Open Mike 14/01/2018

115 comments on “Open Mike 14/01/2018 ”

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1. Ed 1

   14 January 2018 at 8:09 am

   Alcohol
   A blight on our society
   #3

   Young drinkers consuming more alcohol than ever.

   Dr Jackson said in fact, hazardous binge-drinking had been getting worse, and the government needed to raise the price of alcohol.

   “Since 2011 we haven’t seen any positive change in 18 to 24 year old drinking so you know this is great, they’re protecting their brains while they’re very very vulnerable but we’ve got to make sure that when they hit that age they’re not just stepping into that culture,” she said.
   • One Anonymous Bloke 1.1

     14 January 2018 at 8:33 am

     However, what is it that causes people to abuse booze and other drugs?

     Economics.

     People in more equal societies are far less likely to experience mental illness.

     Blaming inanimate substances for the damage that right wing economists do just makes finding solutions more difficult. It’s a waste of resources and a sop to moralising curtain-twitchers.
     • Muttonbird 1.1.1

       14 January 2018 at 8:51 am

       Straight out of the NRA handbook!
       • One Anonymous Bloke 1.1.1.1

         14 January 2018 at 10:44 am

         Do you have any substantive objection to the observation that alcohol abuse is connected to the GINI?

         Where alcohol is priced out of people’s reach – or prohibited altogether – they make it themselves, at home.
         • Ed 1.1.1.1.1

           14 January 2018 at 11:09 am

           No.
           I think that sounds right.
     • Ed 1.1.2

       14 January 2018 at 9:04 am

       I agree.
       The extent of alcohol abuse in New Zealand is caused by neo-liberalism.
       • One Anonymous Bloke 1.1.2.1

         14 January 2018 at 10:47 am

         What was the cause of the extensive alcoholism in the USSR?
         • BM 1.1.2.1.1

           14 January 2018 at 10:50 am

           The Edbots CPU has just exploded.
         • Ed 1.1.2.1.2

           14 January 2018 at 11:08 am

           I would imagine poverty and deprivation.
       • JohnSelway 1.1.2.2

         14 January 2018 at 11:02 am

         Not according to the MoH – alcohol rates have been steadily dropping rather rising under neo-liberalism (not a defense of neo-liberalism, just the facts don’t align with your opinion)

         http://www.moh.govt.nz/notebook/nbbooks.nsf/0/66f2e1f58796381e4c2566de0005fcf3/$FILE/phot_145_153.pdf

         Edit – report only covers 1980 – 2000 but nonetheless clearly shows neo-liberalism and alcohol use doesn’t. It seem to be correlated
       • Tuppence Shrewsbury 1.1.2.3

         14 January 2018 at 4:52 pm

         Is there any societal Ill you believe is not caused by neo liberalism?
         • McFlock 1.1.2.3.1

           14 January 2018 at 5:04 pm

           To be fair, most social ills are at the very least exacerbated by it.

           I’m having a bit of difficulty thinking of a social ill that doesn’t have a large proportion of its present prevalence attributable to neoliberalism, i.e. it would be much less of an issue if we’d kept our social democratic / democratic socialist ideals of Savage and Kirk and even Muldoon.

           edit: I suppose the starting point would be some sort of congenital condition that’s not due to antenatal factors or genetic damage to a parent from environmental factors. But even then you have the affordability of ongoing life-course care for the baby.
           • Ed 1.1.2.3.1.1

             14 January 2018 at 5:29 pm

             This interview with ‘The Spirit Level’ author Richard Wilkinson explains how inequality creates societal ills.
   • BM 1.2

     14 January 2018 at 8:50 am

     What a load of bullshit that article was.

     Executive director of Alcohol Healthwatch Nicki Jackson is just trying to justify the grants her organization receives, it can never improve otherwise she puts herself out of a job.
   • veutoviper 1.3

     14 January 2018 at 9:04 am

     An interesting article, Ed, but it would be helpful if you had included in your summary that this Australian study (considered by the NZ Alcohol Healthwatch to be in line with what is happening to NZ) also found that more teenagers are choosing to turn away from alcohol.

     The remarks you quoted from Dr Jackson, Executive Director of Alcohol Healthwatch were in fact preceded by this statement in respect of New Zealand:

     “”Yes, there’s been declines in young people choosing to take up drinking but we’ve seen no declines whatsoever in the style in which young people drink, they’re still drinking very heavily so that culture hasn’t changed.”
     • Ed 1.3.1

       14 January 2018 at 9:05 am

       Good point.
       • eco maori 1.3.1.1

         14 January 2018 at 8:35 pm

         I agree with you ED alcohol is A DRUG that cause more damage to OUR worlds society as the law says its safe to consume this poison yes ITS a poison
         1I know of at least 5 people whom have died from drinking to much alcohol one of them was a famous Rock Star .
         2 Our youth think its safe until next minute they are locked up for something they did while pissed and can not remember what happened and if that person was not pissed they would be a good person and never commit a crime.
         3 Other people whom are experienced drinkers can wait untill one is tiddly and then encourage them to drink up hotties usually and they have got you pissed and can get the you to do what they want
         4 drinks can be spiked with other drugs never leave your drinks unattended make sure you go drinking with people you trust as If one is pissed I say you are mental as most don’t remember what they did when one is rolling blind drunk this is why they call it blind drunk and there are reports of people losing one sight temporary when one has consumed to much alcohol .
         5 I think its a sin to let OUR Mokos think alcohol is a safe drug and then let them find out all the negative effects alcohol has on them while they are in a unsafe environment all the bad side effects of alcohol should be advertize so OUR mokos know to sip the stuff or it will fuck them up.
         6 What about all the violence that happens when people are pissed check the hospital records
         7 Car crashes other people being killed by drunks drivers what a waste of lives
         8 All the disabled people who got there injuries while pissed
         9 Every year we have two big events and everyone is encouraging everyone to get pissed I could not work that out logically I drink a little I learnt through trial and error If one is in a good mood when drinking alcohol its not to bad but if one is in a bad mood while drinking that’s when the violence starts I have never hit any of my loved ones while being drunk most of the time I would not bother to go and drink it was others that got me to go out with them I was happy watching videos at home.
         10 The neoliberal used alcohol to break MAORI MANA my te puna Sir Apirana Ngata new this was happening and in 1920 got a ban on alcohol on the east coast for 10 years He was the one person who saved a lot of Maoris Mana need
         I say more Ka kite ano
         • Ed 1.3.1.1.1

           14 January 2018 at 9:11 pm

           Quite a list of damage to our people in this country.
           It makes me both angry and sad to see the devastation this repulsive drug does.
           It would be so simple to apply a more sensible drug policy for alcohol.
   • Psycho Milt 1.4

     14 January 2018 at 9:21 am

     Your comment is an example of the logical fallacy “non-sequitur.”

     Your argument is:

     Premise: some yoofs still drink a lot of alcohol.

     Conclusion: therefore, alcohol is a blight on our society.

     But the conclusion you’ve drawn doesn’t logically follow from the premise you’ve provided. I guess there’s an implied premise in there that alcohol is a Bad Thing, but that would merely change the logical fallacy to “begging the question.”

     I can’t really blame you though, as non-sequitur is also Dr Jackson’s mode of operation – it’s fairly hard to endorse her views without falling into logical fallacies yourself.
     • Ed 1.4.1

       14 January 2018 at 9:22 am

       Don’t you think alcohol is a blight on our society?
       • BM 1.4.1.1

         14 January 2018 at 9:23 am

         No.

         The people who can’t handle their piss and cause problems are a blight on society.

         The best option is to ban the people who abuse alcohol and leave the vast majority of people who like a beer, wine or whatever your drink of choice is, alone.
         • Ed 1.4.1.1.1

           14 January 2018 at 9:40 am

           Here is some evidence of the damage alcohol does to society …..

           In 2012, driver alcohol was a contributing factor in 73 fatal crashes, 331 serious injury crashes and 933 minor injury crashes. These crashes resulted in 93 deaths, 454 serious injuries and 1,331 minor injuries.

           A third of violent offences, including family violence, and 44 per cent of homicides involve someone who has been drinking. As do 62,000 physical assaults and 10,000 sexual assaults, per year.

           According to alcohol.org.nz, between 18 per cent and 35 per cent of injury-based emergency department presentations in New Zealand are estimated to be alcohol-related. This rises to between 60 per cent and 70 per cent during the weekend.

           Approximately 45 per cent of fire fatalities are alcohol-related, as are approximately 11 per cent of drowning deaths

           around 10 per cent of New Zealand’s population of 4.4 million was alcoholic.

           New Zealanders spend about $85 million a week on alcohol, but it costs the country about $5 billion a year in damage.

           New Zealand is no paradise, we’re all drunk

           Latta goes easy on alcohol. Yeah, right
           • Draco T Bastard 1.4.1.1.1.1

             14 January 2018 at 12:17 pm

             New Zealanders spend about $85 million a week on alcohol, but it costs the country about $5 billion a year in damage.

             I really do hate people who change the measurement when talking about something. It’s poor language skills that can produce misunderstanding.

             That five billion per year equates to about 96 million per week. Which means that we’re seriously subsiding the alcohol industry.
             • McFlock …

               14 January 2018 at 4:30 pm

               Yeah, but it’s spent locally and probably mostly on NZ products (beer and wine), so there’d be a hefty multiplier on the strict sale value for the economic activity. Not to mention exports.

               So the profit/loss ledger could well swing either way.
               • Ed …

                 14 January 2018 at 9:21 pm

                 The NZ wine industry is not as local as you might realise.

                 Author Peter Howland writes in his book Social, Cultural and Economic Impacts of Wine in New Zealand that more than 80 per cent of New Zealand wine production is foreign-owned.

                 https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/65932216/how-the-land-lies-in-foreign-hands

                 Nor is our ‘local’ beer.

                 The maker of Tui beer, which is marketed as an iconic New Zealand brand, is owned by Asia Pacific Breweries, which is being shaken up by a multi-billion-dollar deal.

                 The Dutch beer maker Heineken is spending $S5.1 billion ($NZ5 billion) to buy 40 percent of Asia Pacific Breweries from Singapore-based Fraser and Neave, taking its stake to 82 percent. It will attempt to move to full control.

                 DB, which competes against Lion Breweries, has declined to comment on the ownership shakeup, which was first signalled in July. Lion Breweries is owned by Japan’s Kirin Holdings, which was seen as a rival for Asia Pacific Breweries.

                 http://www.newshub.co.nz/business/db-set-to-come-under-full-heineken-control-2012080414

                 Yes all those profits are going overseas, leaving behind a litany of social damage.
                 Did you watch Nigel Latta’s documentaty on alcohol in New Zealand?
                 I recommend you do so you are more aware of the level of foreign ownership of the liquor industry.

                 Nigel Latta: The Trouble With Booze
                 • McFlock …

                   14 January 2018 at 11:14 pm

                   So it’s just the manufacturing and sale costs that get recirculated. Big whoop, it doesn’t alter the fact that economic activity is more than just the point of sale transaction.
                 • reason …

                   15 January 2018 at 12:23 am

                   No Knighthood for this man.

                   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHI-4NWB8n0

                   Karl du frense in super stupid mode ….. called for Sgt Lawn to shut up or get out of our police force.

                   How dare Sgt Lawn speak about the single biggest generator of police ‘work’ …..

                   Cheap piss was a sign sir john key loved us ……
             • Ed …

               14 January 2018 at 9:13 pm

               Thank you for doing the Maths.
               So we as a society subsidise the international liquor corporations to the tune of #11 million a week.
               No wonder they lobby so hard to control our politicians.
               • Psycho Milt …

                 15 January 2018 at 6:06 am

                 I don’t think you can call calculations involving a made-up number “doing the maths.” It’s more like “making shit up.”
         • Ed 1.4.1.1.2

           14 January 2018 at 9:48 am

           As for solutions, the Law Commission disagreed with you.

           Alcohol in our lives: Curbing the harm

           Sadly, the National Party did not care.

           The Sale and Supply of Alcohol Act 2012 was a pitiful response by the National Party-led government to the monumental review of alcohol in New Zealand by the Law Commission in 2009/2010. All of the most effective recommendations of the Commission’s final report Alcohol in our Lives: Curbing the Harm were ignored. Of particular note, there were no new substantial measures addressing the demand side of alcohol consumption—marketing and pricing.

           https://www.nzma.org.nz/journal/read-the-journal/all-issues/2010-2019/2014/vol-127-no-1401/6270
         • Draco T Bastard 1.4.1.1.3

           14 January 2018 at 12:13 pm

           The people who can’t handle their piss

           It’s not that they can’t handle their piss but that they’ve been taught that getting drunk is the thing to do.

           To change that we need to change our drinking culture away from weekend binge drinking. Many European nations drink more per capita than we do but don’t have the same problems as they don’t drink it all on Saturday night as we do.
           • Psycho Milt 1.4.1.1.3.1

             14 January 2018 at 12:54 pm

             To change that we need to change our drinking culture away from weekend binge drinking.

             “Culture eats strategy for breakfast.” Also, we don’t “need” to do anything in response to people choosing to do things we personally would rather they didn’t.
             • Draco T Bastard …

               14 January 2018 at 1:10 pm

               Also, we don’t “need” to do anything in response to people choosing to do things we personally would rather they didn’t.

               this is another one of those things where people are choosing to do things that harms others and they don’t actually have a right to do that. So, yes, we do actually need to do something about it.

               But it is certainly a cultural change that we need to bring about and that will take years and even decades.
               • Psycho Milt …

                 14 January 2018 at 6:45 pm

                 People doing things that harm others can be taken up directly with the perpetrators.
                 • Draco T Bastard …

                   14 January 2018 at 6:59 pm

                   How if we don’t have rules about it?
                   How if the culture that we have says it’s all right?

                   How are we going to take it up with the perpetrators if we don’t have a way to teach/propagate acceptable behaviour?
                   • One Anonymous Bloke …

                     14 January 2018 at 7:15 pm

                     The perpetrators of NZ’s mental health crisis will never be held to account. All we can do is repair their vandalism.
                   • Psycho Milt …

                     14 January 2018 at 7:27 pm

                     We do have rules about harming others, variously classed as offences, crimes etc. Which is, not coincidentally, also a way to teach/propagate acceptable behaviour.
                   • Draco T Bastard …

                     14 January 2018 at 10:49 pm

                     We do have rules about harming others, variously classed as offences, crimes etc.

                     So, why are you so against refining them?
                   • Psycho Milt …

                     15 January 2018 at 6:02 am

                     The various proposals for “doing something” aren’t aimed at people who harm others, or about refining the existing rules against harming others.
         • Ed 1.4.1.1.4

           14 January 2018 at 9:12 pm

           See ecomaori’s list of damage.
           Not a blight.
           What a joke.
       • Psycho Milt 1.4.1.2

         14 January 2018 at 10:59 am

         Don’t you think alcohol is a blight on our society?

         No. Complaining about people taking recreational drugs is pointless – people like recreational drugs and are going to take them. Also: my experience of alcohol is of skilled craftspeople making excellent drinks that I enjoy drinking, so if anyone wants to declare those fine artists “a blight on society,” I’m going to disagree.
     • Union city greens 1.4.2

       14 January 2018 at 9:42 am

       Not just that PM, but therefore, alcohol is a blight on our society, caused by neo liberalism, so without actually addressing the binge drinking culture, let’s just put the price up and make more profits for the liquor companies.
       • Ed 1.4.2.1

         14 January 2018 at 9:50 am

         The Law Commission made several recommendations.

         Pricing was but one of the solutions proposed.
         Don’t you think alcohol is a blight on our society?
         • Union city greens 1.4.2.1.1

           14 January 2018 at 10:16 am

           It’s not a blight on people like me who drink responsibly.

           There are, of course, those who fail to show common sense, drink to excess, and cause a multitude of costly issues. But a broad broom sweep approach won’t fix a surgical strike issue.

           Hoons and a lot of kiwis in cars drive like shit, causing a multitude of accidents and death each year, a very real societal problem.
           Environmental arguments to one side, you’ll be up for banning under 25s and most drivers from our roads then?
           • Ed 1.4.2.1.1.1

             14 January 2018 at 11:16 am

             I commented it was a blight on society.
             Not you individually.

             I think this thread proves New Zealanders are in denial about the severity of the problem.

             On this site, there are people in denial or disinterested about quite a few things…..

             Alcohol and its impacts on society.
             The welfare of animals in industrial farming.
             A meat diet’s impact on climate change.
             The media’s bias over news from Syria, Ukraine, Yemen.

             Those of us who address these subjects are subject to vile abuse.
             • One Anonymous Bloke …

               14 January 2018 at 11:52 am

               Back to throwing insulting smears around again I see.

               All because you don’t get the nodding dogs you’re looking for. Sob sob.
             • Ad …

               14 January 2018 at 12:03 pm

               Alcohol is a vital part of my life, is a massive part of our economy and a whole bunch less damaging to our land as a productive export than dairy, is a free choice, is regular by local government through democratic hearings about their location, and of course strongly regulated through central government with tax that is fairly up there.

               That’s before you get to enforcement.

               One of the biggest new enforcements is the random drug testing within the Worksafe framework. It really does regulate your life on Friday and Sunday as well as Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. Not a bad thing overall.

               The only way you are going to make a successful argument for more regulation of alcohol is if you set out the benefits with the costs and do an evaluation, rather than just bleating on about the costs.
             • Psycho Milt …

               14 January 2018 at 12:12 pm

               You put forward controversial opinions and are subject to disagreement, not vile abuse.
               • fender …

                 14 January 2018 at 12:41 pm

                 Oh how unfair, Ed played the victim card and you just ruined it for him 😈
               • Ed …

                 14 January 2018 at 4:20 pm

                 It is hardly a controversial opinion to say that alcohol is a blight on our society.
                 It is hardly a controversial opinion to say that animals are treated cruelly in the industrial farming model.

                 And even if you disagree with those opinions, there is no need for abuse.

                 Isn’t this called Open Mike?
                 • Union city greens …

                   14 January 2018 at 4:26 pm

                   Some animals aren’t treated cruelly. For example, James’ free range beasts weren’t. Life of Riley until the butchers knife.
                   • Ed …

                     14 January 2018 at 5:35 pm

                     I wrote “It is hardly a controversial opinion to say that animals are treated cruelly in the industrial farming model.”

                     However, the number of animals living a ‘Life of Riley’ until they are slaughtered is a minuscule fraction.

                     Food is undoubtedly a very contentious issue that divides the American public, with no shortage of opinions on what’s right or wrong, healthy or unhealthy and eco-friendly or unsustainable. However, even when it comes to such a polarizing topic, there is common ground to be found by everyone ranging from vegans to die-hard meat eaters. No one can deny the destructive nature of the force that dominates our food system (i.e. industrial animal agriculture or factory farming). When you take into account the fact that factory farms raise 99.9 percent of chickens for meat, 97 percent of laying hens, 99 percent of turkeys, 95 percent of pigs, and 78 percent of cattle currently sold in the United States, it’s shocking how much time we waste debating each other, rather than trying to actually change the system.

                     https://www.huffingtonpost.com/nil-zacharias/its-time-to-end-factory-f_b_1018840.html
                   • Union city greens …

                     14 January 2018 at 5:41 pm

                     But you’re a reformed smoker type of vegenaut. You’re too emotional to be be relevant.
                     Your road to Damascus experience taints your objectivity.
                   • Ed …

                     14 January 2018 at 5:53 pm

                     I quoted facts.
                   • Union city greens …

                     14 January 2018 at 5:56 pm

                     Whatever gets you through the night, man
                 • One Anonymous Bloke …

                   14 January 2018 at 4:31 pm

                   So why do you smear and abuse people then?
                 • Psycho Milt …

                   14 January 2018 at 5:59 pm

                   It is hardly a controversial opinion to say that alcohol is a blight on our society.

                   Surely the responses you’ve had to that claim on this thread have revealed to you that actually yes it is a controversial opinion.
             • Union city greens …

               14 January 2018 at 12:52 pm

               “I commented it was a blight on society.
               Not you individually.”

               And I answered accordingly, to me personally it’s not a blight, but for some, who have no self control or a modicum of common sense, it’s a big problem. There are solutions, I’m sure, but prohibition won’t work, especially when it’s cheap as chips to home brew or distil.

               As for the rest of your reply, well, as noted above, it’s not vile abuse but disagreement, and yeah, we get it, you want to be the summer bbq killer. 🙄
     • greywarshark 1.4.3

       14 January 2018 at 8:46 pm

       PM
       To make the argument/discussion clearer when you refer to a commenter can you say their name. Your comment was put up today at 9.21 am and finishes after ecomaori’s at 8.35 pm. I guess it is in relation to veutoviper’s but why not make it easier to connect the dots?
       • Psycho Milt 1.4.3.1

         14 January 2018 at 10:00 pm

         I will try to remember to do that. In my defence, when I posted comment 1.4 at 9:21am in response to comment 1 from Ed at 8:09am, it was fairly obvious who I was referring to – I didn’t anticipate the lengthy subthreads that would push my comment well down the page. Not an excuse though, I should have quoted him.
         • greywarshark 1.4.3.1.1

           15 January 2018 at 1:04 pm

           Yes PM
           That is what I have noticed happening to me and have had to resort occasionally to shifting my comment by deleting the original and copying it to where I knew it would sit better.
   • James 1.5

     14 January 2018 at 1:39 pm

     Do you drink at all ?? Ever ?
     • fender 1.5.1

       14 January 2018 at 1:42 pm

       Ed drinks the urine donated by Phillip Ure 😈
       • Ed 1.5.1.1

         14 January 2018 at 4:02 pm

         Further unpleasant insults made against peolple on plant based diets.
         Debate the issue.

         There seems to be a group of people on this site who would happily participate in the witchhunt at Salem.

         I recall the unpleasant treatment of Phil and cv on this site.
         • One Anonymous Bloke 1.5.1.1.1

           14 January 2018 at 4:04 pm

           Pot, meet kettle. Your ad nauseam moralising isn’t a “debate”. When people point out your logical fallacies (which are numerous) you pack a sad, play the victim card and start smearing them.

           Your behaviour is more reminiscent of Peter George than CV and PU.

           Urophagia, by the way, is a trait attributed* to such as Ghandi. What’s the matter Ed, don’t you like being compared to the Mahatma?

           *probably inaccurately.
           • Union city greens 1.5.1.1.1.1

             14 January 2018 at 4:06 pm

             Testify, bro dude.
         • Grey Area 1.5.1.1.2

           14 January 2018 at 7:35 pm

           I think the responses have proved your point but they don’t get it.
           • One Anonymous Bloke 1.5.1.1.2.1

             14 January 2018 at 7:42 pm

             I eat a plant based diet and Ed is insulting me. His attempt to cast himself as an extra in The Crucible is another insult, given the behaviour and temperament of the Salem persecutors.

             So perhaps it’s you who doesn't get it: when Ed either stops abusing people, or stops whinging when he can’t handle the response, I'll stop pointing it out.
             • OncewasTim …

               14 January 2018 at 9:57 pm

               I’m considerably, CONSIDERABLY C O N S I D E R A B L Y more pompous, utterly more wise and wearied, and most extensively more full of myself than ya lot of ya.
               Why I’m so gorgeous I can’t look in a mirror for fear of having an orgasm.
               • Robert Guyton …

                 14 January 2018 at 10:07 pm

                 Lordy, that’s funny, Tim!
2. savenz 2

   14 January 2018 at 8:39 am

   Yet another sign of fake jobs and fake businesses and dodgy work permits. Sarabjit Singh managed by Payal Kumar and employed on a work visa for a low level cafe job by Ben Singh Holdings, in a area of high unemployment.

   The worker was only paid $150 a week in cash. There were no records of the cash payments because the ledger that recorded the payments was “allegedly” stolen during a break-in.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/100532075/dargaville-cafe-worker-awarded-20k-after-exboss-paid-him-just-150-a-week

   No wonder NZ is going down the toilet in productivity and employment practises when this is the ‘new’ culture that has been fostered under the National government.

   Not enough crack down by the new government – they should be urgently reviewing all the work permits given out to check they are not being abused and actually if they are real jobs with real businesses and not this type of carry on.

   Not only that but wrecking our tourist industry when there are so many tourist businesses now operating without knowledge of NZ rules and regulations.

   Stayed at an upmarket hotel in the holidays, same type of thing that is turning NZ into a poorly regulated tourist market seemingly operated entirely by migrant workers. In this instance stayed at a so called upmarket hotel that turned out to have poor cleaning, and poor maintenance of a formerly beautiful hotel on a lake. It appeared to have been bought by an offshore chain and staffed with beaten down migrants who don’t seem to understand purpose or method of hospitality.

   Seems to be the new way to run down NZ image, as part of globalism. A race to the bottom and to exploit local resources and remove local culture and charm to save an offshore $.
3. Robert Guyton 3

   14 January 2018 at 8:46 am

   Our aging population 🙂

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/news/100509084/celebrating-our-southlanders-robert-guyton
   • patricia bremner 3.1

     14 January 2018 at 11:07 am

     Valuable oldies!!
     • Robert Guyton 3.1.1

       14 January 2018 at 1:46 pm

       We are, Patricia! At least, our grandchildren believe so, for now…
   • fender 3.2

     14 January 2018 at 12:45 pm

     That beard should make chimney sweeping a breeze Robert 😀
     • Robert Guyton 3.2.1

       14 January 2018 at 1:45 pm

       Ha!
       Hours of rinsing afterwards though!
4. Ed 4

   14 January 2018 at 11:23 am

   Another article referring to the oncoming financial crash.

   “Many believe 2018 could be the year that country finally does something about its own huge debt problems.

   When just one asset is going up, you explain it by the characteristics of that asset. But if you have an everything bubble, you need to look at the trend behind the trend.

   Cast your mind back a few years and you may recall the expression “quantitative easing”. This is where central banks pumped money into the economy to try to help us recover from the global financial crisis. It happened in the US, Japan and Europe.

   It worked, more or less. But the effect was similar to what you see in a game of Monopoly. The amount of money in circulation kept going up, but the number of assets to buy remained stubbornly still. As anyone who has forked out $600 in Monopoly money for Old Kent Road knows, asset prices go up as the ratio of money to assets goes up.

   Quantitative easing is really just an extreme version of cutting interest rates. In both cases, the idea is to make people borrow more and spend more. So even though Australia didn’t have quantitative easing, low interest rates and the record amounts of household debt Aussies are shouldering represent its part of the everything bubble.

   The problem with loose monetary policy is that while it is supposed to make people do productive things like start a new company, it has a side effect of making them buy assets at crazy prices. If the everything bubble pops, it may turn out that the cure for the global financial crisis is what caused the next crisis.”

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11974827
   • red-blooded 4.1

     14 January 2018 at 2:05 pm

     Ed, that whole article is cast in terms of “if” and what “many (unidentified people) believe”. It’s conjecture for the slow news season.

     Also note this, from the final paragraph: “The exciting thing about this question is we don’t know. Immediate panic is not necessary — it is unlikely each asset class will fall together like synchronised divers. More likely, a decline in one will overlap with a decline in another, creating a long period of uncertainty.”

     You could be right that 2018 will bring a crash, but you seem determined to only see the negative possibilities and seem to simply discount anything that isn’t a disaster scenario.
     • patricia bremner 4.1.1

       14 January 2018 at 4:22 pm

       Yes, well I’m in Ed’s camp on this. Plenty would not believe that 2008 would happen!! But it did. We are at similar pressure points in the system again.
       Of course vested interest bodies call us “chicken little” LOL.
       • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.1.1

         14 January 2018 at 5:46 pm

         Predicting 200 of the last two crashes is easy. Of course they happen, and of course that means there’ll be another. So far, so ‘peak oil theory’.

         Actually predicting them requires a lot more hard work than reading articles in the media. If The Big Short can be believed, Michael Burry hired people to literally pore through all the individual sub-prime mortgage records. Yes, all of them.
         • McFlock 4.1.1.1.1

           14 January 2018 at 5:51 pm

           and even then it was just a more educated bet than the other bets. If the timing had been off, the shorted packages would have increased in price and needed repayment.
           • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.1.1.1.1

             14 January 2018 at 5:58 pm

             I turn my back for an instant and I’m endorsing notions of meritocracy! Shame on me.
             • McFlock …

               14 January 2018 at 6:04 pm

               lol

               it’s all reducing confidence intervals, but never eliminating them. And most people never get enough information to close them all that much in the first place.
         • Andre 4.1.1.1.2

           14 January 2018 at 5:57 pm

           Then there’s survivorship bias …
           • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.1.1.2.1

             14 January 2018 at 6:01 pm

             Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens. That’s my excuse and I’m sticking with it.
       • Ed 4.1.1.2

         14 January 2018 at 5:56 pm

         Thank you. Good to hear there are those who agree with this point of view.

         There are reputable independent economists who are telling us about an oncoming crash.

         Steve Keen

         “The bubble will burst in the next one to two years – there’s been a real acceleration in house prices since 2012, they’ve increased by about 60 percent. But what I’m seeing now is the motivating force for rising house prices is rising mortgage credit. The wind in that bubble is starting to run out.”

         Listen here
         Steve Keen: The coming crash
         

         or read this article
         Steve Keen: The coming crash

         Feeling a bit beleaguered by the way oab and others are now stalking my every post, be it the economy, climate change, animal cruelty….
         • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.1.2.1

           14 January 2018 at 6:12 pm

           You claim to want a discussion, Ed. But when I engaged with your comment at 1, you pretended to agree with me, then went right back to reciting your litany as though our exchange hadn’t happened.

           You then went on to describe the counter arguments as abuse, itself an insult to those who had indulged your alleged desire for discussion.

           While you continue to misrepresent the counter arguments to your narrative, I guarantee you that people will continue to notice and comment on that misrepresentation.

           I’m not surprised you’re feeling beleaguered though. Perhaps if you engaged in better faith you might find people a little less persistent.

           What do you think of my argument that sloppily-presented narratives provide comfort to “the enemy”?*

           *One Two, please try and discover what inverted commas are for before your knee starts jerking at “the enemy”.
           • Drowsy M. Kram 4.1.1.2.1.1

             14 January 2018 at 9:33 pm

             “I’m not surprised you’re feeling beleaguered though.”

             Astute, AOB. If I’d received these responses on ‘Open Mike’ today, I’d feel the same:

             “a sop to moralising curtain-twitchers”

             “All because you don’t get the nodding dogs you’re looking for. Sob sob.”

             “So why do you smear and abuse people then?”

             “Pot, meet kettle. Your ad nauseam moralising isn’t a “debate”. When people point out your logical fallacies (which are numerous) you pack a sad, play the victim card and start smearing them.”

             “What’s the matter Ed, don’t you like being compared to the Mahatma?”

             The antipathy of AOB (aided by BM) towards Ed’s comments on today’s Open Mike is painfully obvious. Thankfully, they refrain from personal abuse.
5. eco maori 5

   14 January 2018 at 11:50 am

   Another day in paradise Kia ora Graham Norton I watch your show guite regularly
   Now you know I’m backing Joseph Parker camp to win. Well everyone knows this fact we’re Kiwis after all I like my pies to we can’t all have the time to think about our physique if I did one knows that my Maori genetic would easily rip up. I like to watch Jimmy Barns son David Campbell on sky news. I know Iv got a big following in Australia to many thanks to all the people around OUR WORLD For your support. I know that the house that Mama raised me in Gisborne and the one buy the Waiapu river will be oneday a place that a lot of people will visit to honour me. PS to the red headed sandfly you smoke you like stake to go pinch off rich people you dick ECO doesn’t miss anything and do not kid yourself that you can pull a trick with out me noticeing. Ka kite ano
6. Kay 6

   14 January 2018 at 1:34 pm

   On the topic of suspicious work visas (savenz @2 ), could someone please enlighten me?

   I just had 3 days of dealing with a couple of tradies, I’ll spare the details, a major complaint has already be made to the Property Manager and is being dealt with. But I’m somewhat curious about how one of them is allowed to be working here, ie what visa?

   Main contractor originally from a South-East Asian country. His younger off-sider, same nationality but literally doesn’t speak a word of English, and isn’t exactly even close to being ‘skilled” in his trade (it’s painting btw)

   So…are painters a skill shortage category?
   Could he be sponsored here by family if they can say there’s a job for him and that’s a way in for residency?
   Family reunification scheme of some sort? (It’s not a country involving refugees)
   Genuinely ignorant on the matters, and curious if anyone knows about these things.
   • BM 6.1

     14 January 2018 at 1:47 pm

     Could be here on a tourist visa and is working illegally?
   • OncewasTim 6.2

     14 January 2018 at 2:01 pm

     I could hazard a guess…and it would be that the younger guy is being paid a pittance and not technically entitled to be working here.
     He’s probably also been bullshitted to, and found that on arrival, things are not what was promised.
     Now that he’s here though, the choices are either to beg, or to do whatever work is available.

     Btw…I hope you’ve not succumbed to the latest exploitative sector involving immigrant slave labour (home renovation). They’re now even trying to sell franchises
     • Kay 6.2.1

       14 January 2018 at 3:57 pm

       @OWT, that’s what I was a bit worried about. I’m not even totally convinced the guy was being given adequate breaks for 10hr day work.

       I’m not sure what- if anything I can do about this. I’m just the renter, these guys are contractors used by the property managers so I don’t get to pick and choose. I get the idea the latter has known the former for some time.
       • OncewasTim 6.2.1.1

         14 January 2018 at 5:02 pm

         it’s a hard decision but it were me, I’d try and get a phone #, then get in touch with somebody such as the Immigrant Workers Association.
         Until such time as MoBIE/INZ start caring more about the victims of exploitation rsther than those doing the exploiting, I wouldn’t go near them
       • Craig H 6.2.1.2

         14 January 2018 at 9:33 pm

         Get the name of the contractor business and report them to MBIE or to Crime Stoppers.
         • OncewasTim 6.2.1.2.1

           14 January 2018 at 10:16 pm

           Whereupon the contractor may, or may not be prosecuted-depending on resources available, and the victim will likely be deported, whilst the ripoff artist will not lose his recently acquired PR, and will simply move on to the next.
           Meanwhile, the consultants, many of whom have vested and financial interest in the racket will continue to get their percentage.
           It’s a nice idea @Craig H, but unless something has radically changed since last September, it doesn’t quite work like that or as you intend
           • Craig H 6.2.1.2.1.1

             15 January 2018 at 1:32 pm

             Still better than doing nothing at all.
   • patricia bremner 6.3

     14 January 2018 at 3:29 pm

     Kay, in Aus tradies need a blue card to work, and have to produce it. This can be checked, so you don’t get your situation happening. Huge fines ensue for cheats and employers. NZ needs that to protect the public.
     • savenz 6.3.1

       14 January 2018 at 4:50 pm

       Sounds like a good idea patricia bremner – of course photo id should be used so people aren’t using the same ID number.
       • patricia bremner 6.3.1.1

         14 January 2018 at 7:47 pm

         Yes sorry I didn’t mention it has photo ID.
   • savenz 6.4

     14 January 2018 at 4:28 pm

     @Kay – welcome to a world where exploitation seems to be rife. Firstly exploitation of work permits, then getting more people in who are either working illegally or have a fake permit or even legitimate one, but speak no English so therefore hard to know what is going on.

     Then the property manager is employing them probably through another firm that organises the work who charge a percentage fee, the property agency is probably charging around 10% on top of that for their labour to the owner of the rental. Being two people there there will be two labour charges even if one can’t do the job and is being trained, or the supervisor one leaves the other one in charge and left to their own devices.

     So simple work turns into hundreds or thousands of dollars pretty quickly more than it should, and often a very bad job which takes longer than it should and generates complaints from all concerned. People forced to work long hours for a pittance don’t tend to do a very good job or if they do, it catches up on them and they start having accidents and needing ACC.

     The terrible shortages of rentals are also related to the burgeoning costs of being able to get legitimate labour who can do a good job without it being some sort of scam rather than doing a decent days work for a decent wage.

     I like the German system where tradespeople have to guarantee their work for 10 years and faulty work can actually lead to jail.

     The NZ way, seems to be to do as little as possible, for as much money as possible with as many people as possible taking a cut along the way, even for very small amounts of un or semi-skilled work and the end worker is on minimum wages or less and often incompetent.

     On the building front even when you insure work through master builders or whatever, you still do not get a real guarantee that the work will be fixed. So you essentially pay before hand, an extra fee, in the knowledge the builder will make mistakes and have to fix them and it can be a lot of work even getting the work fixed even with the insurance that you pay for.

     We have a system in NZ that exploits everyday in the construction industry. That is why I don’t think that we can simply build these affordable houses to stem the shortage of houses.

     Even the houses being built under the NZ system are faulty or have faulty materials even before you put forward the constant stream of contractors and sub contractors and the amount of cheap labour being utilised at expensive rates.
   • Craig H 6.5

     14 January 2018 at 9:36 pm

     Standard work visas include working holiday visas, partner visas ( both of NZers and of work visa holders), work visas for students who have passed their courses, or even student visas.
     • OncewasTim 6.5.1

       14 January 2018 at 10:19 pm

       I get that you are well in tune with the theory.
7. OncewasTim 7

   14 January 2018 at 3:16 pm

   Oh dear!!!! Sir John Key has been caught up in that false missile attack alert in Hawaii!
   How ABSOLUTELY HORRIFIC.
   THANKFULLY Granny has been in contact apparently, and we can all rest assured that he didn’t panic.
   Wow! That’s a big load off my mind.
   • OncewasTim 7.1

     14 January 2018 at 3:57 pm

     Then we’re told ‘A man shoots dead parents…..’ after a video game, only to find out they were actually alive and he killed them
     • Union city greens 7.1.1

       14 January 2018 at 3:59 pm

       Ah yes, video games me do it. But never seen anyone dressed up like mario twatting mushrooms and turtles with a hammer.
   • eco maori 7.2

     14 January 2018 at 9:48 pm

     shonky key is a neolibreal in reality he would have shit his pants and been trying to get the first flight out of there with tears running down his face he Hawii can have the bigot we don’t want his type in New Zealand .Some people say NZ is not paradise well caste your eyes around our world and find better and I will prove you wrong.
     Ana to kai
8. Ed 8

   14 January 2018 at 4:15 pm

   Rachel Stewart on twitter.

   “So, we all know in our hearts that rodeo is wrong. But with Michael Laws speaking up for it, we now know it’s got to be even wronger-er than we originally thought.”

   https://mobile.twitter.com/RFStew
9. joe90 9

   14 January 2018 at 5:07 pm

   thread

   A shithole is an astronomically wealthy nation that refuses to provide healthcare for all people.— William C. (@williamcson) January 12, 2018

   https://twitter.com/williamcson/status/951663586329407488
10. Ed 10

    14 January 2018 at 6:21 pm

    As the Herald would say ‘weird weather.’

    Invercargill has hottest day on record at 32.3°C

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/348068/invercargill-has-hottest-day-on-record-at-32-point-3-degreesc
11. Ed 11

    14 January 2018 at 6:35 pm

    Not sure if anyone shared this before.
12. eco maori 12

    14 January 2018 at 9:49 pm

    shonky key is a neolibreal in reality he would have shit his pants and been trying to get the first flight out of there with tears running down his face he Hawii can have the bigot we don’t want his type in New Zealand .Some people say NZ is not paradise well caste your eyes around our world and find better and I will prove you wrong.
    Ana to kai
13. Ed 13

    14 January 2018 at 10:33 pm

    We are in a lot of trouble.
    Unless significant action is taken by governments and people in the next 10 years, extinction beckons.
    Take action today to save the planet and life on it.

    I quote from the Guardian.
    We are on a Planet that is heating up quickly.

    “The years 2017, 2016 and 2015 will make up the three hottest years on record for the planet. But there’s no convincing some people.

    When the global temperature readings are in for 2017, it’s going to be a very hard sell for climate-science deniers: 2017 will likely be ranked either side of 2015 as the second or third hottest year on record, with 2016 still in top spot.

    The hottest five-year period recorded in the modern era will be the one we’ve just had.

    Communities around the world, and the flora and fauna we share it with, feel the effects of that steady rise through extreme weather, droughts, heatwaves, shifting rains, melting ice and rising sea levels.

    Levels of carbon dioxide from burning fossil fuels, deforestation and land clearing keep climbing.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/planet-oz/2017/dec/19/checkmate-how-do-climate-science-deniers-predictions-stack-up
14. Ed 14

    14 January 2018 at 10:39 pm

    Trump’s America.
    Let’s not hear any more hypocritical lectures or abuse to Iran, Syria, Russia, Haiti or the continent of Africa.
    The US is a failed state.

    “BALTIMORE — Overnight, Imamu Baraka was walking past a Baltimore hospital when he noticed something he says he’ll never forget.
    The hospital’s security guards had just wheeled a patient to a bus stop, and in the freezing temperatures they left her there. The only thing she had on was a hospital gown.
    “It’s about 30 degrees out here right now,” Baraka says in a recording of the encounter. “Are you OK, ma’am? Do you need me to call the police?” he asks.
    It’s called “patient dumping” and it doesn’t just happen in Baltimore. In 2007, “60 Minutes” investigated the practice of removing homeless patients from Los Angeles hospitals and leaving them downtown.”

    http://cbsn.ws/2qWzdvt
15. eco maori 15

    15 January 2018 at 4:00 am

    Trump is playing a game with all US people of the world that alam warning that scared the shit out of Hawaii was known accident. You know why I say that because that is what neoliberalism does they play games with other people lives like what the sandflys are doing to me and my whano. But when things are Fucked up like the world at the moment I can see a thew thing in play from trump around our world. He is a racist bigot it will turn to shit fast with the way he is running the white house. Mother nature and mother earth does not like whats happening in the world that’s why Americans are getting hammer by them. You can’t restart the game donald it you fuck the world. It amazed me to see that a man like that could get the controls to one of the most powerful countries in the world . You know what it amazed donald and his family that he won look at the night they won they were all gobsmacked mouths open they couldn’t believe that donald won an never could the world. This cannot be allowed to happen again WTF. KIA KAHA

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