Open mike 14/10/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 14th, 2022 - 175 comments
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175 comments on “Open mike 14/10/2022 ”

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  1. Ed 1
    14 October 2022 at 7:51 am

    Clare Daly is a courageous women and this is a great speech.

    "The war in Ukraine is quickly escalating into a wider horror and from what I can see practically nobody in this chamber is doing anything to prevent it.

    "In fact, most people seem to get off on the fact that it's escalating, And at this precise moment, of course, as usual, the voices challenging the rush to war are attacked and silenced, smeared as traitors, cronies, Putin puppets, Kremlin stooges, Russian agents."

    "Frankly, it's pathetic, and I don't make the comparison lightly, but the crudeness and cynicism of these slurs coming from mainstream E.U. parties might as well have been written by Hermann Göring, who infamously said that even though people never want war, they can be brought to war with threats and smears."

    "This house should be ashamed of this debate, Words are being twisted, meanings subverted, and the truth turned on its head. Opposing the horrible madness of war is not anti-European, it's not anti-Ukrainian, it's not pro-Russian: it's common sense.

    "The working class of Europe has nothing to gain from this war and everything to lose. And I find it laughable that those calling for arms to Ukraine never call for arms for the people of Palestine, or for the people of Yemen.

    "Unlike you, I oppose all war. I want it stopped. I make no apology for that."

    • mikesh 1.1
      14 October 2022 at 9:28 am

      The war may well not be in Europe's interest, but America seems to want to keep it going, and European politicians seem to have a preference for kowtowing to the Americans.

      The latter's main interest seems to lie in clobbering Russia or, rather, getting the Ukrainians to clobber Russia on America's behalf. I don't think they really care about the damage that's being done to Ukraine along the way.

    • Stephen D 1.2
      14 October 2022 at 9:37 am

      If people keep playing the what about America card, you will have Putin marching across the Baltic States, the steppes, and the Balkans.

    • SPC 1.3
      14 October 2022 at 9:46 am

      Is bringing "working class" into the debate the way to find common cause with other Euro MP's and find a diplomatic alternative? Or to work with others on the left in Europe to exploit a winter of discontent for political advantage (competing with nationalists in a reprise of the 1930’s)?

    • higherstandard 1.4
      14 October 2022 at 9:57 am

      Clare Daly appears to be a prime example of a useful idiot for the likes of Putin and others.

      In denial about the malaysian airliner that was shot down

      https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/tensions-rise-over-mick-wallace-s-and-clare-daly-s-views-1.4610010

      In denial about Putin's intentions to invade the Ukraine.

      https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/russia-s-mobilisation-along-ukraine-border-is-clearly-defensive-wallace-and-daly-say-1.4786363

      Voted against condemning Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

      https://www.world-today-news.com/see-the-only-meps-who-voted-against-condemning-the-russian-invasion-of-ukraine-russia/

      Plus she has previous form as a complete numpty

      https://www.thejournal.ie/clare-daly-mick-wallace-iraq-5403434-Apr2021/

      • SPC 1.4.1
        14 October 2022 at 10:43 am

        The Iranian backed Shia militias in Iraq (such as the one she visited) have been imposing a reign of terror on liberals/secularists in south Iraq – with rumours of Teheran hit lists.

      • mikesh 1.4.2
        14 October 2022 at 3:48 pm

        Typical. Instead of addressing her message, you bag the messenger.

        • higherstandard 1.4.2.1
          14 October 2022 at 4:50 pm

          Always important to identify a cumberworld who's being put forward as someone who's opinion should be noted.

          • Ed 1.4.2.1.1
            14 October 2022 at 4:53 pm

            So, if you won’t accept Clare Daly as your messenger…….

            Will you accept Chris Hedges?

            Or Noam Chomsky?

            Or John Mearsheimer?

      • Ed 1.4.3
        14 October 2022 at 4:03 pm

        Won't accept Clare Daly as your messenger ?

        What about Chris Hedges?

        Peter Oborne?

        Noam Chomsky?

        Richard Wolff?

        Tulsi Gabbard?

    • pat 1.5
      14 October 2022 at 10:06 am

      There are two ways to end the war in Ukraine …Russia leaves or the Ukrainian's give up.

      Politicians, activists or publics outside those two countries dont make those decisions.

      • Ed 1.5.1
        14 October 2022 at 2:44 pm

        There is a third way.

        A negotiated peace.

        • uncookedselachimorpha 1.5.1.1
          14 October 2022 at 4:34 pm

          With Russia committing ubiquitous warcrimes and never keeping to any agreement, ever?

          Not gonna happen.

          • Ed 1.5.1.1.1
            14 October 2022 at 4:50 pm

            A cursory study of history shows peace can be negotiated after war.

            You do realise the consequences for the globe if we do not take this route?

            "Opposing the horrible madness of war is not anti-European, it's not anti-Ukrainian, it's not pro-Russian: it's common sense."

            Have you read or listened to Mearsheimer, Chomsky, Wolff, Hedges, Oborne?

        • pat 1.5.1.2
          14 October 2022 at 5:17 pm

          Thats covered by the second option

      • mikesh 1.5.2
        14 October 2022 at 3:50 pm

        Supplying military hardware to one side, and imposing sanctions on the other. Oh, they are making the decisions alright.

    • uncookedselachimorpha 1.6
      14 October 2022 at 1:15 pm

      Actually, the Ukrainians fighting to defeat an unprovoked and murderous invasion by Russia are the courageous ones.

      The alternative to arming Ukraine, is allowing Russians to continue to loot, rape and murder. All Russia has to do to end it all – is leave Ukraine. Ukrainians can't leave Ukraine.

      • mikesh 1.6.1
        14 October 2022 at 4:00 pm

        All Russia has to do to end it all – is leave Ukraine. Ukrainians can't leave Ukraine.

        The Russians have no incentive for leaving. The ball, as they say, is really in the Ukrainians court. And the Russians have not played the nuclear card. Yet.

        • higherstandard 1.6.1.1
          14 October 2022 at 4:52 pm

          Yep it's tough for the russians on the ground in the Ukraine, be killed by ukrainian forces and artillery or be shot by your own officers and secret police for escaping back into Russia.

    • Ed 1.7
      14 October 2022 at 2:36 pm

      Don't accept Clare Daly as your messenger ?

      What about Chris Hedges and Peter Oborne?

      Rulers divide the world into 'worthy' and 'unworthy' victims; those we are allowed to pity, such as Ukrainians enduring the hell of modern warfare, and those whose suffering is minimized, dismissed, or ignored. (Yemen, Palestine)

    • Stuart Munro 1.8
      14 October 2022 at 8:13 pm

      See what the states that suffered Soviet occupation think of her self-styled 'common sense'. Capitulation to Putin by giving him the Sudetenlands of Crimea, Donbas, and Luhansk, will not buy peace. Anything but.

      • weston 1.8.1
        14 October 2022 at 10:12 pm

        Actually Stuart negotiations underway back in april showed every sign of being concluded satisfactorily until the direct interference of both the uk in the form of borris and america in the form of biden stifled the initiative .

        This conflict began as a civil war between Ukrainians divided by historical grievances and differing political ideologies .Approximately fourteen thousand ukrainians died by their brothers hand mostly but not all in the donbass .

        America has sought to drive this wedge deeper in order to foster its own interests which in this case are about weakening the russians and securing markets for its own energy companies i dont think it cares a fuck about Ukraine or the EU for that matter witness the destruction of the Nordstream pipelines .

        Parroting CNN talking points is not an argument Stuart .

        • Stuart Munro 1.8.1.1
          15 October 2022 at 8:27 pm

          Parroting CNN talking points is not an argument Stuart .

          I suppose the consequence of forming opinions based on the facts Weston, of reaching similar conclusions with properly informed media, could never occur to you wretched dregs and dupes that subsist on the saccharine and fact-free diet of Kremlin propaganda.

          Civil war my arse – Russia conducted a lengthy insurgency in the Donbas, culminating in the downing of MH17. Genuine independence movements are conducted with small arms, not Russian tank brigades with dedicated BUK air defenses manned by Russian officers on 'special leave'.

          You ignorant muppets do your cause no good by your ill-conceived attacks on everybody better informed than yourselves.

  2. Ad 2
    14 October 2022 at 7:52 am

    My projection is that out of the entire January 6th hearings there will be no recommendation of charges to DoJ. Simply insufficient causality between White House-Operatives-Militants to withstand Federal charges going into Court.

    Fox and AON and Telegraph are going to have a field day.

    Good old George Conway says the shortest route between Donald Trump and an orange jumpsuit is the classified documents route.

    6 weeks to mid-term vote they aren't going to get the slam dunk the Democrats needed.

  3. Jimmy 3
    14 October 2022 at 9:03 am

    Doing a review of parliament bullying after Mallard has left should show a definite improvement.

    I do find it ironic that one of the few MP's to actually come to physical blows with another, and also falsely accuse a staffer of rape actually initiates the review of workplace culture!

    Parties promise cooperation as Speaker orders review of Parliament's workplace culture (msn.com)

    "Parliament's culture had improved since the last Francis report largely because Rurawhe has replaced Mallard as Speaker, Seymour said."

    • Bearded Git 3.1
      14 October 2022 at 9:56 am

      I went to an election meeting where Seymour was speaking in 2020.

      When he suggested that many of the District Plan rules should be ignored in order that development could go ahead willy-nilly I questioned him on this explaining that the DP rules are there to protect landscapes from inappropriate development.

      He attacked me, calling me a busybody and saying something to the effect that I should STFU.

      So he is something of an expert on bullying.

    • Peter 3.2
      14 October 2022 at 10:38 am

      Is Seymour's demeanour towards the new Speaker the same as it was to the previous one? Or is the new Speaker's way of handling Seymour different?

      Mallard engaged with Seymour in a way that reminded me of two fox terriers playing around. Mallard didn't say, "Sit down, you're just being a little twerp." As he should have.

      Of course if that had happened Seymour would have 'crying to mummy' about being bullied.

    • I Feel Love 4.1
      14 October 2022 at 11:23 am

      You know there's a difference from trans people & drag people? There's also a big difference between drag for adults & drag for kids? & that over in the UK there has been drag in Pantos for decades (it's basically what pantomime is FFS)? Everyday there's this GC bullshit on the Standard & it's really fucking boring (it's why there's rarely engagement except from the usual few who agree with each other). I took my kids to watch the drag people read at the library a few years back & my kids & others there LOVED IT! It was a lot of fun.

      • Visubversa 4.1.1
        14 October 2022 at 12:29 pm

        There certainly has been crossdressing in Pantomime for decades, but it is quite different to drag. It is however, the same sexist shite. The portrayal of the Pantomime Dame (played by a man) is of an older woman, unattractive and frequently sexually frustrated. They are a figure of fun. The portrayal of the "hero" (played by a woman) is of an attractive young man who always gets the girl. Any basic feminist analysis shows what this really is.

        Traditional Drag was (and still is) a sexualised caricature of femaleness done by a man. It was very much adult entertainment. It deals in stereotypes for entertainment purposed in almost exactly the same way that the Black and White Minstrel Show offered stereotypes of African Americans. Womanface should be no more acceptable than Blackface or Brownface.

        There seems to be a sudden push to present Drag Queens as entertainment for children. The question should be what is actually the reason behind this in terms of the breaking down of safeguarding and the drive to get young people to reject the evidence of their eyes and ears.

      • Anker 4.1.2
        14 October 2022 at 12:31 pm

        There is little engagement with the GC stuff on this site (although initially there was). The gender ideology folk were not able to provide adequate arguements and their responses, including the usual banal phrases "trans women are real women" (which of course due to biology, simply isn't true) didn't cut it with the arguements GC were able to put forward. Then there were examples such as the pathetic response to the Wi spa incident by those who seeek to shut GC arguements down. The Trans Rights Activists, including on this site, ran with the spin that it was a hoax (it wasn't. The transgender who entered the women's section of the spa was a sex offender and was arrested). But no apology for this from the trans rights activists on this site for getting it wrong. So given the responses are so poor to what are good solid arguements from the GC women on this site, I am not surprized your side has stopped engaging.

        Yes I went to pantos as a kid. The "dames" as they were called wore street wear, nothing at all sexualized. The shows were based on children's fairytales. Nor was their talk sexualized.

        I can't comment on drag shows here, but if you watch the video Weka posted you will hear the women is talking about quite sexualized drag performers being passed of as "family friendly". This is in the US.

        You may be unaware with what is happening in the US and the UK where drag performers at schools very often perform quite sexualized dances and in risque costumes. You might ask yourself if you would be ok with young children seeing this. I am not.

        Drag aren't trans? Well I thought cross dressers came under the trans umbrella? The drag karaoke that was held at Health New Zealand for staff was provided by the rainbow network as part of their diversity and inclusion programme. Does this now mean we have have LBGTQI and D?

        I am sorry you are bored by the GC comments. I find most websites I visit have things posted I am not interested in, e.g. Stuff and NZ Herald. As they say, that's life. Although occasssionally on a whim when I read things, I get to find out stuff I didn't know. this could be the case for you.

        • swordfish 4.1.2.1
          14 October 2022 at 5:28 pm

          .

          True of Wokedom / the Critical Theory Cult in general … when comprehensively challenged, they appear utterly bereft of argument … just fingers in ears & mindlessly repeat the same old slogans & the same old desperate smears.

          Basically a quasi-religious cult in which upper-middle & PMC narcissists can pursue power / control / self-interest … while posing as unusually morally virtuous (LOL) … they’re total frauds & bear little resemblance to the traditional Social Democratic Left with its emphasis on universalism, egalitarianism, individual human rights, equality under law, liberal democratic norms, free expression of ideas (& indeed personal humility & self-sacrifice … sooooo much in contrast with our Woke chums).

      • weka 4.1.3
        14 October 2022 at 12:51 pm

        The irony of you giving me a wee lecture about the difference between trans and drag and then making out there is no difference between drag and panto.

        I didn't say anything about trans people, but since you brought it up, the trans umbrella includes drag queens. This means that gender ideology equates trans with people with GD, drag queens/kings, cross dressers, AGP, a range of fetishes, transsexuals, GNC people, NB people, gender benders and so on. Which you would know if you valued knowledge more than your ideology or paid any kind of attention at all.

        If you can't make a coherent political argument, then scroll on by. Your antipathy for women's rights and child safeguarding is really fucking boring without any attempt at analysis other than superficial reactionary 'i don't like this, you're terrible'.

        This image is from the ACLU.

        https://www.governor.nh.gov/sites/g/files/ehbemt336/files/documents/20200810-palana-belken-pronouns-aclu.pdf

        • weka 4.1.3.1
          14 October 2022 at 12:56 pm

          Maybe when you think of the word trans you think of transsexuals like Georgina Beyer. That hasn't been true for a long time. I've been consistent that the problems aren't with trans people, but with gender identity ideology. I won't be put into an ideological box by you. You can either scroll by or you can engage like everyone does here on any topic any day of the week.

        • Visubversa 4.1.3.2
          14 October 2022 at 1:48 pm

          One of the most disgusting things about this ACLU "umbrella" is its weaponising of the medical conditions relating to what used to be called "intersex" but is now referred to a DSD or VSD – differences or variations of sex development. These fall into about 40 known syndromes which are diagnosable with a chromosome test. They are not extra sexes and they do not change sex. They are variations on male, or variations on female. This is shown by the fact that those who are fertile (and many are not) produce either sperm or eggs. There are no intermediate or additional gametes. The addition of the "I" for "intersex" to the alphabet swamp is just a desperate attempt to bolster the pretense that sex in humans is some sort of spectrum rather than being bi-modal, and also to provide some sort of physiological explanations for the purely psychogical phenomena like bodily dysphoria, internalised homophobia and autogynephilia that are found in today's Trans Rights movements. The ACLU also supports chemical castration of children and young people with so called "puberty blockers" which are the same types of drugs which the ACLU also condemns when used on sex offenders.

    • Sabine 4.2
      14 October 2022 at 4:36 pm

      If sex work is work, and sex work is the work for many in the future no matter their identity and presentation then this makes perfect sense.

      We used to teach math, writing, typing etc to prepare children for the future, now we show them how to earn money in the sex work industry

      If you want to normalise sex work – any sex work – as work then this is they way to do it.

  5. Peter 5
    14 October 2022 at 10:15 am

    The mayhem and human tragedy in the US withdrawal from Afghanistan was put into context this morning in the Jan 6 hearing.

    In an act of petulance when he knew he was out of power, that he was a loser and was to be seen by the world as a loser, Donald Trump dictated that the withdrawal should happen immediately.

    Or course the total amount of ensuing misery was nowhere near what he personally was going through and was facing, about to go through.

    If courts ruled he had to hand over a particular house to others rather than keep it himself, he would burn it down with them all inside. And he would relish the screams as they perished

    • alwyn 5.1
      14 October 2022 at 12:15 pm

      What on earth are you talking about? The Trump Administration made an agreement with the Taliban to withdrew troops by May 1, 2021. That was made in February 2020, long before Trump lost the election.

      When Biden took over there were still thousands of US troops in the country. Biden ordered their withdrawal by 31 August 2021, even though it was obvious that the Taliban were not observing the conditions of the withdrawal. That was long after Trump had gone.

      https://www.factcheck.org/2021/08/timeline-of-u-s-withdrawal-from-afghanistan/

      Both Trump and Biden are responsible for the final debacle. It wasn't all Trimp's doing.

  6. X Socialist 6
    14 October 2022 at 10:24 am

    Remember ' Black Lives Matter?'' I can't forget it. I had family members protesting in solidarity.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/418971/thousands-of-nzers-march-for-black-lives-matter

    In America millions were donated to the cause. And it looks like only one person asked '' where was the money going?'' Apparently some went to the LGBT community. Then there's the house in Laurel Canyon owned by Patrisse Cullors. Laurel Canyon was/is a famous area for musos and the arty crowd. It also hosted the famous Wonderland murders that involved porn star Big John Holmes. But there's one thing Laurel Canyon isn't famous for – black people.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrisse_Cullors

    It looks like people the world over were scammed, both emotionally and financially. The old adage of '' follow the money'' couldn't be truer in this case. I wonder if NZ has an equivalent situation?

    • Adrian 6.1
      14 October 2022 at 10:33 am

      The Tamatis

    • Visubversa 6.2
      14 October 2022 at 12:34 pm

      I would want a better source for this that Faux News which is an entertainment channel devoted to misinformation and downright lies.

      • X Socialist 6.2.1
        14 October 2022 at 1:08 pm

        Fair enough – Candice Owens. She's a great source. Your criticism is weak, especially given this is America. Litigation over real or perceived defamation is the normal modus operandi.

    • Radical Alternative 6.3
      14 October 2022 at 5:19 pm

      At the end of the day, Black Lives Matter was just the hashtag that took off. There's a bunch of groups that use the name, and they all seem to hate each other. I guess you could say it shows the limits of activism as it currently exists, but as far as NGOs go I don't think it's a particularly bad case.

  7. Anne 7
    14 October 2022 at 10:27 am

    Agree with Professor Micheal Baker:

    “We have alert level systems for fires, for earthquakes, for all these other threats. I think we need one again for the pandemic."

    Baker said such a system could have simple measures that kick in when cases reach a certain level, such as mask mandates for public transport.

    "I think at the moment, unfortunately, government and other groups are quite worried as being seen to do anything systematic.

    "I think we need that leadership with the pandemic."

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/476643/we-need-that-leadership-baker-calls-for-return-to-covid-alert-level-system

    The last thing this country should do is kowtow to the VFF loons and naysayers who have done enough damage as it is.

    • Andy 7.1
      14 October 2022 at 10:34 am

      The VFF "loons" who have been highlighting the problems with the jab injured and the lack of any testing by pharma for transmission of the virus?

      It must be hard being a "progressive" these days, showing undying allegiance to one of the most corrupt industries on the planet

      • SPC 7.1.1
        14 October 2022 at 10:53 am

        lack of any testing by pharma for transmission of the virus

        I have no idea what this means.

        • Andy 7.1.1.1
          14 October 2022 at 10:59 am

          It means that Pfizer did no testing on the mRNA's ability to stop transmission of the virus, as admitted by the Pfizer exec in the European parliament when questions by Dutch MEP Rob Roos.

          The premise of the passport system was, presumably, to stop transmission of the virus

          • Shanreagh 7.1.1.1.1
            14 October 2022 at 11:18 am

            Masking, physical distancing reduces transmission. Vaccines reduce the chance of dying or having Covid very badly that it affects later life.

            Please read up on the Swiss chees model.

            https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/health/coronavirus-swiss-cheese-infection-mackay.html

            VFF nutters, sorry people, seem to have a fixation with vaccination

          • SPC 7.1.1.1.2
            14 October 2022 at 12:17 pm

            The purpose was to stop the person vaccinated being infected, and that would be what they tested the efficacy of.

            If a significantly lower proportion of those vaccinated (than those not) were infected, of course the passport system was valid.

            The purpose of which was to enable an end to lockdowns and have the health system still cope.

            • Andy 7.1.1.1.2.1
              14 October 2022 at 12:24 pm

              "If a significantly lower proportion of those vaccinated (than those not) were infected, of course the passport system was valid."

              So is there any evidence that your "if" condition is true in this case? It does seem that almost everybody has had the bug, and vx status seems to me anyway very little to do with it.

              • SPC …
                14 October 2022 at 12:29 pm

                The passport system worked fine in Europe in 2021.

                Recent widespread infection with omicron in 2022 does not change history.

        • Incognito 7.1.1.2
          14 October 2022 at 11:21 am

          Neither does Andy, obviously. He seems to think that because they didn’t formally test for it in the initial clinical trials it didn’t stop transmission at all. Needless to say, Andy is wrong.

          • Andy 7.1.1.2.1
            14 October 2022 at 11:30 am

            "Andy is wrong".

            They didn't test for the jab stopping transmission, as admitted by the Pfizer exec in the European parliament.

            it's quite possible that the jab does stop transmission, result in erections in men (as per other Pfizer products that had unexpected side effects) or make you run faster, but that doesn't take away the fact that Pfizer didn't test for the jab stopping transmission of the virus, which I presume was the reason all these posters went up in London and other places stating that we are taking the jab to "save granny" or whatever, because the assumption was that the jab would stop the virus, which the drug company didn't test for.

          • AB 7.1.1.2.2
            14 October 2022 at 11:59 am

            Yup – your ability to transmit the virus is definitely reduced if you don't have the virus in the first place. And quite possibly it is also reduced if you have a mild case and are shedding less virus into the air. So effective vaccines do reduce aggregate transmission at a population level.

            But if you are a vaccinated individual and get the virus anyway, you can still transmit it. I wonder how many vaccines can actually prevent this phenomenon – once the virus has escaped the vaccine and infected the individual, how would we expect it to then stop that individual from transmitting the virus?

            The supposed 'problem' here is actually one of vaccine escape by the virus – not some nefariousness by the pharma industry. The real problem though, is that our conservative/RW friends struggle to think at the whole population level, because that would be 'collectivism' (bad!)

            • Andy 7.1.1.2.2.1
              14 October 2022 at 12:10 pm

              "So effective vaccines do reduce aggregate transmission at a population level."

              which Pfizer didn't test for.

              maybe actually testing for something might be a good idea before forcing everyone to take the medication based on the assumption that the aforesaid premise for taking the medication is backed up by science?

              After all, a vaccine for a coronavirus has never been developed before Covid. It is not unreasonable to question them, in my view.

              • AB …
                14 October 2022 at 12:18 pm

                Can I give you something I don't have?

              • SPC …
                14 October 2022 at 12:21 pm

                Until omicron, it did significantly reduce transmission – real world trial result.

                • Andy …
                  14 October 2022 at 12:24 pm

                  Link please?

                  • SPC …
                    14 October 2022 at 12:33 pm

                    If you think transmission was higher, post vaccination and before omicron, you find a link.

                    • Andy …
                      14 October 2022 at 12:47 pm

                      You made the assertion, not me.

                      Every time I make an assertion, I'm asked for a link, which I have learnt to provide.

                      Is this clear? You made the assertion that the mRNA jab reduced transmission until Omicron, which I admit I never heard before, so a link would be helpful.

                      You have provided no link or evidence that your assertion is true, so I'm supposed to trawl the internet to find evidence that your assertion is true, then report back here to state that your assertion is either true or false.

                      Thanks you for your kind consideration

                    • SPC …
                      14 October 2022 at 1:12 pm

                      May I ask, how much you have read about the topic, if you have no awareness that vaccination reduced rates of transmission?

                    • Andy …
                      15 October 2022 at 10:58 am

                      "

                      May I ask, how much you have read about the topic, if you have no awareness that vaccination reduced rates of transmission?"

                      Is there evidence that the vaccination reduced transmisison?

                      Link please

                    • Andy …
                      15 October 2022 at 11:23 am

                      It amazes me that the evidence of vaccine failure is now so overwhelming that people are doubling down on their dogma.

                    • Incognito []
                      15 October 2022 at 11:57 am

                      Dude, I know there are no mirrors in rabbit holes, but the irony is extreme.

                    • SPC …
                      15 October 2022 at 11:46 am

                      The vaccine reduces the chances of

                      1. infection

                      2. hospitalisation

                      3. long covid

                    • Andy …
                      15 October 2022 at 1:39 pm

                      The evidence of serious long term harm from these vaccines is overwhelming. I'm not even going to bother engaging anymore.

                      You lot can stew in your own dogma and watch your world view collapse in front of view

                      Have a nice weekend

      • AB 7.1.2
        14 October 2022 at 12:17 pm

        hard being a "progressive" these days, showing undying allegiance to one of the most corrupt industries on the planet

        No 'progressive' has any illusions about the pharma industry – or any other massive, global aggregation of corporate power. We neither trust it nor have any allegiance to it. However it is an industry that is sufficiently regulated that at least some of its products do actually have efficacy.

        This is undeniable. There is a core of scientific method still surviving under the layers corporate greed and dishonesty. If you don't believe it, you can never join the queues demanding that Pharmac approve new medications.

        I remember my father saying what a dramatic difference was made by getting widespread access to penicillin after WWII. Children that before he would have expected to die, got better in a few days. He said it was like a miracle, and was very moved by it. I am sick of our modern idiocy.

        • Andy 7.1.2.1
          14 October 2022 at 12:29 pm

          Penicillin is an antibiotic. I agree that it has been a huge success but we also have the problem of antibiotic resistance.

          it has nothing whatsoever to do with questioning the efficacy and safety of mRNA vaccines, unless questioning one medication makes you "anti-science"

          • AB 7.1.2.1.1
            14 October 2022 at 1:35 pm

            My word you have a talent for missing the point. Which was – that to believe some of their products have efficacy, does not require or imply an "undying allegiance" to the pharma industry. It requires and implies a functioning brain.

            And I can assure you I am aware of the difference between a antibiotics and vaccines. But that is immaterial in terms of my argument.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 7.1.2.1.2
            14 October 2022 at 1:49 pm

            we also have the problem of antibiotic resistance

            Having the problem of antibiotic resistance is preferable to never having discovered antibiotics (yes?), just as problems with vaccines (an older invention) are preferable to no vaccines at all. We do need better antibiotic stewardship.

        • Patricia Bremner 7.1.2.2
          14 October 2022 at 1:40 pm

          yes Septicemia killed millions before the advent of antibiotics.

          Andy you appear to be as "one eyed" as you think "progressives are"

          The world is not black or white or left or right and situations change. The greed of some doe not detract from the successes.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 7.2
      14 October 2022 at 1:39 pm

      Hope all VFF devotees stay well. Meanwhile, to whoever keeps putting VFF disinformation in my letterbox – please stop.

      • Anne 7.2.1
        14 October 2022 at 3:36 pm

        Same here DMK.

        I wish I could catch them at it and give them a piece of my mind but never see them. Suspect they come after dark.

  8. Anne 8
    14 October 2022 at 10:47 am

    So the 3% of the population who are VFF loons are right, and the scientists and professors and health professionals around the world are wrong.

    Pull your head in.

    • Andy 8.1
      14 October 2022 at 11:01 am

      Helen Petousis-Harris has backtracked on the booster, saying that she won't be taking another one.

      • Shanreagh 8.1.1
        14 October 2022 at 11:19 am

        Link please

          • Bearded Git 8.1.1.1.1
            14 October 2022 at 12:35 pm

            Petousis-Harris was triple vaxxed when she said this, and still recommended that those at risk, especially the elderly, should get the fourth vax.

            Andy-you are also ignoring the fact that 4 vaxxes help to protect against new variants of Covid such as the one that has just arrived in NZ.

            https://www.healthnavigator.org.nz/health-a-z/c/covid-19-new-variants/

            • Andy 8.1.1.1.1.1
              14 October 2022 at 12:50 pm

              Funny how Denmark no longer recommends jabs for the under 50s and Norway similarly for the under 65s, yet good old NZ is still jabbing kids.

              I generally look up to the scandinavian countries in many respects, they seem a lot more open and honest than NZ

              • KJT …
                14 October 2022 at 1:38 pm

                Because they are already vaccinated, you clot!

                Statistics – NIPH (fhi.no)

                93.3

                13/10/2022

                PROPORTION (%) 18 YEARS OR OLDER VACCINATED WITH SECOND DOSE

                • Andy …
                  14 October 2022 at 1:53 pm

                  So they are recommending not to take a jab if you have a jab?

                  Is this not the case in NZ?

                  Why do you need a doctor's note in Denmark to get a jab if you are under 50?

                  • SPC …
                    14 October 2022 at 1:56 pm

                    Maybe the government there is now only funding (boosters) it to those under 50 with pre existing health conditions …

              • Bearded Git …
                14 October 2022 at 2:17 pm

                Does that include Sweden with its new hard-right influenced government Andy?

                I guess that kind of government would be consistent with your VFF views.

                • Andy …
                  14 October 2022 at 2:23 pm

                  In Sweden "hard right" means not what you think.

                  And pray tell me what my "VFF Views" are?

                  You obviously know a lot about me, more than I do myself.

                  I look forward to your cited reply.

              • joe90 …
                14 October 2022 at 3:02 pm

                Denmark no longer recommends jabs for the under 50s

                Because a very large number of them have already been vaccinated and have previously been infected with covid-19, and there is consequently good immunity among this part of the population.

                However, if an under fifty is at a higher risk of becoming severely ill from covid-19, works in the healthcare and elderly care sector as well as in selected parts of the social services sector who have close contact with patients or citizens who are at higher risk of becoming severely ill from covid-19, or is a relative of persons at particularly higher risk, vaccination is available.

                https://www.sst.dk/en/english/corona-eng/vaccination-against-covid-19

              • Anne …
                14 October 2022 at 3:37 pm

                Stupid is as stupid does!

            • AB 8.1.1.1.1.2
              14 October 2022 at 1:45 pm

              This is not surprising either given that: vaccine escape with omicron seems to be high, omicron infections appears to be less severe in general, there are now effective antiviral treatments for people with severe infection, the young just do better anyway if infected, and that all vaccines have risks.

              The combination of these factors just shifts the risk-benefit balance away from giving boosters to the young. It's blindingly obvious why. No conspiracies, no nefariousness, no desire to control – just the old-fashioned slog and commonsense of public health professionals.

              • Andy …
                14 October 2022 at 2:11 pm

                "

                just the old-fashioned slog and commonsense of public health professionals. "

                that includes deplatforming and sacking doctors that question the pharma narrative.

                Gotta love that "old fashioned" stuff

                I can't see this ending well for those that screamed loudest for mandates

                • AB …
                  14 October 2022 at 2:57 pm

                  Gotta love that "old fashioned" stuff

                  Indeed you should – and be grateful too. They've been doing it with a nation-building dedication for a a long time.

                  • Andy …
                    14 October 2022 at 3:46 pm

                    They have been deplatforming and sacking doctors who don't subscribe to the Big Pharma narrative?

                    WTF would I be grateful about this? I prefer doctors who are honest and have my health as their primary interest, not taking back handers from pharma reps

      • gsays 8.1.2
        14 October 2022 at 12:53 pm

        You can add Prof. Christine Stabell-Benn to that list of experts.

        Further to your point about a lack of data, she shows in this clip, the data that does exsist suggesting that the while the mRNA may lower death by Covid it increases the risk of all cause mortality. (from 20 mins). Then at about 22.20 she says she opposes any form of mandate without the data to support it.

      • Incognito 8.1.3
        14 October 2022 at 8:56 pm

        Are you seriously trying to use the reasoned evidence-based expert opinion of Helen Petousis-Harris as an argument to defend VFF? She hasn’t backtracked on the booster, which she’s had; she doesn’t see the need, at present, for a fourth shot.

        It seems to me that you have very little understanding of what you’re talking about. In addition, your logic is flawed; absence of evidence ≠ evidence of absence, not recommending ≠ advising against, being pro-vaccine ≠ pro-mandate, and being a progressive ≠ showing undying allegiance to one of the most corrupt industries on the planet. You failed to back up your last assertion, BTW.

        In addition, no doctors were sacked in NZ for questioning or not subscribing to the “Big Pharma narrative”. That’s an outright lie.

        Insinuating that doctors who gave the vaccine took “back handers from pharma reps” is an unsupported accusation, at best.

        The clinical trials of the vaccine tested for safety and efficacy and they met the endpoints for approval, or preliminary approval, at least, based on the available data. Worldwide. We have learned a lot about the vaccine and the virus since then and we’re still on a steep learning curve. Fortunately, the worst seems to be over, for now, and, as Helen Petousis-Harris noted, we’re likely to see new vaccines becoming available in the near future – let’s hope we won’t need them badly!

        As SPC mentions in 2 comments below @ 15 and 15.1, the vaccine seems effective against long Covid. None of the trials has tested for this because we didn’t even know about long Covid at the time. By your logic, we should simply ignore this and not use the vaccine for this!?

        If you want to defend VFF, you really need better arguments and better reasoning, and a lot of ‘good luck’. VFF have become a basket for nutter conspiracies and disinformation and I fail to see why any person with a functional brain and internet access would fall for that nonsense.

        Lastly, I note that you copped a 3-month ban in April for similar unsupported nonsense that you’ve been spouting here today.

        PS Viagra doesn’t make you run faster, quite the contrary.

        • Andy 8.1.3.1
          15 October 2022 at 11:03 am

          I copped a three month ban for stating that I tested positive for Covid and had the symptoms of a mild cold, if I recall correctly

        • Andy 8.1.3.2
          15 October 2022 at 11:16 am

          "If you want to defend VFF, you really need better arguments and better reasoning, and a lot of ‘good luck’. VFF have become a basket for nutter conspiracies and disinformation and I fail to see why any person with a functional brain and internet access would fall for that nonsense"

          I don't recall "defending" VFF or anyone else for that matter.

          I understand that VFF are involved in creating resilient communities, promoting natural health and a raft of other things. I expect in a broad church grassroots organisation you will attract a few conspiracy theorists, whatever that means these day

          • SPC 8.1.3.2.1
            15 October 2022 at 11:43 am

            Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation in which the abuser attempts to sow self-doubt and confusion in their victim's mind. Typically, gaslighters are seeking to gain power and control over the other person, by distorting reality and forcing them to question their own judgment, memories and intuition.

            • "I never said that."
            • "I don't know why you're making such a huge deal of this."
            • "You're being overly sensitive."
            • "You are the issue, not me."

            As to defending VFF, I understand … that VFF is …

          • Incognito 8.1.3.2.2
            15 October 2022 at 11:51 am

            Oh, please! This is so pathetic it is insulting. Your ‘understanding’ of VFF is nothing but cult-style propaganda. Did you vote for their candidates in the Local Elections?

            You’re again defending VFF here and you leaped to their defence when you had repeated go’s at Anne. Try criticising VFF and see if you can find any faults or flaws with them; then we’ll know if you’re for real here or not.

    • Corey Humm 9.1
      14 October 2022 at 2:04 pm

      Omg he's so embarrassing, he owes Aunty Kay hundreds of thousands and he's saying she's going to pay him. Good grief I'm sick of him dragging the family through the media.

      He's living in an alternate dimension.

      Hes a working class guy from east Christchurch to two extremely hard working community minded parents from a working class neighborhood.

      He despised his working class roots and has always looked down on the family, the fact that his parents grew up in state houses and worked hard to own their own shops, he always wanted to impress the rich kids at his school, then the rich kids at his university. It's always money money money. Money make me look successful, money make me friends money make people like me.

      His rich "friends" and the Tory's never accepted him because he didn't go to the right schools or have the right parents.

      He's my cousin and all but noone in the family is like this honestly he's lost his marbles, and he may be ashamed of his family but quite frankly…. Well it goes both ways.

      • Patricia Bremner 9.1.1
        14 October 2022 at 3:27 pm

        Corey, you are not responsible for his carry on.

        We had a town drunk uncle in our family 70 years ago, and it nearly affected my getting papers from the careers advisor to attend Training college 62 years ago. Bad family members cause sorrow and pain, and endless "help them" schemes.

        It was then I learned the party concerned has to want to be helped, otherwise it is wasted effort.

        Hold your head up. Your posts here show a community minded positive person, the absolute opposite to him.yes

        • Corey Humm 9.1.1.1
          14 October 2022 at 9:53 pm

          Thanks Patricia, yep unfortunately you really can't help people unless they want to help themselves.

          Its been like a slow moving car crash watching him deteriorate.

          He is pretty much who I aspire not to be tbh, one day he'll wake up all alone and take a long hard look in the mirror, do I wanna try my whole life to be in the cool kids club or do I wanna have a family and be on the side of the people.

      • Jimmy 9.1.2
        14 October 2022 at 5:01 pm

        You can't choose your relatives as they say. Doesn't reflect on you.

  10. SPC 10
    14 October 2022 at 10:57 am

    John Key says he has never voted left, so would have voted for Trump and Bolsonaro …

    One wonders about the 1930's …

    • higherstandard 10.1
      14 October 2022 at 11:08 am

      How could Key have voted for Trump or Bolsonaro ?

      More importantly has Key paid arrears for living rent free in your head the past decade….

      I can’t understand why people keep sniping about Key or from the other side of politics sniping about Clark after so many years.

      Their time is done.

      • SPC 10.1.1
        14 October 2022 at 12:04 pm

        John Key says he has never voted left, so would have voted for Trump and Bolsonaro …

        Read it more slowly this time.

        And if you have a problem with people interviewing Key and publishing what he says, take it up with them.

        This is about how blind partisanship can lead to all sorts of perverse outcomes, such as for the American democracy and as for the destruction of the rain forest …

        Some people preferred the right in the 1930’s to the left back then …

      • Incognito 10.1.2
        14 October 2022 at 5:01 pm

        Former New Zealand Prime Minister John Key says he would've voted for former US President Donald Trump in their 2016 election if he was in America at the time.

        https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/10/former-prime-minister-john-key-says-he-would-ve-voted-for-donald-trump-in-2016-us-election.html

        Sounds much less hypothetical coming from Key than coming from the average RW voter, doesn’t it?

        Why do RW NZ MSM keep bringing John Key back up and into it all the time, one wonders …

        • pat 10.1.2.1
          14 October 2022 at 5:22 pm

          youve got to admit it is something of a surprising position…or at least the public voicing of it.

          • Incognito 10.1.2.1.1
            14 October 2022 at 7:48 pm

            Key normalised Trump and Bolsonaro to RW voters, in NZ, as perfectly acceptable choices. In other words, anything goes on the political Right in this country.

      • Stuart Munro 10.1.3
        14 October 2022 at 8:31 pm

        How could Key have voted for Trump or Bolsonaro ?

        Judging by the Panama Papers loophole, Key is the kind of guy that finds a way to do anything reprehensible.

    • Shanreagh 10.2
      14 October 2022 at 11:11 am

      So in Auckland they would put a fluffy white poodle/spoodle/yackadoodle up on the hustings with a big blue ribbon around its neck and he would vote for it. I always thought such things only happened in Southland ….the old joke circulates around there with monotonous regularity.

      I have changed the type of dog as Southlanders would usually vote for a sheepdog or collie cross.

      I find this appalling.

      Trump's faults and those of Bolsonaro were apparent from very early on but JK would vote for a flawed person.

    • Mac1 10.3
      14 October 2022 at 11:24 am

      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/13/former-new-zealand-pm-john-key-says-he-would-have-voted-for-trump-and-bolsonaro?

      That's the reference for SPC above. Thought about commenting on it myself. He's a right voter, he says, and he was being honest in a quick fire quiz; a medium I'd suggest is not conducive to nuanced debate, unlike The Standard!

      I'd have said that he'd tripped down a pothole, which seemingly is a post-pandemic information source replacing rabbit holes.

      • alwyn 10.3.1
        14 October 2022 at 12:26 pm

        That's all right. I know quite a lot of people who voted Labour in 2020 because they believed that Labour had saved the lives of their Grannies, and 80,00 other people as well.

        To be fair though, a large percentage of them now say that it was a mistake and have changed their minds about who they are going to vote for next year. Their only worry is about the amount of damage they see being done to New Zealand in the remaining 12 months of their term. They are developing a "Never Again" attitude to Labour.

        • dv 10.3.1.1
          14 October 2022 at 12:34 pm

          So are you saying labour should not have saved their Grannies Alwyn.

        • Shanreagh 10.3.1.2
          14 October 2022 at 2:30 pm

          Would you have voted for Trump or Bolsanaro Alwyn. This is actually what the post was about and not who voted for Labour in the last election.

        • Mac1 10.3.1.3
          14 October 2022 at 10:00 pm

          There is a difference that needs to clearly delineated. Some people vote for their oen personal interest and some vote for the good of the society they live in. Some vote, say, for lower taxes as they will benefit with more money to spend. Others will say I don't mind paying more tax as I will be living in a fairer and more just society and government helps by assisting people who I cannot personally reach.

          Voting for 'grannies' and for people who got saved is in the second group.

          Voting for a racist, sociopathic, greedy, narcissistic buffoon who believes he is far brighter than he really is, has questionable morality and lacks essential values such as Trump is just not the same thing. It is a vote for self interest that is in the end neither beneficial for the individual or society.

          I don't know much about Bolsonaro but read that he is not respected for his social views.

          Would I vote for people like Stalin or the Korean dictator because they are of the Left and I am a Left voter?

          This is why I am concerned about the continued inability of National to select a candidate slate of decent, reliable, socially concerned individuals so that a decent right of centre voter can vote for decency and not be forced into choosing to vote for right wing candidates of Trump-like concerns.

          It's why I am concerned that a leader of a major party of the centre-right could find conscionable the idea of voting for Trump or his ilk.

  11. RP Mcmurphy 11
    14 October 2022 at 11:24 am

    when is willie jackson going to fire simon dallow and jessica much?

    • alwyn 11.1
      14 October 2022 at 12:32 pm

      I think he has to get the merger with RNZ implemented. I am told it is only after that goes through that the Minister will be able to interfere quite so blatantly in the operation of the Company.

      I haven't been following the shenanigans very much so it may already be possible.

      • Stuart Munro 11.1.1
        14 October 2022 at 8:35 pm

        The way to do it is by cost cutting.

        Take the 3-4 'personalities' on TV idiot panels, and tell them there is only one job and one salary on offer. They'll self-select, possibly providing some amusing reality TV in the process.

    • X Socialist 11.2
      14 October 2022 at 1:04 pm

      Not only will Willie feel the heat, his bro John Tamihere already is. What John emailed to Herald reporter, Mat Nippert, is very unlike John, who, on the whole, has kept a balanced view on race relations comparative to other Maori commentators. I know Willie has been going around the country talking to Maori leadership. My guess is Jackson wants to formulate a plan to stop National eroding Maori initiatives should they come to power.

      Wednesday 12th @ 16.45pm. 5.56 mark on playback.

      https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-demand/week-on-demand/

  12. Poission 12
    14 October 2022 at 11:39 am

    I looked, and behold, a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard something like a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; but do not damage the oil and the wine."

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300712314/winston-peters-says-nz-first-is-coming-back-again

  13. alwyn 13
    14 October 2022 at 12:36 pm

    Why, and when, did MBIE loan $15 million to Ruapehu Alpine Lifts to build new facilities on Ruapehu?

    What were they thinking of and who ordered the expenditure? I wonder which politicians are keen skiers and have lifetime passes for the ski-lifts on the mountain?

  14. gsays 14
    14 October 2022 at 1:05 pm

    Have to say I am not comfortable with Hipkins wanting to make new laws so the cops can continue their illegal and unlawful behaviour in photographing youth who might get up to no good. Very perverse when they are supposed to uphold the law

    A new position for a Minister of Future Crime? The timing is rather poor with the quashing of Peter Ellis's convictions which ask very serious questions of the policeand judiciary.

    A great series from Newsroom which uses footage from Melanie Reid interviewing Ellis back in the day. A reminder that we have come a long way from that time.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/investigations/peter-ellis-the-creche-case-me

    • terryW 14.1
      14 October 2022 at 8:36 pm

      A Chch friend was accused of sexually molesting his 3 yo, who had developed a real fear of going into the toilet with an adult. He could only see his son under supervision for a couple of years. There was never any police charge, but the whole episode disrupted his relationship with his child. These days that child is a man with mental health and addiction issues. Guess where the child went to daycare. Guess who frequently babysat him for his mother. All before the creche case happened. The fear of toiletting was mentioned by worried creche parents in a North&South article last yearish. Peter Ellis's trial and the dodgy questioning of children undoubtedly were poorly executed. The ruling is about how justice was carried out. Whether he was innocent is a completely different matter. Frankly it stinks for the children involved and for their families. I believe poor judicial procedures hurt them then, while Ellis's acquittal on a procedural basis robs them of justice (and mana, the crux of the legal appeal) now.

  15. SPC 15
    14 October 2022 at 1:17 pm

    A large study on long covid.

    A study of tens of thousands of people in Scotland found that one in 20 people who had been sick with Covid reported not recovering at all, and another four in 10 said they had not fully recovered from their infections many months later.

    The study did not identify greater risks of long-term problems in people with asymptomatic coronavirus infections. It also found, in a much more limited subset of participants who had been given at least one dose of Covid vaccine before their infections, that vaccination appeared to help reduce if not eliminate the risk of some long Covid symptoms.

    People with severe initial Covid cases were at higher risk of long-term problems, the study found.

    Only a small portion of the study participants — about 4 percent — had been vaccinated before their infections, and many of those with only a single dose.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/12/health/long-covid.html

    • SPC 15.1
      14 October 2022 at 1:42 pm

      There is less long covid if vaxxed, and hopefully less from the omicron variant as well as most have a less severe illness with it.

      The following study looked at the effectiveness of vaccines in reducing transmission in the days of the alpha and delta variants.

      Vaccines that work against SARS-CoV-2 have helped change the course of the pandemic by reducing illness and hospital admissions.

      But much of the focus of research has been on effectiveness in preventing infection, illness, and hospital admission. What is less well measured is the impact of vaccination on preventing onward transmission.

      What evidence do we have that covid-19 vaccines prevent transmission?

      Most papers to date (notably, many are preprints and have yet to be peer reviewed) indicate vaccines are holding up against admission to hospital and mortality, says Linda Bauld, professor of public health at the University of Edinburgh, “but not so much against transmission.”

      The first weekly covid-19 vaccine surveillance report for 20221 from the UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA) was more positive than Bauld’s assessment—but didn’t say outright that covid-19 vaccines prevent transmission. “Several studies have provided evidence that vaccines are effective at preventing infection,” it states, “Uninfected people cannot transmit; therefore, the vaccines are also effective at preventing transmission.”

      A study2 of covid-19 transmission within English households using data gathered in early 2021 found that even a single dose of a covid-19 vaccine reduced the likelihood of household transmission by 40-50%. This was supported by a study of household transmission among Scottish healthcare workers conducted between December 2020 and March 2021.3 Both studies analysed the impact of vaccination on transmission of the α variant of SARS-CoV-2, which was dominant at the time.

      A subsequent study,4 conducted later in the course of the pandemic when the delta variant was dominant, showed vaccines had a less pronounced effect on denting onward transmission, but were still effective.

      https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o298

  16. Stephen D 16
    14 October 2022 at 1:27 pm

    What’s the gos here?

    ”The MP for Taranaki-King Country has resigned from her portfolios due to a personal dispute her family is in with the Ministry for Primary Industries.”

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/national-mp-barbara-kuriger-quits-portfolio-amid-dispute-with-government-department/JUWMT5EV5ZX75NFWGA4KTTWWYY/

    • observer 16.1
      14 October 2022 at 4:02 pm

      Another chance to compare Luxon the so-called can-do CEO with the real job of PM …

      1) He waited a week, then did the Friday afternoon dump

      2) Ministers who resign have to front the media. Kuriger has not.

      3) No transparency at all about the cause, the process, and what Luxon knew about any of it before last week.

      The PM would be on toast for handling it like that.

      • Ad 16.1.1
        14 October 2022 at 5:30 pm

        Agree.

        Particularly as only yesterday she fronted for National on the farmer+carbon response.

      • Belladonna 16.1.2
        14 October 2022 at 5:51 pm

        I don't know about point number 2. I can recall lots of instances of Ministers resigning (or being fired) and not fronting the media straight away.

        Usually, the Leader wants to keep control of the narrative – and allow a cool down period for all concerned.

      • logie97 16.1.3
        14 October 2022 at 10:45 pm

        At the beginning of the week, when the government announced the farm charges on emissions Luxon appeared to be fence sitting, but when Federated Farmers /Hoggard spouted opposition, Luxon became more forceful. He could hardly have a compromised spokesperson fronting the debate, and only then did he decide to act on the removal of Kuriger from her portfolios.

  17. Shanreagh 17
    14 October 2022 at 2:25 pm

    Probably over the cruelty to animals charges brought in 2017. I am amazed that these charges did not disqualify her ages ago. Even if she was not personally involved I would have thought it would be pretty hard to advocate for farming issues when your family's animal management style includes cruelty.

    • Belladonna 17.1
      14 October 2022 at 2:38 pm

      I agree that it seems to be related to the case (where her son who was sharemilking was convicted). But I don't understand why the family would still be in dispute with MPI over it? He pleaded guilty (to reduced charges) and has been convicted and sentenced in 2020. Why the ongoing dispute?

    • Stephen D 17.2
      14 October 2022 at 2:51 pm

      Begs a couple of questions.

      Did Luxon know before he gave her the spokesperson role?

      If not, why not. If so, what was he thinking!

      • Tony Veitch 17.2.1
        14 October 2022 at 7:07 pm

        Oh, Luxon didn't know beforehand, just as he didn't know of Sam's thuggery before his selection as a candidate!

        He's either thick or incompetent – probably both.

    • joe90 17.3
      14 October 2022 at 3:15 pm

      Even if she was not personally involved

      She's a director of the company fined. I'm surprised she's lasted this long.

      Kuriger was convicted of wilful ill-treatment of the cows under the Animal Welfare Act. He was last week ordered to pay veterinary and report costs of $4060, and Oxbow Dairies Ltd was fined $30,000.

      https://www.newsroom.co.nz/a-seldom-acknowledged-animal-problem

      https://opencorporates.com/companies/nz/962695

      why the family would still be in dispute with MPI

      Odds are they're still not on top of the problem.

      • Belladonna 17.3.1
        14 October 2022 at 6:35 pm

        More information from a more recent source:

        Luxon wouldn't discuss the nature of the dispute or of Kurigers wrongdoing on Friday, but said Kuriger did not raise the issue herself.

        "A third party raised it with my office, we looked into it and I discussed it in full with Barbara last night," he said.

        Newshub has seen the email from the third party. We've chosen not to name them.

        The sender claims to be an MPI employee and alleges Kuriger has used her official letterhead to persistently request official information about her family’s case. They raise concerns about her using her influence.

        Using official MP letterhead for a private query – is not acceptable (and Kuriger would have known it was not – after the Nick Smith case)

        In relation to the speed of Luxon's response –

        Asked on Friday when he found out about the matter, Luxon said he "became fully aware last night in our conversation".

        But Newshub can reveal National has been sitting on this information for two weeks. The email was sent on Saturday, October 1. A staffer from Luxon’s office acknowledged receipt of the email two days later, saying, "it will be carefully considered".

        No action was taken until Thursday night.

        Not exactly a stellar response time – 3-4 days would be reasonable – to investigate and discuss with the MP concerned – but 2 weeks is definitely in the lag territory.

        It makes me wonder if he had been alerted that the MPI staffer was going to take it to the media – and that prompted him into action [pure speculation, I have no direct or indirect knowledge]

        https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/10/whistleblower-alerted-national-to-barbara-kuriger-matter-two-weeks-ago-raised-concern-about-mp-s-actions-towards-ministry.html

        [NB: the poor punctuation in the quotes is from the initial article – I have firmly resisted the urge to correct it!]

  18. Poission 18
    14 October 2022 at 4:03 pm

    Andrew Bailey arrives at IIF meeting as news was breaking that the Chancellor had to return to UK to take care of emergency of his own making.( read as all worlds senior economics advisors said UK policy was a crock)

    https://twitter.com/BloombergUK/status/1580730237083471872?cxt=HHwWgMCisdHx8O8rAAAA

    https://twitter.com/ChrisGiles_/status/1580715616167608320

    • pat 18.1
      14 October 2022 at 5:19 pm

      The problem is bigger than the UK….but they are visible.

      • Poission 18.1.1
        14 October 2022 at 5:31 pm

        The UK mini budget was the torch that flamed the problem ie liquidity for margin calls.Not only for pension funds,but insurance companies and reinsurance companies.

        The us$ problem is well known as the tradeoff for the US$ being a reserve currency was to run a US trade deficit.The other part as the money now being liquid in US$ it flows to US short end such as T bills,and other interest bearing cash products,the higher interest,means higher tax deductions at source which allows the US to decrease its federal deficit which has decreased to around 2.7 trillion in the last 12 months.

        • pat 18.1.1.1
          14 October 2022 at 5:43 pm

          My understanding of the liquidity problem is the lack of willingness to take the risk due to (potential and unknown) multiple claims on single collateral….aka, a house of cards.

          The wind that blows it all down could come from anywhere, and probably from an unwatched direction.

          • Poission 18.1.1.1.1
            14 October 2022 at 6:06 pm

            There was a lot of margin calls following the UK minibudget at the long end gilts,where nothing normally happens (a boring investment as expected) this allowed the Pension funds and Insurance companies to leverage the asset to use cash for growth investments.A fast change in pricing changed that very fast and the next day there was margin calls on 1/2 a trillion pound of assets.This required selling assets to become liquid which locked in larger sell offs, as the funds needed cash for day to day running .

            One of the interesting problems with the Gilt meltdown was some hedge funds (cough blackrock) had both puts and calls trades against the same assets,where they zeroed the trades for some funds.

            Still is a house of cards situation,with rumours of a coup in the UK causing a pound to rise in value.

            • pat 18.1.1.1.1.1
              14 October 2022 at 6:08 pm

              And while everyone watches the UK (and they scramble to underwrite)…..

              • Poission …
                14 October 2022 at 6:13 pm

                Trouble is it will be some of my pension fund and the NZ superfund,ACC etc.

                I think Robertson's idea of having NZ debt issues in gilts listed on the FTSE needs to be kicked for touch (supposed to list in Nov)

                • pat …
                  14 October 2022 at 6:21 pm

                  Trouble is its a global problem and nobody (except perhaps North Korea) are out of the firing line. The real problem is we have developed a system that nobody really knows the mechanics of…especially central banks.

                  It runs on instinct

                  • Poission …
                    14 October 2022 at 6:30 pm

                    The situation is more that there are a lot trading in financial markets who have only known a zero discount world since the GFC with low interest rates.As the cheap money evaporated,these great financial influencer's were caught out (especially hedge funds) similar to the Housing market here.

                    The elephant in the room is still inflation,and few if any (excluding emerging markets) are responding correctly to reduce inflation in overheated economies.

                    • pat …
                      14 October 2022 at 6:54 pm

                      Cant see the logic there….ultimately it requires continuous growth, without which the ability to continue to maintain the debt (credit) cycle is lost…in the past the leverage was both less and known…now, not so.

                      The elephant in the room is the end of growth.

                  • Poission …
                    14 October 2022 at 7:08 pm

                    Blackrock just reported a decrease in Assets by around 16%,as all asset classes decrease (excluding naughty energy).

                    The US printed a large CPI (where another jumbo hike is priced in) US stock market decreases 2.5%,reverses on noise of UK coup) and rumours of a U turn on tax with an increase in UK corporate tax cause market appreciation,traders are operating on noise and rumour.

                    • pat …
                      14 October 2022 at 7:36 pm

                      The stock markets 'know' less than central banks…and thats saying something….as far as I can see the predominance of the US economy will first wreck other economies and as a consequence themselves…but group think is blind to such a scenario.

                  • Poission …
                    14 October 2022 at 7:53 pm

                    The US banks report today and the BOE QE finishes today,the stock market will be affected by both,and as reporting season comes in the questions will be on what part of Profits will be inflation and what part value.

                    • pat …
                      14 October 2022 at 7:55 pm

                      What proportion of investment retail investors?

                    • Poission …
                      14 October 2022 at 9:07 pm

                      Depends on market,Higher in US in equities/bonds then others as Housing is not really looked as an investment asset (unlike say the rest of the anglos)

                      As a rough estimate it used to be 20%,which can be very noisy if they head to the exits at the same time.As they react on heart not head.

  19. Grey Area 19
    14 October 2022 at 4:36 pm

    "Auckland Mayor Wayne Brown​ has reportedly told media the mayoral salary of $296,000 a year is not a lot of money to him.

    "When a reporter told him that most people would regard his salary of $296,000 to be large, the businessman said: "It's not to me"."

    He could always donate it to charity then. But hang on …

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/130175981/brown-bemoans-296000-salary-but-how-does-it-compare-to-others-in-highpowered-roles

    Why compare Brown's salary with those of CEOs unless the report is disingenuous and dealing in false equivalences? He's the mayor not the Auckland city CEO.

    Public service anyone? The next three years are going to be long for Auckland.

    • Grey Area 19.1
      14 October 2022 at 5:04 pm

      Just seen that this is a follow-up to an earlier story about Brown's response to his salary.