Open mike 15/06/2015

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1. Paul 1

   15 June 2015 at 6:52 am

   The Pope makes a stand on climate change and poverty
   ‘Pope Francis will call for an ethical and economic revolution to prevent catastrophic climate change and growing inequality in a letter to the world’s 1.2 billion Catholics on Thursday.’
   Maybe the Catholics in our government might listen.

   http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/13/pope-francis-intervention-transforms-climate-change-debate
   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11465154
   • Draco T Bastard 1.1

     15 June 2015 at 9:04 am

     Maybe the Catholics in our government might listen.

     Unlikely. Probably more likely to be this type of reaction:

     The chairman of the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee is telling Pope Francis to stay out of the ongoing debate over global warming.

     “Everyone is going to ride the pope now. Isn’t that wonderful,” Sen. James Inhofe, Oklahoma Republican, said Thursday, according to the Guardian. “The pope ought to stay with his job, and we’ll stay with ours.”

     A few moments later, Mr. Inhofe said: “I am not going to talk about the pope. Let him run his shop, and we’ll run ours.”

     Capitalists and other RWNJs tend to dislike it when people tell them that they’re wrong and will thus ignore what they’ve been told.
2. vto 2

   15 June 2015 at 7:05 am

   Did John Key sleep in a warm and insulated home last night?

   What about Nick Smith?
   • David H 2.1

     15 June 2015 at 10:08 am

     Yes they did. Like every other night, either in their own beds, or nice warm hotel beds, that we the taxpayer paid for.
3. One Anonymous Bloke 3

   15 June 2015 at 7:17 am

   That’s right Phil, it’s all about property values. *headdesk*
   • maui 3.1

     15 June 2015 at 10:37 am

     Housing New Zealand spokesperson: “Where appropriate, Housing New Zealand’s policy is to sell high value properties in order to reinvest proceeds into more housing for those most in need.”

     An outright lie. If they sold 443 state houses in 2014 then where are those replacements?
     • Tracey 3.1.1

       15 June 2015 at 1:09 pm

       or the 443 existing state houses out of action due to low quality which have been upgraded and let?
     • Sacha 3.1.2

       15 June 2015 at 1:20 pm

       Proceeds gobbled up by the dividend demand from govt.
   • just saying 3.2

     15 June 2015 at 11:42 am

     The problem with the Labour Party in a nutshell.
     This is what they see. This is who they are.
     Is there anything that can be done about the situation? Seems hopeless to me right now.
4. ScottGN 4

   15 June 2015 at 7:53 am

   Anyone else get the impression the Prime Minister was lying through his teeth just now on Morning Report?
   • te reo putake 4.1

     15 June 2015 at 7:56 am

     Yep! Still pretending that the boat was heading to NZ and offering no evidence to back it up.
   • wyndham 4.2

     15 June 2015 at 8:29 am

     If I had found it possible to interpret that barely coherent mumble from Key, then perhaps I could judge whether or not he was lying. It’s always the same with our PM – – – if he hasn’t been primed by his minders then he’s just a superb example of how to say absolutely nothing. The interview with Espiner this am. was worse than usual. If that’s possible.
   • Arthur 4.3

     15 June 2015 at 8:47 am

     Great sergeant Schultz imitation.
   • halfcrown 4.4

     15 June 2015 at 9:48 am

     Remember that well known saying:-

     When can you tell when Key is lying?
     When he opens his mouth.
   • Skinny 4.5

     15 June 2015 at 11:04 am

     And those lies are going to get bigger by Key, English, Joyce and the other Nat cronies.

     The true bite of a plummeting commodities based economy is just starting to show. The tax take is crap and Government debt out of control. I am half expecting the top 3 nat rats to do a bunk.
     • Gosman 4.5.1

       15 June 2015 at 12:41 pm

       Yet not a peep from the opposition suggesting this is the case. Seems our opposition must be complicit in this deceipt.
5. AsleepWhileWalking 5

   15 June 2015 at 8:37 am

   Headline says it all

   http://investmentwatchblog.com/netherlands-close-eight-prisons-due-to-lack-of-criminals/
   • emergency mike 5.1

     15 June 2015 at 8:22 pm

     Gutting for the Netherlands. Good thing our cannabis laws continue to protect our emerging privatized prisons industry.
6. Tiger Mountain 6

   15 June 2015 at 8:38 am

   well the PM uses a “burner” phone like all sensible crims, and his staff have used private email accounts to conduct government business, so lying is de rigueur for the Nats
7. Don't worry. Be happy 7

   15 June 2015 at 9:01 am

   Just listened to John Key on Radio NZ. All his usual lying techniques clearly on display…..frequent hesitation, long sentences that wandered around looking for some kind of meaning (unsucessfully) much teeth sucking and heavy reliance on building the well worn the excuse he intends to use when the shit really hits the fan ‘No one told me’. As usual. Our PM ladies and gentlemen, Bart Simpson Conclusion….NZ Government and this means its PM knew that the Abbott Government paid the people smugglers. Clear as a bell. Time to finish off National Radio, Key….you damn yourself out of your own mouth….and we are listening.
8. Ray Raefrancis 8

   15 June 2015 at 9:19 am

   I can understand Labour being concerned at losses caused by selling State houses at under their Council Valuation and the very principal but because it will bring house values down
   Get a grip
   You can’t have it both ways, whinning about to expensive housing and then this

   [Have removed the public display of your email in ‘Name’ field.] – Bill
   • Lanthanide 8.1

     15 June 2015 at 11:28 am

     It depends entirely on who the houses are being sold to, doesn’t it? I expect you would say that selling them to landlords wouldn’t be acceptable.

     It also depends on what they’re doing with the proceeds of the sales.

     If the houses are being sold to owner-occupiers, and with some clause preventing them from being on-sold for 2 years, then that is good.

     If the proceeds from the sale were being used to build/buy/renovate more existing HNZ stock, then that is also good.

     But what we have here is no guarantee on either of these points. So it’s not a case of “wanting it both ways”, it’s a case of wanting it “done properly”. Try and understand all of the issues at stake here and you might understand the views of the left when it comes to government schemes like this.
9. Sirenia 9

   15 June 2015 at 11:07 am

   Tax academic writes a lot of sense about National Super and why we are so mean to the under 65 beneficiaries
   http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/69348442/new-zealand-superannuation-the-facts-and-the-fiction
10. Ovid 10

    15 June 2015 at 11:42 am

    Today marks the 800th anniversary of the Magna Carta, which introduced habeas corpus and the idea that governmental authority can be limited by fundamental rights. Let’s hope our generation is not the one to let that ancient flame go out. It’s been flickering far too much, lately.
11. Penny Bright 11

    15 June 2015 at 12:43 pm

    Fran Wilde rolled as Wellington’s regional council deals with supercity fallout

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/69376888/fran-wilde-rolled-as-wellingtons-regional-council-deals-with-supercity-fallout

    The fallout from Wellington’s super-city rejection is rocking the regional council, with chairwoman Fran Wilde resigning amid accusations of bullying

    Wilde quit as chairwoman on Saturday after being presented with a letter of no confidence signed by nine of her councillors. Only Paul Swain, Chris Laidlaw and Judith Aitken did not sign.

    The group that rolled Wilde, led by councillor Prue Lamason, told Wilde her advocacy for amalgamation had led to a “climate of tension and mistrust” between Greater Wellington and the region’s local councils.

    Prue Lamason..

    The coup was sparked by a new regional reorganisation plan drafted without regional councillors’ knowledge, and revealed by Wilde to a select few last week, Lamason said. Wilde was a major supporter of a region-wide amalgamation proposal scrapped by the Local Government Commission on Tuesday.

    In “Plan B” Wilde recommended the transfer of major functions from local councils to the regional body, including roading, water, and economic development.

    “That was the straw that broke the camel’s back. I am gobsmacked, boggled,” Lamason said.

    “Our first submission made it look like we had boxing gloves on. Plan B makes us look like we’ve still got boxing gloves on, and now we’re kickboxing as well.”

    The regional council’s very existence was threatened by alternative models, including a Wellington City Council proposal to create three smaller unitary bodies without a regional council, Lamason said.

    “It could end up in the demise of the regional council … We need to make an attempt to mend the fences and mend the relationships.”

    Wilde had verbally steamrolled anybody who opposed her on amalgamation, which amounted to a culture of bullying, Lamason said.
    ……
    ______________________________________________________________________________________

    Penny Bright

    http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz
12. weka 12

    15 June 2015 at 1:05 pm

    James Shaw’s Q and A on Facebook this morning,

    https://www.facebook.com/JamesShawMP/posts/1613907755524198
    • Tracey 12.1

      15 June 2015 at 1:11 pm

      So far, very strong on climate change, so the Right and/or media spreading the notion that he is a soft Green is laughable.
      • weka 12.1.1

        15 June 2015 at 2:06 pm

        Yep, and reading what he actually says, he’s a committed Green from way back, because of the environment.
      • Charles 12.1.2

        15 June 2015 at 2:46 pm

        Facebook highlights…

        Pete Huggins:
        You’re in a desert walking along in the sand when all of the sudden you look down, and you see a tortoise, it’s crawling toward you. You reach down, you flip the tortoise over on it’s back and you see it has the face of Judith Collins. The tortoise lays on it’s back, it’s belly baking in the hot sun, beating it’s legs trying to turn it’self over, but it can’t, not without your help. But you’re not helping. Why is that?
        11 · 3 hrs

        James Shaw:
        You make up these questions, Mr. Huggins, or do they write ’em down for you?

        Apparently the reply to this question proves J.Shaw is not a cyborg of the Blade Runner type, which is always good to know, since no one knows who or what John Key is, not even John Key.
        • Stephanie Rodgers 12.1.2.1

          15 June 2015 at 8:23 pm

          I don’t want to be tooooooo pedantic but technically James’ answer means he is a replicant. But I think he was in on the joke 😛
13. Chris 13

    15 June 2015 at 1:55 pm

    Wilde’s plotting her return to politics via the National Party list.
    • Philip Ferguson 13.1

      15 June 2015 at 2:07 pm

      Chris, is this just a rumour, or is there actual evidence? (It wouldn’t surprise me at all, but it would be good to have some actual evidence.)

      Phil
14. Philip Ferguson 14

    15 June 2015 at 2:06 pm

    Can robots and artificial intelligence serve humanity?
    https://rdln.wordpress.com/2015/06/09/can-robots-and-artificial-intelligence-serve-humanity/

    At the same time, it’s a pointer to how crappy the capitalist system is that things that save human beings working time are used to make people unemployed and create new poverty instead of being used to cut working time while keeping everyone in jobs and still well-paid.

    Indeed, what a comment on capitalism that with all these brilliant technological developments we are working longer hours than we were 50 years ago without being any better off. In fact, a great many are worse off.

    Whatever happened to the leisure society – https://rdln.wordpress.com/2012/04/03/whatever-happened-to-the-leisure-society/

    Capitalism and the tyranny of time: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2014/10/03/capitalism-and-the-tyranny-of-time/

    Low pay, longer hours and less social mobility – welcome to 21st century NZ capitalism: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/low-pay-longer-hours-and-less-social-mobility/

    Phil
    • weka 14.1

      15 June 2015 at 2:13 pm

      anyone who thinks AI is a good idea hasn’t read enough science fiction 😉

      Huge ethical and appropriate science issues, and look at how well we handle those kinds of thing already.
      • marty mars 14.1.1

        15 June 2015 at 5:11 pm

        If AI occurs then we will be crushed like we crush insects.
15. Philip Ferguson 15

    15 June 2015 at 2:49 pm

    The problem isn’t AI; it’s capitalism.

    Imagine if we were back 120 years ago. Would you oppose the invention and production of motorised vehicles (cars, buses etc) and aeroplanes, simply because of the misuses to which capitalism would put them?

    There is lots of technology that is potentially harmful in a number of ways in the context of capitalism but which is potentially brilliant if we had a society based on all of us making all the important decisions and producing on the basis of meeting human need.

    Socialists used to be supporters of science and technology, not fear mongers. We need to reclaim the old spirit of rationalism and science.

    Phil
    • weka 15.1

      15 June 2015 at 3:26 pm

      Maybe. Or maybe once human societies get above a certain size it’s impossible to put ethics ahead of development. Plenty of unethical behaviour exists outside of capitalism.

      I’m not anti science, and I find the supporters/vs fearmongers meme tiresome tbh.

      And yes, we would have been much better off without cars, and climate change, irrespective of what political/economic system developed them.

      Just because we can do something clever with science doesn’t mean we should.
    • Charles 15.2

      15 June 2015 at 4:48 pm

      “Imagine if we were back 120 years ago. Would you oppose the invention and production of motorised vehicles (cars, buses etc) and aeroplanes, simply because of the misuses to which capitalism would put them?”

      Yep, I would.
      So I’m back 1895 and someone says, “Hey Charles, you can see the future, should we go into mass production of these new fangled horseless carriages?”
      And I’d say,
      “Nup, nothing but trouble. You think it’s bad now with people being run over by buggies, wait till Honda makes cheap cars for everyone. No more cobblestone streets, whole villages die, skylines full of motorway over-passes, people drive hundreds of miles to see the sunset rather than talk to their neighbours, can’t see to the next hill because of benzine distillate vapours… and mechanised nations go to war to secure enough fuel… don’t do it man.”
      “Motor way over passes? What’s that?”
      “Huge great bridges to nowhere in the sky”
      “Sweet Jesus, tis the work of Satan!”
16. McFlock 16

    15 June 2015 at 3:22 pm

    Hmmm.

    A decent evolution in 3d printing might have occurred. Apologies if others have already mentioned it.

    Uses a 2d image to solidify each layer at once, rather than a print head that takes forever, ” complex solid parts can be drawn out of the resin at rates of hundreds of millimeters per hour”. Even just 100mm/hr means a personalised cellphone cover can be printed in less than five minutes.

    Of course, we’d be buggered by even more plastic waste, but…
    • weka 16.1

      15 June 2015 at 3:28 pm

      At this stage in the game I’d rate personalised cellphone covers as extremely low on the priority list for humans and tech.
      • McFlock 16.1.1

        15 June 2015 at 3:44 pm

        well, maybe someone will need something about that size at a priority level you approve of. Or slightly larger but with a production time in minutes not days.
        • weka 16.1.1.1

          15 June 2015 at 3:57 pm

          So you think this is about my personal likes rather than real world problems?
          • McFlock 16.1.1.1.1

            15 June 2015 at 4:19 pm

            Actually, I think “this” is more about a randomly-chosen example being jumped on in pure isolation while ignoring literally every other part of the comment that was made.

            But if you want to turn it into a big debate about how the end is nigh, you might also want to consider the impact of local production at a meaningful level rather than having everything made by slave labour in China and the byproducts dumped in their waterways, an impact including but not restricted to a drastic reduction in inventory storage and packaging requirements.

            No longer 50 widgets and 30 grommets in each shelf in each store in each town, all individually encased in transparent molded packages. Just barrels of raw material to refill the machine like a water cooler, to make sprockets, widgets and caboodles.
            • weka 16.1.1.1.1.1

              15 June 2015 at 5:24 pm

              Sure, I understand the value of 3D printing, and that part of your point is well made. You picked a daft example that’s all. We’re past the point now of being able to discuss things outside of the contexts of what’s happening in the world. This is getting a bit whatever, but I thought my response fitted with the direction of the conversation that Philip brought up, but hey ho.
              • McFlock …

                15 June 2015 at 5:35 pm

                Copy that. We’re not allowed cellphone covers any more. Admittedly, that means more cellphones will break when dropped, but whatever. I forgot for one instant that we’re all fucked but we should still growing neckbeards and build barns to soundtracks composed by Maurice Jarre.

                I agree: whatever.
                • weka …

                  15 June 2015 at 5:42 pm

                  🙄 You’re the one that pointed out the plastics issue.
                  • McFlock …

                    15 June 2015 at 6:48 pm

                    Indeed. I covered a plus and a minus that might result from an order-of-magnitude evolution in a developing production system that was the focus of my entire comment.

                    But you managed to see right past all that because you personally don’t think cellphone covers are a priority. Whatever.
17. Philip Ferguson 17

    15 June 2015 at 3:27 pm

    Mystifying the ‘value chain’:

    A pervasive economic euphemism is ‘the value chain’. This neatly glides over what is meant by ‘value’ and simply notes, as far as statistics allow, how much each part of the initial development, production and marketing of the overall cycle takes of the final selling price of the good that is sold.

    The overwhelming lesson is this. . .

    full at: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2015/06/14/mystifying-the-value-chain/

    Phil
    • Ad 17.1

      15 June 2015 at 4:46 pm

      The “value chain” you illustrate has cold lessons no matter where ones politics lies.

      New Zealand, just as much as Australia, is now paying the price of an extractive economy that invests much in bulk commodity manufacturing.

      Fonterra, New Zealand’s largest international company and exporter by a country mile, is also the largest investor into R&D across our entire food and beverage sector. Yet even they – by shareholder direction – cannot break out of the commodity manufacturing trap.

      Worth checking out the 2014 MBIE report that provides our first comprehensive survey of all sectors of the New Zealand economy.
18. wyndham 18

    15 June 2015 at 4:21 pm

    Food for thought from Brian Easton over at Pundit:

    http://pundit.co.nz/content/what-is-left-for-the-left-0
19. Ad 19

    15 June 2015 at 5:06 pm

    Covering off Brian Easton’s points:

    Globalisation:
    The left’s core promise that its humanist principles would spread and be underpinned by the formation of the United Nations after WWII was first undone by the inability of strong nation-states to give up sovereignty, and now undone by conservative Islam rising with ownership of oil production.

    Bureaucracy:
    In all but a few perpetually failed states, society is now sufficiently regulated to dampen real breakthrough protests. Even in post-GFC hit Spain, gains are won through the ballot box, not by revolution. The state evolves far faster and with greater skill than ever before.

    Climate change/sustainability:
    The issue has been too slow-burn for a broad resistance to our current global governing orders to evolve into power. It’s getting there. It’s no substitute for the great inter-war reform movements, yet.

    Diversity and representation:
    For the most part, modern states have absorbed such critiques, reformed its representative machinery, and sucked the energy from such movements. For us here, MMP has been a great ideological cooling mechanism; its absorbent capacity is so strong.

    We’re definitely in the purge cycle of the great long wave binge-purge cycle of utopian thought. Our bad luck.
    The next great generation of the left may not be in our lifetime, but Easton’s oblique point is that these waves really do happen. Even the NZHerald this morning said, essentially, Labour will be back.
20. b waghorn 20

    15 June 2015 at 5:32 pm

    http://i.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/69407785/NZ-agrees-to-join-divisive-Asian-Infrastructure-Investment-Bank
    Sounds like the nats have been lining them selves up another gravy train job for themselves post politics.
21. the pigman 21

    15 June 2015 at 6:29 pm

    A beautiful piece of writing on carers and the emotional landscape of being one by poet/writer/friend Kirsti Whalen published on The Wireless describes her teenage years spent caring for her terminally ill mum and more generally touches on how little credit we give carers in NZ:

    http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/caring-when-there-s-no-one-else-to-help

    I am describing it poorly but her writing is excellent.
22. David Garrett 22

    15 June 2015 at 8:03 pm

    I understand this is The Standard’s equivalent of “General Debate” (one of your many moderators will no doubt correct me if I’m wrong…wouldnt want to break any rules) wherein one may discuss any topic….

    I was most interested in a post over at my usual haunt which quotes Chris Trotter opining that Labour is “finished”…I was even more interested in reading what the Standardistas thought about his view…Imagine my surprise when I checked over here and found…nothing! A deafening silence…

    I wonder why? I understand Trotter published his piece on Friday, 72 hours or more ago. Has Trotter been banned here? Are the Politburo still meeting to decide what the appropriate response is?

    Can someone help me out?….Thanks very much in anticipation.
    • vto 22.1

      15 June 2015 at 8:05 pm

      What do you think it means mr smartypants?
    • te reo putake 22.2

      15 June 2015 at 8:07 pm

      Who is Chris Trotter again? And why do you think he might be relevant, David?
    • the pigman 22.3

      15 June 2015 at 8:09 pm

      Ahahahaha! *snort*

      And they say the Left are conspiracy theorists!

      You are a dense, dense little man. Standardistas are forever expressing the exact same view as Trotter… if you weren’t such a lazy/inept tr011, you would see that for yourself.

      Get a life, David Garrett. Preferably not one stolen from a dead baby, either.
      • Chooky 22.3.1

        15 June 2015 at 10:21 pm

        lol…+100…”Standardistas are forever expressing the exact same view as Trotter…”….and who cares what Trotts thinks?…It is changeable
    • mickysavage 22.4

      15 June 2015 at 8:10 pm

      Dear David

      Reports of Labour’s demise have been greatly exaggerated.

      With the party polling at 31% things could improve.

      It always amuses me when people such as yourself and Pete George who have transformed small parties into micro parties engage in such puerile behaviour.
    • Draco T Bastard 22.5

      15 June 2015 at 8:23 pm

      IIRC, Trotter’s expunge was mentioned on OM a few days ago. Most of us noted it and moved on. The fact is that you missed the total irrelevance that that particular diatribe has for us.

      And you came close to, if not actually breaking, at least one rule there. I suggest you read them again, perhaps get someone better at English than you to explain what the words mean.
    • Stephanie Rodgers 22.6

      15 June 2015 at 8:25 pm

      It’s really weird, right, but sometimes, The Standard’s authors don’t compulsively read and respond directly to everything Chris Trotter says.

      Hell, I don’t even read and respond to everything that’s posted here.
      • lprent 22.6.1

        15 June 2015 at 10:16 pm

        I usually see Chris at least once a month when I have a beer with him after work on a Friday. The only thing that is unusual is that there is a pub with good beer in the right place so I run into him. I don’t think I have ever had that with any of the authors because they are scattered around the country.

        With Chris, we sometimes agree a bit. We seldom disagree a lot. We sometimes disagree a lot. But there is a interesting dialogue that goes on.

        Just like here.

        //—

        But David Garret – you have to remember that Chris jumped out of the Labour party into New Labour about the time that I started to get active in the Labour Party – about 25 years ago. What he remembers as the NZLP was what it was like then – nearly half my life time ago.

        I stopped being active about 5 years ago and I already notice that the internals of the NZLP is changing pretty damn fast (partially I think in response to this site with it’s hefty cohort of members and ex-members). My steadily diminishing lack of expressed opinion on the NZLP is because of that rate of change. Unlike people like the Paganis and Quin with their respective nostalgia trips, I respect that they are changing.

        However Chris makes his living out of his opinions, however dated they sometimes appear (Ummm I may have to buy him a wine for that wording). Those made about the NZLP are made from afar through the semi-opaque purple haze of people spinning far from the fronts of activity within the party, and a hefty dose of what he remembers the party to have been like in the 1980s. He has the same problem that most of the talking heads have; since they don’t do, they criticize based on what they used to know.

        They understand the inner life, structure, and debate of the NZLP about as well as I understand that of Act or National. Which is why people inside parties seldom listen that much to talking heads, they are far more interested in doing than publicizing in the way that the Progress people did last week. Same with almost any large organization of the many that I’ve worked for or helped. People inside a reasonably dynamic organization without some kind of idiot boss guru around tend to sort out how to move with the times.

        When you are outside of active politics, most people get more interested in figuring out where they sit on the questions of the day. Which is where the bickering dialogue at meeting places like this come into play. But they are far more like that of a pub than outpouring font of wisdom that the talking heads in their broadcast bastions prefer. And that you seem to want as well with you and your rather tiresome alcolyte’s calls for respectful politeness; that you haven’t earned.
        • Draco T Bastard 22.6.1.1

          15 June 2015 at 10:21 pm

          And that you seem to want as well with you and your rather tiresome alcolyte’s calls for respectful politeness; that you haven’t earned.

          You hit the wrong reply there? That looks more like a reply to Garrett than to Stephanie.
          • lprent 22.6.1.1.1

            16 June 2015 at 11:30 pm

            It was. Sorry Stephanie…
    • RedLogix 22.7

      15 June 2015 at 8:25 pm

      Personally I quite like and respect Chris. He a powerful writer, a fine moral compass, and he’s not too much bound up in pleasing the establishment. He’s also brings a strong historic perspective which I enjoy a lot.

      He often says things which the Labour loyalists really don’t like hearing – and for that reason Chris pretty much ignores TS and we ignore him as a rule.

      Sometimes Chris is bang on the money. Sometimes not. I read him and take what I want from it.

      Is Labour finished? Unlike some people here I would not say this is impossible, but neither is it about to vanish overnight. It will be around a while, and may even surprise us all yet.

      Two more downhill elections however, and maybe Chris will be proven correct.
      • Colonial Rawshark 22.7.1

        15 June 2015 at 8:39 pm

        Is Labour finished? Unlike some people here I would not say this is impossible

        Depends on what you mean by “finished.” In terms of Labour being able to beat National and form a government where it is clearly dominant over its coalition partners, I would say almost definitely.

        This stuff I keep hearing about Labour aiming to get 40% in two years, four months time – well, that just goes to show the level of disconnect in the Thorndon Bubble.
23. Weepus beard 23

    15 June 2015 at 8:08 pm

    Chris Trotter posts articles at The Daily Blog. The identity thief might have more luck with his enquiries there.
    • the pigman 23.1

      15 June 2015 at 8:21 pm

      *somewhere deep in the fevered nocturnal wanderings of Mr Garrett*
      LPrent: “Now listen here, comrades! It’s been 72 hours and The Standard STILL hasn’t issued its OFFICIAL POSITION on a musing of DISSIDENT TROTTER.
      *Mr Garrett awakes with a “start” to find his underwear moist, warm and sticky*

      Don’t worry Dave, we won’t tell Mother.

      Some sick fantasies types like Garrett have… they’d have to be really… the irony being that if the 3 strikes law had been implemented like Mr. Garrett’s would-be constituents wanted it to be, he would be serving a lifetime without parole in prison. 😀

      Now THAT’S an appealing fantasy!
24. David Garrett 24

    15 June 2015 at 8:18 pm

    Gosh! Such nastiness…Isnt there an exhortation to “Be nice to each other” somewhere at the head of this column?

    vto: I genuinely don’t know…As you will know (I never use a pseud) I very rarely come here, so I’m not up with the play…

    te reo: I take it that YOU at least don’t regard Trotter’s views as of any great importance…Do you have some connection with the Labour Party?

    But five comments, and two out of five referring to my (utterly irrelevant to this discussion) 30 year old passport offence…Says more about you than me perhaps ….
    • the pigman 24.1

      15 June 2015 at 8:26 pm

      Why would an offence so obscene, immoral and intellectually bankrupt be irrelevant to any discussion in which you try to assert a position of moral or intellectual authority (on any issue)? You think you using the word “utterly” (methinks you doth protest too much) makes it irrelevant to anything you have to say? It frames your entire public and political persona.
    • Atiawa 24.2

      15 June 2015 at 8:29 pm

      Thirty years is a long time ago. But shouldn’t you have fessed up before seeking your list position?

      The NZ Labour Party is 100 years old next year. We are survivors, albeit from time to time we have had traitors in our ranks.
    • McFlock 24.3

      15 June 2015 at 8:32 pm

      I believe trotter’s comments were given due discussion on open mike a few days ago. So unless you were telling the authors what to write, you are factually wrong.

      As for your history, be fair: if they wanted to throw a low blow against your character, empathy, and intellect, they would have mentioned your having been an ACT party MP.
25. David Garrett 25

    15 June 2015 at 8:31 pm

    Why have I suddenly been labeled “undefined”??

    I pride myself on always identifying myself..seems more honest… Ah…it’s corrected itself…As you were chaps…

    pigman: Help me out here if you’d be so kind…where in my comment do I assert any kind of moral authority? I am merely an interested student of politics…as morally flawed, sadly, as the next man…Yes, perhaps more flawed than most…

    Atiawa: Obviously you are not aware (and why should you be?) of ACT’s inner workings…and perhaps you were out of the country when the scandal hit. When asked, prior to being selected, if I had any skeletons in my closet I replied “Yes, a huge rattling one”, and proceeded to tell them all about it…
    • marty mars 25.1

      15 June 2015 at 8:40 pm

      lol that act selected you when they knew – I spose you were the best they had lol
    • te reo putake 25.2

      15 June 2015 at 8:44 pm

      Boy, that says a lot about the moral compass of the ACT board! Were they active in hiding the truth, as well?
    • the pigman 25.3

      15 June 2015 at 8:44 pm

      Kindly use the “reply” button David, it makes things so much less… messy.

      “where in my comment do I assert any kind of moral authority?”

      [emphasis my own]

      You don’t, in your comment. But you built an entire political career/brand (oh ok, I realise I’m flattering you a bit there) on getting tough on crime and cracking down on those easily branded as of lower moral standing (criminals and bludgers).

      Given that you ended that political “career” in such ignominy and have then continued to disgrace yourself, revealing you as the usual Banks-Huata-ACT type of born-to-rule hypocrite you are, I find it quite disingenuous that you present yourself here as a student of politics, because it seems you’ve long since flunked out.

      Let’s not get focused on the dead baby. What’s the status of the rap sheet? We’ve got the assault, the identity theft, the false affidavit you swore in relation to it, wasn’t there a wee drink driving issue a couple of years back too?
    • Atiawa 25.4

      15 June 2015 at 8:58 pm

      …. and they said ” David my boy, that’s nothing compared to what we have got away with. Welcome”.
      “
26. Adele 26

    15 June 2015 at 8:37 pm

    Tēnā koe, David

    Firstly, I have witnessed commentary on Trotter’s opining, both in agreeance and in annoyance, at the Standard. You need to dig more deeply with your machinations.

    Lastly, the Labour Party is not finished otherwise Trotter would be opining about something else. The labour body politic still has a pulse albeit somewhat thready and deserving of 5 gazillion volts of wholly owned NZ electricity – straight into its inwardly focussed thinking organ.

    The Labour Party should reflect the reality of today – not some bygone heyday. Workers have changed and the party should understand and reflect that in their strategising. The face of poverty has also changed and the party needs to understand and make amends for that too.

    Not finished, just slightly cyanotic.

    There is a glimmer of hope as occasionally I am pleasantly surprised by some utterance from a Labourite.
27. Weepus beard 27

    15 June 2015 at 8:39 pm

    …as morally flawed, sadly, as the next man…

    Speak for yourself!
28. David Garrett 28

    15 June 2015 at 8:46 pm

    Adele: And malo e lelei to you…My “machinations”? Not sure what you refer to…If Trotter’s view has already been discussed here I am unable to find it…but I guess it’s being discussed now!

    “not finished just slightly cyanotic”…Nicely put….
    • McFlock 28.1

      15 June 2015 at 10:26 pm

      Try open mike on the 12 june. It makes your initial comment, and therefore all of those that follow, pointless.
29. David Garrett 29

    16 June 2015 at 9:15 am

    McFlock: thanks very much…Lots of interesting comments there.

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