Open mike 13/10/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 13th, 2015 - 259 comments
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openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

259 comments on “Open mike 13/10/2015”

  1. Paul 1

    Officially we are now sold.

    ‘No ban for TPP nationals buying NZ houses’

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11527924

    • One Anonymous Bloke 1.1

      Key is spinning like a top. The official line is that we won’t get sued unless we elect a Labour government.

    • The lost sheep 1.2

      Mr Key said that if offshore buyers were found to be a major factor in rising house prices, his preferred deterrent would be a land tax, not a ban.
      Under the TPP, New Zealand would retain the ability to impose new taxes on foreigners.

      This kind of mechanism seems to have been quite effective in slowing down overseas buying in the Auckland market?
      So it’s not the case that we will have no ability to address this issue if we decide we need to?

      • Tricledrown 1.2.1

        Lost creep yeah John Key introducing a land tax!

      • Tricledrown 1.2.2

        Key govts outside health board consultants waste $300 million of DHB,s costing taxpayers $78 million on top of that for a few friends of the National Party to live it up while those that need the healthcare are denied.
        Paula Rebstock on $ 1500 a day for a partime job.
        While Cyfs carries on with the same failed formula of behaviour not unlike a very sick circus soap opera in which Children are worse off in their care.
        The govt need to ACT fast to fix these seriously damaging issues.
        This govt said it was a better manager.
        What utter BS.
        Doubling consultants pay seems to have had the opposite effect Key Joyce and Brownlie claimed .
        Nepotism is the reason.
        CERA Jenny Shiply on $450,000 per annum for a partime job. $385 million to fix dodgy repairs.
        Highly overpaid Con-sultants are costing the country taxpayers over $1billion a year.
        Where is the ACT party on this bloated bearaucracy .
        No where to be found.
        National and ACT are wolowing in piles of taxpayers money.
        This is the biggest Con since SCF.
        A Junket to end all junkets to fund friends of National and ACT.

        • greywarshark 1.2.2.1

          Where is the ACT party at all?
          Well this morning it was announced that David Seymour is doing a clean up job for boss Steven Joyce looking at all the old dusty legal Bills and Regs the government has been accumulating. (Getting ready to get our legislation conforming with requirements of TPPA bosses?)

          There were quotes of the amusing old legislation that doesn’t seem needed.
          But what ones are being prepared for abandonment that weren’t mentioned?
          Then there is the confusion that comes about with some being lost in the crowd that no-one had heard about, being ‘Disappeared’.
          http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/286823/goodbye,-y2k-information-disclosure-act

          Then there is the possibility of important basic legislation being lost, because it was passed while attached to some other Bill, as an extra. Often those end up being for the benefit of the incumbent Party or their friends. But they may have had unintended useful consequences and we need to watch out for stray sheep in that flock. There may be a Shrek in there.

          Then there is the possibility of regulations and enabling legislation that we actually need to do some things that are important to the people.

          I wouldn’t trust this lot to p.ss straight when they are sober. And I think that is a fair and considered summation of them.

          So watch out peeps, you have till some time in December to see what they are up to and try and rein in the brutes.

        • greywarshark 1.2.2.2

          Think I’m in spam again. Put a large comment through 10.18 where is it at 10.22? This is happening all the time. I haven’t changed anything that I know of. But I also haven’t updated to the latest Firefox No. Could that be it? And I don’t think my Comments list is updating regularly.

        • Smilin 1.2.2.3

          Yes that list is enough to overthrow this govt but summers coming so Key will be off to WAIKIKI, suntan drinking man finding himself a friend cause he aint got any here I know
          Be good to know how will be turning up to his parties over the summer break just to get an idea on the crap we will have to handle next year

    • McFlock 1.3

      lol
      so “technically” an enlightened government could ban all non-NZ-resident foreign ownership, they just might be taken through ISDS to provide compensation.

      For his next trick Key will say that there’s “technically” nothing stopping people dealing meth, although they might be taken through the criminal justice system.

  2. Morrissey 2

    New Zealand rugby writers are ramping up the distortions and outright lies;
    Don’t believe a word by the likes of Liam Napier, Andrew Saville or Phil Gifford.

    According to this absurd and insulting piece by one Liam Napier, the All Blacks are seeking “closure” and to “exterminate the ghosts of 2007”. To give him his due, Napier does acknowledge something that is strenuously avoided by most of his colleagues, i.e., that the superior Tricolors were beaten in the farcical 2011 final not by the All Blacks, but by the fact there was a non-referee in “charge”….

    Lessons of 1999, 2007 and the 2011 World Cup final at Eden Park, where the French still claim they were duded by referee Craig Joubert in the tense closing stages, will ensure the All Blacks don’t take them lightly.”

    Otherwise, it’s the same old same old from Napier, as it is from all the rest of his grim, marginally literate and joyless brotherhood. You can expect far more of this dismal, dishonest crap over the next week….

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/72910063/all-blacks-vs-france-rugby-world-cup-quarterfinal-at-cardiff-chance-for-closure

    Liam Napier is either too lazy or too dishonest to acknowledge it by anything other than his dismissive sneer in the piece I quoted, but some commentators were prepared to tell the unpalatable truth…..

    • ropata 2.1

      nitpicky. not huge infringements, the ref will always miss a few things.

      remember Wayne Barnes’ performance in 2007?
      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10469541

      • Morrissey 2.1.1

        nitpicky. not huge infringements, the ref will always miss a few things.

        The comments by Matt Williams and Neil Francis are thoughtful and fair; they are not “nitpicky”. They are only talking about the most flagrant violations, all of which were committed right in front of Craig Joubert, who was supposed to be the referee.

        remember Wayne Barnes’ performance in 2007?

        The link you provided is a lot more balanced and fair than almost anything else that appeared in the Herald about that match. However, it neglects to mention something vital: In all of the sound and fury following that match—nearly all of it coming from the rabid sports media, not from fans—the forward pass by Michalak leading to the Jauzion try was hammered ad nauseam, but the All Blacks’ forward pass that led to McAlister’s try was resolutely ignored.

        Barnes made two mistakes, which balanced out. Joubert, on the other hand, failed or refused to do his job. There is no credible comparison to be made between the two.

  3. savenz 3

    http://www.networkworld.com/article/2991534/security/tpp-will-outlaw-security-research-done-without-permission-lead-to-destroyed-devices.html

    The TPP could lead to seized and destroyed devices, outlaw security research done without permission, and pave the way to perpetual insecurity for the IoT ecosystem.

    • Chooky 3.1

      +100 SAVENZ….very disturbing!

      …will justify the persecution of investigative journalists like Hager

      ….and open the way for white collar crime and political corruption

      …and a police state

      Where is the Labour Party on this?!

  4. Penny Bright 4

    FYI.

    ‘Open Letter’ to Matthew Hooton from Penny Bright 2016 Auckland Mayoral candidate.

    12 October 2015

    Matthew Hooton,
    Managing Director
    Exceltium

    Dear Matthew,

    According to the ‘bio’ on the following website, you are, purportedly,

    “…New Zealand’s leading public affairs strategist and political commentator.

    He has over 20 years’ experience in political and corporate communications, working for the New Zealand Government and some of the country’s most influential companies.”

    BACKGROUND:

    http://www.exceltium.com/team/matthew

    Matthew Hooton MANAGING DIRECTOR

    Matthew Hooton is New Zealand’s leading public affairs strategist and political commentator. He has over 20 years’ experience in political and corporate communications, working for the New Zealand Government and some of the country’s most influential companies.

    He maintains excellent connections with senior levels of all of New Zealand’s main political parties, and with the senior staff of the National, Labour, Green, Maori and ACT parties.

    Matthew has a close relationship with many New Zealand Ministers and Members of Parliament, and is well known in political circles and by the public as a political commentator on both Radio New Zealand and RadioLive, and as a columnist for the National Business Review.

    He has led a wide range of government relations programmes, from those where government/industry partnerships were sought such as with ZESPRI International, through to seeking controversial legislative change, such as work with the Kyoto Forestry Association.

    A former press secretary to the New Zealand trade and agriculture minister, he played a lead role at the age of 28 in the government relations and communications programmes that led to the creation of Fonterra, New Zealand’s largest company. He has also worked internationally on projects in China, Europe, Mongolia and throughout Australia.

    __________________________________________

    You may recall that on 9 October 2015, the following article:

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2015/10/hooton_on_labour_and_tpp.html

    Hooton on Labour and TPP

    October 9th, 2015 at 3:00 pm by David Farrar

    ___________________________________________

    You may recall that I made the following two posts regarding this above-mentioned article:

    publicwatchdog (4,654 comments) says:
    October 9th, 2015 at 5:10 pm

    Mathew – would you care to provide evidence which confirms where Professor Jane Kelsey has ever said anything which is factually inaccurate about the TPPA?

    Thanks!

    Penny Bright

    _____________________________________________

    publicwatchdog (4,654 comments) says:
    October 9th, 2015 at 5:15 pm

    Mathew – what’s your view on Trade Minister Tim Groser holding a secret meeting with Mayor Len Brown on the TPPA on 7 April 2015?

    Does that comply with the principles of ‘open, transparent and democratically accountable’ local government – in your view?

    Kind regards

    Penny Bright

    ___________________________________________________

    Here was your response:

    Matthew Hooton’s Kiwiblog post October 9th, 2015 at 5:49 pm

    Dear Penny

    1. Would you like to provide any evidence that any of the statements in these unscholarly press statements is true:http://info.scoop.co.nz/Professor_Jane_Kelsey ?

    2. I don’t give a fuck who Tim Groser or Len Brown meet with. But it would make sense for the trade minister to brief the mayor of Auckland on his work from time to time.

    3. Pay your rates.

    4. Check yourself into a mental hospital.

    Best as always

    Matthew

    ______________________________________________

    This was my follow-up (albeit belated) response:

    publicwatchdog (4,654 comments) says:
    October 11th, 2015 at 10:55 am

    A belated reply to Matthew Hooton’s post October 9th, 2015 at 5:49 pm

    Gee Matthew!

    For a purportedly experienced ‘spin doctor’ / Media Commentator – that is a rather, (in my view), apoplectic and intemperate response, to my arguably straightforward questions?

    Sheesh!

    You were more pleasant when you were drinking!

    (If you’re stressed, for whatever reason, try Spirulina, those ‘B’ vitamins can really help).
    ___________________________________________________

    Dear Penny

    1. Would you like to provide any evidence that any of the statements in these unscholarly press statements is true:http://info.scoop.co.nz/Professor_Jane_Kelsey ?

    2. I don’t give a fuck who Tim Groser or Len Brown meet with. But it would make sense for the trade minister to brief the mayor of Auckland on his work from time to time.

    3. Pay your rates.

    4. Check yourself into a mental hospital.

    Best as always

    Matthew

    ______________________________________________

    With all due respect, Matthew, quite frankly, I for one, expect a much higher standard of response and behaviour, from someone in your position.

    Having checked with the Public Relations Institute of New Zealand (PRINZ), I find that the company for which you are Managing Director, Exeltium, is not listed as a member, so, as I understand it, their ‘Code of Conduct’, does not apply to you or your company.

    I understand that you and the company for which you are Managing Director, Exceltium, does political ‘lobbying’ work.

    Unfortunately, although New Zealand is ‘perceived’ to be the ‘second least corrupt country in the world’ (according to the 2014 Transparency International ‘Corruption Perception Index'( http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results ) New Zealand has neither a ‘Register’ nor ‘Code of Conduct’ for lobbyists.

    Where is the ‘accountability’ Matthew Hooton, or do you simply think that you can say what you like?

    What do I want?

    I want the public, elected representatives and media, to see for themselves what you have stated in the public domain, and ask the question as to whether you are ‘fit for duty’ to be a ‘ public affairs strategist and political commentator’ or a when you engage in what I consider to be such arguably, seriously unprofessional behaviour.

    Yours sincerely,

    Penny Bright
    ……….

    ‘Anti-Corruption / Anti-Privatisation campaigner / Public Watchdog’

    Attendee: 2009 Australian Public Service Anti-Corruption Conference
    Attendee: 2010 Transparency International Anti-Corruption Conference
    Attendee: 2013 Australian Public Service Anti-Corruption Conference
    Attendee: 2014 G20 Anti-Corruption Conference

    2013 Auckland Mayoral Candidate (polled 4th with 11,723 votes)

    2016 Auckland Mayoral candidate

  5. The Chairman 5

    Andrew Little now says it is unlikely Labour would withdraw from the controversial TPPA if it gained power at the next election.

    Any party has the ability on six months’ notice to walk away from the agreement.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/72953458/labour-unlikely-to-withdraw-from-tppa-trade-deal-if-in-govt–andrew-little

    Thoughts?

    • Chooky 5.1

      will be voting NZF

      • The Chairman 5.1.1

        I’d say a number of people will be walking away from Labour after hearing this.

      • weka 5.1.2

        “will be voting NZF”

        Useful to know you don’t want a left wing government.

        • Colonial Viper 5.1.2.1

          Because a Labour Party which keeps the TPPA is “left wing.”

          Face it weka, on economic and trade issues Labour is far to the right of NZ First.

          • weka 5.1.2.1.1

            “Because a Labour Party which keeps the TPPA is “left wing.””

            Of course not.

            MMP, CV. It’s not about individual party positions alone, it’s about potential governments. Do you think that a Labour/NZF coalition will be more left or less left than a Labour/GP one? Or do you think that there is a such a thing as NZF/GP coalition?

            Peters will knobble any deal between Labour and the GP it can. They’re also quite capable of forming government with National. You can call them left wing if you like, but they public position themselves as centrist.

            Under what circumstances would NZF help shift NZ back to the left again?

            Do you think that either NZF or the GP has the ability to get Labour to withdraw from the TPP if either of them were in a coalition with Labour?

            • Karen 5.1.2.1.1.1

              On the Green position I don’t think it is as clear cut as some here believe. When interviewed by Jessica Williams a week or so ago James Shaw said that it may be better to “fix” the TPP than exit it (interview doesn’t seemed to be archived).
              A few people commented on twitter in response that “fixing” a treaty may not be that feasible.

              • Das

                The TPPA shit is baked in and if Shaw thinks he can be Mr Fix It, he can go ahead and delude himself and some of the Greens/Progressive. But I will make my darndest in my own community to ensure that none shall be so daft as to swallow that.

              • The Chairman

                Seems Shaw is playing Little’s game.

                Opposing it, but not really prepared to walk away, opting to tweak it if possible.

                Can anybody confirm where NZ First stand?

                • weka

                  Are you suggesting that the GP should walk away from a coaltion deal with Labour on this one issue?

                  “Seems Shaw is playing Little’s game.”

                  I’d like to see some evidence of that.

                  • The Chairman

                    Yes, it’s a rather large issue that impacts on our right to govern, therefore, of course they should walk away.

                    Can you imagine how ineffective the Greens will become trying to infringe on the profits of polluters under the TPP?

                    As for evidence, keep in mind the context of discussion, hence look at the post I was replying too.

                    • weka

                      Ok, so presumably NZF should walk away too?

                      “As for evidence, keep in mind the context of discussion, hence look at the post I was replying too.”

                      I prefer to base my opinions on evidence not hearsay (all due respect to Karen, who just expressed an opinion that also needs backing up to be taken more seriously).

                  • The Chairman

                    Re: NZF, one would expect them too. If not, one would expect them to put it to the vote.

                    As for my opinion, you will see I left scope for Karen being mistaken or incorrect. Therefore, your point escapes me.

            • Colonial Viper 5.1.2.1.1.2

              Speaking of MMP, I think it very likely that LAB + GR in 2017 will come in between 38% and 44%.

              That’s not a government. NZF will have to be in the mix, somewhere.

        • Shane Le Brun 5.1.2.2

          After being a Nats voter, switching to IMP solely for me support of Medical Mary Jane (well that was a wasted vote), and now having met Kevin Hague my personal views are best matched by the greens.

        • The Chairman 5.1.2.3

          NZ First is the only party offering a form of Direct Democracy. Allowing voters more direct say in the larger political issues.

          • weka 5.1.2.3.1

            How so?

            • The Chairman 5.1.2.3.1.1

              From the party manifesto:

              The move to MMP was not the end of political reform – it was the start.

              New Zealand First aims to make Parliament itself a more responsive and accountable institution, and to give greater power to the community.

              New Zealand First wants to form a practical partnership with the New Zealand people by the judicious use of direct public referenda where there is neutrality and impartiality in the question; there is fair dissemination of all of the facts on both sides of the argument; there is certainty in the poll (i.e. the question can be clearly understood); there is appropriate time for debate to be conducted; and the referendum’s objective is capable of being met within the country’s fiscal constraints.

              http://nzfirst.org.nz/sites/nzfirst/files/manifesto_2014_final_version.pdf

              It would give voters a direct say on large issues like the TPP.

              • weka

                Right, so NZF will allow some form of direct democracy once it’s the government. In the meantime, Peters has consistently undermined democracy in NZ by refusing to say before elections who he will form coalition with. I also count his macho politics as counter to democracy as well as his setting the bad tone for MMP with his early bullshit in coalition deals. He’s all about the power and he’s not about transparent democracy despite his rhetoric.

                To that end, I’ll note two things about your quote. One is the use of the word ‘judicious’ (and the subsequent conditions), which gives Peters plenty of wriggle room. The other is the lack of clarity about whether NZF means to include Citizens Initiated Referenda, and whether they would be binding.

                (and as per OAB’s points, there are better ways to encourage democracy than majority rule, although I can understand why Peters wants that, being the centrist he is).

                I don’t know much about NZF’s internal structures, but afaik the GP, Mana and the IP are all ahead of NZF in terms of membership input into and control over policy.

                Have a read of the GP policy on involvement of the people,

                I’ll pull out a few bits,

                The electoral system should encourage close links and accountability between individual MPs and their constituents or constituencies.

                Freedom of information and openness of government and its procedures are essential elements of a democracy.

                Active democratic processes require more than periodic elections and stronger mechanisms are needed for the ongoing engagement of informed citizens in the development and enactment of key national and local policies.

                The principle of subsidiary will guide the devolution of decision-making so that it takes place as close as possible to the communities more affected by the decisions.

                https://home.greens.org.nz/policy/open-government-and-democracy-policy

                • The Chairman

                  Political power gives one the ability to get their policies through, thus Peters seeks it.

                  Peters prefers to let voters decide before he will consider coalition partners. Voters are generally aware of this. Going either way gives him, thus the party and its supporters more possibility of getting their policy through. Whether that is undermining the process or merely utilizing it is subjective I guess.

                  I agree conditions could be improved, but giving voters more direct say is a step in the right direction

                  Binding referenda will be triggered by petitions achieving support of 10% of the electorate.

                  You seem to be overlooking a major fact, democracy rules is the essence of democracy.

                  • weka

                    “Peters prefers to let voters decide before he will consider coalition partners.”

                    Ae, that’s the difference. In the GP, it’s the members that decide, well before the election. And the voters know that the GP’s intentions are.

                    “Voters are generally aware of this.”

                    Really? because the number of lefties on ts who believe that Peters won’t go with National and that he is reliable on this is asoutnding.

                    “Going either way gives him, thus the party and its supporters more possibility of getting their policy through.”

                    Yes. NZF is not a left wing party, it’s centrist. I don’t have a problem with NZF doing this, I just think we should be more honest about what it means.

                    Also, NZF may function according to its values once Peters is gone. He is a power monger and it’s pretty hard to further democracy when that is the case.

                    “You seem to be overlooking a major fact, majority rules is the essence of democracy.”

                    Only in its most inhibited form. As we can see from the current govt, majority rules democracy can be manipulated to reduce democracy even further. Many of us here see representative democracy as more fair and more efficient. Democracy is about the people ruling the people, not the people half heartedly putting one lot of power mongers in and then another every three years to do what they like.

                    • The Chairman

                      “Ae, that’s the difference. In the GP, it’s the members that decide, well before the election. And the voters know that the GP’s intentions are. “

                      Did party members approve of their flag debacle?

                      Who are the Greens prepared to work with? NZF?

                      “Really? because the number of lefties on ts who believe that Peters won’t go with National and that he is reliable on this is astounding.”

                      That’s more a case of wishful thinking.

                      People should know, it has been Peters position for years, and he’s publicly stated it numerous times.

                      NZF may be centrist, but in a number of areas its position is left of Labour.

                      As I said above, political power is necessary to get policy through. Given the power, Peters plans to further democracy by introducing a more direct form.

                      Representative democracy is far from more fair and more efficient because it fails to take into account the majority on major issues, it’s a vote given every 3 years. That’s not fair.

                      Therefore, policies are more short-term and can change direction with a change of government, undoing what has been done. Which is far from efficient.

                      Democracy is about people having a say on the issues that concern them. Representative democracy is about voting in others to have your say. Therefore, a number of people are left selecting the best of the worst to represent them.

                      It’s like being forced to buy the album when you only like a few songs.

                      Direct democracy requires safeguards to protect the minority, such as the Treaty, a Constitution, Bill of Rights etc…

                    • weka

                      “Did party members approve of their flag debacle?”

                      That’s a daft question and shows that you have no idea how political parties function. Also, I was talking about formation of government which is a completely different thing than day to day policy and actions.

                      “Who are the Greens prepared to work with? NZF?”

                      The Greens will work with anyone on share common ground. Including NZF. It’s NZF that has a problem with working with others (or probably it’s Peters that has that problem).

                      Sorry, I meant to say participatory democracy. Majority rules democracy eventually becomes a form of bullying and coercion. It’s not particularly representative. For instance, I’d like to see government work with a wide range of political view. NZF seems against that (Peters wants to sideline the GP for instance, and MANA too I think). We need more participation and better representation.

                      I’m in two minds about binding CIFs. If they were done alongside other initiatives, maybe, but I think we need to up our game with civics in general in NZ, starting with teaching it properly in schools and reforming local body elections so that people get involved. We have to learn how to do democracy, not just learn about individual issues to tick a box next to. Policy shouldn’t be a popularity contest (the flag is showing us all the pitfalls of that).

                • The Chairman

                  Sorry, that should have read: majority rules is the essence of democracy.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 5.1.2.3.2

            Direct democracy, as beloved by demagogues the world over.

            Is there something wrong with the select committee process? Then fix the select committee process – for example by introducing stricter rules of evidence and better understanding of how party lines create conflicts of interest.

            • The Chairman 5.1.2.3.2.1

              I prefer democracy, let the people have their say.

            • Draco T Bastard 5.1.2.3.2.2

              Is there something wrong with the select committee process?

              Well, the big one would be that the select committee can ignore the submissions made and thus support a law that the majority of people don’t want.

              Of course, it’s then up to parliament to legislate that law but they too need to be accountable to the people. They should not have the power to go against the wishes of the people.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Thank you for helping to illustrate my point about how select committees can be improved.

                Did you read the Chairman’s list of qualifiers? Fair dissemination of facts eh Draco? Snort!

              • The Chairman

                “Well, the big one would be that the select committee can ignore the submissions made and thus support a law that the majority of people don’t want.”

                Indeed. Moreover, how many, opposed to voters, actually bother to make a submission?

                Thus, when it comes to the two, there is no comparison, direct democracy wins hands down.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  Bollocks.

                  Interested parties make submissions – some from duty, others from self interest – all arguments can be heard – and yes, the National Party does it’s best to break it (like they won’t do that with demagoguery 😆 ) .

                  In any event, your list of qualifiers betrays the truth.

                  • The Chairman

                    Yes, interested parties make submissions. But the point is, their input can be disregarded and their numbers are small in comparison to the amount of people that vote.

                    Hence, when it comes to the two there is no comparison nor is it (the select committee process) a substitution.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      You have that arse about face: demagoguery isn’t a substitute for democracy: it’s a death knell.

                      Your list of qualifiers betrays the truth. Did you fail to understand why?

                  • The Chairman

                    Rubbish.

                    Submissions can be disregarded.

                    The number who submit are small in comparison.

                    Emotions and prejudices can be invoked under any democratic system.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Rubbish: your list of qualifiers betrays the truth and ignoring that won’t make it go away.

                  • The Chairman

                    So you keep on saying, yet you have failed to show this.

      • The Chairman 5.2.1

        Your links expose Labours tactic.

        Labour make a big song and dance opposing a certain issue, but when it comes to the crunch, they turn around and support it.

        Little was missed in his break. Clearly people were looking to the leader of the opposition for an alternative solution. However, upon his return he huffed and puffed, but in the end is beginning to show his true colours.

        It’s time the left sent Labour a message. If Labour want to support the TPP they can do it without the help of the left.

        I urge the left to withdraw from Labour.

        If Labour come in at under 10% at the next election, then perhaps they may start to actually listen to their core supporters.

    • weka 5.3

      “Thoughts?”

      Glad Labour has finally figured out what its message is. This message is about the TPP, but also about where Labour is positioning itself for the next election. Not a lot of hope there for lefties, so my suggestion is to look to the GP in terms of voting and look outside of parliament in terms of change beyond that.

      • Draco T Bastard 5.3.1

        +1

      • The Chairman 5.3.2

        That’s correct, there isn’t much hope for left voters supporting Labour.

        Which begs the question, when are the unions going to walk away from Labour?

        Surely the unions can’t continue to support the party after hearing this?

        It’s time the left sent Labour a clear and loud message.

        I’ll be calling my local Labour MP and expressing my disappointment. I suggest others do the same.

      • Tracey 5.3.3

        little agrees and disagrees with tpp. situation normal.

    • Draco T Bastard 5.4

      And this is why Labour keeps losing voters. Just have to have the Greens pick them up.

      • Tricledrown 5.4.1

        Andrew little and labour are saying they are going to legislate against some of the provisions of TPPA.

        • Draco T Bastard 5.4.1.1

          So?

          The majority of people don’t even want us in the TPPA.

        • The Chairman 5.4.1.2

          Indeed. To save face on their bottom lines, Labour are considering legislating against the ordinances of the TPP.

          However, they seem to have forgotten the dispute process itself also goes against one of their five bottom lines. And going off their comments, it’s clear they don’t plan to legislate against that.

          Therefore, despite their concerns and so called bottom lines, it seems Labour no longer value our sovereign right to govern. Shame on them.

          Additionally, the cat was let out of the bag when Robertson said the Party would weigh up the consequences, implying if the consequences are to severe, Labour will back down.

          So brace yourself for that excuse coming into play later on down the track.

      • weka 5.4.2

        “And this is why Labour keeps losing voters. Just have to have the Greens pick them up.”

        Ae, and get the message out there that voting NZF is not a vote for a left wing shift or government.

        The Greens can’t hold the left on their own. What’s required now is either a big increase in support for them via membership and/or voting, and an extra-parliamentary movement.

      • The Chairman 5.4.3

        Will the Greens walk away from the TPP if given the chance?

        • weka 5.4.3.1

          What do you mean? Do you mean that if they were the government? Or do you mean it would be a bottom line, non-negotiable in coalition talks with Labour?

          • The Chairman 5.4.3.1.1

            Both.

            Can you inform us of the Green’s position in this regard?

            • You_Fool 5.4.3.1.1.1

              In the case of coalition talks it is up to the party membership, in the case of if they form the government? I guess the same, but the greens live in the real world and assume the need to work with another party

              • The Chairman

                Well members should ponder this:

                Can you imagine how ineffective the Greens will become trying to infringe upon the profits of polluters under the TPP?

    • Bill 5.5

      Is the next election is more than 6 months beyond any date of ratification? If so, the neither Labour nor any other party can walk away unless they have gumption. Thinking…essential;ly reformist social democratic party and gumption. Nope. Not seeing it.

      But that aside, this is truly fucking woeful.

      However, Labour was still committed to the policies (restriction on house sales and favouring NZ business for government procurement) and was prepared to enact them if in Government and face a test in the courts if necessary.

      “If one of the other party countries think we’ve flouted [the deal], there’s a process that they have to go through, and I think we’re going to test the boundaries of that..

      Has no-one bothered to tell him (or has he been to lazy to find out) that three employees of corporate law firms sit behind closed doors and come to binding decisions on any dispute; that they need pay no heed to precedents, national laws, international laws, parliamentary legislation…Nothing. And has no-one told him they do not have to publish their deliberations?

      Meanwhile, he wants to test the boundaries!? – fuck-

      • weka 5.5.1

        Is it 6 months from ratification, or that NZ can walk away with 6 months notice at any time?

        “test the boundaries”. It’s a typical bit of messaging from Labour. Either they’re aware of the disputes process and think that it won’t hold up, or as mentioned below, they believe they can ignore it if it finds against NZ, in which case they believe they will do their hardest to find ways around the agreement.

        Or they already know that most things will be binding enough to not be worth the fight, in which case this is just the same old prevarication from Labour and when the crunch comes it’ll be ‘we’d like to do the right thing but our hands are tied’.

        tbh, I wonder if it’s a combination of the two. That they’re so used to spinning and following the weather vane that they truly believe the intention of the first bit because they can always rely on the second.

        • Bill 5.5.1.1

          The vid that DtB posted the other day should be watched. I’ve tried to do a break-down of it for a post, but…well, last night’s cynicism was the result of that endeavour. I’ll still take isolated points from it at some point. Meanwhile, if you missed it and have the bandwidth and time…

          Open mike 12/10/2015

          • weka 5.5.1.1.1

            yeah, sorry, probably not going to watch something that long and depressing.

            Are you saying that the TPP and TTIP use exactly the same disputes resolution process, or that the process the TTIP will use gives us an indication of how the TPP will go?

            • Bill 5.5.1.1.1.1

              All these deals use the same mechanism. I wouldn’t call it a process. Imagine three thugs have you cornered against a wall. Happily, you got to choose one of them, but they’re all from the same gang.

              They are about to ‘go through a process’. This arbitration – kangaroos would be proud and Stalin would be blushing.

              He, David Malone, fair demolishes all the myths around these ‘agreements’.

              eg – There is no investment lost by not being a party to any bi-lateral investment clause according to separate studies by the World Bank, Yale and Tufts. The bi-lateral investment clauses open the door to the Investor State Dispute Settlements (ISDS).

              Astonishingly, all the economic gains (underwhelming as they are) only result from running the data through a particular ‘general equilibrium model’ that’s been thoroughly discredited because of inbuilt and obviously bullshit assumptions. When the numbers are thrown through a more robust and credible UN model, everything comes out as a negative for everyone (except for the USA).

              – labour share of gdp down
              – government tax take down
              – wages down
              – rates of employment down
              – net exports down
              – increased financial instability

              I’d love to know what model was used for the TPPA, but I think I already know the answer given that the ‘benefits’ are very, very similar to those envisaged for the TTIP.

            • Draco T Bastard 5.5.1.1.1.2

              According to that video they just take the agreement as written and copy/paste into new agreements, ergo, all ISDS clauses are exactly the same.

          • weka 5.5.1.1.2

            And to pick up the convo from last night, I suppose I see it’s easier to get better democracy from having a state and government, than to write off the state and government and try for something else. Particularly in NZ, where we are so far from a revolution (as compared to many other places in the world). I hold that view not because I think this parliament is likely to make steps in the right direction necessarily, but because having some kind of state gives us a kind of reprieve to do the other work.

            For instance if the GP got to 20% of the vote and Labour were forced to form a coalition with them, we’d get a term or three of being able to shift the centre left again (in the culture, not necessarily in parliament). On the other hand I can see the argument that such a government migh just breed more complacency and lead to people not doing the urgent work required..

            I appreciate the degree of cynicism though, esp if you are doing the hard yards of watching 90s mins of in your face reality (somewhere I’m not prepared to go). Keeping the conversation going about what else we could do seems vital.

      • Tony Veitch 5.5.2

        Well, I am depressed! Has Labour learnt nothing from the examples of Jeremy Corbyn and Bernie Sanders? I will never vote Labour again, and I’ll be letting the local branches know very strongly! F***, F***, F***!

    • Tracey 5.6

      yes he came out strongly for and against. bottom will get sore from the picket

      meanwhike jane kelsey had a win in court.

      • b waghorn 5.6.1

        I find Littles stance very clear and easy to understand which is there is enough good in it trade wise to keep but he will flout the rules if necessary for the good of the country.
        As someone who’s income over my entire working life to date has come from nzs primary product trade anything that opens up markets is good.
        Edit I just noticed bearded git has said it better below.

        • Tracey 5.6.1.1

          so you think the other parties will let labour pick and choose the parts of the tpp it wants? take the good and rejdct the bad?

          • b waghorn 5.6.1.1.1

            It lines them up nicely with nzf buy leaving room to ban foreign ownership.
            If labour gets to 40% ,which is were they need to be to change the government, the other parties will have tow the line .
            And I think nz would be safe from prosecution from real estate investors as they are by nature opportunists and won’t waste money in legal battles they’ll just move on.

    • nigel gregory 5.7

      Very disappointed with the labour party if this is the case. Will rethink my voting certainly.

  6. Bearded Git 6

    Just 18 rugby related stories in the Herald today.

  7. Bearded Git 7

    @puckish above
    I think Little can see that there are some gains and Labour will be portrayed as negative if it doesn’t back the deal. Seems a reasonable position.

    However, he has made it plain throughout that Labour would ignore the agreement in terms of its policy on foreign purchases of residences and any other matter the party felt was not in the interests of New Zealanders, and that this would be fought through the courts. Key has admitted today, among a lot of blather, that Labour would be able to implement its ban on non-residents buying residences.

    The interesting question is would Labour take any notice of the kangaroo ISD court?

  8. r0b 8

    Lots of regular contributors are having their comments go to moderation today, not sure why. I will try and keep an eye out, but I am off line for the next 30 min.

    • Colonial Viper 8.1

      Thanks for doing all of this, r0b.

    • lprent 8.2

      Has someone added something to the auto-moderation queue. That is the most common reason.

      Umm I will have a look at it.

      • lprent 8.2.1

        Umm. Nope the auto-moderation looks clean.
        Nothing looks like it has been switched on.
        Clearing the auto-moderation.
        Leave the comments in moderation so I can see if that makes a difference.

        • r0b 8.2.1.1

          There is one from CV in moderation (I released it briefly, sent it back again on seeing your comment here)

          • lprent 8.2.1.1.1

            I have the comments on auto-refresh now every minute.

            • r0b 8.2.1.1.1.1

              Thanks – interesting…

            • lprent 8.2.1.1.1.2

              Odd. I copied the automod out and in again. Cured? More likely a glich on the server processes?

              • mine have been too – I’ll test it now

                • lprent

                  Interesting. It seems to be you and CV.

                  I won’t be able to see what is happening until I get to where I can see the logs.

                  • Bill

                    Me ‘n Tracy and a few others were also getting snagged. If I was signed in I was okay. Anyway. Submitting this from ‘signed out’ to see if it goes through. I’ll let you know in the up-coming edit.

                    edit. okay. The comment didn’t come up. I went back end and both this and a comment from Tracey were pending. I went to release them, but either they released automatically as I went to do that or someone else released them at that moment.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      OK just signed in and commenting on this now to see if it goes straight through. If it works I’ll try and stay signed in to minimise workload on the mods.

                    • lprent

                      Tis odd. I can’t see anything that could be causing it. I figure it has to be one of

                      1. the mechanism for dealing with first time comments has an issue or
                      2. the mechanism that lets us get away without a captcha has one or
                      3. the client side mechanism that fills in the commenter details using javascript.

                      I’m going to force everyone to reload cached items from the CDN to see if it is the latter.

                      What I’m wondering is what browser people having problems are on. For that I’ll need database access which is impossible today at work.

                    • Bill

                      IN the time it took me to type that edit, two comments from tracey, one from CV and one from martymars popped up as pending. And refresh rates all over the back end dropped like a stone.

                      It’s taken me this long – since time of comment above (minus say one minute for typing) to get back here.

                    • lprent []

                      That was me changing the media tag for material from the CDN (content distribution network) that provides the images, css, and javascript to clients. A frequent (ie every few months) issue is that a bad copy of javascript gets out for a browser, and causes client generated issues like this auto-moderation. So I clear everyones caches if I can’t see an obvious cause.

                      I also clearing all cached pages and database queries to ensure that no-one was picking up missing items.

                      It takes about 30 minutes before the site gets back to normal speed, and it is really slow in the first 5-10 minutes afterwards.

                    • weka

                      I haven’t been going into moderation, but ts pages (including comments and edits) have been very slow to load for the past hour or two.

  9. greywarshark 9

    I was thinking about Australia saying some time ago that it was going to be the Sherrif of the Pacific, acting for the USA. (Who voted for that? ) Is Israel the Sheriff of the Middle East then? Will Australia take control, attack and corral us like Israel has to Palestine?

    Is this lack of respect and lack of neighbourly good relations between us and Oz a sign of their possible path when we make a nuisance of ourselves wanting to continue sovereignty and fair and legal trading relations, and all things that a principled state expects from another principled state?

    Remember they fought us on the apple front, accusing us of illegal cheating behaviour of planting it himself, from our scientist when he found the dreaded contoneaster (which carries the dreaded fireblight) in a park in Oz. What other goodwill (not!) happenings have cropped up between us, when we have had blame or disadvantage at their hands. All interested NZs will know of at least one.

    • Colonial Viper 9.1

      I was thinking about Australia saying some time ago that it was going to be the Sherrif of the Pacific, acting for the USA. (Who voted for that? ) Is Israel the Sheriff of the Middle East then? Will Australia take control, attack and corral us like Israel has to Palestine?

      Australia has plenty of local and near-regional problems developing. I doubt they will have the attention span and wherewithal to go policing the Pacific.

      • greywarshark 9.1.1

        Ah CV. but do they know that?

        • Colonial Viper 9.1.1.1

          Well if the Aussies were to follow in true US style, the more things like the economy, infrastructure and social cohesion fall apart on the homefront, the more they will want to do adventuring on foreign shores.

          • Gangnam Style 9.1.1.1.1

            In the ODT this morning there was a letter pointing out the fact that Australians living here for one year could vote to decide NZs flag. Seems odd.

            • Colonial Viper 9.1.1.1.1.1

              Australian citizens who have lived in NZ for 4 years can vote in NZ General Elections.

  10. greywarshark 10

    Thanks r0b for your work and overview.

  11. Tory 11

    “I’ll huff and I’ll puff and……., oh fuck it, I am just taking the piss. Of course we will support the TPP cause after all, Labour is all for free trade”

    ‘Labour leader Andrew Little says it is unlikely the party would withdraw from the controversial Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPPA) free trade deal if it gains power, following a meeting with Trade Minister Tim Groser to discuss the agreement.’

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/72953458/labour-unlikely-to-withdraw-from-tppa-trade-deal-if-in-govt–andrew-little

    Do you feel betrayed that once again Labour is seen to be weak or as usual, you support a party of no ideas, ideals or policy?

    And cue the apologists for the left………

    • Colonial Viper 11.1

      Labour and National hold to the same economic and financial frameworks and ideas so its no surprise that they usually agree on everything apart from a few operational details.

      • Das 11.1.1

        What we have for a while now in the country is a grand political coalition in terms of economic and financial policies – with regard to Labour, what did post-Rogernomics Clark and Cullen truly do that brought about real change?

      • Draco T Bastard 11.1.2

        +1

        And it’s the economics that really do count.

    • Draco T Bastard 11.2

      I don’t support right-wing parties and thus I don’t support Labour.

  12. NZSage 12

    The Avaaz petition is gaining ground.

    https://secure.avaaz.org/en/tpp_2015_loc_nz/?tIkRubb

    Over half a million signatures to date.

    EDIT: Quote from Avaaz website: “…but New Zealand’s parliament can stop it.”

    Really?

  13. Tiger Mountain 13

    Goff, King, Nash, Shearer, Robertson, Little meet Groser–Labour capitulates
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/201774362/little-details-labour's-stance-on-tpp

    NZ Labour is officially stuffed

    this is one long running issue that could have united NZ First, Green and Labour for 2017

    • NZSage 13.1

      +100

    • Colonial Viper 13.2

      The Labour Leader Andrew Little says his party is not in a position to oppose the Trans Pacific Partnership deal, but a Labour government would flout some of its terms.

    • Puckish Rogue 13.3

      Or, heaven forbid, Labour realise this is in NZs best interest

    • Das 13.4

      Interesting group of MPs.
      What was the criteria that was decided for those MPs to meet with Groser?
      Labour leader, deputy, finance speckperson, and ….?

  14. greywarshark 14

    Don’t we love money. The more we have of it, the more we need to have more of it.

    The head of the panel that is carrying out a review of Child, Youth and Family (CYF) is being paid $2000 a day by the government.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/286820/cyf-reviewer-paid-$2000-a-day

    Paula Rebstock (left) will be earning almost double the maximum standard fee. Social Development Minister Anne Tolley (right) said there were ‘very few people in New Zealand with Ms Rebstock’s wealth of experience’
    (Me – As useful mercenary for RW governments. Our overseas expert! One of the professional feminism-empowered ‘Yo-Yo Sisters’ travelling around the world being RW change agents!)

    The government had to create a special exemption to enable the payment to Paula Rebstock, which is about double the maximum standard fee.
    Labour Party state services spokesman Kris Faafoi said he thought most New Zealanders would struggle to comprehend such a daily fee.

    Nice Work if you can get it.
    Ella Fitgerald sings some good thoughts.

    The man who only lives for making money
    Lives a life that isn’t necessarily sunny;
    Likewise the man who works for fame —
    There’s no guarantee that time won’t erase his name

    The fact is
    The only work that really brings enjoyment
    Is the kind that is for girl and boy meant.
    Fall in love — you won’t regret it.
    That’s the best work of all — if you can get it.
    Holding hands at midnight
    ‘Neath a starry sky…
    Oh that is nice work if you can get it.
    And you can get it — if you try.
    from ST Lyrics

    • Smilin 14.1

      Paua Rebstock “wealth of experience” more like her wealth out of our pockets A bit like Paua poaching

    • mac1 14.2

      Oh, I can easily understand what the scale of that $2000 per day fee means.

      I am a retired man, and this $2000 is what I earn for 80 hours work over three months. Ms Rebstock is earning x10 what I earn, and some x15 the minimum wage, which my BA Hons daughter earns as a cleaner.

      • greywarshark 14.2.1

        mac1
        The reply from the pollies would be, that can’t be true – education overcomes poverty and poor wages. Chanting slogans like that, which have been proved to be true generally, in third world countries, is all you get from these NZ propagandists.

        They haven’t got a handy quote about people working in a declining economy which has as its main aim, to have low inflation. I believe it is 0.8 this quarter, so thank your daughter for helping to provide stability by her restraint in asking for higher wages!

  15. Sabine 15

    interesting move by Medicines sans frontiers

    http://www.mintpressnews.com/doctors-without-borders-takes-unprecedented-action-against-us-military/210168/

    “Even war has rules,” declared Dr. Joanne Liu, international president of Doctor’s Without Borders (MSF), who announced Wednesday that the aid organization will take unprecedented action against the U.S. military by formally launching an international fact-finding inquiry into the bombing of its hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan.”

    not that I think it will amount to much, but at least they try.

    • Colonial Viper 15.1

      The erosion of the moral standing of the USA in international affairs accelerates.

      • vto 15.1.1

        I think the ‘erosion’ is more of a free-fall at the moment isn’t it?

        • Colonial Viper 15.1.1.1

          interestingly that’s from the point of the view of the ‘developed west.’ In most of the rest of the world – South America, Africa, the ME, there are very few illusions left amongst ordinary people as to what the US has been doing to them.

  16. Smilin 16

    Question :How does Steven Joyce get to or have the qualification to decide the future of Agresearch in NZ when he is a Media entrepreneur ?
    Does it not seem strange that he can create a ministry of everything which in concept is useless other than its seems the ultimate veto over most of the govt development and research activities and enterprises
    A very powerful position to be in and not subject to parliamentary review or it seems democracy only itself and the nationacorp caucus
    Frankly its corrupt

  17. One Anonymous Bloke 17

    Decision released in Kelsey vs. Minister of Trade

    …I have quashed the Minister’s decision in relation to six of the categories of documents requested by Professor Kelsey.

    Time for corrupt Ministers who break the law to face criminal charges.

    • The lost sheep 17.2

      The report doesn’t mention anyone being corrupt and breaking the law ?

      The Chief Ombudsman got it wrong also apparently. Does that make her corrupt and criminal in your opinion OAB?

      • One Anonymous Bloke 17.2.1

        Are you unaware of the well-documented pattern of behaviour of government ministers towards their OIA obligations?

        This is no isolated example.

        How do you propose to tackle it? Wet bus tickets? A round of golf? Cabinet Club?

        • The lost sheep 17.2.1.1

          How do you propose to tackle it?

          By having a democratic system that allows for fine points of law and Govt. actions to be tested by multiple independent and highly informed bodies such as the Ombudsman and the High Court.
          As has occurred in this case as it happens.

          And if the Minister and/or the Ombudsman had been guilty of a corrupt and criminal pattern of behavior I am confident the High Court would have said so.
          But it didn’t, so I’m just going to read your comments to that effect as politically motivated OTT nonsense.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 17.2.1.1.1

            The High Court was not asked to comment on that aspect, as it did not form part of Kelsey’s case. Are you also unaware of how law works?

            Requests are required to be processed in a timely manner. It is clear that the extended delays to this and many other requests deliberately defeats the purpose of the act. Relying on High Court action is no solution at all.

            I’m sure you’ll find some way to justify it to yourself anyway.

      • Pat 17.2.2

        the government has been shown to have acted unlawfully….as they did with the CERA Act where they have lost every action taken against them

        • The lost sheep 17.2.2.1

          Maybe you should read the report before making such comments Pat?

          • Pat 17.2.2.1.1

            http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/286864/tpp-requests-groser-acted-unlawfully
            which part of my comment would you like to refute lost sheep?

            • The lost sheep 17.2.2.1.1.1

              The bit about acting unlawfully Pat.

              Despite the Radio NZ headline using that term, the judgement specifically does not make such a finding. To quote…

              [3] The applicants have applied for a series of declarations concerning the lawfulness of the Minister’s approach and the meaning of specific provisions of the Act.
              [4] Rather than issue specific declarations I have quashed the Minister’s decision in relation to six of the categories of documents requested by Professor Kelsey.

              The report makes it clear that..
              [91] This proceeding is confined to questions about the correct interpretation and application of the Act, not the substantive merits of the Minister’s decision or the report of the Chief Ombudsman.
              The issue in this case is how the law should have been complied with, and in the opinion of the High Court in this case the Minister, His officials, and did not correctly comply with the Act.
              The complexity of doing so is demonstrated by the fact that the Chief Ombudsman has also failed to understand how the law should be complied with.

              Therefore the High Court has sent the Minister back to ‘reconsider his decision’ and supplied him with some instructions on how he should apply the law in the way I have explained

              So. No law broken, and no ruling that the Minister acted unlawfully.

              • Pat

                if they have failed to follow the law then ipso facto they have acted unlawfully…which is exactly the same ruling by both the high court and the supreme court re the red zone…the government were sent back to apply the law correctly…i.e lawfully……it is a very simple concept lost sheep

                http://www.minterellison.co.nz/Government_told_to_reconsider_offers_to_uninsured_property_owners_in_the_red_zone_03-26-2015/

                • The lost sheep

                  if they have failed to follow the law then ipso facto they have acted unlawfully

                  That does not in fact follow.
                  It is accepted that some laws are by nature extremely difficult to formulate in a manner that makes compliance easy to achieve, and so an ongoing process of interpretation is required. The OIA is one such law. (Employment Law is another. ‘Good Faith’? ‘What what a fair and reasonable employer would have done’?)
                  If you actually read the judgement you would find some fascinating discussion around how the law is to be complied with.
                  You would also discover why the High Court did not make a ruling that the actions of the Minister were ‘unlawful’.

                  In the case you link above the Supreme Court did make such a ruling. That is a completely different scenario.

                  • Pat

                    in fact LS the words unlawful wernt in the summary in the quake outcasts ruling either…yet unlawful it was…..i assume you will now be taking defamation action against all these journalists and media organisations that have erroneously reported this “unlawful” act?

                    • The lost sheep

                      I think it is widely accepted on this forum that all journalism is beyond redemption Pat.

                      That’s why I don’t take anything I read in the media as fact. I try and verify it at the source. Thanks to OAB for providing the link to that.

                      How did you find the judgement?
                      Excellent and valuable contribution I thought, and should result in better compliance with the intent of the OIA law going forward.

              • mickysavage

                Que?

                If the law had not been broken Kelsey would have lost. Try harder TLS.

                • The lost sheep

                  Have you read the report Micky?
                  Can you point out where it states anyone acted ‘unlawfully/broke the law’ as opposed to ‘did not comply’?

                  How do you think the Chief Ombudsman failed to understand how to comply?

                  • mickysavage

                    Check out McFlock’s comments below. There is no difference between breaking the law and not complying with the law.

                    If you are right Groser would have won and Kelsey would have lost.

                    • The lost sheep

                      There is a difference, as I’ve explained.
                      And as explained to Pat, there is a difference between a Court making a declaration of unlawfulness, and declining to make such a ruling.

                      There is a state in law of failing to interpret how to correctly comply.
                      The judgement in this case says that The Minister, his Officials, and the Chief Ombudsman all failed to correctly interpret how they should comply.
                      That is not necessarily a criminal or unlawful act, and in this case the High Court is not declaring it to be such.

      • McFlock 17.2.3

        The declaration says they broke the law.

        All you’re quibbling about is whether this repeated illegal behaviour by cabinet members and their offices is the product of corrupt intentions or abject and repeated incompetence.

        oh look, a flag…

        • The lost sheep 17.2.3.1

          See above McFlock.
          The High Court made no ruling that any law was broken.

          • McFlock 17.2.3.1.1

            cf:

            [107] None of the steps required by ss 18A and 18B of the Act were undertaken

            [109] […]The genuine administrative challenges associated with complying with the Act in this case did not entitle the Minister or MFAT to circumvent their duties under the Act.

            [110] The “blanket” approach taken by the Minister in this case did not comply with the text, scheme and purpose of the Act.

            They failed to comply with the law. That’s commonly known as “breaking the law”.

            Such a pity you missed that bit in the declaration. Whether it was incompetence or intent, I can’t be bothered speculating – either way you’re spinning while you split hairs.

            • The lost sheep 17.2.3.1.1.1

              They failed to comply with the law. That’s commonly known as “breaking the law”.

              We are talking about what the High Court actually determined McFlock, not what ‘common’ interpretation you or anyone else would like to put on it.

              If a law had been broken, The High Court would have said just that. But they did not.
              The judgement uses the specific phrase that the law had ‘not been complied with’, and it very carefully outlines why it did so.
              The reason for that is that ‘not comply’ and ‘broken’ are NOT the same thing at all in relation to laws.
              Which I’m sure someone of your erudition and subtlety understands perfectly, and as you have no doubt read the judgement itself you will also clearly understand why the High Court ‘did not think it is necessary to issue the declarations (of unlawfulness) sought by the applicants.

              • mickysavage

                Are you being serious? Did you read the judgment? And understand it?

                • The lost sheep

                  Yes.
                  It does not make a judgement of unlawfulness as the applicants requested.

                  • mickysavage

                    No the Judge declined to grant the declaration sought but still ruled Groser breached the OIA. Can you stop trying to teach me to suck eggs?

                    • The lost sheep

                      I’m not trying to teach you anything Mickey.
                      I just object people attempting to distort the meaning of the High Courts judgement through the deliberate substitution of terms and concepts that do not actually appear in the judgement.
                      I believe that is ‘commonly’ referred to as ‘spin’, and ‘spin’ is widely disproved of in this forum?

                      The term ‘breached the OIA’ does not appear in the judgement. So on what basis do you claim that the judge ruled that to be the case?

              • McFlock

                The reason for that is that ‘not comply’ and ‘broken’ are NOT the same thing at all in relation to laws.

                Actually, they are. The judge was simply refusing to declare whether the illegality perpetrated in coming to the minister’s decision made that decision itself illegal. In the same way that the Court of Appeal might determine that minor breaches of the Evidence Act did not affect the validity of the verdict.

                • The lost sheep

                  If the Judge didn’t declare it, you are simply projecting your bias into complete speculation McFlock.
                  Unless you happen to be a High Court Judge yourself, I think I’ll stick with the genuine article. No offense.

                  But you know I must be correct in this matter.
                  OAB started this thread.
                  If there is the slightest chink in any argument I put up, he will let me know immediately how many kinds and varieties of idiocy my comments represent.
                  He has said nothing.
                  ‘Ipso facto’ to quote Pat.
                  I must be correct.

                  • McFlock

                    1) Did or did not the judge repeatedly state that the government failed to comply with the processes and requirements set out in the Official Information Act when it refused Kelsey’s OIA request?

                    2) did the judge make a ruling on whether the refusa was legally correct?

                    I think we are agreed that the answer to 2 is “no”.
                    But the answer to 1 is “yes”.

                    • The lost sheep

                      Nearly there McFlock.
                      We’ve worked all the way from ‘corrupt’ and ‘criminal’, through all the other misinterpretations, and arrived at ‘legally correct’.

                      Now.
                      Did the Judgement state that anyone had acted ‘unlawfully’ and/or that any law had been ‘broken’ ?
                      No.

                      They are just words eh, and you can interchange them and they mean the same? Bollocks.
                      Different words are used precisely because they convey different meanings, and I take it as a rule of thumb that when someone chooses to substitute one word for another, it is because they are attempting to distort the meaning of the original statement.
                      What is wrong with the terms the judge used and why are so many here reluctant to use them?
                      Spin.

                      To back my point, I point out that the judgement itself contains several discussions of the exact meaning of certain words and phrases and the importance of interpreting them correctly.

                      The difficulty in doing so, and the reason the Judge chose to declare ‘failed to comply’ as opposed to ‘acted unlawfully’ is well illustrated by this quote…

                      [127] The terminology used in s 19(a)(i) and (ii) of the Act is contorted…….
                      ……. The drafters of s 19 of the Act appear to have used the terms “reason” and “grounds” in the converse manner to which they are normally used.

                    • McFlock

                      … two different words mean different things, so therefore these two expressions must mean different things?

                      Well, the next time you “fail to comply” with the local speed limit, let me know whether there is any substantive difference when you point this distinction out to the police officer.

                      The resolution to this argument is quite simple: rather than insisting that the two expressions mean different things, you can link to any reasonable source (such as legal dictionary, encyclopaedia entry, even a post on a fairly sane blog) that provides distinct meanings between “breaking the law” and “failing to comply with the law”.

                      For example, when I googled the two phrases together and ignored the ones about cops shooting people who failed to comply with their orders, several articles used the expressions interchangably.
                      For example, this news article. Or this one. Or this one from the UK. Or even this business law newsletter.

                      Feel free to back up your opinion with something other than a repeated insistence that your fart smells like roses. You argue that the two expressions mean legally precise and different things. Back it up.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    There is the slightest chink yawningest gulf in the arguments emotional response you outlined.

                    It’s been elucidated repeatedly by MS and McF, and perhaps you missed my comment at 17.2.1.1.1

                    I propose that deliberate and repeated breach of statutory requirements by a minister be criminalised. National has too much form in this area.

                    Note that this is a proposal, not an interpretation of the Groser verdict.

    • Whispering Kate 17.3

      There were eight categories so I wonder why the Judge with held the remaining two – probably considered too top secret for the eyes of the great unwashed.

  18. Gavin 18

    The government books are out tomorrow – after lunch – we’ll get to see if they are in balance or not. For the record, I think they’ll be short for the year, by over a billion dollars. That’s seven years straight, they’ve spent more than they got in.

    • lprent 18.1

      I suspect you will be right. Probably several billion once you remove the “specials” and optimistic forecasts.

    • Colonial Viper 18.2

      That’s seven years straight, they’ve spent more than they got in.

      The Government needs to be running a bigger deficit.

      What do you want National to do? Tax more in from Kiwi households and small and medium businesses than they spend on goods and services for the country?

      A really simple word for that: austerity.

      • McFlock 18.2.1

        Nah.

        “Austerity” focuses on cutting expenditure to pay government debt to corporates.

        This government focuses on transferring money to corporates via debt and diverting end-user expenditure to corporate contractors.

        Damned if I know of a single word that can describe how fucked up that is…

        • Smilin 18.2.1.1

          100 BILLION national debt ,how do any of us in this country have any money at all -crime is an alternative but the govt seems to have a mortgage on that to us all

      • Draco T Bastard 18.2.2

        Although I do agree with what you’re saying there’s a few things that need to happen as well:

        1. We stop the banks creating credit money
        2. We need to tax the rich far more
        3. We need capital taxes
        4. We need to stop the dollar being set by buyers/sellers and set it as a function of our terms of trade/imports/exports

  19. JanMeyer 19

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11528269

    For all those sympathisers and supporters of “file sharing” (read: collective theft of artistic work)

    • Colonial Viper 19.1

      Hey JanMeyer

      More like corporate profiteering and abusing of consumers and customers.

      • Psycho Milt 19.1.1

        I don’t think file sharing sites, for all the reasons they shouldn’t exist, really qualify as “corporate profiteers.” Or were you trying to claim that Ant Timpson is a corporate profiteer? Good luck with that one.

    • Gangnam Style 19.2

      I liked your scary commas, I even put on a scary voice reading out “file sharing”. I need more of a lead in before I will read your article, thanks anyway.

      • JanMeyer 19.2.1

        Yeah easier to just turn a blind eye and keep up the “file sharing”. Those evil capitalists deserve it. Too bad it also fucks up the financial return for independent film makers and other creatives trying to make a buck.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 19.2.1.1

          Like Lorde, for example. No, wait…

          There has never been more opportunity for artists to leverage income from talent: direct access to a genuinely global market with significantly reduced distribution costs.

          Clouds, silver linings, etc.

        • Puckish Rogue 19.2.1.2

          I’m sure they’ll get more job offers from being downloaded so many times (and as such being seen) then if it hadn’t been downloaded and just relied on movie takings alone

    • weka 19.3

      After four years spent working on Turbo Kid and producers deferring all fees, Timpson says they needed a payoff to help pay for its creation.

      If they got a dollar from every download: “we would be rich”.

      I suspect there is an answer to the problem right there. Who doesn’t want to share?

      • Draco T Bastard 19.3.1

        Yep, all they really have to do is make it so that they can get a dollar from every download.

        Of course then they’d actually be over paid.

        • JanMeyer 19.3.1.1

          Another genius! Please engage with Ant Timpson and the other independent creatives – they’re obviousiy idiots who have neglected to simply “charge a dollar for every download”!

          • weka 19.3.1.1.1

            Don’t be stupid. The point is that artists are tied into a system that rips most of them off, and that same system prevents them from making money in other ways (ways that many people want to support).

            It’s the corporates and their greed that are preventing artists from making a living. I’d quite happily pay small fees for downloading content (and support people who can’t afford that) but NZ is the classic example of why this doesn’t work under the current system. Content in film and tv is tied up in a whole bunch of location bullshit. The corporates are more interested in making shitloads of money than in supporting artists to create content and make a living and in giving the public access. The corporates could still make a living as well, but that’s not enough for them. Mass response of fuck ’em coinciding with new tech is pretty much why we’ve ended up in the current situation.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 19.3.1.1.1.1

              I think it’s the new tech rather than the attitude: just as Edison put candle-makers out of business, history is littered with such examples.

              That said, so long as people want to watch movies there’ll be a profit to be made from making them.

              • McFlock

                One of the criticisms I loved about the case against KDC was that essentially the media corporations were targeting kdc simply because his model of monetising information and its storage was much better suited (dare I say “most fit”) for the evolving technology situation.

                A smart organisation would have simply negotiated a reasonable licensing fee for any copies found on the servers – providing an incentive to locate and legitemise copies. And then the fee could have been small enough per download to work within the download service’s model without incurring fees to amateur users.

          • Draco T Bastard 19.3.1.1.2

            Your problem, and those like Ant Timpson, is that you haven’t really considered what changes are happening both socially and economically. The artificial monopolies that once existed are going the way of the dodo because they don’t work. This means that they, and we, need new ways. One of those new ways happens to be file sharing.

            Capitalism is dying and what we’re seeing is the last grasp of the bludging capitalists on our wealth and power.

          • grumpystilskin 19.3.1.1.3

            I charge a modest $1-7 for my downloads, pity they seem to pop up on filesharing sites and have around 1million+ downloads all without bothering to give me my share. Seems people are happy with fileshare sites as along as they are not the artist concerned. Do I not deserve an income from my efforts, especially as others are happy to steal but no pay for?
            (yes, I do provide samples of work online for free but it’s not these that are “shared”)
            Don’t start the “it’s a new age so evolve or die” bullshit. That’s ignorant talk. Do you get paid for your 9-5? What If I came to your workplace and took a few items without asking then distributed to friends, is that not theft?

            Not pointing at anyone, just venting.
            feeling better now!

            • McFlock 19.3.1.1.3.1

              In my workplace, our information outputs are freely available. We produce them because clients pay for them. If people want the outputs to exist, they pay for them. After that, anyone can have them. They are tailored to the client requirements, but other people find them useful.

              Information is not physical. Copying things incurs a negligible cost to us. Do you really think that you’d have more than a million extra sales if filesharing didn’t exist? How about you start leveraging that advertising edge, rather than lamenting a dying business model?

              If you’re in entertainment, take an example from some of the funk bands of the 1970s: locked out of the mainstream recording industry, they succeeded through improving their live performances. Or you could look at who’s downloading your material, and leverage that into endorsement deals.

              If you’re in software, there are other models you can use.

              If you’re adamant that only “legitimate” copies must exist, look into digitally watermarking each sold copy so you can identify the leakers.

            • Gangnam Style 19.3.1.1.3.2

              I too see my bands on file sharing sites, 1000s of copies of my songs all shared. But I am not stupid enough to think they would all buy my albums, most ppl are just curious hoarders downloading files for the sake of it, its a fast moving world the internet.

              I liked KDCs proposed file sharing model where you would have your songs on a streaming site, have a page like bandcamp, have everything for free, (stream or download) but you get paid by ppl viewing your bands page (through border ads). Seemed like a good idea, so if you are Kanye West you would get millions of views (oodles of cash) & someone a bit more low key like myself would get a few 100 views (a little bit of cash). Funnily enough, he was just in the process of setting it when he got raided.

              & there was a story recently about the guy who wrote that ‘All About the Bass’ song (which was the most pad-for-streamed song ever, number 1 in a bunch of countries) yet he only got a few thousand dollars, so the model still needs work!

            • Smilin 19.3.1.1.3.3

              Yes nothing worse than doin work and not even get a mention or payed by the beneficiaries of it
              A bit like this govt basic value for the masses

      • alwyn 19.3.2

        I wonder if we can get an opinion from Brian Edwards, once the beloved of the left, on whether clamping down on file sharing is a good thing?
        He was the one who, a few years ago described Public Libraries as being involved in “Grand Theft Copyright”.
        He will probably be of the view that the PPA rules people seem to think are in the agreement are a wonderful idea.

    • millsy 19.4

      If you think I am going to stop downloading torrents, then you can get fucked.

      Really.

      Kind over the copyright morals brigade who want me to pay through the nose for music that I cannot freely play on any device I want and see fit.

      Last time I looked the music industry was pretty healthy, even though people have been downloading music for the past 15-16 years.

      We are not all hipsters who listen to Mumford on Sons on their spotify playlist on their iPhones.

      Sometime people want to listen to their Mp3’s of Les Paul and Mary Ford on their Galaxy on the way to work.

  20. Smilin 20

    Solution for TPPA when it arrives in hard copy
    Rip it apart page by page and build a boat out of it and send it back to America and name the boat “Thanks but no thanks “

  21. Hami Shearlie 21

    Jane Kelsey has just had a win in the High Court against Tim Groser – with costs! GO JANE!! (on TV1 news at 12 midday)

  22. Puckish Rogue 22

    So with National and Labour both supporting the TPP and the two most successful PMs of the last few decades supporting it as well do you think that maybe those opposing it are on the wrong side of history?

    • Draco T Bastard 22.1

      No, that those two parties and leaders are on the wrong side of history. Society is changing and these people seek to stand in the way of that needed change.

      • Puckish Rogue 22.1.1

        The interesting thing is we both do agree that society is changing

        • Draco T Bastard 22.1.1.1

          Well then, why do you support the TPPA and other similar agreements that seek to prevent that change?

          • Puckish Rogue 22.1.1.1.1

            You misunderstand, I think society is changing for the better and trade agreements such as this will help facilitate that change

            Trade not aid is what raises people out of poverty so the more trade the better

            • Paul 22.1.1.1.1.1

              You really do talk nonsense.

            • Draco T Bastard 22.1.1.1.1.2

              The FTAs aren’t facilitating change as their whole purpose is to prevent it. The capitalists keep demanding stability in laws and such because they don’t things to change and the politicians give it to them in laws and trade agreements.

              And, no, trade doesn’t raise people out of poverty. Increased access to the necessities of life does. The present paradigm is about preventing that access so as to make a few people rich.

  23. Rosemary McDonald 23

    Time for a tune, perhaps the new National Anthem?

  24. Hami Shearlie 24

    I find it rather worrying that the Labour Party when meeting with Tim Groser over the TPPA, did not think fit to include their two financial heavyweights, David Cunliffe and David Parker in the discussions – What would David Dead-Fish Shearer know about trade? Stuart Nash is only very recently back in Parliament (don’t think he is a financial or trade expert). Phil Goff has a background in foreign affairs and trade, and Annette King in Health re Pharmac, so those people with Robertson (I suppose) make sense but not including David C and David P is very very strange indeed!

    • Paul 24.1

      Totally agree.
      Shearer, Nash and Goff are all to extreme right of the Labour Party and our just as much neo-liberal ideologues as Key’s cadre.

      • savenz 24.1.1

        Extremely odd. I have to agree if Labour have decided to agree with Key and keep TPP because it is ‘too hard’ to oppose it – then the centre and left have to go with NZ First, Greens or Internet Mana.

        In fact I think Cunliffe and quite a few others should leave Labour if Labour decide to go with TPP by default and actually get in power and create more of a central peoples party.

        Labour clearly no longer is working for it’s people if that is their attitude.

        Oh too hard to challenge TPP… Key such a nice guy when he is undermining (oh I mean buttering up) Labour.

        No wonder so many in Labour did not win their electorate seats. Voice of the people they are NOT!

  25. Chooky 25

    ‘ Is the End of Independent News and Websites of Bloggers in Sight? “Operating an Independent Website could become Completely Outlawed”.’

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/is-the-end-of-independent-news-and-websites-of-bloggers-in-sight-operating-an-independent-website-could-become-completely-outlawed/5481689

    “According to Matt Drudge it is. He is an American political commentator and the creator and editor of the Drudge Report, an online news aggregator.

    His website, according to Alexa has a global website rank of 616 and ranks in the USA at 132 and according to Quantcast is receiving, we think around 3 million hits a day or 90 million a month.

    In a startling unscheduled interview with Alex Jones on infowars.com Drudge warns “that the very foundation of the free Internet is under severe threat from copyright laws that could ban independent media outlets, revealing that he was told directly by a Supreme Court Justice, “It’s over for me.”….

    ….Worse, it doesn’t matter where your servers are. For that’s not what defines publication. It also doesn’t matter who the material is aimed at: nor even what language it is in. Publication happens if someone in the UK downloads whatever it is. That, in itself, is the act of publication. This effectively censors the entire world’s press and media in the United Kingdom.

    If the copyright laws in the US do go the way that Drudge says then one can only assume that the UK’s downloading rules will also apply there…

  26. Smilin 26

    I reckon its about time we change our govt system to a republic officially

  27. Smilin 27

    I reckon its about time we change our govt system to a republic officially
    It seems that this shyte that holds up this govt is as shaky as as the Isles we live on hence the production of BS by this govt could be the cause of our rising greenhouse emissions

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    RedlineBy Admin
    7 days ago
  • We need to take guns off police
    Today's IPCA report of police criminality: a police officer unalwfully tasered a fleeing suspect who posed no threat to anyone:The police watchdog has found an officer unlawfully tasered an Auckland man who broke his ankle jumping off a balcony to escape arrest. [...] To avoid arrest, the man jumped over ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 days ago
  • “Bringing kindness back”
    "Auckland City Mission: 10% of Kiwis experiencing food insecurity", RNZ, 16 October 2019:About half a million people are experiencing food insecurity, according to new research from the Auckland City Mission. Food insecurity, or food poverty, is defined as not having enough appropriate food. The City Mission said over the last ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 days ago
  • Press Release: “Fake News” from Auckland City Council CCOs Board Chairs re pay and performance b...
    Media Statement for Immediate Release 16th October 2019 “Fake News” from Auckland City Council CCOs Board Chairs re pay and performance bonuses for top managers Despite comments from Auckland City Council CCOs Board Chairs re pay and performance bonuses for top managers—Herald Newspaper Tuesday Oct 15th–there is very little evidence ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    7 days ago
  • Ever-So-Slightly Bonkers: Simon Bridges Plays To His Base.
    Would You Buy A Used Propaganda Video From This Man? Bridges and the National Party’s strategists have discovered that the ideas and attitudes considered acceptable by today’s editors and journalists are no longer enforceable. The rise and rise of the Internet and the social media platforms it spawned means that ...
    7 days ago
  • Asking for food
    There is plenty of evidence of the way the business mentality has permeated every level of society since the recrudescence of market liberalism 35 years ago. You only need to think of how citizens in need of help from their government, their state, their country, are now routinely described as ...
    Opposable ThumbBy Unknown
    7 days ago
  • Forty years of change in the jobs Kiwi do and the places they call home
    John MacCormick Over the last 40 years, New Zealanders – and people in other countries – have experienced big changes in the jobs they do and where they live and work. These changes include: a decline in manufacturing jobs an increase in jobs in ‘information-intensive’ industries (which are better paid ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    7 days ago
  • Protecting Fresh Waterways in Aotearoa/NZ: The Strong Public Health Case
    Nick Wilson, Leah Grout, Mereana Wilson, Anja Mizdrak, Phil Shoemack, Michael Baker Protecting waterways has the benefits of: (1) protecting water from hazardous microbes; (2) minimising cancer risk and other problems from nitrates in water; (3) avoiding algal blooms that are hazardous to health; (4) protecting mahinga kai uses (cultural ...
    SciBlogsBy Public Health Expert
    1 week ago
  • Massey University triggered to rebrand
    by The Council of Disobedient Women In a press release today Massey University announced it has decided to rebrand and reorientate after struggling to be a University for grown-ups. For some time the University has wanted to be a safe play space for wee-woke-misogynists who have been really badly triggered ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Swinson backing calls for a second referendum (again)
    After a brief dalliance with 'hard Revoke' it looks like the Lib Dems are changing ground on on Brexit, with leader Jo Swinson reverting to calling for a second referendum on Johnson's deal.The party has tabled an amendment to the Queen’s speech requesting that any deal brought back from Brussels ...
    1 week ago
  • An odious bill
    The government has decided that someone has done Something Bad. But despite their belief, there seems to be no evidence that they have actually broken the law. So the government's solution is to pass a retrospective law allowing them to be punished anyway, on a lower standard of proof. If ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • National is now the party of climate arson
    So, Judith Collins has done a Facebook rant about climate change, peddling the same shit National has been shovelling for the past twenty years: the impacts are overstated, there's no need to do anything about it, and its too hard anyway (oh, and its so unfair that people who peddle ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • The environmental footprint of electric versus fossil car
    Climate Explained is a collaboration between The Conversation, Stuff and the New Zealand Science Media Centre to answer your questions about climate change. If you have a question you’d like an expert to answer, please send it to climate.change@stuff.co.nz There is a lot of discussion on the benefits of ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    1 week ago
  • “Manifest” by Andrew Bird – A Song For The Times.
    I came across this song quite by accident. If it isn't one of Greta Thunberg's favourites - it should be.Video courtesy of YouTube.This post is exclusive to Bowalley Road. ...
    1 week ago
  • Passing the buck
    Last month, NZDF's shoddy coverup of what it knew about civilian casualties in Operation Burnham began to fall apart, with the revelation that a report on the matter, which NZDF claimed not to have, had been sitting in an NZDF safe for the past nine years. Yesterday, the man responsible ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • India a major player in Earth observation satellites
    While many imagine that countries like the USA and Europe dominate space activities, in fact India is now a major player on this stage. It launches satellites for its own purposes and also commercially, and has constellations orbiting our planet and returning data of vital importance to that nation in ...
    SciBlogsBy Duncan Steel
    1 week ago
  • The rot at the top (2).
    Thanks to a report from the Acting Inspector General of Intelligence and Security following a complaint by Nicky Hager, we have come to find out that the SIS illegally spied on Mr. Hager on behalf of the NZDF after publication of Hager’s 2011 book, Other People’s Wars. The NZDF justified ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    1 week ago
  • Common misconceptions about “Global Warming”
    COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING MYTH 1: Global temperatures are rising at a rapid, unprecedented rate. FACT: The HadCRUT3 surface temperature index, produced by the Hadley Centre of the UK Met Office and the Climate Research Unit of the University of East Anglia, shows warming to 1878, cooling to 1911, ...
    An average kiwiBy admin@averagekiwi.com
    1 week ago
  • A climate of tyranny
    For the past week, Extinction Rebellion has been peacefully protesting in London to demand action on climate change. The British government's response? Ban their protests:Police have banned Extinction Rebellion protests from continuing anywhere in London, as they moved in almost without warning to clear protesters who remained at the movement’s ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Collins crushes climate
    An essay by Judith Collins MP reported on Carbon News yesterday seems to show an alarming shift in attitude within the National Party. Collins argues against the Zero Carbon Bill, the Paris Agreement, and downplays the magnitude of climate impacts. The Paris Agreement was adopted in December 2015 and ratified ...
    SciBlogsBy Robert McLachlan
    1 week ago
  • More disappointment
    When they were running for election, Labour promised to overhaul the Employment Relations Act and introduce fair pay agreements to set basic pay and conditions on an industry level, preventing bad employers from undercutting good ones. They followed this up by establishing a working group, which reported back in January ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • What do these mother-child studies really say about fluoridation?
    A list of indicators of bad science – many of these are found in articles promoted by anti-fluoride activists. Anti-fluoride activists have been pouring money into a scaremongering campaign warning pregnant women not to drink fluoridated water. They claim fluoride will lower the IQ of their future child. Fluoride ...
    1 week ago
  • Losing Labour’s Mills-Tone.
    Nothing Left To Say: Labour's pollster, Stephen Mills, remains swaddled-up in the comforting myths of the 1980s. As if the experience of Roger Douglas’s genuinely radical post-Muldoon policy agenda was literally a once-in-a-lifetime thing – as much as the party could possibly absorb for at least the next 50 years.MEMO ...
    1 week ago
  • Speaker: Disability and the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Historical Abuse
    The Royal Commission on abuse in care is very significant for the disability community. For many decades last century, thousands of disabled children, and adults who managed to survive, were locked away from families and communities. This was not for anything they had done, but for the perceived threat their ...
    1 week ago
  • Spain is not a democracy
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • UK Conservatives hate democracy
    With an unfair voting system, uneven electorates and an un-elected upper house, the UK's "democracy" is barely worthy of the name. But now the government wants to make it worse:The government has been accused of suppressing voters’ rights with the potential disenfranchisement of tens of thousands of people after plans ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • What is wrong with our building industry?
    Back in the 90's and early 2000's, the building industry was building leaky homes which should never have been granted consent. Now it turns out they've been building dodgy office blocks as well:New imaging technology has revealed hundreds of major buildings nationwide have defective or missing concrete or reinforcing steel. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Local bodies
    Local body election results were released over the weekend, to joy or despair depending on where you live. In Auckland, Phil Goff trounced John Tamihere, who is muttering darkly about running for Parliament again (but which party would want him?) Wellington is now a wholly-owned subsidiary of Weta Workshop, except ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • A future of government
      How could government evolve over the next decades? Reports of democracy’s imminent demise are greatly exaggerated.  However, satisfaction with political systems in many countries is low, so there is much to do for governments of all political stripes to improve relevance and trust. Digital technologies are seen as one ...
    SciBlogsBy Robert Hickson
    2 weeks ago
  • Speaker: Catalonia, interrupted
    Two years have now gone by since the Friday afternoon when my university-student son and I headed out of our Barcelona flat to a nearby primary school, designated as a polling station for the vote that was to be held the following Sunday: the referendum on Catalonia’s independence from Spain ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Sage Decisions Unwisely Over-Ruled.
    Overruled: The joint decision of Finance Minister, Grant Robertson (Labour) and his Associate Minister, David Parker (Labour) arguably the two most powerful ministers in Jacinda Ardern’s government, to grant OceanaGold the consents which Land Information Minister, Eugenie Sage (Greens) had earlier denied them, offers bitter proof of how hard fighting ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Government may ban voting in effort to get more people to do it
    More than double the number of people who will vote in this year’s local body elections have tried marijuana or urinated somewhere they shouldn’t have. As local elections look set for the lowest turnout in decades, with many regions falling well short of 40%, the Government is exploring a number ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Woman: Deleted.
    A Statement on Abortion Law Reform by the Council of Disobedient Women   On the eve of bringing an end to antiquated, anti-women abortion laws Green MP Jan Logie intends to write women out of the Bill. With a stroke of the pen, the woke are aiming for total erasure ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 weeks ago
  • The Hollowest of Men Ride Again… SURPRISE!
    Musings continue apace about “the experienced businessman!” soon to be taking up a National Party MP position. Or to be more accurate, being parachuted into a seat to shut down their former MP Jamie-Lee Ross, who despite his own shortcomings shed at least some more light on the inner workings ...
    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    2 weeks ago
  • Barbaric
    The Ugandan government wants to murder gay people:Uganda has announced plans to impose the death penalty on homosexuals. The bill, colloquially known as “Kill the Gays” in Uganda, was nullified five years ago on a technicality, but the government said on Thursday it plans to resurrect it within weeks. The ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Is this study legit? 5 questions to ask when reading news stories of medical research
    Hassan Vally, La Trobe University Who doesn’t want to know if drinking that second or third cup of coffee a day will improve your memory, or if sleeping too much increases your risk of a heart attack? We’re invested in staying healthy and many of us are interested in reading ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    2 weeks ago
  • Fighting Monsters.
    Freedom Of Speech? The Säuberung (cleansing by fire) was the work of the German Student Union which, on 10 May 1933, under the watchful eye of the Nazi Reichminister for Propaganda, Joseph Goebbels, consigned 25,000 books to the flames in a ritual exorcism of “un-German thought”. According to the logic of the ...
    2 weeks ago
  • The next wave of kaupapa Māori politics: its constitutional, it must be.
      “There can be no such thing as kaupapa Māori political parties or politics in Aotearoa” (Willie Jackson, Labour Party (2017). Māori TV, General/List Election Special) I begin with that claim because at the time, I was confounded at first that it fell out of Willie Jackson’s mouth, and then ...
    EllipsisterBy Ellipsister
    2 weeks ago
  • Night lights of NZ from orbit
    New Zealand has prided itself for decades with regard to its lack of pollution, and all will be aware that the ‘100% Pure New Zealand‘ meme is under threat through land, water and air pollution of various causes. There is another type of contamination that the country also faces: light ...
    SciBlogsBy Duncan Steel
    2 weeks ago
  • Reporters deliver uplifting news to fleeing Japanese residents: they won’t miss any rugby
    New Zealand’s media is doing its part in Japan, reassuring those in the path of the storm that they won’t miss any rugby while away from their flooded homes. New Zealand sports reporters stationed in Japan for the Rugby World Cup have had the rare and heartwarming opportunity to inform ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Government in contentious discussions about whether to put surplus on red or black
    Regional Development Minister Shane Jones is the only Cabinet member in favour of putting it all on green. As Finance Minister Grant Robertson finds himself with an enormous $7.5 billion surplus, the Government has begun intense, at times contentious conversations about whether to put the money on red or black at ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Jordanian teachers’ successful strike has lessons for here
    by Susanne Kemp At the start of September close to 100,000 school teachers went on strike in Jordan.  They demanded a 50% pay rise.  A pay rise actually agreed to by the regime back in 2014. In early October, however, in the face of government repression and threats, the teachers’ ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Why some people still think climate change isn’t real
    Climate Explained is a collaboration between The Conversation, Stuff and the New Zealand Science Media Centre to answer your questions about climate change. If you have a question you’d like an expert to answer, please send it to climate.change@stuff.co.nz Why do people still think climate change isn’t real? David ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    2 weeks ago

  • Minister of Finance and Sport and Recreation to visit Japan and Vietnam
    Finance Minister Grant Robertson departs tomorrow for events and meetings in Japan and Vietnam.  While in Japan, he will discuss economic and fiscal issues including meeting with the Minister of Finance, Taro Aso, and Minister of Economic and Fiscal Policy, Yasutoshi Nishimura. He will meet with the Minister of Education, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    12 hours ago
  • Dashboard tracks housing progress
    The Government’s Housing Dashboard released today confirms record numbers of state houses are under construction and shows the Government build programme is gaining momentum.  “After nine years of inaction, and a hands-off attitude from the previous government we’re starting to see things move in the right direction for housing,” says ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    14 hours ago
  • Ministerial Statement on the International Convention Centre fire
    Mr Speaker, I wish to make a ministerial statement relating to the Auckland fire. The Government is closely monitoring the situation with the fire at the NZ International Convention Centre and is thankful that everyone is now safe. Firefighters are doing an incredible job managing the fire and bringing it ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    15 hours ago
  • Government invests in Te Reo, environmental data research
    The Government is investing in ambitious research that will digitise Te Reo, grow the low-carbon protein efficient aquaculture industry, help interpret environmental trends, and large data sets says Research, Science and Innovation Minister Megan Woods. The four projects range from teaching Siri to speak Te Reo to crunching large environmental ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    20 hours ago
  • Government announces next steps as part of a comprehensive plan to fix skills gap
    A new education-to-employment brokerage service to strengthen connections between local employers and schools. Funding for more trades focused ‘speed-dating’ events to connect schools with employers. Promotional campaign to raise profile of vocational education. The Government is taking action to increase the number of young people taking up vocational education and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    21 hours ago
  • Corrections Amendment Bill passes third reading
    A Bill to improve prison security and ensure the fair, safe, and humane treatment of people in prison while upholding public safety has passed its third reading. Corrections Minister Kelvin Davis says the Corrections Amendment Bill makes a number of changes to ensure the Corrections Act 2004 is fit for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Ngāi Tahu CEO appointed to NZ-China Council
    Minister for Māori Development, Nanaia Mahuta, has selected Arihia Bennett MNZM, Chief Executive Officer of Te Rūnanga o Ngāi Tahu, as the Te Puni Kōkiri appointed representative on the New Zealand-China Council. The New Zealand-China Council (the Council) was established in 2012 as a New Zealand led and funded organisation ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Southern Response claims move to EQC
    Responsibility for processing the small number of Southern Response claims still to be settled will be transferred to EQC by the end of the year. “As claim numbers reduce, it no longer makes sense for the Crown to have two organisations processing the remaining Canterbury claims,” Grant Robertson says. “Since ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Bowel screening starts in Whanganui
    Health Minister David Clark is encouraging Whanganui residents to take up the opportunity for free bowel screening, which can detect cancer early when it’s easier to treat.   Over the next two years 12,000 Whanganui locals, aged 60 to 74 will be invited to participate in the National Bowel Screening ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Pacific Peoples Minister to attend Our Ocean Conference in Norway
    Minister for Pacific Peoples Aupito William Sio, heads to Oslo today to represent New Zealand at the sixth Our Ocean Conference, which is being hosted by the Norwegian Government from the 23-24 October. “The Our Ocean Conference mobilises real action on issues like marine plastic pollution and the impacts of ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Government announces 27 percent increase in Trades Academy places
    Two secondary-school initiatives are being expanded as part of the Government’s plan to see more young New Zealanders take up a trade to help close the skills gap.   This includes the largest single increase in Trades Academy places in recent years. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and Education Minister Chris ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Speech to the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs, Pacific Futures Conference: Connection...
    Session 4: Pacific Connectivity – Youth, Media and New Opportunities   Kia ora tatou katoa and Warm Pacific greetings to one and all. Representatives of Tainui, the local people of the land, or manawhenua – the indigenous peoples of this area – have welcomed you this morning in accordance with ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Methane reducing cattle feed one step closer
    The Government today announced its support for a project that could substantially reduce agricultural greenhouse gas emissions from cattle. The announcement was made as part of Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern’s and Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor’s visit to Nelson’s Cawthron Aquaculture Park. The Cawthron Institute will receive $100,000 from the Government’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Bill to refresh superannuation system passes first reading
    Social Development Minister Carmel Sepuloni has welcomed the first reading of the New Zealand Superannuation and Veteran’s Pension Legislation Amendment Bill. “Every New Zealander has a stake in New Zealand Superannuation and Veteran’s Pension,” says Carmel Sepuloni. “They are our most common form of social assistance – nearly 800,000 New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government announces next steps in fight against measles
    Babies in Auckland aged six months and over can receive a free vaccination and children will all have access to vaccines, Associate Minister of Health Julie Anne Genter announced today at Papatoetoe High School.   The move comes as part of Government efforts to step up the fight against measles. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Speech to the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs, Pacific Futures: Connections, Identity...
    ***Check against delivery*** Good morning. It is a pleasure to be here, and to have the honour of opening this important conference on behalf of the New Zealand Institute of International Affairs. Let us take the opportunity to acknowledge all the people who have helped make today possible, including our special ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Police trial new response to high risk events
    Police Minister Stuart Nash says the safety of frontline officers and members of the public will be the focus of a new trial of specialist Police response teams in three of our largest urban centres. Police have this morning released details of an initiative to be trialled in Counties Manukau, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • New awards celebrate fisheries sustainability
    The Minister of Fisheries is calling for entries for a new public award to celebrate innovation in our seafood sector. “I have established the Seafood Sustainability Awards to recognise and celebrate those throughout industry, tangata whenua and communities who demonstrate outstanding dedication and innovation towards the sustainability of New Zealand’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • More progress for women and we can do more
    Minister for Women Julie Anne Genter welcomes leaders in the private sector taking action on closing their gender pay gaps to ensure a fairer workplace for all New Zealanders. Ms Genter today launched a new report, Addressing the gender pay gap and driving women’s representation in senior leadership, from the Champions for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Proposals to curb environmental damage help our coasts and the oceans
    Government Ministers today welcomed the release of a marine environment report highlighting the four key issues affecting our oceans, estuaries and coastlines.  The release underlines the importance of government proposals to combat climate pollution, ensure clean freshwater, protect biodiversity, make land use more sustainable, and reduce waste and plastic.    Environment ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • New mental health facility for Waikato
    The Government has approved funding for a new acute mental health facility for Waikato which will provide better care and support to people with mental health and addiction issues. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and Health Minister Dr David Clark announced the $100 million project to replace the aging Henry Rongomau ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • 500 new te reo Māori champions in our classrooms
    The Government is making progress on its goal to integrate te reo Māori into education by 2025, with over 500 teachers and support staff already graduating from Te Ahu o te Reo Māori,  Associate Education Minister Kelvin Davis announced today. Kelvin Davis made the announcement at an awards ceremony in Waikanae today, for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Minister James Shaw welcomes 2018 Census first release
    Statistics Minister James Shaw has welcomed the first release of 2018 Census data. The first release of data today, 23 September, includes key data on population, regional growth, the number of homes and the size of different ethnic groups in New Zealand. Data from the 2018 Census will support the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Driving transparency, ethics and accountability in government use of algorithms
    Minister for Statistics James Shaw today announced a public consultation on a proposed algorithm charter for government agencies. The charter has been developed by the Government Chief Data Steward in response to growing calls for more transparency in government use of data. Computer algorithms – procedures or formulas for solving ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • New Zealand and the Netherlands working together on climate change
    Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor, Climate Change Minister James Shaw and visiting Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte co-hosted a business roundtable in Auckland this morning focused on working together to address climate change.  “The Netherlands is an important partner for New Zealand. We share a strong agricultural history. Sustainable agribusiness and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Protecting fairness for workers and businesses
    The Government is taking action to build an inclusive economy where more of us receive our fair share at work and businesses can compete on great products and services, not undercutting wages and conditions, Immigration and Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Iain Lees-Galloway says. Two consultations launched today seek feedback ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Indigenous Freshwater Fish Bill Passes
    The future for New Zealand’s threatened indigenous freshwater fish looks brighter with the passing of the Conservation (Indigenous Freshwater Fish) Amendment Bill in Parliament today said Minister of Conservation, Eugenie Sage. “Until now, our freshwater fish legislation has been 20 years out of date. We have lacked effective tools to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Kiwis to take part in world’s biggest earthquake drill
    At 1.30pm tomorrow, hundreds of thousands of Kiwis will join about 65 million people around the globe in ShakeOut, the world’s biggest earthquake drill. The annual drill is to remind people of the right action to take during an earthquake which is to Drop, Cover, Hold, and to practise their ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Rising wages and low inflation supporting Kiwis
    Kiwis are benefiting from higher wage growth and low inflation under the Coalition Government. Stats NZ data out today shows the rise in the cost of living remains low, as annual Consumers Price Index (CPI) inflation fell to 1.5% in September from 1.7% in June. “The low inflation comes as ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • NZ economy strong amid global headwinds
    New Zealand’s economic strength and resilience has been recognised in a major update on the state of the global economy. The IMF’s latest World Economic Outlook released overnight shows a reduced global growth forecast over the next two years as issues like the US-China trade war and Brexit take hold. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Keeping New Zealanders safer with better counter-terrorism laws
    Justice Minister Andrew Little has today introduced a new Bill to prevent terrorism and support the de-radicalisation of New Zealanders returning from overseas. The Terrorism Suppression (Control Orders) Bill gives the New Zealand Police the ability to apply to the High Court to impose control orders on New Zealanders who ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Improved succession and dispute resolution core of Ture Whenua changes
    A Bill that proposes targeted changes to simplify the processes for Māori land owners when engaging with the Māori Land Court has had its First Reading today. “The approach taken by the Government is to ensure that the protection of Māori land remains a priority as we seek to improve ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Speech to CTU Biennial Conference
    Let me first thank all the new unionists and members in the room. There is nothing more important to improving people’s working lives than people making the decision to care, to get on board and help, to take up the reins and get involved. Congratulations to you. You bring the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Minister ensures continued Whenuapai flight operations
    Minister of Defence Ron Mark has signed a certificate exempting the activity of engine testing at Whenuapai Airbase from the Resource Management Act 1991. The Act gives the Minister of Defence the power to exempt activities for the purposes of national security.  The certificate will mean the recent Environment Court ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • NZ joins Coalition of Finance Ministers for Climate Action
    Finance Minister Grant Robertson has announced New Zealand will join the Coalition of Finance Ministers for Climate Action while attending APEC meetings in Chile. The objective of the 39 member Coalition is to share information and promote action to tackle climate change. It was formed in April this year, in ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Feedback Sought – Section 71 – Lyttelton Parking
    Feedback sought– Lyttelton commercial zone parking  The Associate Minister for Greater Christchurch Regeneration, Poto Williams, is seeking feedback on a proposal to remove on-site car parking requirements for new developments in the Lyttelton commercial zone.  The proposal, by Christchurch City Council, asks that powers under section 71 of the Greater ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Feedback Sought – Section 71 – Hagley Oval
    Hon Minister Poto Williams Associate Minister for Greater Christchurch Regeneration   MEDIA STATEMENT       Tuesday 15 October 2019 Feedback sought – Hagley Oval The Associate Minister for Greater Christchurch Regeneration, Poto Williams, is seeking feedback on a proposal about Hagley Oval. The proposal was developed by Regenerate Christchurch ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • CTU speech – DPM
    Ladies and gentlemen, NZCTU President Richard Wagstaff, members of respective unions – thank you for the invitation to speak to you today. This might be preaching to the choir, but the importance of trade unions in New Zealand’s historical arch is difficult to understate. And it is my belief that ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Police Association Annual Conference
    "Let’s start by acknowledging that it has been a huge year. " Police Association Annual Conference James Cook Grand Chancellor Hotel Wellington Nau mai, haere mai. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, ka nui te mihi, ki a koutou katoa. President of the Police Association, Chris Cahill; Members of the Association and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • New Zealand announces a further P-3 deployment in support of UN sanctions
    Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters and Minister of Defence Ron Mark have announced the New Zealand Government’s decision to again deploy a Royal New Zealand Air Force P-3K2 (P-3) maritime patrol aircraft to support the implementation of United Nations Security Council (UNSC) resolutions imposing sanctions against North Korea. New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
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