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Open mike 15/10/2020

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 15th, 2020 - 115 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

115 comments on “Open mike 15/10/2020 ”

  1. bwaghorn 1

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/300132298/tax-the-wealthy-i-dont-think-so

    Turns out the French tried a wealth tax and guess what it didnt work .

    The wealthy dodged it .

    Let this dog of policy go .

  2. Dennis Frank 2

    Polls are oscillating but the race is tight:

    Internal Green Party polling provided to The Spinoff suggests that the massive number of advance votes are running against legalising cannabis, but it’s likely to be close. The poll, conducted between October 9-12, asked people if the election was held tomorrow how they would vote on the Cannabis Legalisation and Control bill.

    The poll did not ask any of the respondents how they had voted. However, out of the 1,286 people asked, 278 people said they had already voted. Of that second group, 50% said they did not support the bill, compared to 47% in favour. In the other group of 1,008 people who had not yet voted, 45% supported the bill, 41% were opposed, and 14% were undecided.

    The internal poll was conducted online using sample-weighting. https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/14-10-2020/poll-cannabis-green/

  3. Dennis Frank 3

    I think it's amusing that Collins keeps trying to scare voters off Labour by using the wealth tax – poll tonight will show if paranoia is that contagious. She needs a 5% shift.

    Had a bunch of commentators here yesterday riled by my reference to the tax being designed to help losers. Telling the truth seems non-pc to some. I just think they are being weak in yielding to that sociopathic attitude.

    Obviously the system was set up to divide the electorate into winners and losers: representative democracy has always been based on binary division and competition. The winner gets to be govt, the loser doesn't. The ruling class always wins, the lower class never wins. That's why Labour doesn't want the wealth tax. Wannabe winners.

    Trying to pretend that history never happened just makes those commentators delusional. They ought to spit the dummy & get real.

    • Ad 3.1

      Stop complaining and find a more popular policy.

    • Sacha 3.2

      Collins is trying to scare votes from Greens to Labour.
      And everyone else is wrong about you.

    • Pat 3.3

      the phrase 'winners and losers' disappeared (publicly) with Key….it was starting to have the opposite to its desired effect

    • Incognito 3.4

      Misrepresenting other commenters is not getting you any closer to the truth and is thus an act of delusion.

      Name-calling is your MO to lay down the truth as you see it and silence anybody who disagrees with you. Deliberately using language that rubs people the wrong way and demeans others is neither constructive nor inclusive, believing it so is delusional.

      Stubbornly sticking to your guns and putting your own truth above that of others is delusional and does not make for positive debate.

      This site encourages robust debate and your obtrusive commenting style and egotistic attitude are counter-productive.

  4. vto 4

    if we dont have a wealth tax

    does that mean

    we are left only with poor taxes?

    think about it

    reduce the poor taxes I say

    talk about the poor tax

    poor tax

    poor tax

    poor tax

    • Ad 4.1

      Oh horseshit.

      Our most regressive tax is GST. They could bring that back to 5%.

      The Greens insisting on this "discussion" is just pushing votes from them to Labour.

      • Sacha 4.1.1

        just pushing votes from them to Labour

        Yep, not strategic enough to see what Collins wants. Zipping it now would be the smart move.

      • You_Fool 4.1.2

        The Wealth Tax won't shift people from greens to labour, it has been around long enough that there would be a very small number of green supporters that don't like the wealth tax or what it represents. Talking it up by the Greens may pull more left voters from Labour to the Greens.

        Judith is trying to push some labour voters to NZF, but not too many (enough to take them to 4.95%), and thus wasting them. That drops labour to midish 40's, which may be close enough if Greens do dip under 5%

        Nothing about talking up the wealth tax by Greens or National drops the green vote

      • Adrian Thornton 4.1.3

        The optics of making the rich pay their fair share is what is important here, and it is the sort of optics that The Greens need to push harder…cos Labour sure as hell are not going to.

    • Treetop 4.2

      The game Monopoly has pay a poor tax but not pay a rich tax.

      The winner always ends up with all the properties as well.

      • mac1 4.2.1

        In the Sixties we played socialist Monopoly. At the end of the game, all profits were divided equally amongst all the players.

        We also played cards, gambling for money, and the winners were the ones who got the fast food in.

  5. Sanctuary 5

    Sweet Mary mother of Jesus, the Greens are such a fucking political liability.

    Would they kindly just STFU and stop constantly talking about their wealth tax TWO DAYS OUT FROM A POTENTIALLY HISTORIC CENTRE LEFT WIN?

    What a bunch of morons.

    Their ill-thought out and high handed approach to the anti-smacking legislation cost Labour nine years in opposition and by the look of things they haven't learnt a single thing.

    I hope Labour can govern alone and those political idiots in the Greens get to see their party drop below the threshold so they can spend three years thinking about how being a bunch of political dilettantes cost them their place in parliament.

    • Yes Sanctuary let us all just go along with Labour's steady as she goes asinine policies where the top 5% continue to hold more and more of the wealth while 235,000 kids are living in poverty.

      https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2020/10/11/new-zealand-elections-4/?fbclid=IwAR1B_srPjVuVDMsvLhDbS1q7QdlCxit16urBhl5yOo3DNlJRL-bRw6jNefo

      Labour's 39% tax on over $180k raises bugger all-$500m. The Greens' WT raises SIXTEEN times that to alleviate poverty-that is transformative. And 94% are totally unaffected by the WT.

      Personally I think the Green WT should be modified to target the top 4% rather than the top 6% but it is the Labour pro-establishment centrists who need to STFU.

      • Sacha 5.1.1

        Timing.

        • Bearded Git 5.1.1.1

          So a political party should keep quiet about its key policies during an election campaign Sacha. Brilliant; just brilliant.

          • Sacha 5.1.1.1.1

            Easily goaded?

          • Anne 5.1.1.1.2

            No Bearded Git.

            I'm not against some sort of wealth tax. Geez… just look what the wine-boxers got away with back in the 90s.

            But having made sure everyone knows they plan to push for such a tax – or a derivation of it – just shut up and stop giving Collins more opportunities to spread false information. All its doing is causing unnecessary panic among the voters.

            The Greens will be the losers because many voters are vulnerable to misinformation when they are lead to believe a policy is going to negatively affect them.

            Look at Trump Land.

            • Bearded Git 5.1.1.1.2.1

              Not sure if anyone is listening any more to the bollocks, sorry misinformation, that Collins is spouting. I guess we will find out on Saturday. The poll tonight may give us a pointer.

              • Anne

                Hope you're right but there's some pretty thick creatures out there who will believe anything.

              • Stuart Munro

                A few journalists have been repeating it, instead of doing their jobs. All over bar the shouting anyway – those who trust JC, or JA, are unlikely to change their minds in time absent a significant event.

            • Gabby 5.1.1.1.2.2

              A government serious about increasing tax revenue could do worse than to patch up some of the deliberately formed loopholes that let people pretend that they, or their money are really somewhere else.

          • weka 5.1.1.1.3

            I put up a post about it.

            About the Greens…

    • Cricklewood 5.2

      Why should they shut up? They're a political organization with their own policies that they believe will be to the betterment of NZ.

      Surely they aren't just there to be Labour lapdogs.

      • Sacha 5.2.1

        Timing.

        • McFlock 5.2.1.1

          OK, let's look at that.

          If JuCo goes berserk about communism and Labour tanks to, say, 46%, Labour would probably need the Greens, so more leverage for Green policies.

          Worst case, Labour get a boost from nats who are scared of Greens.

          If polling is at all relevant, a NACT government is an extremely slim possibility.

          If anything, with half of votes already cast, the Greens should have gone "People's Flag" a couple of weeks back and kept the momentum up, lol.

    • Ad 5.3

      Hey welcome back Sanctuary.

      Make sure you come along to the westie Labour party with me on Saturday night.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 5.4

      A centre-left win that delivers nothing (to be fair – will deliver a better outcome than more active wrecking by NAct)? We need to deal with corrosive inequality and child poverty – and we need to stop a handful of rich people controlling our government and society. The Green's wealth tax is a step in the right direction and creates discussion on what really needs to be fixed.

    • woodart 5.5

      yes, time the greens looked at the big picture, and that picture is, if you want change, you need power, to get power, you have to play the political game, which is, when you have a scab, someone else will pick it.

  6. Dennis Frank 6

    Trotter nails the conundrum looming: http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2020/10/lets-make-jacinda-break-her-promises.html

    In assembling her unbeatable electoral coalition, and holding it together, Jacinda has had to give an explicit promise not to enact the sort of urgent fiscal programme the country requires.

    This will be the new government’s dilemma. How to do what needs to be done without breaking its word, and without breaking up the cross-class alliance of voters that brought it to power.

    To overcome this dilemma, the prospective Labour-Green Government will have to devise some way of persuading its working-class, middle-class and ruling-class supporters to pursue change together.

    Creating a common-ground basis for a Labour-Green Government is an intellectual challenge in an era where intellectuals are deemed irrelevant. Muddling has pushed its way to the forefront of the political scrum. Common interests of those three classes? Players will be consternated. Eyes will glaze over. An heroic saga awaits…

    • Pat 6.1

      Creating the common ground goes hand in hand with political engagement…and we know the propensity to vote correlates with having something to lose.

    • Stuart Munro 6.2

      Common interests of those three classes?

      They're not keen on Covid – so they're united against a common enemy. But the reigning economic narrative of the last few decades has led them up the garden path.

      • Sacha 6.2.1

        Avoiding a violent revolution might be a common interest. Better a negotiated one if you face the prospect of your backs against the wall. And less messy and fatal all round for the rest of us.

        • Stuart Munro 6.2.1.1

          Poverty, for some, is violence already.

          The numbed sensibilities of the oligarchs that benefited from the great Rogergnomic ripoff cannot be protected forever – however desperately the liars trying to peddle it as success pretend otherwise.

      • Incognito 6.2.2

        Arguably, the ruling-class has benefitted from Covid. Home ownership doesn’t seem to have suffered much either.

        • Stuart Munro 6.2.2.1

          I imagine construction of new housing paused significantly with the lockdowns. Those with less than robust circumstances won't have saved much either.

    • WeTheBleeple 6.3

      Plenty of common interests, if you look at them from an individuals perspective.

      That my children get good education. That my housing is warm, dry, and affordable. That my water is clean. That my air is clean. That my food is healthy. That I have amenities to enjoy. That I have opportunity. That I have a place in my community.

      No class divide in that lot. Just that for some, much of the list is simply assumed.

      To be part of something greater than ourselves. Actual progress and working toward a better world. Only one class of people don't want that: they're called assholes. You can find assholes in trailer parks, leafy suburbs, and boardrooms.

      • Pat 6.3.1

        only one thing to disagree with there….the spelling of 'assholes'

        • WeTheBleeple 6.3.1.1

          I've always liked that version of the word as it has connotations of donkeys.

          According to Webster's it's correct.

          • Dennis Frank 6.3.1.1.1

            I could be wrong, but I always thought that was the american version of the english term (but both have currency here).

            I like your identification of common ground elements. Resonates as common sense, I suspect. Although people do say common sense ain't all that common these days… frown

          • Pat 6.3.1.1.2

            according to Websters it would be…but then Webster was a cowboy

    • Ad 6.4

      The main class problem is that the Greens get the great majority of their votes from central city Auckland and Wellington – the areas most affected by the Green wealth tax because of expensive housing.

      So Ardern signalling that the tax is dead on arrival is doing the Green voters in those areas a huge favour.

      And of course also signaling that the really rich will pay more tax. Which is as it should be.

      Other than that they want just slightly more than Labour on most things. It's going to be the easiest coalition discussion we've ever had.

      • Dennis Frank 6.4.1

        It's going to be the easiest coalition discussion we've ever had.

        yes Strikes me the numbers will hinge on the perception problem. No amount of calm dispassionate advocacy of the policy by James & Marama can prevail against the wilful reluctance of many in the target market to do the math.

        They presented well with Garner this morning. He's anti, but seemed respectful & quite muted in his sceptical questioning, and seemed to be listening.

  7. Stephen D 7

    If a Wealth Tax is a third rail option, what about a Land Tax?

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/118373157/should-new-zealand-just-tax-land

    • A Land Tax might be easier to gain acceptance for and implement than a Wealth Tax….though we could have both.

      The problem is the farmers who have a lot of land that, while it is much much less valuable per hectare than Ponsonby, a LT would arguably unfairly impinge on them and their profits. A lower rate for land above (say) 20 hectares in size might be the solution.

      • Adrian 7.1.1

        Exactly BG. Most agricultural land is valued at a far higher rate than its income generating value. It's value in NZ is often dictated by it's desirability as very wealthy persons bolthole. A Land Tax on a sheep or beef farmer could be many times ( to be worth collecting ) its real income so is counter productive if forcing on-sale to someone who really doesn't give a shit about about a 1 or2 % tax.

        A lot, lot more work goes into the implications of taxes than wish fulfilment, just look at Piggy's dopey booze fueled reactionary tax ideas in the early 80s. His 20% tax on "luxury" NZ made goods that he plucked out of his arse proves the point. A lot of businesses went under and it failed to bring in anything because it killed the producers off including my own small boat building one. In fact it cost him money in higher unemployment. What he failed to realise was that the vast amount of customers were ordinary working class grafters saving a little bit a week to own a boat or home built car kit. They just said "Fuck you Piggy "and didn't buy anything

        The last thing you want is a Land Tax that leads to even faster corporate ownership of our productive land.

        • Bearded Git 7.1.1.1

          Agreed Adrian…farming is a major contributor to the economy (unlike rising house prices) and needs to be fostered, sustainably of course.

        • Tricledrown 7.1.1.2

          Land taxes lead to better use of land as those who are land banking have to make an income to pay the tax.That would help urban land use but farming is very cyclical with no guaranteed income from year to year a Capital gains tax would be a better way of land tax for rural farming to become more productive and profitable .

          But you would need to reduce income taxes by an equivalent amount for these type of taxes to be accepted.

          • Bearded Git 7.1.1.2.1

            CGT is very complicated to implement and the income raised is unpredictable.

            • Graeme 7.1.1.2.1.1

              CGT is very complicated to implement and the income raised is unpredictable.

              That goes for any new tax.

              All the 'easy' taxes are in place already, and those that aren't are because they are very complicated to implement and the income raised is unpredictable.

              At least with a CGT you have an objective transaction to buy the asset and another to sell it. Where it gets complicated is deductions for expenses incurred between buying and selling, so privately held assets have to be treated like a business which gets into a huge can of worms.

              Wealth taxes are completely subjective, and dependant on market conditions at the time. How do you value a business that could be overtaken by a new idea tomorrow, especially smaller businesses that are totally dependant on the owner's skills and knowledge. The art market verges on a scam and even property and shares are only a loss of confidence away from their value becoming meaningless.

            • Andre 7.1.1.2.1.2

              The records and paperwork needed for a CGT are very similar to what is required for a wealth tax. But for a CGT you only need to sort it out and file it when you sell a liable asset which would be a rare event for most, whereas for the proposed wealth tax you would need to do it all every. single. fucking. year.

              • Graeme

                Yeah, and you'll be going through that valuation and return process every year from a point well below the threshold to prove you don't owe anything. And with the complexities of valuing businesses and art, probably requiring professional input, so a good addition to your costs for very little, if any tax paid.

              • I can see that you are warming towards a WT Andre. At least it has boosted the Greens profile to 8% (9.5% in Roy Morgan). Some people obviously like it.

                A Land Tax is probably the easiest option to administer, with predictable and high revenue outcomes. Lower LT rates would be needed for genuine farming operations above 20 hectares.

                Does this work for you Andre?

          • Stuart Munro 7.1.1.2.2

            The thing would be to implement CGT in stages – on housing, on small businesses, on farming, on trading and investment.

            The complexities of each area not compromising the approach to others, so that small businesses are not taxed on goodwill they have developed, but are on land value appreciation for instance. Dividing the introduction would also divide the opposition to the tax, and let the public consider the issues in more detail.

        • mikesh 7.1.1.3

          It's value in NZ is often dictated by it's desirability as very wealthy persons bolthole.

          This suggests that a risk-free-rate-of-return tax as suggested by Gareth Morgan could be appropriate – perhaps, but not necessarily, alongside a much lower land tax.

      • Gabby 7.1.2

        Exempt agricultural land then. Limit it to res and comm zoned.

        • Bearded Git 7.1.2.1

          I think you would find that plenty of one hectare lifestyle lots would suddenly be growing a few onions and peaches and claiming agricultural status.

          • Adrian 7.1.2.1.1

            Exactly what I mean than more complicated and intricate than wish fulfilment would have you believe. For every clever or mostly not so clever bugger devising taxes there are 10 more working on getting around it. Simplicity is key.

            Say what you like about Roger Douglas but when he was questioned about GST on food he said that he upped the benefits by the amount of GST on essentials but he had been to enough dinner parties in Remuera where the food cost $500 ( read $1500 today ) so fuck'em they can pay.

          • Gabby 7.1.2.1.2

            Can I change my zoning by growing vege?

  8. Herodotus 8

    A very cleavour and articulate person on a very dangerous topic – And I do recommend all watch this

    "Without aid from a teleprompter, he explains to whites that their privilege isn’t "saying your life hasn’t been hard – it’s saying your skin color hasn’t contributed to the difficulty."

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2020/06/05/emmanuel-acho-viral-video-george-floyd-eagles-texas-sam-white-black/3152632001/

    • Stuart Munro 8.1

      One needs to be a little careful generalizing from the US to NZ – there is significant employer prejudice against kiwis here – access to cheap exploitable foreign labour has made it abundant.

    • I Feel Love 8.2

      just an aside, and curious this keeps popping up, https://newsone.com/3785854/stereotype-black-people-articulate-obama-cleveland-councilman-kevin-conwell/amp/

      ​​​​I'm sure it's an unconscious thing and I can't be bothered arguing with RL again but it needs repeating as it gets noticed. Rock on!

      • Herodotus 8.2.1

        I may have read you comments wrong if so excuse.me. What I meant was that this topic is so divisive and to hear anyone articulate these so well and thoughtfully with passion – It moved me and brought me to understanding and counter what has been peddled from those "against" this e.g. The counter to "All/White lives also matter" and why an African American can use Negr* and why others shouldn't and not even sing along using it. And I was first made aware of Emmanuel from a ESPN doco on American Football.

        • gsays 8.2.1.1

          Cheers Herodotus, that is the best 9 minutes I have had in a long time.

          Why not using the n word, white privilege, BLM… lotsa learnings.

  9. Pat 9

    Judith Collins just interviewed on RNZ (will be available online in about 30 mins)….I have never heard a candidate forPM with so much ill informed vague policy 'reckons' in my life…think it safe to conclude that Nationals 'plan' is minimal involvement and oversight of the NZ economy and let the chips fall where they may.

    I'm alright Jack personified

  10. Pat 10

    "Is this yet another example of Judith being 'less than honest'?"

    Is she ever anything else?

    • Patricia Bremner 10.1

      How did that advert start? "Let me be straight with you" Lol Lol haha really Judith?

      Too little too late!!

  11. Well looks like we can say goodbye to Labour focusing on training locals and demanding that companies have concrete plans to hire and train locals.

    Border exemptions for several hundred machinery drivers and 500 hundred fishing boat crew. The fishing industry has made a promise to:

    In return, the industry has promised to remove barriers to employing New Zealanders.

    Where is the plan not just an empty promise – or didn't Labour insist on one.

    These are visas for close to a 1000 adult jobs.

    https://www.ruralnewsgroup.co.nz/rural-news/rural-general-news/the-calvary-arrives-finally

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/123082031/russians-jet-in-to-save-new-zealands-beleaguered-deepsea-fishing-industry

    [Fixed errors in e-mail address]

    • Stuart Munro 11.1

      The barriers are the industry themselves.

      Fishing used to be a widespread occupation with considerable operator independence. The QMS, aside from having no merit as resource protection, granted a monopoly to quota holders, chiefly three or four companies, who exercise disproportionate power over the lives of their workers. Ostensibly independent contractors (to allow the companies to sidestep ACC), kiwi employees nevertheless can't even have a can of beer at the end of a shift, because it does not suit the whims of the oligarchs.

      As for the slave fishermen – any pretense of progressive values by government is auto-debunked by them.

    • Cinny 11.2

      Okay, so with the fishing industry, vessels have to carry crew with certain qualifications who have done a certain amount of sea time in order to sail, especially on deep sea trawlers. Sure factory staff don't have to be qualified, but all the officers do.

      Nelson has the only fishing school in NZ, it takes years to get qualifications for certain sea going roles.

      Sealord have used and exploited foreign crew for years. Iwi are responsible for those decisions and for not using local workers. Sealord is half owned by Iwi and half owned by offshore interests. 20 yrs ago the exhusband worked as an officer on Sealord vessels, even he was surprised at the time of the amount of foreign workers onboard.

      • greywarshark 11.2.1

        There was an attempt last century to open up places for Maori by having a quota of trainees to be Maori which was being encouraged by government. When Nelson Polytechnic tried to do this they were threatened with a legal challenge by Sanford. So the big companies were not encouraging the participation of Maori in fishing as was hoped for. The challenge was against reverse discrimination I think it was called. I felt that Sanfords felt that Maori were being advantaged and wanted to put a stop to it.

    • Adrian 11.3

      Used to be that you only got a job on a fishing boat if the cops were after you. Another job that Kiwis don't really want to do.

      • RedBaronCV 11.3.1

        you missed the end of the sentence – at the dreadful wages and conditions offered.

        Time to stop discrimination against New Zealand employees and Labour should have extracted a decent plan out of the companies to replace the labour force with kiwis . Starting this summer.

      • Stuart Munro 11.3.2

        You must be joking – plenty of folk never wanted to do anything else.

  12. Jilly Bee 12

    Wow, Aussie 'journalist' Greg Sheridan certainly has a bee in his bonnet – is he simply bitter and twisted, harbouring a bad hangover, or perhaps he's part of ScoMo's comms team. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2020-australian-columnist-greg-sheridan-criticises-jacinda-ardern-as-shabby-fraudulent/LCQMA6LQGXRPR5CFAEJCOVNQBQ/

    • Prickles 12.1

      He's a Murdoch man through and through. Almost even too right wing for many Aussies.

      • Jilly Bee 12.1.1

        Thanks for that Prickles – it had occurred to me after posting that he could well be a Murdoch man. Sensitive wee sausage.

    • RedBaronCV 12.2

      Some one is a little upset there. The right wing are feeling threatened?

      What it is telling us is that the RW fear that Jacinda now she has the space will go for bolder policies and show that the neo lib settings are basically stuffed. At which point countries like Australia and the Uk may be wanting more of what we have.

    • Gabby 12.3

      Shedders invented a halo just so he could take potshots at it. Why can't she be a petball like our ScMofo?

  13. AB 13

    I am inherently lazy and enjoy successes that I could easily surpass if I tried harder. And yet, I feel that merely not having Judith Collins as PM, feels like setting the bar at a subterranean level.

  14. Pat 14

    another 150k voted yesterday…now total 1,565,421

  15. observer 15

    The new Morgan poll will have a very short shelf life … overtaken by 6 pm today

    But anyway – usual caveats, minor parties over-rated, scroll down for the real story: confidence rating. No mood for change.

    http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/8543-nz-national-voting-intention-september-2020-202010142349

    • ianmac 15.1

      Thanks for that Observer. As far as I can tell no government has moved up from the early 60% Confidence – until this year with this Government in the 70% range. Thanks for pointing that out as well.

  16. Gabby 16

    Auckland University certainly doing right by their Vice Chancellor, 5 mill for a superior Parnell house, 1 thou a week in rent. They'll be pretty keen to get those foreign students back in I guess.

  17. greywarshark 17

    Saw this book on trademe bwaghorn and wondered if you had read it.

    Its called – Dining with the cats: An autobiography of a farm worker.

    He's spent a lot of time in the high country.

    https://www.trademe.co.nz/books/nonfiction/new-zealand/listing-2817458925.htm?rsqid=rmlwn-59d65d243f5b4b408c197b976c28ac63-001

  18. sumsuch 18

    An uncareful strong argument for reality can cruise for many a long mile through the bullsh fictive the strong rely on to manufacture consent to them.

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