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Open mike 16/03/2020

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, March 16th, 2020 - 109 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

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109 comments on “Open mike 16/03/2020 ”

  1. SPC 1

    The government should (for some months at least) end the abatement regime on other income for those on benefits.

    This will allow an alternative to wage subsidy (which may not be enough to keep employees in their job).

    And it would make the move to no wait dole more effective as people looked to supplement this income to afford rents. Otherwise W and I will have huge administrative issues managing other income abatement and people will not being to pay their current rent on lower level benefits + $100 other income before abatement at 90%.

    • Sabine 1.1

      the government should simply declare a rent/mortgage holiday for the period of any shut down.

      As for staff….good grief, us small businesses we sit there with baited breath wondering how long we are allowed to work. I have cut hours. In what should be one of my busiest times in year i am worried how to make bill payments. We are good for now, but next month? Two month? Who knows, does anyone care?

      The government needs to realize that we are looking at long term mass unemployment unless they do more then just give free money to the Hotel Industry, Air NZ and the likes.

      Here is hoping that they do the right thing.

      • Wayne 1.1.1

        Sabine,

        That would be going too far. A gain for one is a loss for another. It surely depends on individual circumstances.

        That is why income support for affected people is a better approach, at least in the first instance. It enables them to meet their obligations.

        Depending on how long things go for, it might be necessary to have mortgage and rent relief, but it is not the first thing you do.

        I see the Reserve Bank has reduced their interest rate. Straight away that will provide mortgage relief.

        • Sacha 1.1.1.1

          What ways do you see owners of capital paying their share like workers will do by losing jobs or hours?

          • Wayne 1.1.1.1.1

            Most businesses will have reductions in turnover. That affects capital. I reckon pretty soon rents, both residential and commercial will be mandatory cut by 10%, then if necessary by 20%. We are not there yet, but we can’t be that far away, maybe an announcement in April?

        • SPC 1.1.1.2

          Income support for those in the gig economy (and causal workers in tourism and hospitality) whose hours reduce and or fluctuate is an administrative nightmare if they apply the abatement regime on other income.

          If these people go down to dole + $100 a week they will not be able to pay rent.

        • The Al1en 1.1.1.3

          How will the ocr rate cut provide me mortgage relief on my existing home loan?

          • SPC 1.1.1.3.1

            It's great for those borrowing money to buy another rental as a home goes through a mortgagee sale (loss of job income) – disaster capitalism at its finest.

            • The Al1en 1.1.1.3.1.1

              Yep, and doesn't give any relief to mortgage holders with fixed loans, unless they stump up an exorbitant break fee and refinance.

            • Incognito 1.1.1.3.1.2

              I can’t see the banks flooding the market with mortgagee sales.

              The OCR cut is going to help, but it was never intended to help everybody or help everybody equally. Where do these ideas come from? It is just one tool available to RBNZ and the more targeted measures will need to come from Government (tomorrow).

        • halfcrown 1.1.1.4

          Wayne @ 1.1.1wrote

          "I see the Reserve Bank has reduced their interest rate. Straight away that will provide mortgage relief."

          "Yeah right" and what did Orr achieve when he dropped the cash rate to 1%. I will tell, you sweet F….all except made every property speculating spiv rub their hands with glee.

          Some of us on the pension were told by your mates when Muldoom was the PM and brought in his disastrous election bribing pension scheme "to save for your retirement as there will be no pension when you retire". We did and went short (could not borrow much in those days) and now the interest we get does not cover inflation let alone use it to supplement our pension, when in the local veggie shop this week-end all prices were elevated and there was NOTHING under $2.99 per item for leafy greens.

          The virus outbreak has shown what any able thinking person has known all along that this Neo Liberal crap started by Friedman and the Chicago school taken up by Pinochet, Thatcher, Reagan and our own beloved Douglas and Richardson has been shown for what it is, a complete and utter disaster as soon as the first major collective problem hit the world.

          There has to be a complete re- think, don't continue with crap that has not worked.

          Lowering the cash rate to .25% will achieve F…all except further speculation in the property market.

          • riffer 1.1.1.4.1

            Yeah, fixed the mortgage last month. It ain't gonna help me. At least I can work from home.

        • Sabine 1.1.1.5

          with all due respect Wayne, go away.

          Go away, to your paid of house, with your government paid perks that you are still to receive and just stay away.

          You are of no use to anyone. Go away!

          Edit, Business have been down since January because our tourist season was shit.
          mechanics are starting to have issues cause spare parts ain’t arriving, cause they ain’t being produced.
          People the world over are not leaving their homes, they are not working, they are not producing, they are not packing, loading and shipping.
          And you want to cut rent maybe 10% . Good grief. Good fucking grief.

          • Sacha 1.1.1.5.1

            Settle down. Wayne is one of the few righties that ventures here. It's a persective worth us being aware of.

          • KJT 1.1.1.5.2

            If it wasn't so serious, I would be having a quiet chortle about one of our resident right wingers, advocating "socialist" responses.

            Though, I always thought Wayne was pragmatic, rather than doctrinaire.

            Meanwhile the hypocrisy, and irony, of the very industries, tourism for example, that have been dodging paying decent wages, taxes, and their true costs to the rest of the community, having their hands out for "socialist" redistribution, seems to go unremarked. Just like the farmers, with their hands out, for draught relief from the "pretty communist".

            • halfcrown 1.1.1.5.2.1

              KJT wrote

              "Meanwhile the hypocrisy, and irony, of the very industries, tourism for example, that have been dodging paying decent wages, taxes, and their true costs to the rest of the community, having their hands out for "socialist" redistribution, seems to go unremarked. Just like the farmers, with their hands out, for draught relief from the "pretty communist"."

              How true KJT, like the corporates who hate "socialism" but loved the big bail outs by Obama.

              I do love these people who have this "rugged" independent attitude that we All must stand on our own two feet, hate taxes so do their best to avoid paying taxes through tax avoidance schemes, blaming the less fortunate for their situation with an attitude of "if they got off their arses they could be like them" , suddenly find that socialism is the greatest thing since sliced bread, provided it is only applied to them as they work soooo hard and deserve it.

          • Herodotus 1.1.1.5.3

            I hope you are also willing to spit your venom towards those keepers of the left that have been and are in govt. but it is different when our side replicates what has gone before.

            No need for your unwarranted spray.

        • Adrian Thornton 1.1.1.6

          So home owners get immediate relief, but renters, who by default are usually in worse financial positions get none…that doesn't sound fair at all.

        • AB 1.1.1.7

          @Wayne "a gain for one is a loss for another"

          Wayne – really, I think you should stop this sort of inflammatory anti-capitalist rhetoric at a time like this. Civility man! There will be market-based solutions. Right?

        • Herodotus 1.1.1.8

          Many mortgages are fixed term, so any reduction will only benefit those with terms about to expire or are on floating – With reduction of interest will rents reduce ??? Have they ever ??

          What about those retirees that are dependant upon interest income to support their living costs.

          Will credit card interest rates reduce ?

      • SPC 1.1.2

        The government is looking at some arrangement with banks as to business customers (deferring repayments maybe)

        An option is interest free loans to business to make rent and debt repayments (this can be repaid when they return to profit).

        • Sacha 1.1.2.1

          It would be good if financiers like banks can forgo their profit margin as a temporary contribution to the greater good. Same with all loans and mortgages, really. Govt could underwrite only smaller lenders.

          Treading water is small price to pay when others are going under.

          • KJT 1.1.2.1.1

            I doubt it. They are all busily looking around to find ways they can "capitalise" the disaster, as we speak.

    • Tiger Mountain 1.2

      Agree SPC. The numbers on abatement were due to change from April 2020, but not by enough to cover market rents in this situation.

      https://communitylaw.org.nz/community-law-manual/chapter-22-dealing-with-work-and-income/benefit-rates-how-much-youll-get-and-how-much-you-can-earn/how-earning-money-will-affect-your-benefit-abatement/

      WINZ/MSD needs to drop most of their sadistic/moralistic bs and bring in income splitting for couples etc. also.

    • Gabby 1.3

      Well that would be fine and dandy given an abundance of available work. Otherwise, bit of an empty gesture.

      • SPC 1.3.1

        For those going from 40 hours a week to 10-20 hours a week in various gig/casual work it is the only way they will be paying their rent.

  2. Sabine 2

    A local here i know is going into self quarantine. The child arrives back from the US and they are not taking a risk – non of them have symptoms but the child was in a state with a high infection rate. They are also holding a fund raiser cause they don't have the money to just not work and have no income.

    Seriously to the Labour people reading here, a public announcement that outlines what services the people can expect would help. And i hope that they have instructed or will instruct the staff at Winz to 'dole' out these aids indiscriminatly and generously, so that people can actually survive.

    – food money for anyone on a benefit

    – one of payment to every household

    – rent/mortgage/commercial lease holiday

    -funds to help small and owner occupied businesses to weather this storm

    -legislation to stop any evictions, any shut offs of water/electricity

    would be nice to make such an announcment today, your people will need it, and it might be the difference between still having a somewhat functioning country at the end of it. So yeah, government, bail out your workers, your doers, you number 8 wire guys and girls.

    • Sacha 2.1

      The PM has said the announcement you want will come on Tuesday after cabinet have signed off on it at their meeting today (imagine the horse-trading with Winston and Labour's righties).

      • Sabine 2.1.1

        Good. Because right now there is a lot of fear in the country and it ain't the fear of the virus, but the fear of total societal collapse.

        So yeah, i am looking forward to hearing the annoncments tomorrow. If we as a country going to waste taxpayers money to bail out those that don't actually need it, then we as a country can help our citizens to stay afloat.

  3. Sacha 3

    Another way of looking at our pandemic response, from microbiologist Siouxsie Wiles: https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/16-03-2020/the-world-is-on-fire-my-message-to-new-zealanders-on-covid-19/

    When your house is on fire, you can either do the bare minimum and risk it turning into a raging inferno, or you can do your best to put out the flames completely. If it looks like the house isn’t going to be salvageable you can try doing a controlled burn. That way if fire engines are needed somewhere else, they aren’t all tied up at your place.

    Similarly, if your neighbour’s house starts burning, one option for protecting your property is to stand guard with a bunch of fire extinguishers and try putting out any embers that come your way. That obviously only works to a point. If it’s burning too brightly next door, then you’ll soon run out of fire extinguishers. At that stage, firebreaks are going to be needed.

      • bill 3.1.1

        Towards the end of her 3 minutes of air time, she made mention of a UBI. I'm no fan of UBI, but if I'm meant to isolate for a few weeks or more if/when I get ill, and bearing in mind that I'm fucking poor, then how the fuck am I meant to stock up with 2 or 3 or 4 weeks of foodstuff without a huge boost to my weekly income?

        I agree with Wiles that it's time to re-imagine the future and grasp this opportunity to dump some woeful mind sets and ridiculous ways of ordering our society.

        I've said it already, but in the twin light of conovavirus and AGW, all those economic activities that contribute nothing to societal well being need to be ditched and our focus shifted from the financial economy to the human one. Permanently.

        • AB 3.1.1.1

          Yes. And no doubt this comment (and Wiles's comment also) will be seen as trying to hijack these crises to advance some pre-existing 'left'or 'anti-capitalist' agenda. We need to remember though, that if we don't use a crisis well, the other side certainly will. So I am sure we will be hearing a lot about 'market-based solutions' to AGW if we give them any oxygen rather than jump all over them and stamp them out as soon as they appear.

  4. SPC 4

    The one risk of our 14 day arrival stand-down is people fleeing a failing health system to get treatment here.

    Because of this we are going to add, nation by nation, to the China, Iran and Italy ban.

    • alwyn 4.1

      Have you considered the other,rather more likely, scenario?

      New Zealanders fleeing our failing health system in order to try and get treatment in a country where their system is still working?

      Tell me again about how Australia is preventing New Zealand residents from entering Australia unless they have the right sort of Permanent Resident visa.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120241864/coronavirus-kiwi-couples-dream-holiday-cut-short-after-italy-goes-into-lockdown

      Do you really think that they aren't going to extend the approach to all New Zealand residents when we get a lot more occurrences of the disease here?

      • SPC 4.1.1

        Why would we be more likely to get community transfer before Oz?

        PS the link is to a story about not allowing anyone not Australian to go to Oz from Italy.

      • SPC 4.1.2

        And to help you think it through

        1. you are in a country where there is community spread (Europe and North America) and the health system is over-run, there will be community lockdowns.

        2. you know of people who have been infected, but you do not yet have symptoms.

        3. there is the option of travelling to a place where there is no community spread – and all you are required to do is have 2 weeks isolation in a homestay or hotel to access this place. And if you come down with symptoms during the two week isolation – well the local hospital will still have health staff yet to be exhausted and spare respirators if you need one.

        Basically we are a bolt-hole for those with the means to manage risk.

        4. Then there those – as today – backpackers with no intention of isolating for 2 weeks.

        We are going to have to require evidence of a 2 week stand-down place to prevent community transmission (require it before they fly here).

  5. mauī 5

    heart Wonderful news from across the ditch.

    "Woolworths has announced that they will be introducing a dedicated shopping hour across its stores to ensure the elderly and people with a disability don’t miss out on essential items, as shoppers continue to wipe supermarket shelves clean amid the coronavirus crisis.

    From Tuesday, until at least Friday, Woolworths Supermarkets will be opening exclusively for the elderly and those with a disability to shop from 7am to 8am."

    http://www.mygc.com.au/woolworths-introduces-special-shopping-hour-for-the-elderly-and-disabled-amid-coronavirus-crisis/

  6. Adrian Thornton 6

    Meanwhile that most vicious guard dog of the liberal free market status quo The Guardian run a piece by Blair telling us all how bad Sanders would be etc….FFS

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/15/ex-british-pm-tony-blair-bernie-sanders-gamble?fbclid=IwAR0mGlCJYgqhkmHZKw-j1nZdRHfvW4Gp3wf44hiUFi0PjwKzMbYughTUL6E

    I hope all you liberal fundamentalists out there are familiar with the old saying "you lay down with dogs you get up with fleas" getting itchy yet?

    And just in case you have may have forgotten, here is the figure head of your ideology …."Here's who Joe Biden is reportedly considering for top positions in his administration as he touts a 'Return to Normal' plan"

    .https://www.businessinsider.com.au/who-joe-biden-will-appoint-to-top-cabinet-positions-axios-2020-3?r=US&IR=T

    • AB 6.1

      Bloomberg and Jamie Dimon! It seems then that Biden vs Trump is a minor schismatic disagreement between two sections of the oligarchy. At least if we are talking about substance and the material conditions of people's lives. I suppose there is all the surface theatre around Trump being a disgusting person though. Maybe tut-tutting about civility is all our democracy is left with?

  7. Ad 8

    With US Congress (organized by Pelosi) passing a bipartisan Coronavirus package, wouldn't it it be great to see Bridges standing shoulder to shoulder with Ardern tomorrow at her big package announcement?

    If Trump can support Pelosi, surely our own Opposition can unite with the government for the sake of the country.

    • Paaparakauta 8.1

      Simon is doing a good job keeping a National brand viable while Ardern and advisers work on coronavirus response in uncertain times.

      Nationalist responses are futile when facing global existential threats like COV-19.

      National is arguably redundant in this highly inter-connected world.

    • Janice 8.2

      Of course Trump would stand by Pelosi, like most men of his ilk he needs a woman to clean up his mess.

  8. Incognito 9

    C'est le ton qui fait la musique.

    Because tone is important. When people learn new information, then don’t just take in the core content – they take in the tone as well. If they don’t agree with the tone (by looking at other people’s reactions), or they don’t like what the tone brings up for them (in terms of conflicting feelings or beliefs), they are more likely to reject the core message. However, if they see that the source is also willing to reflect and modify their message as the situation changes and / or they receive feedback, even if they don’t like your message, they’ll be far more likely to keep listening.

    https://sciblogs.co.nz/psychology-report/2020/03/16/if-your-comms-message-is-suboptimal-change-it/ [from Feeds on RH side of TS homepage]

  9. KJT 10

    https://evonomics.com/why-garbage-men-should-earn-more-than-bankers/?fbclid=IwAR2etjQMMKuELIV65Tpis0dOoxL_J9NlDiPeRnCrEZPAdjrIT6Q7ogFcS_

    "These products are essentially, like a tax on the rest of the population".

    Just a reminder, of who the real "moochers" really are.

    [Link fixed]

  10. Jimmy 11

    I'm not very happy about the bloke that traveled from Brisbane to Wellington after taking a Covid 19 test but not having the results back.

    Very inconsiderate of him as I believe he is now case no. 7 or 8!

    • When Jesus said "The poor you will always have with you," he was taking it as read that we're always going to have the stupid with us. This guy is way up there.

  11. John 12

    What [Deleted] did achieve was his stated goal of persecuting NZ firearms owners. One of his declared aims was to initiate the removal of firearms from the civilian population, and he knew that this mass murder would be used by our [Deleted; baseless opinion] politicians and police, as the excuse they needed to follow Australia’s example and confiscate firearms and put in place universal firearms registration.

    The only two purposes of any registration are either to tax something, or to locate it. Taxing something or locating it does not make that item safer, or less liable for theft. In the case of an animal, registration does not change its behaviour.

    In 1990 the mass murder in Aramoana led to the 1992 amendment to the arms act that introduced registration for military style semiautomatic firearms and removed the red book, the lifetime firearms licence held by over 365,000 NZérs, replacing it with a ten year plastic ID card. When the re-licencing was complete, only 215,000 had purchased the new licence, and about 5,000 of those were endorsed to possess the newly created category of MSSA, and those 5,000 registered about 7,500 MSSA.

    You can see that through this re-licencing process, 150,000 licence holders didn’t bother acquiring a new plastic card or possibly an endorsement as well. Their reasons may be many, perhaps many felt that as they already had a lifetime licence, and as they were fairly sure they weren’t dead, then they didn’t need another. In any case, over a third of the licence holders just disappeared from the record.

    Now there is another Arms amendment before parliament, that proposes to re-licence firearms owners, and register their firearms as well as charge them full cost recovery for the supposed public good. Most firearms owners see registration and re-licencing of individuals and clubs as a financial burden, unfairly imposed on them as scapegoats for the actions of a murderer. They see the police as culpable by authorizing the murderer to possess firearms and ammunition, though shortcutting the vetting process. The see the registration of their property as the precursor to confiscation further down the line.

    Have a think about what happened in 1992 where a 1/3 declined to get with the program, and consider now, when trust between the firearms owning public, and police and parliament is at an all-time low, when universal registration happens, how many will get with the plan, or decline to accept the govt’s generous offer.

    Those firearms will still be in fit and proper hands for a while, but everyone dies, and there they are, an item of value, that can’t be sold legally. Human nature will prevail.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • John 12.1

      It was posted under "remember March 15" as very much on topic and relevant as the author commented on the first firearms laws rushed through parliament with only lip-service paid to due process, and bemoaning the holdup to the second phase of persecution.

      I would not have posted comment there on our current and past legislation if the writer had been on topic. Our firearms legislation had nothing to do with the mass murders, although police administration of the act, puts them fairly in the frame. [Deleted] will not be prosecuted under the arms act which only deals with regulatory offences, but under the crimes act 1961 for murder.

      • Sacha 12.1.1

        Our firearms legislation had nothing to do with the mass murders

        Amazing how much damage the guy did with a kid's slingshot, eh.

        • John 12.1.1.1

          I am surprised that you find the gun at fault, rather than what was happening in the blokes head.

          Never mind, it seems you have lot of company. Being right is not a majority position, unlike getting your own way under our current system with a programmed electorate

          • McFlock 12.1.1.1.1

            Yup, no worries there – a gun advocate who doesn't like democracy, what could go wrong…

            • John 12.1.1.1.1.1

              Now that is funny! Someone who believes that we are living in a democracy.

              Under FPP we were controlled by a minority, and it got worse when we accepted the sick pup, MMP. We are ruled by the parasites who fund our political parties, and unable to sack a politician as they will return as a list MP.

              Political parties are the true evil of our age. Anyone who can distinguish between them is truly a genius. Akin to being able to pick up a turd from the clean end. Yet all have their devoted tribal religious following.

              The box you have placed me in doesn’t fit. I do not see myself as a gun advocate. Just a free man who wishes to go about his business without unnecessary interference from others. I do not need my sport and recreation supervised by the state, and I most certainly do not want to fund a huge, ever expanding bureaucracy to interfere with my activities that harm no one else.

              • RedLogix

                Political parties are the true evil of our age.

                Actually yes. At some point in our future we will recognise this and parties will cease to exist. Over the past 13 odd years I've participated here I've mentioned this maybe 4 – 6 times, and every time it gets either the silent treatment or angry denial.

                What interests me is how politics would work without parties, and I've made some tentative suggestions as to how we might structure systems to achieve this.

                • KJT

                  We already have an example. Switzerland.

                  Where real democracy makes political parties, and who funds them, almost irrevelant, and politicians have to be the day to day managers of their employer's, the electorates, goals, as they should be.

                  Of course it won't happen, as too many of our political types, on both sides, have an equal contempt for, "the masses". Along with a liking for having their three to nine year, "turn" with absolute power.

                  However a majority, including very likely a majority of gun licence holders, want the added safety of restricting guns.

                  John. Above, is no different from a race car driver who decides his right to drive a McLaren down the Southern motorway at rush hour should override the rights of the rest of us to be safe. Because, "individual freedom".
                  It is doubtful any political system will allow him the "freedom" to put other people at hazard, he desires.
                  New Zealanders, generally, do not have the same stupid attitude to guns that USA’ians have.

                  Many of us rather like the idea we can go about our business, without getting shot by a "law abiding gun owner" with the ability to kill dozens of people in a short time. The less of those types of guns that are around, the safer we all are.

                  I object to police carrying guns for the same reason. I don't think we should have to get "accustomed to innocent bystanders getting killed in the crossfire" as one police union representative, suggested. It is bad enough the cops inflicting the death penalty, by motor vehicle, way too often, already.

                  • RedLogix

                    Many of us rather like the idea we can go about our business, without getting shot by a "law abiding gun owner" with the ability to kill dozens of people in a short time.

                    A person who uses any gun to kill other people is by definition not law abiding.

                    However a majority, including very likely a majority of gun licence holders,

                    A dubious assertion given the relative failure of the buyback scheme.

                    It is doubtful any political system will allow him the "freedom" to put other people at hazard, he desires.

                    All political systems have to find a balance between individual rights and freedoms and collective safety. In general you can have one or the other, but not both. It's a tradeoff.

                    Up until March last year the existing tradeoff was considered acceptable. Then in the gut wrenching aftermath when emotions were running high, and the anti-gun lobby had been gifted an unprecedented moral authority, new legislation was rushed into place. The vast majority of gun owners, who despised the killer as much as the rest of us, suddenly found themselves paying a substantial price for the deviant actions of one individual. There was no attempt at gaining their consent or buy in.

                    Instead they found themselves being conflated with white supremacists and terrorists, openly demonised as 'gun nuts' etc. And you wonder why there is push back.

                    There is an old maxim in law that says 'bad cases make for bad laws' … this would appear to be an excellent example.

                    • KJT

                      The buyback scheme didn't fail for a start. The intent, of reducing the amount of dangerous weapons out there, worked.

                      You are repeating a bad faith argument from the gun lobby.

                      The existing model, wasn’t working. Which is perfectly obvious.

                    • RedLogix

                      When authoritarians are gifted some unearned moral authority, it's always revealing to see what they do with it.

                    • KJT

                      You are confusing "authoritarian" with the communities right to be safe from gun toting extremists.

                      They are not the same.

                    • RedLogix

                      As I said above, this is the argument of all authoritarians, the demand to give up personal freedoms in exchange for a largely illusory 'safety'.

                      All societies understand this tradeoff; total safety is impossible, but the mere demand to achieve it would eventually see the personal freedoms we take for granted taken from us. (The converse is also true, total personal freedom is illusory too because it dismantles the necessary social trust that is fundamental to all things.)

                      Imagine if every time there was a road accident, the govt unilaterally implemented a lowering of speed limits by 5km/hr insisting that we would all be 'safer'. After all road deaths each and every year total almost 10 times the toll in ChCh; yet there is no appetite to implement such a measure. You are not going to like me saying this, but why do 51 Muslim lives take such a dramatic precedence over those of 500 or so ordinary NZ citizens? It's not just the numbers in any one event, we've seen rail and shipping accidents take similar numbers.

                      The answer is of course that transport is a massive public benefit in total and we tolerate the cost in lives because of this. By contrast the anti-gun lobby discounts the value of gun sports to zero for personal and ideological reasons, but those who do own them have a quite different view.

                      And of course a lot of them are older, white males … so who gives a fuck?

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      "You are not going to like me saying this, but why do 51 Muslim lives take such a dramatic precedence over those of 500 or so ordinary NZ citizens?" – RL

                      Might it have something to do with the comparatively 'dramatic' way in which those 51 people lost their lives, and the fact that the taking of those lives was deliberate? Try substituting 'Christian' for 'Muslim' in your question, then reflect on why you consider it OK to minimise the event. Maybe consider the effect of asking such a question, indeed consider directing that question at the survivors of the attacks, and the relatives of those that did not survive.

                      IMHO such 'othering' is odious. I get why the shooter/mass murderer considered his targets to be something other than 'ordinary' people, but they were/are ordinary people, just as older white males are ordinary people.

                      Is it possible to make your argument without 'othering' the victims?

                      By contrast the anti-gun lobby discounts the value of gun sports to zero for personal and ideological reasons…

                      Your hyperbolic steak is showing, again.

                    • McFlock

                      51 dead isn't an illusion.

                      Good governments also restrict personal freedoms because of a few bad eggs.

                      Sometimes they ban things entirely (or only permit after extensive paperwork) – driving unsafe vehicles on public roads, purchasing high explosive, making guided missiles.

                      Because sometimes law-abiding people suddenly become non-law-abiding and kill people with the shit they legally bought. We can't tell which ones are going to do this, so we have to ban the destructive shit they bought.

                      This isn't authoritarianism. It's make-murderers-less-successfulism.

                    • RedLogix

                      @DMK

                      Try substituting 'Christian' for 'Muslim' in your question, then reflect on why you consider it OK to minimise the event.

                      Well I'd only have to look to Sub Saharan Africa to find plenty of up to date examples … but apparently that would be a mere distraction. Besides they're just Christians so who'd ever think to mention them here; they really are 'others'.

                      But to the point, when the Tangiwai disaster killed 151 New Zealanders, was there any call to ban trains? Or shipping in the wake of the Waihine sinking?

                      Or in the aftermath of the Nice truck bombing was there a ban put on the Quran which was the scripture used to justify the killing? The left would have gone into a total meltdown if that had been suggested.

                      The point is that 99.9999% of the time, guns are used with safe and legal intent. Rushing into making substantial changes based on extreme outlier events, tragic and gut wrenching as they are, without the consent from the people most affected is a recipe for generating totally unnecessary pushback.

                      And just to make it clear, I have probably read more of the Quran and spent more of my life immersed in an Islamic setting than all the rest of the regulars here combined. Over the years I've written defending Islam and explained in detail it's origins, history and why most Westerners struggle to understand it's scriptures. I've also vociferously condemned the fundamentalist, reactionary versions of it that have proven so vile and dangerous this past 30 odd years.

                      Your accusation of othering is rejected.

                    • RedLogix

                      @McF
                      Because sometimes law-abiding people suddenly become non-law-abiding and kill people with the shit they legally bought.

                      Did we ban trucks, fertiliser and diesel in the wake of the Oklahoma City bombing? Not on your nelly, and mainly because there was no pre-existing anti truck, fertiliser and diesel lobby just itching to exploit this disaster to ram it's agenda through.

                      It's my observation that gun owners tend toward the libertarian end of the spectrum and people who hate guns tend toward the authoritarian. This debate has a very real clash of values undertone. As for me, while I don't actually mind much that full automatics have been banned (I’ve never owned a gun in my life), the context in which this has been done will I believe prove to be counter-productive in the longer run. The 'safety' argument will turn out to be based on shifting sands.

                      You really could not have done any more calculating to foster extremism in the gun community. Exactly as was the shooter's intention. Well done.

                    • McFlock

                      Did we ban trucks, fertiliser and diesel in the wake of the Oklahoma City bombing? Not on your nelly, and mainly because there was no pre-existing anti truck, fertiliser and diesel lobby just itching to exploit this disaster to ram it's agenda through.

                      Actually, more because in NZ you could buy fertilizer and diesel, but fuzes, detonators, and boosters already took a shedload more paperwork and checks to get hold of.

                      I'd probably be ok with firearms being controlled in the same way as explosives. Anyone can get them if they pass extensive checks and training certification, and can demonstrate why they need them. Why would anyone need a high capacity magazine to hunt deer?

                    • RedLogix

                      but fuzes, detonators, and boosters already took a shedload more paperwork and checks to get hold of.

                      That's pretty weak really, and according to an old mate of mine I just talked to, who's worked with explosives extensively, detonators are not that hard to fabricate.

                      If we really wanted to tighten up gun ownership a sincere govt would have, sans disaster, gone to the various major gun owner organisations and asked them to engage in an authentic consultation over a period of years. It wouldn't necessarily be easy, but a proactive approach like this would ultimately get to a better place, with much less of the pushback. Like how we do all other legislation … such as making detonators hard to obtain.

                    • McFlock

                      That's pretty weak really, and according to an old mate of mine I just talked to, who's worked with explosives extensively, detonators are not that hard to fabricate.

                      Do you know how to do it? Would your mate show you without any questions? What about fuzes and a booster charge?

                      You can make firearms in your home workshop, too, even the bulk of it on your cheap 3d printer.

                      The difference is precision and quality control. Chch fucko walked around town and shot over a hundred people, killing half of them. A German fucko tried to copy him with devices he constructed, shot 5 killed 2 because his homemade weapons didn't have the same reliability as a storebought firearm (Halle, Oct 2019). Another guy did a similar thing with a glock17: shot 16 killed 11 (Hanau, Feb 2020).

                      Spending your inheritance on precision-made weapons enables you to murder more people than making your own.

                      And years of consultation is fine when corporate interests are involved. Worked a treat with global warming, too. /sarc

                    • RedLogix

                      The difference is precision and quality control.

                      For guns yes, for a bomb that only needs to work once, well lets say I'm told that fabricating and testing your design is well within the capability of a moderately technical person. Hell we used to fuck around with some pretty big bangs as teenagers devil

                      But all this is a distraction.

                      And years of consultation is fine when corporate interests are involved. Worked a treat with global warming, too. /sarc

                      OK so no more bothersome consultation with stakeholders … that'll set a fine standard going forward.

                    • McFlock

                      From the diy fucko link:

                      The attacker tried to enter the synagogue yard, firing shots and trying to ignite home-made explosives.

                      What you are told may be correct, but it is also irrelevant. Restrictions reduce the sample of successful fuckos to people who are fuckos enough to want to kill screeds of people and who also have enough technical ability to make their artisanal arseholery work effectively that one time.

                      Whereas these fuckos seem to be much more effective murderers when their technical ability can be limited to operating an eftpos handset and reading a user manual.

                      Oh, and yeah, fuck stakeholders when their response to people being killed by shit they like to play with is to send MPs propaganda produced by overseas lobby groups.

                    • RedLogix

                      Ah yes the typical leftie 'fuck em' response to people we don't approve of.

                      It always comes out in the end.

                    • McFlock

                      Doubling our national murder rate in one afternoon, that's what I really don't approve of.

                    • RedLogix

                      And that McFuck face is precisely why gun owners as so angry. They had nothing to do with him, they loath him as much as if not more than you do. But you persistently imply there is no difference between ordinary gun owners and a sicko terrorist.

                      You are doing his real word for him, and you know it. You my sick fucko are the same as him.

                    • McFlock

                      And that McFuck face is precisely why gun owners as so angry. They had nothing to do with him, they loath him as much as if not more than you do. But you persistently imply there is no difference between ordinary gun owners and a sicko terrorist.

                      So if he's so different, why didn't they spot him?

                      Could it be that they, like everyone else, can't tell who is going to go berserk until the person actually goes berserk?

                      So early identification doesn't work. There's no precognition, no thoughtcrime. Some perfectly fine law abiding gun owner keeps his plans to himself until the morning he gets up and murders people.

                      I mean, we could stop him buying the firearms that really add numbers to his tally, restricting him to machetes and firearms with a lower rate of fire. But then other law abiding firearms owners won't get to play with their bangbangs.

                      I mean, on average it's only something like 5 people a year shot by spree killers over the last thirty years, innit. Two of those five being murdered. Why shouldn't an ordinary deer hunter be able to lay down suppressing fire. It's pc gone mad, eh. 🙄

                    • RedLogix

                      It's pc gone mad, eh

                      Well yes. I read somewhere years ago the suggestion that the formation of the Dept of Homeland Security was bin Laden's proudest moment.

                      You can argue if you like that it made American's safer, but it also watered the seeds of a mistrust between the American people and their government, which has grown over 20 years into the hyperpolarisation that Trump is but one manifestation of.

                      This is explicitly what bid Laden and he who must not be named had in common; it was not the immediate act that was the long term goal. Muslims were not the real target of ChCh, although 51 of them paid the price for it, it was the destabilisation of the whole of NZ society.

                      As for the bangbangs you sneer at; neither my friend, nor my son in law have ever owned a full automatic and never intended to. (Actually apart from a quick thrill at the range, they're rather boring weapons from a skill and sport perspective.) But what has happened is that it's definitely exacerbated is a loss of trust in our government in both of them that I've never seen before.

                    • McFlock

                      I was upset when they got rid of pohas and tom thumbs as well. I got over it, so will they.

                    • RedLogix

                      I got over it, so will they.

                      You think? Then why does everyone here keep telling me how white supremacy and militant gun nuttery is on the rise, and how dangerous this is?

                      While WS always existed in various dark corners, the actual number of people committed to it was tiny. And they were always marginalised, the vast majority of people considered them literally beyond the pale. Now not so much; there is the thought that if the left is allowed to play the identity politics card … why can’t we? That really is dangerous.

                      Govts put legal constraints on all sorts of things, all the time. But not always; sometimes they get it horribly wrong. Like for example the Prohibition.

                    • McFlock

                      we can grow AR15s and G3s with yeast? 😮

                      Nobody gives a shit about anoraks who can have 3 hour discussions about whether a 238gr load is substantially different to a 245gr load. Or even rich fools who want to plug a deer from a mile away using an expensive rifle with expensive optics and match-grade expensive ammunition.

                      The problem is the white supremacist who gets their hands on that kit.

                      Unfortunately, WS cunningly fail to wear labels (at the moment). So nobody – not me, not you, not your friends – can see who is the WS who is buying a tool of mass murder.

                      This is why we can't have nice things. A few bad apples do indeed spoil the barrel.

                      If your friends really can't figure that out and are all angry at the government, maybe they shouldn't have guns in the first place. Anger management issues, and all that.

                    • RedLogix

                      Unfortunately, WS cunningly fail to wear labels

                      Which also puts paid to the related issue of how our security system 'failed to spot' him. How and why this guy was radicalised remains an open question that no-one is talking about anymore. Sure we know something of his motives that he outlines in his manifesto, but something happened in Turkey or Bulgaria that has never been openly explained. And probably never will.

                      This is the crucial link in the chain that I believe has far more significance that his ability to buy guns here.

                      If your friends really can't figure that out and are all angry at the government, maybe they shouldn't have guns in the first place.

                      The very definition of a self-serving argument.

                    • McFlock

                      White supremacist+factory made weapon= massacre.

                      Subtracting the weapon is, sadly, more likely to succeed that attempting to subtract whiste supremacists from society.

                      Just like subtracting morons who liked to blow up letterboxes would have been preferable to subtracting the firecrackers from society. Sadly, we'll always have morons and racists, but weapons and crackers can be regulated away with large amounts of success.

                    • RedLogix

                      The authoritarians first instinct to ban things doesn't always pan out as well as intended, and the way this one has been done sucks. It's arguably not worked on it's own terms, barely 25% of full autos have been handed in, and it's prompted an unfortunate and dangerous blowback that was precisely the express intent of the mass killer.

                      Right up above I said this:

                      There is an old maxim in law that says 'bad cases make for bad laws' … this would appear to be an excellent example.

                      And the more I talk this through, the more convinced I am this was an old and wise principle that we forget at considerable cost.

                    • McFlock

                      The authoritarians first instinct to ban things doesn't always pan out as well as intended, and the way this one has been done sucks. It's arguably not worked on it's own terms, barely 25% of full autos have been handed in, and it's prompted an unfortunate and dangerous blowback that was precisely the express intent of the mass killer.

                      He wanted a race war, not a bunch of babies who just want their damned toys.

                      Obviously 3/4 of owners of mass-killing tools are not "law abiding" firearm owners then, are they. They're just entitled folk who obey the law when it suits them and believe they're above the law when it doesn't.

                      It's good to whittle down the number of this type of firearm ("full auto"? wtf?) in the community. The number of mass-killing firearms will steadily decrease as criminals get caught. Including those criminals who believe they are law-abiding.

      • Incognito 12.1.2

        I made the decision to move your comment to OM because I don’t think it is appropriate to have the discussion that you want to have under a Post to commemorate the victims of the shootings on 15 March 2019. My decision is final.

        The other thing is that the name of the shooter is not to be mentioned here on this site. We don’t want to give him more prominence than he’s already receiving from some quarters of our society.

        The mass murder of 51 innocent people is a sensitive topic, to say the least, and should be treated with dignity and respect. Commenters who cannot abide by this can go somewhere else.

      • Gabby 12.1.3

        Did you accidentally mix up firearms law issues and race hate murders? Easy mistake to make you betcha.

        • I Feel Love 12.1.3.1

          His argument seems to be more regulations are useless, because gun owners won't abide by them?

          • solkta 12.1.3.1.1

            Yes, that law abiding gun owners won't abide by the law.

          • RedLogix 12.1.3.1.2

            If hypothetically Parliament was to pass a law requiring the sacrifice of all the first-born children to appease the God COVID … do you think everyone would meekly 'abide' by this new law?

            The distinguishing feature between democracy and tyranny is that in a democracy Parliament rules by the assent of the people. And a large fraction of gun owners who were happy enough to abide by the old rules, have not consented to these new ones.

            • KJT 12.1.3.1.2.1

              I'm sure a large fraction of motorist don't "consent" to the laws against speeding!

              Doesn't mean we shouldn't have them.

              The majority don't like getting killed in head on crashes because of some "individuals freedom" to do 148km/hr.

              • RedLogix

                I'm sure a large fraction of motorist don't "consent" to the laws against speeding!

                Actually they do. For many years the open road speed limit was 110km/hr and the police often set a 10km/hr tolerance band over that. Then over time, the authorities made a reasonable case that the limit needed reducing and the driving public, with rare exceptions, bought into this and consented when the limit was reduced to 100k/hr.

                What the govt of the day didn't do was exploit one single disasterously deviant act of speeding to demonise all motorists and then ram through the legislative change with no buy in.

                • KJT

                  A legislative change that should have been made after Aramoana.

                  Except it was opposed by a relatively few vocal gun lobbyists whose "individual rights" overrode our rights to safety.

                  Which 51 people have now paid the price, for.

                  • RedLogix

                    The problem with this argument is simple. If every time an extreme outlier event is exploited to justify radically tilting the safety vs freedom balance … it becomes a ratchet action.

                    Because there is no equivalent kind of event that can ever tilt the balance back toward individual freedom, it's all one way traffic toward increasing levels of an often illusory safety gained at the cost of increasing authoritarianism.

                    And as John pointed out above, this was explicitly one of the motives of the ChCh killer. You are in effect doing is real work for him.

                    • KJT

                      It wasn't an outlier. Forgotten Molineux in Tauranga, already. To name just one.

                      The gangs confronting cops with guns, they obtained from "law abiding gun owners have been happening more and more frequently.

                      You think we should just ignore it, and hope it all goes away.

                      We are getting increasing authoritarianism already, affecting everyone, just so a few can have “the right to bear arms”.

  12. Sacha 13

    It's fair enough to feel scared and angry and unsure about all this. Biden is another thing altogether. 🙂

    • Stunned Mullet 13.1

      "It's fair enough to feel scared and angry and unsure about all this. Biden is another thing altogether."

      Yes agreed – what is unhelpful is spreading false information and creating confusion.

  13. Eco Maori 14

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    Our government virus finance package is good from a Tangata government all the Tangata not just the wealthiest first. What would have happened if the tax cut happened like another government has done.

    Simon just loves kicking the less fortunate tangata.

    Ka kite Ano

  14. Eco Maori 15

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    Yes give putea to the poor it will go back into the economy.

    The governments financial package should ease Tangata Whenua.

    The Super market in Turanginui A Kiwa has had big sales a lot of people come from the coast to buy Kai.

    Ka kite Ano

  15. Eco Maori 16

    Kia Ora The Am Show

    It's called stimulating the internal Aotearoa economy or is that a bit hard for you to grasp + I'm sure Grant said big business could talk to him about their plans no good paying out billion just to see it end up under the mattress.

    You know that trickle down lie that was flogged to us for nine years well in reality money flows up.

    Kia Kaha to all the sports stars.

    Its good to see more jobs for local workers in Aotearoa back to the days of old.

    The less plastic waste that is produced the better our environment will be.

    I quite enjoy the Off grid program.

    Ka kite Ano

  16. Eco Maori 17

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    That's a good to test people for the virus in the car park testing people in their cars to minimise the spread risk of the virus.

    You mite have to use the family towl.

    Ka kite Ano.

  17. Eco Maori 18

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    I don't think that our government will divert the money for Te reo or other Māori programs.

    Its good to see Kura making plans for the effects of the virus.

    Ka pai to Iwi working with health departments to plan for the virus.

    Our government rescue package is will help tangata whenua .

    Ka kite Ano

  18. Eco Maori 19

    Kia Ora The Am Show.

    It would be good to see more money invested in Railways railways has a lower carbon footprint than other fright transporters.

    Money is a imagine 4 million value for every person life in Aotearoa it would be nice if Tangata Whenua O Aotearoa were valued more.??????.

    There you go organisation that can could have a third of their employees working from home at 1 time to save our futures environment.

    Your opinions change because of Reality I think it's time to change finance to a more stable mode that is not effected by Shocks like this. A sestanable system that is not fooled into thinking that the Papatuanuku has finite RESOURCEs.?????.

    That's a good idea live online exercise programs.

    Exercise is good for mental health the same as mahi.

    BBM is great at getting brown people moving into exercise.

    Yes it a opportunity to show kindness sharing compassion empthy.

    Ka kite Ano

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