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Open mike 14/05/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, May 14th, 2013 - 123 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

123 comments on “Open mike 14/05/2013 ”

  1. Rogue Trooper 1

    from the box;
    “He’s not blessed with a lot of courage”…is Aaron Gilmore

    Mobile IT technology is promoting curvature of the spine; 600,000 people in New Zealand may be affected.

    Te Papa- “a fun fair”, “management have ripped the guts out of it”, “morale at an all-time low”.

    and from the U.N re world food shortages; let them eat “insects”, Grasshoppers.

    • prism 1.1

      In Terry Pratchett’s disc world books, dwarfs are very keen on rats. I think as I read Jingo at the moment, that we should mine Terry Pratchett’s tales of Ankh-Morpork and surrounding fiefdoms, for good ideas for running the country.

      Pratchett is sharp on identifying human behaviour and pretentiousness. He is subtle in revealing the impact of Lord Vetinari, a non-benign ruler who doesn’t make unreasonable laws that are only bound to be broken. (Such as prohibition of cannabis in NZ because some large offshore colonsingl entity has done so, although their previous foray into banning alcohol was a precursor to large criminal groups making billions and funding the training of large family businesses in extortion and other parasitic endeavours.)

      We might as well throw out the learned university tomes about economics and politics, as the practitioners just flick through these to the exciting bits where they can read about how to make money (and get beautiful women – don’t know why I put that in as I have never seen that in a textbook). Go for Terry Pratchett, he may be losing it, but then he had more of it than most of us at the beginning so he’s just coming to our level.

      And we are such a funny little country that I call on a NZ author to write a series based on us and become a well-loved subject for laughs around the world like Terry’s books. I have been looking at Tom Scott’s early book about his Muldoon days which is very good. But the people’s war and peace is what I’m thinking of, with us all being in as bit players. With some good guys that we can warm to.

      And some weirdos like Constable Downspout who is a gargoyle, valued for his ability to keep unblinking watch on street activity, and his simple dietary wants such as regular water and anything else that passes his eyes. Messages sent to him have to be protected from being eaten, or the pigeon that brings them. As Sergeant Detritus the troll points out, after all he is a gargoyle and he finks it’s his lunch. So pigeons and rats?

      • ghostrider888 1.1.1

        that is Od, prism, I was saving Omnianism for Clockie…but there you are. 😀 (ps, I haven’t read the books, time is fleeting, unless “presencing”)

        • Clockie 1.1.1.1

          I wondered what the cryptic “Om” in your comment in reply to mine on the C Hauti thread was about. Now I’m left wondering whether it was a shared joke or a sly dig. Oh no! Paranoia. 🙂

          At least I now know what an Omnian is..

        • prism 1.1.1.2

          ghost888
          Thanks for the link – it’s long and I haven’t finished yet. I liked this bit from the screed on the dwarfs beginnings.
          The geode hatched and from it emerged two brothers. One left the cave and saw the sky; he was the first Man and he was enlightened. The other went deeper into the cave; he was the first Dwarf, and he was endarkened.

        • prism 1.1.1.3

          Ghost888
          What is presencing? And what have you to say about eating grasshoppers and other insects for protein or perhaps rats and pigeons.

      • McFlock 1.1.2

        NZ isn’t so much Pratchett as Tom Sharpe (not stoppard, my bad)- a set variety of characters who have varying degrees of incompetence and peccadillos, with a plot enlivened by antics so outrageously incompetent that (while they might make a good story) nobody would ever believe they could happen in real life.

        Fuck sake, a nation-wide media assassination campaign to get to number 59 in the party list? A guy as “picturesque” as Gilmore or Banks?

  2. vto 2

    A curious thing was heard on te wireless Sunday pm which related to an interest in maoridom and its relations with others that I have. The debate at Vic University about the consttitution etc and in particular whether a republic should be chosen in replacement of the monarchy had four people, I imagine of high calibre in these matters, debating this. One was a professor, another another academic, another a law firm partner and another a can’t remember.

    The host, a Simon Price i think, asked a question around how the Treaty fits within such a particular question. Every single one of the guests refused to comment. The audience uttered a nervous giggle.

    I found this very telling. Whenever issues are raised around here of this world and its issues the accusation of being racist comes out pretty damn quick. Like a knee-jerk reaction. It is as if we are not permitted to question things in this arena, that it is taboo, that certain people are not qualified or of the correct race or ‘status’ to raise issues that are of concern to them. This claim is made by many people in New Zealand (that they are accused of being racist for simply talking race).

    This radio debate seemed to pretty strongly confirm this bias in our society. Nobody would dare utter their view. Every single one of the four people were too scared. It was abundantly clear. It was further reinforced by the nervous laughter in the crowd. They risked being labelled for expressing their view.

    New Zealand in this regard is immature and needs to grow up.

    • weka 2.1

      Did the panelists express why they wouldn’t comment?

      Vto, it’s not an issue of not being allowed to raise the points. It’s how it is done. Also, it’s not about the ‘race’ of the person asking the questions, it’s about their mana and their politics. Your politics on this matter appear to me to be against the interests of Maori and in favour of the dominant culture. That, IMO, is why you get accusations of racism.

      I would quite happily debate and discuss issues around Te Tiriti with you, but I never get past the feeling that your feelings about the treaty are inherently detrimental for tangata whenua (and thus, IMO, for us all). I know you don’t like being seen like that, I believe that you genuinely care about the issues. Nevertheless, there is this sticking point, and until it is resolved I can’t see how the discussion you want can happen or move forward.

      I also wonder if you would be better off being very up front about your politics in this, and not trying to make your arguments appear better to others than they are. Stand your ground, man (or woman) and say what you really want to (you can take that suggestion under advisement, because I know there are people here who like to smack others down rather than engage in open debate).

      • vto 2.1.1

        Hi weka. ” it’s not an issue of not being allowed to raise the points. It’s how it is done.” Well I would have thought that a panelist discussion at Victoria University broadcast on nat radio about the consitutional arrangements of New Zealand at the behest of the Maori Party is the most apt place in the entire known universe for such issues to be raised. Yet it was politely refused and nervously laughed at as explained. Perhaps it is worth pondering as to the reasons why …………………………

        The rest of your points concern me and that was not the point of my post. This is an issue that is frequenntly raised by many people – talk about race issues and be kneejerk labelled a racist. But seeing as you raise my particular penchant and manner a response is required…… I make a conscious effort to make my points clearly and succinctly. There is no motive. There is no tempering of my points to enhance some unspoken agenda. I make my points and stand my ground.

        And yes sure, my posts, at times, do work against the current status quo of tangata whenua and the related issues. That is because I see further injustice arising (and we have had enough of that in this country) around te tiriti. I see imbalance in our society and that is unsustainable (not speaking of the obvious maori and colonisation imbalance which is rightly being worked on). It is also the nature of debate – debate is usually around aspects of disagreement not agreement so a certain picture bias will appear. That works equally with others in the other direction of course as is evident on here at times.

        I dont understand your point about being upfront about my politics. I am. There is no secret.

        Finally, a brief background picture. Our family background branches have three which have been subjected to colonisation, systems of apartheid, oppression and brutality to such an extent that two of the three were forced from their homelands. This all in the last about 10 generations. Two in far off lands and one in aotearoa. These issues are raw and real. On top of a simple curiousity, I would doing an injustice to my forefathermothers if a blind eye was turned to these issues, not to mention those who follow…….

        that is it. that is all.

        • Draco T Bastard 2.1.1.1

          forefathermothers

          The word you were looking for is ancestors or possibly forebears.

        • marty mars 2.1.1.2

          Its good that you are upfront vto

          And yes sure, my posts, at times, do work against the current status quo of tangata whenua and the related issues. That is because I see further injustice arising (and we have had enough of that in this country) around te tiriti.

          What actually do you want to debate? Maybe a list would help.

        • weka 2.1.1.3

          The rest of your points concern me and that was not the point of my post. This is an issue that is frequenntly raised by many people – talk about race issues and be kneejerk labelled a racist.

          Citation needed for the last bit. I talk about race issues alot and don’t get labelled a racist. Why is that? My points about you could easily apply to many others who wish to challenge treaty issues in ways that support the dominant culture at the expense of Maori.

          Well I would have thought that a panelist discussion at Victoria University broadcast on nat radio about the consitutional arrangements of New Zealand at the behest of the Maori Party is the most apt place in the entire known universe for such issues to be raised. Yet it was politely refused and nervously laughed at as explained. Perhaps it is worth pondering as to the reasons why …………………………

          Not having heard it I have no idea why and wouldn’t begin to guess. I’m not sure how or why you came to the conclusions you did.

          I dont understand your point about being upfront about my politics. I am. There is no secret. I either missed or don’t remember your earlier comments on this topic. Lately I see implied argument rather than explicit. As marty suggests, why not make a list of the issues you want discussed, and then we will all know.

          For instance

          And yes sure, my posts, at times, do work against the current status quo of tangata whenua and the related issues. That is because I see further injustice arising (and we have had enough of that in this country) around te tiriti. I see imbalance in our society and that is unsustainable (not speaking of the obvious maori and colonisation imbalance which is rightly being worked on). It is also the nature of debate – debate is usually around aspects of disagreement not agreement so a certain picture bias will appear. That works equally with others in the other direction of course as is evident on here at times.

          I actually don’t know what you are talking about there. What imbalance? What injustice? What picture bias?

          btw, I didn’t suggest your arguments sometimes work against the current status quo of Maori (although I get that that is your intention). They appear to work against Maoridom in general.

          • weka 2.1.1.3.1

            The host, a Simon Price i think, asked a question around how the Treaty fits within such a particular question. Every single one of the guests refused to comment. The audience uttered a nervous giggle.

            I found this very telling. Whenever issues are raised around here of this world and its issues the accusation of being racist comes out pretty damn quick. Like a knee-jerk reaction. It is as if we are not permitted to question things in this arena, that it is taboo, that certain people are not qualified or of the correct race or ‘status’ to raise issues that are of concern to them. This claim is made by many people in New Zealand (that they are accused of being racist for simply talking race).

            Here is the link to the Constitutional Review series. Part 5. The question that vto refers to isn’t about the treaty. It is in fact asked by a member of the audience, John Ansell. You can guess the tenor of the question or hear it at around 44:45. The reason the the panelists don’t want to answer, and the reason the audience laughs, is because Ansell’s question is an attempt to distort the issues and hijack the discussion to suit his own agenda. The chair acknowledges this.

            The panelists later do discuss some treaty issues, mostly to do with how the Queen took or didn’t take responsibility for ensuring the treaty was honoured.

            http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/lecturesandforums/constitutional-review

            Vto, did you listen to part 3, Maori Aspirations, for perspective on the review and the treaty?

            btw, here’s a hint if you want to avoid being called racist when discussing the treaty: don’t reference out and out racists like Ansell.

            Shall I now take it that Ansell is representative of your politics and views?

            • weka 2.1.1.3.1.1

              Just bumping this up so people who read the convo yesterday can see that the issue being referred to was brought up by John Ansell.

              • vto

                Good on ya. Minor mistake but make no difference. The problem would seem to arise between us weka because I only heard the words, whereas you heard the words and all of this …
                “it’s not an issue of not being allowed to raise the points. It’s how it is done. Also, it’s not about the ‘race’ of the person asking the questions, it’s about their mana and their politics”

                We clearly see things differently.
                I generally try to weed out those sorts of elementes whereas you want them to lead the way.

    • Murray Olsen 2.2

      I’m a pakeha. I’ll talk to anyone who’ll listen about the Treaty, and even some who won’t. I’ll also listen to them. If the four people on the panel weren’t prepared to do the same, I have to wonder about their calibre.

    • “Whenever issues are raised around here of this world and its issues the accusation of being racist comes out pretty damn quick. Like a knee-jerk reaction. It is as if we are not permitted to question things in this arena, that it is taboo, that certain people are not qualified or of the correct race or ‘status’ to raise issues that are of concern to them.”

      Playing the race card in the context of NZ’s constitution is about as honest as calling “anti-semite” to counter criticism of the Zionist state of Israel.

      Maori did not cede sovereignty at Waitangi. The issue isn’t race, the issue is the dishonour of the Crown and parliament’s status as a de-facto government rather than a de-jure government.

      http://www.treatyeducators.org.nz/qa11

  3. ianmac 3

    Pretty angry about the extended licence for Gambling and the compensation to be charged if rules change.
    Rod Oram says compo must be paid if changes made in the future..
    Mai Chen said it would need 75% Parliamentary approval to validate compensation.
    [audio src="http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/ckpt/ckpt-20130513-1814-constitutional_lawyers_view_of_skycity_deal-048.mp3" /]
    Good discussion at Public Address.

  4. DH 4

    I was reading about the three US women who’d been kidnapped for 10yrs. That was nasty enough but the story about the oldest is heartbreaking. Raped at school & made pregnant. Physically and sexually abused by mother’s boyfriend. On the day she was due in court to fight for her child’s custody she’s kidnapped & kept as a sex slave for the next 11 years. Multiple miscarriages, regular beatings, and the anguish of a mother who knows her child is probably lost forever as the years pass painfully by.

    Makes you feel like crying. What a shitty, shitty, world this can be.

    • ghostrider888 4.1

      Epic,tetus
      Eidetics
      Lurings , cultural, historical, and psychological.

      1 Cor. 12:4
      For there are many different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works in all men.

      7, now to each one the manifestations of the Spirit is given for the common good;
      -the message of wisdom -metanoia
      -the message of knowledge-semantic
      -faith-perseverance
      -gifts of healing-“heal thyself”
      -miraculous powers-“gifts”
      -prophecy-Plenty of that on The Standard (toasters talking without speaking)
      -distinguishing between spirits-discernment
      -speaking in different kinds of tongues-philology, linguistics, semiotics
      -to Another, the interpretation of tongues.

      “we all need a love resurrection, just a little divine intervention” from The Floating Opera at the End of The Road.
      -John Barth
      (Abandon Romanticism, amor fati).

    • karol 4.2

      it is indeed a sad case, and just the tip of the iceberg, DH. I have been pondering on whether to post on it, but I don’t want to participate in the MSM, US-centred sensationalism – so many awful things happening to people around the world – eg human trafficking of women for sexual slavery.

      The accused in the US case, also abused the women and children in his family, and, apparently he also was abused.

      There was a certain amount of jubilation when the women, and child, were first freed, but their suffering is not over.

      And, as the guy got away with it, right under the noses of people looking for the women after they ‘disappeared”, it raises the question of “how many more”?

      Yes, a shitty, shitty world.

      • DH 4.2.1

        Yeah I had second thoughts too but the MSM hadn’t really made much of her, was usually referred to as the “third victim”. She’s not fashionable enough.

        It is a depresssing problem. Many, if not most, of the 1-2 million maids working in Saudi Arabia are just slaves and no-one seems to give a damn about them. There’s some 45 on death row and it’s a safe bet none have done anything more than defend themselves or just become expendable.

        NZ has it’s share, mostly prostitution related, the enforcement is inadequate and penalties far too low. There’s a lack of outrage, don’t know why.

        • karol 4.2.1.1

          The MSM focused mostly on the liberation story. It has tremendous appeal, and drew me in. The MSM tends to focus on individuals over context and the broader issues: the heroic women, the villainous abducter, etc.

          However, normally, the MSM wouldn’t refer to the victims by name – they’d get name suppression. Apparently with this case, the names of the women had already been public knowledge from when they were abducted.

          I think it is appropriate that the MSM doesn’t put the “third” woman under intense scrutiny, when she is dealing with such complex issues.

          The issues that need to be addressed by the wider public, IMO, is how often such things happen, why it was so easy for it to go unnoticed, how it links in with domestic violence, etc.

    • millsy 4.3

      At least they broke free. There are probably thousands in the USA still held against their will by kidnappers. Millions dissepear from the streets of the USA every day.

  5. lprent 5

    There will be a shift of the primary server over the next couple of weeks. Grrr.

    The outage this morning was due to some kind of hardware fault at the server. It was the second one in as many months at the same system.

    I realise that we are cheapskates when it comes to paying for these servers because having a low operational cost allows us to not be beholden to anyone. That in turn means that we have a lot of freedom to express opinion regardless who gets offended.

    However I’m pretty sure that we can get better system stability without increasing costs at all.

    • karol 5.1

      Thanks for sorting this, Lynn.

      • lprent 5.1.1

        I’m just peeved that I got woken up so damn early with a bleeping phone. I feel like an early awakened hibernating grizzly today… But mostly it was the lack of response that I found irritating. Freaking annoying when they have operators e-mails and a webpage that is meant to display the outages and ETAs.

    • ghostrider888 5.2

      will it affect delivery of service? (I understand that you are busy, How’s it coming along with those notes Lynn?)

    • DH 5.3

      Are you hosting locally or overseas lprent? If you need hardware I can probably find something suitable that won’t cost you anything.

      • lprent 5.3.1

        Hosted overseas and hopefully hidden behind a CDN.

        That way we don’t get hammered with excessive overseas bandwidth costs (ie the Southern Cross effective monopoly tax) from overseas bots and it makes it more interesting for the legal idiots if anyone wants to pursue a nuisance suit targeting the providers first (first Colin Craig et al would have to find the server).

        The cost isn’t that much of an issue (because of the adverts on the site) except that I want to keep us from getting too dependent on requiring money. At the current cost of operations then we could probably subsist for a few years with just what we have in the bank right now. The ideal level of cost would be something that I could pay it myself without really noticing. That means that we could also fund out of voluntary donations which is mostly happened prior to putting ads on in 2010. We finally got back there at xmas.

        The current issue is simply that the provider I picked, whilst usually pretty good as a platform, appears to have this bad habit of not noticing when their system jams. Of course these are for me unscheduled outages (unlike the ones I accidently create for myself) which invariably happen when I’m short of time to handle them.

        But I’ve been testing a different provider since March. So it is time to move.

  6. Poission 6

    The imaginary friend of Joyce et al is fixed.The conspiracy theorists are right

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/everything-is-rigged-the-biggest-financial-scandal-yet-20130425

    • ghostrider888 6.1

      echoed from a week or so ago Poission

    • muzza 6.2

      Of course it’s all rigged, what do people imagine the *digital/big bang* environments were designed for!

      Wait until further revelations/exposé conspiracy theorists those who pay attention, turn out to be correct about!

      Sheesh, it’s not even difficult, it’s right in fron of the faces of those looking, and commentating!

  7. xtasy 7

    Sick and disabled on benefits, get ready for the long prepared, “FIT FOR WORK AGENDA”, prepared by the National led government, and going to be rolled out by Paula Bennett in the form of a new social welfare regime from 15 July 2013! Yes, the date is approaching fast, and in the background all is being prepared to get many of you, who are supposedly “locked into benefit dependency”, “assisted” get work out there, whether it is serving burgers and chips, pushing trolleys at supermarkets, cleaning, doing some office, factory or forecourt work.

    The Social Security (Benefit Categories and Work Focus) Amendment Act is in core parts intended to offer the needed “framework” for the UK style system in welfare and work capacity assessments done by selected medical professionals, that is intended to be introduced here in New Zealand as well. Parliament with the one seat NatACT majority government has hammered through the bill to become law.

    To get an idea what preparatory work has been done by key leaders, appointed under this government in key decisionmaking and implementing roles in various state agencies, have a look at the following info. Here is an abundance of links or sources with info that can enlighten readers:

    http://www.nzohna.org.nz/uploaded/Dr%20David%20Beaumont%20New%20Horizons%2013%209%202012.pdf
    (Presentation by Dr David Beaumont: ‘Welfare Reform in New Zealand – Relevance to the Workplace‘‚ as part of a forum called ‘New Horizons: Rebuilding Health and Safety on Solid Ground’; Christchurch 13 September 2012)

    http://www.fitforwork.co.nz/dr-david-beaumonts-message-to-doctors-conference-medical-certification-can-be-fraught-with-problems-for-gps
    (Presenting at the General Practice Conference and Medical Exhibition of 11-12 June 2011, Fit For Work Medical Director Dr David Beaumont emphasised the vital role of New Zealand GPs in “helping” their patients return to work)

    http://www.fitforwork.co.nz/david-beaumont-and-colleagues-presenting-on-health-benefits-of-work
    (“News” fr. “Fit For Work”, by Dr D. Beaumont, featuring Kevin Morris, Director, ACC, at a forum organised by AFOEM and the Royal Australasian College of Physicians; 12.05.2012)

    http://nz.linkedin.com/pub/david-beaumont/2a/780/943
    (Linked In page of Dr Beaumont, formerly also working for ‘Atos Origin Healthcare’ in the UK. He’s been promoting the UK style medical and work capacity tests for many years; he’s also been advising MSD here in NZ)

    http://www.wellnz.co.nz/about_us/press_release_details.asp?pressID=36&bhcp=1
    (On the Australasian Faculty of Occupational and Environmental Medicine’s release of a new position paper, entitled “Realising the health benefits of work.”, 25.05.2010; see the known persons involved!!!)

    http://www.healthworkforce.govt.nz/about-us/board-members
    (Dr Des Gorman, well known from his advisory role to ACC for many years, and for some highly controversial recommendations. He’s now also “boss” of ‘Health Work Force NZ’, set up to develop recruitment and training strategies for health sector employees in the NZ health sector)

    http://www.fmhs.auckland.ac.nz/faculty/staffct/staff_details.aspx?staffID=64676F72303130
    (Dr Des Gorman, Associate Dean at the Medical School of Auckland Uni)

    http://wellsaid.co.nz/inside-acc/prof-des-gorman-delighted-to-join-acc-board/
    (now Dr Gorman is also sitting on the ACC Board, appointed by guess whom? Paula Rebstock! I am wondering, whether he is also still on the ‘National Health Board’)



    (2 older TV documentaries on ACC cases involving Dr Gorman, referring to “illness belief” and mental health as reasons for otherwise “physical” suffering)

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/6930331/Rebstock-appointment-to-welfare-reform-board-concerns (stuff.co.nz on the appointment of P. Rebstock as Welfare Board chairperson)

    http://www.beehive.govt.nz/speech/speech-medical-professionals
    Paula Bennett’s speech to medical professionals, informing on the new welfare reforms, 26.09.12)

    Professor Mansel Aylward – 2 links with 2 views on his work and medical “research”:
    https://hcml.co.uk/?p=200
    http://downwithallthat.wordpress.com/category/dubious-academics-universities/cardiff-university/

    http://www.gpcme.co.nz/pdf/GP%20CME/Friday/C1%201515%20Bratt-Hawker.pdf
    (and let us not forget our “dear” MSD and WINZ Principal Health Advisor, Dr David Bratt, who likes to compare benefit dependence with drug dependence)

    So this shows you who is in place to execute the new regime that will affected many sick and disabled dependent on welfare. Being “sick” or “disabled” will NOT mean anymore, that you are not able to work. Already for the last couple of years many have been thrown off invalid’s and sickness benefits, for bizarre reasons. The pressure will be on, for you guys to go out and compete with the fit and healthy for the few jobs there are.

    Maybe “look forward” to a nice job at the to be extended Sky City Casino then?

    • karol 7.1

      Thanks, xtasy, for so many useful links.

      It does need to be watched, critiqued, opposed and publicised.

    • NickS 7.2

      👿

      I see all sorts of potential “fun” if they try this crap on me, particularly if it triggers suicidal ideation episodes.

    • BLiP 7.3

      Nice job, thank you.

  8. gobsmacked 8

    If there’s anybody left who still believes David Shearer will stand up to Key/Joyce on the Sky City 35 year rort, please listen to the Labour leader being painfully interviewed by Sean Plunket on Radio Live this morning:

    http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Audio.aspx

    You can just click on the interview time (approx 10.10 to 10.20 a.m.) and listen to the emptiness.

    • David H 8.1

      Yep and I wonder whats going to happen when Key gets a 3rd term, the ‘sell it all we got a mandate. Yay come one, and all, you rich people NZ is for sale! I also wonder what the next polls will bring, In fact I dread to think what the next polls will bring!

  9. Some statistics are brutal

    11 people every week commit suicide in this country

    NZ has the highest rate of youth suicide in the OECD

    New Zealand’s suicide toll is 50 per cent higher than the road toll.

    More New Zealanders under the age of 25 die from suicide than from all medical causes combined.

    Suicides of 10-14-year-olds increased 60 per cent between 2007 and 2010.

    New Zealand’s youngest known suicide victim was a 6-year-old.

    Suicide rates of Maori and Pacific youth are 70 per cent higher than those of other young New Zealanders.

    The most common age for Maori and Pacific people to take their lives is 15-19.

    Source: CASPER (an organisation for those bereaved by suicide)

    A 6 year old committing suicide – get your head around that if you can.

    A hui in the deep south is being held to raise awareness of suicide prevention and we need to raise awareness, we need to talk about it and come up with strategies to help these (often) young people.

    Our society is focused on the individual, on profit and exploitation, on capitalism and neo-liberalism and all of those factors contribute towards our appalling record in suicide.

    The Maori youth suicide rate was 35.3 per 100,000 Maori youth population which was more than 2.5 times higher than non-Maori youth. (13.4 per 100,000)

    It is too late to save them when they have gone – we need to save them NOW, we need to give people hope NOW and we need to talk about this disgusting blight on our society NOW. Do your bit and connect with those young people around you, your friends, your family, your whānau.

    Do it NOW.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/8667621/Maori-suicide-rates-in-prevention-spotlight

    http://mars2earth.blogspot.co.nz/2013/05/saving-people.html

    • muzza 9.1

      Shameful, isn’t it Marty!

      And its hardly *just snuck up* on anyone either!

    • Bill 9.2

      Could it just maybe be that depression and (unfortunately) the suicide that sometimes results is, in large part, a quite appropriate response to our social environment? Could it just maybe be that those we hold to be ‘well balanced and adjusted’ are in fact more psychologically askew than those we seek to balance and adjust back to a situation or perspective whereby they can cope or feel content with things?

      I suppose the answer depends on whether you believe that most mental illness is principly biological in origin or hold that it’s essentially environmental. And also on whether you believe our society is healthy or not.

      Just food for thought.

      • marty mars 9.2.1

        an interesting point Bill.

        I probably agree to a point in regards to adults but I think youth are different in that they are inheriting the society we have created and I think there is an obligation on our part to help them at least get through to adulthood. That help is based upon giving them hope, personal esteem, and self awareness. The slant in the statistics where certain ethnic groups commit more suicide than others also needs consideration. Why does that happen? I have my views of course and the solution is not that palatable to most in this society.

        • McFlock 9.2.1.1

          I have the sneaking suspicion that the slant in ethnicities is confounded by a more extreme distribution in deprivation. A lot of stuff will come out in the wash when census totals are distributed so we have fairly accurate rates again (StatsNZ don’t issue population projections based on deprivation, AFAIK).

          • Arfamo 9.2.1.1.1

            Yep. Hope you’re right about better analysis in the census. Deprivation must lead to increased numbers feeling loss of hope.

      • NickS 9.2.2

        …mental illness is principly biological in origin or hold that it’s essentially environmental.

        Generally it’s environment+genes, like most phenotypes 😛

        Depends on the condition though, schizophrenia is usually caused by specific collections of genes, while depression is pretty universal and triggered by environment, albeit with significant genetic components indicated by family studies in relation to severity.

        As to your question, personally society is generally quite judgemental of those who are different, creating higher risks for poor mental health outcomes as stress can be a trigger for a whole range of mental illnesses, as well as the isolation/poverty that usually accompanies creating barriers to early intervention/treatment. It makes having a functioning, low barrier to entry, public health system vs the societal costs of mental illness rather important, along with public education at all levels.

        • ghostrider888 9.2.2.1

          psycho-social model rules, imo.

          • NickS 9.2.2.1.1

            Nick is highly sceptical about any psychology model systems/theories that look like they come from before the 90’s due to the long-tail of cargo-cult and pseudoscience psychiatry shit like Freud et al and vile offspring. Which sadly still stick around and screw over the mentally ill. Although PS-model seems to be more evidence based that it’s peers of similar vintage from a brief look.

    • What is really sad is that our recording of deaths probably understates the number of suicides. For example car deaths that are probably suicides are recorded as accidents.

    • joe90 9.4

      My extended family has had to deal with suicide not once but twice so it’s something I find very difficult to even contemplate so briefly, IMO, youngsters taking their own lives is the result of despair coupled with the just-world notion and little or no appreciation of the finality of death.

    • NickS 9.5

      A 6 year old committing suicide – get your head around that if you can.

      Easy to do, if you’ve been in that position, and with children, it takes considerable pressure to cause that state of mind. Like constant bullying or familial abuse that is ignored by those in a position to do something about it…

      It is too late to save them when they have gone – we need to save them NOW, we need to give people hope NOW and we need to talk about this disgusting blight on our society NOW. Do your bit and connect with those young people around you, your friends, your family, your whānau.

      MoH’s been really pushing this via advertising, but frankly it’s not penetrating deep enough. Already found that out the hard way with former friends of mine, one who pretty much cut me off completely without seemingly realising the impact it would have on me and so is under sentence of “fist to the groin” if they pull any further shit.

      (full details on last years fun)

      And the worst parts are the constant hiding of suicides by the media, bar that of celebs and criminals of course and negative cultural attitudes to depression and suicide. I don’t know if schools have improved their actions towards childhood and teenage depression and it’s causes, but I’m not aware of much being done during my time in school. The odd assembly spot was about the sum total of it from memory…

      • ghostrider888 9.5.1

        “advertisng” is just lip-service; see the Road Toll, alcohol abuse, family violence, sexual abuse etc; it is all structural, that is why I loathe NGO’s and the “helpers” professions; they can all kiss my my firey ass.

        • NickS 9.5.1.1

          Nyet, adverts can be used to ethically educate others as long as they’re backed up with sufficient social services and resources etc.

    • NickS 10.1

      That’s the Tories in a nutshell, trying the same, failed polices, over and over again, no matter what history or empirical research show.

    • Draco T Bastard 10.2

      National and Act work on ideology. Any research that proves them wrong will be systematically ignored.

  10. The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 11

    Just saw Denis O’Rourke in action in the house. Keep an eye on him: he is a dynamic up-and-comer.

    • vto 11.1

      Yep, he is strongly telling the government and business lackeys in Christchurch to take their proposed gigantic convention centre and covered stadium white elephants and shove them up the drainpipes.

      It grates when business people rant that old lady ratepayers should pay for their business premises. Richie McCaw should be ashamed.

  11. halfcrown 12

    Just watched Guy Standing’s Lecture in 2011 on The Precariate. The new dangerous class.
    If this has not already been mentioned on the standard I highly recommend looking at it. Perhaps some of the right wing arrogant prats who visit this site may also like to have a look, if their pea sized brains can stand the strain they may learn something, as this could affect them.
    Highly recommended

    • Tim 12.1

      The guy’s brilliant!
      Sums up perfectly the reason I’ll not vote Labour again (both Party and/or candidate) until they start showing signs of addressing the plight of the precariate, the “under-class” and the denizen. There are those amongst them that are doing their best I know but they’re not yet in the ascendancy.
      Similarly, there are many in academia who’re well aware of the phenomenon, but who fail to challenge it at every opportunity – hats off to those that do!

      • Colonial Viper 12.1.1

        Study shows UK Labour voters think poverty is a personal fault

        seems like Labour Party leadership understand their supporters better than we think.

        What the foundation seems to pinpoint is a major cultural shift. Almost half of Labour supporters – 47% – surveyed in 2011 said if benefits were not as generous, people would learn to stand on their own feet, up from 17% in 1987. Labour supporters also increasingly think that welfare recipients are undeserving – from 21% in 1987 to 31% in 2011. While the debates around welfare have shifted to the right, Labour supporters moved in greater numbers than those in other parties – with left-wing voters stressing personal agency and individual responsibility.

        http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/may/14/labour-voters-poor-study-solidarity

        • karol 12.1.1.1

          Depressing study. But I’d also like to know how today’s “Labour voters” compare with the past in terms of proportion of the population and demographic background. There appears to be increasing numbers of people disconnecting from the political process. So maybe the study is at least partly showing that a lot of people more sympathetic to those on low incomes, have given up on the Labour Party.

          • Colonial Viper 12.1.1.1.1

            Just as the Labour Party has given up on them.

            • Olwyn 12.1.1.1.1.1

              It could also be that people have given up imagining a better world; that they themselves feel squeezed and feel that if those beneath them get any relief it will only be at their expense. I note that they are concerned about child poverty, which is the only form of poverty, it seems, that is allowed oxygen.I find the bracketing off of child poverty rather sinister, since children’s poverty mostly follows from the impoverishment of their parents.

              • Colonial Viper

                No one is educating people in left wing history and alternative political economics any more.

                The only ideas which get aired are neoliberal ones of one description or another. Both UK Labour and NZ Labour offer few (if any) clear alternatives to orthodox economics ways of looking at the nation and too often buy into market mechanisms as the solution to societal problems.

                And what about those roof painting benefit bludgers.

                • Arfamo

                  Yeah. I think you’re right. There’s no analysis of economic & political issues on mainstream tv and programmes like Q&A are useless for anyone trying to understand these things. Some good documentaries on YouTube, but who thinks to watch them?

                  Roof painters. Coke & popcorn. Jesus.

                  • ghostrider888

                    love your comments every minute 😀

                    • just saying

                      And what makes up the bulk of primetime tv (outside of coooking competitions and middle-class home renovation shows)?

                      .
                      Renters
                      The Force
                      RPA
                      Strangeways
                      24 hours in A and E
                      Police 10 7
                      RBT….

                      All shows that demonise the poorest and most disadvanatged. If reality shows picked on the badly behaving from the middle classes and up they’d be sued.
                      No analysis of why people feel the need to get trolleyed, just entertainment by derision and hatred.

                  • NickS

                    Yeah. I think you’re right. There’s no analysis of economic & political issues on mainstream tv and programmes like Q&A are useless for anyone trying to understand these things.

                    THIS.

                    Heck, these days you’re mostly only going to see doco’s about nature on the main channels, or “real life” stuff, rather than any serious social, economic or political doco’s. And if by chance we do see one, 9/10 it’ll be about some place else, rather than the pressing local issues.

                    And it’s all because the channels know simple, sensationalist pap sells…

                  • Olwyn

                    To start somewhere, we could outline what a decent society, at the most basic level, would look like, and consider the steps we would need to take to get closer to it than where we are now. Why on earth are security of dwelling and a modest living income not included as human rights, for instance? I know I am dreaming, but I would very much like to see Labour frame things like this; ” We are going to do whatever it takes to achieve X”, X being stable, genuinely affordable housing for each and every citizen, or similar, rather than “We are going to do S, T and U, and X will result.” Recent history tells us that S, T, and U readily result in something other than X once the rapacious smell opportunity – for example the housing plan in the US that resulted in the sub-prime mortgage problem.

                    • ghostrider888

                      it is all over, bar the shouting Olwyn; night.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I would very much like to see Labour frame things like this; ” We are going to do whatever it takes to achieve X”

                      You win votes by playing to peoples prejudices or self interest.

                      Our current lot of political parties know no other way.

                      I like Bill’s alternative – housing collectives which are suited to exist within a capitalist market model but internally are structured to work very differently.

                    • Olwyn

                      You can also appeal to people’s better selves; that is what unleashes the creativity to make things happen. Mean prejudices have already gone too far in turning us into the kind of people we don’t like being.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Indeed. A persuasive, charismatic appeal to our more principled better selves could do it. Either Shearer or Robertson would be quite capable.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      To start somewhere, we could outline what a decent society, at the most basic level, would look like, and consider the steps we would need to take to get closer to it than where we are now.

                      Agreed.

                      Why on earth are security of dwelling and a modest living income not included as human rights, for instance?

                      Because we haven’t got a purpose to the economy and so it defaults to the purpose of profit and when what is needed goes against profit then it is cast as being bad by both the politicians and the economists (especially the ones on the political right).

                    • Olwyn

                      Sigh. One can but dream CV.

                      @ Draco: surely we must reach the stage soon where even those who appear to be prospering get frightened by our hollowed out, rootless fake economy, and all that can result from this.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      A fair number of relatively wealthy people (and some extremely wealthy people) see the cliff that we are accelerating towards.

                      There doesn’t seem to be any real leadership around though, so they’re just going to hold on for the ride.

                • ghostrider888

                  enough to turn ya’ green

              • ghostrider888

                Ardern in Q.T; “material deprivation from 15-21%” (I can read this sh*t after a dozen, why do they choose not to?)

    • Alanz 12.2

      thanks, halfcrown. keep those links coming. ideas definitely more than two cents worth .

  12. ianmac 13

    Defy the Will of the People! (Paraphased from Question Time Today.)
    Judith Collins said today in answer to a Question, that the MMP Reforms would not be presented to the House this year.
    Q:Why not?
    A: Because there was not full Consensus.
    Q: Who were the Parties not in Consensus?
    A: There was not full consensus.
    Q: Will the tag on seat (as in Act) still be there at the next election?
    A: Yes.
    It would seem that the Legislation would have to be in the House by end of May in order to pass in time.(Geddes I think.)

  13. Tigger 14

    Stuff apparently has asked readers to make a Budget. Today’s answer was, well, let’s just say rather ‘libertarian’.

    http://i.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/assignments/the-budget-your-10-point-plan-for-nz/8669819/My-NZ-Budget-A-radical-overhaul

    My favourite part? “Crime would be heavily targeted in all forms. All criminals would spend their days breaking rocks into smaller rocks for the standard eight-hour work day.”

    The author is one Kurt Burrows. If he isn’t a prison guard I suspect he harbours fantasies of being so.

    • Murray Olsen 14.1

      Possibly Chester Burrows trying to hide his identity?

    • QoT 14.2

      I refuse to click on any link to Stuff Nation, but must express my amusement at someone you describe as “libertarian” advocating for entire bureaucracies to be implemented just so convicted criminals can do completely unproductive work.

      • Colonial Viper 14.2.1

        I had this weird idea that the country needed more skilled tradies. Train them up, get them out, give them a rebuilding job, keep them away from crime.

  14. Nordy 15

    Thanks ianmac…. interesting that consensus is a necessary prerequisite…..I for one don’t agree with this as it effectively allows the ‘tail to wag the dog’.

    What we actualy want and need is leadership, but of course we won’t get this from a NACT govt now or ever…..

    • Populuxe1 15.1

      Leadership smeadership. Get away from this archaic vertical organised labour nonsense. The future is horizontal consensus. As Pierre-Joseph Proudhon pointed out, there’s very little point in putting the workers, or anyone, in charge because you’re just creating a new ruling class who have no interest in dismantling the aparatus of government. Power corrupts.

  15. vto 16

    Well now Helen Clarks government and John Keys government have matched each others bullshit and arrogance. Key will now sink to the depths that Clark did in peoples eyes.

    New Zealanders voted in a referendum about MMP in 2011. Ignored.

    New Zealanders voted in a referendum about the numbers of MPs in 1999. Ignored.

    This is why politicians are held in such low regard.

    The electoral system is not for the government to determine. It is for the people to determine.

    Bullshit the lot. Clark and Key occupy the same shitbox and will each carry their smell together. Stinking pricks.

    Clark and Key
    Up a tree
    Stinking up the neighbourhood
    Poo-fucken-wee

    • Ugly Truth 16.1

      Proudly brought to you by the “Parliament is sovereign so it can do what it bloody well likes” crowd.

    • Lanthanide 16.2

      “New Zealanders voted in a referendum about MMP in 2011. Ignored.”

      It wasn’t ignored at all. It asked if we should change, or stick with MMP. We voted to stick with MMP. We stuck with MMP.

      The review and public submissions afterwards were not part of a referendum.

      Also dropping to 99 MPs was asinine and good that it didn’t happen.

  16. ghostrider888 17

    Q.T;
    English- “while in the top 5 (countries) least likely to fail, our debts are relatively high”.
    Robertson on the HLFS (supported by Key) “40,000 jobs behind 2012 Budget target”
    Joyce- “not growing them (jobs) as fast as we wish”.
    Robertson- “above the worst-case scenario of the last Budget”.
    Parker- “current account deficit amongst the worst in the world”.
    -NZ non-trade-able sector down 6.4%.

    English- (on poverty relief)- “a highly targeted, practical approach” = minimalist!

    WHO THE FUCK DO THESE FUCKWITS THINK THEY ARE KIDDING? ffs

  17. geoff 18

    Things have become so grim that the UN suggests westerners start eating insects:
    http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/eating-insects-could-help-fight-obesity-un-says-5436069

    • ghostrider888 18.1

      Yep. (grind ya’ teeth and wail a little; this is just the entree).

    • karol 18.2

      I read that.earlier today. I could be up for it – would give it a go. I’m not much of a meat eater, but I don’t see insects as being any worse fodder than animals.

    • Colonial Viper 18.3

      If you want to fight obesity eliminate refined sugar and corn syrup from diets. Scrap artificial sweeteners. And give people some regular sleep.

      • ghostrider888 18.3.1

        I tells ya Colonel, we are certainly watching the end metamorphosis pupae. Which reminds me, did ya see The Hellstrom Chronicle when we were young? Re-released last year.

    • The Al1en 18.4

      I saw that on Breakfast tv this morning and the light hearted way in which is was received by the presenters. So I sent them this feedback via facebook.
      Surprised they didn’t use it.

      “With respect, hungry people being told to eat insects and you treat it like a reality tv show challenge.
      These people are human beings and thus, by right, should be fed the same healthy food we as consumers throw 50% of away each week.
      If the will were there, a way could be found of doing it.
      Go on, eat an insect as a stunt, but at the end of the day, my money is on the bugs.
      AL1”

  18. Tim 19

    Breaking News:
    Sartorial elegance of the month has been displayed in the NZ Parliament’s Question Time today.

    The ‘honourable’ Tony Ryall is seen, resplendent in pin-striped suit, lime green gingham shirt (possibly run up at short notice on “the wife’s Elna” after their table cloth was ruined by splashes of red wine), and a pastel blue polka dot tie.
    Ryall wasn’t prepared to confirm whether or not his boxers were of checked pattern fabric or polka dotted.

    • Tim 19.1

      Wrong day – it’s Ryall though – so same shit different stink in the world of the superficial

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