Open mike 14/10/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 14th, 2015 - 140 comments
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140 comments on “Open mike 14/10/2015 ”

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  1. Paul 1
    14 October 2015 at 6:13 am

    The boycott of TV3 after the political axing of John Campbell is working.
    Stuff, however, fail to mention this once in their reporting.
    The MSM lies.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/72981663/3-news-sees-lowest-ratings-in-four-years

    • David H 1.1
      14 October 2015 at 10:48 am

      But it’s all over the Comments.

    • alwyn 1.2
      14 October 2015 at 12:22 pm

      John Campbell would hardly be relevant to this story surely?
      It is about the SUNDAY news program being the lowest for years.
      I may be wrong as I never watched him, or either news program actually, but wasn’t he limited to weekdays?
      It wouldn’t matter anyway as it is the lead-in program that affects the one after it, not the other way round. An unpopular news program would have affected Campbell but a dud Campbell wouldn’t have affected the news audience.

  2. vto 2
    14 October 2015 at 6:16 am

    John Key on the 1981 tour: “sorry, no can’t recall”

    John Key on Whaleoil: “sorry, no can’t recall”

    John Key’s most famous line to come out of his political career: “sorry I can’t recall”

    Well, as expected, this has caught on out in the real world now and everybody is running this line when in strife. It is as if the whole of NZ now considers lying about what you recall somehow acceptable. It is becoming more and more common as John Key’s poor and lowly character traits are picked up by others for less than quality purposes.

    Current example:
    Chris Cairns cheating trial in UK at the moment. Lou Vincent in the dock yesterday…. check it out ….. “The phrase “I can’t recall” was used so often in response to questions, it was possible Vincent raised a century of them.” http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/cricket/72991117/chris-cairns-trial-daryl-tuffey-was-furious-over-non-payment-court-told

    How apt – in a trial about cheating and lying, the participants use John Key’s most used line “I can’t recall”

    It would be funny if it weren’t so sad

    • Srylands 2.1
      14 October 2015 at 7:09 am

      Maybe that is because they can’t recall. John Key was 20 years old in 1981. I was born in the same year as John Key. All I remember about 1981 is a lot of study, girls and beer. So when JK says he can’t recall events from 1981 you are deluded to go looking for some whacko explanation. He was focussed on Bronagh and his third year accountancy exams. In what time he had left he was working as a stable hand.

      • Paul 2.1.1
        14 October 2015 at 7:15 am

        You were a University student in the early 80s and can’t remember the Springbok tour.
        Yeah, right.

      • vto 2.1.2
        14 October 2015 at 7:16 am

        ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

        sad

      • mickysavage 2.1.3
        14 October 2015 at 7:26 am

        I was also born in the same year as Key. I can remember every protest, the escalation of police violence, the introduction of the red squad, the thwack thwack of batons. The only way you could not recall anything about the tour is if you lived on the moon at the time.

        • Grant 2.1.3.1
          14 October 2015 at 8:02 am

          Exactly. SpRaYglands is not credible on this or any other issue. The entire nation was thinking of nothing else for weeks. Possible exceptions, hermits who’d gone bush for a few months and the mentally incompetent. Even the crew wintering over in Antarctica were probably divided on the issue.

          • savenz 2.1.3.1.1
            14 October 2015 at 8:26 am

            We all know JK would have supported the racism in 1981 – that is why he can’t recall anything.

            • North 2.1.3.1.1.1
              14 October 2015 at 6:11 pm

              Every pose Key takes is a Crosby Textor thing. No heart, no philosophy. Just a Crosby Textor thing. Oh except perhaps for that extraordinarily weird very possibly intoxicated “Gerrr Sarrrm Garrrds ” dance. Crosby Textor says deny having a position……”Right you are !”

          • Naki man 2.1.3.1.2
            14 October 2015 at 11:19 am

            Fuckin bullshit Grant, The only people getting all bent out of shape about the tour were the protesters. All I remember was seeing some nutter dropping flour bombs out of a plane and hearing some wankers had put razor blades on a rugby field.

            • marty mars 2.1.3.1.2.1
              14 October 2015 at 11:34 am

              so you admit you were aware of it – pity key still lies through his teeth about it – shows how weak he is.

              • Naki man …
                14 October 2015 at 12:25 pm

                I was only interested in piss, girls and surfing at the time.
                If I hadn’t seen the news I wouldn’t have known about it.
                Teenagers just want to have a good time and don’t know or care about politics.

                • Grant …
                  14 October 2015 at 12:46 pm

                  And yet the protest marches and opposing rugby crowds were full of teenagers. Funny that.

                  • Naki man …
                    14 October 2015 at 1:59 pm

                    “And yet the protest marches and opposing rugby crowds were full of teenagers. Funny that.”

                    Not every teenager has a parent who is protester and some teenagers have interests other than rugby. Actually most of them.

                    • Grant …
                      14 October 2015 at 2:15 pm

                      You can say what you like but the vast majority of teenagers in 1981 would have been well aware of the tour, would have heard adults arguing and expressing opinions and would probably have formed an opinion or been prepared to parrot someone else’s. Key was scarcely even a teenager. He turned twenty that year (I turned 23). He was at Uni and the Uni’s were hot-beds of discussion and debate about the tour and focal points for organising marches and rallies. No one who lived through that time and was Key’s age, lived in a university city and had a functioning intelligence believe’s him when he claims to not remember what his opinion was at the time. It stretches incredulity way beyond breaking point.

                • McFlock …
                  14 October 2015 at 12:52 pm

                  So you did know about it. And people told you the stories about the razorblades, so obviously you discussed it. And you remember thinking about protestors as “nutters” and “wankers”.

                  No clues there about whether you thought the tour was ok to go ahead in NZ or not?

                  • Grant …
                    14 October 2015 at 1:04 pm

                    Heh..

                  • Naki man …
                    14 October 2015 at 2:15 pm

                    McFlock
                    No I said I saw it on the news and I said people who put razor blades on rugby fields are wankers and obviously anyone who endangers peoples lives dropping bags of flour on them from a plane is a nutter. I have no problem with peaceful protest but there was a few violent shitheads amongst them.
                    I like most people had no interest in rugby and don’t agree with mixing sport and politics.

                    • McFlock …
                      14 October 2015 at 2:26 pm

                      I […] don’t agree with mixing sport and politics.

                      Oh look, another clue…

                    • Grindlebottom …
                      14 October 2015 at 3:15 pm

                      I like most people had no interest in rugby and don’t agree with mixing sport and politics.

                      So, actually what you are saying is you knew about the tour and you had an opinion. The issue was should the government have allowed the 1981 SA team to tour.

                      Those opposed argued “No, apartheid has no place in sport, that is mixing sport and politics”.

                      Those not opposed to the tour proceeding argued “You shouldn’t mix sport and politics”. And refused to acknowledge that a racially selected team was already mixing politics with sport. Racial segregation is political.

                      And John Key also bloody well knew about it and had a position on it I bet. I’ll bet he believed you shouldn’t mix sport and politics, and even if he didn’t care, he wasn’t opposed. That’s a position. He’d know if he’d been opposed.

                • whateva next? …
                  14 October 2015 at 4:20 pm

                  and am I surprised you are a National supporter?

            • Grant 2.1.3.1.2.2
              14 October 2015 at 12:10 pm

              Naki man: “All I remember …..”
              As I mentioned, hermits and the mentally incompetent may have been uninterested or unaware.

          • McFlock 2.1.3.1.3
            14 October 2015 at 12:38 pm

            I don’t remember my opinion of the tour.

            But then I wasn’t even in school yet, so the news was before my bedtime and I think we only had one TV channel in our location.

        • tc 2.1.3.2
          14 October 2015 at 5:08 pm

          No mickey he’s on planet key which he’s shown again and again he prefers to the real world and the truth.

          Given GST hike, Pike River, Fletcher at GCSB, ponytails, SCF, no more asset sales, Dirty politics etc etc (Blip’s list) it just consolidates his dishonest nature further in voters minds.

          He could’ve been honest and I don’t believe it would’ve done him any harm at the polls but it just doesn’t seem to be in his nature.

      • vto 2.1.4
        14 October 2015 at 7:48 am

        Imagine if John Key ever ended up on trial…

        Where were you on the night of blah blah?
        “…sorry can’t recall”

        What age were you then?
        “… sorry can’t recall”

        What was your opinion on Rob Muldoon’s wage and price freeze?
        “… sorry can’t recall”

        How much did the cricket fixers pay you?
        “… sorry can’t recall”

        How much did Merrill Lynch pay you under clause 32.2 of the subordinate loan agreement dated 22.2.96, amended 14 oct?
        “… 4,552,221.34 less the deductions for x,y,z of $1,211.06 but that was only after Mr Dunderhead and the 3 foreign officials of YCorp collated their previous proposals under the DDD Scheme, which was interesting because blah blah on and on”

        John Key is famous for being New Zealand’s biggest bald-faced liar

      • nadis 2.1.5
        14 October 2015 at 8:33 am

        Its not credible to have no memory of the tour, I was 17 at the time and have very clear memories. From a provincial, rugby mad environment I was pro-tour until after the fact, though at the time I didn’t view it from a political or human rights perspective. But from the time I went on to University just a year or two later, I would and have had a very different view. I did go to the Bay of Plenty game in Rotorua, and threw half a pie at the protestors who were pulling down a fence. At the time it all seemed like a bit of a laugh.

        One thing we forget about a bit now is how at the time it was framed for many New Zealanders – and this was in a time when the only source of information for a family like mine – was a local paper, the herald and TVNZ news. Nothing else. My parents were inclined to be against the tour but because all the framing we saw was as a law and order issue, communist agitators trying to destroy NZ institutions etc, a huge number of people who might have been against the tour, were not prepared to do so.

        • GregJ 2.1.5.1
          14 October 2015 at 9:44 am

          100% with you nadis.

          I was 14, in a similar small-town Waikato environment. Rugby was king (and I played rugby as well as Cricket) and the framing of the discussion was very much about law and order rather than about the moral issues around apartheid.

          My views were altered when I had a History teacher who was one of the protesters on the field at Hamilton. He came to school the following Monday with a cut on his head from where he had been hit by a beer can. It was a brave stand in a conservative town – more so because he was local, an old-boy of the school who had been a member of the 1st XV and captain of the 1st XI. He changed the views of many of us I suspect.

          Key would could have quite simply say he supported the tour but in hindsight and in the balance of history he was wrong as many other New Zealanders have subsequently realised they were to. (Assuming he did support the tour).

          To claim he doesn’t remember is just bullshit.

      • grumpystilskin 2.1.6
        14 October 2015 at 9:49 am

        I was 11 in ’81 and remember even in the school playground kids were divided into pro & anti tour, influenced by parents obviously.
        To say an adult of 20yo at uni can’t remember what side they were on during that time is so improbable, it’s laughable.

      • mary_a 2.1.7
        14 October 2015 at 11:18 am

        @ Srylands (2.1)

        Pathetic!

      • lprent 2.1.8
        14 October 2015 at 12:37 pm

        I think I was 21 years old at the time. I remember it, both in the initial arguments about the tour in 1980 and when i happened in 1981.

        You’d have had to have been living in a glass bottle not to have an opinion by the time the tour started. You have a big test tube?

        • alwyn 2.1.8.1
          14 October 2015 at 9:16 pm

          “I think I was 21 years old at the time”

          Really? You only “think” you were 21?
          If someone can’t remember how old they were in any particular year I would have serious doubts about anything else they might claim to remember. Now are you sure that you remember the demonstrations?

          On the other hand there is the famous quote from my generation –
          “If you can remember the 1960s, you weren’t really there.”
          The problem with that quote is that there is an enormous dispute about who said it. After all those of us who were there can’t remember clearly.

          Perhaps you had a really good time when you were at University and can be forgiven for not remembering how old you were..

    • Grant 2.2
      14 October 2015 at 8:13 am

      Yeahbut, at least Vincent has a viable excuse for poor memory, given that he was, by his own admission, suffering depression and doing a fair bit of substance abuse at the time.

      Key? No excuse.

    • Lanthanide 2.3
      14 October 2015 at 10:45 am

      John Key was in the Accounting school at the University of Canterbury during the Springbok tour.

      I have family acquaintances who were at Canterbury at the same time. The accounting school were, as a group, supporters of the tour. They can’t say anything about Key specifically however, but it’s pretty easy to see how peer pressure works in a conservative and ‘elite’ area of study such as that.

  3. Paul 3
    14 October 2015 at 6:22 am

    Russia back in the news as source of MH17 downing; how opportune that the final report is released now….

    Once upon a time I believed western propaganda …and then they told me about weapons of mass destruction in 2003 and invaded Iraq.

    No more lies for war.

    • nadis 3.1
      14 October 2015 at 8:14 am

      You don’t give the Dutch Safety Board any chance of being honest?

      Your comment is actually a really good example of the bad behaviour you accuse others of – a knee jerk ideological reaction.

      If you had actually read any news reports you would see that the report is very neutral in not drawing conclusions where there is no clear evidence. It doesn’t for instance, blame rebels for the downing (although I personally believe it was russian backed rebels but they thought they were attacking a military plane not a civilian airliner).

      And why do you see a conspiracy around timing of the release?

      • maui 3.1.1
        14 October 2015 at 11:09 am

        I think the only reason the authority is not pointing blame is because it’s not their job, they’re only supposed to find out why it crashed.

        There are still a lot of murky details though, as Dmitry Orlov points out:

        The black box recordings, the air traffic control records, the satellite surveillance photos—where are they? They have been hidden away.

        Another point is why was Ukraine included in the team of countries to investigate the crash, alongside the Dutch, Australians, Malaysians. While Russia was not invited, seems a little odd doesn’t it?

        Great write up by respected journalist Robert Parry who also talks about neo-Nazis running Ukraine’s national security and western media repeating their side of the story:
        https://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/

        Also have a look at who had the greater motive for the attack.
        http://cluborlov.blogspot.co.nz/2014/07/fact-free-zone.html

        • nadis 3.1.1.1
          14 October 2015 at 12:32 pm

          Well the reason was included in the crash is because under international law it is their responsibility to be lead investigator – it happened on their territory. Ukraine actually gave up their role to the Dutch.

          • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.1.1
            15 October 2015 at 1:28 pm

            speaking of “international law” (international norms) many of the air accident reporting standards normally expected in an incident like this were not met by the Dutch.

            • nadis 3.1.1.1.1.1
              15 October 2015 at 1:39 pm

              Like? Can list them?

              Perhaps some of those norms weren’t followed because they didnt get access to much of the crash site for the better part of a year.

              ICAO rules (a UN organisation) govern the procedures to be followed. Havent seen any complaints to ICAO about the dishonesty of the Dutch.

              • Colonial Viper …
                15 October 2015 at 2:16 pm

                Perhaps some of those norms weren’t followed because they didnt get access to much of the crash site for the better part of a year.

                The crash site was open and accessible from the start, albeit there were security concerns

                ICAO rules (a UN organisation) govern the procedures to be followed. Havent seen any complaints to ICAO about the dishonesty of the Dutch.

                It is ICAO standards which were not followed, including the preparation, timing and release of the preliminary investigation report.

  4. North 4
    14 October 2015 at 6:32 am

    How about this for a piece of grand nonsense from the commenter “Once Duped” in response to Kelsey’s article in the Herald yesterday…….it’s that or it’s a wicked send-up –

    “Noone doubts your sincerity, but in a democracy we each get to decide what weight we should put on any public person’s opinion.

    Because you have been denied access to any of the negotiation documents, you have little specific information above what a normal informed member of society would have.

    Notwithstanding, you have adopted a position of unwavering opposition to the TPPA. However much that opposition may in fact be justified by scholarly analysis, the reality is that the majority of people have accepted it as a free expression of political views untarnished by academic objectivity.”

    “……..untarnished by academic objectivity” ?????

    Talk about contradictions in terms. I smell a Hosking, maybe a wag.

    • Paul 4.1
      14 October 2015 at 6:36 am

      The Herald buried the story of her victory in court.
      An inconvenient story in face of their daily pro-TPP brainwashing.

    • vto 4.2
      14 October 2015 at 6:44 am

      Ha ha, sometimes ignorance in people is funny.. and the more ignorant the funnier it is ….

      That person’s view right there is a classic because under their opinion about opinions, an opinion that the grass is not green has equal validity…

      “… untarnished by academic objectivity …”

      that is a clanger that reflects back on the writer (who is it?)

      Or actually maybe it reflects more on the general ignorant public who believe, like this person, that everybody’s opinions are equal. Certainly John Key believes he can just go and get another scientific ‘opinion’ whenever he likes to support or oppose whatever he likes……
      …. just like my comment above, John Key’s lowly traits are catching on and it is not a good thing.

      it would be funny if it weren’t so sad

      • Grindlebottom 4.2.1
        14 October 2015 at 3:38 pm

        That person’s view right there is a classic because under their opinion about opinions, an opinion that the grass is not green has equal validity…

        Only if “…the majority of people have accepted it… untarnished by academic objectivity”. 🙂

        (Actually when I read that commenter’s whole sentence again it’s so confused and ambiguous it’s meaningless.)

  5. Rosemary McDonald 5
    14 October 2015 at 7:49 am

    Finally, finally, this scummy reality for those battling serious health issues has floated to the top of the news bulletin….on Natrad anyway.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/286914/jobseeker-benefit-for-cancer-patients-'ludicrous‘

    “One woman, who does not want to be identified, applied for a benefit when she was diagnosed with breast cancer.
    She was put on Jobseeker Support, which replaced the sickness benefit after the 2013 welfare reforms.
    She said she had to pay for a medical certificate every month to prove she could not work – even though her surgeon insisted she would be off for much longer.
    “The letter from the hospital wasn’t sufficient. I then had to go back and get a doctor’s note to keep them happy, just to prove the fact that I was going in for surgery,” she said.
    “Then I also had to, on the day of my surgery, get someone from the hospital to fax through that I had been operated on”

    Anne -Where Did I leave My Heart- Tolley …

    “…admitted that having to provide monthly medical certificates in the early stages of cancer was difficult, but said the government had to draw a line somewhere.
    She said cancer patients could not expect special treatment, because then everyone would want it.
    “Where you draw the line is always the issue,” she said.
    “You start creating a whole lot of layers and there would be, I’m sure, other groups of people that would come forward and say, ‘we need special consideration too’.”

    This is the “Crawling Out of The Woodwork” argument the Government used against the family carers of high needs disabled NZ citizens during the Atkinson Human Rights Review Tribunal hearing.

    Bastards.

    (Can anyone else hear the rail cars clanking as they pull into the sidings….?)

    • Rosemary McDonald 5.1
      14 October 2015 at 7:55 am

      BUT….you will have a choice….

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/72984566/david-seymours-voluntary-euthanasia-bill-to-be-lodged-in-parliament

      Rather not have your illness or disability drag you and your family into financial despair????

    • savenz 5.2
      14 October 2015 at 8:23 am

      +1 Rosemary

      By the way as well as the incredibly heartless stance on Cancer there is also the absolute waste of taxpayers money on getting all those medical reports which are subsidised as well as the waste of time for the doctors and medical staff to supply such ridiculous level of documentation.

      Oh I have cancer, lets let the state know MONTHLY if I still have it. Disgusting on all levels.

      Sorry our hospitals are not so good as they cure cancer every month.

    • Mike the Savage One 5.3
      14 October 2015 at 8:40 am

      You beat me to it, I see, thanks for posting this comment!

      Indeed, what a disgrace, it takes the Cancer Society and terminal cancer sufferers to suddenly raise this OVER TWO YEARS after this was passed and introduced, and about three years since the submission process started:
      http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/legislation/bills/00DBHOH_BILL11634_1/social-security-benefit-categories-and-work-focus-amendment

      It appears that the Cancer Society did not present a submission then, probably because most felt they would never be affected by a draconian, inhumane benefit regime. But not all have working partners, or savings and other resources to fall back on when serious poor health hits them.

      And it was again only Radio NZ National that reported on it this morning, as far as I could hear it. Paul Henry was busy cracking silly jokes and relishing in rubbishing Andrew Little and Labour again (with the help of Paddy Gower).

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/286914/jobseeker-benefit-for-cancer-patients-'ludicrous‘

      Indeed, this new approach, to look rather at what people can (hypothetically) do, rather than what they cannot, which was brought in from the UK, and had been thought out by their “experts” like Mansel Aylward et al, from one ‘Centre for Psychosocial and Disability Research’ at Cardiff Uni, once generously “sponsored” by UNUM Provident (that nobody likes to mention these days), is insane and open to abuse by MSD and WINZ.

      And Carmel Sepuloni had nothing more to say, than she had “anecdotally” heard of such cases, where seriously sick were expected to jump through hoops to “prove” they are too sick to work. What have you been doing as opposition spokesperson on social security then? Perhaps more should get out of the comfort zone and talk to people directly affected? But I fear most are so pressured and fearful now, they dare not rock the boat, and rather “harden up”, before the final day comes, and try and struggle, also with mental illness and what else some have that is now considered not so serious anymore.

      As I remember, all this had been raised before:
      http://nzsocialjusticeblog2013.wordpress.com/2013/09/02/medical-and-work-capability-assessments-based-on-the-controversial-bio-psycho-social-model/

      http://nzsocialjusticeblog2013.wordpress.com/2013/12/28/designated-doctors-used-by-work-and-income-some-also-used-by-acc-the-truth-about-them/

      http://nzsocialjusticeblog2013.wordpress.com/2014/06/21/work-ability-assessments-done-for-work-and-income-a-revealing-fact-study-part-a/

      Radio NZ National presented an interview on this topic also some time ago:
      http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2592666/winz-expands-scheme-to-support-unemployed-with-illness-issues

      A post with some transcripts and comments on that one:
      http://nzsocialjusticeblog2013.wordpress.com/2014/06/22/work-ability-assessments-done-for-work-and-income-a-revealing-fact-study-part-d/

      And they have even changed the process they use for the Medical Appeals Board hearings some time ago, bringing in a “presenter” from MSD or WINZ to have an extra player in appeal hearings, supporting their new approaches:
      https://nzsocialjusticeblog2013.wordpress.com/2015/03/17/the-medical-appeal-board-how-msd-and-winz-have-secretely-changed-the-process-disadvantaging-beneficiaries/

      Have the MSM been fast asleep for two years, to not come across other stories of people being expected to look for work while being seriously sick or disabled?

      • Kay 5.3.1
        14 October 2015 at 10:04 am

        Mike @5.3 The MSM haven’t been fast asleep. We’re just not on their radar, why should we be? Unless of course we’re sprung for benefit fraud, now THAT’S good copy. Is my cynicism showing? I’ve been following the UK system with great fear, as you obviously have been. Note it’s only the left-wing papers (Guardian, Independent)that are reporting the ATOS and welfare reform tragedies going on there- it doesn’t even get a mention on the “impartial” BBC.

        I honestly thought in NZ, with our 1.5-2 degrees of separation, everyone really does know someone with some sort of long term disability, many of whom can’t work, there would be more of the general public who cared, but there aren’t, until it happens to them. And there’s noone who can say that they’ve never known someone who’s had cancer and have some idea what the treatment entails. That would include our beloved Minister; her response only confirms the psychopathy, ie incapable of empathy.

        As for Carmel Sepaloni- good that she’s bringing these things to the public’s attention but as happened with her pointing out the 18 years of benefit underpayments, Guyon couldn’t get her to say that she thinks we should be reimbursed. She was political point scoring off our backs, and just going along labour’s anti-benefit policy. So don’t expect any real work done on our behalf by her.

        • Chris 5.3.1.1
          14 October 2015 at 10:28 am

          “She was political point scoring off our backs, and just going along labour’s anti-benefit policy. So don’t expect any real work done on our behalf by her.”

          Totally. Labour hates beneficiaries. I don’t know what’s happened with the possibility of retrospective legislation papering over that one day of benefit payment thing, but it wouldn’t surprise if Labour votes with the government on it. That’s where things are at the moment – the first question when it comes to social welfare benefits and attacks on the poor is “will Labour vote with the government on this.” It’s quite incredible to think that’s where things have got to.

          • Rosemary McDonald 5.3.1.1.1
            14 October 2015 at 11:43 am

            “Labour hates beneficiaries. ”

            Now there’s a very interesting comment.

            (Which I agree with BTW, and add to beneficiaries ….non ACC disabled and others with long term medical conditions….the ‘incurables’)

            Considering the huff and puff from many on the Left about the Right’s attitude to “the poor” and “beneficiaries”…. it boggles the mind that when an example is presented about a specific group impacted by government policy, the usual flay brigade remain silent.

            Non-ACC disabled and those too sick to work have been treated like shit by various governments.

            Can’t see this changing any time soon.

            • Chris 5.3.1.1.1.1
              14 October 2015 at 9:34 pm

              The non-ACC disabled are reduced to living on a benefit for the whole of their lives because of something they cannot change. The NZ Disability Strategy and other core government documents sanction the idea of “an ordinary life” for all disabled people. Surely that must translate into rejecting the notion that disabled people must be reduced/forced/expected to live on a welfare benefit until they die? Surely this group must be treated differently and, perhaps, be given the equivalent of, say, at least the minimum wage? A percentage of the average wage? The average wage? Whatever the figure to condemn the non-ACC disabled to a life of poverty disgusts me.

              • Rosemary McDonald …
                15 October 2015 at 8:45 am

                “Surely that must translate into rejecting the notion that disabled people must be reduced/forced/expected to live on a welfare benefit until they die? Surely this group must be treated differently and, perhaps, be given the equivalent of, say, at least the minimum wage? A percentage of the average wage? The average wage? Whatever the figure to condemn the non-ACC disabled to a life of poverty disgusts me.”

                Going into WINZ as a person on the Supported Living Payment with your partner who is on the same benefit even though she provides you with all the care you have been assessed as needing is a humiliating and demoralising experience. You are scum, and treated like scum. (There is the odd WINZ employee who treats you like a human and gets that the system sucks, but they are rare)

                Then you go to WINZ to transition to National Super.

                And OMG…there is a separate waiting area (apart from the hoipolloi), and its all smiles, respect and congratulations.

                We eschewed the special seating…we know where we belong.

                Chris…the NZ Disability Strategy, along with the Carers Strategy and the UN Convention are the foundation documents for the so called advocacy organisations who happily accept $millions from the government for a pantomime of representation.

                • Chris …
                  15 October 2015 at 11:13 am

                  “…the NZ Disability Strategy, along with the Carers Strategy and the UN Convention are the foundation documents for the so called advocacy organisations who happily accept $millions from the government for a pantomime of representation.”

                  I’ve got a niece with an intellectual disability who used to live in an IHC residence. She had an average sort of an existence which is why my sister took her out of there. But I was always intrigued by IHC management people, probably from their head office, who you’d hear on the radio talking about this unfairness or that unfairness. Something never quite rang true. It was as if they didn’t really know what they were talking about or that they didn’t really ever want anything to change. I don’t know exactly what it is. But this post on The Daily Blog and some of the comments, particularly this one, get as close as I’ve seen to explaining it.

                  http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2015/09/28/ihc-helping-national-abandon-vulnerable-families/#comment-306664

            • Chris 5.3.1.1.1.2
              14 October 2015 at 9:44 pm

              Labour didn’t always hate beneficiaries but it does now. Labour’s always been “the party for workers”, or so it says. Labour still says that. It’s just that its idea of who the workers are has changed. It used to be the “pool of labour”. Now it’s only those with a job, the employed, the workers. And that explains why Labour’s quite happy voting with Key’s government for legislation that attacks beneficiaries, and how its managed to shift its view of beneficiaries and the poor to one of hatred towards them, without too many people noticing.

          • Kay 5.3.1.1.2
            14 October 2015 at 12:24 pm

            Chris @5.3.1.1- I emailed Ms Sepaloni to her parliament address the day of that interview, both thanking her for bringing the matter to our attention, but also to express my disappointment in her response to Guyons questioning. 4 weeks later not even an acknowledgement my email was received, or a bounced back email. So it got there alright, but I’m guessing I can add myself to the list of voters who are having their emails ignored by MPs if they don’t like the subject matter. Seems to be a growing trend from what I’m hearing.
            I was toying with the idea of re-sending it and asking for an update on the situation but I suspect that email will conviniently not make it either.

            And Labour wonder where so many of their votes went after 1999? Ask the beneficiary bloc.

            • Mike the Savage One 5.3.1.1.2.1
              14 October 2015 at 4:42 pm

              Now there would be about close to 300 thousand potential votes, or say, at least 100 to 200 thousand, going by a conservative estimate. If they would be more honest, and trustworthy, and also explain to the other voters they want to attract, that social justice and fairness must come first, and that it is in our all interest, they may even be able to “harvest” votes in that “centre” and from beneficiaries.

              So far a gigantic FAIL by Labour, simply ignoring so many potential voters, also other disillusioned. Look at Sanders in the US, putting pressure on Clinton, at 74 years of age, attracting many students and other young voters, look at Corbyn in the UK, when do Labour damned wake up? It can be done!

              • Chris …
                14 October 2015 at 9:25 pm

                Beneficiaries in NZ are too busy doing everything they can to feed their families. Benefits aren’t enough to do that so way more time is taken up dealing with that problem, including trying to avoid being kicked off the benefit in the first place.

        • Rosemary McDonald 5.3.1.2
          14 October 2015 at 11:53 am

          @Kay 5.3.1

          “I honestly thought in NZ, with our 1.5-2 degrees of separation, everyone really does know someone with some sort of long term disability, many of whom can’t work, there would be more of the general public who cared, but there aren’t, until it happens to them. And there’s noone who can say that they’ve never known someone who’s had cancer and have some idea what the treatment entails. That would include our beloved Minister; her response only confirms the psychopathy, ie incapable of empathy.”

          Deserves to be repeated that…spot on.

          Every last word.

      • Rosemary McDonald 5.3.2
        14 October 2015 at 11:48 am

        Yep…same old same old isn’t it Mike TSO.

        Scream it from the highest rooftop in the loudest voice and those who will not listen won’t.

        If there was anything approaching an Opposition Party in NZ, they would be screaming “unfuckingacceptable!!!”.

        Yet…watch the cross- Party accord on Voluntary Euthanasia.

        • Mike the Savage One 5.3.2.1
          14 October 2015 at 4:34 pm

          Rosemary, the problem we face is much greater than even many insiders are aware of. Even the Health and Disability Commissioner, same as the Office of Ombudsmen, seem to take a very dim view of the fate of some of those with permanent sickness and disability, especially if it involves mental health conditions. Strangely medical practitioners seem to be given more “credit” when it comes to complaints:

          https://nzsocialjusticeblog2013.wordpress.com/2015/10/04/how-the-n-z-health-and-disability-commissioner-let-off-a-biased-designated-doctor/

          Hence I and a few friends celebrated Jane Kelsey’s and her friends’ win at court yesterday, it really exposed how useless the Ombudsmen (and other Officers of Parliament) have been, at least in some cases:
          http://thestandard.org.nz/congratulations-jane-kelsey/#comment-1082082

          So while I have great reservations about the Taxpayers’ Union, they make a valid point also, re Beverley Wakem and some of her decisions, and the general disgusting situation of the OIA process having become farcical. Our democracy has been under threat for a while, this has never been shown so damned clearly.

          • Rosemary McDonald 5.3.2.1.1
            14 October 2015 at 5:31 pm

            “Hence I and a few friends celebrated Jane Kelsey’s and her friends’ win at court yesterday,”

            Yes. One of those occasions when a cry of triumph cannot be contained.

            (Even if passersby thought we had lost the plot.)

            Its well past time for Kiwis to demand a stop to this…yet so many are locked into the mindless drivel that passes for ‘news’ and ‘journalism’.

            How do we get the attention of those who would care if only they had the information???

            • Mike the Savage One 5.3.2.1.1.1
              14 October 2015 at 7:13 pm

              My message is clear: Persist, keep it up, send the messages, remind them all out there, do NEVER stop telling and sharing the truth, the truth will prevail in the end, comment on all blogs there are, even on Kiwiblog, that is as long as we stand for the truth, and in that I HAVE NO DOUBT!

      • left for deadshark 5.3.3
        14 October 2015 at 2:34 pm

        I’ve just popped in for a visit, Good post MTS one. 🙂

      • left for deadshark 5.3.4
        14 October 2015 at 2:44 pm

        Just popped in, Good post MST one. 🙂

    • Chris 5.4
      14 October 2015 at 10:22 am

      I remember hearing about someone refused the invalid’s benefit because their condition wasn’t going to last for two years or more. They had cancer and about six months to live. The condition wasn’t likely to last for two years or more because they weren’t going to last for two years or more! I think that’s been fixed up now, but the fact it happened illustrates the attitude.

    • Jo 5.5
      14 October 2015 at 1:00 pm

      Just like the young lady from Crewe
      who once found a mouse in her stew.
      Said the waiter, “Don’t shout
      and wave it about,
      or the others will all want one too.”

      • One Anonymous Bloke 5.5.1
        14 October 2015 at 4:12 pm

        But that didn’t bother the lady,
        Brought up in an orphanage shady,
        “From where I’m sittin’,
        I don’t mind it shittin’,
        So long as it doesn’t have rabies.”

    • Sacha 5.6
      14 October 2015 at 7:43 pm

      “Can anyone else hear the rail cars clanking as they pull into the sidings…”

      Quite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_T4
      Most people have no idea this happened.

  6. savenz 6
    14 October 2015 at 8:17 am

    Yahya Hassan gives his baby daughter a last kiss goodbye. The 3 year old girl was killed by an Israeli airstrike on Gaza last night. Their house collapsed on them while they slept. Her mother Nour who was 5 months pregnant was also killed in the blast.

    https://kiaoragaza.wordpress.com/2015/10/12/a-fathers-last-kiss-goodbye/

  9. millsy 9
    14 October 2015 at 8:51 am

    I think more and more people will take up income protection insurance to avoid the clutches of WINZ when they fall sick. Can’t say I would blame them.At least the insurance company would leave you with enough money to pay bills and buy food after you pay rent/mortgage.

    I dont know why people think that people live a caviar and champagne lifestyle on a benefit.

    • Chris 9.1
      14 October 2015 at 11:18 am

      Yeah, just look at all those malingerers, choosing to be poor. It’s a disgrace.

    • savenz 9.2
      14 October 2015 at 1:13 pm

      @Millsy

      I would read the fine print if I was you because a lot of those policies sold to the poor do not kick in, until you qualify for unemployment benefit. If you can’t get that then you don’t get the pay out.

    • Sacha 9.3
      14 October 2015 at 7:46 pm

      Hey it worked for a certain Mr Slater, for a while.

    • Lanthanide 9.4
      15 October 2015 at 9:07 am

      Yeah, cause private insurers are such an upstanding bunch, always doing the best for their clients and never trying to weasel out of their obligations. As the people of Christchurch found out.

  10. Wairua 10
    14 October 2015 at 9:25 am

    Re the Rugby World Cup obsession .. I have a simple solution.

    Put the champion of Islamic State (al-Baghdadi ?) together with his counterpart (Vladimir ?) in a spare Roman ampitheatre and to the victor go the spoils.

    Think of the ratings.

  11. marty mars 11
    14 October 2015 at 9:53 am

    this ones for you doc

    “Opponents of government aid to the poor often argue that the poor are not really poor. The evidence they are fond of is often an inappropriate comparison, usually with people in other countries: “Thus we can say that by global standards there are no poor people in the US at all: the entire country is at least middle class or better” (Tim Worstall in Forbes). Sometimes the comparison is with earlier times, as in this quote from Heritage’s Robert Rector: “‘Poor’ Americans today are better housed, better fed, and own more property than did the average US citizen throughout much of the 20th Century.””

    http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2015/10/13/arent-the-poor-comparatively-rich-the-fallacy-of-faulty-comparison/

  12. Draco T Bastard 12
    14 October 2015 at 10:45 am

    The Real Secrets to Grand Fortune

    Too Much: Behind every great fortune, Honoré de Balzac quipped back in the 19th century, lies a great crime. How might you edit that aphorism for today?

    Sam Wilkin: Balzac was onto something. Most of the best wealth secrets from back in the age of the “robber barons” — Rockefeller, Carnegie, Morgan — would today be illegal.

    The vast fortune of the Rockefeller clan, to somewhat oversimplify a fascinating story, was arguably built on cartels — not illegal at the time, but made illegal shortly thereafter. Pierpont Morgan’s “money trust,” which helped make Andrew Carnegie the world’s richest man, was constructed in part via interlocking directorships that were, shortly thereafter, outlawed.

    The new monopolists like to claim that they face competition when really they don’t.

    A lot of what went on in the modern banking sector in the 2000s, and that to some extent still goes on today, probably won’t be legal five to ten years from now.

    So, to update Balzac: “Behind every great fortune lies something that was not a crime when it happened, but probably should have been.”

    Most definitely an interesting interview.

  13. Chooky 13
    14 October 2015 at 11:27 am

    The other side of the story:

    ‘MH17 shot with BUK missile, Ukraine failed to close airspace’

    https://www.rt.com/news/318536-mh17-investigation-dutch-report/

    ‘BUK producer detonates missiles next to pilot’s cockpit in real-life MH17 experiment (VIDEO)’

    https://www.rt.com/news/318505-almaz-antey-video-simulation/

    • Chooky 13.1
      14 October 2015 at 3:55 pm

      and ‘MH17 report’

      https://www.rt.com/shows/crosstalk/318603-mh17-report-investigation-results/

      ‘Fifteen months after the tragic loss of MH17 over war-torn Ukraine the Dutch Safety Board has presented the results of its investigation. From the very beginning the explicit aim of this probe was to determine why the plane was destroyed in midair. Will we ever learn the “who” and “why” parts of this tragedy?CrossTalking with John Laughland, Alexander Mercouris, and Dmitry Babich.”

    • Psycho Milt 13.2
      14 October 2015 at 9:17 pm

      ‘BUK producer detonates missiles next to pilot’s cockpit in real-life MH17 experiment (VIDEO)’

      Take the damage shown in the video and figure out exactly how it would be amplified if the missile and aircraft had a closing speed of a couple of thousand kph and the aircraft cabin was pressurised way above the outside atmosphere. You can’t? That’s why the video is completely useless, except for propaganda purposes.

  14. Puckish Rogue 14
    14 October 2015 at 11:48 am

    David Seymour is doing some good work in the house as of late…might have to start thinking about changing my party vote again

    • Naki man 14.1
      14 October 2015 at 12:01 pm

      Did you like his recent comment that “the French love the cock”

    • Grant 14.2
      14 October 2015 at 12:03 pm

      says the man who claims he’s a centrist.

      • Puckish Rogue 14.2.1
        14 October 2015 at 12:40 pm

        I am so I’d like a centrist party in power (National) but National will still need support partners and maybe if Act get more seats then Peter Dunne can get the boot

        • Grant 14.2.1.1
          14 October 2015 at 2:21 pm

          “I am so I’d like a centrist party in power (National)..”
          Lying again…
          http://www.politicalcompass.org/nz2014

          • Puckish Rogue 14.2.1.1.1
            14 October 2015 at 2:46 pm

            Those questions were a bit skewed towards the left 🙂

            • Grant 14.2.1.1.1.1
              14 October 2015 at 4:10 pm

              No they weren’t.
              It’s Ok, don’t feel shy.
              I can understand why you’d be embarrassed to admit your desire to vote for Act or National, the extreme right parties of NZ politics.

              • Puckish Rogue …
                14 October 2015 at 4:28 pm

                I was also working at the same time so my concentration was on other things!

                • McFlock …
                  14 October 2015 at 4:58 pm

                  lol

                  ah, the “I can’t remember my opinion” defence.

                • Grant …
                  14 October 2015 at 5:16 pm

                  You still haven’t looked at the political compass which shows the relative positions of the political parties have you?

                  Even though several commenters have linked to it for you? See the link at my comment 14.2.1.1: It shows that National and Act are furthest to the authoritarian right on the spectrum of NZ politics. You can claim that you made a hash of filling out your personal compass, but you can’t deny your self expressed preference for those two parties.

                  Ergo, you are not a centrist. In NZ terms you are an extreme rightist.

                  Also if it’s fair enough to call the Greens “hard left” as many of your fellow travelers like Wayne Mapp do, then it is equally fair to call National voters such as yourself “hard right”, is it not?

                  It is pitiable that I am still trying to get an intellectually honest answer from you so long into the conversation.

    • millsy 14.3
      16 October 2015 at 6:01 am

      I have to admit that Seymour has been greatly underestimated by the left. He will probably be more effective at articulating ACT policies than Prebble, Hide, Banks, Brash and Whyte ever have/will.

  15. Naki man 15
    14 October 2015 at 11:52 am

    There is a very interesting article on three news….

    “Labour is swallowing an enormous, filthy, stinking, rotten, maggot-infested dead rat called the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP).”

    Read more: http://www.3news.co.nz/opinion/opinion-labour-swallowing-tppa-rats-2015101316#ixzz3oUVXNHqw

  16. joe90 16
    14 October 2015 at 12:34 pm

    The ultimate irony – it’s getting cold, can we please move south.

    The second study, meanwhile, seeks to explain the Younger Dryas, a cold period that began abruptly 12,900 years ago, as the planet was actually coming out of a glacial period and entering the present interglacial. Suddenly, though, temperatures swung back and became quite cold again for more than a thousand years, leading glaciers and ice sheets to rebuild. And once again, a change in Atlantic ocean circulation has long been a leading suspect in causing this dramatic, sudden event.

    “The start of the Younger Dryas was in a couple of years, really five years or so,” says Hans Renssen of VU University Amsterdam in the Netherlands, who led the research, along with scientists from Belgium, France, the United Kingdom, Norway and Switzerland.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/10/12/why-the-earths-past-has-scientists-so-worried-about-the-atlantic-oceans-circulation/

  17. Stuart Munro 17
    14 October 2015 at 1:53 pm

    Awesome performance by Bill English, delivering a technical surplus after only seven years. His government has always been a day late and a dollar short, but Bill is seven years late and $101 billion short.

    The gibbering incompetence of far-right neo con ideologues is virtually infinite, being compromised of the second most abundant thing in the universe – 1 being hydrogen & 2 being stupidity.

    • Pat 18.1
      14 October 2015 at 2:57 pm

      if it were a poll this surplus would be within the margin of error……

    • Stuart Munro 18.2
      14 October 2015 at 4:22 pm

      Yes indeed

      worse than useless – nothing can make amends for the damage they have done to the NZ economy – but confiscating all their property and imprisoning them for life would be a good place to start.

      Useless treacherous wasters.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 18.2.1
        14 October 2015 at 6:10 pm

        The law allows Cabinet Club and other examples of money-laundering. The National Party is merely filling a gap in the market.

        Get the money out of politics.

      • Sacha 18.2.2
        14 October 2015 at 8:43 pm

        “imprisoning them for life would be a good place to start.”

        I for one welcome such trials.

        • Stuart Munro 18.2.2.1
          14 October 2015 at 10:09 pm

          Yeah – better keep the trials short I think – some people mistake notoriety for fame – Gower, Slater, Key for a start.

    • DoublePlusGood 18.3
      14 October 2015 at 4:44 pm

      When the national debt is something like $100 billion, this surplus is basically irrelevant.

    • leftie 18.4
      14 October 2015 at 5:34 pm

      @Puckish Rogue

      For what? a pseudo surplus? Or the unprecedented level of debt National are clocking up?

      • Stuart Munro 18.4.1
        15 October 2015 at 1:07 am

        It actually shows how feudal the ‘right’ are in NZ that folk like Hooten aren’t all over this maladministration for non-performance. Real growth – ex Christchurch & migration – at under 0.5% – if growth is their policy object they’re failures of truly awesome proportions. Screwups have no friends, left or right.

  19. Macro 19
    14 October 2015 at 2:20 pm

    Will Michael Woodhouse resign?
    Documents clearly show that Woodhouse not only lied to the people but also to Parliament when he said that he had not intervened and the exclusion of Dairy as a High Risk Industry wasn’t deliberate, but based on an the risks.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11528604

    I’m not holding my breath – just watch this sort of corruptness go whoooooosh over the heads of the sheeple – their house prices are still making more than them.

    • ianmac 19.1
      14 October 2015 at 4:03 pm

      Question 10 today from IAIN LEES-GALLOWAY to the Minister for Workplace Relations and Safety was answered by not Woodhouse, but the “enthusiastic Dr Smith who argued quite differently.
      http://www.inthehouse.co.nz/video/40020
      When Woodhouse is in a hole he hides. Smith will and has dug him out of the hole – sort of.
      It would have been a Cabinet decision to protect farmers and Woodhouse would have just been following orders – perhaps.

      • Macro 19.1.1
        14 October 2015 at 4:24 pm

        The relationship between Smith and the truth of the matter, is somewhat strained at best.

        It would have been a Cabinet decision to protect farmers and Woodhouse would have just been following orders

        No doubt about it.
        So Woodhouse avoids telling porkies in Parliament again, and has someone else do it for him.. Lovely!

  20. SPC 20
    14 October 2015 at 3:01 pm

    Does the Labour Party have a problem with a more open and democratic process for candidate selection – something that has been developed for leadership races?

    Is there a problem with people forming organised lobby groups within the party membership to agitate for this change?

    And if so, who with/for – unions, groups that have managed to secure quotas for themselves (the national organisations involvement in selecting local candidates)?

    • Sacha 20.1
      14 October 2015 at 8:51 pm

      “Is there a problem with people forming organised lobby groups within the party membership to agitate for this change?”

      Pagani/Nash et al?

  21. ianmac 21
    14 October 2015 at 4:12 pm

    “The man arrested in connection with the disappearance of Alex Fisher is his older brother Eric McIsaac.”
    Note that the Judge asked for a Psychiatric report. Pretty awful for so many reasons.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11529097

    • Anne 21.1
      14 October 2015 at 7:27 pm

      It was pretty obvious from the start that the man arrested for burglary was Alex Fisher’s brother. Otherwise we would have heard from him because he was the last person the young lad was seen with. Deeply sad for all concerned.

      • Morrissey 21.1.1
        14 October 2015 at 9:08 pm

        Let’s just hope that the Sensible Sentencing Trust, that gang of callous publicity seekers and vultures that feed off human misery, are nowhere to be seen in the inevitable media coverage of this tragedy.

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