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Open mike 15/08/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 15th, 2020 - 379 comments
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379 comments on “Open mike 15/08/2020 ”

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  1. Andre 1
    15 August 2020 at 6:20 am

    More bizarrity emanating from La Cage aux Fuckups housing the leaders of Doltistan: Pence apparently thinks "throwing red meat to the base" is an actual thing, not just a metaphor.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/mike-pence-kamala-harris-meat_n_5f3614dbc5b69fa9e2f938fc

    • Sabine 1.1
      15 August 2020 at 7:49 am

      smoke and mirrors.

    • joe90 1.2
      15 August 2020 at 11:38 am

      Will no one think of the cows..

  2. ScottGN 2
    15 August 2020 at 7:16 am

    mmm…Anybody else get the post on social media that purports to explain the link between the Auckland cluster and the border? A lot of race based assumptions and no evidence. Pretty horrible really.

  3. Ad 3
    15 August 2020 at 7:33 am

    This second outbreak and its timing is terrible for every reason except it is also a political gift as pure and clear as a snowflake landing on your tongue.

    • ScottGN 3.1
      15 August 2020 at 9:31 am

      Gonna be a big pile on by the ‘make Ardern go away’ crowd though.
      Ryan Bridge on Newsroom this morning is in full Ayn Randian flight.

      • Muttonbird 3.1.1
        15 August 2020 at 9:56 am

        Closet racists like Bridge will be out in force now that a particular group of people (brown) are involved.

      • Gabby 3.1.2
        15 August 2020 at 10:47 am

        Is he related to 'Merv'?

      • SPC 3.1.3
        15 August 2020 at 11:03 am

        Lindsay Perigo syndrome. I'm white believe in capitalism and freedom – give me my equality and I'm on your white and middle class entitlted ones team.

        • sumsuch 3.1.3.1
          15 August 2020 at 11:25 pm

          Daer Linsay, the great refusenik to 'News for Children' ,and he thought it wasn't Right enough! Geeeeze.

    • sumsuch 3.2
      15 August 2020 at 11:20 pm

      Images, woe, woe, woe.

  4. Reality 4
    15 August 2020 at 8:14 am

    The idea of including National in decision making either over the election date or Covid, I most certainly hope does not happen. I would not trust National for one second to be upfront and to work for NZ. They could not help themselves being devious and using the situation entirely to suit themselves.

    • Robert Guyton 4.1
      15 August 2020 at 8:18 am

      Or ACT.

      "We need to be more like Taiwan who managed to manage to minimise the impact of Covid-19 and manage their economy simultaneously,” Seymour said."

      • Stunned Mullet 4.1.1
        15 August 2020 at 9:35 am

        Apart from the grammar what's wrong with that statement Robert ?

        • Andre 4.1.1.1
          15 August 2020 at 9:44 am

          One big difference is Taiwan seems to have far fewer anti-social fuckwits that insist they have the right to do whatever they want and everyone else can get fucked. (That's a group that appear way over-represented among ACT supporters, BTW). So better Taiwanese understanding of and compliance with simple public health measures is likely to produce good results with less compulsion than is needed here.

          • Hanswurst 4.1.1.1.1
            15 August 2020 at 10:24 am

            Bang on. A number of people I know here in Germany who hail from either Korea or Taiwan have been flabbergasted at the attituds of people here, who say, "Fuck it, I need a holiday after all this bullshit, so I'm hopping on a plane to Portugal/Greece/wherever". Several of them have told me that some of their own friends, recently arrived in Germany, are seriously reconsidering their decision to move here because of that attitude (although I don't personally know anyone who has said that). There is very little understanding of that attitude that places exercising the right to spend your own money on whatever damn activities you please ahead of collective responsibility – which, funnily enough, is exactly the ethos of ACT.

            • Sacha 4.1.1.1.1.1
              15 August 2020 at 11:52 am

              Interesting. Not enough appreciation in NZ of how much our willingness to obey government directives has helped with Covid.

            • Treetop 4.1.1.1.1.2
              15 August 2020 at 12:35 pm

              Conflicting attitudes is a growing issue.

            • Sabine 4.1.1.1.1.3
              15 August 2020 at 1:36 pm

              yep, and the idiots that went on a demo the other day in Berlin. lol.

              but then again i would say these are in the minority as they are here in NZ.

              since the news this week, i have not have had any issues with people wanting to come in the shop – which i only allow if properly masked. Not one.

              People are pretty good about it. So maybe a bit more faith in the public?

          • Tricledrown 4.1.1.1.2
            15 August 2020 at 2:26 pm

            Taiwan had an outbreak of the deadly sars virus early 2000's and found out what works having well funded health system with excess capability and being prepared is why Taiwan has had good results.

            New Zealands health system has bee run down for years.

            The Ministry of Health is just an advisory organization it has been gutted.

            She's act independently in a wasteful disorganized manner with antiquated computer systems no money for emergencies no capability to cope with a major outbreak.very few ICU beds and ventilators.

            Continual tax cuts funding come from cutting govt health spending.

            • Grafton Gully 4.1.1.1.2.1
              15 August 2020 at 6:12 pm

              The statement that "New Zealand's health system has been run down for years." is incorrect when compared to the OECD average.

              "Health spending in New Zealand (excluding investment expenditure in the health sector) was 9.5% of GDP in 2013 (Figure 2), slightly above the OECD average of 8.9%. This has increased by 2 percentage points since 2000, as health spending outpaced economic growth in the 2000s."

              https://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/Country-Note-NEW%20ZEALAND-OECD-Health-Statistics-2015.pdf

              Private health care is growing, in part because the DHB services are less accessible, despite more than adequate funding if you accept the OECD average as the yardstick.

              "On top of additional healthcare demand expected from demographic changes, there has been a noticeable increase in demand for insurance-funded healthcare treatment in the past year as a result of the disruption in the public health sector and the adverse impact on people’s ability to access healthcare through their DHB."

              https://8d5ef558-ae1a-42c1-93af-345704802d5e.filesusr.com/ugd/606d2f_2e2180a84b8242daae5c9213d5a6054e.pdf

              • Tricledrown …
                15 August 2020 at 10:18 pm

                Grafton Gully as you point out the OECD figures include private insurance payments cosmetic surgery ACC funding etc.

                Govt health.spending is a different set of figures

        • Robert Guyton 4.1.1.2
          15 August 2020 at 9:46 am

          The wonky grammar's enough to sink it, Stunned Mullet, but beyond that, the deliverer is an Actoid opportunist, looking for headlines by criticising the Government's every action, putting up ideological "reckons" shouted shrilly in order to froth-up his other-wise despondent followers. The desperate squealing of a desperate man.

          • Stunned Mullet 4.1.1.2.1
            15 August 2020 at 10:22 am

            So apart from the grammar, which may be a typo on your part, your argument is I don't like the ACT party.

            • Hanswurst 4.1.1.2.1.1
              15 August 2020 at 10:31 am

              “We need to be more like Taiwan who managed to manage to minimise the impact of Covid-19 and manage their economy simultaneously,” Seymour said.

              So, apart from semi-accusing Robert of making a grammatical mistake (which isn't even a grammatical mistake), because five seconds to verify the source were beyond you, you have no argument to contribute?

              • Stunned Mullet …
                15 August 2020 at 10:52 am

                You are right, reading it again the grammar is fine.

                Now back to the original question what is wrong with Seymour's comment ?

                • Hanswurst …
                  15 August 2020 at 11:57 am

                  See my earlier comment 4.1.1.1.1 or Andre’s above it.

                • mac1 …
                  15 August 2020 at 12:03 pm

                  The grammar is crap. Taiwan is a country, a singular noun referring to a thing and should not be made to either be a person (using 'who' is wrong), or plural (which means 'their' is wrong).

                  If the noun was Taiwanese then the rest would be good.

                  • Hanswurst …
                    15 August 2020 at 5:45 pm

                    If the noun was Taiwanese then the rest would be good.

                    No, like your sentence quoted here (in which, moreover, 'was' should read 'were'), it would still be missing a comma. Regardless, neither of the mistakes to which you refer could reasonably be expected to result from typographical error, which Stunned Mullet suggested may have been an explanation for what they perceived to be poor grammar.

                    • greywarshark …
                      15 August 2020 at 8:24 pm

                      It's all diversion, If we are not coming up with answers to save our country from shallow bores why not a music link or a pome 'I wandered over hill and rime and heard stunned mullet all the time..'

            • Robert Guyton 4.1.1.2.1.2
              15 August 2020 at 11:28 am

              "I don't like the ACT Party" isn't an argument, it's a statement of fact. Plus, it's shared widely in NZ. Do you like 'em?

              • Stunned Mullet …
                15 August 2020 at 12:05 pm

                I have never voted ACT but if I lived in the electorate I would vote for Seymour as in my opinion he has been one of the most effective voices in opposition in this term of government he has also brought some useful bills before parliament whether or not you are for or against them.

                I would have the similar view if it was a Green candidate – we need this smaller parties in parliament more than ever when we have what is in my opinion the weakest ever collection of National in Labour parliamentarians in many many years.

                • Tricledrown …
                  15 August 2020 at 1:52 pm

                  Stupid Minions can't afford to live in Epsom not even Seymour can afford to.

                  He is on a govt benefit/ welfare from National.

                • anker …
                  15 August 2020 at 2:08 pm

                  Stunned Mullet, re ting ACT……..Seymour (rather ineffectively) opposed the changes to the gun laws (was so busy talking to journos outside the chamber, he missed the vote)…….His deputy has said they would cut benefits if they were in power………………If you are supportive of those things that is a little more than unfortunate.

                  • Stunned Mullet …
                    15 August 2020 at 2:10 pm

                    You may have read my comment…..but you appear to have understood none of it.

                    • anker …
                      15 August 2020 at 2:30 pm

                      Stunned Mullet, I have re-read your comment. I think what you were trying to say is that David Seymour has been competent. And therefore if in Epsom, you would give him your vote? Correct me if that is not what you meant….

                      I was just putting out there that to me his policies are repugnant. And although I didn't say it in my last comment, even if I thought he was competent, I wouldn't vote for him because of those policies……

                      Seymour looks competent, because the Nats have been truly incompetent

                • sumsuch …
                  15 August 2020 at 11:36 pm

                  ACT is the 1984 'coup'. And all the rest of the transfer of the power from the people to the rich. Not an inch will I give them.

            • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.2.1.3
              15 August 2020 at 1:17 pm

              Well, that and the fact that ACT's ideological reckons would get us all killed.

        • woodart 4.1.1.3
          15 August 2020 at 2:17 pm

          act party saying we need to be more like taiwan. love it. act selfish clowns dont exist in taiwan.

      • SPC 4.1.2
        15 August 2020 at 11:05 am

        I'm guessing Taiwan does not run its economy on cheap imported labour, foreign students, skilled migrants and tourism.

    • RedBaronCV 4.2
      15 August 2020 at 12:26 pm

      Did National include Labour in the Christchurch earthquake response? That would be a "no". They only want to share power when they are not in charge.MSM need to push back hard on this one. Let Kim loose on Gerry.

      Besides who would want to be associated with them. They leak everything they are given no matter how confidential. I still can't believe that Boag appears to face no penalty for the health data leak. In the USA she would have likely been sued into the middle of next week. Although a lesser response here would be more appropriate.

  5. Andre 5
    15 August 2020 at 8:15 am

    It's the weekend in lockdown. Must be time for watersports.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-urine-trouble_n_5f36049fc5b69fa9e2f92076

    In other news, being compared to Kamala has Marge upset enough that she needs to say something.

  6. Patricia Bremner 6
    15 August 2020 at 9:20 am

    Those threatening to march, or those who do during a Health emergency level 3 or 4 should be fined for inciting/reckless behaviour. Same for lack of a mask in enclosed spaces. imo

    The dangerous attention seeking by Destiny Church and other fringe groups has to stop.

    The second thing on my mind is the wonderful news that we recovered enough and saved or had returned enough wage and other subsidies to be able to cover this new lock down period and still have the 14 billion back up.
    Going early and strong is the obvious method.

    • Climaction 6.1
      15 August 2020 at 9:53 am

      How did you feel about the BLM protests patricia?

      • Cinny 6.1.1
        15 August 2020 at 10:17 am

        Good try at gas lighting climaction, but the BLM protests in New Zealand happened under level 1, big difference.

        • weka 6.1.1.1
          15 August 2020 at 10:36 am

          How is that gaslighting?

          • Cinny 6.1.1.1.1
            15 August 2020 at 11:07 am

            Comparing different situations with a common factor (protest march in this case) to sow seeds of self doubt.

            Destiny propaganda march in level 3 v's BLM protest in level 1

            Different level, different subject matter.

            But if I've misread and got it wrong, please let me know, text has no tone and I've gotten it wrong and misread intentions before.

            • weka 6.1.1.1.1.1
              15 August 2020 at 11:21 am

              I wouldn't call that gaslighting (which has a focus of making people question their own sanity and perceptions, and online of convincing others too).

              I agree it was a false comparison because of the Levels. But I also think the left needs to be careful to not think we can pick and choose who gets to protest. If XR decide to do an action under L3, will we object? BLM in NZ broke the rules of the level we were under at the time. It's a conversation worth having imo, about what's going to be acceptable to society during the pandemic.

              • Cinny …
                15 August 2020 at 11:51 am

                Thanks for explaining Weka, much appreciated 🙂

                  • Mika …
                    15 August 2020 at 2:29 pm

                    Just a point of correction, Auckland BLM protests occurred on 1 June, during level 2 restriction.

                    We didn't go to level 1 until 8 June.

                    I am generally in full support of the right to protest, but we were just really lucky not to have had a cluster from that event.

                    • weka …
                      15 August 2020 at 2:37 pm

                      thanks, I couldn't remember. I wasn't that happy about it at the time, also for the reason that it would legitimise anti-mask etc protestors at the worst time at a later date. Not smart.

        • Climaction 6.1.1.2
          15 August 2020 at 12:16 pm

          I won’t re-litigate the excellent point made below by Weka.

          suffice to say if we allow one protest as free speech we have to allow all normally legal matches, no matter how we feel about them

          • weka 6.1.1.2.1
            15 August 2020 at 1:50 pm

            Cinny's point stands though. You compared protests under different levels, so your own point isn't that well made.

            • Climaction 6.1.1.2.1.1
              15 August 2020 at 2:39 pm

              Splitting hairs weka.

              level 3 protests aren’t that different from level 2 protests. Except that the BLM protests far exceeded the cap of 100 and it’s hard to see destiny rallying more than 100

    • Tricledrown 6.2
      15 August 2020 at 10:18 am

      They should be locked up under the terrorism laws for the duration of lockdown.

      • Sabine 6.2.1
        15 August 2020 at 1:40 pm

        last week we were arguing about having compassion for people that broke quarantine.

        how times changes.

        • Tricledrown 6.2.1.1
          15 August 2020 at 1:57 pm

          Lives are at risk in Victoria Australia the biggest cohort of infections is Doctors Nurses and healthcare workers why should ignorant selfish people put our under resourced health sector at risk.

          • Sabine 6.2.1.1.1
            15 August 2020 at 2:07 pm

            you get no argument from me.

            I think that throwing hte book at anyone breaking quarantine is the way to go.

    • Bearded Git 6.3
      15 August 2020 at 10:56 am

      The 14 billion is just a number picked out of the air by Robertson as an uncosted contingency fund. It is not in any way "free" money-it will still add to the nation's debt like all of the other Covid expenses to date.

      • Tricledrown 6.3.1
        15 August 2020 at 12:47 pm

        Lord haw haw would be proud of you.Beardid Git.

        The Canterbury earthquakes spend was more than $86 billion .

        This is a much bigger disaster just firing out a figure without any reasoning is pathetic.

        WW2 built up huge debts no one complained because it was required to fight a common enemy now we have a common enemy we need to spend enough money to keep our economy afloat .

        So far Robertson has done a good job give "Credit " where it is warranted!

        • Bearded Git 6.3.1.1
          15 August 2020 at 10:51 pm

          Tricle-I have massive respect for the way that Jacinda/Robertson/Hipkins/Clark et al have handled the Covid crisis. My comment on the $14 billion was made, as a former accountant, in a purely accounting context. It seemed a bit weird to me to tack this figure onto spending rather than simply saying that further billions would probably be needed to be spent to alleviate the Covid situation in the future.

          If the same Covid events happened in Britain I would happily vote Labour.

          (In NZ I have the option to vote for what I regard as a more progressive and climate-friendly party. Seymour's entirely unjustified attack on Labour today about the way they have handled the Covid crisis speaks volumes as to how far ACT will stoop to get votes.)

    • sumsuch 6.4
      15 August 2020 at 11:45 pm

      Fringe groups — let them chat, and respond with kindly truths. The NZers , despite the neglect of their fundamental values for many decades, will do the rest. But it grows as thin as my linen sheets when I was young, just waiting for an untrimmed toenail.

  7. Stuart Munro 7
    15 August 2020 at 9:27 am

    It's articles like this that make me think we need procedures to get dangerously ignorant garbage taken down – and review the talkback sewers whence they come.

    The team of five million is splintering and there are early signs Jacinda Ardern’s campaign that wasn’t a campaign for re-election is wobbling.

    It’s becoming abundantly clear the Prime Minister’s sworn mission of stamping Covid-19 out of New Zealand is neither sustainable nor the right thing, morally, to do.

    He's made a couple of assertions there that he ought to be required to back up. Looks like fulminating ignorance from here, and ignorance isn't entitled to publication.

    • ScottGN 7.1
      15 August 2020 at 9:34 am

      He’s pretty careful to avoid any mention of Sweden’s actual death toll so far of about 6,000 in a country with less than twice our population.

    • SPC 7.2
      15 August 2020 at 9:41 am

      Ryan Bridge is just saying he is middle class and white and most of those who will die as a result of a pro open for business policy would be poor (many not white) workers, frontline staff including medical and the old.

      It speaks to those with property who oppose CGT, estate taxes, wealth taxes and progressive taxation and the other people.

      This is a right left divide issue and the worlds right do not want us to succeed with our approach. Collective well being to them is socialism.

      The sort only connect to those of their class, being mouth pieces for business before worker/people poliitcs.

      • Stuart Munro 7.2.1
        15 August 2020 at 9:48 am

        I'd like to see him forced to retract. The sustainability and morality of an elimination strategy are well-established – it's the limp-wristed strategies he wants that have proven consistently to underperform economically, and the morality follows along – there is neither utilitarian nor individual advantage in giving the virus free rein.

        • Ed 7.2.1.1
          15 August 2020 at 9:57 am

          Totally agree.

        • SPC 7.2.1.2
          15 August 2020 at 9:58 am

          Both his and the NZME radio networks are right wing shills – they are business advertising and middle class National voter/consumer with property ownership based. And Newshub/TV3 and the Herald just echo these voices on-line and in print.

          Collectively one can call them our Fox News. They won't retract, its a bubble of entitlement.

          But it is a bit of a worry that these same voices then get extra amplification at places such as Newsroom.

          • RedBaronCV 7.2.1.2.1
            15 August 2020 at 12:19 pm

            Newsroom generally has some good journalists with good reputations. Pity Ryan has insinuated himself onto there.

            He certainly ignores anything that does not support his world view. Given the speed with which Air NZ flights emptied as people stayed home or bolted home a large part of the country seems to have put itself into as close as level 4 as they can get. This family is certainly "bubbling". Be interesting too see if the various traffic stats etc back this up. But it does support the idea that "lockdown" will happen with or without too much direction.

            The rant also obscures points he justifiably could make. Stuff had an article a few days ago about shifting quarantine into a permanent base away from Auckland. That has some merit I think. A hutch, a run, let people cook and clean for themselves (grocery delivery or get takeaway securely delivered if they want to order in!) in a field somewhere outside Bulls.

            https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/300081087/coronavirus-leave-auckland-alone-is-it-time-for-a-radical-rethink-of-quarantine

            • SPC 7.2.1.2.1.1
              15 August 2020 at 12:41 pm

              It's floating Nationals plan to set up a pandemic internment camp – and invite UNHR for advice about setting one up for those unable to pay for hotel quarantine.

              • Tricledrown …
                15 August 2020 at 12:53 pm

                This looks like a piss take on Helen Clark's (playing on her role at UNHCR)idea to open our borders using private contractors.

                Notice Clark,Key,Fyfe have all gone silent on opening up our borders.

                • SPC …
                  15 August 2020 at 1:12 pm

                  I meant UNHCR, Clark led the UN Development Programme.

                  I was being a little sarcastic. They might however float it as a way to stowaway foreign students and workers for the rural sector we cannot accommodate with current capacity

                  Clark did say she supported a move to a more open border, which would necessarily increase risk. We already allow essential workers in, so she was referring to economic activity – students and rural sector workers.

                  I am not so sure about students, they have the right to work here and unemployment will rise (we could I suppose take away their right to work and require them to borrow offshore to pay for their living costs).

                  • Treetop …
                    15 August 2020 at 5:33 pm

                    I saw on Aljazeera TV today that Chinese students are going through Hong Kong Airport to study in countries allowing them entry. This is to take the pressure off flights from China for students.

                    I thought this a bit odd as China would have the capacity.

                • RedBaronCV …
                  15 August 2020 at 1:37 pm

                  I'm certainly not suggesting that it be privately run , that is a disaster scenario, yep I get the point about camps – how could we ensure that any purpose built hotel facility is not seen as a camp it doesn't have to be uncomfortable – but not putting everyone into the middle of our biggest cities also must have some merit in terms of the cost of lockdowns to the community.

          • sumsuch 7.2.1.2.2
            15 August 2020 at 11:50 pm

            But they're still NZers, thank god. Only one of them of my age group doesn't have a conscience. Teeth that could blind.

        • Incognito 7.2.1.3
          15 August 2020 at 9:06 pm

          Can you point where Ryan Bridge said or advocated for “giving the virus free rein”? Thanks in advance.

    • Stunned Mullet 7.3
      15 August 2020 at 9:44 am

      It's an opinion piece.

      In my opinion your immediate response to ban/censor and deride information you disagree with is a far more insidious threat to the country.

      • Stuart Munro 7.3.1
        15 August 2020 at 9:49 am

        It's a factually incorrect opinion piece. Untruth is not protected discourse.

        • weka 7.3.1.1
          15 August 2020 at 10:44 am

          Which bits are factually incorrect?

          • Stuart Munro 7.3.1.1.1
            15 August 2020 at 11:42 am

            That the current approach is not sustainable.

            It is the best available option, the one that does the least harm to health and the economy. It is sustainable, by virtue of being less unsustainable than other options. The comparative costs of Covid policies is very much on the side of stricter handling.

            That is not the right thing to do, morally.

            The author is not explicit as to what moral grounds he has in mind – but there are strong utilitarian grounds for the current policy, as well as rights based grounds like the right of elderly or immune compromised people to live.

            and, though it is more subject to interpretation, that there are early signs Jacinda Ardern’s campaign that wasn’t a campaign for re-election is wobbling.

            This one seems to owe more to wishful thinking than evidence – as might be expected of the written version of a freeform talkback rant.

            • weka 7.3.1.1.1.1
              15 August 2020 at 12:29 pm

              it's all opinion and belief though. He believes that it's not sustainable, you do, I don't. I fully support the govt prioritising health and people over economy, but I'm under no illusions that we are going to sail through this and come out economically well the other side. We're heading into a recession that none of us have experienced (that's my *opinion).

              There are definitely problem with he wrote, but I don't think the issue is facts (didn't read the whole thing, but I trust Newsroom too). It's values. I think we are better off critiquing the right on that.

              The factual stuff can be argued out over whether the Swedish or NZ model is better, but I'm in the third camp, that we will have to transition to a regenerative model, not try and mitigate with a BAU one (which is what Labour are doing). In the meantime, the right are using all their divisive, Trumpian and Dirty Politics tools to regain power. We definitely need to address that, but trying to censor people will just radicalise more to their side.

              Not sure if you have seen this, but there are left wing women now working with the libertarians and the right over the gender critical issues, and there are the alt left who think Trump isn’t so bad. Deplatforming gender critical feminists has been one of the major drivers of the rise of those movements.

              • Stuart Munro …
                15 August 2020 at 12:35 pm

                So you've already reached to endpoint of postmodernism – that there are no truths.

                Not much worth saying – discourse ceases to be meaningful. Trump has won.

                • weka …
                  15 August 2020 at 1:40 pm

                  what on earth are you on about? If you can't tell the difference between a fact and opinion, you don't get to make informed judgements about other people's opinions. If you have something to say about my comment that is meaningful, then please say it. But thinking I'm at the endpoint of post-modernism suggests you didn't understand what I just said.

                  • Stuart Munro …
                    15 August 2020 at 2:15 pm

                    An opinion not informed by facts, or one informed by falsehoods, is not equal with one that is. We treat them as such at our peril as a society.

                    It's all opinion and belief though.

                    No, it's really not. Such a platform gives infinite license to liars.

                    • weka …
                      15 August 2020 at 2:35 pm

                      "It's all opinion and belief though."

                      That was a response to the two examples you gave me. It wasn't a comment on the article as a whole or his argument.

                      One of the things the right does is use opinion as if it were fact, and conflate the two, and it gets away with this because people react to the opinions and can't 'prove' they are wrong because they aren't facts. It's how he gets to be published in a major online NZ media.

                      What we can do is push back against the arguments, which is what I think you are trying to do. But my main objection was for the call of censoring. If he had made outright incorrect claims, then that's easy enough to call out, and Newsroom would be responsive. If he's running bullshit lines based on let them die, then that requires a different approach to combat.

                  • Stuart Munro …
                    15 August 2020 at 3:02 pm

                    Let me restate then, since you seem to have had trouble parsing what I said (presumably because you were trying to frame my comment as a call for censorship).

                    The writer is a liar.

                    stamping Covid-19 out of New Zealand is neither sustainable nor the right thing, morally, to do.

                    On the contrary, stamping Covid-19 out is the most sustainable course of action. And, it is not immoral to attempt to do so.

                    Multiple senior medical experts across the world concur on this, it is a conclusion drawn by informed physicians and the data generated by various differing approaches also supports it. It is not opinion, nor untested hypothesis, but fact.

                    The risk to the public is appreciable, and to various vulnerable minorities it is grave. The writer has no plausible grounds for the assertion that acting in such a way as to protect these groups is immoral – rather he is injecting the unsupported moral claim into his rhetoric to lend force to his lie.

                    Because of these gross and gratuitous lies, this material should not have been published by any entity pretending to be a reputable news organ.

                    And it should be taken down.

                    • weka …
                      15 August 2020 at 4:18 pm

                      "stamping Covid-19 out of New Zealand is neither sustainable"

                      Opinion.

                      "nor the right thing, morally, to do."

                      Also opinion.

                      "On the contrary, stamping Covid-19 out is the most sustainable course of action"

                      Also opinion (and as already pointed out elimination isn't sustainable, it's just our best option. That something is less of a shitshow than something else doesn't make it *sustainable*. eg dairy farmers putting less nitrates into the environment doesn't make what they are doing sustainable. But I explained all this already).

                      What he is arguing is stupid and immoral.

                      "And, it is not immoral to attempt to do so"

                      I agree, and it's also an opinion.

                      But here's what my whole argument here hinges on. You said,

                      "It's articles like this that make me think we need procedures to get dangerously ignorant garbage taken down – and review the talkback sewers whence they come."

                      If you're not talking censorship (i.e. the govt forcing this to happen) what do you actually mean? What mechanism do you propose that would compel Newsroom to remove the article?

                      (don't know why you have a problem with the word censorship, I'm in favour of censorship as a state tool, I just don't think this is a good situation to use it).

                      Bear in mind that I haven’t read the whole piece, that I responded to your comment and then subsequent examples.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      15 August 2020 at 5:01 pm

                      "stamping Covid-19 out of New Zealand is neither sustainable"

                      Opinion.

                      "nor the right thing, morally, to do."

                      Also opinion.

                      Nope. We've essentially eliminated diseases before so we know that it's possible and, because it will result in less death, it's also the morally right thing to do.

                      The problem, weka, is that you're treating all opinions as if they're valid which is, itself, BS.

                      For an opinion to be valid it has to be backed by facts which the article in question isn't. In fact, all the facts that we know go against it which not only makes it false but dangerous because there will be some people who will believe it and want to follow it.

                      And that danger that it induces is what makes it a valid target for censorship. Same reasons as inciting a riot is illegal.

              • SPC …
                15 August 2020 at 12:55 pm

                Sure the population growth (imported labour) model which placed upward pressure on housing/property values (and related economic wellbeing with high rents) is one we had to be weaned off.

                And one thing the government can do, via apprenticeships and the like is re-direct the economy towards higher productivity and sustainability – via investment in community environment.

                Business without cheap migrant labour would invest in labour replacement (higher productivity) and retraining locals – for them its about access to finance.

                Part of this is rethinking how we see issuance of money and debt. We can keep the economy up during the transition though debt free finance to government for this investment/income/business loan support. QE printed money should not be debt repaid by the next generation – to whom ffs.

                • weka …
                  15 August 2020 at 1:42 pm

                  "Business without cheap migrant labour would invest in labour replacement (higher productivity) and retraining locals – for them its about access to finance."

                  How so?

                  • SPC …
                    15 August 2020 at 1:52 pm

                    Higher productivity – per employee requires investment.

                    For example NZPO in the 000's mail sorting by smart tech not people, harvesting by machine rather than by hand, automated smart tech milking machines (cows just wander in to be be milked and the production info for each cow is made availabel to the farmer).

                    This of course requires capital, or affordable debt. Whats government debt cost, whats the cost borrowing from banks …

                    • weka …
                      15 August 2020 at 4:21 pm

                      How does "Business without cheap migrant labour would invest in labour replacement (higher productivity) and retraining locals" relate to "for them its about access to finance"?

                      Are you saying that without cheap labour they will do what gives them the best access to finance, which is to retrain locals?

                    • SPC …
                      15 August 2020 at 5:13 pm

                      No.

                      I am saying replacement of labour requires investment in machinery/tech – and those without the capital for this and or access to cheap finance resort to cheap migrant labour.

                      Either cutting of this labour supply, or providing finance to enable the investment to replace this labour would result in a more productive economy – more GDP per person and lower population pressure – ease pressure on housing supply/property values.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                15 August 2020 at 1:41 pm

                He believes that it's not sustainable

                Belief isn't something that you base policy on especially if that belief could get people killed.

                And we have the evidence showing that:

                • His belief is wrong
                • What the government doing is right and sustainable

                Given these facts then his opinion is nothing but lies.

                • weka …
                  15 August 2020 at 1:44 pm

                  Sure, I think what he wrote (what I read of it) was bullshit. But I don't believe it's bullshit because he asserted incorrect facts, and I don't believe that censoring him (which is what SM was suggesting) will do anything other than feed the altright neoliberal fire.

                  • Stuart Munro …
                    15 August 2020 at 3:09 pm

                    Censorship is a construction you are trying to put on merely not tolerating lies. They are by no means equivalent. If this F***wit were able to substantiate these claims I would not have objected.

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    15 August 2020 at 3:23 pm

                    But I don't believe it's bullshit because he asserted incorrect facts

                    Except that it is because he as such as:

                    Not until Newshub’s Michael Morrah informed the nation on Thursday night that just a third of those working the borders had been tested at all did we realise just how loose this goose had been flying.

                    That was explained two days ago.

                    Overseas, Vietnam and Australia should serve as warnings that no country can keep Covid out.

                    And yet, amazingly enough, he wants to follow the same prescription as Australia followed and which allowed such massive spreading of the virus.

                    But she must ask herself whether the health risks of perpetual lockdowns are worth the economic price.

                    The economy is the people and if they're all sick and dying then the cost to the economy will be far worse than what we're seeing now and will go on far longer. Just look to the USA where Trump said:

                    “We’ve got to open up our schools and open up our businesses,” Trump said at an evening news conference at the White House, adding that he wanted to see a college football season this fall. “Let them play,” he said.

                    While this is happening:

                    At Etowah High School in Woodstock, Ga., dozens of seniors packed together to pose side-by-side for a photo when classes began Aug. 3. Not a single smile was covered with a mask.

                    Just over a week later, the students all have been sent home and the school is shut.

                    In all, more than 900 students and staff in the Cherokee County School District had been ordered to quarantine as of Tuesday morning after 59 students and staff tested positive for the coronavirus, according to school officials. A third of those quarantined are from Etowah High School, which has had 14 confirmed cases.

                    He is spreading misinformation and that is a danger.

                    • weka …
                      15 August 2020 at 4:24 pm

                      Read the thread. When I said "But I don't believe it's bullshit because he asserted incorrect facts" I was responding to this,

                      https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-15-08-2020/#comment-1741557

                      and Stuart's immediate reply.

                      "He is spreading misinformation and that is a danger."

                      Yes. My argument with Stuart was that he thinks Newsroom should be compelled to not publish it. I think this is a mistake (although tbf, he has yet to say how).

          • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 7.3.1.1.2
            15 August 2020 at 1:25 pm

            He's incorrect by omission! He references Sweden but fails to compare NZ figures with Sweden's. For instance, deaths per million: Sweden 572, NZ 4.

            Is that the sort of figure we would find acceptable to 'revive' the economy?

            • weka 7.3.1.1.2.1
              15 August 2020 at 1:45 pm

              I'm sure he is incorrect. I asked Stuart to say which bits were factually incorrect, he said the stuff about sustainability and the stuff about morals. I don't consider those to be facts. There is plenty to critique the piece on in terms of values, politics, arguments, and logic.

              He may also be incorrect on facts, I didn’t read the whole piece.

              • Stuart Munro …
                15 August 2020 at 3:20 pm

                I don't consider those to be facts.

                Then you too are in error.

              • Stuart Munro …
                15 August 2020 at 9:55 pm

                Here is the relevant clause from the Media Council code of ethics:

                Publications should be bound at all times by accuracy, fairness and balance, and should not deliberately mislead or misinform readers by commission or omission.

                The article in question departed rather enthusiastically from this standard. There is also

                “Material facts on which an opinion is based should be accurate.”

                So, ample grounds to remove the offending article.

            • weka 7.3.1.1.2.2
              15 August 2020 at 1:47 pm

              "Is that the sort of figure we would find acceptable to 'revive' the economy?"

              That's a values argument. Personally, I don't believe NZ would find that acceptable, but there are obviously loads of countries that do, as well as a significant portion of the NZ population that do.

              • Tony Veitch (not etc.) …
                15 August 2020 at 2:58 pm

                Yes, I agree, Weka re the values part. The fact is that Sweden's figures are much worse than NZs. How we deal with that fact is a reflection of our values.

                • Incognito …
                  15 August 2020 at 3:14 pm

                  Arguably, the Swedish or Taiwanese for that matter mapped their course based on values as much as we did ours, as there was scant factual scientific information to go on during the initial stages of the pandemic outbreak. In fact, we still have to learn much about this virus. We don’t know how lucky we were.

                • weka …
                  15 August 2020 at 4:27 pm

                  we don't actually know that our way is best yet. In five years time we could be impoverished and have more deaths from that than covid would have given us. This is a tricky, highly nuanced ethical dilemma, and one that I think we have managed well. Most of us believe that our way is best, because of the short term evidence, and because of our values.

                  Sweden's death stats are shocking. I think they made the wrong decision.

                  • sumsuch …
                    16 August 2020 at 12:07 am

                    I layed an opinion on TDB about Covid. America is scared about a .1 % death rate in their not particularly controlled environment. Our decades of comfortable living, we are more scared about minor immediate discomfort than the end of said comfort if we don't do anything by 10 years. Kriste, as they say.

                    • weka …
                      16 August 2020 at 12:16 am

                      another comment where I have no idea what someone is saying. Can you please spell it out? Is the minor discomfit having covid? What happens in ten years?

                    • sumsuch …
                      18 August 2020 at 1:20 am

                      You ask me to spell it out Weka but you don't have a reply button? Rhetorical question then, but anyway, the minor discomfort is covid. And what else is there that I would be referring to in 10 years?

                      Maybe I'm a little opaque but you apparatchiks here are very clear to me.

            • anker 7.3.1.1.2.3
              15 August 2020 at 2:15 pm

              I know for myself, in a privileged position financially, that if we were in Sweden's situation, I would spend most of my time happily isolating at home……(as I have done since latest outbreak announced)……

              When we went to Level One, I went out and patronised local businesses and local tourist spots……..big time………….I am sure I am not alone. I think our elimination strategy is the best for the economy.

    • Ed 7.4
      15 August 2020 at 9:54 am

      Ryan Bridge is a host on Magic Talk radio.
      That says it all.
      Sounds and looks like the nest Mike Hosking.

      Such arrant nonsense should not get a platform on Newsroom.

      • Robert Guyton 7.4.1
        15 August 2020 at 10:58 am

        I was deeply disappointed that the word "magic" was appropriated/misapproprited by that right-wing organ with it's corrosive ACT/Nat-friendly jocks/hosts.

        • RedBaronCV 7.4.1.1
          15 August 2020 at 11:38 am

          Yes Magic used to be about 2 years ago just a station that played the old hit music. Then they moved it along to the talk back – maybe trying to keep some of the audience

        • Stunned Mullet 7.4.1.2
          15 August 2020 at 12:37 pm

          Heh …..you sound a bit like the old codgers who used to complain about the appropriation of 'gay'.

    • weka 7.5
      15 August 2020 at 10:48 am

      "It's articles like this that make me think we need procedures to get dangerously ignorant garbage taken down – and review the talkback sewers whence they come."

      Not quite sure what you had in mind, but once Newsroom has been forced to remove one of its pieces, do you think the ‘economy before life’ right and altright, and the ‘govt can't be trusted’ altleft, who want those pieces in the public domain are going to:

      1. come to their senses and agree that the left is all good, carry on Jacinda?
      2. continue to organise on social media and places that can't be monitored or easily seen?
      3. form alliances across the right, alt right, libertarians and alt left whose mission will be to take down the people advocating for and controlling the censoring (broadly perceived as the left).
      4. radicalise even further right/alt while we're not looking?
      5. all of the above except for 1?
      • Stuart Munro 7.5.1
        15 August 2020 at 11:50 am

        I was thinking more along the lines of the rules that govern misleading advertising.

        The writer is a liar and a fool – if we tolerate this style of discourse, we will see more of it, until our country is swallowed by a Trumpian morass like the US.

        Truth is the basic requirement of civic discourse. Once the truth requirement is vanquished there is nothing left but factionalism – opinions of equal weight, competing on the basis of novelty or notoriety, needing no concordance with any factual base. Open season for frauds, scoundrels, and dupes like Billy TK.

        Editors – back when they existed – used to maintain such standards.

        • Draco T Bastard 7.5.1.1
          15 August 2020 at 1:46 pm

          Once the truth requirement is vanquished there is nothing left but factionalism – opinions of equal weight, competing on the basis of novelty or notoriety, needing no concordance with any factual base.

          Exactly and it does its part in destroying society as we see in the US and its ongoing failure.

    • AB 7.6
      15 August 2020 at 11:12 am

      Alternatively, the more RWNJs who expose and discredit themselves the better. It's a grisly form of fun to see them flip out and reveal their hearts of darkness. There may be superior efficacy in seeing them held in public contempt, rather than shutting them down?

      • greywarshark 7.6.1
        15 August 2020 at 12:23 pm

        Here is a great sound effect to the minds of the unrighteous! Conspiracy theorists, harbingers of doom, termites to government, termagents that often appear in morality plays; and it is getting to that level now, where is the morality in the right-wing?

        Kim had it on this morning. I thought woo hoo that's the dirge for today.

        Tom Waits with What's He Building in There. (Paranoia plus, just right for the creeps on the dark web.) Followed up by the Earth Died Screaming – I kid you not. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMqxNPsfN50

        • Incognito 7.6.1.1
          15 August 2020 at 12:36 pm

          heart

        • PaddyOT 7.6.1.2
          15 August 2020 at 2:22 pm

          Spot on clip GWS. I’m still left wanting to know what he was building surprise.

          I don't think though it's just a dark web thing.

          The journalists today at the live media updates. Just a bunch of feckin sharks with questions so loaded with their own agenda of let's find a f#up and stoke the wildfires of division. Is there racism, the border is broken, suggesting resignations of Blomfield and Hipkins, why are the public waiting until 1pm….debunked by Hipkins who should have said 'because you overpaid journalists with a fuckwittery degree, the scientific links have to be made before speculation is made a fact !'
          And away they go to write their monotonous " He/she f#ked up articles."

    • Just Is 7.7
      15 August 2020 at 11:31 am

      It's only his opinion, which contrasts significantly to general consensus.

      He's welcome to go and live in Sweden if he's unhappy with the NZ regime.

    • Draco T Bastard 7.8
      15 August 2020 at 1:32 pm

      Looks like fulminating ignorance from here, and ignorance isn't entitled to publication.

      Said it before, I'll say it again – the publication of misinformation needs to be illegal with heavy (>$1m) fines.

  8. Treetop 8
    15 August 2020 at 9:29 am

    There are 3 things that must be done to prevent a case until a vaccine is found.

    1. Wear a face mask and socially distance 2 metres.

    2. Testing and contact tracing (a rapid method).

    3. Strict border control with testing at day 3 and 12.

    During an outbreak the management includes the above with additions.

    Who and when to test needs to be well thought out. Even retesting if a person becomes unwell after a test or is contact traced.

    • Stunned Mullet 8.1
      15 August 2020 at 9:39 am

      and 4 – all persons in border control, working at quarantine facilities and all international flight staff will be subject to testing every 7 days.

      • Treetop 8.1.1
        15 August 2020 at 11:02 am

        I brushed on this @2. I do not know if mandatory testing can be insisted on for workers in isolation, quarantine or international or domestic flight crew.

        The above is now an issue which needs to be addressed and done in a way which is helpful.

        In the health system a person can refuse a procedure.

        • Stunned Mullet 8.1.1.1
          15 August 2020 at 11:10 am

          The above is now an issue which needs to be addressed and done in a way which is helpful.

          It was always an issue and has been handled poorly

          In the health system a person can refuse a procedure.

          Yes, and that can have consequences, also it can quite easily be part of the terms of employment that tests are mandatory for staff. If they don't want to undergo the test I'm sure there's other less higher risk jobs within their respective places of employment.

        • greywarshark 8.1.1.2
          15 August 2020 at 11:15 am

          Mandatory testing has to be accepted as part of the job. Even if the people concerned are not about their own health.

        • Graeme 8.1.1.3
          15 August 2020 at 11:43 am

          I seem to remember an episode of Bridges' squark show (Pandemic Response Committee) where compulsory testing had been proposed and the idea was being ripped to shreds on 'invasion or privacy and personal rights' grounds.

          Is this why National are rather quiet around this.

          • Gabby 8.1.1.3.1
            15 August 2020 at 6:37 pm

            I shouldn't think holding double standards has suddenly struck the gnatsys as a bad idea.

      • Tricledrown 8.1.2
        15 August 2020 at 12:06 pm

        Yet no proof of spread from border control RNA sequencing shows this outbreak has no connection.

    • Rosemary McDonald 8.2
      15 August 2020 at 9:59 am

      This thing mutates readily, so a vaccine is not going to be humanity's savior. Been thinking over the past few days that maybe we should let the young and the fit go about their normal lives and put our resources into protecting the vulnerable. Make sure everyone knows about washing hands and covering coughs and sneezes and spitting and hoiking. All the basic stuff we learned, but let slip, because we thought medical science was going to fix everything. Good nutrition.

      (I'd stop all government subsidies for the hospitality industry with their pack 'em in to maximise profit culture…I'm kinda over hearing them whinge. Tbh. Pack folks in like sardines, fill them with piss, play loud music….virus paradise.)

      • Tricledrown 8.2.1
        15 August 2020 at 10:27 am

        Rosemary McDonald your claim the virus mutates so a vaccine won't work is fake news of the worst kind.

        Carona viruses do not mutate in the same way as the flu.

        The Carona virus's only mutates in minute ways.

        So it is easier to make one vaccine unlike seasonal flu's

      • ScottGN 8.2.2
        15 August 2020 at 10:33 am

        Flu mutates even more readily and yet every year we manage to come up with a shot for that?

        • Tricledrown 8.2.2.1
          15 August 2020 at 11:00 am

          Carona Viruses are closely related to the common cold which is very hard to make a vaccine for.

          With modern genome sequencing and powerful computers it is becoming easier and quicker to develop a vaccine

        • Adrian 8.2.2.2
          15 August 2020 at 3:03 pm

          Actually Scott we come up with a vaccine for LAST years flu that is still hanging around and before the current years flu has gotten much traction.

      • SPC 8.2.3
        15 August 2020 at 10:41 am

        1. The vulnerable will include 100,000+ who support their families through public fronting work but whom have conditions that put them at risk.

        2. No one has successfully prevented deaths in care homes where there is community spread.

        3. The health impacts on young people can include long recovery periods and whether there are permanent impacts is as yet unknown.

        And we do not yet know that a vaccine will not be effective with the coronavirus – the cold was not bad enough for the effort.

        We vary the flu + vaccine each year, the same can apply to the SARSCOV2 + vaccine.

        Given realising Level 1 delivers better economic results than the community spread economics of Europe and USA, its the best option while we learn more about treatment and wait to learn about the success or otherwise.

        Frankly our health system led us to where we are – it would take a decade of training and investment to get our health system to the point where we had an alternative choice. Something the right will not do, because they do not care if those outside their middle class bubble are at risk.

      • Bearded Git 8.2.4
        15 August 2020 at 11:01 am

        "maybe we should let the young and the fit go about their normal lives and put our resources into protecting the vulnerable."

        So how does this work? Level 3 lockdown for everybody except the under 25's?

        Pass me the smelling salts.

        • SPC 8.2.4.1
          15 August 2020 at 11:18 am

          In Sweden the young of Stockholm operate at Level 2 – as allowed, the middle aged of families operate at Level 3 by choice and the old in fear for their lives operate at Level 4.

          Many of the shops have little custom – the young spend on socialising, the families order online. Restaurants are scarcely used by any except the young.

          The Swedes (especially outside Stockholm where the youth go to have a social life) joke that the 2m social distancing is hard, they would prefer their normal 5m – which is why they live outside of Stockholm.

          • Treetop 8.2.4.1.1
            15 August 2020 at 11:40 am

            It is not far off that there is going to be a comparison between a pandemic footing and a war footing.

            Which is worse?

            • SPC 8.2.4.1.1.1
              15 August 2020 at 12:00 pm

              Two weeks at level 3 is cheap for another 3 months at Level 1.

              North America and Europe gets level 2 at best and back to Level 3 when the spread surges again.

              We don't know how lucky we are.

          • Bearded Git 8.2.4.1.2
            15 August 2020 at 10:58 pm

            SPC-The other day I heard a Port Vale fan argue that they have been practising social distancing for years*.

            *Port Vale are a team who play in the fourth tier of soccer in England and average only around 4,000 spread out across the terraces at each game. (Though my guess is these 4,000 are far more genuine fans than many of the fans who support Premier League clubs…Burnley excepted of course.)

      • Treetop 8.2.5
        15 August 2020 at 11:26 am

        Hoiking is not good and those who do it need to be fined.

        Some people complain about a loss of freedom during lockdown. Not having community transmission is the ultimate freedom. Either way there is a price paid.

        There is the save the economy brigade and the save Covid lives brigade. People will have a preference and this is a cause of conflict.

      • weka 8.2.6
        15 August 2020 at 6:43 pm

        "Been thinking over the past few days that maybe we should let the young and the fit go about their normal lives and put our resources into protecting the vulnerable."

        Why? Compared to what we are doing now, which prevents death and disability?

        And how? How do you imagine that families will protect their vulnerable people? By never spending close time with them? What about people that work? Should they go on the dole and stay home?

        • Treetop 8.2.6.1
          16 August 2020 at 11:00 am

          These questions you ask are big, due to the layers and the circumstances of what an individual is prepared to do in a given situation.

          • weka 8.2.6.1.1
            16 August 2020 at 11:25 am

            Indeed. And also what society is willing to do or not do collectively.

            I've not yet seen a good explanation of how vulnerable people would be protected, and I’m left with the impression we would have to take ourselves off somewhere and sort it out, or engage with society as per normal and suck up the risk of death and/or disability.

  9. Rosemary McDonald 9
    15 August 2020 at 9:50 am

    600 % increase in blocked pipes in the Gisborne sewer system…since we all went to Level 2.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/423592/massive-increase-in-blocked-pipes-in-gisborne-s-sewers-after-alert-level-changes

    Seriously…wtf? Caused by folks flushing wetwipes. Why such an absolutely massive increase in such lunacy since Wednesday? Last Lockdown, there was a 2400 % (is that even an actual measurement) increase in the number of blockages due to wetwipes.

    Are folks using the wipes instead of toilet paper in case we are in Lockdown forever and there is no hope of toilet paper ever being available again? Is this some weird Lockdown syndrome we're seeing here?

    Someone should write a paper…

    • Pingao 9.1
      15 August 2020 at 10:08 am

      Wet wipes are usually antiseptic and used for other purposes like wiping down surfaces such as kitchen benchtops and door knobs so toilet paper would not really work and lots of people would find it repugnant to use on certain surfaces. Also apparently lots of people use them to remove makeup but that is another topic.

      Personally I dislike them because they contain plastic and cause environmental problems and blockages but my circumstances mean it is no issue for me to do without them. I guess they are really useful for some people who have to clean and wipe down surfaces frequently so the issue with the tissue is disposal (or find a better alternative).

    • Robert Guyton 9.2
      15 August 2020 at 10:11 am

      "Someone should write a paper…" or a wet wipe.

    • Tricledrown 9.3
      15 August 2020 at 10:29 am

      Maybe just more people spending a penny at home

    • bwaghorn 9.4
      15 August 2020 at 10:41 am

      It's long over due that councils come up with a system that can handle wipes and fat ffs people always have and always will do what they want.

      • Pat 9.4.1
        15 August 2020 at 11:15 am

        …and listen to the howls of the ratepayers who refuse (often due to the lack of wherewithal) to invest in the current system.

        So many solutions….until the cost/resources are accounted for.

  10. Andre 10
    15 August 2020 at 9:56 am

    If anyone hasn't been paying enough attention to form an opinion about Kamala Harris, here's a rundown for ya.

    • mauī 10.1
      15 August 2020 at 10:50 am

      You're in trouble when Fox is the only channel to give a real Democrat a fair hearing.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUsU-oFyFUw

      • Andre 10.2.1
        15 August 2020 at 11:13 am

        Clearly the general population includes an astonishingly large proportion of masochistic coprophages.

      • AB 10.2.2
        15 August 2020 at 11:18 am

        Well said. I'd also be asking myself – "what am I going to do about it, if the chicken turns into a platter of sh*t right after I swallow it?"

      • mauī 10.2.3
        15 August 2020 at 11:41 am

        A sure fire vote winner…

        • sumsuch 10.2.3.1
          16 August 2020 at 12:22 am

          The nonsense of 'America always for the rich' invites revolution. That's what happens without democracy. We here in NZ have made the careful choice to only completely exclude the lowest 20 %. The 60 to 70 % inbetween have hope. And the top believe they're there by merit. A better joke than a country.

          If America's elite understood reality or if the the people understood solidarity … so violence.

          To spell it, democracy is legitimacy.

    • Treetop 10.3
      15 August 2020 at 11:52 am

      Harris has work experience as an attorney and will last a 4 year term. Trump and Biden will not due to the US having a pandemic, looming depression and probable protests due to 1 & 2.

      The US is not advanced at all when it comes to health care and housing the homeless, hard times are ahead.

  11. Patricia Bremner 11
    15 August 2020 at 11:11 am

    On vodafone my reply button is not working currently.

    Climaction,
    I believe in BLM. I believe in free speech with responsibility.
    L1 any number of protesters
    L2 100 2m apart protesters
    L3 stay close to home, only go out for shopping medical or if you are going to work.
    L4 As for L3 except essential workers only. So how do they ‘safely’ protest then?

    I do not believe our state of emergency should be threatened or undermined.

    • RedLogix 11.2
      15 August 2020 at 11:54 am

      BLM is a radical marxist movement. In a 2015 interview one of the founding members described herself as a "trained marxist" As far as I'm concerned marxists on the extreme left are every bit as out of bounds as are fascists and race supremacists are on the right. It's the same old Stalinist/Maoist evil reshaped and recycled to parasitically exploit otherwise legitimate left wing concerns around race, gender and inequality.

      The fact that they truly believe public safety should be put at risk because they have a 'higher cause' really tells you all you need to know about what really matters to them.

      • McFlock 11.2.1
        15 August 2020 at 5:41 pm

        One marxist does not a maoist movement make.

        • RedLogix 11.2.1.1
          15 August 2020 at 5:58 pm

          Both co-founders as stated in the link.

          • McFlock 11.2.1.1.1
            15 August 2020 at 6:06 pm

            🙄

            didn't see "maoist" in the link. Did I miss it? Or do you think all marxists are maoists?

            • In Vino 11.2.1.1.1.1
              15 August 2020 at 7:19 pm

              Thank you for nice use of poetry, McFlock

              Edit: It seems to me that all too often as soon as many people join up to a worthy cause, some smarty comes along and slates those people as naive victims of dirty, conspiratory enemies of society, still Marxist or Communism, despite the virtual collapse of Communist states, or the departure from Communism of any survivors..
              Can we stop this silly Reds Under the Beds crap?

              • RedLogix …
                15 August 2020 at 7:39 pm

                The co-founder of BLM in the video I linked to above clearly states that she and the other co-founder are both "trained marxists" exactly at 7:11.

                Any other questions?

    • Drowsy M. Kram 11.3
      15 August 2020 at 12:45 pm

      BLM, and the movement is an expression of distress about racial inequality, IMHO.

      “Mama, I Can’t Breath”
      https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/53750379-i-can-t-breath

      • RedLogix 11.3.1
        15 August 2020 at 12:54 pm

        The concern is legitimate, the relegating of other people's safety as being of 'lessor importance' is not.

        It's always instructive to see what people do when they're given a bit of moral power.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 11.3.1.1
          15 August 2020 at 1:02 pm

          It's also instructive to see what people do to delegitimise such ‘power‘, again IMHO.

          • RedLogix 11.3.1.1.1
            15 August 2020 at 1:10 pm

            I'm not ‘delegitimising’, I'm openly opposing it. We did the marxist experiment in the 20th century on multiple occasions, and without exception it proved an indefensible, genocidal catastrophe. There is zero excuse for pretending otherwise.

            In the linked to words of it's co-founder marxism was baked into BLM right from the outset. Marxism corrupts everything it touches, the left needs to draw the boundary and repudiate it once and for all.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 11.3.1.1.1.1
              15 August 2020 at 1:23 pm

              Was expressing a generalised opinion – nothing personal.

              You're openly opposed to BLM, and you have your reasons. I'm openly supportive of BLM, so our positions are irreconcilable. From time to time I will respond to comments that are openly anti-BLM, but promise that I won't go on about it – two replies (to you) max. That self-imposed limit has been reached.

            • In Vino 11.3.1.1.1.2
              15 August 2020 at 7:31 pm

              Redlogix

              We did NOT do any proper Marxist experiments last century. You seem to have no idea about how societies operate, and you are pushing a simplistic piece of Capitalist propaganda. Shameful.

              • RedLogix …
                15 August 2020 at 7:36 pm

                You believe that if someone like you had been in charge of the revolution it would have all been sweetness and light. Is this not so?

                • In Vino …
                  15 August 2020 at 8:01 pm

                  Utter rubbish

                  • RedLogix …
                    15 August 2020 at 9:38 pm

                    Listen to the first hour or so of Gulag Archipelago and get back to me. The evil was there right at the beginning. Even reading letters between Marx and Engels it's clear they both believed the 'glorious ends' justified whatever 'means' it took. And the same echoes in the BLM ideology.

                    Incidentally I'm possibly the only person you know who has been to both Magadan and the Gulag Museum at Perm. Maybe I am biased as a result of this experience, but I maintain there is zero excuse.

                    • solkta …
                      15 August 2020 at 9:49 pm

                      Even reading letters between Marx and Engels it's clear they both believed the 'glorious ends' justified whatever 'means' it took.

                      Citation required.

                    • In Vino …
                      15 August 2020 at 11:14 pm

                      I already know all that. I suspect that I am older than you and have read more history.

                      My point is that there has never been any fair test between Marxism and Capitalism.

                      No rich, seriously industrialised country with a culture of democracy has ever tried Marxism. Therefore, there has never been any fair test. And don't try to tell me that Russia is not a largely poor country. It has been a super power only because of its immense size.

                      Stalin was the latest of the great, powerful Tsars, who always ruled Russia with a rod of iron. Marxism actually meant little to him – it was just another weapon in the arsenal of a totalitarian, as all the previous rulers of Russia were. Totalitarians.

                      Much the same applies to China and Mao.

                      Your claim that Marxism is a proven failure is unproven.

                      The only thing proven so far is that violent revolution results in a new régime that is usually as horrible as the previous one, especially in large countries. The culture of a country is never changed by a big revolution, it seems.

                      The places you have been to are irrelevant if you are filled with Capitalist prejudices.

  12. Anne 12
    15 August 2020 at 11:37 am

    The Government has been accused of a “patronising” and “racist” policy for moving Covid-19 positive people into quarantine.

    This is so much poppycock.

    It is the circumstances around a cluster case that is the deciding factor as to how it will be handled. In this case, a family who have interacted over a period of nearly two weeks with a large number of people have inadvertently infected many of them and there is the potential for quite a few more to come. This is a dangerous scenario and its not surprising the MoH and government want to do everything they can to reduce the chances of it happening again. If there is any ‘racism’ involved, it is concern that Pacific Islanders in particular are known to be vulnerable because of underlying health problems prevalent among them. I call that positive discrimination.

    What makes me even angrier is that the two individuals quoted go on to commit reverse racism against those they have charged as being ‘patronising and racist.’

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/300082800/coronavirus-quarantine-policy-shift-is-racist-critics-say

    • RedLogix 12.1
      15 August 2020 at 11:59 am

      According to the current 'de-colonising' thinking everything associated white people, including all science and medicine, is inherently and irredeemably racist.

      So no surprises here.

    • SPC 12.2
      15 August 2020 at 12:13 pm

      The difference between now and last time is that then we were at level 4 for a month then level 3 for a month with multiple clusters.

      This time we want out of Level 3 within 2 weeks and that requires shutting down spread fast as.

      The Professor thinks its all about brown people this time and white people last time – she would not be lacking intellect, so its about political posturing and racial grievance opportunism.

    • Treetop 12.3
      15 August 2020 at 12:14 pm

      I heard that one family had to isolate for 46 days as relatives kept coming into the cluster. Think Hipkins said this.

      Asking that a sacrifice is made it is up to the individual who does it to complain and not shit stirring by the media. Even though people maybe reluctant they are not being charged.

      A facility needs to meet the health needs of the detained.

      Covid-19 does not discriminate.

    • Tricledrown 12.4
      15 August 2020 at 12:23 pm

      Maori and Pacific people are more prone to succumb to Covid 19.

      If covid 19 got out of Control in our community the scaremongers would be saying we failed our people.

      This is mischievous race baiting by the media trying to divide.

      Having larger families crowded houses is the perfect vector for rapid spreading of covid 19.

      Our families have higher rates of underlying health issues such as Diabetes high blood pressure etc.

      Less access to primary health care our elderly live with us not in care facilities.

      Quarantine is the smartest option and unlike the hysteria creating headline reading deeper the Health authorities are happy to work with families to find suitable solutions for each situation.

      Trumpish fake news headlines at a time we need to find the best solutions for a very sneaky disease.

      • greywarshark 12.4.1
        15 August 2020 at 1:32 pm

        edit
        There was a term ‘the grievance machine’ which took a pot shot at those with Waitangi Claims claiming for land and grieving culture loss.

        Now dedicated Sherlocks are faulting our health measures intended to control this novel virus when it acts to protect their own people, as part of the whole nation. If kuia and koroua started dying from the virus there would be complaints that not enough had been done.

        I think it is of importance that we know just what is being said, so we can feel satisfied that this is not an example of egregious racism to add to occurrences happening for some time which must be stopped. This is definitely not another to be faulted. Link at 12 above.

        On Friday, an expert advisory group set up in response to the pandemic Te Rōpū Whakakaupapa Urutā, criticised the shift.
        The group’s co-leader Professor Papaarangi Reid said it was punitive instead of mana-enhancing.

        “It’s racist on a number of levels,” said Reid. “It’s racist because it’s patronising. It’s racist on its stereotyping. It’s racist on its assumption we don’t have the skills and the decision-making power to make good decisions.”

        Reid is concerned the policy will increase mistrust of health authorities amongst Māori and Pacific people particularly as conspiracy theories start to take hold.

        She said Te Urutā agrees isolation of infected people is an essential component of managing the virus but they’re asking the government to re-think it’s strategy of making it compulsory.
        “Covid-19 is a public health issue and if we are to truly get this pandemic under control, it requires a robust and positive public health response, rather than a punitive one,” Reid said.

        “We insist on partnership and reject paternalism.”
        “One does wonder whether the change is in relation to current cases being predominantly from Māori and Pacific communities,” Reid said.
        “This did not happen when most of the Covid cases were Pākehā.”

        and

        Dr Rawiri Taonui, an independent researcher, said it was mainly Pākehā returning from overseas who carried the virus in the first wave of infection.

        “They didn't get locked down in quarantine,” Taonui said.
        “This has impacted Māori and Pacific people more, and all of a sudden we’re expected to quarantine. They don’t trust us. It hints at racism.”

        Maori want their culture understood. The government knows that family is important, and comes first even in an emergency. The request that isolation or quarantine not be compulsory completely sidesteps the reason for that control. She said Te Urutā agrees isolation of infected people is an essential component of managing the virus but they’re asking the government to re-think it’s strategy of making it compulsory. [Professor Papaarangi Reid]

        Government has stepped in to do something good, and to get the results we all want, preventing sickness and spread, we need to impose controls to make the plan work which will give the results we need.

      • Anne 12.4.2
        15 August 2020 at 1:48 pm

        @ SPC & Tricledown:

        Yes, its deliberate provocation likely for political reasons.

        A woman journo brought the matter up at today's 1pm presser (didn't recognise the voice) and her tone was quite hostile. However both Hipkins and Bloomfield knocked her down with "the facts".

        Worth listening to if you haven't already done so.

        • Patricia 2 12.4.2.1
          16 August 2020 at 6:48 am

          I think it would be useful if the name of the journalists asking the questions cold be displayed at the bottom of the screens. Sometimes their attitude is very hostile to the point of rudeness and I wonder at their lack of professionalism.

          • Anne 12.4.2.1.1
            16 August 2020 at 9:09 am

            Excellent idea Patricia2.

            That woman journo was determined to create embarrassment for both Ardern and Bloomfield. From memory it was in relation to the source of the current outbreak which has not yet been established. To assume as she did that it was caused by negligence (my word) at the border was irresponsible and playing into the hands of the naysayers and mischief makers.

            If their identities were known they would take care to check out the facts and cease to rely on rumour and speculation.

      • Foreign waka 12.4.3
        15 August 2020 at 9:06 pm

        Tricledrown

        It is an advantage if the elderly are living with family, at least they have some dignity. I wont elaborate further but suffice to say I rather go bush, sit under a tree and die than go in one of those retirement homes. Healthcare access as such is for every race with limited resources equally inaccessible.

        To make out that this undoubtedly tragic pandemic affecting everybody world wide is one of race and claims etc, only shows an utter disconnect to what is actually happening.

        It seems to me that it is opportunism and failure of any humanity that is being heralded as being a valid point in this situation.

    • RedBaronCV 12.5
      15 August 2020 at 12:45 pm

      Arrangements have also been made for the Tokoroa families that are not a hotel. And judging by the little bit on the TV last night – Tokoroa has been awesome in spreading the news and turning up for the testing. Perhaps a small reward from the rest of us taxpayers towards something the town wants that could be enjoyed by all of them.

    • weka 12.6
      15 August 2020 at 2:48 pm

      I think her position and the article are more nuanced than that.

      Bloomfield is saying that it's not that people have to go to a Q hotel, but that the health authority has to be convinced that the isolation situation is fit for purpose. I have no trouble imagining that that won't be done in culturally appropriate ways some of the time, and that some of the time that will be because of institutional, unconscious, casual or outright racism. Healthcare has better outcomes when delivered culturally rather than imposing from the dominant culture, so we should be paying attention to this.

      The other issue I would see there is the gap between the government's need to act and the months they've had to prepare while in partnership. I'm too far away to have a sense of how well they did but I don't think we should be writing of criticism from an expert advisory group that was set up in response to the pandemic.

      • SPC 12.6.1
        15 August 2020 at 2:56 pm

        For mine, the question – whether its different this time to last time because there were brown people involved, is Christchurch carpenter territory.

        • weka 12.6.1.1
          15 August 2020 at 6:44 pm

          what is Chch carpenter territory?

          • Anne 12.6.1.1.1
            15 August 2020 at 6:51 pm

            Jerry Brownlee – former woodwork teacher – espousing conspiracy theories about Ardern and Bloomfield.

          • SPC 12.6.1.1.2
            15 August 2020 at 6:53 pm

            Gerry Brownlee – just asking questions about government warnings of a potential new outbreak (asking us not to be complacent – not getting tested when getting symptoms) inferring the government knew and was not being transparent.

            • weka 12.6.1.1.2.1
              15 August 2020 at 6:59 pm

              We have institutional racism in the NZ health system, eg where cultural safety is ignored and services are delivered inappropriately. That's not a controversial thing to say. What makes you think that's not a factor in the pandemic response?

              • SPC …
                15 August 2020 at 8:20 pm

                Sort of depends whether you think the decision to quarantine those with community spread infection rather than leave them to their self isolation at home this time around was because of the colour of skin of those infected.

                For mine that is Brownlee territory.

                • weka …
                  15 August 2020 at 11:09 pm

                  Sort of depends on what you think racism is.

                  How do you know that ethnicity wasn't a factor? MoH takes ethnicity into account in lots of areas.

                  Reid didn't posit Q vs leaving people to self isolate at home. That's your thinking.

                  • SPC …
                    16 August 2020 at 7:03 am

                    I did not say it was Professor Reid, she only went as far as to say that the decision to quarantine Maori could be portrayed as punitive (linking this to the other agency lifting of children).

                    Which is saying, if Maori are not consulted and given right to consent or deny consent, its punitive. No its not, but it is authoritarian and because public safety is the priority. That issue is one over process, with consultation and mutually agreed arrangments – but having the army in the streets to guarantee home based quarantine is only viable while numbers are low.

                    Another, read the article, made the claim that the decision to take people from community, rather than just leave them to self isolate at home was because this time brown people were the ones infected.

                    That is totally untrue – its because last time we had multiple clusters, were applying a level 4 and then level 3 lockdown for the duration and had yet to establish managed isolation even for those returning.

                    This time, we have (hopefully) a single cluster, and aspire to shut it down as soon as we can to get out of Level 3 to reduce the cost of that.

                    And the stated reason for the current approach is to prevent spread of the virus through the family (which can last over a month), by providing a medically supervised stay for those infected. So I place the opinion of that person in the conspiracy theory false accusation territory of the Christchurch carpenter.

                    How do you know that ethnicity wasn't a factor? MoH takes ethnicity into account in lots of areas.

                    So you want to believe that the MOH is lying, because they never said it was a reason for doing so, and so give that conspiracy theory credence and undermine confidence in our public safety response. Then why not then also take the Christchurch carpenter seriously?

                    • weka …
                      16 August 2020 at 9:58 am

                      "Another"

                      Who would that be, specifically? I'm running out of patience for the vague-posting on TS at the moment. It's very hard to debate the issues when people aren't being upfront.

                    • weka …
                      16 August 2020 at 10:00 am

                      "How do you know that ethnicity wasn't a factor? MoH takes ethnicity into account in lots of areas."

                      So you want to believe that the MOH is lying, because they never said it was a reason for doing so, and so give that conspiracy theory credence and undermine confidence in our public safety response. Then why not then also take the Christchurch carpenter seriously?

                      No, lots of racism is unconscious bias or institutional.

                      What conspiracy theory? Racism doesn't need a conspiracy, it's built into a lot of NZ society.

                    • SPC …
                      16 August 2020 at 10:29 am

                      Dr Rawiri Taonui, an independent researcher, said it was mainly Pākehā returning from overseas who carried the virus in the first wave of infection.

                      “They didn't get locked down in quarantine,” Taonui said. “This has impacted Māori and Pacific people more, and all of a sudden we’re expected to quarantine. They don’t trust us. It hints at racism.”

                      12.4.1 – from the Stuff article.

                    • SPC …
                      16 August 2020 at 10:31 am

                      No, lots of racism is unconscious bias or institutional. What conspiracy theory? Racism doesn't need a conspiracy, it's built into a lot of NZ society.

                      Do you believe that the quarantine this time is because the people are brown skinned?

                    • weka …
                      16 August 2020 at 10:41 am

                      I think that it's a natural progression of NZ's pandemic response. This doesn't preclude institutional racism, nor ethnicity being part of the decision making process, nor the fact that Māori still feel the MoH isn't in appropriate partnership with them 6 months into the pandemic.

                      Do you have any evidence that ethnicity wasn't a consideration at all in decisions being made around this outbreak? That would be odd, given the number of Pasifika and Māori people in the affected communities.

                    • SPC …
                      16 August 2020 at 10:55 am

                      So those making accusations of racism, do not need evidence but those questioning it do.

                      Known facts

                      last time we had multiple clusters, were applying a level 4 and then level 3 lockdown for the duration and had yet to establish managed isolation even for those returning.

                      this time, we have (hopefully) a single cluster, and aspire to shut it down as soon as we can to get out of Level 3 to reduce the cost of that.

                      and the stated reason for the current approach is to prevent spread of the virus through the family (which can last over a month), by providing a medically supervised stay for those infected and to include community infections in the quarantine facilites that now exist.

                      And despite the fact that local arrangments can be made (as in Tokoroa with army required to secure the home) you still entertain the notion that because racism exists and institutional racism is a known that this was a factor in the decison-making – thus giving the Taonui conspiracy theory credibility.

                      I just hope common sense still exists in the party caucus, because if any of them were to take your line the party would be in trouble this election.

      • anker 12.6.2
        15 August 2020 at 4:18 pm

        rna sequencing shows no connection to cases coming through the border from overseas. That is how border staff would pick up the virus i.e. from overseas cases. Maybe why they are testing port workers. Could come through air line staff though after layovers.

        • Andre 12.6.2.1
          15 August 2020 at 4:45 pm

          I'm fairly sure Air NZ international aircrew are regularly tested. There's a few articles saying they are, and IIRC a conversation with a neighbour that works the flights to the US mentioned regular testing.

          That there's no genome link to any cases that have come through the border doesn't exclude that from being the source. All it would take is two false negatives, at day 3 and day 12, and the infected person would be through. Then one asymptomatic link (or low symptoms they didn't get checked) to one of the known cases, and that creates the situation we now have. Very unlikely for any individual case to be sure, but when tens of thousands are coming through the border over periods of months, the chances go up that it happens once.

          • SPC 12.6.2.1.1
            15 August 2020 at 7:05 pm

            There is Oz to here by boat/yacht. There is crew on ships/ports. There is someone in aircrew who left service and was then no longer tested.

      • anker 12.6.3
        15 August 2020 at 4:22 pm

        Ok so while the cultural appropriateness is worked out let gets them into quarantine.

        Stopping the virus is the number one priority over and above everything else.

        I am afraid that criticism that it might not be culturally appropriate to Q Maori and Pacifica is a variation on the people who didn't like it that their food preferences weren't met or they weren't offered water on a bus trip to Rotorua.

        ITS A PANDEMIC…………

        [Please don’t shout; it’s not necessary for good debate, thanks – Incognito]

        • weka 12.6.3.1
          15 August 2020 at 4:33 pm

          "Stopping the virus is the number one priority over and above everything else."

          Unless culturally relevant management of Q and isolation gives us better outcomes. Which is what I was saying.

          Put it another way. If the govt says everyone has to be removed to a Q hotel, and that means that some people won't get tested or will delay getting tested when they are sick, do you think this makes the system more effective or less?

          Leaving out the human factor here is a mistake, and I'm a bit surprised that the MoH didn't handle the messaging on this better generally. I can totally see that a paternalistic rather than cultural partnership approach in recent months might lead to worse outcomes.

        • Incognito 12.6.3.2
          15 August 2020 at 5:09 pm

          Ok so while the cultural appropriateness is worked out let gets them into quarantine.

          I don’t think anybody is strongly arguing that these people should now be allowed to leave quarantine and self-isolate back at home. I think the point is that the decisions should have been made in a partnership and with involvement of the people that are affected by these decisions. If so, I think that is a fair point. I confess, I had to read it more than once before I could take in the message/grievance.

          I am afraid that criticism that it might not be culturally appropriate to Q Maori and Pacifica is a variation on the people who didn’t like it that their food preferences weren’t met or they weren’t offered water on a bus trip to Rotorua.

          Consideration of and respect for culture is nowhere at the same level as food preferences or offering a bottle of water. You have created a strawman based on a false equivalence. At the same time, you exhibit cultural insensitivity if not bias.

          NZ has a long way to go if it continues to trample over concerns of Māori and Pacific people with a simple shoulder shrug. Indeed, it could drive them away and into the arms of and become conspiracists.

          • SPC 12.6.3.2.1
            15 August 2020 at 5:29 pm

            Public safety or being accused of cultural insensitivity … I'd fear death more than being de-platformed.

            • Incognito 12.6.3.2.1.1
              15 August 2020 at 5:58 pm

              Who’s mentioned or talking about “de-platformed”?? You’re in the wrong thread, it seems.

              From the Stuff link:

              We have demonstrated the ability and commitment of Māori and Pacific communities to stand up and do what is needed to protect ourselves from Covid-19.

              In other words, your comment is a false dichotomy.

              It appears that you have no personal experience with spiritual and cultural death.

              • SPC …
                15 August 2020 at 6:15 pm

                Are you truly unaware of the social media deplatforming phenomena? FYI, many begin with accusations of cultural insensitivity. As you did, as moderator – I await your warning.

                The Stuff article was about Maori claiming that community cases being moved into managed isolation was a new development because it involved brown people this time. When it in fact it it because we have one cluster and want it closed as asap. When in lockdown last time – we had one family in social isolation for over a month because of a cycle of infection through a family. The economic cost of that is what it is.

                Government incapacity is a threat to those in need because of their history.

                I think you conflate the personal with the cultural to make a cheap debate point.

                • Incognito …
                  15 August 2020 at 6:21 pm

                  Are you saying that I was de-platforming a commenter here?

                  • SPC …
                    15 August 2020 at 6:42 pm

                    Is it a strawman to say that cultural insensitivity by those in public service/government will lead to people believing the conspiracy theory that there is institutional racism?

                    And for your information, when middle class entitled people do not get the food that they want or a water bottle, or blamed for a caucus leak, they are just as likely to like a Public Party social media post as anyone else.

                    • Incognito …
                      15 August 2020 at 7:02 pm

                      I have no idea what this is supposed to mean but it sure did not answer my question whether I was de-platforming anyone here in this thread.

                      If you don’t want to engage with me then please don’t reply to my comments with unintelligible stuff and keep your accusations to yourself, thanks.

                    • SPC …
                      15 August 2020 at 7:07 pm

                      What accusation?

                    • Incognito []
                      15 August 2020 at 7:20 pm

                      de-platforming

                    • SPC …
                      15 August 2020 at 7:44 pm

                      You are the one who went from asking me whether I was accusing you of something, to then accusing me of doing something I did not do.

                      Based on what exactly?

                    • Incognito []
                      15 August 2020 at 8:18 pm

                      Based on this:

                      Are you truly unaware of the social media deplatforming phenomena? FYI, many begin with accusations of cultural insensitivity. As you did, as moderator – I await your warning. [my italics]

                      I mentioned “cultural insensitivity” to anker @ 12.6.3.2, so I guessed you accused me of de-platforming. I’ve been asking you to clarify but you have refused so far. Maybe this was the trigger: “As you did, as moderator …”. So, what’s the deal with de-platforming that you felt it necessary to raise with me in a reply to me?

                    • SPC …
                      15 August 2020 at 8:30 pm

                      Yes you accused someone of cultural insensitivity. And while with the power of moderator to deplatform or remove if only from a social media.

                      This in a discussion about removal of people into quarantine, and questioning of institutional exercise of power in the proper culturally sensitive way, so as to assuage feelings of lack of self autonomy.

                      You guessed, not from what I wrote. And some guy claimed the decision to quarantine this time was because the people had brown skin. Must have guessed that.

                    • Incognito []
                      15 August 2020 at 8:45 pm

                      Righteo. Finally, we’re getting somewhere. Phew!

                      I was commenting, not moderating. There was no warning or threat to anker to even hint that they were heading for the exit, so to speak. You incorrectly applied your slippery slope ‘argument’ to me/my comment. Sad, very sad indeed 🙁

                      I did guess from what you wrote. You cannot read or second-guess my mind or reasoning; you can only go on what is written here. Same for me and when in doubt, ask.

                      I have no idea who that “some guy” is whom you’re referring to but I don’t care. You may want to sharpen your comments and make them clearer. Just a suggestion, of course.

                      In summary, you were off the mark by a long shot. FYI, anker is making a genuine effort here and I have acknowledged that to them.

                    • SPC …
                      15 August 2020 at 8:54 pm

                      You did quote from the Stuff article in which that some guy was quoted.

                      Whatever …

                      I could go on about perspective in exercise of power and how that is perceived as a narrative in social media as well as race relations. Lack leads to alienation and conspiracy theories. And the heirarchy of special pleading – the first duty is public security of the people.

                      But why bother …

                    • Incognito []
                      15 August 2020 at 9:15 pm

                      Indeed, please don’t bother because you were and still are barking up the wrong tree. When I see that “some guy” I will give him your regards 😉

                    • SPC …
                      15 August 2020 at 9:27 pm

                      indecisionenlightenedmail

                      Some do not care for the message, so would rather have it not arrive in time to have communicative effect.

                      You could always do more tweeting.

                    • Incognito []
                      15 August 2020 at 10:25 pm

                      Sorry, I don’t do tweeting, not my thing and I’m having enough fun as it is here 😉

                      You, on the other hand strike me as avid tweeter.

                • Incognito …
                  15 August 2020 at 9:42 pm

                  The Stuff article was more nuanced that you make out. It was (also) about partnership with Māori and Pacific people. Snubbing them is the real issue that I took from the article and I think they have a point, as I said. Feel free to continue ignoring that grievance.

                  I think you conflate the personal with the cultural to make a cheap debate point.

                  Ignoring the dubious dig, culture is created and experienced through people and is as much personal as it is collective.

                  • SPC …
                    15 August 2020 at 9:58 pm

                    Yes it was about more, but this topic line was about whether such concerns should carry heft when there is a public saftey and public wellbeing (economic – as to length of lockdown) concerns.

                    Claiming a government location quarantine of Maori taken from their community is punitive action (but not Pakeha) is special pleading. It's now politicised because of the other agency and ambition for independent Maori health, Maori other agency etc.

                    It appears that you have no personal experience with spiritual and cultural death.

                    You are the expert on the personal digs.

                    • Incognito …
                      15 August 2020 at 10:50 pm

                      The topic line was about the article in Stuff. Or was it only about select paragraphs of your choosing?

                      I see, one size fits all? No partnership? I think you prove the article correct in its premise. As I said, NZ has a long way to go still with resolving Māori grievances.

                      You raised the spectre of death in a thread that, at its basis, is very much about the cultural and spiritual survival of a people. Mine was not so much a dig but an observation that you viewed things only from your own PoV, which is consistent with your one size fits all, I presume.

                    • SPC …
                      16 August 2020 at 7:17 am

                      This began with Annes'

                      The Government has been accused of a “patronising” and “racist” policy for moving Covid-19 positive people into quarantine.

                      She dismissed it as reverse racism.

                      The branch we were on is Anker's comment and your accusation of cultural insensitivity for this.

                      Ok so while the cultural appropriateness is worked out let gets them into quarantine. Stopping the virus is the number one priority over and above everything else. I am afraid that criticism that it might not be culturally appropriate to Q Maori and Pacifica

                      Which was over the top. To misquote Bradbury, some people (w-k-) on Twitter are the reason why people turn to ACT.

                      Multi-culturalism does not trump public safety, nor democracy.

                      Public safety or being accused of cultural insensitivity … I’d fear death more than being de-platformed. And this opine is now all the stronger after the fruit of the debate is considered.

                    • Incognito []
                      16 August 2020 at 2:27 pm

                      Sigh!

                      I see you’re still cherry-picking what you reply to and what not.

                      I’ve clearly explained why I considered anker’s comment culturally insensitive; the comparison with food preferences and passing a bottle of water was flawed.

                      Multi-culturalism does not trump public safety, nor democracy.

                      Just as well then that nobody has made that claim. If anything, it would be the opposite rather: a culture-specific and –inclusive approach is likely to have better health outcomes. There is ample evidence to back that up.

                      Public safety or being accused of cultural insensitivity …

                      False dichotomy.

                      I’d fear death more than being de-platformed. And this opine is now all the stronger after the fruit of the debate is considered.

                      Extrapolation in extremis.

          • anker 12.6.3.2.2
            15 August 2020 at 6:36 pm

            O.k Incognito some fair comments by you. I have a bee in my bonnet about people putting themselves and their beliefs, whatever those beliefs are above stamping this virus out.

            Ashleigh Bloomfield did say that the decisions made to quarantine was made with the Maori and Pacifica Health Unit at the Min of Health.

            I am terrified of this virus. I think everyone should do what they asked to do to protect the team of 5 million……

            I guess I would rely more on the experience of the people with covid who have been made to move to quarantine……how did that go for them…..

            • Muttonbird 12.6.3.2.2.1
              15 August 2020 at 7:03 pm

              I read at the time (can't find it) that the decision to MIQ was stop spread to family members inside the household and to reduce spread to family members outside the household.

              I'm taking that to mean separate the infected from the uninfected and to stop other family members becoming infected should they try to visit.

              MoH could not guarantee quarantine without sending them to MIQ. Can't see it helps the community having the Army on the streets outside their house!

              This also falls in line with the policy of MIQing returnees rather than have them self isolate.

              • SPC …
                15 August 2020 at 7:09 pm

                Can't see it helps the community having the Army on the streets outside their house!

                Being culturally sensitive is going to result in a conspiracy theory over the use of the military in the streets.

                • weka …
                  15 August 2020 at 7:13 pm

                  Are you saying that we shouldn't use the military if we need to?

                  Did Reid suggest that was what was needed?

                  • Muttonbird …
                    15 August 2020 at 7:16 pm

                    MIQ is the solution to not having multiple insecure locations having to be managed by stretched resources.

                  • SPC …
                    15 August 2020 at 7:18 pm

                    No. And I doubt it, it was what government decided was necessary if we are to exit lockdown on schedule.

                    PS I was also reacting to the linkage between cultural sensitivity and conspiracy theory raised by anonymous (ffs most of these people are white and middle class, apart from Uncle Billy of NZPP).

                    • weka …
                      15 August 2020 at 7:50 pm

                      I think Reid was saying that the conspiracy theorists are having an impact in Māori communities. She's not the only one saying this. The distrust of govt is a powerful aspect for many disenfranchised people. It's happening in Pākehā parts of the alt left too.

                    • SPC …
                      15 August 2020 at 8:00 pm

                      In the Stuff article she was on poinIt – about self reliance and autonomy for Maori, with mandatory quarantine by government otherwise dismissed as punitive if not organised as Maori chose.

                      And it’s not a conspiracy theory to accuse the establishement of being racist.

                      But it is wrong to presume, as another person quoted in the Stuff article did, that the new policy is because now brown people are infected.

                  • Incognito …
                    15 August 2020 at 9:59 pm

                    SPC is wittier than wit.

            • weka 12.6.3.2.2.2
              15 August 2020 at 7:16 pm

              " I have a bee in my bonnet about people putting themselves and their beliefs, whatever those beliefs are above stamping this virus out."

              It's not really about beliefs though. It's about making the system better for the people involved. Do you think that people in South Auckland don't want the best outcomes for their people? The issue is whether Māori and Pasifika are experts in how to manage health systems for their people. The evidence shows that they are. Contrary to what you are saying, this isn't harmful to wider society, it's more likely to make the process *safer.

              • anker …
                15 August 2020 at 7:34 pm

                Hi Weka, "It's about making the system better for the people involved"…

                The best outcome for all people in Aotearoa is to stamp out the virus, as effectively as possible. Ashleigh Bloomfield and the govt have done an outstanding job to date. Ashleigh B said in response to this issue that they had consulted with their Maori and Pacifica team………….

                To quote Professor Reid :" its racist on a number of levels" said Reid " Its racist because its patronising. Its racist on its stereotyping. Its racist on its assumption we don't have the skills and decision making power to make good decisions". Reid is asking the govt to re-think its strategy of making it (quarantine) compulsory. It requires a robust and positive public health response, rather than a punitive one"

                I am sorry Weka, but on nearly all levels I disagree with her views. I hope the govt doesn't re-think its decision to make quarantine at the Jet Park compulsory……..It is the best public health response and will help every single close contact of those with Covid 19.

                • weka …
                  15 August 2020 at 7:57 pm

                  "The best outcome for all people in Aotearoa is to stamp out the virus, as effectively as possible."

                  You seem to think this is incompatible with cultural safety and appropriateness. I'm suggesting that it will make stamping out the virus *more effective. We need everyone to be on board with the goal.

                  This is the group Reid belongs to. This is serious level health expertise.

                  Te Rōpū Whakakaupapa Urutā National Māori Pandemic Group

                  https://www.uruta.maori.nz/about

                  I don't think Stuff is serving us very well with the reporting.

                  From the Spinoff,

                  Reid told Stuff she was concerned the policy would increase mistrust of health authorities among Māori and Pacific, people particularly as conspiracy theories start to take hold. She said Te Urutā agrees isolation of infected people is an essential component of managing the virus, but they’re asking the government to rethink its strategy of making it compulsory.

                  I take that to mean not that she is saying Māori should be free to return home or not be isolated, but that there needs to be a better approach than just sending everyone to the main Q hotel. She could also be referring to messaging. Unfortunately neither MSM clarified.

                  Bloomfield agrees,

                  Yesterday, Bloomfield said there was room for flexibility in the new policy as long as the relevant medical officer of health was happy with the arrangement. “The final directive I’ve signed and sent out to medical officers of health isn’t saying that people have to be sent to the Jet Park in Auckland,” he said, adding that the Ministry of Health had been working with local iwi and the DHB to find a suitable arrangement for the two new cases in Tokoroa.

                  https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/15-08-2020/live-updates-august-15-cook-islands-closes-border-auckland-gp-tests-positive/

                  • weka …
                    15 August 2020 at 11:01 pm

                    Papaarangi Reid tweeted earlier,

                    • weka …
                      15 August 2020 at 11:02 pm

                      Looks like MSM were asking AB about the racism issues in the presser today (I haven't watched it).

                    • Muttonbird …
                      15 August 2020 at 11:05 pm

                      Clearly the MoH felt that family could not be isolated safely at home. This was time critical and having a discussion about how they might make it work endangered the rest of the population.

                    • weka …
                      15 August 2020 at 11:11 pm

                      You think they only thought of mandatory Q the day they imposed it? I doubt it. Much more likely is this policy was developed over time.

                      But let's put the past in the past, does this mean that the MoH should partner with Māori now?

                    • Muttonbird …
                      15 August 2020 at 11:24 pm

                      You're right, mandatory MIQ was most likely in the re-emergence plan because it is up and running now. In April it wasn't and there were well documented difficulties get the resources together.

                      This re-enforces that the decision is not culture based or racist as Reid is claiming. If I were Reid I'd be thinking about ways to help Maori and Pacific cases in isolation and their families outside isolation rather than invent conspiracy theories.

                      As far as I know there are very few exceptions from MIQ and those are on health grounds. We shouldn't be making exceptions on cultural grounds now.

                    • Incognito …
                      15 August 2020 at 11:41 pm

                      Ta

                    • weka …
                      15 August 2020 at 11:45 pm

                      getting sick of explaining this. When the health system has practiced cultural safety, it's not 'making exceptions on cultural grounds'. It's because it's best practice that leads to better outcomes. When the health system changes how it does things so that the system is more accessible to Māori, it's not making exceptions for Māori, it's honouring its treaty obligations by not thinking Pākehā needs are the default.

                      The only way I can see that this could be framed as making exceptions on cultural grounds is if you believe that Pākehā culture should be the default.

                    • Incognito []
                      15 August 2020 at 11:50 pm

                      Well said, albeit for the x-th time. I mentioned the “one size fits all” view to SPC an hour ago. Same thing.

                    • Muttonbird …
                      15 August 2020 at 11:51 pm

                      I'm getting sick of explaining it too. Clearly, with the resources available to MoH, MIQ in central facilities leads to better outcomes, and even they are apparently not that great sometimes.

                    • weka …
                      16 August 2020 at 12:19 am

                      what about the people who delay going for testing if they think they might end up in immediate Q rather than self-isolation.

                      You can assert that one size fits all leads to best outcomes, but you haven't made the argument yet that I have seen.

            • Incognito 12.6.3.2.2.3
              15 August 2020 at 9:56 pm

              Hi again anker,

              Apologies for this belated reply.

              I don’t think for a moment that those Māori and Pacific people are any less keen than you in stamping out this virus. I also don’t think that they are putting themselves and their beliefs above their health and safety and that of others. I think they are pleading for partnership and involvement in the decisions that affect their people. Not everybody will agree with certain aspects of MIQ, but this doesn’t mean they’d be completely and utterly opposed to the principle of MIQ. Professor Reid works in the Faculty of Medical and Health Sciences of the University of Auckland and she would be well aware of the need for MIQ. It is about how you apply the principle that is the issue, I think.

              You sure are not alone in being terrified of this virus. It is perfectly natural and understandable. Most of us are doing the right things.

          • weka 12.6.3.2.3
            15 August 2020 at 7:11 pm

            "I don’t think anybody is strongly arguing that these people should now be allowed to leave quarantine and self-isolate back at home."

            Yep. I haven't seen that argued at all. I took Reid's position to be that people should be allowed to self-isolate rather than everyone being forced into Q. No-one has said that Māori/Pasifika should just go home and do what they want.

        • Incognito 12.6.3.3
          15 August 2020 at 5:15 pm

          [Please don’t shout; it’s not necessary for good debate, thanks – Incognito]

        • anker 12.6.3.4
          15 August 2020 at 7:42 pm

          Incognito. I am really sorry, but I don't understand your comment asking me not to shout. I thought when people used caps while typing that indicated shouting….

          I am trying to be constructive here and on at least two occasions acknowledged others including yourself had a point.

          • Muttonbird 12.6.3.4.1
            15 August 2020 at 7:45 pm

            Ironic. Mods ask people not to shout, using bold type…

            [IF WE WANTED TO SHOUT WE WOULD. But we don’t. Clear now? – weka]

            [You’ve been around here long enough to know that moderation and associated notes are done in bold font and between square brackets, which really begs the question what the point of your comment is – Incognito]

            • weka 12.6.3.4.1.1
              15 August 2020 at 7:59 pm

              mod note 🙂

            • Incognito 12.6.3.4.1.2
              15 August 2020 at 8:04 pm

              See my Moderation note @ 7:45 PM.

              • Muttonbird …
                15 August 2020 at 8:29 pm

                Black bold is shouty and intimidating. Perhaps a nice pastel colour instead?

                • Incognito …
                  15 August 2020 at 10:33 pm

                  I’m sorry you felt intimidated by those big bold bolshie black letters. I’d suggest you pull your facemask over your eyes and use earplugs when reading TS.

                • weka …
                  15 August 2020 at 11:49 pm

                  it's so when people scroll down the page the note catches their eye. You'd be amazed at how many people don't see the note even with that. But by all means ask Lynn to code some special pastel colours for moderation and see how that goes 😈

          • Incognito 12.6.3.4.2
            15 August 2020 at 7:55 pm

            Hi anker,

            I cannot be at my device all the time; have got to eat and do other humanly things 😉

            I really do appreciate you making a positive contribution! Please remember that it is ok to disagree 🙂

            Regarding the ‘shouting’, this was about your last sentence @ 12.6.3, which was all in capital letters (caps). This is considered shouting and given the cranky mood here today I decided to say something about it (and decrease the font size). It is no big deal.

            I hope this alleviates your concern but please don’t hesitate to ask if something is unclear.

        • anker 12.6.3.5
          15 August 2020 at 7:50 pm

          Sorry Incognito just realized I did use caps for the "its a pandemic"….didn't quite click as you made it smaller.

        • sumsuch 12.6.3.6
          16 August 2020 at 12:40 am

          Incognito and Lprent, the best bouncers are wallpaper until needed. Why Weka is good, that bird that wandered in and out of of a hedge at a deep metropolitan Greymouth hostel where I stayed. The best is Martyn at TDB where no one interferes in free speech.

          Though I still come here for the talk.

      • Anne 12.6.4
        15 August 2020 at 4:39 pm

        Healthcare has better outcomes when delivered culturally rather than imposing from the dominant culture, so we should be paying attention to this.

        Except my reading of what happened is that MoH staff handled it with the utmost consideration for the people involved. There appeared to be 2 to 3 days of consultation with the Auckland family concerned – no doubt together with their local leaders – and there seems to have been a consensus that the best course of action for them was to go into an official quarantine facility.

        On the other hand, the two Covid victims in Tokoroa were not forced into a facility but were housed somewhere which was deemed safe both for them and members of the public.

        That tells me the dominant culture is not imposing their will on individuals, but is trying to accommodate everyone within the framework of the regulations laid down in the interests of the health and safety of the country as a whole during a deadly pandemic.

        I am getting sick and tired of attention seeking types (don't care how many letters they have after their name) and tabloid journos trying to create negative stories that invariably don't stand up to ultimate scrutiny.

        • weka 12.6.4.1
          15 August 2020 at 6:56 pm

          As far as I can tell Reid is talking about the directive from AB generally, not how the original family was dealt with. So everyone else that's tested positive since then, and many of those being Māori or Pasifika.

          AB says that going to the main Q hotel isn't the only option, it's more that the health authorities have to be satisfied that the situation is safe, so there's a discrepancy in messaging right there.

          On Friday, when asked about Te Uruta’s concern over mandatory quarantine, Bloomfield said it was a point well made.

          There was some flexibility for people and families infected through community transmission.

          “The final directive I’ve signed and sent out to the Medical Officers of Health is not saying that people have to be sent to the Jet Park in Auckland,” Bloomfield said.

          “It is saying that they have to be in a suitable quarantine arrangement the Medical Officer of Health is happy with.”

          We know that the health system often fails Māori and Pasifika, I'm not sure why it's not reasonable to look at the pandemic in that light too. Māori have been consistently saying there are issues. It doesn't harm us to acknowledge this, it makes the pandemic response stronger.

          One thing Reid is saying is that people have to feel like they can trust the MoH. That's a cultural issue.

          • anker 12.6.4.1.1
            15 August 2020 at 7:45 pm

            Weka your point about people having to feel they can trust the MOH is very valid. I strongly believe Reid's comments are promoting mistrust.

            • Incognito 12.6.4.1.1.1
              15 August 2020 at 10:09 pm

              I strongly believe Reid's comments are promoting mistrust.

              Mistrust from who?

              • anker …
                16 August 2020 at 3:35 pm

                hi Incognito, not sure if you will read this but just seen your question.

                Firstly at the 1pm press conference today Bloomfield said that Maori and PI people have had the highest test rates both first time around and in this recent outbreak. He commended them for this. This indicates they have a high trust for MOH, testing, stopping the virus etc, which is great, because we all know covid will hit these communities hardest……..Prof Reid was saying quarantine people this time was racist. (have transcribed her comments elsewhere on this thread. I believe if Maori and PI hear this message, they may start to question some of the procedures etc of health officials. If they are hearing from a Maori academic that some of the health management is racist then understandably suspicion might grow. I believe the MOH has earned our trust.

                • Muttonbird …
                  16 August 2020 at 3:54 pm

                  It's also worth noting our zero tolerance eradication approach to Covid is largely to protect our most vulnerable.

                  Our most vulnerable include care home residents but also Maori and Pacific communities which when compared to the whole population:

                  • have poorer housing
                  • live more in multi-generational households
                  • have higher movement of children between households
                  • have higher health needs
                  • have less access to primary health care

                  The factors which see Maori and Pacific communities among the most vulnerable to Covid are due to cultural differences, due to historic inequalities and racism, and sometimes due to a mixture of both.

                  Given our resources, mandatory MIQ in central locations is part of this zero tolerance eradication approach. If anything NZ as a whole has collectively rallied, as we do, to protect the most vulnerable – that is the state dependent elderly, and Pacific and Maori communities.

                  Sound patronising? I don’t think so, and I’m proud of the collectivism shown by Kiwis in this fight.

                  • Incognito …
                    16 August 2020 at 11:45 pm

                    I do think that the one-size fits all approach/attitude is patronising, as it seem to assume it will provide the best health outcomes for all, which is demonstrably not true. Our current health system is based on Pākehā norms and culture, for and by Pākehā, mainly. The same one-size fits all mentality is baked into what you call “collectivism”. It is not wrong per se, as it has delivered quite a good outcome (!) so far, but it is patronising, especially to Māori and Pacific people who have experienced this for many generations and this is just yet another symptom of a much larger and wider/deeper problem. To suggest that trust is enough is simplistic and naive, because trust in authority implies an intrinsic asymmetry of power. Pākehā would less easily object to Pākehā authority. In the absence of sufficient representation of Māori and Pacific people in Management and Leadership of MoH, for example, a partnership is the best option, IMHO.

                • Incognito …
                  16 August 2020 at 9:46 pm

                  Hi anker,

                  I see what you mean now, thanks. I don’t think the issue of institutionalised racism is new and one cannot tackle it without calling it out and raising awareness. The call for partnership, in my mind, emphasises the view that a constructive dialogue is a necessary step towards better outcomes, but that even with the status quo the health outcomes are preferable, albeit sub-optimal, to driving people away from the current system altogether, if that makes any sense. The onus is on ‘the powers that be’ to forge a partnership as they hold the power – it has never been a symmetrical relationship in NZ.

  13. RedLogix 13
    15 August 2020 at 12:10 pm

    On a totally non-political note I think some of you may enjoy this YT channel called "Time Lab". A group of Russians producing typically short and highly beautiful clips that I find quite mesmerising. Best watched with headphones on a decent screen:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKaVhXn49xY

    • ianmac 13.1
      15 August 2020 at 8:22 pm

      Fascinating Redlogix. Surprising that one vessel can tow another at such close quarters but it works.

      • RedLogix 13.1.1
        15 August 2020 at 8:36 pm

        I'm not sure but I think the tanker is actually pushing slightly, while the icebreaker clears the path. It's the visual beauty of the clip, and the Hans Zimmer music (from Inception) that's wonderfully evocative.

        • ianmac 13.1.1.1
          15 August 2020 at 8:41 pm

          Yes Redlogix. A very beautiful action. Every ice split is unique and were there 2 polar bears scampering? Pretty chilly too.

        • Anne 13.1.1.2
          15 August 2020 at 11:09 pm

          Have watched it three times. Superb. I saw one polar bear ianmac.

  14. joe90 14
    15 August 2020 at 12:38 pm

    A reminder about what's at stake.

    • Muttonbird 14.1
      15 August 2020 at 12:43 pm

      It is David Seymour who is the "real menace" to this country.

      • Tricledrown 14.1.1
        15 August 2020 at 1:04 pm

        Seymour a tosher

        • mac1 14.1.1.1
          15 August 2020 at 1:21 pm

          Is this why he's promoting a euthanasia bill? So we can see our own useless eating mouths off?

          Just connecting the facts…..

        • Peter 14.1.1.2
          15 August 2020 at 2:18 pm

          Did you hear that when he's the power broker in the Collins government he's going to demand the end of school zoning? So that people can have choice according to the Act Bible?

          He wants it because of his and their standing for principles. He won't do it though because in that electorate they wouldn't vote for him. The main principle is to ignore your principles, they are to be turned on and off like taps according to electability.

    • SPC 14.2
      15 August 2020 at 12:49 pm

      Medical staff are a bit like fighter pilots in the BofB, a nation with limited specialists and understaffed wards as it is would be mad to allow community spread.

      • joe90 14.2.1
        15 August 2020 at 12:56 pm

        Yesterday, 36% of Victoria's new cases were healthcare workers.

    • Psycho Milt 14.3
      15 August 2020 at 1:07 pm

      They've convinced themselves that the virus only really affects 'useless eaters' like the elderly or people with chronic respiratory illness, and those people are a small price to pay for restoring the sacred BAU. Apparently a significant proportion of the population finds that attractive enough to vote for it.

    • Sabine 14.4
      15 August 2020 at 1:45 pm

      Might it be time to wipe student loans for overseas based nurses and medical staff to entice them back home?

      Might it be time to offer free studies, board n pocket cash for people to join the nursing and medical field?

      And why has that not been done? NZ always had issues with medical staff mainly due to super low wages, high living costs and loans that need repaying – This is not a new issue.

      Seriously did we as a country really believe that we would be safe from this virus while the world is not? Did we really get that smug?

      • SPC 14.4.1
        15 August 2020 at 2:07 pm

        I've long been a fan of tertiary debt written off for nurses over 5 years of work here 20% pa.

        There would still be the problem of staffing wards with more nurses given the HB's budget problems. They have been required to lift staffing ratios within a few years by the current government.

        The problem with free training is they can then leave OE for better wages. The 20% pa writeoff is one way around that.

        The next pay round will be important given National used the GFC and earthquake to make risible pay rises for three terms.

        There is a similar problem with resident doctors – which is why they have such long hours. Similar solution keep more here by the 20% debt writeoff and give them humane shifts.

        • Sabine 14.4.1.1
          15 August 2020 at 3:13 pm

          that was proposed a few years ago – early 2000 by some thinker here in NZ ,that we should bond medical and teaching staff in exchange for writing of student debt.

          My ex-Mil was responsible to hire medical staff in AKL, trying to get anesthesiologist into the country at the same speed they were leaving for overseas was a never ending challenge and one that let to many long delayed surgeries.

          Free training is good, as these could also be bonded to the hospital/rural clinic etc. Frankly, maybe we need to be less suspicious that someone might screw us over in regards for a better future. Atm and for long enough we have lost our best and brightest due to low wages, high living costs, un-affordable child care, studenloan repayments and lack of housing.

          Maybe it is time to try something else?

      • Draco T Bastard 14.4.2
        15 August 2020 at 4:22 pm

        NZ always had issues with medical staff mainly due to super low wages, high living costs and loans that need repaying – This is not a new issue.

        We didn't always have it like this – after all, training used to be free.

    • McFlock 14.5
      15 August 2020 at 5:47 pm

      Sweden's got 6000 dead from that approach.

      Per capita, that would be >3,000 in NZ.

      The number of people ACT is happy to watch die is about a quarter of the number of people who voted ACT in the last election.

      • Muttonbird 14.5.1
        15 August 2020 at 7:11 pm

        Seymour's legalised dying bill and referendum totally aligns with his Covid-19 policy.

        The lives of old and infirm are not as valuable as the lives of the rest of us.

    • Grafton Gully 14.6
      15 August 2020 at 6:27 pm

      [deleted]

      [Can you please explain your comment, thanks – Incognito]

      [don’t know what you were trying to achieve with that comment, but leave off with the sexism – weka]

      • Incognito 14.6.1
        15 August 2020 at 8:28 pm

        See my Moderation note @ 6:27 PM.

      • SPC 14.6.2
        15 August 2020 at 8:37 pm

        Worst Red Mole joke ever.

        And I knew people who worked in or with Red Mole here in New Zealand

        And the double first name but in reverse …

        They had better control the gun wing before it gets to court.

        Will the offspring of a hologram be viewable on Zoom?

  15. joe90 15
    15 August 2020 at 1:03 pm

    It's in their DNA.

    • Muttonbird 15.1
      15 August 2020 at 2:09 pm

      I understand Biden made reference to 'little black and brown girls', historically overlooked, being inspired by Harris.

      Clearly Biden was talking about actual young kids looking up to someone like them rise to high office.

      Leak appears upset by this concept, and has accused Biden of 'reverse racism' in his cartoon (as if that's a thing).

  16. Tricledrown 16
    15 August 2020 at 1:15 pm

    Our medical staff cost $millions to train they save lives.

    To throw these highly intelligent highly educated people into the trenches of an out of control pandemic is insanity.

    Seymour's time at university was punctuated by bouts of study between the very large amounts of alcohol consumed.

    I can see why he under values those who spent most of their time studying ie trainee Doctors who have to spend huge hours studying the huge hrs as locums.while the hologram dealt with his OCD burying it by continually being a drunken lout.

    Seymour is a coward .

  17. PaddyOT 17
    15 August 2020 at 1:16 pm

    From the lady who thought she was so essential that she fled level 3 lockdown to spread her love in Wellington.

    "I think more disappointed are the five million New Zealanders who have all been playing our part and have suddenly found we have been let down," she told the programme. ( The Nation this morning)

    She revealed National would be unveiling its own border policy in the coming week.

    Will it be a waste of paper for months before she has the power post election to enact it ?

    Any guesses how Judith's border policy will be different enough to garner votes ?

    • AB 17.1
      15 August 2020 at 1:45 pm

      "Any guesses how Judith's border policy will be different enough to garner votes ?"

      I'm thinking the main aim will be to garner Garner (and his ilk) so they can push the message.A bit of 'commonsense' authoritarianism should do the trick.

      • anker 17.1.1
        15 August 2020 at 2:22 pm

        Just finished watching the 1pm briefing. Bloomfield, Hipkins and of course Ardern inspire such confidence. They are doing a great job….Grant too.

        Having watched this and hearing about all the testing and tracing and the geonome sequence, I think wow they have really got this. Hope NZders will see this too………interesting that the company Amarcol??? sorry can’t quite remember the name had an outbreak in Melbourne….they are enquiring about that geonome………….

      • PaddyOT 17.1.2
        15 August 2020 at 2:43 pm

        On the fly authoritarianism policy 8 months plus after a pandemic begins.

    • greywarshark 17.2
      15 August 2020 at 1:56 pm

      You are too coy PaddyOT. Come out with which lady's name you mean. We haven't time to play guessing games when it isn't necessary.

      • PaddyOT 17.2.1
        15 August 2020 at 2:31 pm

        Her name is there in the post Judith, sorry about that, I didn't make it clear.

        JC is on again tomorrow on ‘Sunday’ to repeat the same old lines.

  18. AB 18
    15 August 2020 at 1:41 pm

    Farrarwatch: a member of our household responded to a Curia telephone poll a few days ago. One questions was: "Would you support Auckland Council being replaced by appointed Commisioners?"

    Perhaps the right's current inability to win control of this Council is making them keen to to push (ahem) 'efficient alternatives' into the public mind?

    • SPC 18.1
      15 August 2020 at 2:09 pm

      ECAN reprised.

    • Muttonbird 18.2
      15 August 2020 at 2:19 pm

      Is that push-polling?

      Introducing a concept never considered before to seed the population with that concept?

      • AB 18.2.1
        15 August 2020 at 3:32 pm

        Getting up there I would have thought. Mind you, the poll sample size was only a few hundred, which would limit its effectiveness as a push poll. More likely a testing of the waters for future initiatives.

  19. greywarshark 19
    15 August 2020 at 1:48 pm

    edit
    From Ignatius on TDB

    1) Phoned IRD told wait time was 15 minutes, call answered in 7.46
    2) Phoned Work and Income told wait time was 48 minutes, hung up phone as need to use bathroom at 1 hour and 21 minutes.
    3) Tried handing form into Work and Income outside of Auckland. Made to wait outside in rain with no marking for social distancing. Whilst the staff member wrote down people’s information one at a time for tracking purposes.

    Ignatius finished up with the thought of UBI. It make sense, with a vital proviso attached to it – that it is enough to live on and doesn’t diminish as soon as you earn something, but offers training in something that has a decent job at the end once you show you are ready for a step up through training. Let that replace the depot of despair that various governments have bred such a toxic culture with their policies as instituted, that the results are probable irreversible. WINZ culture seems to hate their 'clients', hate their jobs, be required to be inhospitable and harsh, and just a debit on our national expenses – a black hole for NZ humanity.

    • Sabine 19.1
      15 August 2020 at 3:16 pm

      lots of people unemployed,

      the government can hire some of the thousands of women unemployed as call takers. Bonus, they can all work from home, all the government has to do is set up the station, pay the phone bill and wages.
      As per their own statistics under – utilization and net unemployment has risen for women more then for men. That could be one of the shovel ready job programs benefiting women.

      Bingo.

      • Foreign waka 19.1.1
        15 August 2020 at 9:13 pm

        Sabine, tststs…. to much initiative, too fast, to logical and over and above, not an idea that was coming from one of their esteemed managers on an extraordinary salary.

  20. aj 20
    15 August 2020 at 2:25 pm

    WTF was TV1 doing in todays presser. Ran with a story in the lead up, designed to provoke fear (Tauranga, port workers, 6000 people who had been there in the last few days needed to be tested) then ran that headline banner during the presser. Late in the Q/A Bloomfield was asked about it and was visibly surprised.

    The announcement about port workers in AK and Tauranga being tested as part of a wider strategy on checks at the border had been announced yesterday and that headline was deliberately provocative. Totally irresponsible.

    • Treetop 20.1
      15 August 2020 at 3:06 pm

      Hipkins got it right, the daily 1 pm briefing checks the facts and has the most up to date information.

  21. anker 21
    15 August 2020 at 2:37 pm

    A lot of the questions at the presser were ridiculous e.g. the fire evacuation one. Even more so the questions about was someone going to lose their job over not ensuring testing at the border…….ffs. Hipkins was brilliant. Bloomfield too as usual……….Good questions about the geonome….

  22. Whispering Kate 22
    15 August 2020 at 3:59 pm

    Completely agree with thee presser. Lots of totally unnecessary provocative questions. Hipkins and Bloomfield dealt with them very well.

    On a happier note we in Auckland are having a simply beautiful day. Did all the rose pruning today, gave them a feed and the bulbs are coming up and spring has sprung. What a tonic it was. To top it off having a mid afternoon cuppa and we were visited by a beautiful rosella who enjoyed the bird bath and two of our resident doves sat on our barbecue table and preened each other and cuddled up.

    Days like this are just what we need. I just wish we could be more cooperative and not so "me me me". The Government is doing its best and we don't know how lucky we are. I have a loved one stuck in Maryland where the positive tests are averaging 700+ a day. She has been working from home since March. The US is a basket case and Australia are struggling. Some people are just so bloody selfish and need a kick up the proverbial.

    If you a in Auckland enjoy your day.

    • AB 22.1
      15 August 2020 at 4:40 pm

      Nice. A rosella and I eyeballed each other closeup through the lounge window – it was eating the last of the berries on the Melia tree. If I could have spoken Rosella I would have told it the Melia was OK, but stay away from the buds on the plum tree.

      And speaking of speaking Rosella, you have to go (of course) to Allen Curnow. From "The Parakeets (Para-Keats?) at Karekare":

      "Scarlet is a squawk, the green yelps, yellow is the tightest cord near snapping…"

  23. Stuart Munro 23
    15 August 2020 at 4:29 pm

    @Weka

    "stamping Covid-19 out of New Zealand is neither sustainable"

    Opinion.

    Lie. A thing is sustainable, or it is not – this is a matter of fact.

  24. Patricia Bremner 24
    15 August 2020 at 5:44 pm

    Good Luck to your loved one Whispering Kate. You have reminded me to feed our roses, and our bulbs are flowering as well. It was a hard frost followed by a brilliant day in Rotorua. Cheers.

    • Whispering Kate 24.1
      15 August 2020 at 8:58 pm

      Thank you Patricia. Yes we worry over our kids no matter how adult they are. There are many countries all over the world in a far worse state than we are and yet there are so many here who just cannot appreciate how better off we are here. Even our worse circumstances surely cannot not be worse than what countries like the US, UK India etc are experiencing. Thank the lord for technology and Facetime, skyping etc, its so easy to keep in touch.

      Good luck with your Spring garden. Its going to be a chilly overnight so hopefully we will get clear skies and sunshine tomorrow.

  25. McFlock 25
    15 August 2020 at 5:53 pm

    23k tests yesterday. Ten times as many as were tested on Monday.

    I wonder if they'll keep ramping up over the weekend.

  26. joe90 26
    15 August 2020 at 6:37 pm

    Sure..

    The managing director of Americold international says he can "completely rule out" any suggestion that Auckland's Covid-19 cluster was caused by freight from his Melbourne factory.

    Americold managing director Richard Winnall said the company's Melbourne site – which had two workers test positive for Covid-19 last month – has not shipped anything to Auckland for "months and months".

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12356825

    Americold Warehouse, Denver, CO: Workers at the Americold warehouse in Denver have raised concerns about the company’s failure to monitor social distancing, even while management has told them to keep six feet apart. In fear for this safety amid the pandemic, members of Teamsters Local 455 sent a letter to Americold explaining how the social distancing standard cannot be met and new measures needed to be put in place. The union also called for the facility to shut down following the first COVID case at the start of the pandemic. These requests continue to go unanswered.

    https://teamster.org/2020/06/teamsters-hold-national-food-supply-chain-day-of-action/

    • RedBaronCV 26.1
      15 August 2020 at 10:10 pm

      Outside possibility I guess that both sites where infected from the same third source. Worth a check -why not. The manager sounded plenty defensive though? What is it that they import??

  27. Muttonbird 27
    15 August 2020 at 6:44 pm


    This is so how I feel. About the "experts" particularly.

    • Anne 27.1
      15 August 2020 at 7:07 pm

      Yes, I'm starting to feel the same about the supposed experts. Fear mongering pr***s some of them. I'll stick with David Skegg and the lady with the pink hair (whose name I can't spell) and I’m sure there will be one or two other reliable scientists.

      • SPC 27.1.1
        15 August 2020 at 7:26 pm

        Spelling as with Banshee, look from NCIS lab.. Baker is fine. They'll react like the rest of us, if they think things could have been done better. I am having problems with Gorman though.

  28. Muttonbird 28
    15 August 2020 at 7:39 pm

    Farrar watch:

    Penguin is desperate to pin the outbreak on MIQ facilities and promotes the huge authoritarian government testing of well border-workers every week. Solely for political effect.

    Question: how does that sit with his normal view that people should be left alone to go about their business?

    It will be fascinating to hear JuCo's border policy announcement. Let's hope it's not written on a scrap piece of blue paper like her last announcement was.

    • SPC 28.1
      15 August 2020 at 9:15 pm

      Farrar has also listed nations that have delayed elections (while in 3-4 lockdown and really high infection rates) to oppose elections here at Level 2.

      Their Jekyll and Hyde routine requires a lot of cognitive dissonance

      1. more open borders more money when resulting greater infection leads to people isolating/less economic activity to stay safe.

      2. taking control of the borders with a better regime and also allow private providers in it to make money from those who want to jump the queue as if infection by rich people just does not happen.

      • PaddyOT 28.1.1
        15 August 2020 at 11:41 pm

        @ SPC!!! Your post in reply today 15/8 from last night's post on Daily Review, 14/8 is just viewed now by me; you having posted it earlier this morning.

        I bring this discussion here because you repeatedly keep scattering the same type contradictory comments all over the place to antagonise and take the piss out of people.

        The first of your sentences to me this morning (pretending you can't read) -:

        "Despite no eradication of Spanish flu, it no longer exists."
        You have two conflicting states in the one sentence – no longer exists but it is not eradicated.??

        Did you not read the links? Do you know why each virus develops its type name? If you do then use that knowledge.

        First, get over the 'Spanish' part of the identifier and 'the plague' as your other non-viral disease to falsely compare these together as being the proof of your point.

        You keep alternating to deliberately shit stir and confuse others. Further to not reading any links I'll add this.

        'Spanish' was the country of origin identifier at that time for the virus now identified as type A-H1N1's .
        ( Then explained in post and links on DR last night, through a more recent reconstruction experiment by scientists, the 'Spanish' on what is correctly named A-H1N1 was then an incorrect identifier )

        https://www.history.com/news/why-was-it-called-the-spanish-flu
        YES ! AGAIN, your 'Spanish flu' still exists; it is the virus type A-H1N1.
        H1N1 influenza-A virus strain subtype appeared again as the Swine flu in 2009 and here in NZ with 19 deaths.

        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_swine_flu_pandemic_in_New_Zealand
        There is an internationally accepted naming convention for influenza viruses.

        ——–‐'————-
        Onto your plague question now SPC

        'The plague' you keep using in your confused, comparitive discourse on SARS- CoV-2 – WHICH plague are you asking about ?
        The Bubonic Plague of 1720??? was caused by bacterium Yersinia pestis.
        (' Plague' was used for several different historic disease breakouts; the name "plague" similar to using today's expression of 'Pandemic' . You use it loosely as if it's an actual name when talking about current science developments.

        Second sentence of yours on DR 14/8, SPC, "Despite no eradication of plague has anyone in our country ever been infected treated for it?".

        Have you been itching lately and developing horrendous pus boils?

        You are truly NOT interested in the actual answer, are you?? Because you were being a smartass; you could have found your own answer.
        Again which plague are you referring to ??? Bubonic plague cases of this bacterium infection ( not a virus)Yersinia pestis still exist and are being treated.

        https://www.healthline.com/health-news/seriously-dont-worry-about-the-plague

        Onto SARS- CoV-2 which Rosemary was posting about today 15/8 and again you malevolently throw in this one off detractor to add to deriding her comment.

        "SPC There are 200 viruses that can cause the common cold."

        On OM today by different posters in which you SPC added to, the collective posts derided Rosemary as " fake news" then went on to potentially confusing myth creating.

        The conversation went like this-

        Comment A."Rosemary McDonald your claim the virus mutates so a vaccine won't work is fake news of the worst kind.
        Carona viruses do not mutate in the same way as the flu.
        The Carona virus's only mutates in minute ways.
        So it is easier to make one vaccine unlike seasonal flu's."

        Comment B. "Flu mutates even more readily and yet every year we manage to come up with a shot for that?"

        Comment C." Carona Viruses are closely related to the common cold which is very hard to make a vaccine for.
        With modern genome sequencing and powerful computers it is becoming easier and quicker to develop a vaccine."

        The total confusion then for the audience is all the different diseases thrown into one conversation-: influenza likened to corona virus,( not SARS- CoV-2 ) then to ' common colds'. That vaccines are hard and or easy to make is then assumed as fact; and confused in the mix, genome sequencing is added.
        ———————–

        I would like to suggest that the terminology of naming diseases is causing the confusion.

        " Corona virus" as the first confusing term. Which corona virus ? It is the catch all name of a wide taxanomy of multiple viruses that have a "corona" shape.

        ——————–

        Onto " influenza" . This term thrown in when Rosemary is trying to discuss what I understood to be today's pandemic of SARS- CoV-2. ( aka COVID19 )

        https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/disease-caused-by-the-novel-coronavirus-officially-has-a-name-covid-19/
        SARS- CoV-2 is NOT an influenza virus. The SAR acronym being viruses of the type drscribed as
        Severe Acute Respiratory syndrome. As a distinct disease SARS does not act on the human body, the lungs in particular, the way " influenza's " do.
        SARS-CoV(1) emerged in 2002. Hence a broader term " novel coronavirus " because it's NOT Influenza and not MERs.

        Finding a vaccine has NOT been "easy" nor believed to be an easier job, nor achieved for SARs disease emergence to date.
        Combating SARS- CoV-2 is an unknown still, even if a vaccine is found.
        So Rosemary was largely CORRECT in saying the virus does readily mutate and a vaccine was not going to be humanity's saviour.

        I believe her meaning as I read her post was that there is no 'cure' and hence a valid founded summation for her to make at this time.

        To deride all of her post over her word use of ' readily' at such an early stage of scientific knowledge of this " novel" virus is picky; Rosemary may well be right !
        That she is "fake news of the worst kind" was uncalled for.

        https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30484-9/fulltext
        ———————-

        Onto clearly distinguishing SARS- CoV-2 from multiple " Influenza " types when inferring with this comment
        " Flu mutates even more readily and yet every year we manage to come up with a shot for that?" .
        Sweeping vaccine development as being similar between SARS- CoV-2 and all " influenza " viruses is a disconcerting guess.
        https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/viruses/types.htmOf the differing types, Influenza A viruses are the only influenza virus types known to cause flu pandemics . Again, SARS- CoV-2 is NOT an influenza virus.

        ————————-
        The quote, " Carona Viruses are closely related to the common cold".

        Again, mixed up in proposing that vaccines are presumed to be easier to make for COVID19.

        Common colds are only some subtypes under the taxonomy of all coronaviruses because of a shape identifier, ie. being spiked, but not all have a related gene makeup or behaviour. Common colds do not do what SARS- CoV-2 does to the human body.

        The discussion from Rosemary was about COVID19 as intended by Treetops.
        This comment, "Carona Viruses are closely related to the common cold" was diminishing the information needed for important public understandings of acting safely.

        Myth: The virus is just a mutated form of the common cold.

        https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-myths.html
        ————————-
        Now to get me really perplexed and pissed at your scattering information SPC, you then add,

        Comment. "There are 200 viruses that can cause the common cold."

        How was that related to Rosemary's post or even related to her concerns about SARS- CoV-2 ?

        Then you added this other sidewinder-
        "That does not explain why so many young people died rather than older people – the immune system of healthy adults was triggered – “cytokine storm. "

        SPC, was this new found topic of yours just to press home the confusion of the other comments to ridicule people ?

  29. Fireblade 29
    15 August 2020 at 10:30 pm

    Wow!

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