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Open mike 16/06/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 16th, 2022 - 143 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

143 comments on “Open mike 16/06/2022 ”

  1. PsyclingLeft.Always 1

    They could be heard yelling "shame on police" and "give us our jobs back", while others shouted, "you have destroyed our lives".

    Ardern was at Tuahiwi School in February when things turned sour as she was leaving.

    Protesters lined up outside and screamed "shame on you" and "murderer".

    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/protesters-crash-pms-speech-christchurch-school

    A picture paints..well something. So Jacinda..apart from being a Marxist/Satanist/Job taker/Murderer sarc!!…is well liked by a LOT of NZers.

    These protestor loons are random fuckwits. Albeit with quite a dangerous element. Anyway…Keep shining Jacinda : )

    • Muttonbird 1.1

      Christchurch gonna Christchurch.

    • Just Saying 1.2

      I did the same thing with John Key. It was a political strategy. He was in town and there were people placed in the different places he was supposed to appear. Our little group drew the 'short straw'.

      I was yelling at him so close, I was looking at the pancake makeup on his face. I didn't like him, and was strongly opposed to his government's actions but it still felt horrible. I decided I was never going to be involved in screaming in someone's face again.

      My point is politics. The news crews weren't there and for myself, I was glad that there was no recording of me doing that, beyond whatever the numerous police, also stationed for hours waiting, chose to write.

      Political action usually isn't pretty. The idea is opposition and attention. The fact that you are writing this means it was successful action. And the Labour Government were also forced to pay attention. It is pressure and the activists are maintaining it.

      Political action takes a lot of time and energy. It is naive for a politico to personalise it.

  2. Sacha 2

    Who is next?

    • Molly 2.1

      Went to Twitter to read the 'full conversation', and there appears to be none.

      What's the context?

      • Sacha 2.1.1

        Current US situation, I'd say.

        • Molly 2.1.1.1

          There's a lot going on in America.

          Did you post without any specific point in mind?

          • Sacha 2.1.1.1.1

            No, but this is a classic current example:

            and this

            • Temp ORary 2.1.1.1.1.1

              You don't have to go to the USA to see the actions of those who think that the cleansing fire is an appropriate response to those who are seen as unpeople. Some in Tauranga are apparently far enough gone along that path already.

              A fire broke out at Rainbow Youth and Gender Dynamix's Tauranga office at around 1am today.

              Police were treating the fire as suspicious …

              They {Rainbow Youth executive director Pooja Subramanian} were yet to receive any confirmation regarding the nature of the fire but said they had not been subject to hate crimes in Tauranga before.

              https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/469221/rainbow-youth-tauranga-drop-in-centre-destroyed-in-suspicious-fire

              Perhaps coincidentally, the by-election is this weekend.

              • I Feel Love

                So sad. Some of us have been scared that this was coming, yet the useful idiots gonna idiot. My kids school are having pride month, it's just a matter of fact, no drama, I love her & her friends attitude, they have no fear & no hate. It's a shame that fear & hate are learned. Let 'em be.

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  I had to go looking for info about this…

                  ….because it is so important that kindergarten children learn about the adult entertainment industry. Origins are so important.

                  (Oh, and if that is what exploring one's 'feminine side' is about, heaven help us.)

                  • arkie

                    This is the local story:

                    A New Plymouth drag performer says a torrent of abuse directed at a Rainbow Storytime event at the Puke Ariki Library in the city has left her dismayed.

                    Sunita Torrance and Daniel Lockett perform as Coco and Erika in a show which encourages inclusivity and kindness.

                    On a New Plymouth District Council Facebook post promoting the Puke Ariki and Waitara Library appearances, the pair were accused of indoctrinating children and recruiting for the Rainbow community.

                    Torrance said she was a friend to the Rainbow community, but people were making assumptions about who she was and what her motivation was.

                    "I mean we are not going around saying everyone has to be gay. I'm not gay, I'm actually a straight female and that's what people don't seem to realise."

                    She said the show, which included story readings, singing and dancing, was deliberately ambiguous and designed to be appropriate for a young audience.

                    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/06/new-plymouth-community-shocked-after-drag-queens-receive-torrent-of-abuse-over-library-appearance.html

                    • Populuxe1

                      Wait until they find out about Panto

                    • Molly

                      What is the purpose of Story Hour?

                      I considered it to be about introducing children to the joy of reading. (Over time, children that love reading will be introduced to wide variety of perspectives and lifestyles through their reading material.)

                      This approach has replaced that intent with a values driven outcome.

                      On that alone, it should be scrutinised.

                  • Molly

                    This is quite a good video about the conflict of well-intentioned but badly implemented inclusion projects on basic child safeguarding practices:

                    Drag Queen Story Time: Child Grooming In Plain Sight?

                    • Rosemary McDonald

                      My research the other evening missed that….thank you….I think. You'd think that that in the post- Saville era there would be more awareness of wolves in sheep's clothing.

                      I'm looking forward to some robust debate on this issue.

                      I suspect, however, there will be cries of "Hate!!!" and "Abuse!!!" and an unspoken assumption that our concerns (Hate!!!) should not be dignified with a response.

                    • Molly []

                      I guess the experience of dealing with petulant but loved children provides some women of a certain age a degree of imperviousness to emotional entreaty and random insults.

                      I know the years of practice in this regard has had value in some of the Standard's robust discussions.

                      😏

                    • Populuxe1

                      Yeah, we should totally ban pantomime and a lot of kids' television too because all that cross-dressing is endangering children. Cancel Mrs Doubtfire! Oh, and clowns, because obviously that can be a bit confusing as well – obviously clowns are a gateway to drag.
                      Sigh.

                    • Molly

                      @populuxe

                      'Yeah, we should totally conflate basic safeguarding principles with banning pantomimes. Let's include a lot of kids' television too because I need to generalise because I have no idea of context. Cross-dressing is empowering children. Treat them all like Mrs Doubtfire! Oh, and clowns, because obviously I have no limit to my far flung associations as well – obviously clowns are a gateway to drag which is a type of car racing.

                      You want a point as well? Sigh.'

                      Let's me be clear. I see no reason for Clown Story Hour either.

                      If it does become a possibility, good luck with your application. yes

                • Temp ORary

                  A lot of us have been scared that this was coming; I Feel Love. Bullies always do prefer to pick on those less likely to fight back. This from twitter seems to encapsulate the dread that has been building this last year or so:

                  https://twitter.com/ThisIsCorey/status/1537209547881713664?s=20&t=ohx9ESbsTEgMQ4r9_ibCQw

                  I'm not on TS much these days so got a bit rusty on the linking tools – I will cut and paste the comment thread too:

                  This scares me. I’m starting to feel that little bit more unsafe in NZ…

                  In NZ I feel safe walking down the road holding my husband hand. Overseas we never hold hands. If I start feeling unsafe to do that, then things need to change. I hope it never ever gets like that…

                  Time to fight discrimination. We can’t let things like building being burnt down happen anymore.

                  • Anker

                    100% Molly

                  • Anker

                    Shaneel, oh isn't that the person who wanted all health professionals, including Dr's to go to jail under the Conversion Therapy Bill if they didn't offer gender affirming care to gender dysphoric people?

                    "Bullies always pick on those who are less likley to fight back". Well that certainly wouldn't be Shaneel and the Trans lobby now would it.

              • Molly

                Anyone involved in this should be found prosecuted, if it was an intentional act.

              • Anker

                Absolutely and utterly condemn this arson. I hope they find who carried it out and prosecute.

                • Temp ORary

                  A good way to express your condemnation (if it's not just "hopes and prayers"), is to chip in for a temporary drop-in center during the rebuild.

                  All money from this fundraiser will be donated to Rainbow Youth. Rainbow Youth does have a form of insurance that we are looking into and this page will be updated with the information regarding the coverage as soon as that information is available.

                  https://givealittle.co.nz/fundraiser/rainbow-youth-tauranga-drop-in-centre-burnt-down

                  • Molly

                    Apart from the fact they should be adequately insured, I won't contribute because I think their form of 'support' has the potential to harm young people.

                    You obviously think that we don't stand by our words, when it comes to this topic.

                    You, however, can follow your own advice without conflict.

              • Muttonbird

                Tauranga. The Christchurch of the North.

                • Temp ORary

                  Even Ōtautahi didn't have the Rhodesian Services Association holding ANZAC day ceremonies as the RSA! That's some next level assholery that I had forgotten about till looking at the NRT piece linked on the right (though not on mobile):

                  Homophobic harassment, followed by an apparent anti-gay hate crime. Something is very wrong in Tauranga, and it seems like the entire city is being infected by hate and bigotry (see also: their racist museum).

                  http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2022/06/something-is-wrong-in-tauranga.html

                  I was hoping that it was just a result of big talk leading up to the byelection, but it seems likely to have more to do with local school events (and scrutiny thereof) that I hadn't been following:

                  A group of students at Bethlehem College, a state-integrated Christian school, were taking part in the international Day of Silence against bullying when they were targeted by a number of opposing students from the same college.

                  The abuse allegedly included chants of “kill the gays”, and students attending the event said that their phones had been confiscated so that they could not record video footage.

                  Stuff understands that one of the students was injured by something thrown. The incident has been reported to police.

                  A parent of a student at Bethlehem College said that those taking part in the protest had received verbal death threats, “obscene heckling” and “sexual shaming” comments from other teenage students at the school.

                  “It is ironic that people protesting against bullying themselves become the victim of bullying,” said the parent…

                  The annual Day of Silence is a day of action in which students across Aotearoa vow to take a form of silence to call attention to the silencing effect of homophobic, biphobic and transphobic bullying, name-calling and harassment in schools.

                  The goal of the day is to “make schools safer for all students, regardless of sexual orientation and gender identity/expression” according to its website, which also cites research which showed students in the LGBTQIA+ community were three times as likely to experience bullying at school than other children.

                  https://www.stuff.co.nz/bay-of-plenty/300611407/school-launch-investigation-after-alleged-threats-made-to-students-supporting-lgbtqia-community

                  Which was followed today (in the early morning, but less than 24 hours ago) by the Rainbow Youth center (alleged) arson. Then these background details were reported this afternoon that seem to bring the picture into better (if disturbing) focus:

                  A statement made in Bethlehem College's Statement of Belief, published on the school website, is also under scrutiny by the ministry following a complaint from Tauranga man Gordy Lockhart.

                  Point 13 in the document states: "Marriage is an institution created by God in which one man and one woman enter into an exclusive relationship intended for life, and that marriage is the only form of partnership approved by God for sexual relations."

                  Lockhart, who wrote to Associate Minister of Education Jan Tinetti, and Minister of Education Chris Hipkins, said the statement was discriminatory and illegal.

                  Education Minister Chris Hipkins told Stuff that a review into the statement was underway…

                  The Ministry of Education has confirmed that this statement was not included in the College’s Integration Agreement entered into with the Minister of Education in 1999. It has ordered the Principal, Board of Trustees and Deputy chair of the Christian Education Trust to remove point 13…

                  Queer rights activist Shaneel Lal (they, them) said that, in their view, the Summary of Beliefs relating to Gender, would, if imposed, be both discriminatory and against the law…

                  “Bethlehem College admits that gender-affirming care for trans people is contrary to their beliefs and will attempt to stop trans students from getting affirming care.”

                  Lal said that, in their view, stopping trans people from being trans with the intent to make them cisgender was conversion therapy, “which is prohibited and viewed as a crime under the Conversion Practices Prohibition Legislation Act, this is a crime.”

                  Lal said students and former students had come to them about receiving conversion therapy at Bethlehem College…

                  Another petition that Lal started over the weekend, lobbying the Ministry of Education to investigate practices at Bethlehem College, has already reached more than 6300 signatures.

                  https://www.stuff.co.nz/bay-of-plenty/300613838/school-told-trans-student-god-doesnt-make-mistakes–then-they-tried-to-kill-themselves

                  The petition now stands at 6,665 signatures, my own among them. If they want Ministry of Education money, then they have to abide by governmental standards rather than trying to pull a fast one and unilaterally changing the wording afterwards.

                  • Rosemary McDonald

                    If they want Ministry of Education money, then they have to abide by governmental standards ….

                    Simple solution would be to remove all government funding from all "Special Character" schools. All of them.

                    I suspect that would go down like a cup of cold sick.

                    Parents choose to send their kids to such schools. Perhaps these parents should be censured/prosecuted for willfully exposing their children to ideologies that fails to meet government standards?

                    Whatever those are. We have a Parliament that prays to Almighty God ffs ….

                    You can see how quickly your plan could get a tad complicated.

                    • higherstandard

                      Still bemusing the commenters with common sense I see Rosemary.

                      Trust you and Peter are both well.

                    • RedLogix

                      @hs yes

                      Very droll.

                    • Molly

                      The original Stuff article was low on details, until it morphed into a highly detailed resume for self-promoter, Shaneel Lal.

                      https://www.stuff.co.nz/bay-of-plenty/300611407/school-launch-investigation-after-alleged-threats-made-to-students-supporting-lgbtqia-community

                      Being delivered a narrative with no idea how the situation developed.

                      Of course a Christian School that refers to Scripture in it's agreement with the Ministry will have intolerant views an same sex marriage.
                      Is that really a surprise?

                      And if it is the principle, then, as you point out, why not demonstrate at other Special Character schools with even more regressive values where they stlll limit entry on the basis of – clutch pearls – sex?

                      So what is really happening in Tauranga?

                      For the interested:

                      Last update on 14 June 2022: Detrans subreddit at: 33.6K members

                      Detrans subreddit now at: 34.2K members

                      (PS, Hope you have both avoided a second bout of Covid after your exposure to your MoH approved caregiver.)

                    • Sacha

                      Molly, the school has snuck in the thing about marriage after its agreement with the state.

                      and

                    • Rosemary McDonald

                      @higherstandard

                      Getting a little bemused myself by those demanding unconditional inclusion demanding exclusion of those who have beliefs and lifestyles that differ from theirs. Can't we just get on?

                      And Peter and I are fine. Truly. Thank you. Neither of us have felt this fit in ages. Picking bananas, moving the sheep, tending the vege gardens, watching the kotare and piwakawaka getting fat on bugs and slugs. Listening to tui…no small thing up here…we now recognise three distinct calls. Taking our vitamins. All kinds of good.

                    • Molly

                      @ sacha

                      I've looked at the Fifth Schedule of their Integration agreement with the Ministry of Education,

                      https://www.education.govt.nz/our-work/information-releases/issue-specific-releases/integration-agreements-for-state-integrated-schools/integration-agreements-for-state-integrated-schools-a-b/#Bethlehem

                      … and their annexed Statement of Belief.

                      My interpretation, as a very lapsed Catholic, is both the Fifth Schedule and Statement of Belief give a broad enough statement to cover the marriage issue.

                      Eddie Clark, and many others think differently.

                      What I believe should happen next is for the Ministry of Education to release an official statement, and for that position to be tested by some form of legal challenge, either in support or against.

                      Then everybody – the public, the special character schools, the students – all know what the legal ramifications are.

                      Religious belief is still a protected characteristic of the Human Rights Act (1993) whether we agree with those beliefs or not.

                      I think we need to give this issue the discussion it deserves, not instant approbation.

                    • Molly

                      @Molly

                      There's a certain air of shooting fish in barrels here:

                      Lal has started another petition over the weekend, lobbying the Ministry of Education to investigate practices at the Bay of Plenty school.

                      They started the petition on their Instagram and Twitter pages after students contacted them about experiences of “sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism and other forms of discrimination at Bethlehem College”.

                      https://www.stuff.co.nz/bay-of-plenty/300611407/school-launch-investigation-after-alleged-threats-made-to-students-supporting-lgbtqia-community

                      Brings to mind a certain gay rights activist (who I can't recall at present, since he is only referred to as a 'follower on Instagram' on most articles) asking a fundamentalist Christian league player about his thoughts on gay rights, and being surprised at the answer. Given that unless you share those beliefs, Hell is as real as… Heaven, the response makes no sense.

                      And if we are encouraging young people to follow individuals in all aspects of their life, rather than just their field of excellence, well, we need to address that.

                  • Populuxe1

                    Not sure the Rhodesian Services Association could be holding ANZAC day ceremonies as the Christchurch RSA when they haven't had a building in years. Perhaps you mean the group calling themselves "the Original RSA" who are a pack of nutters and if you will insist on judging a community by its fringe I will be more than happy to point out the extremist oddballs wherever you live as I keep lists.

            • Molly 2.1.1.1.1.2

              Oh, free for all and any interpretation.

              You would've provided a point of discussion if you'd posted either of those tweets for discussion to start with.

              However, even those without points made are ambiguous as regards your intent.

            • Anker 2.1.1.1.1.3

              Re the drag queen story telling. I was taken to pantos a lot as a child and there was always a "Dame" (man dressed as women). We knew it was a man dressed as a women and the humour was age appropriate (.e.g. the classic panto thing of getting the kids to yell out that the baddie was behind the Dame

              Queer theory is it about breaking down societies norms about sex ( from Wiki " QT can be summorized as exploring the oppressive power of dominant norms, particularly, those relating to sexuality".)

              Proponants of QT such as Gabrielle Rubin in her Charmed Circle talk about the need to normalize that which is outside the charmed circle (and she specifically names "intergenrational sex"). Judith Butler did the cause no favours by saying that she thought in some cases it was possible for childrent to consent to sex with adults. Both of these academics are dangerously close to endorsing paedophilia.

              It is really important that adults who interact with children are scrupulous about keeping very tight boundaries around issues of sexuality. See link below as a recent, extreme example of those boundaries being errased.

              https://play.acast.com/s/the-family-sex-show-starts-here.

              This stage show was influenced by QT (the family sex show in the UK) and was advertised as suitable for children 5 years and up. It contained nudity and topics such as masturbation The show was fortunately cancelled because of public outcry.

              Traditionally drag queens have featured in adult only shows and so I am very curious about why suddently there is a whole movement to have drag artists read to kids??? Why is this happening now? Why would we do that? The drag show I attended (all-be-it some years back certainly contained adult only themes).

              There is a term known as trans generational blurring. What this refers to (and it has nothing to do with trangenderism), is when adults blur the lines between themselves and children. So adults present themselves or information to children when it isn't developmentally appropriate.

              BTW some women argue that drag queens are the equivalent of black face, Ie. they are parodying female sexual stereotypes. I myself don't hold that view, but I can see why some women do.

              • Sacha

                Judith Butler did the cause no favours by saying that she thought in some cases it was possible for children to consent to sex with adults.

                Really? Do you have a link for that?

                • Molly

                  Couldn't get the links to her papers on my phone , but this article that dessiminates her work can provide the names for you to pull up the original works:

                  https://uncommongroundmedia.com/the-trojan-unicorn-qt-and-paedophilia-part-iv-dr-em/

                  • Sacha

                    Ta. One anonymous motivated critic quoting brief passages from a book that we cannot link to is what it is.

                    • Molly

                      Yes. Given up spoon-feeding long ago.

                      Never was inclined to do it for grown men who are not physically incapacitated.

                    • McFlock

                      Couldn't see anything in the link that talked about Butler's theories on children and consent, either.

                      ISTR ripping shit out of ACT's leader at the time Jamie Whyte for ruminating upon the ethics of incest when he was philosophising, but I don't think anyone accused him of supporting pedophilia.

                    • Sacha

                      Eg:

                      Taking over the baton to captain this backlash against feminism was the high priestess of queer theory gibberish — Judith Butler — who, unsurprisingly, defended incest. Furthermore, she did this without making a single reference to the fact that most familial child sexual abuse is by a male relative to a female child. Rather she used queer theory to claim that by denying incest and legislating against it states were enforcing heterosexuality. In her triumph and magnum opus of flimflam — Gender Trouble — Butler postulated that ‘the incest taboo is the juridical law that is said both to prohibit incestuous desires and to construct certain gendered subjectivities through the mechanism of compulsory identification. But, what is to guarantee the universality or necessity of this law?'[efn_note]J. Butler, Gender Trouble (London, Routledge, 2000), p. 96.[/efn_note]

                      Despite these facts, Butler promoted ‘the legitimacy and legality of public zones of sexual exchange, intergenerational sex, adoption outside marriage, increased research and testing for AIDS and transgender politics’.[efn_note]J. Butler, ‘Competing Universalities’, im: J. Butler et al, Contingency, Hegemony, Universality: Contemporary Dialogues on the Left (Verso, 2000), p. 160, my emboldening.[/efn_note] This is an example of how queer theorists sandwich advocacy for paedophilia or incest in between legitimate arguments for advancing gay and lesbian rights. This is done in order to legitimise the arguments for child sexual abuse and make them harder to fight.

                      Butler’s thoughts on sexual consent should be read with her defence of incest in mind.

                    • Sacha

                      Nor am I inclined to spoon-feed fools who cannot make a sensible argument, let alone on this topic. Enjoy your evening.

                    • Anker

                      Molly you beat me to it!

                      To quote Butler "the incest taboo is the juridical law that is said both to prohibit incestuous desires and to construct certain gendered subjectivities through the mechanism of compulsory identification. But, what is to guarantee the universality or necessity of this law?"

                      from Gender Trouble page 95.

                    • Molly

                      @McFlock.

                      Anker put forth her opinion, and did not accuse Butler of supporting pedophilia..

                      " Judith Butler did the cause no favours by saying that she thought in some cases it was possible for childrent to consent to sex with adults. Both of these academics are dangerously close to endorsing paedophilia."

                      Consent discussions by Butler do assign a large degree of autonomy.

                      Other academics that build on Butler's work, do take that direction further. Allyn Walker comes to mind.

                    • Sacha

                      Wow it really is quite a specialised genre. And I'm guessing the infuriating vagueness is kind of built in because of the experiences. That's hard. Have learned a lot today. Thank you.

                    • Molly []

                      Queer Theory makes a virtue of vagueness. It's required, so that people lose the will to live when trying to unravel it.

                      Try reading Judith Butler, Allyn Walker, Grace Lavery, Laurie Penny who are all recognised Queer Theory academics and/or authors.

                      Then come back here to TS and write a simple post on the shifting fogs of Queer Theory for all of us who see no value in it. And can see the real world harm that follows adherence to abstract ideas.

                    • Rosemary McDonald

                      @Molly Queer Theory makes a virtue of vagueness. It's required, so that people lose the will to live when trying to unravel it. And when one is close to that point…watch this…

                      Spares no blushes and pulls no punches, and as is typical for the Triggernometry lads… a totally honest conversation with someone who knows their stuff.

                  • Populuxe1

                    What Butler actually thinks:

                    They are taking the idea of the performativity of gender to mean that we’re all free to choose our gender as we wish and that there is no natural sex. They see it as an attack on both the God-given character of male and female and the ostensibly natural social form in which they join each other—heterosexual marriage. But, sometimes, by “gender” they simply mean gender equality, which, for them, is destroying the family, which presumes that the family has a necessary hierarchy in which men hold power. They also understand “gender” as trans rights, gay rights, and as gay equality under the law. Gay marriage is particularly terrifying to them and seen as a threat to “the family,” and gay and lesbian adoption is understood to involve the molestation of children. They imagine that those of us who belong to this “gender movement,” as they put it, have no restrictions on what we will do, that we represent and promote unchecked sexual freedom, which leads to pedophilia. It is all very frightening, and it has been successful in threatening scholars and, in some cases, shutting down programs. There is also an active resistance against them, and I am now part of that.

                    • Molly

                      A couple of pertinent points you Drag aficionados are missing:

                      1. Drag is not a sexual orientation.

                      2. Drag is not a gender identity.

                      Drag is a form of performance art that is predicated on a caricature of stereotyped womanhood, for the purpose of sexual innuendo jokes for the amusement of adults,

                      Hardly a role model for children regarding living an authentic life.

                      And, STILL no connection to reading.

                    • Anker

                      https://www.theguardian.com/books/1999/dec/24/news

                      In reply to McFlook re what Butler thinks. Butler is sometimes indesciperable e.g she won the Guardian's competition for the worst paragraph some years back and even Butler scholars sometimes can't descipher what she means.

                      But even in the quote from Populuxe 1, Butler merely states what she thinks her opponants think of QT about paedophilia. She doesn't deny that she thinks children can give consent to relationships with adults….Hell if someone interpreted what I was saying in that way I would go out of my way to refute it……

                      Some of the key players in gender identity are linked to paedophilia, eg. Foucoult, John Money and even though she is a poor writer the quotes I posted above from Judith B are suspious to say the least.

                    • McFlock

                      Whatever.

                      Just thought it was funny your link didn't have anything remotely close to Butler saying "she thought in some cases it was possible for children to consent to sex with adults."

                      I don't particularly care. CBF bothering with tories, tankies and bigots here most days now.

                    • McFlock

                      missed the edit. Sorry, molly's link after you were asked for evidence to support your statement. Not "your link"

                    • Molly

                      @McFlock

                      Since you have reading comprehension and listening deficits when it comes to many women on TS… here's a man's perspective:

    • joe90 2.2

      Next?

      • Molly 2.2.1

        Well, I don't agree with him.

      • Anker 2.2.2

        Nope absolutely don't agree with Pastor Mark Burns.

        • Anker 2.2.3.1

          Well it is always very shocking and sad to here of a young person who attempted suicide and I am very glad to here they survived. I hope they are doing o.k.

          It is a clash between religious views and gender ideology views and these views are diametrically opposed.

          BTW the latest research from Swedon (will post link of request) shows that even after trans people have gender affirming surgery their risk of suicide is high and indeed after such surgery their risk of psychiatric admissions was higher than pre surgery. It msut be a difficult path in life and I feel for anyone with gender dysphoria.

          • Belladonna 2.2.3.1.1

            You might also think that the family bears some responsibility here.

            If I (as a parent) have a kid who is clearly unhappy with the way that they are being treated at school – and it's a matter of school policy (which this is), and therefore not going to change ; then I would be removing my child and sending them to the local State school, PDQ.

            Alternatively, if the family supported the school's policy and procedures (which they may well have done – the article is silent on this) – then I suspect that the teen is more likely to have been distressed with the family relationship, than with the school one.

            If you don't like/agree with faith-based schools (whether Catholic, Protestant or Muslim), then don't go. There are secular alternatives freely available.

          • The Al1en 2.2.3.1.2

            Post was @joe90. So to be clear, if I want a conversation, I'll reply directly.

            • Anker 2.2.3.1.2.1

              Proabably best to mention my name The Al1en and then I will know you want to address your comment to me. On this blog site everyone is free to comment on anyones comment, it is not exclusive in that way.

              But I will do my best to remember that you don't want me to respond to what you say.

        • Molly 2.2.3.3

          That's a terrible experience for that individual child, but there are not enough details to draw conclusions.

          Given the strangely accepted and repetitive narrative associating transgender people with suicide, despite this being against suicide prevention guidelines, it is sad but not surprising to hear of such attempts.

          We don't know if this distressed child had co-morbidities, and/or if they were receiving therapy for any self harm.

          Given the inaccurate story that they are told about the proponderence of societal hate, and the constant use of suicide as a reason for unquestioning affirmation, is this incident a surprise?

          If we tried to create an ideology that fed natural teenage insecurities and reduced their development of personal strength and resilience, gender ideology provides a good blueprint.

  3. Ad 3

    The US Federal Reserve just put up their rates by .75. Biggest rate rise since 1994.

    Steadied their SX, but our RB will surely follow suit.

    What chaos for anyone trying to get a home loan.

    • Poission 3.1

      Any one trying to get a home loan should wait to late next year,as the property bubble deflates to its real (fundamental) value.

      GDP just came in -0.2% .

      • pat 3.1.1

        Just getting started

        • Poission 3.1.1.1

          Export manufacturing decrease is troublesome,as our Current account has blown out to record (absolute numbers).

          Mortgage rates have a real risk of 10% this time next year,watch the contraction in the new economy products.

          The European central bank had an emergency meeting last night to jawbone the Euro,watch the med economy's contract fast.

          • pat 3.1.1.1.1

            I was reflecting on 10% mort rates rates last night…and bail in.

            • Poission 3.1.1.1.1.1

              Westpac just borrowed 750m at 5.25%,they need to up their stress test to 2 figures.

              On the other side a contraction in property prices to pre covid levels would make regional economys more affordable,

              US fed realtime data suggests a technical recession is already there.

    • Nic the NZer 3.2

      An analysis with the headline,

      "US labour market weakens a little – it is madness to be increasing interest rates in this environment"

      http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=49908

      • Poission 3.2.1

        The US has around 1.9 job vacancy for every unemployed person.so there is a large contraction ability in the US labour market.

        The feds target is the wealth destruction of overpriced assets,zombie companies (those that roll interest debt over without paying down debt by buying their own stock etc) Also the new age stocks that have value far above what they could achieve SPX is overpriced.

  4. Chris 4

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/300610315/unwanted-disabled-children-are-being-denied-full-education-advocates-say

    Previous governments have constantly told us they've fixed this problem, but it's been with us forever. IHC took a case to the Human Rights Review Tribunal, didn't it? What the heck's happened to that? Wrong outfit to be taking government on, anyway. Far too much invested in government contracts to have the 'temerity' to litigate against hand that feeds them. No wonder the problem's still around.

    • RedLogix 4.1

      Yup. Been here done all this. It is why we bypassed the govt system altogether.

      • Chris 4.1.1

        Sure, but for those not lucky enough to be able to…

        • RedLogix 4.1.1.1

          Absolutely no quibble with that at all. I was just confirming your first comment and agreeing that intellectual disability services fall well short of what is possible and desirable.

          And much of this shortfall results not just from a lack of money, but a lack of vision.

          But as you say, who is there to argue for them?

          • Chris 4.1.1.1.1

            One of the most annoying things is that government in its rhetoric says all disabled kids can participate fully in our current education system. There's no disagreement between what the disabled want and what government says is already happening. Everyone knows the reality is bullshit but nothing changes.

    • Belladonna 4.2

      Not just previous governments, Chris Hipkins used this argument to decline a proposed charter school for special needs kids.

      Hipkins said one reason for declining it was “that there are available supports for all learners in existing state schools”.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/125672364/parents-devastated-as-government-rejects-state-school-for-children-with-special-needs

      The quality of education and educational support actually available for special needs kids is appalling. It is an absolute lie that supports exist for all learners in state schools.

      • RedLogix 4.2.1

        To which my response is – bullshit. The best places for kids with disabilities are usually outside of the state school system. If, as Chris pointed out above, you can afford or organise it.

      • RedLogix 4.2.2

        My response to Hipkins that is … not to Belladonna.

  5. dv 5

    Jim Hubbard cartoon for June 16, 2022

    Like this
    Stuff.

  6. AB 6

    A discussion with Peter Wadhams on how to remove billions of tons of CO2 and methane from the atmosphere or the oceans (where it is then naturally replaced from the atmosphere). It's 6 months old but interesting nonetheless. Short take is:

    • removal technologies will be needed because emissions reductions alone will not get us to a safe target quickly enough
    • they are also needed as a potential emergency response to catastrophic tipping point events – especially a sudden release of billions of tons of methane now locked up in frozen methane hydrates that will be released as the Arctic Ocean warms
    • there are several promising technologies but progress is too slow at the moment and others (such as tree planting) that are useful but are not a panacea because they cannot be done at the scale required due to physical limits.
    • the best solution will look like a combination of things, none in itself a panacea, along with emissions reduction

    Some of us will have concerns about how such technologies get used, who owns them, who profits from and whether they represent the greatest opportunity in the history of humanity for wealth extraction from the state and from ordinary people by corporations. And also , that the promise of these technologies will be a temptation for governments to not pursue emissions reduction stringently enough.

    But we can't reject these technologies out of hand, because if Wadhams is right, we'll need something.

    • In Vino 6.1

      I sympathise, but don't believe it will happen. No will-power.

      The conservative Right are still believing 'scientists' who questioned the truth of man-made global warming. They are comfortable in their mansions, and don't really see why they should be concerned. These people have power in controlling the media.

      Combine them with the knucklehead Groundswell types who are emotionally triggered by trivia and who think all Greens are Loonies..

      A lack of education and understanding among our majority (who prefer TV Cooking Contests) will paralyse such intellectual heroes who do their best to save us from the 6th great extinction,

  7. newsense 7

    Is there a site out there that has a good overview of progressive politics going ahead?

    Conservatives are re-running George Osborne’s and the 1990s greatest hits and it doesn’t have to make sense.

    In Britain progressive politics seem to be a way to allow money laundering with the guy in charge claiming a greater sense of decency.

    In the 90s we were sold high unemployment as a way of providing low inflation. For the younger voters a low inflation environment is all they’ve known. Will the end of the inflation era simply see a lot more punching down and regression of rights? What is progressive politics in this situation?

    Conservative politics are about protecting entrenched interests and that’s an easy sell. We’ll let you keep what you got, and maybe get a little more.

    What is the sell of progressive politics in this environment? Where can I read about a progressive future amongst the American tech dystopias and the Russian and Chinese saber rattling and expanding influence? India and Brazil too, don’t seem likely to become world leaders in progressive values.

    For now democratic economies are larger than non-democratic, but it’s not democracies that are growing more powerful.

    Australia, or at least the parts of it on fire or under water, is belatedly requiring climate action. Though what a Labor majority will do without relying on the Greens or Teals is unclear.

    In New Zealand I can only see Morgan Godfrey as a coherent new commentator. The unevolved dregs of the Rogernomics era get too much play.

    It feels like Steven Joyce has a base ideology that is more solid than that of the government’s and their core vote.

    Because having an ideology helps. Why are we doing what we’re doing? To buy a house, to buy a stake. We are so so far from keeping our grandparents lifestyles for our children. In the cities we need to protect our parks, our open spaces as we lose back gardens. Protect our public space from internet incursion. Keep a sense of NZ as the 6pm news joins the dinosaurs.

    Where does the vibrancy come from? We can’t just rely on having a PM who is in a good spot in her life with her young family, there has to be something more to believe in and to be part of. It all seems a very patchy sail to hoist against these headwinds.

    It’s a cultural thing. I guess we all want to be the goodies in the film of our life and world?

    • Chris 7.1

      Maybe google "site good overview progressive politics" and see what comes up?

      • newsense 7.1.1

        Thought I’d ask the intellectuals on here to see who were just bored and prolific RW trolls. If you’re commenting here you’ve probably got some impetus to do so.

        • Chris 7.1.1.1

          Fuck me. Your moniker precedes you.

          • newsense 7.1.1.1.1

            Not a case of nominative determinism as such, more a lack of false advertising: if you’d understood beforehand you’d have saved time on your comment.

            Overall I’m much more pessimistic looking ahead than I was. I’m not sure the things I used to believe in still help and I wondered, from a branch of politics latterly given to hope or a vision of what might be, if there’s something more in the philosophical pipeline than the parable of a couple of rats fighting over a urinal cake, differentiated by one wearing chinos.

            Still, Penny Wong and Nanaia Mahuta meeting today had some of that symbolism. Two Pacific nations moving toward a post-colonial identity under the increased international prominence of their region. Don’t mention the cricket. Is there anything of similar future-looking symbolism available in our politics, given present and near present shock changes occurring?

            • Robert Guyton 7.1.1.1.1.1

              "a couple of rats fighting over a urinal cake"

              So good!

              • newsense

                Not mine.
                Though I much prefer what Thatcher had to say about jungle canyon rope bridges. It was what belatedly led me, despite having watched a billion war movies and docos featuring Churchill, to find out years later that he’d been turfed out by the British people before the end of the war.

    • Ad 7.2

      The most reliable one is still The Guardian.

      Don't have to agree with them, and they have a British framing to many things, but that team have been around for a long time, generally employ actual reporters, have a loyal and independently funded team, and are pretty distinct from the Murdoch, Sky, Fox, BBCnews, and the smaller regional efforts.

      I don't see a close equivalent to The Standard in Australia.

      • newsense 7.2.1

        Oh dear, is that it?

        I watch the odd Jonathan Pie, but he’s disaffected youff, given to viscious lamentation, but not searching for Camelots…

        The Labour Party tends to be fairly useless unless there is a strong and energised core electorate critiquing them, as they become too close to the Nats and the swing voters go, well if you’re all the same anyway…

        Just trying to figure out what a modern equivalent of the families who grew up with a portrait of Mickey Savage on the wall would be doing now. Ashley Bloomfield? A non-aligned savior?

  8. Blade 8

    Talkback interviews Auckland mayoral candidate Leo Molloy. He wants to sack the wokeisters. And those in roles only because of wokism. All new recruits will be 5% better all round. When challenged that the mayor doesn't have those powers, he countered by saying the mayor has a say in all staff appointments, and that the mayor sets the agenda for his council.

    I think Molloy deep down understands he won't be doing much hiring and firing. But he does set the tone for his council if elected. And I'm sure nothing wokisters and culture vultures suggests will receive much of a hearing. That's what we need at present.

    He also should understand just because he doesn't like wokism, doesn't mean he can divorce himself from it completely. Calling Chlöe Swarbrick detached from reality may go down well with Righties like me, but the media who is staffed with many Chloe clones may take a dimmer view. He would then have to watch his every step.

    AT -1:10:40

    https://omny.fm/shows/today-mornings/full-show-16-6-2022?in_playlist=today-mornings!duncan-garner-today-catch-up

    • Sacha 8.1

      The guy is another braying old fool, and will attract support accordingly.

      • Blade 8.1.1

        Declared candidates:

        • Viv Beck
        • Gary Brown
        • Wayne Brown
        • Efeso Collins
        • Ted Johnston
        • Jake Law
        • John Lehmann
        • Craig Lord, mayoral candidate
        • Leo Molloy, businessman.
        • Michael Morris, Animal Justice Auckland.
        • newsense 8.1.1.1

          So when you say right wing you mean you’re a signed on culture warrior? Here to beat antifa etc? Or just quote those who are?

          • Blade 8.1.1.1.1

            You have the wrong address. Look elsewhere.

            • newsense 8.1.1.1.1.1

              I mean genuinely asking. So you aren’t a culture warrior? Or don’t identify that way?

              • Blade

                No, I'm a freedom warrior. I want to be free from politics, religion and culture.

                However, we live in a regulated society, so I support the political parties that give me a modicum of freedom; that aren't so intrusive. That's the Right. I'm a Rightie.

                I posted the Leo Molloy comment because it MAY be a indicator of where NZ is politically at the moment. If Molloy is elected ( unlikely), it'll mean Labour may as well call an early election now. That is looking more likely by the day, regardless.

                https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/460930/who-wants-to-be-auckland-s-mayor

                Quote: From Molloy.

                ''When it comes to Collins, he is far more effusive, saying he would consider offering him the deputy mayoralty if he was to win the main job.

                "I think he should have been given the opportunity to run on the Labour ticket and it's a disgrace that they chose to ignore the southside of town."

                • newsense

                  Do you get compensated for posting here at all?

                  And do you feel wokeism is a general problem in Auckland?
                  How would you define wokeism in an NZ context?

                  Did you feel taking vaccination against Covid was an issue for freedom warriors?

                  Do you feel that housing being unaffordable to rent or buy is an issue for freedom warriors?

                  Do you have any opinions about Oliver Driver’s acting career?

                  How many churches are there in heaven?

                  • Robert Guyton

                    Blade wants to ban; ban ban ban.

                    Oh dear!

                  • Blade

                    But..but.. I thought you were sincere…silly me.

                    ''I mean genuinely asking. So you aren’t a culture warrior? Or don’t identify that way?''

                    Do you think Robbo Hood was spinning faster than a top today?

                    Is the brain drain about to become headlines?

                    Can Chris curb violence?

                    How come Poto got the chop and not Mahuta?

                    Can the second quarter stabilise our economy or are we heading for a recession?

                    Is Roberts keyboard jammed? Do we care?

                    How come I haven't be threatened with getting banned lately?

                    No-sense…I wouldn't have a clue.laugh

                    • Robert Guyton

                      When sewers overflow, the environment suffers.

                    • newsense

                      I was being sincere.

                      What do you mean by wokeism? I wanna give all those wokeists a chance to prepare. Also I want to educate myself.

                      As for freedom, it’s a genuine question with there being all kinds of rights available to people. It’s also an incredibly misused expression internationally.

                  • Sacha

                    speed dating 🙂

          • I Feel Love 8.1.1.1.2

            Lol NS, love it. It's only 'identity politics' when the 'woke' do it.

    • The Al1en 8.2

      Molloy is a fuck nugget attempting to appeal to act voting fuck nuggets and dissafected nat fuck nuggets.

      Blaming media "wokeisters" in advance for his failure is amusing as it is predictable.

      • Blade 8.2.1

        Don't hold back. Let that dislike and angst out.

        • The Al1en 8.2.1.1

          Saves me from getting up to whatever it is you do on here all day

          lol

          • Robert Guyton 8.2.1.1.1

            It's tiresome, isn't it!

            Points though, to the value of the site and the effectiveness and clear-sightedness of the TS-supportive commenters here.

            Little wonder then, that we have attracted attention of this "*calibre"

            *(.17 HMR).

          • Blade 8.2.1.1.2

            Do on here all day?

    • Visubversa 8.3

      Molloy does not like workers either. He was not a stranger to the Employment Tribunal in the days when I worked there.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 8.4

      Wokisters (?), culture vultures and Chlöe clones are conscientious voters – some are even influencers. You're right to wonder whether Molloy understands this.

      Welcome to Leo Land: the strange world of Leo Molloy [24 Oct 2021]
      The Guardian,” he [Molloy] says contemptuously, “wrote a story which said ‘he even has hair like Trump’. How the f… do I have hair like Trump? All my hair is my own, and it’s not even dyed orange. It’s au naturel​, and it grows in about a week. The only thing I have in common with Trump is there is plenty of it, though he doesn’t have as much body as mine.

      Molloy once spent $8,000 installing a bust of Trump in the men’s urinals at a bar he owned in Queenstown.

      New Zealand “lefts” and unions promote pro-business mayoral candidates in Auckland [26 March 2022]
      In an online video posted this week, Molloy proposed installing a system to “spray cold water” on homeless people, who he called “losers,” to prevent them from “congregating” in the city at night.

      Taking his lead from Mallard? If it walks like a duck…

      Collins and the other Auckland mayoral candidates better watch out!

      Ted Johnston plans to “crush the other candidates” when he begins giving public speeches. [16 June 2022]

      I thought it was Crusher Collins, not Crusher Johnston wink

    • Robert Guyton 8.5

      " He wants to sack…"

      There ya go.

      In a nutshell.

      Ban, ban, ban.

  9. tc 9

    First time in 20 years Oz electricity regulator (AEMO) has simply stopped the market.

    Generators told to not exceed $300 per MwH stopped producing as they couldn't 'profit' at that limit.

    Normally AEMO provides the diff but at 20% it knew the market had FAILED and now has the visibility to be able to bring generation on when required.

    Sound familiar except we get the blackouts as nobody steps in.

  10. Sacha 10

    History rhymes.

  11. Blade 11

    Guys, I have said time and again, Scandinavian style justice will not work in NZ because we have a huge underclass that has a different mindset and culture compared with rest of NZ. Here's an example. This is third world stuff that happens on a regular basis.

    Warning: Some may find the violence confronting.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/06/auckland-s-tamaki-college-addresses-very-disturbing-video-of-assault-believed-to-involve-members-of-its-community.html

    • joe90 11.1

      Yeah, cos white first-worlders would never do anything like that.

      /

      • Blade 11.1.1

        White people fighting …no, I don't believe it!!!

        Of course context is important. In your rush to point score you may have missed a few of those.

        You may like to reflect on your fate should you run into them on the street. Maybe you are wearing the wrong colours. Maybe you disrespected their mana. Maybe you were in their way.

        But I'm sure you will have things under control. You da man.

        • joe90 11.1.1.1

          You're seem to be a frightened little rabbit, sport. Do tell the group about it…

          • Blade 11.1.1.1.1

            Why should I be frightened. I've had dental surgery and got some real teeth. A good nights sleep and I'm roaring to go.

            Do tell the group what? That another Lefty has bit the dust broken heart
            You da man.

        • Sacha 11.1.1.2

          'Anyone around here got an empty chair?'

  12. who read todays Wairapa Times Age. It had a full page editorial by one JOhn Macdonald, newstalk zb chch mornings, who let fly with a tirade and a diatribe about Trevor Mallard. It was a disgusting piece of crap and any syndicated editor in NZ who reprints this nastiness should be dammed ashamed of themselves. It likes all the loudmouth tories in NZ have a bully pulpit in the provincial rags to do down the "GUBMINT". time to start holding these shockers to account.

  13. Blade 13

    Talkback back is picking up an incident at Seaview tunnel? Came in halfway through so I'm not sure of my facts.

  14. weka 14

    Mod note, please read: it’s not ok to dox commenters, nor expect them to dox themselves. If you think someone is using a sock puppet account or a new account to skirt a ban please talk to the mods.

    We generally expect people to pick a name and stick to it. Sometimes people change their handle after being away for a period of time. Sometimes they forget their handle, or want to leave a commenting history behind, or have real life reasons to change. I consider trying to guess people’s former or alt handles to be a form of doxxing because you cannot know the back story. If you have a concern please talk to a mod by replying to one of their comments (this way we will see it).

    Please stop accusing other people of trolling. It just leads to trolling and flaming. Make the political points, and if you don’t like someone’s behaviour consider talking to other commenters instead. Or describe the behaviour you think is a problem rather than just throwing out accusations. That way we will know what you mean.

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