 Wonders…in North and South October 2009,
    It has great photos on early power-generating and road and rail building projects and ‘for a tin-pot colony at the bottom of the world” says Wright, the eingineering and technology applied were remarkable.

    Photos: Laying underwater sections of the high-voltage direct-current cable in early 1960s.
    Early Hamilton marine=jet units under construction. A Kiwi invention, the jet boat was a water-borne application of the axial-flow, impeller principle adopted in WW2 for jet engines.
    Benmore hydro station 1958-1964. (I heard from people there that a Swiss company was called in eventually to assist.)
    The Denniston self-acting incline.
    John Britten’s V-twin motorcycle, built in 1992, wa the most stylish machine of its day – and the fastest.

    Now the fleas on the back of giants are sucking up all the benefit that is still present in these projects and selling off the family silver so they can proceed, like all decadent children, to gamble away the family’s wealth and estate.

  18. greywarshark 21

    Yeah you’re exercising in the wrong place Clean power. You should be at the gym building those abs and shoulders to do the physical heavy lifting. The exercise of brain requires a different sort of robust energy beyond your innate capacity. Stick to what you’re made for man.

  19. Morrissey 23

    Confederate flag supporters rise up to defend embattled symbol
    OCALA, FLA. | BY BARBARA LISTON
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/12/us-usa-confederate-ride-idUSKCN0PM11Q20150712

    An eight-mile convoy of pickups, motorcycles and cars wound through a central Florida town on Sunday in a show of support for the Confederate flag, as a backlash against its banishment from public landmarks across the South picks up steam.

    Horns blared and hundreds of the rebel flags fluttered as more than 1,500 vehicles and some 4,500 people turned out for the “Florida Southern Pride Ride” in Ocala, according to police estimates. Vehicles from states across the South and as far away as California participated.

    “That flag has a lot of different meanings to a lot of different people,” said David Stone, 38, who organized the event. “It doesn’t symbolize hate unless you think it’s hate – and that’s your problem, not mine.” ….

    Continued…..

    https://www.floridamemory.com/items/show/34009

  20. hoom 24

    I find it hard to believe but I agree with Prebble on something
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11480088
    I can’t even find any ‘hoik it off to the lowest bidder’ hook in there O.o

    • Skinny 24.1

      You would think money man Key would take a leaf out of American multi billionaire Warren Buffet’s book. There is money in freighting and like Prebble says the Rail corridors are already in place in most city’s in New Zealand.

      I have to agree the gridlock on Auckland’s Roading network is beyond a joke, as I ponder should I travel to Auckland early tomorrow morning for a meeting at 10.30 am
      or drive later this afternoon? Either way it means being stuck in traffic.

      • hoom 24.1.1

        ‘Dat moment the crazy right wing guy looks moderate compared to the present govt. O_O

  21. Ergo Robertina 25

    McDonald’s moving to cage free eggs in all stores within 18 months, by which time the company will account for 9% of the free range market.
    http://www.voxy.co.nz/lifestyle/mcdonalds-nz-commitments-100-free-range-eggs/5/226386

    “We purchase a substantial amount of eggs a year – nearly 13 million – so in order to keep up with demand, our egg suppliers will be investing significantly in new farms and farming systems. This is why the rollout will happen over 18 months – it needs to be sustainable for our suppliers,” says Mr Wilson.

  22. McFlock 26

    Number of beneficiaries going in debt to WINZ increasing.

    Another illustration why consumption inequality is an inadequate measure.

    • Paul 27.1

      Do you ever support the people or are you always shilling for the 1%?

      • Gosman 27.1.1

        Who are the 1% exactly? Are they the Taxpayers of Estonia, Latvia and Finland who will be the ones called upon to make sacrifices for the Greeks so they can continue spending far more than they earn? Have you ever wondered why the Finn’s, Latvian’s and Estonians’s (Not to mention the Dutch and Germans) on the whole are very resistant to both debt relief and giving Greece even more support? The Latvian’s and Estonian’s are not very wealthy. In fact an average pensioner in Latvia apparently earns less than their Greek counterpart.

        • The lost sheep 27.1.1.1

          Seems just about everyone has gone off the Greek issue Gosman?

          I thought they’d be lining up to concede that you have been pretty much on the money all the way through. sarc.

  23. Weepus beard 28

    We have seen a lot of it recently.

    The National lead government being put under pressure by the opposition parties’ policies and calls for action on issue that infect the working poor, so much so that the National lead government waits a few months only to release a watered-down version of the same opposition policy and trumpet it as new legislation.

    Sufficiently watered down, one might say, to try to please everybody. Mostly, however, it just pleases their business buddies while the worker, or the freezing tenant just has to suck it up in the name of flexibility of the labour market, or listen while being told to how to clean that black mould of your sick kids’ bedroom walls while on a budget.

    Let’s look at four instances of this:

    – The capital gains tax that is not a tax driven by David Parker.
    – The rental housing WOF, which now just asks for smoke alarms and ineffectual polystyrene floor insulation, driven by the Green party.
    – The data collection for house and land sales to foreign buyers that doesn’t collect any data, driven by Phil Twyford.
    – The dismantling of zero-hour contracts (thanks Helen Kelly), which ended up as an weak appeasement to shonky employers.

    This new and hurried legislation from the Nazional government only just tip-toes around the edges of something which will actually work for workers and their families, but none the less would not have happened at all if it were not for the brave people in opposition who come up with solutions for the increasingly disenfranchised every day.

    My question is:

    Are Labour and the Greens governing this country from the opposition benches?

  24. Ergo Robertina 30

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/70184652/doctors-helping-patients-die-as-assisted-death-debate-rolls-on
    ”More than one in ten doctors have helped a patient die despite potentially breaking the law, a survey suggests.
    In a fax poll of general practitioners, conducted by magazine New Zealand Doctor and IMS Health, nearly 12 per cent of respondents said they had helped a patient die. About two out of five doctors also said they had been asked to help a patient die, although most had refused.”

    This creates an unsafe level of pressure and stress for the doctors who are prepared to do this to help their patients. Apart from the risk to their career, there is no avenue for them to receive the counselling anyone would require (whether what they are doing is permitted or not) to cope with the emotional burden of assisting someone to end their life.

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