Open mike 15/06/2023

83 comments on “Open mike 15/06/2023 ”

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1. Tony Veitch 1

   15 June 2023 at 6:10 am

   During Key's doubtful reign in NZ politics, a commentator/moderator on the Standard, blip, compiled a very long list of all Key's lies and half truths.

   Is it time someone did the same for Luxon's gaffes and walkbacks?

   I’ll start the ball rolling, his very first action as LOTO:

   1. a 200 metre ride in a hired limo to parliament.
   • Barfly 1.1

     15 June 2023 at 10:13 am

     2."bottom feeders"
     • Patricia Bremner 1.1.1

       15 June 2023 at 12:19 pm

       100% Barfly.
     • Tony Veitch 1.1.2

       15 June 2023 at 1:41 pm

       1. "very negative, wet and whiney, inward looking . . ."
2. Roy Cartland 2

   15 June 2023 at 7:14 am

   I quite like Morgan Godfrey's writing, though I'm getting serious Piggy Muldoon (or is it John Lithgow?) vibes from his picture. Not a criticism, just an ob. On ya Morgan ❤️
   • Sanctuary 2.1

     15 June 2023 at 7:45 am

     He gets a piece in the Guardian, which drives a lot of righties nuts and he (usually) offers a genuine left wing perspective. And he isn't that mind bendingly smug liberal centrist Danyl Mclauchlan, so there is that.
     • roy cartland 2.1.1

       15 June 2023 at 9:20 am

       I quite like him actually, he seems pretty on point most of the time. His commentary comes across as sensible and non-confrontational, a bit like Brian Easton's. I know he gets up Bomber Bradbury's nose, but who doesn't.
       • Sanctuary 2.1.1.1

         15 June 2023 at 9:54 am

         The whole TDB schtick is to provide a platform for fringe merchants, perennial protestors and the bitter to indiscriminately target anyone they think is in the "establishment" with the use often of abusive language. If you were to (for example) replace in one of Bradbury's rants "professional middle class" with "Jewish bankers" it would be indistinguishable from hate speech. That is why he doth protesteth too much at hate speech legislation – Bradbury knows he crosses the line into appalling online bullying and abuse all the time and he'd ne totally in the crosshairs of a regulator.
         • Dennis Frank 2.1.1.1.1

           15 June 2023 at 10:57 am

           Re hate speech legislation, I googled it to ascertain the latest state of the art. Got this Feb update:

           Hipkins yesterday announced the government's watered-down hate speech legislation would be dropped as part of his purge

           https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/483947/hate-speech-law-too-important-to-rush-through-islamic-associations-abdur-razzaq

           Rather like a unicorn hunt, eh? People think it exists, but evidence seems impossible to find. Perhaps we can see proposed law reforms as akin to the envelope of possibilities used by physicists. In this analogy enacting legislation collapses the wave function.

           Hipkins played his tough hand with that purge. Not quite as tough as Stalin's purges of the 1930s, but enough to show that relentless controlling of deviant tendencies remains part of left-wing political praxis. The pc crowd yielded in instant submission, apparently. There's been a noticeable lack of rabble marching in the streets calling for the downfall of Hipkins in consequence.
3. tWiggle 3

   15 June 2023 at 7:56 am

   The inevitable end product of stoking anti trans ideas:

   a Canadian spectator at a local school athletics meet asks officials to debar a 9yo girl who had a pixie cut, claiming she is a boy or trans

   an organised mob of 14 yo US students destroys a Pride week display set up by by other LGBTQ students in their school, chanting 'USA is my pronoun'.

   Give people a focus and a licence to hate, saturate social media with ugly transphobe and 'groomer' and 'mutilator' memes, and this is what happens. Comment under a NZ social media post about the 9yo accused of being trans: 'my daughter's already been hassled in toilets because she has short hair'. Thanks, Posie Parker.
   • roy cartland 3.1

     15 June 2023 at 9:30 am

     Qui bono? The 'metaverse' and its pushers I reckon.
   • Visubversa 3.2

     15 June 2023 at 10:08 am

     No – that is what you get when aggressive gender ideologists demand the complete removal of all safeguarding for women and children, the removal of any and all of the sex based rights and protections women fought for over the last couple of centuries, deny the very existence of same sex attraction, and promote the chemical castration and sexual mutilation of neurodiverse and same sex attracted children.
     • tWiggle 3.2.1

       15 June 2023 at 10:24 am

       If you look at the facts, in the US and UK, GC activists and christian extremists, have advocated against, then stripped away, existing legal rights from the trans community.

       [please name the laws that have been changed in the US, and the UK, that remove rights from trans people. Be specific to the laws and provide back up in the form of links. You are possibly right about the US, I don’t think you are right about the UK, but we need the details of what you are meaning so that we can respond meaningfully and not descend into SM tit for tat. Thanks – weka]
       • Visubversa 3.2.1.1

         15 June 2023 at 10:41 am

         What "legal rights" would those be then?
         • Tiger Mountain 3.2.1.1.1

           15 June 2023 at 12:00 pm

           The patriarchy rolls on it seems…to paraphrase comedian Ricky Gervais…“are you into old school women with uteruses or the trendy new ones with cocks and balls?…”

           Politicised Lesbian women are some of the staunchest allies in class battles I have ever met in a lengthy career, “non men” is blatant misogyny and misuse of language and meaning.

           I support all exploited and oppressed people in our capitalist society on a class left basis. I defend the rights of trans people to live their lives unharrassed, and I also support the 50% of the population–women–having their own spaces and hard fought for rights defended.

           Some trans activists are playing a classic divisive card politically. In all but a tiny number of people, in terms of chromosomes, Trans women are trans women and women are women. As Scientific American put it in 2021 “An individual should not need to justify their gender identity any more than someone would need to justify their eye color.” It is more realised now that gender is a social construct that is evolving. Back in the 70s it was common for males like me with long hair to get…“what is it…a boy or a girl…” type comments.

           Non trans should respect trans rights and vice versa is what it comes down to.
           • Visubversa 3.2.1.1.1.1

             15 June 2023 at 12:44 pm

             Sorry, but in "terms of chromosomes", "trans women" are XY – they are men. They may state that they have a special identity – an "gendered soul" which makes them not a man, but the truth is still in every drop of their blood.

             Their "gender identity" is certainly a social construct in that it is an identification with a set of sexist stereotypes usually reserved for the opposite sex. They can certainly call themselves what they want – the test is whether or not they are legally entitled to any and every one of the rights which women have gained in society.
             • Tiger Mountain …

               15 June 2023 at 2:02 pm

               I did not make my self clear enough perhaps, yes they are genetically men except in a tiny number of cases contested by various scientists over the internet–but they consider themselves women. Which is why I counterposed trans women to women–two different beings–one self identified, but in reality both able to be confirmed by DNA.

               https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/q-a-mixed-sex-biology/
               • Visubversa …

                 15 June 2023 at 3:13 pm

                 The problem with this is that DSD's (Differences of Sex Development) have nothing to do with transgenderism, and are just variations on male or variations on female. This is demonstrated by the fact that those that are fertile (and many are not) produce either sperm or eggs. There are no additional gametes and therefore no additional sexes.

                 They fall in to about 40 different medical syndromes which are detectable by a chromosome test.

                 The weaponisation of these conditions to support gender ideology does nobody any good.

                 https://differently-normal.com/2021/10/25/the-invention-of-intersex/
           • weka 3.2.1.1.1.2

             15 June 2023 at 3:47 pm

             very well put TM.

             you might enjoy this thread. It's the 1980s, I wonder how much had changed by then.

             https://twitter.com/GrantJupiter/status/1668681538509086724
             • Tiger Mountain …

               15 June 2023 at 4:49 pm

               It depended on what circles you moved in really, and geography played a role too. Androgynous people certainly had their fans among teens “in my day”–it’s still my day of course or would not bother commenting!

               There were always trans and gays around but it was more an underground and nightlife scene apart from cultural events and maybe widened in the 80s with the gay focused clubs and public fight for Homosexual Law Reform.

               I guess the shift from working for mainstream acceptance to the confrontations of recent years with some trans activists has partly been down to…

               • the medicalisation and profit motive in gender issues in the 21st century
               • Neo liberal individualism–me me me–has trumped collective ways to some extent and emphasised identity
               • Post Modernist philosophy where anything can mean anything, as opposed to existentialism and materialism where there can be agreed terms even among opponents
               • Social Media–half the world now seems to have brains like busted mirrors and hooked on a massive 24/7 info flow rather than making time for reflection and learning.

               here endeth etc…
       • weka 3.2.1.2

         15 June 2023 at 11:38 am

         mod note. please attend to this before you comment again, thanks.
       • tWiggle 3.2.1.3

         15 June 2023 at 1:54 pm

         weka, why does Visubversa, who does not quote any references to rebut my original links (which are to well balanced and factual media reporting) not get this same moderator comment from you?
         • weka 3.2.1.3.1

           15 June 2023 at 2:46 pm

           I’ll be happy to look at that once you have responded to my mod request 👍
           • tWiggle 3.2.1.3.1.1

             15 June 2023 at 3:28 pm

             CNN give a thorough account of the categories of anti-trans and anti-gay bills presented to US state legislatures in the past 5 years. Over 417 alone, a huge jump, were introduced just this year til April. Of those, 15 States had passed legislation by April.

             In the UK, the overide by the UK government of self-id legislation passed by the devolved Scottish Parliament last year is a removal of trans rights. And Kemi Badenoch has signalled she will change the UK Human Rights Act 2010 to remove existing trans rights. As the UK has no self-id law, this will apply to all trans women who have had those rights for more than a decade. Qcic.
             • weka …

               15 June 2023 at 4:41 pm

               thanks.

               I followed that CNN link and it took me down a rabbit hole where I found no explanations of the legislations, or what they do. You also didn’t say. There was this,

               Senate Bill 16, which the governor signed a day after it was sent to his desk by the Utah Legislature, prohibits health care providers from “providing a hormonal transgender treatment to new patients who were not diagnosed with gender dysphoria before a certain date” and prohibits them from “performing sex characteristic surgical procedures on a minor for the purpose of effectuating a sex change.”

               It also directs the Utah Department of Health and Human Services to conduct a “systematic review of the medical evidence regarding hormonal transgender treatments.”

               I did find a reference to Senate Bill 16 (Utah), unfortunately I can’t get the link to load, so I’ll come back to this https://le.utah.gov/~2023/bills/static/SB0016.html On the face of it, I’m guessing that stopping experimental surgeries on teens is good idea, and I will come back to this with explanation and links too.

               The second bit in the quote about Utah, “systematic review of the medical evidence regarding hormonal transgender treatments.”, is consistent with many other countries, including NZ. This has been well covered on TS in posts and comments over a long time, links below.

               I cannot see a problem with mandating such a review in law, and I fail to see how reviewing medical practice has “stripped away, existing legal rights from the trans community.” It will in fact protect trans people from overmedicalisation and medical negligence, as well as protecting children and teens that have been coralled into a medical model path of gender non-conformity that has already harmed many. Again, links below.

               From my perspective, the CNN link is relatively useless. What it does is repeat gender ideology talking points and link to other CNN pages based in the same. It doesn’t name specific legislation, explain what the legislation is, and explain how this negatively impacts on trans people.

               I can only assume that this is the kind of material you are reading and that you too don’t know the answers to those things but have just adopted a general, vague opinion that all these Bills are bad for trans people.

               I have no doubt that some of the legislation is. I also believe that the US is in a conservative backlash against trans people.

               However for robust debate here we need facts to work with not ideological position statements. Myself, I want to know what’s in the legislation so that I can understand both the nature of the backlash, but also the central dynamic of why so many people are joining the the conservatives on this, almost surely because they don’t agree with minors transitioning in the way that is currently happening (overmedicalisation, surgical experimentation), and they don’t agree with the kind of material being taught to kids (age inappropriate).

               The links in the next comment are akin to your CNN link and require you do the reading and parsing and figuring it all out. I want to demonstrate just how disrespectful that is to TS and mods here. I’ll let you out of premod, but I will make a note in the back end, because my patience isn’t limitless on this. Next time you make an assertion of fact I will expect specific details. That means an explanation by you, and then quotes and links to back that up. It doesn’t mean dropping links and expecting others to do a lot of reading to try and parse your point.

               [commented edited]
               • weka …

                 15 June 2023 at 4:45 pm

                 https://thestandard.org.nz/search/puberty+blockers/?search_posts=true&search_sortby=date

                 https://thestandard.org.nz/search/puberty+blockers/?search_comments=true&search_sortby=date

                 https://thestandard.org.nz/search/Tavistock/?search_posts=true&search_sortby=date

                 https://thestandard.org.nz/search/tavistock/?search_comments=true&search_sortby=date

                 https://thestandard.org.nz/search/detrans/?search_posts=true&search_sortby=date

                 https://thestandard.org.nz/search/detrans/?search_comments=true&search_sortby=date

                 At least in those links you will find actual explanations of what people are talking about.
                 • tWiggle …

                   15 June 2023 at 5:22 pm

                   Did you even bother to read the entirely factual CNN article, weka? It factually enumerates ALL categories of anti trans and antigay legislation proposed in the US.

                   To cherrypick a single aspect that you want to emphasise and to ignore the many other elements of anti-trans laws: the anti-education, anti-drag in public, and removal of affirming medical care for all trans people, not just children? That doesn't negate the facts in the CNN article.

                   I provided factual articles as requested. When will you chase up Visubversa? Qcic.

                   Trans people are moving out of Florida and Texas because they rightfully fear for their safety and future.

                   [you made the claim of fact that existing legal rights from trans people had been stripped away in the US and the UK.

                   The onus is on you to make your argument and provide evidence for that when asked.

                   Links are insufficient on their own.

                   It’s not up to me as a moderator to use my own time to read a lot of material in order to parse your points. Or other comnenters. I’ve already explained the problems with the CNN link (it doesn’t appear to support what you claimed).

                   In order to back up your claim that existing legal rights from trans people had been stripped away in the US and the UK you need to do three things,

                   1. explain in your own words what the legislation is ie name the Bill and describe what it does
                   2. provide quotes to back that up
                   3. link to where you got the quotes from.

                   If that information is in the CNN link, you can use that, but you still have to explain, quote as well as link. Otherwise, please do the work to find the material and bring it to the table.

                   • weka]
                   • weka …

                     15 June 2023 at 8:04 pm

                     mod note.
             • weka …

               15 June 2023 at 4:50 pm

               In the UK, the overide by the UK government of self-id legislation passed by the devolved Scottish Parliament last year is a removal of trans rights. And Kemi Badenoch has signalled she will change the UK Human Rights Act 2010 to remove existing trans rights. As the UK has no self-id law, this will apply to all trans women who have had those rights for more than a decade. Qcic.

               So no existing rights of trans people have been removed in the UK.

               The first example was to prevent self-ID law that would remove women's sex based rights.

               Re the second example, what rights specifically will be removed.

               Please explain because all you are doing is still making vague declarations and expecting others to read your links and parse what you mean. You've been here long enough to know that's not how it works.
     • roy cartland 3.2.2

       15 June 2023 at 11:38 am

       Totally agree. My point is that the reason this is so prevalent and encouraged online, is that when people hate each other they want to spend more time (and money) in their alt worlds, online. And when people hate themselves enough, they'll opt for a world where they can escape and be anything they want.

       We may think we are immune, but the mighty algs affect us too.
   • weka 3.3

     15 June 2023 at 12:04 pm

     Then there are things like this,

     The Biden administration said transgender activist Rose Montoya will not be invited back to the White House following her decision to go topless during the Pride Month event on the South Lawn.

     …

     Among the attendees was Montoya, a transgender rights activist who rose to prominence in 2021 for her educational social media content about transgender issues. On Monday, Montoya posted a video to her Instagram and TikTok accounts, recapping the White House picnic. One of the clips showed Montoya holding her bare breasts on the South Lawn.

     …

     Montoya's video drew fierce backlash from conservatives online, but Montoya's decision to go topless also upset some supporters of LGBTQ+ rights.

     "[Y]our feckless topless stunt has set us back further! Those of us who have been clawing and fighting for equality will not forgive you," one Instagram user commented under the video.

     https://www.newsweek.com/white-house-bars-topless-transgender-influencer-events-pride-lgbtq-1806366

     Of course in a country like the US, with a large religious and conservative population, actions like this are going to prompt a backlash. But it's not just a type of conservatism, lots of people would find it inappropriate socially and politically to do what the TW did. So in addition to the conservatives who hate trans people and want them not to exist, there is another, large group of people who are probably ok with trans people but will absolutely push back against the excesses of gender identity activitism. This is clearly happening in the area of sport, women's spaces, and child social and medical transition.

     The elephant on the White House South Lawn of course is autogynephilia, the sexual fetish of some males who get aroused from thinking of themselves as women (or a stereotype of women). I have no idea if Montoya is AGP, and if that was a motivation in their actions, but the fact that AGP is both known to exist, is demonstrated in transgressive ways frequently, and is largely denied by the rainbow community and allies as well as most liberals, politicians and the media class, means that it's always going to be in question.

     Once we get to have an open and frank conversation about AGP, things will change. The irony here is that liberals seem conservative in their thinking in their refusal to even acknowledge the existence of AGP. Which means the narratives about AGP are left to the right and to the GC people who think its disgusting and thus tar all trans people with the same brush.
     • Visubversa 3.3.1

       15 June 2023 at 12:58 pm

       The Right , of course makes absolute hay over that sort of thing. It is not politically sustainable and has real world electoral consequences.

       The West Virginia Governors' race was a lot closer until voters were confronted with the sight of a father being dragged out of a School Board meeting for protesting that the Board had lied about the sexual assault of his daughter in a school bathroom by a trans identified male student. The student was later convicted of that assault, and a later one at the next school he was sent to.

       The Republican candidate made a lot of noise about it, as did the right wing Press.

       https://www2.cbn.com/news/us/va-judge-finds-trans-teen-guilty-sexual-assault-loudoun-county-high-school-girls-bathroom?fbclid=IwAR2lUG5PVFm2AbqGhkIJykK1_RZb33NNOnASw0mZ5hC7RyMCwKSJthcTF1I
       • weka 3.3.1.1

         15 June 2023 at 1:15 pm

         liberals don't want to talk about those assaults though. Only some sexual assaults are deemed worthy of consideration. They're literally divvying up which rapists are ok. Nothing to do with the women affected.

         And yep, of course conservatives, centrists and quite a few lefties are going to react to that.
     • tWiggle 3.3.2

       15 June 2023 at 5:29 pm

       Autogynephilia is an antitrans hate word
       coined 40 years ago by a researcher whose current twitter feed is pretty gross. His 40 yo theory that transwomen become so by uncontrollable fetishisation of the female body has been elegantly proved to be wrong. The term does have a current narrow meaning. How do I know? I read his paper and downstream research.
   • Shanreagh 3.4

     15 June 2023 at 1:19 pm

     Good grief…..that's what you get when you put into legislation some thing that has got no popular support or need, fail to publicise it, then meet any genuine submitters with the most profound rudeness from within the Select Committee, take SUFW to court ot try to stop them having a meeting by calling them a hate group etc etc. Multiply this a 100 times around the world to sell this ideology largely through stealth and outpouring of money by the merchants of sale of drugs & ideology……

     Only after all of that above when the women who may be affected finally become aware of the rights they may have lost, and the likes of PP and Sal Grover come along does your 'story' start tWiggle.
   • Stuart Munro 3.5

     15 June 2023 at 3:25 pm

     Now explain to us how your pet thug got diversion.

     [Please tone down the level of contempt & aggression, thanks. We can have robust debate without it – Incognito]
     • Incognito 3.5.1

       15 June 2023 at 3:39 pm

       Mod note
       • Stuart Munro 3.5.1.1

         15 June 2023 at 5:05 pm

         I'm fairly certain that debate won't happen – a new entitled autocratic "nobility" have decided the issue is none of our business, and events have proven they are perfectly happy to resort to violence over it.

         Our government is in cahoots with them, having ridden roughshod over the greatest number of submissions ever made to an NZ select committee to demonstrate unequivocally that they are accountable to no-one.

         And I'm afraid that thuggery is the most generous interpretation applicable to a twenty-year old man breaking an elderly woman's skull to shut her up. The police have a lot of explaining to do.

         As does tWiggle – who asserted that we should wait for the outcome of the legal proceedings. Well, the results are not edifying.

         We are nursing a generation of vipers. Our Police have forgotten their duty. And the government is away with the fairies.
         • weka 3.5.1.1.1

           15 June 2023 at 5:21 pm

           Incognito will do the moderation on this, but I will explain as well. It's nothing to do with the politics or issues in the world. It's to do with your behaviour on TS today.

           You seem to think you can be aggressive to someone who you disagree with. You can't. It's really that simple. I'm saying this in part because I want people to see that moderation here isn't partisan on this particular issue. I disagree with tWiggle, but you cannot treat them on TS like you did.

           tWiggle isn't responsible for the man who assaulted the elderly woman in Albert Park, anymore than GCFs are responsible for men who attack trans women. It's a bullshit argument on both sides. But here on TS, it's anti social as well. When you do short comments like that that tie a commenter to someone else's violence it's a form of flaming and it's nasty.

           I'm pretty sure you've been pulled up on this kind of thing before, so I'm asking you to stop because if you keep doing that kind of behaviour you will get banned. If you don't understand what the issue is here, please ask either of the main mods.

           I'm fairly certain that debate won't happen – a new entitled autocratic "nobility" have decided the issue is none of our business, and events have proven they are perfectly happy to resort to violence over it.

           All the more reason to maintain the TS robust debate ethic where we argue the politics strongly sans personal attacks.
         • Incognito 3.5.1.1.2

           15 June 2023 at 7:40 pm

           I concur with weka.

           Indeed, tWiggle cannot be held responsible for those actions of violence nor for the Government, Select Committees, NZ Police, or the outcomes of legal proceedings – you have quite a list there. By creating this imaginary link, you effectively try to make her guilty by association.

           Unfortunately, you’re not the only one who behaves this way and it has a negative effect on the discourse here on TS.

           I know it can be hard, especially with controversial topics, to separate and disentangle the commenter from their comment(s) and address the contents of their comments in a civil, constructive, and respectful manner. If we cannot do this then we might as well terminate TS, all join SM (or TDB) and yell and blame each other for all societal ills, and what have you.

           I don’t believe you no longer believe in healthy debate, so please put your best foot forward or simply take a detour and scroll past if/when you have nothing constructive to add. I don’t think that’s asking too much, is it?
           • Stuart Munro 3.5.1.1.2.1

             16 June 2023 at 8:18 pm

             The matters are complex, but holding a position in a debate may require one to defend one's position. tWiggle has been supportive of the person who received diversion up until now. This is inconsistent with an ethical argument that contemporary trans activism deserves support because of victimization, as events have shown that they are aggressors.

             tWiggle chooses not to acknowledge that he or she has forfeited the moral high ground. Successful progressive activism is usually careful to distance itself from violence. Trans activism has evidently chosen a different path. Shaming them for such a position is entirely proper.

             [I really didn’t expect this needing any more litigation, but apparently you found a piece of rope 🙁

             tWiggle has been supportive of the person who received diversion up until now.

             Link & verbatim quote required as evidence for your accusation.

             tWiggle chooses not to acknowledge that he or she has forfeited the moral high ground.

             Nobody here is required to answer any question from another commenter – this is not a Court of Justice. Nobody in their right mind should respond to pig-fucker tactics, as Lprent calls it. tWiggle was wise enough not to take the bait and I’d already modded you 14 min after your comment had appeared and nipped it in the bud.

             Comply with this Mod note or retract everything and apologise to tWiggle – Incognito]
             • Incognito …

               16 June 2023 at 10:03 pm

               Mod note
               • Stuart Munro …

                 17 June 2023 at 5:40 am

                 Sorry Incog – I have principles – I'll take a year off or whatever while you defend the indefensible.

                 [I’m sorry too to read your antagonistic response, but I have to uphold the rules & principles of the site.

                 I was going to give you a medium-short ban for your attack on another commenter, also because you have form with this. I think it would have been easy enough to link & quote to the alleged offending comment by the other commenter if indeed it exists.

                 However, by adding those last words you implied that I had sided with the other commenter. This is a stupid doubling-down on a baseless and unproven accusation and dragging a Mod through the mud too.

                 If you change your mind on the latter aspect of your comment I’d consider halving your ban – I can read your comments in the Trash folder after you’ve been banned – the systems dumps them there fully automatically.

                 For now, take two months off – Incognito]
                 • Incognito …

                   17 June 2023 at 3:32 pm

                   Mod note
     • Shanreagh 3.5.2

       15 June 2023 at 4:23 pm

       Well Stuart not answering your question but I am pondering this…..the Police refused to police, for breaches of the peace, the gathering as everyone was expecting they would, and has happened at protests since Adam was a cowboy.

       So they made a choice not to police. Then being confronted with something that could not be ignored they were more or less forced to act to charge a person. According to what I recall on Twitter the police did not actually do the work to identify this person. It was done by a group of citizens and I think Leo Molloy was one.

       So having to deal with an issue they did not want to police in the first place, then having the protestor identified by the work of others they then have given diversion. Diversion is not classed as a punishment and is not subject to appeal, as I understand.

       https://communitylaw.org.nz/community-law-manual/chapter-33-the-criminal-courts/ways-to-stay-out-of-court-diversion-and-restorative-justice/

       From the link above

       'Diversion usually won’t be offered for the following types of offending:

       …

       • other violent offences'

       As this was the most serious of the two cases, the other the sauce tipping incident I wonder if the Police are getting out the wet bus ticket for this one also.

       On viewing the distinct lack of policing at the time I wondered if the word had gone down somehow from above, it would not have been done in any traceable manner as that would breach the (so-called) independence of the police.

       So with the whole incident being an example of the Thugs/Hecklers veto we now the individual thuggish behaviour being excused as well.

       I wonder when the Police will take their diversion roadshow to South Auckland where there are families whose sons also commited a one off incident and who will forever face the consequences in job applications and travel? I'm picking never…..

       /Intense sarc
       • Incognito 3.5.2.1

         15 June 2023 at 5:12 pm

         Well Stuart not answering your question […]

         What question?

         You realise that SM wasn’t addressing you, yes?
         • Shanreagh 3.5.2.1.1

           15 June 2023 at 6:43 pm

           What question?

           How the pet thug got diversion* and I specifically said I was not answering it…..as it was addressed further up the page to tWiggle, I think, who has not answered.

           I seem to recall that we have been over these,

           • don't answer others posts
           • no requirement to answer the queries of others

           in the Robert G process and, for the first, several times before that.

           I don't think we can expect only the person whose comment is being responded to to answer the query. Indeed by only allowing one person to answer one person we would hold up the free flow.

           I do not want to traverse the RG issue but you did advise that people were not obliged to answer queries.

           I had a view on the thug person and I wanted to express it.

           I see tWiggle has exercised their ability not to answer.

           • I have a fairly good set of ideas about how/why this person got diversion:

             high powered lawyers, wealthy family, knowledge of the system, pedastal-puttting of those going to Uni who might be in either the law, med or commerce streams and who might have a reasonable presumption of travelling, or of having to meet good character requirements for post Uni registration……'Just a young person who did not know what he was doing'…..There are other reasons but privilege is a reason this person has got diversion, and stereotyping is the reason that his age peers in South Auckland do not have it offered to them.

           Stereotyping is probably why an elderly woman won't get to see justice:

           • silly issue she was going to see PP about ie rights of women is a silly issue
           • silly woman anyway…she deserved to have people shouting and assaulting her as she went to Albert Park on a silly issue (similar to when she/her peers were 50 years younger and blamed for wearing clothes, any clothes, and walking at night and being assaulted
           • Karen a combo of ageism and sexism
           • PM has/had uttered against PP
           • Shaneel Lal has/had uttered for the ambush by noise of people attending PP
           • ageism
           • Incognito 3.5.2.1.1.1

             15 June 2023 at 8:22 pm

             I see a number of issues with your comment.

             Firstly, there was no question as such; it was an instruction, an imperative, and a rather problematic and rude one at that. I moderated it yet you completely ignored this and decided to pour more fuel into the flames anyway.

             You said that you were not answering it, yet that’s exactly what you’re doing here, and rather poorly, may I add (see below). You’re not facilitating ‘the free flow’, you’re diverting away to your own preferred narrative aka block & bridge (https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/491995/what-chris-hipkins-says-when-he-wants-to-change-the-subject).

             Your references to the other commenters, who are and have been on the receiving end, are misplaced & misguided.

             You mention some previous advice and then continue to ignore and even litigate this. Go figure!

             The second half of your comment is biased, highly speculative, and merely another reiteration and load of your bilious opinions that add no particular insights nor anything constructive or respectful to the conversation.

             If you have views that you want to express here then start a new thread without hijacking one that’s already going up in flames of fury (from another commenter).

             This conversation is over and I don’t want to waste more time on it!
     • tWiggle 3.5.3

       15 June 2023 at 5:56 pm

       This morning I posted two fairly clear examples of news stories, reported factually, in a balanced way, of how transphobic messaging has permeated US and Canada culture (and anectodally NZ culture) to directly affect innocent children. I appear to be under attack about unrelated issues from at least four people because of that post.

       The argument seems distill down to 'trans people are responsible because they started it'. Really? Is that even an argument? That completely sidesteps my main point, that transphobic 'free speech' has serious real world consequences, mostly for innocent bystanders.

       Thanks for stepping in, Incognito.
       • Shanreagh 3.5.3.1

         15 June 2023 at 6:56 pm

         Quick question:

         You mention 'transphobic free speech'.

         Does this include speech about the rights of women

         • to safe spaces, eg prisons, hospital wards
         • to play sport against peers

         I ask as I have seen many responses saying 'thats transphobic' because someone had a different view or wanted to explore how the rights of women can be protected or wanted to be sure that children were protected.

         I would have thought these are not transphobic but evidence of a different viewpoint or concern for the rights of others.

         To be honest I don't think I have read actual transphobic speech on the Twitter or blogs or columns I read….perhaps we're too good mannered? I've read unmentionable stuff/name calling on the links that Weka has provided a couple of times but that is transpeople name calling others.
   • Molly 3.6

     15 June 2023 at 4:14 pm

     These are your examples of "The inevitable end product of stoking anti trans ideas":

     Two fairly mild events from the US? (I only mention the US, because you often seem quite preoccupied on location.)

     1. A non-recorded, incident of a badly behaved parent at an athletics meet? (I did competitive club athletics from 4 years of age to my early teens, then went back for volunteer work in my twenties. This was a common occurrence in competitions.) This strangely ignores the many emerging stories of women and girls leaving their sports codes because of the intrusion of men, and the distress and direct harm caused to them.

     2. Children being children providing their own version of pronouns – "“USA are my pronouns,”?

     Do you really blame Kellie Jay Keen (Posie Parker) for these disconnected incidents?

     Is she also responsible for the death threats sent in the last couple of days to female MP's in the UK talking about ensuring that sex in the Equalities Act is confirmed as sex NOT gender identity?

     Let's see, shall we?

     https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1668941085278720000?s=20
     • Molly 3.6.1

       15 June 2023 at 4:50 pm

       Link to a woman cyclist's retirement speech:

       https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11895323/Heartbreaking-words-female-cyclist-quit-sport-constant-beatings-trans-competitors.html
   • Corey 3.7

     15 June 2023 at 5:30 pm

     Yeah na. As a gay man, y'all don't speak for me.

     LGBT+ acceptance has been trending downwards for the first time in history, for consecutive years now and it's because of radical gender ideology not homophobia.

     Traditionally LGBT+ allies and many in the LGBT+ itself are really, really uncomfortable with the radicals and their changes to sexuality and sex.

     I've seen more homophobia from the radical trans brigade than I've ever seen from the hard right or the god squad, and unlike the hard right and God squad, the radial gender brigade have the support of media, academia and major political parties.

     We've reached a place where despite an onslaught on women's reproductive rights, left wing political leaders won't say the word woman, healthcare providers (apparently too lazy too look a patients notes) call women "birthing parents" "bleeders" "gestational parents" "uterus havers"

     As for sexuality, Jesus Christ, out attractions are not just bigoted, we're not same sex attracted anymore we're same gendered, that's why gay men and lesbians are increasingly calling themselves "homosexual", and very quietly, when noones looking most gay and lesbian cis men and women are hurt, upset,angry and increasingly uncomfortable with being attached to a radical group with opposite goals to us, but afraid to say it publicly because we what happens to others who do.

     If I was a young person, in a generation with based on test scores, mass illiteracy, I'd be smashing those signs down too and I'd be demanding the teachers teach us how to f***ing read, write and count instead of giving us constant positive vibes and affirmation.

     I'm surprised these kids know what a pronoun is!

     How can you have Pride month in school when kids cant spell pride or month.
     • Visubversa 3.7.1

       15 June 2023 at 5:58 pm

       Bravo. Lots of older lesbians are at the forefront of this resistance because we know what a woman is – and what one is not. We will not be force teamed with a bunch of straight people telling us to relearn our sexuality.

       But gender ideology is everywhere, and people are forced to give it lip service if they want any public $$$ for their organisations, or to keep their jobs. People are required to signal their fealty to the belief by using the right language, to the point where it is almost instinctive.

       It is enforced with violence and intimidation.
     • tWiggle 3.7.2

       15 June 2023 at 6:03 pm

       If you read the article, the display was produced by students in the local LGBTQ support group, not teachers. I would expect that they put this material together in their out of class time, like any other club, eg, Jewish students club might.
4. PsyclingLeft.Always 4

   15 June 2023 at 9:08 am

   Ben Roberts-Smith is expected to fly into Australia as soon as Wednesday night, where he will face intense scrutiny, after being spotted at a New Zealand airport.

   The former SAS corporal was seen in the holiday getaway town of Queenstown on Wednesday afternoon, captured alongside his girlfriend Sarah Matulin checking into a business class flight.

   Roberts-Smith was spotted in Wanaka in recent days. A witness who testified in support of the former Seven Network executive in the defamation trial owns a property near the town.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300905821/ben-robertssmith-spotted-checking-into-flight-in-queenstown

   Well…evidently somebody likes this POS. But really….a VC hero? Just a fkn scumbag.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/300895190/ben-robertssmith-case-former-australian-sas-soldier-committed-war-crimes?rm=a

   IMO i rate the whistleblowers in the SAS..who spoke up..and refused to be part of the torture and murder this slime enabled. SAS..not SS.
   • observer 4.1

     15 June 2023 at 11:14 am

     A simple test: here's a story about a gang member in NZ …

     He had committed murder … by pressuring a newly deployed and inexperienced [member] to execute an elderly, unarmed [person] in order to “blood the rookie”.

     He committed murder by machine-gunning a man with a prosthetic leg, and then took the leg [home] and encouraged his fellow gang members to use it as a novelty drinking vessel.

     Outrage and condemnation everywhere, and a very long jail sentence. Deservedly so, I think we can agree.

     But probably not a medal.
5. tWiggle 5

   15 June 2023 at 10:32 am

   Caught in a trap of his own devising. Roberts-Smith tried to scare the journalists involved into backing down with the threat of a ruinous defamation case. Instead, a parade of witnesses convincingly confirmed most of the well-researched allegations of the press.

   But a bit small-minded to stop him having a holiday. Nothing to do with NZ.
   • PsyclingLeft.Always 5.1

     15 June 2023 at 10:39 am

     But a bit small-minded to stop him having a holiday.

     Are you…. serious? Maybe actually read the links….
     • tWiggle 5.1.1

       15 June 2023 at 6:07 pm

       Have been reading about the case for months, thanks. Just making the point that it's an Aussie issue, he's not our problem. I'm sure he's a pos too, but I believe even a pos has a right to a peaceful holiday in a country where his actions have zero relevance.
       • PsyclingLeft.Always 5.1.1.1

         17 June 2023 at 9:25 am

         but I believe even a pos has a right to a peaceful holiday in a country where his actions have zero relevance.

         Good to see where you are on this. I'll keep that in mind…..
   • UncookedSelachimorpha 5.2

     15 June 2023 at 12:06 pm

     The allegations are extremely serious (the war crimes of civilian murder) and similar civilian crimes would get you barred.
     • tWiggle 5.2.1

       15 June 2023 at 6:24 pm

       A civil defamation case is not a court-martial or a criminal case. As I understand it, there was a review in 2020 by the Australian Defense Force of war-crimes by SAS units in Afghanistan, which is when RS was first named in the media.

       That review didn't seem to have any consequences for RS, but he took offence at being named, hence the defamation case.

       As neither the Defense Force nor the government sanctioned him as a result of that report, it is likely there will only be further consequences for RS, pos (as became very evident in the trial), in the court of public opinion. He has lost money from cancelled appearances, and costs awarded from his trial could be as high as $23mi.
       • UncookedSelachimorpha 5.2.1.1

         16 June 2023 at 1:09 pm

         "A civil defamation case is not a court-martial or a criminal case."

         True. I expect the decision to grant an entry visa into NZ would rely on civil standards of evidence (balance of probability), not criminal.
6. joe90 6

   15 June 2023 at 12:22 pm

   All boats will rise.

   /

   Paul Johnson
   @PJTheEconomist
   Staggering statistics. Real average weekly earnings are same today as in November 2005.

   A completely unprecedented period with no earnings growth. Hard to compare but likely this has not happened over any comparable period since Napoleonic wars.

   Tom Clark
   @prospect_clark
   Long view on today's labour market stats is price-adjusted average pay is down £35/wk since Feb 2008

   A drop from £532 to £497 over 182 months' of data

   Few would have guessed possible (without a revolution!) — except those who knew the US horror story

   https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/datasets/x09realaverageweeklyearningsusingconsumerpriceinflationseasonallyadjusted

   https://twitter.com/PJTheEconomist/status/1668634104517242883
7. SPC 7

   15 June 2023 at 2:00 pm

   After months of National claiming local government spending is the cause of our inflation (when it is worldwide), Callum Purves of the Taxpayer Union now claims it is causing our recession (now we have one with a second negative quarter, albeit only 0.1.)

   Why should anyone takes these buffoons seriously?

   They want smaller government and more of the economic activity in the private sector (including wealth acquisition by asset purchase), but their misdiagnosis of cause end effect is in the territory of those who blame earthquakes on government social policy.
8. observer 8

   15 June 2023 at 2:33 pm

   Today we have yet another example of National saying very different things to different audiences. While Luxon panders to those who grumble about the uppity Mowrees, a National party candidate is just fine with "co-governance":

   https://thespinoff.co.nz/live-updates/15-06-2023/national-often-misunderstood-on-co-governance-says-tamaki-makaurau-candidate

   If we do end up with a National/ACT government, it is inevitable that there will be a major internal row, both within National and between the two right-wing parties. Sadly, few commentators can be bothered to look beyond the horse race and actually consider what happens after the election.

   There will be more popcorn days and nights than for any government since the Shipley/Peters bloodbath in 1997-98.
9. Stuart Munro 9

   15 June 2023 at 3:36 pm

   Last year, the Government introduced the Natural and Built Environment Bill to replace the Resource Management Act.

   The Bill creates a new framework for how New Zealand manages its natural environment including freshwater, bio-diversity and resources.

   Fish & Game is extremely concerned about this Bill and its implications for the sustainable management of our natural environment and the future of game bird hunting and freshwater fishing.
   …
   The Bill also removes the habitat protection of trout and salmon, which has long been safeguarded by the Resource Management Act.

   This will fundamentally strip Fish & Game’s ability to carry out our statutory duty to provide for the interests of anglers and hunters, and to ensure freshwater habitats, including wetlands, are healthy and support trout, salmon and game bird populations.

   As one of the only remaining independent environmental voices, Fish and Game has stepped into the void created by Forest & Bird swallowing the 1080 Kool-Aid. No good deed goes unpunished, and the government will stamp out dissent by defunding their critics instead of addressing their concerns – shameless autocrats.
   • Phillip ure 9.1

     15 June 2023 at 3:47 pm

     Is the tagline of fish and game 'we kill animals for fun'..?

     If not it should be…
   • Graeme 9.2

     15 June 2023 at 8:05 pm

     Fish and Game are copping it from both sides of the political spectrum.

     Forest and Bird aren't too keen on them because F&G are all about protecting introduced predators (trout and salmon) and introduced birds that displace native species.

     The agricultural lobby hate F&G's guts because they object to every irrigation consent and have a well funded and professional organisation to do that. In the recent Lindis hearing the farmers went full F&B, arguing that F&G were protecting introduced predators, and harming, not protecting the environment. The judge agreed and pretty much ignored F&G's arguments, so the Lindis continued to get trashed and F&G got no environmental gain for their efforts.

     F&G did sfa about preventing the arrival and spread of didimo when it was well identified as a potential threat to our freshwater environment after wreaking havoc in North and South America. It was beyond sad when it turned up in a river frequented by overseas anglers, and then got spread throughout the country. All by F&G members.

     F&G got grandfathered into the RMA, and Conservation Act before, to get rid of the old Acclimatiastion Societies, and really their time is well in the past. Freshwater fisheries should be managed the same as saltwater, (but the ideal would be a bit of both current regimes) and come under a government department.

     Politically F&G don't seem to have many friends, Labour don't want to know them, National and ACT have to be careful of upsetting farmers, which leaves F&G with Sue Grey's lot.

     Can't see this ending well for F&G, it's all their own work.
     • Stuart Munro 9.2.1

       16 June 2023 at 8:31 pm

       Labour should bear in mind that F&G have a paid up membership that dwarfs both major parties.

       The management of our saltwater fisheries essentially amounts to chronicling their demise – not a good model for anything.

       If they munt it, as it seems they would love to do, it will make appreciable holes in both domestic and foreign tourism – one of the only industries to survive the neoliberal putsch of the 80s.
       • Graeme 9.2.1.1

         16 June 2023 at 9:02 pm

         Most of that 'paid up membership' would rather they didn't have to fork out $100+ just for the privilege of going out for few cast occasionally in the vain hope of actually catching a fish. We don't pay to be members of F&G, we pay so we can go fishing and not end up in court. F&G seem to put more effort into checking you've paid your licence than doing anything to enhance the fishery.

         DOC administer the Taupo fishery and do a pretty good job, would probably be more efficient if DOC took on the rest of the country as well, since most of the activity, and nearly all the high value stuff, occurs within DOC estate anyway.

         F&G are an anachronism, a hangover from the old acclimatisation societies and should be put to rest along with the colonial concept of acclimatisation.
10. Phillip ure 10

    15 June 2023 at 3:45 pm

    Up until now the hate-primed policies/ideas/beliefs of the raving loons in act..have pretty much had no scrutiny from the media…

    It's about/past time that media got off their arses…and did what they are meant to do..

    Shine some light in that dark corner..

    And show to the voters what an act-nat government would mean/do..
11. aj 11

    15 June 2023 at 4:33 pm

    The radio station upset with story manipulation doesn't have a problem with story manipulation.

    As Hamish Keith points out in the comments: "That Radio New Zealand can do this on the eve of an inquiry into media manipulation is beyond belief"

    https://twitter.com/SachaDylan/status/1669136184529031168
    • Belladonna 11.1

      15 June 2023 at 5:05 pm

      Aside from the headline (do they have sub-editors any more?) – the story itself seems relatively well-balanced. Pointing out that all 3 major leaders (Labour past/present & National) all do this – and that Luxon does it more than the others (even the quoted interview at the bottom, showing the polly using the technique, is Luxon ).

      Although it's a bit of fluff, rather than hard-hitting political commentary. Was anyone in any doubt that our political leaders have extensive media training in how to deliver their message and deflect any unwanted questions?

      If the only issue is the headline – then this is pretty much a known issue for every media outlet in NZ – where the headline doesn't reflect the story, or is actively misleading.
      • observer 11.1.1

        15 June 2023 at 5:46 pm

        It's neither surprising nor new that politicians do what they do. Much more concerning is the lack of skill (or will) of the interviewers.

        If the non-answer is "look, let me make it clear" followed by meaningless non-clarity, the interviewer should calmly say "I'll ask the question again", and do just that. No need to get in an argument, just ask until it's answered.

        Jeremy Paxman once asked the same question 12 times to UK Tory Michael Howard (in 1997 if anyone wants the YouTube clip, all on Google).

        With few exceptions, interviewers in the NZ media have maybe one more try and simply move on to their next prepared question. I suspect page one of "Media Training" says "They will soon give up so just waffle and wait".

        Luxon would not survive a real interview.
        • Incognito 11.1.1.1

          15 June 2023 at 6:13 pm

          Luxon would not survive a real interview.

          QFT and that interview with Jack Tame is QED
          • alwyn 11.1.1.1.1

            15 June 2023 at 6:54 pm

            Was he as bad as Hipkins seems to be when talking to Mike Hosking?
      • aj 11.1.2

        15 June 2023 at 5:54 pm

        It's the headline that people take in. And it does not reflect accurately the result of the study.
        • Belladonna 11.1.2.1

          15 June 2023 at 6:07 pm

          Oh, I'm not excusing the misleading headline – just pointing out that it's pretty common practice to have a 'shock' headline which doesn't accurately reflect the story. And is done by every main media outlet.

          Here's a Suff example from today

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/300903897/hastings-councils-increased-development-fees-will-see-developers-thrown-under-the-bus

          And a Herald one

          https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/fieldays-act-party-differing-from-nationals-flip-flopping-in-hunt-for-rural-vote/THJEGGPHYFH5LAU2O5P5FVLOSU/

          Both have headlines which are arguably misleading when reading the articles in question.
          • aj 11.1.2.1.1

            15 June 2023 at 6:35 pm

            Both have headlines which are arguably misleading when reading the articles in question.

            Yes. Some are arguable, some are plain and simple misleading. Read only that headline and you won't find out the facts. It's a form of propaganda.
12. Adrian Thornton 12

    15 June 2023 at 6:18 pm
    • Incognito 12.1

      15 June 2023 at 7:13 pm

      What is this about and why should we click on the link?

      What is the political point you want to make and discuss here?

      Please make a genuine effort to initiate, stimulate, and encourage a real conversation with others on this forum.

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