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Open mike 14/02/2014

Written By: - Date published: 7:04 am, February 14th, 2014 - 160 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

160 comments on “Open mike 14/02/2014 ”

  1. Sanctuary 1

    Has anyone else noticed that while John has denied being a shape shifting lizard creature, he didn’t refute the allegation he is out to enslave us all?

    • Pasupial 1.1

      And what if his true form is more akin to an amphibian than a reptile?

      It is always hard to tell with xenomorphology of the dopplegangst.

      • Sanctuary 1.1.1

        Hence Lenin’s lesser known, and somewhat discursive for a monograph, piece: “On the xenomorphology of the dopplegangst capitalist class, and smoking opium.”


  2. Tracey 2

    ” New Zealand bosses are upbeat about their business prospects in 2014 and the global economic outlook, even as they fear more regulation, a survey has found.

    The PWC Annual Global CEO Survey shows Kiwi chief executives were more upbeat than their international counterparts.

    Eighty-nine per cent of those surveyed said they felt confident about their company’s outlook and 91 per cent believed technology would be the biggest transformation trend to have an impact on their business.

    Nearly two-thirds said the global economy would improve this year. ”

    Nothing about how they will improve working conditions and raise wages. And anyone who says it will happen are BS-ing. These guys have no focus or time for their workforce. Workforce doesn’t even rate a mention in their upbeatedness… mentioned regulation again, so they can keep saying how hard it is in NZ when it comes time to reject pay increases.

    • framu 2.1

      “how hard it is in NZ”

      never mind that were consistantly rated one the easiest and free-est places in the world to do business

    • Flip 2.2

      New Zealand bosses are upbeat about their business prospects in 2014 and the global economic outlook, even as they fear more regulation, a survey has found.

      Just saying what they have been told to say. No basis, justification or evidence needed for the survey as far as I know. If they say it often enough then people believe it.

    • Rosie 2.3

      “Nothing about how they will improve working conditions and raise wages. And anyone who says it will happen are BS-ing. These guys have no focus or time for their workforce.”

      Ain’t that the truth Sis. It’s a one way street, this “recovery”, or this “confidence”

      • Tracey 2.3.1

        which is why mr mapp ignores my questions when he describes good economic news… wont say when it will translate to good for closing the gap between rich and poor and increasing minimum wage. Despite all evidence to the contrary he hangs on tot he neolib manta…

        • Rosie

          Yes, I’ve seen those discussions………………He was probably sitting there with his hands over ears going “la la la! I can’t hear you!”

  3. Descendant Of Sssmith 3

    Just by chance recently came across a lovely gentleman from Wellington who often had tea with members of The Communist Party at his home during the Muldoon era.

    Was interesting, and not surprising, to hear of his regular visits by police and spies to find out what he was up to. He oft took in sailors to stay with him on shore leave to ensure they had somewhere safe to stay and come back to while on leave and after each time he was again visited with demands as to whether he had been trying to influence them (towards communism). When traveling overseas he had to apply for special permission to come back to NZ.

    He’s older now and undergoing cancer for treatment and thinking about writing some of this down I hope he does. The more light on this type of activity the better.

    With the Dotcom saga going on, and various other events that have come to light e.g. Rob Gilchrist, it’s evident in this country there’s a long history of our government spying on it’s own people.

    • Anne 3.1

      … it’s evident in this country there’s a long history of our government spying on it’s own people.

      Indeed DOS. Although it doesn’t necessarily follow it was always our own spies. ASIS was very active in NZ in the 1960s and 70s at the least. To a lesser degree (perhaps) so was the CIA and MI5.

      My late father had some experiences of surveillance activity in the late 60s and 1970s. He wasn’t a member of any Communist organisation but he did join The Russian Friendship Society. His interest in Russia (Soviet Union) was largely academic and had its origins in a Russian ‘adventure’ in the 1920s as a young British soldier. They had no evidence on him (because there was nothing there) but that didn’t stop the surveillance and other forms of harassment. Eventually it had repercussions for me too, so 20 years ago I made an attempt to get to the bottom of it all but with only partial success.

      • Tracey 3.1.1

        w i was at university there was a rumour that if you did russian lit, russian history or written language you were recorded on the Wanganui computer?

        • Anne

          That would be right Tracey. My father also had a passion for Russian history, music and the language. Through the Friendship Society he subscribed to a Russian magazine which used to arrive in the letterbox in plain brown wrapping. I bet every last one of them was opened and minutely examined for secret codes etc. 🙂

          And out of interest ASIS had a spy infiltrate the NZ Friendship Society. Her name was Wendi Holland (she went public about her spying activity in NZ 20 years ago) and her cover story was: she was born in Hamilton but her parents took her to Aussie when she was young and that’s why she had an Aussie accent. Dad used to talk about her and she seemed to have made a special effort to befriend him. He never did know the truth about her because he died before she went public.

          • Tracey

            I did Russian and american history…

            Spying is not new. Spying is not gone. No generation ever believes their government would spy on them in a democratic country.

          • karol

            Reminds me of a job I did for a short period after leaving school in the late 60s. I was reading a book at work – I read widely on various topics, just to find out about the world. This book was on a history of Mao Tse Tung, I think – or something similar on communism. I was far from committed to any political ideology.

            I was very surprised when I fellow worker had a quiet word in my ear during a lunch break. She thought I was very brave to be openly read a book like that at work. She talked of widespread surveillance of people into communism. I wasn’t sure whether this person was a bit paranoid and delusional or if there was some reality attached to her fears. Mainly I was just puzzled by her response which semed a bit over the top to me.

            I was quite young, politically naive, and just believed in the importance of knowledge.

            • Anne

              That was the tragedy karol. Your fellow worker was right. The paranoia and delusion lay with the spy agencies – encouraged and led by American McCarthyism. My father’s crime was actually a life-long search for knowledge, and any attempt to dissuade him from this passion only made him more determined to succeed.

              • Colonial Viper

                McCarthyism was the continuation of a programme to justify taking apart citizens civil rights and destroy socialist thought and socialist thinkers. Now, the anti-red scaremongering has become anti-muslim, anti-terror scaremongering.

                But the goals remain the same.

        • Disraeli Gladstone

          Ha. It was the other way around in the UK. If you did Russian Lit, language or history, it was rumoured you would be getting a meeting from a tutor offering you a job as a spy.

    • Tiger Mountain 3.2

      All true DOS, a great little book “Seeing Red–Undercover in 1950s New Zealand” by one George Fraser, Dunmore Press, 1995, ISBN 0-86469-255-2 gives many verifiable details (names and places) of the NZ Police special branch and Early NZSIS from the view of a paid informant (Fraser) who later ditched by the service became an opponent of the SIS Amendment Bill 1977.

      I know people involved with showing and distributing Soviet films who were approached to be quiet informers just passing on the odd snippet to their ‘handlers’. The old Socialist Unity Party was riddled with these types. The NZCP had an office in St Kevins Arcade Auckland at one stage and a physical line was discovered leading to a police station switch box.

      The thing is it is now you do not need to be a commo or anarchist to attract attention just anything to do with exercising your democratic right to free speech.

      • Colonial Viper 3.2.1

        It says something about the level of fear amongst the power elite, also how the security state apparatus has to continue to justify its own budgets and funding.

  4. adam 4

    Just for the socialist out there, an interview which will make you smile, rage a little and I hope motivated.

    Yes it on RT.

    And once you feel drawn out here’s part two to make you feel better.

    It’s always better with a few solutions thrown in…

    And for the truly cynical out there – it is an interview with Chris Hedges, one hell of a great journalist.

  5. adam 5

    And for those so focused on NZ it hurts – This is happening everywhere.


    The video is of poor quality sorry.

    And here’s one I missed on Fukushima – just goes to show the military is not above being sold down the river by the corporations.


    • Draco T Bastard 5.1

      Didn’t Smedley Butler say that as a marine he was an enforcer for the US corporations? The rich have been selling out the military since time immemorial.

  6. funny breakfast stuff..

    ..rawdon christie..(who has admitted he buys sugar-laden fizzy-drinks for..and feeds cups of caffeine/sugar(?)-laced tea to..his own children..)

    ..railed against the ‘nanny-state’ idea of a sugar-tax..

    ..phillip ure..

  7. the banning of this rap group is complete and utter hypocritical/double-standard bullshit..

    ..phillip ure..

    • i hope immigration maintains some consistancy here…

      ..and will cast their banning-eyes over the upcoming tour by those aging junkie-nihilists..

      ..the rolling stones..

      ..i mean..they are clear that they have ‘sympathy for the devil’..(!)

      ..and what if they should sing ‘street fighting man’…?


      ..fans may not be able to control themselves..!

      (zimmer-frames may get lobbed at zambucks..)

      ..therefor..by any measure..(especially those used by the banners of this rap-group..)

      ..the rolling stones..are ‘a threat to new zealand public safety’..

      ..and we must be protected from them..!

      phillip ure..

    • fender 7.2

      I’m against censorship of artists too. I’m not familiar with the exact contents of this groups ranting other than what’s been in the news, but it doesn’t sound healthy. I was thinking what would happen to me if I turned my amp up to ten and started shouting out obscene misogynist laden hate-speech in my neighbourhood. Would it be acceptable to say in my defence that I’m an artist and this is me expressing myself and should therefore be left alone to carry on? If my neighbours rushed to my defence and said they want to hear what I’m saying would that make it ok?

      It sure is a grey area. I don’t even know if the gig is for over 18’s (complete with prior warning regarding disgusting content), or why people are remotely interested in such “art”. And if this stuff is not allowed then how come groups like Destiny church can get away with spreading their version of hate-speech?

      The weirdest thing for me is why people are even interested in this “poetry”, but maybe I’m of the wrong generation to “get it”.

      • phillip ure 7.2.1

        @ fender..

        “..but maybe I’m of the wrong generation to “get it”..”


        and btw..rap is poetry..eh..?

        ..and i went to laneways..

        ..and i thought the best show there was from a rather large american rapper..

        ..he had the audience heaving..

        ..and if seeking an entree into rap..

        ..you could look back to yr generation..

        ..and explore the wonderful ouvre of one gil-scott-heron..

        ..as it is from him most modern rap flows..

        phillip ure..

      • greywarbler 7.2.2

        It would be a good subject for analysis, as to why free speech has come to mean so degraded a thing that shouted, hate-filled, violence encouraging, female despising stuff has become the banner of a mass of probably, young males. Who have communicated a lot of “vitriol”
        to the person behind the group who complained about this filth.

        Is it good to have this bottom-feeding bunch ready to be plucked and turned and issued with a cool uniform and handed a gun that really works and you can kill people with it, and learn cool technical stuff about it? As Bart said to the cop. Is that a club? No, no, was the reply.
        It’s a baton. What do you do with it? We club people. From the mouth of a child the truth will come, or something.

        The industrial mercenary, distanced from the seasons and quiet ways of the land, deprived of a thinking soul by the outpourings of a society saturated with trivia and manufactured glamour, and promises of tokens to get everything that crosses his mind, if he does what he’s told.
        What a piece of work is man, how noble his reason….

      • Rosie 7.2.3

        Hey fender. I’m not familiar with “Odd Future” either apart from what I heard on 3news, where they published some of their lyrics. I also heard the organiser for an anti violence group (sorry I didn’t catch her name and the name of the organisation) has been sent death threats and rape threats from fans because she spoke out about the band coming to NZ.

        Like you I’m wary of censorship and being the music fan I am have a room full of records and CD’s with what many people would find quite objectionable lyrics, within the songs, and on the cover artworks – but there is a line that shouldn’t be crossed and I feel those lyrics published last night on the telly, did just that.

        I found them sickening and felt frightened by them despite the fact they are no tangible threat to me. For women who have been victims of sexual violence it can be really distressing to hear such threatening words, and no woman should have to. Those guys have some issues, and they need to get them sorted out.

        • fender

          I’m not that old but I fail to see the attraction in this vile style of lyrics. This article describes the reasons for their visas being revoked and sounds reasonable to me.

          Like you I’m a music lover but I wouldn’t spend a cent on acquiring rubbish of this non-quality.

          “Those guys have some issues, and they need to get them sorted out.”

          +1 and thanks for your perspective.

          • Rosie

            Thanks for the link fender. From the audio: It was Denise Ritchie from the Stop Demand Foundation that I thought I heard on the radio this a.m who was the one that received threats, and indeed during the audio she did say the foundation had received abusive emails. I see that article was updated at 11pm last night so I’m not sure if there were developments since then or if I didn’t hear the news that precisely because it was early and I hadn’t had any coffee.

            • fender

              I’m not sure of any further developments but this:

              “Unfortunately, the lead singer using his Twitter account and through some of the things he said on stage encouraged his fans to basically harass and stalk this woman. She received a lot of threats to her personal safety and, again, it’s not really behaviour we want to see here in New Zealand.”

              …was enough for me to agree they shouldn’t be welcome, no matter who the woman that the threats were directed at is.

      • Draco T Bastard 7.2.4

        Apparently (ie, read somewhere in passing) it’s not the songs that are the problem but that they’ve started riots.

        • Rosie

          Bingo Drax, you posted at the same time as fender, re the above statement. The article fender linked above goes into the details of why they were denied entry and inciting violence was one of the main factors. Safety was a genuine issue.

  8. greywarbler 8

    Katherine Ryan having a interview on the electricity market prices and new renewable electricity production eg wind turbines.

    The costing that will be required to support renewable electricity is $120 whatever and now it is $70-$77 whatever. So it is inevitable within the present system that we will have prices that rise by at least half. Can we afford to pay for all this and have to pay a profit to shareholders on each upgrade or new facility which will be like a tax on it. Has anyone ever suggested that shareholders’ demands are a tax which if too high are like theft? And further, that purchasers of companies can be just like scavengers and wrecking balls?
    This is the ugly side of business.

    Wikipedia says =
    Electricity demand has grown by an average of 2.0% per year since 1974 and 0.4% from 2007 to 2012.
    The national grid today has ageing infrastructure and increasing demand is placing significant loads on some parts of the network. Transpower is currently investing in upgrading existing lines and substations to ensure supply security.

    Investments in new transmission are now regulated by the Commerce Commission. In a news release in January 2012, the Commerce Commission reported that Transpower was planning to invest $5 billion over the next 10 years in upgrades of critical infrastructure.[35]
    and (just a reminder of past problems probably still ongoing)

    The lack of diversity in the network is a further risk. Prior to 2013, all main transmission routes to Auckland and North Auckland passed through a single point in the network – Otahuhu substation.

    High-profile grid failures have occurred in Auckland relating to its ageing and overloading network. In June 2006, the seven-hour 2006 Auckland Blackout occurred when a corroded shackle at Otahuhu broke in strong winds and subsequently blacked out much of inner Auckland; and in October 2009, a three-hour blackout of northern Auckland and Northland occurred after a shipping container forklift accidentally hit the only major line supplying the region.

    • bad12 8.1

      Partly listening to Ryan today i didn’t hear which discussion i picked up upon one of the means that ‘business’ across all sectors of the economy is managing to gouge us the consumers with ever increasing prices,

      This relates also to electricity prices,(but may or may not have been part of the same item on RadionNZ), valuation of assets is the book-keeping means of ensuring that we the consumer are always caught on the inflation spiral of raising prices,

      The means of pricing of goods and services we would think would be simply a means of total costs of production plus X profit expectations being the means of arriving at the price for us the consumer,

      Not likely, the thieves also known as ‘business’ now calculate profit expectations off of the value of their assets used to generate the production of whatever they sell,

      SO, this means that the actual cost of production may fall or remain static, example: wages and ingredients needed for the production of a particular good or service have not risen, BUT, because of a book-keeping entry, purely theoretical i might add, the value of the actual machinery and building used in the production goes up and the current means of theft off of you and me then requires that the profit expectation has to rise in accordance with the subjective rise in the asset valuation,

      Such profit expectations supposedly justified, not by rising costs to the producer, but based upon such subjective valuation of assets is simply voodoo economics…

    • Draco T Bastard 8.2

      Has anyone ever suggested that shareholders’ demands are a tax which if too high are like theft?

      I have but, after due consideration, I’ve come to the conclusion that all profit is theft.

  9. greywarbler 9

    Jokeyhen says that he agrees that the Commerce Commission should look into the supermarket matter.

    According to Wikipedia, the Commerce Commission is an independent body not a creature of the shape-shifter. Therefore the PM should say that the Commerce Commission will decide on this matter and leave it publicly to them. But he sees himself as King John the Cunning and the decider on every matter concerning the country.

    Commerce Commission – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    It is an independent, quasi-judicial body, established under the Commerce Act 1986. The purpose of the Act is to promote competition in New Zealand’s market …

    Commerce Commission laws to be reviewed – English – Business …
    Dec 10, 2013 – Bill English says the Govt will review legislation around the Commerce Commission – but won’t rein in its independence. Photo / NZ Herald.

    Labour’s David Parker commenting clearly and sending a warning to English on scoop.

    David Parker
    Spokesperson for Finance
    10 December 2013

    English should support Commerce Commission
    Labour is calling on Finance Minister Bill English not to undermine the Commerce Commission, because it has a vital role in protecting consumers from price gouging.

    Finance spokesperson David Parker says Bill English’s warning he will review legislation around the Commission after it ruled to cut wholesale copper-based internet prices, sounds like “sour grapes”.

    “The Commerce Commission has a proper role to limit monopoly excess. Monopolies do what monopolies can. They extract excessive prices from consumers if they are not properly regulated.

  10. Skinny 10

    The countdown is on, here is the lowdown;

    Public protest against Strong/Under Arm Aussie Supermarket chain Progressive. Whangarei, today 4.pm till 5.30pm, Location, Outside Countdown, Town basin store.

    We will kick it off against the Aussies, Foodstuff your next once your practices are exposed, we have had enough of being ripped by the Supermarket duopoly.

    • greywarbler 10.1

      It seems to me that, though Foodstuff be kept in mind, the Aussie problem through Countdown and Progressive is a case on its own because it is not just here, it is also in Oz affecting our products there and our manufacturing and processing jobs here.

      Then there is the fact that the profit made here is owned by Australians and part of their economy. Also the fact that the Oz-owned supermarkets here are able to source items from their Oz base or suppliers, which they have threatened to substitute for NZ supply, and have used that as leverage when demanding that NZ prices be lowered till they meet their approval.

      There are so many different ways that this Oz mega-business is screwing NZ that I don’t know why you should start on Foodstuffs, who have to compete with this foreign Ozymandias of stoney harshness.

      a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
      And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,

      It is interesting to read of the real Ozymandias and the marvellous feat of work in stone that commemorates him in the desert. It is possible that that will be all that is left to commemorate Australia soon. What a pity if they suck all the lifeblood out of this country too.

      In antiquity, Ozymandias was an alternative name for the Egyptian pharaoh Ramesses II. Shelley began writing his poem in 1817, soon after the announcement of the British Museum’s acquisition of a large fragment of a statue Ramesses II from the thirteenth-century BCE, and some scholars consider that Shelley was inspired by this.

      The 7.25-ton fragment of the statue’s head and torso had been recovered in 1816 from the mortuary temple of Ramesses at Thebes by the Italian adventurer Giovanni Battista Belzoni (1778–1823).

    • Rosie 10.2

      Hi Skinny. Onya’s for protesting this afternoon – thats excellent. Never forget the Under Arm incident!

      Now, sorry to be a bore but I have copied my rant about Foodstuff’s from yesterday’s Open Mike here. I am hoping that the spotlight will shine on them as well and I really hope suppliers come forward.

      A”lthough Jone’s allegation that Countdown has been pressuring suppliers to meet the shortfall in profit when a line doesn’t “perform” is a bit out there, I’d fully believe it (and look forward to the truth coming out) going on my my experience working for a supplier to Foodstuff’s.

      I have a feeling Foodstuff’s will be packing themselves right now, just a little………

      Just a couple of example of lose/win scenario’s:

      Suppliers pay all freight costs to get their goods to either the supermarket or distribution centre

      Suppliers carry the cost of item’s specialed

      Suppliers pay for putting in a display end – the space at the end of an aisle is rented to them for the time they carry their stock there, usually a week

      Suppliers are often obliged to provide privately contracted poorly paid casualised merchandisers to fill the shelves when the order comes in – the supermarket keeps costs down on the cost of hiring permanent shelf fillers. (I’ve also gone on about the the disadvantages of merchandising, many times before so no need to repeat)

      I can’t prove this or provide a link – it’s just from my experience of dealing with grocery buyers. All of the above is considered standard practice and Countdown does it too. But at least they aren’t actively engaged in Union busting and do have reasonable collective agreements in most stores and of course the distribution centres (covered that one last week)

      Countdown is the enemy at the moment because of the Australian connection but were we to look into Foodstuff’s practices I wouldn’t be surprised if there were similarities in their way of doing business. Either way I hope investigations lead to recommendations to make it a more level playing field for suppliers and workers and ultimately to regulation to ensure it.

      I do shop at New World to support our local suppliers and keep NZ profits on shore but really it’s the better of two evils. Otherwise I try to purchase some goods at our local organic shop which charges much less for some items.”

      PS: My observations are from 2007, it will not have improved since then.

      • karol 10.2.1

        Sue Kedgely is also asking for an investigation into supermarket buying practices, for Coundown, plus for the supermakrket duopoly.

        I asked the Minister of Justice to initiate a Commerce Commission investigation into supermarket practices five years ago, and presented him with a range of allegations about dubious tactics that supermarkets were using with suppliers, but he said there wasn’t enough evidence to justify an inquiry at that time. So I’m hoping that an inquiry will finally happen.
        Whatever the veracity of Shane Jones’ specific allegation, I’m informed that relationships between Progressive Enterprises and their suppliers have deteriorated significantly over the past year.
        There are also wider complaints about the supermarket duopoly in New Zealand. Our grocery retail sector is the most concentrated in the world, with just two supermarket chains, Foodstuffs and Progressive, controlling around 95 per cent of our grocery retail sector.

        This gives them enormous market power which they can use to set the rules, dictate conditions and squeeze more and more money out of suppliers. Suppliers cannot refuse their requests, or afford to get offside with them, no matter how unfair they may appear to be, as supermarkets are, effectively, the gateway to the consumer in New Zealand.

        According to numerous suppliers I have spoken to, supermarkets routinely use a variety of trading practices that I believe are unfair.

        • Tracey

          “but he said there wasn’t enough evidence to justify an inquiry at that time. ”

          he means it hasnt got enough publicity yet

        • Rosie

          Thanks for posting that karol, lots of interesting reading in Kedgely’s article, none of which surprises me sadly. I miss having Sue Kedgely around. She was great at keeping on the case around food safety, farmed animal welfare as I’ve been reminded, supermarket trading practices.

          And ew, I have to say some of the creepiest men I’ve ever had the displeasure of dealing with have been supermarket grocery buyers.

          There’s several examples but one that is up there in category one creepiness was the buyer with the girlie pictures and calendars all around his office. (there were two sightings of offices with girlie pictures but this one particular man was awful). I was called into his office after waiting with the other reps in the waiting room queue.

          As I entered I was a bit shocked and momentarily dazed by all the nudity and was wondering what kind of ERA clause this contravened. When I turned to him I gave him my best evil frozen glare and he just grinned and looked me up and down. I was so angry (and feeling a bit threatened) I was shaking but just had to get on with the job of selling a new line.

          There’s a lot of women reps on the road and I wonder just how many lose their power on a daily basis because of dealing with men like that. These are not likely the kind of issues that will be uncovered during a Commerce Commission enquiry, if one does indeed go ahead.

          • Ron

            I miss her as well. She was a breath of fresh air in political circles. in my opinion the two Sue’s Nandor and Keith were the life blood of the Green party and I despaired when the change managment team took over and reorganised the party in what they thought was the new future. The Greens are sorely in need of the kind of social activism those four brought to politics.
            Sue Kedgely’s piece in paper today show that she is still following up on her passions she is just not getting paid for it.

            I miss having Sue Kedgely around. She was great at keeping on the case around food safety, farmed animal welfare as I’ve been reminded, supermarket trading practices.

          • RedBaronCV

            I was out and about a few weeks ago and while waitng to see someone picked up some sort of food trade publication, had a bit signed by Katherine Rich in it, that actually discussed the behaviour of stores towards reps, merchandisers, in negative terms. Caught my attention as unusual for that sort of glossy pub. Can only infer that the behaviour has been pretty bad., . Can’t seem to source it on the internet though

        • Tracey

          John key made the following statement today about supermarkets and suppliers….

          “‘‘Everyone accepts that when it comes to small suppliers and dominant supermarkets, there’s a power imbalance, and I suspect when the inquiry takes place there will be suppliers that say that they feel the pressure of that power imbalance. Whether that actually marries up to what Mr Jones is saying is quite a different issue.’’…

          “Key told reporters said that New Zealand food producers reported to him that the supermarkets drove ‘‘hard bargains’’ but he believed that ‘‘by and large’’ this benefited consumers through lower prices, and nothing untoward had been drawn to his attention. ”

          Now, think about individual employment contracts John.

          It has enough publicity now, so John has a change of mind….

      • greywarbler 10.2.2

        That’s great to know Rosie. I know some of that stuff, and believe you will be completely right about the rest. I suggested to Skinny that it seemed too big to take on everything at once. But when it’s ‘The Man’ you’re confronting, often your own people are as bad as the others.

        I have talked to some of the merchandisers. One got a telling off from the boss and franchise holder as I stood near, for coming in too late, outside the time allocated. I thought she probably needs the money and has other commitments that she has to fit in, perhaps they overlap. She looked tired and it was sad to see, knowing the struggle that many people have to manage to earn and do all they need to meet the duties of their roles. (This was in New World too.)

        • Rosie

          Hi warbly. That’s nice that you spoke with the merchie who got the telling off. Yes, they often work several merchandising jobs to make ends meet and they work odd hours so jobs would overlap sometimes.

          Cambell Live did a great job of highlighting Countdown’s shortcomings last night, as well as the interview with Jones, and the Countdown C.E, or whatever he was.

          I hope they get around to looking into the poor working conditions of merchies and the whole business of supermarkets outsourcing their work on to the supplier. Although, I did see that in the case of Countdown you were charged an “administration fee” for having supermarket staff stock your product on the shelf, so another way of passing on the wage bill to the supplier.

          • greywarbler

            Hi Rosie
            I have thought of another thing I’ve heard of. That is, the supermarket may not allow the supplier to sell to anyone else, so that it becomes a straitjacket for their business. I don’t know what would happen if the supplier branched out under another brand. And if they did sell to others under their own brand, could the supermarket then sue them for breach of contract.

            I was writing about the Treaty of Waitangi and which version of the Treaty was given prominence, English or Maori, and I remembered the contra proferentem rule which in international law, probably not in business law, in a dispute gives undue cognisance to the lesser partner, in a contract. So I wonder if they could take on the supermarkets whether the suppliers might be able to tilt the consideration their way, seeing it is a very unequal playing field.

            Then there is the in house brand that copies a popular item that a supplier hs devised and built up, then it makes it for the s/mt, then the supermarket only stocks it’s own brand and then your brand is no longer seen, and the supermarket has acquired part of your business without paying anything. I think that happens often.

      • Tracey 10.2.3

        why would national give a shit, they favour bullying… they even practice it (Bennett… Collins)

        small supplier in power differential with large supermarket = single employee in large company in a huge power differential

        the fiood council is kinda like a union for suppliers… that council must be legislated against, surely?

      • Skinny 10.2.4

        Thanks Rosie, Greywarbler, Karol and others. Just doing my bit 🙂 your quite right about the loss of Sue Kedgely such a outstanding producer for the Greens and the Left. As pointed out she was the first to expose the supermarket racketeering 5 years ago.

         Of course Trader Key and his cronies ideologically supported  the scamming then and up until now, by pretending there hasn’t been anything untoward going on, apart from ‘robust’ negotiations.  

        Chalking today’s little number (protest & heat clip) as further erosion to Mr Invisibles teflon coated kit. All those toots & waves from his former voters in their posh vehicles, this was despite clearly visible Labour supporters in their LP tee shirts. Things are looking wonderful for the Left by today’s response from the punters.

        Here is the video link below. If it was a film the credit roll would show Sue Kedgely as Key’s source of information. It’s pretty much word for word copying a SK recommendation. Note damage control Joyce checking Key gets his lines correct. Progressive Enterprises got a good tune up with the month long scrap over terms & conditions for employees, a great effort from a collective union campaign.

         Foodstuff your on notice in this regard, I am hearing very disturbing tales of slave like terms & conditions for their employees. While I hear the Pak & Slave up the road having been boosting 
        about the upsurge in customers. Your turns coming soon! 



  11. bad12 11

    From the Herald online this morning it appears that No-No Pay for teachers is still just that, and, after six month’s of Steven Joyce having taken over the troubled Novo-Pay issue it aint fixed but Mr Fixer in the form of Joyce has managed to keep such news suppressed from the public for the past few months,

    Begs the question don’t it, just how far into the pocket of National are the New Zealand media…

  12. ianmac 12

    Re-jig of National Radio. John Drinnan says:
    “Shake-up an attempt to reverse broadcaster’s drift into irrelevance but changes stray into fixing what isn’t broken

    Fingers crossed that Radio New Zealand chief executive Paul Thompson has corrected Morning Report’s drift into irrelevance.

    Changes at Morning Report were confirmed this week and more revamps are ahead for other shows, as well as further steps to improve Radio New Zealand’s approach to the news.

    One source described the new approach as “journalism rather than reporting stories”.

    It would result in the public broadcaster being less “reactive”, says another insider, adding that problems in RNZ’s news coverage resulted from a combination of factors.

    National Party media strategists had ignored RNZ because they wrongly believed its listeners did not vote National.

    Radio NZ had responded with a too narrow focus on Nationals’ critics, the insider says……”

    Funny if National Ministers start appearing on Nat Radio, in an election year?
    Journalism he says will be the new look?
    Watch this space!

    • greywarbler 12.1

      Fingers crossed that Radio New Zealand chief executive Paul Thompson has corrected Morning Report’s drift into irrelevance….
      ‘reverse broadcaster’s drift into irrelevance’…
      In my view, an important challenge will be to draw Cabinet ministers back to Morning Report, so it does not become overly focused on Opposition arguments. That should be easier in an election year.'(says John Drinnan)

      ‘Irrelevance’ what does he mean exactly? List 10 criticisms and examples.
      What would be relevant? List 10 important headings and methods of achieving such relevance.

      One source described the new approach as “journalism rather than reporting stories”.
      It would result in the public broadcaster being less “reactive”, says another insider, adding that problems in RNZ’s news coverage resulted from a combination of factors.

      What are the combination of factors? List ten in order of importance.
      And what is the writer’s take on the difference of journalism as opposed to ‘reporting stories’.
      No comments of interpretation, opinion allowed?
      The stories would concentrate on giving the bare facts with no effort to set in context, indicate complexity, or background leading to the present happening – is that it?

      National Party media strategists had ignored RNZ because they wrongly believed its listeners did not vote National.
      Radio NZ had responded with a too narrow focus on Nationals’ critics, the insider says……”

      There is that Royal Entitlement coming through. National is The Sovereign entity of NZ, and King John the Cunning its Prized Leader, and We Shall have control over every organ of information advising the populace of the correct understanding of everything they observe around them. And this will always indicate a positive viewpoint of all activity or non-activity in the country, for the sake of national unity and productivity.

      • ianmac 12.1.1

        Fingers crossed that Radio New Zealand chief executive Paul Thompson has corrected Morning Report’s drift into irrelevance….
        Sounds a bit ominous to me. All that is missing is, and it is for your own good. You will thank us for cleaning it all up for the good of the people.”

      • greywarbler 12.1.2

        And further on Radionz.
        Looking at the John Drinnan piece that ianmac has links for. There are a lot of loaded comments that imply unrevealed information that Drinnan has.
        Such as “entrenched bureaucracy” – does that mean people who have been a long time in their job with deep experience and knowledge and commitment to it. It sounds rather like a jab in the nature of people who have gone to sleep and are out of touch with today, which I don’t think applies to RadioNZ and probably no one person there.

        More changes are to come. After a long period of paralysis under former CEO Peter Cavanagh, Thompson has made a lot of headway in a short time in an entrenched bureaucracy….

        He understands the need for mainstream media to be a broad church, open to many views….
        But across the day RNZ has not always delivered on those aims, in my view, ignoring large swathes of the potential audience. Sports coverage is an afterthought, for example, and small businesspeople hardly exist.

        Sports are well covered, in an unbalanced way by Radionz I consider. Unbalanced because there already is too much of it. I don’t know what Drinnan is dribbling about here. It’s for commercial radio to give us the latest on the sports people, and their daily doings, and their highs and lows, their wins and losses and so stunningly boringly on…. Isn’t there even a sports radio station. Let them concentrate on that.

        Instead we could have more about what is being done on the land. More Country Calendar type things in our agriculturally focussed country.

        And what is Drinnan’s gripe here? After a long period of paralysis under former CEO Peter Cavanagh
        I agree that I want to hear more from the beating heart of NZ commerce and what can be done to assist their continuation and expansion and employment opportunities. Though I already know quite a bit from listening to the station now, but want that expanded.

        Prime Minister John Key has preferred patsy interviews on commercial radio over facing up to questions from the public broadcaster. Relations became particularly sour when Cavanagh adopted a bunker mentality over funding.

        Another loaded comment ‘bunker mentality over funding’. As if Drinnan is writing just for people in the know, who will understand this term as if it was a code word. There is a back story here which needs at least another sentence to give guidance. Or would that be an example of journalism over mere reporting as mentioned elsewhere in Drinnan’s column?

        Drinnan comments earlier that Nat pollies label RadioNZ as Radio Labour, and refers to Key snubbing them and instead fronting patsy questions on commercial radio. Yet if this is not satisfactory, why would Key want harder, more pointed questions on RadioNZ?

        Does Drinnan consider that RadioNZ should be the ones asking the patsy questions? That RadioNZ should do whatever it needs to receive the PM’s attention and comments – ingratiate themselves maybe?

        • idlegus

          absolutely agree about the sport thing! you can’t get more narrow focused than sports. i couldn’t give a toss about any sport actually, it all seems the same to me, & there are other radio stations that play nothing but sport.

    • Ron 12.2

      I am all in favour of the changes to afternoon programme the only thing I dislike is pushing Mora off on to Scarry Mary’s show. Is he an attempt to soften her interviews. A few of his laughs every time the subject gets serious should do the trick.
      I would have dumped Mora and leave Mary show as it is.
      As for the panel show. Dump that as well. It is just a vehicle for right wing to get more air time

      • PapaMike 12.2.1

        Agreed Ron.

        What on earth can Mora contribute to Mary’s first class programme ?
        Nothing of any use.
        Cannot understand RNZ’s move in this = crazy

      • Karen 12.2.2

        I agree absolutely. Checkpoint is the only news I listen too because it is the broadcast news that isn’t full of trivia and soft interviews. Jim Mora has nearly all right wing people on his panel – it may as well be talk back for the amount of prejudice and misleading information that appears there. Josie Pagani claims she is left wing but she is at best middle of the road. If National Party MPs don’t want to be interviewed by Mary then that’s their choice. There are plenty of other avenues for them to have unchallenging interviews on other media.

      • phillip ure 12.2.3

        i don’t think mora should go from afternoons..

        ..his show just needs a re-jig..and a panel cleanout/re-think..

        ..phillip ure..

  13. Sanctuary 13

    “…Banning rap group Odd Future from New Zealand had nothing to do with the band’s lyrics and wasn’t a decision “made lightly”, says a Border Operations Manager…”

    Am I the only person outraged that some low level pen pusher has the power to ban whoever they like for the Orwellian offense of being a “Threat to public order”?


    • fender 13.1

      “Immigration New Zealand said it didn’t ban them because of their sexually violent lyrics, but because they have incited violence during performances.”

      “Ms Urwin said there was also an incident in Australia in which the rappers used a concert and Twitter to urge fans to harass a woman who objected to their act.”

      “Unfortunately, the lead singer using his Twitter account and through some of the things he said on stage encouraged his fans to basically harass and stalk this woman. She received a lot of threats to her personal safety and, again, it’s not really behaviour we want to see here in New Zealand.”


    • Murray Olsen 13.2

      I’m quite happy for them to be kept out of the country and not allowed to perform, but I would like to see this by way of a union boycott on little scumbags who promote rape. I’d like to see Kiwis refuse to acknowledge their existence, maybe beginning with industrial action by airline staff. I’d like to see hotel staff refuse to book them in. I’d like to see female electricians cutting off the power to their microphones (It could always be connected to something else). Of course, none of that is now possible within the law because secondary action is prohibited. Just one more way that our governments have acted to prevent solidarity.

      I disagree violently with the message of their music and have absolutely no desire to fight for their right to play it, not even to the extent of a mildly increased heart rate. I’d rather put effort into Teina Pora getting his message heard. Fuck them, but we should be the ones stopping them, not some low level pen pusher.

  14. Pascal's bookie 14

    Oh, so the PM and WO talk often then. Isn’t that a total non surprise with the tipline running hot and Ede’s cellphone and a top drawer full of dirt. Tricky Nats.

  15. and should you receive an email from one ‘david garrett’..(remember him..?..no..?..)

    ..don’t open it..

    ..virus-laden spam is being sent out in his name..

    ..(this has been a public service announcement..)

    ..phillip ure..

  16. Philj 16

    Radio New Zealand has been slipping into trivia, and becoming more tabloid and sensationalist with graphic details of violence at court cases. Hyping and increasing business emphasis. We now get the Ozzy share market report! How many of the general public are interested in this? RNZ needs a big shake up, but I am worried it will head the way of TVNZ, just another shallow, crappy broadcaster.

  17. JanM 17

    Would I be right in thinking that all the comments against the banning of Odd Future are being made by men?
    It’s not that I’m accusing any of you of thinking like them, but you obviously don’t understand the constant fear that women in our society live with and how much it limits our lives. It makes it much worse when there is tacit approval of violence towards us by way of publicly acknowledging people who advocate it.
    Unless you walk a mile in my shoes….

    • Tracey 17.1

      “Stop Demand emailed Auckland councillors, criticising the decision to allow the group to perform at the Western Springs event.

      The email quoted several lyrics from Odd Future referencing rape.

      Founder Denise Ritchie said yesterday, before the ban, the council should have made a stand against allowing the group to perform.

      “It is astonishing that, in light of the nationwide outcry and soul-searching that arose over the Roast Busters’ incident, and the sexual callousness of some young men towards women, Auckland Council is about allow a group that glorifies rape and rape culture to perform on Council-owned property and at an `all ages’ event.””

      Freedom of expression has consequences. Their music is available, just a show cancelled… running the risk of cancellation is one consequence of their choice of type of expression.

    • karol 17.2

      I have just been reserving judgement on this issue. I think the best argument I’ve seen so far against not banning them is that there is as much misogyny expressed in the MSM by others in various ways – OF is just one among way too many. Better to raise awareness about such expressions of misogyny wherever they occcur.

      The reports about people advocating violence, including sexual violence, against a group that called for the banning is more worrying.

      • phillip ure 17.2.1

        so..ban a black rap group..(easy..!..eh..?..)

        ..(there is one woman in the group..but hey..!..)

        ..but allow..on the same bill..

        ..a white eminem..?

        ..whose lyrics are arguably ‘worse’ than the rappers..?


        ..and guess who’s coming soon..?

        ..the rolling stones..(..’under my thumb’..anyone..?..)

        ..this is about freedom of speech/censorship..

        ..and a long history of ‘white people’ being horrified by ‘black’ artists..

        ..and if a band/group can be banned..because some people/doris-from-fucken-palmerston-north/glenfield..don’t like their lyrics..

        ..it will be a long time between concerts..

        ..(personally..should celine dion/barry manilow threaten to tour..doing duets..

        ..i’ll be emailing/setting up facebook pages..)

        ..this is a joke..

        ..but not a funny one..

        ..and a special false-equivalence/pop-psychology award for those claiming those opposing this banning..ipso facto..

        ..must be supporters of rape..


        ..are you serious..?

        ..phillip ure..

        • karol

          phil – where did I call for banning OF?

          Try reading what I wrote before to go off all aggressive.

          Agreed about Eminem and I was thinking to add a comment about them.

          I wouldn’t ban them because of their lyrics. There are a whole lot of other artistes that could be banned on such grounds – as I said above.

          I’m still reserving judgement because of reports about inciting violence, rape etc and other alleged incidents that have little to do with the actual songs/raps-

          As here:

          At a record signing in Boston in 2011 fans had been crowding a street and police turned up.
          Urwin said Immigration NZ had reports about the incident from law enforcement agencies.

          “I’m not at liberty to disclose the exact source, or what they contained.”

          The second incident taken into account by Immigration NZ happened in Australia last year, when a woman from a group campaigning against Odd Future was targeted by the lead singer and received threatening Twitter messages from fans.

          “The actions in that they were targeting a particular individual, a named individual, and singling her out for retribution, yes, that’s inciting violence, yes obviously that does play a very big part in our decision, and it did,” Urwin said.

          “When you actually single people out and encourage other people to target them and their personal safety becomes at risk then that is crossing a line and that is not behaviour that we can have in New Zealand,” she said.

          • phillip ure

            @ karol..misplaced comment..it was a general comment..not specifically directed @ you..

            ..apologies for causing misunderstanding..

            ..phillip ure..

          • phillip ure

            @ karol..

            ..kathryn ryan this morn had the perth incident being the lead singer from a band who supported of..not the lead singer of of..as alleged..

            ..and ‘we can’t be told’ exactly what they said..in america..to incite violence..?

            ..we don’t even get to hear the words..?..(would they ‘hurt’ us..?..)

            ..so..add those two together..and what do you get..?

            ..as a case mounted against of..?

            ..not much..


            ..phillip ure..

            • karol

              The suppressed police reports may have contained reports of actions not just words. Hard to know without the evidence one way or another.

              RNZ does not specifically report that about the lead singer in it’s print reports. Which interview was it? – sorry was loking at Morning Repot which has about 3 interviews.

              As I said, I’m reserving judgement – following the reports. Seems to me you are quick to defend the group, rather than wait to see all the evidence one way or another.

              • @ karol..ryan made the point in an interview-question..with the immigration appartchik who did the deed..

                ..um..!..anyway..all that to one side..

                ..historical reports of band-singers inciting violence..?

                ..a reason/justification for banning today..?


                ..dave dobbyn..?..anyone..?

                ..most punk bands..?

                ..the rolling stones..?

                ..the list goes on and on..

                ..and as you yrslf admit..we have seen/there is no ‘evidence’..

                ..are they being banned for having a general/all-round ‘bad-attitude’..?

                ..and we haven’t had a moral panic for awhile..eh..?

                .(.do you remember what the last one was..?

                ..no..neither do i..)

                ..so we must be overdue..

                ..and here it is..

                ..right on schedule..

                ..phillip ure..

                • karol

                  phil – the charge was inciting violence against an individual – there is some evidence – I have yet to see evidence to refute the claim.

                  Waiting for more evidence.

            • karol

              Kathryn Ryan interview with Immigration spokeswoman:

              [audio src="http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/ntn/ntn-20140214-0923-immigration_nz_denies_visas_to_us_rappers_odd_future-048.mp3" /]

              Says the band incited others to violence against an individual via twitter. Nothing about it coming from the lead singer from another band.

            • karol

              So is Tyler the Creator part of OF still or not?

              Guardian article on the Aussie incident where Tyeler incited violence against a blogger campaigning against him.

              Talitha Stone, a 24-year-old blogger and campaigner, says she felt “petrified” following “terrifying and disturbing” abuse which she says was levelled at her by US rapper Tyler, the Creator.

              She was at the concert when Tyler abused her and recorded it. Video at the link but it’s hard to hear what’s being said.

              “My heart was absolutely pounding as I heard him start to mention me,” she told Guardian Australia.

              “I was petrified. I was standing among the crowd of people who were chanting along with threats towards me.”

              • weka

                They’ve been refused a visa for the purposes of performing in NZ. They haven’t been banned (you can still buy their music right?). On what you have just described karol, and the other examples of inciting violence, refusal of the visa seems reasonable to me, given that their inciting of violence happens at concerts.

                On the face of it they’re like kids who’ve had their way too much and have gone beyond the bounds of humane behaviour, and now someone is telling them to pull their head in. About time by the sounds of it. Artistic freedom, my arse.

        • JanM

          Oh, smart move – so now it’s racism, not sexism!
          Fantastic – reminds me of a guy I knew in the 60s from Nigeria who used to go on a racist rant every time a girl he tried to hit on turned him down at a party – can’t win can we!!!

          • phillip ure

            @ jan m..

            yr fascinating 60’s anecdote to one side..

            ..of course there are racial/race-fear undertones to this banning..

            ..and ‘sexism’..?

            ..you want them banned for their ‘sexism’..?

            ..bloody hell..!..

            ..which artists wouldn’t you ban..?

            ..using/on those grounds..

            ..and..just to give us some perspective here..

            ..care to list three or four of yr music-faves.?..(60’s lingo..see..!..)

            ..from those 60’s..?..or wherever..?

            ..phillip ure..

            • JanM

              It seems the first recorded use of ‘faves’ was in 1938, but it either had a relapse in the 60’s or still hadn’t reached Dunedin by then – not part of my vocab then or now, I’m afraid.
              In view of my initial comments I find your response specious and ingenuous, and if you don’t understand why perhaps have a chat with someone with a higher emotional IQ

        • fender

          The reason their visas were revoked isn’t because of their colour or their lyrics. Inciting riots, making threats via Twitter and on stage, plus encouraging others to threaten critics were the reasons given.

          And Phillip, can you answer this ?

          • phillip ure

            @ fender..

            ..answered above in response to karol..

            ..phillip ure..

            • fender

              Phillip, I was hoping you could answer this: What’s the attraction in hearing about gratuitous violence towards woman?

              • @ fender.

                …i’ve never heard them..

                ..and that’s not the point..

                ..(nick cave/kylie minogue..?..that murder-ballad thing..?..

                ..he murders a woman on the edge of a river..and more..!

                ..now there’s grounds for banning..)

                ..and..who are yr favourite musical-artists..?

                ..should/shall we do a lyrics/life-sanitation exercise on them..?


                ..this is about freedom of speech..

                ..if someone wants to come here and scream ‘fuck you’ continuously at the audience..

                ..and if people want to pay to see that..?

                ..i couldn’t care less..
                ..and neither should anyone else..

                ..and this comes from the exact same mindset that supported the banning of germaine greer when she came here..

                ..’cos she was ‘obscene’/swearing..

                ..the censors can just fuck off..i say..

                ..give them an inch..

                ..and they’ll take a fucken mile..

                ..phillip ure..

                • fender

                  I can see your point, and as I said earlier I’m against censorship as such but there has to be some boundaries somewhere. (And remember they have been banned for reasons other than their lyrics)

                  I paint pictures, but if I exhibited works containing written (think McCahon) text about sick rape fantasies and violence towards woman, should I be allowed to, even if I was the gallery owner?

                  • karol

                    Reminds me of this fetus earring case. I happened to be a teacher with a group of students who we took to the Old Bailey when the case was beign tried. Sat in the gallery and watched some of the proceedings:

                    During the 1984 exhibition of freeze-dried sculptures in London, UK, Gibson was given two dehydrated human fetuses from an anatomy professor. They were 10 weeks in development and had been dehydrated for 20 years. Gibson re-hydrated both fetuses, freeze-dried them and attached them as earrings to a female mannequin head. The sculpture was titled Human Earrings. They were exhibited at the Young Unknowns Gallery in south London in December 1987.
                    On 11 April 1988, Gibson and the gallery owner, Peter Sylveire, were formally charged with the common law offences of exhibiting a public nuisance and outraging public decency.[11]

                    They were convicted and this was upheld on appeal.

        • risildowgtn

          That band were refused entry for their homophobic hatred plus the group is well known for “their deeply, deeply offensive and sickening lyrics which incite their fans to cross the line to act out sexually explicit and violent actions against women.”

          and also this


          In one instance, a police officer was hospitalised following a riot incited by Odd Future.” It says the group and its performances are a “potential threat to public order.”

          I suggest you get your facts right

          • phillip ure


            so why weren’t you out picketing eminem..?

            ..as he has far more of those lyrics..

            ..than odd future do..

            ..once again..

            ..you reek of hypocrisy/double-standards..

            ..phillip ure..

  18. the-best-ever-tolkien/rings-critique…ever..

    ..reportedly from his compatriot..the poet w.h. auden..

    “..When told that Tolkien has written a new book –

    – he replies:


    More fucking elves – I suppose..”

    phillip ure..

  19. Tim 20

    Jeeeeez P.U! The ‘nicest man on Earth’ just read out one of your emails and deigned to acknowledge your planet on this erf.
    I hope you’re feeling priviledged. Might be time to tackle the world’s most work-life balanced regular gal Rinny. (Make some allowances though – she’s Kethluk, with a view of the world that makes her think she in-touch with the real folk).
    If you strum up a good enough relationship with her – you could even get a ‘spot’ on NointaNoon (provided, that is you don’t displace any other of the “go-toos” her and producer have on their list)
    Gorgeous Darling

  20. tricledrown 21

    Philip its about the rise of neoliberalism and only has t/rollz.
    Syrlands BM Damien grunt have all been contracted and shonkey is the shapeshifty meglomaniac reptile .

    • McFlock 22.1

      If we do not treat ‘Brown Sugar’ as a defence of slavery and sexual violence, it is because assume that Sir Mick is wearing a persona when he performs the song. We recognise that he is giving his voice and mannerisms to a character, a monster who belongs to a monstrous period of history.

      I’d suggest that even if the issue were as compartmentalised as you suggest (and didn’t involve real-life incitement to violence etc) the key difference is the obvious delineation (or lack thereof) between the artistic character assumed by the performer, and the honest attitudes of the performer. Not ethnicity.

    • Draco T Bastard 22.2

      Haven’t heard of The Stones inciting riots.

      • idlegus 22.2.1

        taking the piss? altamont….but i guess that was 40 years ago & they hardly incited i guess. but still, long bow could be drawn & all that.

      • Bill 22.2.2

        Monterey – 1969. Hells Angels hired as security by the Rolling Stones. Whole thing apparently a clusterfuk and the Angels killed a concert goer.

        Maybe not ‘inciting’ a riot per-se, but,fuck, y’know?

        • weka

          Yeah, and in 2054 Odd Future will be welcome to apply for a visa with their history of not inciting riots for 4 decades.

          I can’t remember the details of what happened at Monterey, and to what extent the Rolling Stones were culpable. That aside, there is a clear case this week of a band that in recent times intentionally incites violence against women. It’s not an accident or mismanagement.

        • phillip ure

          chris knox cutting himself on stage..?

          ..hello sailor going on stage smacked out of their heads..?

          ..where do you draw the line..?

          ..and i love/laugh at the current moral-panic about justin beiber..

          ..beiber is drag-racing rental cars..(now..c;mon..!..who hasn’t done that..?..)

          ..and is smoking pot..(say no more..)

          ..care to look back at the previous decades cavalcade of excess-lives lived by rock stars..etc..?

          ..then you realise just how tame beibers scting out is..

          ..phillip ure..

          • weka

            Concerns about rape culture aren’t moral panic. This isn’t about morality. It’s about some people using their privilige to damage other people.

        • Draco T Bastard

          You mean Altamont and the whole day seems to have been a cluster fuck but not, specifically, due to anything the Rolling Stones did.

  21. Tim 23



    So Key has admitted that he speaks to Whaleoil regularly and that it was his source for knowing Peters visited KDC. Anyone surprised?

    Sorry if already posted elsewhere.

  22. ianmac 24

    Thanks Tim. Wonder where Mr Slater got his news from?

  23. weka 25

    Green Party announcement of their new energy plan on Sunday, to be live streamed.

    Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand Green Party of Aotearoa New Zealand

    Join us online this Sunday at 1pm

    Green Party Co-leader Russel Norman will announce a key plank of the Green Party’s Election 2014 energy policy this Sunday, as part of his keynote address to the Green Party campaign conference in Auckland. “People are paying too much for their power. Electricity prices have gone up 22 per cent under the National Government. The Greens are committed to fixing this, and delivering cheaper, cleaner, safer power to New Zealanders,” said Dr Norman. The announcement will build on previous energy announcements from the Greens, including NZ Power, which will fix the broken market by creating a single buyer and save families around $300 a year. Dr Norman will also look back at the Green Party’s achievements outside Government, and discuss prospects for Election 2014.


  24. greywarbler 26

    I was a bit concerned about further news about RadioNZ and what the journalist John Drinnan meant. Ianmac supplied the link with his comment in Open Mike.

    Open mike 14/02/2014

    Not many people seem to have commented.

    But there were many comments about the banning of a vicious-mouthed bunch who spew hate, and encourage violence. This was largely fuelled by phillip ure, and he always is interesting. But not more important than Radionz and whether it might be spayed or castrated or not.

    Then there was a lot of interest in Key and that he spoke about being in regular contact with Cameron Slater. (Verbal I am sure.) Everyone likes letting off steam at those two.

    There is a lot to keep an eye on and discuss this year. If we get exercised about fleeting matters, and attention goes onto, sexual matters, pollies sleaziness, and other normal aberrations, we will end up with even more of
    the same at the end of the year.

    These are the topics that got discussed today with numbers of comments at about 7p.m.

    Key & Cameron Slater 4.30pm

    Dotcom Snoopers
    4.19 pm

    Polity: data on moral mandates in Europe
    No comments

    LB: Rich Schools Poor Schools

    Herding Cats: Leadership, authoritarianism and Nationals “education”? policy

    Open Mike
    7 am

    Education always gets good discussion. But after that the outrage about Key and Slater and snooping took hold. Outrage is easy. Slogging away at facts and examining policy, even briefly, with thoughtful opinion is vital. Polity on how our MMP might work out looks encouraging. So equal energy into strategy-in, matching out-rage, will fuel some good thinking and be sustainable for this hard year. Can we do it?

    • Bill 26.1

      Just live with the fact that some posts are easier for people to comment on than others. It doesn’t necessarily mean that the more involved ones are overlooked/ unread or not making an impact. I’d put ‘Local Bodies’ post from today under the latter category – clear, concise, well written and…well, what is there to say beyond something like ‘I agree’?

      • lprent 26.1.1

        ..well, what is there to say beyond something like ‘I agree’?

        I agree. Besides even the most righteous advocate of private charter education would have to be cringing at the He Puna Marama Trust’s charter school ticket clipping at more than 4x the cost of the state schools. Especially when they got the state schools to do the work and clipped the taxpayers ticket on the way through.

        This is *exactly* what was predicted. And what Local Bodies was talking about.

      • karol 26.1.2

        The Local Bodies post also has some important corroborating links, backing up his arguments.

      • greywarbler 26.1.3

        It isn’t for me to live with ‘that some posts are easier for people to comment on than others’.
        The point is that – can people drag themselves away from the Moral Outrage Rules OK!and Single-Issue approach in election year? Is there time taken to study whatever information is being gathered by dedicated people who want to understand the facts? There is a lot to think about and not just one way of going about everything as some here seem to project.

        Perhaps we do need ‘likes’ for the comments so that those who do the work and present information, know that they have been looked at and the work read and absorbed, and importantly that interest has been taken, even if no-one feels it is necessary to respond with a plus, an icon or a comment.

        By the way I like my new gravatar thing. Can I keep it?

    • karol 26.2

      The revelation from John Key re-conversations with Slater today was politically quite an important one. Mr Nice Guy Key, and his distance from the out-sourced right wing smear bloggers are a significant part of the Nat’s election strategies.

      I thought it was important to record it for the archive (hence my transcript) because there is a danger it will slip away from public view – with some help from the MSM editors. I was trying to check John Key’s statements in the video today, with what he said on 3 News – last night I think. The 3 News video has already disappeared – and the link to it from Scoop now no longer works.

      Sometimes it’s also important to have a record in the archive.

  25. Draco T Bastard 27

    It looks like the PMs $30m gift to Rio Tinto has come back to bite him on the butt.

  26. Scott 28

    The ‘riot’ Odd Future are supposed to have incited is a joke, but the verbal abuse of one of their critics at a concert in Oz is more serious. Tyler the Creator harangued her as a ‘fucking bitch’ and dedicated a song with a line about punching a woman to her. This makes him a nasty character, but does it count as incitement to violence? I note he was not charged with incitement.
    I don’t agree with the idea that verbally abusing someone in public should ipso facto be illegal; if it were, I’d be facing prosecution for shouting abuse of George Bush whilst burning his effigy in Queen Street in 2003.

    We can debate the details of the incident in Australia, but what concerns me most is the apparently widespread belief that the songs of Odd Future are somehow ontologically distinct from a track like ‘Brown Sugar’ or a TV series like Breaking Bad, in that their producers and consumers are automatically considered supportive of their subject matter. I can’t see how such a belief can be based on anything but the paranoia about young black men that has been part and parcel of the War on Drugs.

  27. Scott 29

    Here’s a comment that Viv Kent, who wrote a superb PhD thesis on sexual violence at the U of A, put on fb after I posted a link to the blog post I did on Odd Future:

    ‘I was thinking exactly this, Scott – Stray Cat Blues isn’t exactly a ‘dramatic monologue’! ‘I bet your mama don’t know that you scratch like that …’ Frank Ocean is occasionally part of Odd Future, too, and he’s been lauded for his enlightened stance over bisexuality. I think the attack on Odd Future is racist.’

    It’d be interesting to know more about Frank Ocean, and how the some of the more disturbing lyrics of Odd Future resonate with him.

  28. Jim on latest Fairfax Media Poll 30

    Latest Fairfax Media-Ipsos poll puts National on 49.4 per cent against 31.8 per cent for Labour and 10 per cent for the Greens.


    • One Anonymous Bloke 30.1

      Some “interesting” is happening with these Fairfax media polls.

      On the 28th October they reported that “…National is also up two points … winning the backing of more than 50 per cent of committed voters.

      … On the latest poll numbers National would win 63 seats in a 124 seat Parliament and be able to govern alone.”

      Today they say that “A new Fairfax Media-Ipsos poll puts National on 49.4 per cent…On those numbers National would win 64 seats…”

      My bold.

      So can we infer that the previous peak of “over 50%” is now below 50%, a continuation of the downward trend? Or can we infer that Fairfax media don’t know how to convert vote share into seats?

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