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Open mike 16/02/2014

Written By: - Date published: 7:04 am, February 16th, 2014 - 178 comments
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178 comments on “Open mike 16/02/2014 ”

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  1. karol 1
    16 February 2014 at 7:25 am

    Good to see an MSM article that focuses on the actual working poor. In comparison there’s been some articles (especially on the NZ Herald) where they use some of the middle-class and least precarious of the precariat to represent the least well off.

    This Stuff article focuses on a couple of families struggling with little or no pay rises: “Rock stars or roadies?” – ref to NZ’s (alleged) rock star economy.

    The article adds in some stats from Helen Kelly & the CTU:

    Tairawhiti and Manson are not alone – almost half of workers did not receive a pay rise last year, according to the latest Fairfax Media-Ipsos poll.

    For the majority (40 per cent) the increase was between 1 and 2 per cent. One in five got 3-4 per cent, and a quarter of us picked up 5 per cent or higher.

    Despite forestry and dairying booming, driven by strong demand out of China, wages are low – and stagnant – in these industries, according to the Council of Trade Unions.

    “Trickle down? Only the shit trickles down on a dairy farm,” says president Helen Kelly, who says it is “extraordinary” that 300,000 workers are on or near the minimum wage of $13.75 an hour.

    “This excuse ‘that it is all we can afford’ . . . you can’t use it in dairy, forestry, supermarkets – who are making a fortune – and you can’t use it in banks. Some of our industries that pay the lowest wages are the most profitable. It is not a coincidence.”

    Unfortunately the article then goes on to an optimistic note, with quotes from Phil O’Reilly and a focus on a graduate on the up.

    • BM 1.1
      16 February 2014 at 7:48 am

      Just had a read of that.
      Let me guess, the families are union members Helen Kelly put forward to try and bad mouth National because It certainly reads like that.

      I seriously doubt the level of “struggle” these people are “suffering”.

      If the unions are going to do these stories of woe, don’t use the $5 a bottle of milk story, it’s nonsense.

      • andy (the other one) 1.1.1
        16 February 2014 at 8:02 am

        I also like to put my fingers in my ears and say ‘lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala!!!’, very loudly when I get told something I don’t want to hear.

        • idlegus 1.1.1.1
          16 February 2014 at 9:28 am

          i like the success story they include at the end, he gets help from his parents to make ends meet, but hes confident about the future. ok. & phil oreilly, who supports working for families topping up poor pay.

          • Tracey 1.1.1.1.1
            16 February 2014 at 10:33 am

            So its a good economic outlook if your parents can afford to bail you out until the econony gets… whT? Gooder?

          • bad12 1.1.1.1.2
            16 February 2014 at 10:45 am

            Reminds me of something i listened to on RadioNZ National a week or month ago, out of England the story was highlighting the fact that the young were leaving home in pursuit of the Uni degree as usual,

            Having gained the degree tho, with the price of property over there, both to rent and to buy, more and more of them, even with good employment,were being forced back to live with mum and dad…

      • Tracey 1.1.2
        16 February 2014 at 10:32 am

        And ceos never lie and bankers never get foung guilty of deceipt.

        Do you play golf?

      • tricledrown 1.1.3
        16 February 2014 at 11:30 am

        Big Mouth
        BadMouthing
        Your right wings effort at balanced News.
        The very same polls you were crowing about yesterday has more information than you can handle Blinkered Monetarist.
        World wide since the GFC the only people who have benefited are the top 10 or 20%.
        These are Banksters Capital gaingsters(tax free of course) CEO’s
        Have all done extemely well.
        While the other 80% havehad to bite the bullet.
        And the bottom 20% are doing it really tough as well as being used as a distraction by the sadistic elite blaming them for the ills creayed by the Ponzi scheming of the elite who put us in this situation.

      • David H 1.1.4
        16 February 2014 at 4:51 pm

        BM I May get banned for this..

        But why don’t you just FUCK OFF!

        I am just so sick of your negativity!

      • karol 1.1.5
        16 February 2014 at 9:45 pm

        Actually, it isn’t. I don’t buy milk myself, but, I checked around online: while there are some cheaper buys if you shop around, $5.00 for a 2 litre bottle of milk seems fairly average.

        February 2014: 1 litre of milk average price – 2.42 NZ$

        This website has it a $2.65 per 1 litre.

        And the example in the article was comparing milk prices with cheap fizzy drinks.

        • BM 1.1.5.1
          17 February 2014 at 8:28 am

          Go into any dairy in NZ, 2 liters for $3.50, or $6.50 for 2x 2 liters been like that for years.

          Even supermarkets are doing their house brands for roughly the same price, the only milk around $5.00 is your expensive Anchor blends.

          • Tracey 1.1.5.1.1
            17 February 2014 at 8:40 am

            Bill english… rning and effectively acknowledge that Michael Cullen had done something right in his stewardship of the Government’s finances in the past nine years.

            Having condemned his predecessor for many years for paying off debt too quickly, English said: “I want to stress that New Zealand starts from a reasonable position in dealing with the uncertainty of our economic outlook.”

            “In New Zealand we have room to respond. This is the rainy day that Government has been saving up for,” he told reporters at the Treasury briefing on the state of the economy and forecasts.

            English pointed to a graph of the debt track since 1972 and projected five years out from today.

            The recent low was 17 per cent of GDP and the ghastly projection for 2013 is 33.1 per cent and possibly worse, under what Treasury calls a “downside scenario” – 38.6 per cent.

            Unemployment is forecast to rise to 6.4 per cent in 2010 and deficits forecast to be $2.4 billion to $3.5 billion larger over the 2010 to 2013 years than forecast just before the election.

            In the midst of the horrible outlook and depressing uncertainty about how bad it might get, English was forced to change his message about his inheritance from Labour because it was more important to inject some sense of positivity into the situation. He needed to do it for both political reasons and for real financial reasons.

            As Labour finance spokesman David Cunliffe said yesterday, too much negativity could drive confidence down even further.

            Of the plan that Cunliffe demanded of English today, the Finance Minister said: “The plan in essence is quite simple, that is to maintain significant short-term stimulus in the economy, to protect people from the sharp edge of recession and secondly to get on with the job of raising our longer term growth prospects…with some urgency.”

            Tax cuts are on the way; decisions will be made in the New Year on which infrastructure projects will be brought forward and English and Prime Minister John Key will be meeting chief executives of Government departments this afternoon to give them the bad news: don’t ask for any more money in Budget 2009 because you won’t get it.

    • Chooky 1.2
      16 February 2014 at 9:59 am

      @ karol…as others have been saying on this site Labour is not preforming well in advocating for its core constituents………the working poor, beneficiaries, children…those struggling at the bottom of the economic heap…imo for what it is worth:

      Labour needs to be taking serious professional advice from a top Advertising/PR Agency on how to get this message about the NACT poor across;

      ( no time now to be sweet and middle class…Labour needs to get mean and take the gloves off and punch out Nact)

      The concept of Key as a REPTILE is brilliant!……it should be played for all its worth visually and verbally …ie concept /visuals/posters /talk of a Reptile leading a Reptilian Nact Party which is sucking NZ dry!!!! …

      ( one of those old fashioned 1950s muted colour posters)……….a Reptile octopus with many arms….eg. 1.) one arm squeezing the working poor to death 2) killing beneficiaries 3.) sucking the life blood from children 4.)another could be sucking the life out of NZ State education with Charter Schools …

      Lets face it…..Sue Morroney ( Social Development ) and Jacinda Adern ( Children) are not cutting the mustard against Paula Bennett( and in comparison with Sue Braford and Metiria Turei)

      …they may know a lot but Labour needs HIGH PROFILE SPOKESPEOPLE on these CORE issues of Labour ….not too late to change and get people who are not afraid to get nasty, get their hands dirty, swing the lead…. and are CREDIBLE to the struggling poor!!!!( ie look like they have been there or have relatives who are there!) ….Spokespeople who are CAPABLE of ATTRACTING MEDIA ATTENTION like Shane Jones has recently

      …what about Louisa Wall ( Social Development ) and Poto Williams ( Children)…?….or any other Passionate MPS willing to take on and do what Shane Jones is doing?.

      • Chooky 1.2.1
        16 February 2014 at 10:14 am

        worth repeating this comment from Tombstone yesterday

        Tombstone 25
        15 February 2014 at 9:39 pm
        … Labour’s brand is boring. It’s just National in red. Create a brand / visual campaign that really gets people excited and watch what happens. Suddenly people become interested in the message because they like what they see or they feel compelled to understand the message behind what they’re seeing. Like a photograph that speaks a thousand words – something that can’t be denied. Reality caught in a single shot. Powerful images without the need to cover them in statistics – the image speaks for itself. I live in Christchurch. I survived the quakes. I see the heartache every day that surrounds me and it’s not something that can be described in mere words but a single photograph can on the other hand be more powerful than the sum of all words combined. I work as a freelance graphic artist in my free time and do a lot of low brow art and so I guess I tend to see the world from a very visual perspective and the weak point I see in the National Party is Brand Key – that is the weak point in their armor. That is where you drive the spear home. Fuck the MSM. Let them gorge themselves on Key’s bullshit. What counts most is that you get the people excited and wanting more. Do that and the MSM will follow. Bye bye Key. Bye bye National.

        • Sacha 1.2.1.1
          16 February 2014 at 2:29 pm

          Because attacking John Key worked so well for the left in the last two elections. Need smarter strategy than that.

          • Chooky 1.2.1.1.1
            16 February 2014 at 4:49 pm

            @ Sacha …the NACTs hounded Helen Clark and Winston Peters mercilessly

            ….because they knew they were the Labour Governments greatest political assets…and if they could undermine them they could WIN

            …there were no holds barred as they went out like a pack of ferocious dogs to destroy the Queen on the chessboard and her Knight

            ….Labour Party counter attack was a patsy in comparison…and a patsy protecting their Queen and Knight

          • David H 1.2.1.1.2
            16 February 2014 at 4:53 pm

            Cunliffe just needs to keep on Message. Shonkey will (if left alone) just self destruct

            • Chooky 1.2.1.1.2.1
              16 February 2014 at 5:07 pm

              hope so….you may be right…..i dont think Winnie will be going with John Key….after being followed by Key’s spies to MR Dotcoms house

      • Chooky 1.2.2
        16 February 2014 at 10:21 am

        NACT is Reptile Octopus with Many EYES…..which has and is sucking out the life blood of NZs economy…..STATE ASSETS!….WATER!….TOURISM!…BIG DEBTS ..unneccessary PRIVATISED MOTORWAYS

        ….it disguises itself and its real intentions by muddying the waters with its inky smoke screens and flag waving diversions

        …it is a cunning REPTILIAN PREDATOR

        • McFlock 1.2.2.1
          16 February 2014 at 2:12 pm

          As soon as labour plays the man rather than the ball by calling key a reptile, they lose the high ground.

          Doesn’t stop individuals from helping to make it a meme, though.

          • kenny 1.2.2.1.1
            16 February 2014 at 2:45 pm

            Bullshit, what high ground, do you think Key cares about the high ground – Key needs to be shown for what he is; how else do you do that without getting personal? The problem is Labour has NOT played the man enough. Hound him constantly until he breaks and shows more of his true colours.

            The time for being nice to Key is long gone. Gloves off time.Time to get serious if you want to win the election.

            Agree about the need for ‘street fighters’ as shadow ministers/portfolio holders.

            • srylands 1.2.2.1.1.1
              16 February 2014 at 3:18 pm

              “The problem is Labour has NOT played the man enough.”

              If the left do this, they will lose the election. How can you not see that? John Key is immensely popular, and thoroughly likable. He is the kind of guy people just want to be around.

              Focus on policies that will deliver prosperity. Otherwise this election is lost for you already. Ipredict stocks on “PM Labour” have been sliding again this week. And before someone tells me this is all a conspiracy by one rich guy to drive down the stock, the order book shows otherwise. The stock is being dumped by small traders in droves.

              • bad12 …
                16 February 2014 at 3:51 pm

                SSLands, ”stocks on PM Labour have been sliding”, you really are a fucking brainless fucking idiot aren’t you,

                What was ex-PM Helen Clark’s polled popularity befor She became a 3 term Prime Minister, 3 or 6%, or something ridiculously s low,

                If you place an ounce of faith in the ability of the gambling sit you refer to as being in any way accurate you would have to add that faith in accuracy to all the other gambles/predictions on that site,

                Be a good little dear wont you and trot of back there and have a good read of the Party %’s which last time i had a squizz had National polling 42%, Labour 33%, Green 10% and for a gut-busting screamer DotComs Internet Party 8%,

                Once you have had the little squizz over there SSLands, stay there, your masterbating all over these pages is at the least unseemly…

              • Chooky …
                16 February 2014 at 4:37 pm

                @ srylands

                ““The problem is Labour has NOT played the man enough.”

                If the left do this, they will lose the election. How can you not see that? John Key is immensely popular, and thoroughly likable. He is the kind of guy people just want to be around”

                …if you say this then the opposite must st be the case…i am encouraged this is the way to go

              • Murray Olsen …
                16 February 2014 at 6:21 pm

                SSLands, please do not confuse your creepy desires to be around Key, preferably on you knees, with any desire felt by most people.

            • McFlock 1.2.2.1.1.2
              16 February 2014 at 3:18 pm

              If you lie with hogs, you get covered in shit.

              • Chooky …
                16 February 2014 at 5:03 pm

                @ McFlock…not talking about lying with hogs ….rather ST George spearing an Octopus Reptilian NACT Party that has NZ in its grip

                ….could be wrong….but i do think Labour needs to get a professional Adevertisng/PR Agency to give professional independent advice on how to get their message out there…because it doesn’t seem as if it is working

                btw ….i thought you were a rather good hog wrestler with Chris 73…..it was gobsmackingly awe inspiring the insults on yesterdays Open Mike

                • McFlock …
                  16 February 2014 at 5:43 pm

                  It’s on the level of traditional propaganda. Not something the next government should be doing, IMO – that’s why the nactoids use the cetacean for it, and why key admitting a connection between himself and the cetacean was an error.

                  Me, I’m not connected with labgrns. And I did like “fustilarian”.

            • McFlock 1.2.2.1.1.3
              16 February 2014 at 3:34 pm

              actually, let me expand on that for a bit.

              Let’s say key is a reptilian overlord who eats babies. Currently, a whole chunk of people still like him. That means that they either don’t know or don’t care. But he’s pretty obviously a reptile (isn’t one for blinking too much), so the people who don’t know are in denial.

              They won’t be persuaded by anyone else that key is a reptile.

              They might see it for themselves and be revolted, though.

              So keep applying pressure on issues and so on, so he gets stressed and the mask slips, but calling him a reptile would just A) make you as bad as the stalkers in the other camp; and B) make the deniers entrench further into their position.

          • Rosie 1.2.2.1.2
            16 February 2014 at 3:31 pm

            Excellent lols McFlock 🙂

          • Chooky 1.2.2.1.3
            16 February 2014 at 4:26 pm

            @ McFlock…..i didnt know you were sweet with middle class refined sensibilities

            ….i am thinking more of an octopus style reptile with many eyes and arms crushing the living blood and spirit out of things…more visual than verbal ….eg old fashioned 1950s style monotone posters to be stuck to lamp posts and reach those who dont watch tv or read newspapers

      • Tracey 1.2.3
        16 February 2014 at 10:36 am

        A reptile is cold blooded… thats the important bit

        • Chooky 1.2.3.1
          16 February 2014 at 11:28 am

          Yes COLD BLOODED!..is the feeling

          Rino Tirikatene and Meke Whaitiri are other potential spokespeople for these crucial Labour campaign Spokesperson roles

          …it is no use waiting until after the election …it important to get kicking with the toughest boots into the fracas now ( there are 800,000 votes to woo)

          …it should approached professionally ( ie an outside agency should decide … like an actor casting agency ) …no cronyism in the hunt for the best charismatic spokespeople that the voters can IDENTIFY with.

          ( this is no bad reflection on policy making skills which are equally important ….but lets be frank they are completely different skills and it is rare to get them in the same person)

      • karol 1.2.4
        16 February 2014 at 5:36 pm

        Chooky @ 9.59 am, I think maybe you’ve mistaken me for a Labour Party Member and/or voter or an election campaign strategist.

        I’m none of those things, nor am I a member of any political party. I will leave it to the Labour Partyy – its members, and those able to provide excellent advice, to get their campaign in order.

        Winning at all costs, to end up with just Nat lite in government is not a good prospect. There needs to be a multi-pronged approach, in diverse ways.

        I’m with what Bill says on the front page of his “Positive Things” post today:

        Change becomes embedded when it emanates from and across many quarters and traditions.

        Grass roots change, changes in the media (entertainment as well as serious media) etc are needed. I am very much behind the kinds of grass roots actions that Sue Bradford has been involved in. And Turei is one of the few current MPs who have come from a workign class background – our parliament needs more from diverse low income backgrounds.

        The media needs on-going critique and challenges – not just so they change, but so that more people become aware of the, often subtle, ways the media can be politically slanted.

        That’s what I was doing with my comment on the above Stuff article. Highlighting that it was at least an improvement on too many other articles of seen on Stuff and the NZ Herald’s website – but also indicating one of its shortcomings.

        • Chooky 1.2.4.1
          16 February 2014 at 7:52 pm

          @karol

          no i did not mistake you for those…i know you vote Green

          …i just saw an opportunity( presumptuous and forward of me i know) to help Labour with is PR…. ha ha….but seems like others here do not agree…although some do! …..that Labour is not doing well with its PR

          • karol 1.2.4.1.1
            16 February 2014 at 8:08 pm

            Ah. Sneaky, Chooky. I’m more concerned about the overall focus of parliamentary Labour. Until they clearly have shifted away from soft neoliberalism, and have less managerial type MPs, I may consider voting for them again – the problems go deepr than their PR, I think.

        • ecossemaid 1.2.4.2
          16 February 2014 at 9:34 pm

          Karol I seem to have mistaken you for someone who gives a shit..

          [deleted]

          [lprent: Don’t abuse the authors – that is policy and always a bad mistake.

          I’d have to say that you remind me of a vicariously shared dose of thrush and about as useful to the left. Just a pain to have around because of frustrated scratching, and a lot of whining. I’d point out that I’ve been a member of Labour party for about 35 years and volunteered for them for even longer. So you’re getting the benefit of an opinion by a genuine Labour party member – in case you think that being a party member is still important after I’ve explained exactly how much of a jerk you look to me.

          I’ve helped organise many moderately large campaigns for the NZLP. Typically usually less than a third of the volunteers have been NZLP members. I’d have to say that much of the time that many of the volunteers from outside the party are more useful than the ones who bore the hell out of me at NZLP meetings. That is why all parties play nice to people who are active even when they are not members. You never know when you might need them.

          So having some moronic fuckwit like yourself coming along and acting holier than thou about people who are active just makes me want to kick your arse off this site as being just another useless jerkoff more concerned with pleasuring yourself than doing any actual work. Being more concerned about your own self-righteousness than doing anything of any use is a characteristic of a person that I’d prefer not to be in any organisation I’m helping. Basically you impress me as being a waste of bandwidth with a ego backed by shallow opinions and a skill at being supremely stupid.

          Of course that is just my opinion. But it would also be the opinion of damn near every other activist from almost any political party or activist group that I have ever worked with.

          Banned for 3 weeks for stupidity and I’d advise you to read the policy so I don’t have to notice you again. ]

          • Chooky 1.2.4.2.1
            17 February 2014 at 8:59 am

            ooops sorry to have caused trouble for ecossemaid…..i do think there are many people out there who are genuinely frustrated with Labour’s fighting PR image though

            ….however we can always vote Green or Mana…and it will have the same end result

    • Jimmie 1.3
      16 February 2014 at 11:20 am

      Seriously? What would Hellen Kelly know?

      We have 4 staff on our dairy farm.

      Lowest paid is around $38K + free house + free meat/milk
      Highest paid is $47K + free house + free meat/milk + 3 free yearling bulls reared

      All of them have 1 hour breakfast breaks, + 1 & 1/2 hour lunch breaks.

      They work the equivalent of 5 & 1/3 days a week, no more than 9 hours in a day (5 hours for week end days)

      Can’t tell me that employment on dairy farms has no trickle down affect.

      The couple we had working for us last season drove an 2005 Ford XR8 and bought themselves a nice 14ft boat and went fishing on most of their days off.

      Our 2ic this year we are helping to step up into either managing or share milking next year (giving her financial and business backing in order to do this)

      So perhaps Ms Kelly’s pushing of a dairying stereotype of rich farm owners and destitute workers is nothing more than propaganda to push her own political/union barrow.

      Oh and yes, these conditions of employment were all negotiated between us and our staff – no union required.

      • Molly 1.3.1
        16 February 2014 at 11:34 am

        Or – possibly – other farms are run differently from yours and so the workers with different experiences are those engaging with Helen Kelly?

        Perhaps your workers – while living within their means – via free house/milk – are purchasing items they can afford instead of those they can’t? – their own house, farm etc. Whilst your support for your 2ic means that you are aware of this and is admirable, it is an acknowledgement that this is true.

        You seem to be relating honestly your lived experiences as a farmer, but that does not automatically mean that those workers who report otherwise are dishonest.

        You are probably also likely to be aware of others in your farming community who are not as scrupulous – those are the ones whose workers needs advocates such as Helen Kelly.

        • Jimmie 1.3.1.1
          16 February 2014 at 11:56 am

          Seriously?

          So you are trying to tell me that they chose to buy the XR8 and boat simply because they could never buy a house?

          Rubbish. In this situation the money they put into the car and boat was more than enough to use as a deposit on a house.

          That wasn’t their goal. They wanted to drive a V8 and go fishing all the time. Full stop.
          I know coz they told me about it for the two years prior to buying them. I said to them they were better off buying a house and paying it off by renting it out while they lived rent free.

          But no fishing was calling them.

          • JanM 1.3.1.1.1
            16 February 2014 at 12:12 pm

            Jimmie, you sound like a hardworking and ethical businessman who has a good relationship with his staff and treats them with dignity and honesty. That’s really cool, and it’s very heartening to read. However, you know as well as I do that every profession (mine’s early childhood teaching, by the way) has the good, the bad and the ugly and farming is no exception. People working on farms are more isolated than most of the population and if they are poorly treated they need the support that a good union can give them. You don’t need to get defensive as though the whole farming industry is being damned – town/country relationships are bad enough as it is. 🙂

            • Jimmie 1.3.1.1.1.1
              16 February 2014 at 12:25 pm

              I agree with you. Just pisses me off when the like of Ms Kelly deliberately paint a negative picture of a whole industry to suit her own political agenda.

              The same when the msm (and the greens) go on about dairy farmers polluting waterways when the reality is that probably around 99% of dairy farmers dispose of farm effluent in a legal and sustainable manner.

              However when you have stories like the ferry in auckland discharging raw human effluent into the harbour nobody says anything or councils allow raw human effluent to discharge into the sea during rain storms – oh well can’t be helped.

              • weka …
                16 February 2014 at 1:20 pm

                “when the reality is that probably around 99% of dairy farmers dispose of farm effluent in a legal and sustainable manner.”

                [citation needed]

                I agree that it’s not good to damn all dairy farmers. But let’s not pretend that almost all are doing the right things, when all the evidence and our own eyes suggests otherwise.

              • Sacha …
                16 February 2014 at 2:31 pm

                *Most* dairy farmers currently pollute nearby waterways according to Fonterra et al’s own statistics. Nice try, bud.

              • Skinny …
                16 February 2014 at 5:06 pm

                I have to say farmer Jimmie Brown, while I agree not all you cockys are lousy employers, actually have a healthy respect with people working the land. The figure of 99% of farmers being clean is a stretch. I see unfenced waterways each and every week. Had a enough of it to tell the truth as a responsible Kiwi might need to start complaining to Fonterra shortly. The beef guys are alot worst as the law allows them to flaunt it.

                It’s high time it was a level playing field with buying meat too while I’m having a gripe. Why should you guys be allowed homekill, when the rest of us city folk can’t openly rock up buy a beast and get in processed the same as you, without having to jump thru hoops with the paddock holding blockade that is.

                And those rental cottages that some farmers rent out, (and they do) cash in back pocket. If only this Country had some decent investigative reporters left to show up life on the farm for the true blue National rural supporter is.

                Now you get back on here and give us some answers please cobber, as I know it will be the farm boy pulling tits, probably hosing the cow shit by now, while your setting up to BBQ those tender fat scotch fillets that we never get at pak’ n slave!

              • JanM …
                16 February 2014 at 5:11 pm

                Yes, I think all pollutants need the hard word + put on them – it’s not ok. I live in the country in Northland and a few kilometres down the road from me there’s a dry stock farm, heavily populated, and most of the cattle have free access to a stream – it makes my blood boil. No worse, though, than when I lived in Auckland and my friend’s dog came home dyed blue because he’d been in a creek polluted by industry. Makes a joke of clean and green, doesn’t it!
                I didn’t know about the ferry – that’s awful – mind you I’ve never liked Fuller’s business practices – I left Waiheke Island mainly because of them

                • Skinny …
                  16 February 2014 at 5:24 pm

                  Fonterra are well aware of Northland farmers polluting Jen, but hey Fonterra is just fArmers looking after farms, blind eye..wink wink. Anyway there are votes in it if Labour & the Green get their shit together. Nothing like a bit of ‘lucky farmer’ envy to get some city votes off National.

              • KJT …
                16 February 2014 at 6:02 pm

                Jimmie.

                I am happy to admit there are many farmers who pay their employees fairly, allow them reasonable time off, fence their waterways and deal with effluent properly.
                My son works for one.

                Usually the same ones do both.

                Good on you, for being one of them.

                If all employers were fair and reasonable, we would not need Unions.

                However from observation of a great many farms in our area, you are in the minority.
                The reality is more like half a dozen underpaid and overworked Filipino migrants, cows in the streams and the effluent pond emptied into the river at midnight.

                You should be pleased that people like Helen Kelly are holding dodgy operators feet to the fire. It prevents them from undercutting, and pricing out of business, the business’s of those, like you, who want to do things properly.

                Some of my long gone farming relatives, who took pride in how they looked after the land and waterways, would be disgusted if they could see those same waterways, now.

              • Flip …
                16 February 2014 at 8:41 pm

                Great to hear that you treat your workers well and dispose of waste in a way that is sustainable. (Not sure if that is in an environmentally sustainable way or not)

                But I would encourage you to talk with your farming mates and find out what their practices are and encourage them to practice good labour and environmental management as well.

          • Molly 1.3.1.1.2
            17 February 2014 at 12:06 am

            Mainly I was trying to point out that your anecdote does not accurately describe a whole industry practice.

            Also, good luck with your workers saving the required 20% deposit before even going looking for a mortgage on that income – and then being given one.

      • David H 1.3.2
        16 February 2014 at 4:59 pm

        Jimme. And your cows still shit, and pollute our rivers and streams. Makes them unsafe for our children to swim in, whilst you just chase the mighty dollar, and blindly kiss Key’s arse.

        Free housing and meat/milk FFS what a rort. That has to be worth what, at least 10k a year?

      • Helen Kelly 1.3.3
        16 February 2014 at 7:06 pm

        I hate to be mean Jimmie but your lowest paid worker then is on $14.61 per hour and the highest oon $18 which may just not be enough to save for a house even rent free. It is a great shame to me that this level of wage can now be defended as good in this country. On another point – the rent is not really “rent free” as I think it is part of the salary package but regardless, I have the Federated Farmers report which is an extensive survey of wages in the sector. $19.49 is the average hour rate (total value package inlcuding rent, meat, power, and other benefits included and even training) for the whole dairy farming workforce, with Dairy Assistant roles (the most common role) appearing to have stagnant wages since 2010 despite record milk prices and an average total value package of just $17.02 per hour. So maybe you pay a bit above the average but I wouldn’t go to bed feeling to smug about your generosity. The reality is that in one of our very productive sectors the wages are very low and expectations high. 54% of those surveyed had been in the job less than a year. I do hear from farm workers very distressed at their working conditions and I think the industry would greatly benefit from collective bargaining. No political or hidden agenda there my friend!

      • tricledrown 1.3.4
        16 February 2014 at 10:40 pm

        Jimmie your a gem but you are a rarity amongst dairy farmers I habe visited and worked on many dairy farms as well I have interviewed many dairy workers outside the work place 90% of those IN spoke to are being under paid made to work unpaid hours over and above hours contracted.
        Wage theft.
        Along with abusive treatment from sharemilkers.
        Animals on these farms are also mistreated.
        Wacked with alkathene pipes,left milking for to long on milking table damaging udders very common.
        Not seperating antibiotic treated cows.
        Not keeping rearing areas clean allowing cows to become infected with clyptosporidiam.
        Workers not vaccinated for clyptosporidium.
        Workets not provided with clean drinking water.
        Cows not rotated the full 35 days of fresh grass
        Pregnant cows left in paddocks without proper shelter and no feed.
        The list goes on.

  2. veutoviper 2
    16 February 2014 at 7:34 am

    Don’t want to seem flippant after Karol’s more serious comment, but I got a good laugh from Steve Braunias’ latest on Stuff this morning. before focusing on more weighty issues.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/blogs/opinion/9701026/The-secret-diary-of-Kim-Dotcom

  3. phillip ure 3
    16 February 2014 at 8:39 am

    do you like yr laffs with a dash of politics..?

    ..bill maher is yr man..

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/15/bill-maher-chris-christie_n_4794236.html?ref=topbar

    phillip ure..

  4. phillip ure 4
    16 February 2014 at 9:43 am

    it’s later than previously promised..

    ..but here is that porridge-redux recipie..

    (excerpt:..)

    “….and this all adds up to a really healthy breakfast –

    – that actually tastes/feels more like a comfort-dessert…

    ..and this is what makes it such a hit with kids..”

    http://whoar.co.nz/2014/commentwhoar-porridge-redux/

    (n.b..the instructions marked with an asterix..are v. important..(..and all guarantees/warranties are void..if ignored..)

    phillip ure..

  5. Morrissey 5
    16 February 2014 at 9:49 am

    Billy Bragg’s misplaced praise of Bruce Springsteen
    Radio NZ National, Sunday 16 February 2014

    Listeners to this morning’s Sunday programme no doubt enjoyed Richard Langstone’s interview with Billy Bragg. Most of it was actually very good, albeit a tad worshipful and slightly embarrassing because of that. Billy Bragg is a thoughtful and serious person, who has a lot of valuable things to say. However, one of his comments raises a question about his judgement of character. I sent the following email to Richard Langstone….

    Billy Bragg’s misplaced praise of Bruce Springsteen

    Dear Richard,

    Billy Bragg praised Bruce Springsteen as “a hero of mine”, but noted that he was “no Pete Seegar”, because he had not stood up to the House Un-American Activities Committee. This seems to imply that Springsteen would have stood up to HUAC if only he had had the opportunity.

    In fact, if Springsteen had any of the courage and integrity of people like Pete Seegar and Woody Guthrie, he would not have done THIS…..

    Yours sincerely,

    Morrissey Breen
    Northcote Point

    • marty mars 5.1
      16 February 2014 at 10:13 am

      I trust/believe billy bragg more than you moz therefore his praise is not misplaced at all. i think springsteen has had a positive influence and he started young…

      “In September 1979, Springsteen and the E Street Band joined the Musicians United for Safe Energy anti-nuclear power collective at Madison Square Garden for two nights, playing an abbreviated set while premiering two songs from his upcoming album. The subsequent No Nukes live album, as well as the following summer’s No Nukes documentary film, represented the first official recordings and footage of Springsteen’s fabled live act, as well as Springsteen’s first tentative dip into political involvement.”

      Ahhh the summer of 79… remember that one moz.

      • phillip ure 5.1.1
        16 February 2014 at 10:34 am

        @ morrissey..

        that’s a bit harsh isn’t it..?

        ..mix in some historical-context..eh..?

        ..’cos though disillusioned by them..myself and many others held onto the hope that once over the hurdle of re-election..that obama would go gangbusters..

        ..and do what he promised..

        …(and tho’ a fucken drone-head killer..obama still has time..(some..!..)

        ..and romney was the other option..?..really..?

        ..and as an aside..i predict obama will announce full federal legalisation of cannabis..

        ..shortly after the mid-term elections..later this yr..)

        ..so..in/with that context..

        ..i reckon ‘harsh’ describes yr springsteen-condemnation..

        ..(the song pretty much sucks tho’..

        ..springsteen-by-numbers..)

        ..phillip ure..

        • Morrissey 5.1.1.1
          16 February 2014 at 11:11 am

          Yes Phillip, just like you did, I hoped for Obama to defeat the unspeakable alternative in 2012. It was very much a case of the lesser of two evils.

          • Te Reo Putake 5.1.1.1.1
            16 February 2014 at 11:56 am

            The evil of two lessers?

            Pete Seeger supported Obama, by the way, which kinda renders your email to RNZ a little null and void. He even shared the stage with Springsteen at Obama’s inauguration which makes your line about courage and conviction unintentionally funny. Close, but no Seegar.

            • Rogue Trooper 5.1.1.1.1.1
              16 February 2014 at 1:05 pm

              😎

            • Morrissey 5.1.1.1.1.2
              16 February 2014 at 1:50 pm

              Is that at the 2009 inauguration or the 2013 one? You could forgive people—naïve and poorly informed people like Hollywood “liberals” and TV talkback hosts—who obviously didn’t know anything about Obama, being full of hope in early 2009. But after four years of his administration, to sing that song is an exercise carried out in a spirit of deepest cynicism and darkest irony.

              What’s the bet that if Seegar were younger and full of the energy he had in the 1950s, he would have spoken out against Obama’s war on dissent at home, and his campaign of terror abroad? He was in his 90s, and his activism was over by the time of this clip.

              What excuse does Springsteen, much younger and much richer, have for this display of Obama worship? (The answer lies in the fact that he’s much richer.)

              Close, but no Seegar.

              😀

              Good one, Te Reo.

      • Morrissey 5.1.2
        16 February 2014 at 11:04 am

        I trust/believe billy bragg more than you moz therefore his praise is not misplaced at all.

        Sorry to have to say this my friend, but that statement is the most lamentably illogical thing I’ve seen on this board for some considerable time.

        You “trust” Billy Bragg? Did you trust him when he was hobnobbing with a bloke he called “Tony” in the late 1990s and still supporting him as late as 2005?
        http://www.redpepper.org.uk/Rockin-the-vote-Billy-Bragg-for/

        He later withdrew his ill-advised support for that blood-stained fraud, but his naïve comments about Springsteen show that he is still liable to misjudge people.

        I think you “trust” your hero Billy Bragg in the same way his hero Springsteen “trusts” Obama—it’s blind, uncritical adulation. Springsteen joined in a cutely named “No Nukes” protest in 1979; so why is he supporting a politician who shamelessly promotes the use of nuclear power, as well as extrajudicial killing of American citizens and the persecution of political dissidents?

        • marty mars 5.1.2.1
          16 February 2014 at 11:18 am

          yeah yeah I know you hate them all with a vengeance moz – death, a slow excruciating painful and prolonged death to the fools who supported the fraudster!!! Do you know what fraud means? I’ve always liked billy bragg personally.

          • Morrissey 5.1.2.1.1
            16 February 2014 at 11:27 am

            Marty, I like Billy Bragg too. I forgive him all his misjudgements, like supporting that fraudster, because I respect him. It’s just that I felt it was necessary to remind people that Bruce Springsteen—someone else I respect and admire—is also prone to misjudgements, and is certainly no Pete Seegar. When Billy Bragg stated that Springsteen had never confronted HUAC in 1954, many people might think he would have if he had been around then.

            He would not have.

            • swordfish 5.1.2.1.1.1
              16 February 2014 at 4:20 pm

              God save us from “Liberals” who think Obama, Gore and (Gor Blimey !!!) even Hillary “Rosie-the-Riveter” Clinton are the great progressives of our time.

              Spot on, Morrissey.

  6. tricledrown 6
    16 February 2014 at 10:58 am

    Morrissey Springsteen was to young for that era.
    Born in the USA an anti vietnam war song.
    To more recently Banksters song .
    Morrissey time to start reading some lyrics.

    • Morrissey 6.1
      16 February 2014 at 11:08 am

      Morrissey Springsteen was to young for that era.

      Certainly he was too young to speak out in a 1954 HUAC meeting, as Pete Seegar did. However, he is NOT too young to speak out against the regime that holds power in his country right now.

      What has Springsteen said or done to support protestors and dissidents today?

  7. greywarbler 7
    16 February 2014 at 10:58 am

    It would be good for me to see a post that gives summary of what has been learned from this Dotcom, GCSB leaks, and so on that have dominated people’s thoughts here for, is it a week? There must be something to learn, that Labour can make use of either by drawing attention to, or avoiding or… I’m a bit confused. When will the revelations end?

    It’s like watching Limmy’s Show. Have everyone else seen it? Revelations of the thought process emerge slowly, with a Scottish accent there. I prefer Philomena Cunk actually, such a seeker after truth, on Charlie Booker’s Show. But both as informative as any Herald jonolism.

    I listened to Radionz this morning on Media Watch and am less anxious about the changes though still have a few questions in mind. Have to taste the pudding and check the flavour.

    • greywarbler 7.1
      16 February 2014 at 12:57 pm

      On Sunday mornings at Radionz Wallace Chapman will be starting about end of March.

    • Ron 7.2
      16 February 2014 at 1:19 pm

      Just listening now and while it sounds ok?! I think he is being disingenuous is stating his reason for putting Mora in with Mary Wilson. It may well be that Mora has a longish contract and they had to bury him somewhere but surely we could have done that by giving him something like Hymns for Sunday.
      No matter how you look at it Mora’s Panel Show is an event looking for excuses to publice right wing commentators. You could easily have a panel show that used people other than political hacks and it would be fine. I see Mora as watering down Checkpoint and introducing a political slant into a show that has in the past been scrupulously honest.
      I am hoping that we do not see in a short time the resignation of Mary Wilson and the promotion of Mora to being the face of Checkpoint. Now that Ferguson has been moved to Morning Report RNZ has a serious lack of good journalists.

  8. Morrissey 8
    16 February 2014 at 11:21 am

    Aussie TV dares to show the real Israeli occupation
    from JONATHAN COOK, in Nazareth, 11 February 2014
    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1392193514.html

    I never thought I would see it. A mainstream TV programme, this one made by Australian channel ABC, that shows the occupation in all its inhuman horror.

    The 45-minute investigative film concerns the Israeli army’s mistreatment of Palestinian children. Along the way, it provides absolutely devastating evidence that the children’s abuse is not some unfortunate byproduct of the occupation but the cornerstone of Israel’s system of control and its related need to destroy the fabric of Palestinian society.

    Omar Barghouti has spoken of Israelis’ view of Palestinians as only “relatively human”. Here that profound racism is on full show.

    There are, of course, concessions to “balance” – in the hope of minimising the backlash from Israel – but they do nothing to dilute the power of the message.

    This is brave film-making of the highest order.

    It is an indication of quite how exceptional this film is that it has cornered Australia’s foreign minister, Julie Bishop, into expressing her “deep concern“. That’s the same Bishop who last month doubted that the settlements in the West Bank were illegal.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uz8_qzdDdM4

    If the video above is removed, you can also watch the film here:

    http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2014/02/10/3939266.htm

    http://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2014-02-11/aussie-tv-dares-to-show-the-real-occupation/

    • Ron 8.1
      16 February 2014 at 1:31 pm

      That first line says it all ABC
      As a national Channel it really does try to present provocative intelligent overview of the news. It also manages to create some brilliant television.
      Of course Abbott is now to set about dismantling ABC and doing what National has so successfully done in New Zealand.
      If you want good television these days you will have to rely on the four great public services.
      BBC, CBC, PBS and ABC.
      I could maybe throw in DW as well.
      I hope like hell if Labour gets in power that they will set about rebuilding not only our state broadcasters but resurrecting a state film industry like we had once with Nation Film. I think the rebuild should have one of the highest priority of all the tasks that Labour would have to do. If we don’t have a good public television service to inform and educate our people we may as well forget all the rest. What good a full stomach and a cheap house if all we get in the media is right wing propaganda

      I never thought I would see it. A mainstream TV programme, this one made by Australian channel ABC,

      • Morrissey 8.1.1
        16 February 2014 at 2:08 pm

        Look closely, Ron: the BBC is also under attack. It’s never recovered from the Blair government’s furious attack on it after it had the temerity to point out that the case for attacking Iraq was completely false.

        And PBS is, despite its grand sounding name, anything but a public broadcasting station.

        If you want decent, intelligent reporting from the United Kingdom, read the BBC site, sure, but there are any number of better, more trustworthy sites.

        If you want decent, intelligent reporting from the United States, go here….
        http://www.democracynow.org/

        • Ron 8.1.1.1
          16 February 2014 at 5:08 pm

          Yes I am aware that BBC is being attacked, and also know about democracynow which also broadcasts on PBS channels just in case you are unaware, What I like about PBS is the wide variety of docos they provide some of which we pick up here. Unfortunately anything too touchy doesn’t get played here. They have some great investigations into money & medicine recently which could do with a play on NZTV

    • Murray Olsen 8.2
      16 February 2014 at 7:53 pm

      It is absolutely hopeless to attempt to minimise any backlash from Israel. They are on a full scale propaganda offensive, all over the world. I’m pretty sure they use at least some of the money they get from the US government to pay people to sit on Facebook full time, disseminating their propaganda. Their latest tactic, which almost makes me vomit, is to portray Zionist Israelis as indigenous people who have succeeded in reasserting their rights.

      Unfortunately, a lot of the conspiracy theory crap about the Rothschilds and Bilderberg makes the task of anyone putting the Palestinian case disappear under a lot of white noise. It frustrates the crap out of me.

  9. bad12 9
    16 February 2014 at 11:29 am

    Go Matt McCarten you good thing, purveyor of the State’s propaganda par excellence, Matt’s taken to discussing health matters in His latest column,

    Titillating us with the little ‘gem’ that using tobacco products kills half of those who partake, yes Matt heard it all befor, but, the problem with simply using the States Propaganda is given a deeper look into the facts an entirely different story can be told,

    Fact: 29% of annual deaths in New Zealand are ’caused’ by cancer.
    Fact: 40% of annual deaths in New Zealand are caused by heart disease.
    Fact: 20% of the New Zealand population uses tobacco products*.

    (the * is for a reason i will explain),

    SO, fact: 69% of annual deaths in New Zealand are caused by cancer and heart disease, now for the purposes of a piece of blunt mathematics subtract the 20% of smokers from the 69% of deaths,

    What this tells me is that at least 49% of us will die of cancer or heart disease who are not smokers, laughably when compared to the 50% of smokers who are supposed to die of the same disease solely upon the basis of the fact that they used tobacco products the diff is 1%,

    Of course i could theorize that as smokers make up 20% of the population and the supposed data says that smoking will kill 50% of them, then the ‘real’ figure i should be calculating off of should be half that 20%, which would simply make the figures for those who do not smoke and die of cancer and heart disease look even worse coz if i only subtract 10%,(half of the population of smokers),from the total deaths annually from both cancer and heart disease the equation becomes 50% of smokers supposedly snuff it from the addiction as opposed to 59% of those who do not smoke going the same route by the same diseases,

    And the asterisk*, Statistics NZ in a celebratory news release claim that 16% of the population are now smokers, yay what a victory for the anti tobacco zealots, or is it,

    If you run the StatisticsNZ 16% figure through the blunt mathematical calculation i use above then the numbers for those who don’t smoke and die of cancer and heart disease climb even further above the supposed 50% of those who die from using tobacco products…

    • srylands 9.1
      16 February 2014 at 12:19 pm

      “SO, fact: 69% of annual deaths in New Zealand are caused by cancer and heart disease, now for the purposes of a piece of blunt mathematics subtract the 20% of smokers from the 69% of deaths,”

      You are being ridiculous. The people who are dying of smoking related cancer now, are doing so as a result of smoking rates over the last three or four decades, when smoking rates were much higher. Yes your mathematics is “blunt” alright. It is stupid. There are many many more ex smokers than current smokers.

      Smoking imposes costs on society. It also provides benefits to its users. But it is a classic public policy problem of all the benefits being private and all the costs being socialised (the main one is health costs but there is also the vileness of simply being near smokers). The excise raised is designed to do two things – 1. Compensate society for the socialised costs and 2. Bring smoking rates down.

      • bad12 9.1.1
        16 February 2014 at 12:49 pm

        Masterbation in public is frowned upon SSLands, please refrain….

        • McFlock 9.1.1.1
          16 February 2014 at 2:24 pm

          I quite enjoyed watching an econofuck trying to do epidemiology.

          Although in the end he continued the myth that smoking has a net monetary cost to the nation (which hasn’t been true for 20 years), I laughed at the idea that vileness should be taxed. SSpylands would be taxed into bankruptcy within a week.

      • Murray Olsen 9.1.2
        16 February 2014 at 8:04 pm

        Neoliberal economics imposes costs on society. It also provides benefits to a very small number of its users. But it is a classic public policy problem of all the benefits being private and all the costs being socialised (the main one is health costs but there is also the vileness of simply being near right wingers). The excise foregone is designed to do two things – 1. Compensate the filthy rich for being disgusting and 2. Destroy any sense of community and/or society.

        There, SSLands, I fixed it for you.

    • Tim 9.2
      16 February 2014 at 10:40 pm

      Very poorly informed comment. 10 years off your life is the number to remember. Everyone used to love smoking – the problem was we found out it seemed to be killing people. A lot. Think about it – if the government’s plan was to keep raking in tax from cigarette sales then WHY ON EARTH would it celebrate smoking rates dropping?

      Heart disease is our biggest and cancer our second biggest killer regardless of whether you smoke – we all have to die of something, right, RIGHT? The point is that smoking is associated with around 10 years less life overall – if you’ve made the decision that it improves your life enough to keep poisoning yourself then FINE but don’t spout that nonsense and try to convince other people to harm themselves in that way too.

      Not only will it mean you die much SOONER but if you’re unlucky also much more painfully – think of chronic obstructive lung disease and being unable to breathe to the point where your body is chronically low on oxygen and you start to waste away and are in and out of hospital every other week and needing to leave with an oxygen tank.

      There is obviously a cost to society with hospital bills but that’s exactly what hospitals are there for. The tax on cigarettes is mainly to discourage people from buying but also to balance those losses – and it seems to work somewhat. Although I don’t agree with targeting of certain groups (like prisoners) and saying that only those people cannot smoke.

      My advice to you: talk to your family and your doctor about nicotine replacement therapy.

      • bad12 9.2.1
        16 February 2014 at 11:20 pm

        What a load of sanctimonious twaddle from one of the i want to live forever brigade, as if people who never smoke escape the indignity of the pain and suffering that goes along with death by cancer or heart disease,

        You might want to live another 10 years having to be spoon fed your food with the excrement wiped off of your leaking arse by someone hired to do such a job, you might even get lucky and be one of the very small number who have good health until they die,

        For 50+% of non-smokers though they will suffer just as much as those that smoke so climb down off of your high-horse,

        Your comment is simply moralistic bullshit, your ten years of extra life is simply fantasizing bullshit, your replacement therapy for nicotine is simply bullshit i am not interested in,

        And, do not start me on that ten years of extra life bullshit because it is simply arrived at by playing with %’s, what causes the supposed 5-10 years of extra life in the statistics is simply the lung cancer stats show a high amount of people dying of lung cancer, 20% of whom have been nowhere near tobacco products, at age 45 and under, those 1300 or so that do this very year simply distort the overall picture of longevity when applied across all cancers,

        i have no fucking intention of quitting and the more bullshit i am force fed by the anti-amoking fanatics both paid and unpaid like i assume you to be the more i am determined to enjoy my use of tobacco….

        • srylands 9.2.1.1
          16 February 2014 at 11:58 pm

          I also urge you to talk to your doctor about nicotine replacement therapy. You sound in a bad way. Even if you reject the health arguments, smoking is disgusting.

          • bad12 9.2.1.1.1
            17 February 2014 at 12:13 am

            SSLands, hang about a minute, i am just lighting another rolly, is that the best you can do SSLands, more moralistic nazism albeit shorter than that absolute twat above sprouts without a fact in sight in its whole weak diatribe,

            Why would i stop, it cost me 5 or 6 bucks a week and there is as much chance of you getting cancer or snuffing it from heart disease as there is of me doing the same,

            So all in all being a moralistic wanker gives you a 50% chance of snuffing it from the above mentioned diseases, i think i will take another puff and leave my fate in the hands of the various deity, same odds as you have got SSLands…

            • srylands 9.2.1.1.1.1
              17 February 2014 at 9:51 am

              “and there is as much chance of you getting cancer or snuffing it from heart disease as there is of me doing the same,”

              The evidence to the contrary is extremely compelling.

              • bad12 …
                17 February 2014 at 10:05 am

                SSLands, i see no production of this compelling evidence from you, masterbating in public is frowned upon, please refrain…

        • lprent 9.2.1.2
          17 February 2014 at 12:08 am

          The correlation of decades of smoking with having early heart attacks is pretty compelling. It didn’t come home to me until I woke up in hospital.

          • bad12 9.2.1.2.1
            17 February 2014 at 12:24 am

            Lprent, fair comment, but such a fright is likely to bias your thinking in any direction, stressful job at the time???,

            My point is this, and, i cannot say this with any certainty about the heart conditions that people survive as i havn’t dragged my tiny wee mind through the data, but, the rates of death scream out to me that 50% of those who do not/never smoke will die of cancer or heart disease, which makes the anti tobacco argument based around deaths of the same nature more than a little spurious,

            Such is suggestive to me that there was a 50/50 chance of you having that heart attack whether you smoked or not…

            • lprent 9.2.1.2.1.1
              17 February 2014 at 6:35 pm

              My jobs are seldom stressful since I managed to sneak out of doing the management side of it (which I am really good at but find to be an appalling waste of my time). They certainly weren’t in 2010.

        • phillip ure 9.2.1.3
          17 February 2014 at 6:57 am

          the denial runs deep in that one..

          ..smokers’-excuses – 101…

          phillip ure..

          • bad12 9.2.1.3.1
            17 February 2014 at 9:16 am

            What denial Phillis…

            • phillip ure 9.2.1.3.1.1
              17 February 2014 at 9:20 am

              didn’t you get the memo..

              ..you are on ‘ignore’..

              ..i can’t be fucked any more responding to the drivel you post..

              ..to try to defend how piss-weak you are in the area of will-power..

              phillip ure..

              • bad12 …
                17 February 2014 at 10:14 am

                What deficiency in will power is this you speak of Phillis, laughably that accusation comes form an obvious poly-addict claiming to have quit Heroin only to take up various other drugs, now that i would call piss weak,

                Yes four year olds have little toy tossing moments like claiming days ago that i am to be ignored only to be unable to resist having another look in the mirror by engaging bitterly and without an iota of fact in the following days,

                Conclusion, a filthy fucking junky too piss weak to quit the habit so becomes a whining poly-addict who’s intellect has regressed to the point of equality with the average four year old…

  10. Herodotus 10
    16 February 2014 at 11:32 am

    Wheatbix tri. with all that is currently happening, great to see our youth in a positive manner and for many in Auckland giving their time freely. Thanks to all those volunteers.

    • Rogue Trooper 10.1
      16 February 2014 at 1:10 pm

      Kiwi kids are Sanitorium (sic) kids… certainly lost in an ethnocentric silo, failing to learn languages other than their native tongues at an “alarming rate”; implications for ongoing international trade development; Wordly? Mate reckons that misunderstanding rests on the obligatory Kiwi OE…, before the return home to raise an Edmonds family…

    • Murray Olsen 10.2
      16 February 2014 at 7:59 pm

      I agree that seeing the community out running a sporting event is great, even though I have my doubts about corporate involvement. Sports clubs all over the country rely on the community and can foster a sense of organisation and action which we don’t see much in other areas. Well, except for the top Union clubs. They just get everything given to them by government, both local and national.

  11. gem 11
    16 February 2014 at 11:44 am

    I have looked through the Standard’s archives to find a post I remember from the last couple of years analysing net profit outflows offshore from NZ by sector, and cannot find it. If the author of that post, or anyone else, could point me to it I would be very grateful.

  12. bad12 12
    16 February 2014 at 11:53 am

    In a related issue that might become of interest while hunting out various links to the figures i have used in the above comment i came across something really really interesting,

    i first looked at the various web-pages detailing deaths from cancer and heart disease vis a vis the smoking issue about a year ago,

    i did the trip again today starting afresh with a Google search asking the usual multiple questions so as to drag in the widest array of answers from the web,

    In an ”It’s a modern miracle moment” i came across one page that claims the death rate from heart disease was down to 30%, go the Doctors and Nurses you good things, to have altered the upward spiral of heart disease by a full 10 or so % over the course of just 1 year would have to be truly a modern miracle,

    Makes me wonder a couple of things, (1), being it seems a bit fucking strange that the rate of deaths from heart disease can fall 10% in a year and not a peep about such a miracle in the mass media???,

    (2), of course has me wondering if our health authorities wishing to have the data reflect their zealism against the use of tobacco products would have them manipulating the figures???,

    Nah couldn’t happen here in little old Noo Ziland right, the other 100 or so pages found on the web reporting a death rate for heart disease of 40% must have got it wrong, snigger…

    • srylands 12.1
      16 February 2014 at 12:21 pm

      “(2), of course has me wondering if our health authorities wishing to have the data reflect their zealism against the use of tobacco products would have them manipulating the figures???,

      Nah couldn’t happen here in little old Noo Ziland right,”

      No exactly it could not happen in New Zealand. So why are you raising it?

  13. tricledrown 13
    16 February 2014 at 12:09 pm

    Bad 12 just about every smoker I know wants to quit but can’t because its highly addictive.
    Your statistics are very dodgy you have grabbed a whole lot of percentages no hard numbers .
    Percentages mean nothing without number.
    Now since tariana turia has pushed for huge changes to tobacco taxes and and stopping marketing aimed at”Children” .
    NZ’s smoking rates have dropped dramatically from 25% to lrss than 16%.
    Those stats can’t be fudged or ignored.

    • bad12 13.1
      16 February 2014 at 12:29 pm

      Tricledown, please provide me and the other readers these other ‘numbers’ that proves what you are trying to impart is Fact and not some knee-jerk fiction,

      The sum total of your comment is devoid of fact simply an emotive bluster, and where have i denied that the rate of those using tobacco products has not dropped,

      Your spurious comment about ‘averages’ when applied to the annual % of those who die annually from both cancer and heart diseases is simply rubbish, if i were discussing the age at which these deaths occur then making a comparison would be based upon averages…

      • phillip ure 13.1.1
        16 February 2014 at 12:56 pm

        @ b12..

        ..the denialist-writhings/obfuscations of the tobacco-addict..

        ..weak as piss..

        ..can’t even give up the ciggies..

        ..’aww!!..paw me..!!.im adwicted..!..’.

        ..it;s more addwictive than hewoin..!..

        ..pity me..!

        ..i ‘can’t help it..!

        ..awww!!!!!)

        phillip ure

        • bad12 13.1.1.1
          16 February 2014 at 2:36 pm

          Ooooh look it’s Phillis… stalking me across the web…without a fact…nor a clue…just the normal filthy junkies whine…hardly bothering to address the comment…instead using snide low level abuse as the means of discourse…all the while unable to rise above the mediocre in ‘its’ chosen medium…

          Phillis the filthy whinging junky has a certain ring to it…tell us all Phillis…your use of multiple drugs…ever heard of poly-addiction…that’s where the filthy whining junky aka you swaps one addiction for another depending on the availability of supply and whether the means of purchase is at hand…

          You havn’t kicked the smack habit Phillis…you simply swapped it for dope which is easier to access and is affordable from your current income…i have seen this befor among many other junkies i know…given a suitably large wad of cash Phillis…you would be round at the nearest dealers place stocking up large on enough smack to ping up your arm to satisfy that craving that just wont go away…and…fucks up everything you say or do…that’s why Phillis…the sum total of originality in anything you have written in ten years…is totally zero…

          Smoking tobacco Phillis…i fucken love it…can’t give up is only your latest of stupidly wrong comments…the truth is i have never bothered to try…the addiction cost me fuck-all except for rolly papers and lighters…so why would i want to give up…

          You better stay impoverished Phillis for the reasons i point out above…and…with the purity of some of the shit going round these days i could well imagine you shooting up a spoonful which would seriously blow your mind…soon after tho…it would also stop what’s left of your heart…

    • Rogue Trooper 13.2
      16 February 2014 at 1:11 pm

      lozenges working for me; 2migs, PRN

  14. tricledrown 14
    16 February 2014 at 12:09 pm

    Bad 12 just about every smoker I know wants to quit but can’t because its highly addictive.
    Your statistics are very dodgy you have grabbed a whole lot of percentages no hard numbers .
    Percentages mean nothing without number.
    Now since tariana turia has pushed for huge changes to tobacco taxes and and stopping marketing aimed at”Children” .
    NZ’s smoking rates have dropped dramatically from 25% to lrss than 16%.
    Those stats can’t be fudged or ignored.

    • bad12 14.1
      16 February 2014 at 12:42 pm

      Actually Tricledown, your wee whine,laughable as you decry my use of %’s and then trot out a couple of your own, has just reminded me that my next large time consuming search through Google will be for the import/export figures for tobacco coming into and out of New Zealand,

      Such figures might tell us all, by tonnage, just how much tobacco is currently being used in New Zealand, as apposed to that which is being imported, turned into cigarettes etc and then being re-exported…

      PS, the current 16% figure for users of tobacco is from the census figures, i am pretty sure i accidently ticked the non-smoker box on my census form when i am in fact a heavy smoker, wonder how many other accidents occurred when others filled out theirs…

  15. Rogue Trooper 15
    16 February 2014 at 1:46 pm

    One More Time (don’t miss the bus, or the train) : No-Dig Gardening – mucho gracias Murray Olsen,
    Building Depth, rather than remaining in The Shallows ; as competent as the Weather forecast
    (memory being “the fundamental characteristic of life”- Samuel Butler). Where was he from ;).

    Politicians aye?

    Don’t
    Even
    Notice
    I
    Am
    Lying

    may be a fitting epaulette. Such are the questions addressed by the field of Theodicy …”the cravings of […] man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does”…, yet, it is The Year of The Snake!

    On a related subject, we may notice the frequency the synonyms of catastrophic are being Heralded in the MSM…, conditions for beast and man becoming less favourable,

    yes, that’s Disorder for ya’s.

    -just a little from recent Back Catalogue

    Many Kind Regards,
    John. ( un- Licensed To Kill)

    • bad12 15.1
      16 February 2014 at 2:51 pm

      Rogue, welcome back, a good holiday???, No-Dig gardening, i am all ears, please enlighten us or point in the general direction of,

      Of course if you are talking Indo, i is already well versed in that…

      • Rogue Trooper 15.1.1
        16 February 2014 at 3:10 pm

        not back bad12, just a ‘birthday bash’, in tune one prays:
        Simply put
        Mow or Weed-spray
        Cardboard or woolen carpet
        Manure Fert Compost
        Grass Clippings, Leaves, Hay or similar
        Manure Fert Compost
        Grass Clippings, Leaves, Hay or similar
        and so on, reproducing forest floor texture.

        For a number of reasons I prefer making own compost, collecting neighbor’s grass, NPK, Lime as required and chicken manure. Only ‘plants of joy’ out the window though 😉

        • bad12 15.1.1.1
          16 February 2014 at 3:38 pm

          Tah much Rogue, seems a lot of work, not necessarily for someone just starting a garden, but, i have all mine as raised boxes of soil, makes the digging that much easier,

          i compost using the plastic bags that used to hold bought compost, stuff em full of weeds and clippings off of the plants, bush’s, and trees, wait awhile and hey presto ready to go into the soil,

          Lolz, one of my neighbours throws all His weeding into a wheelie bin that He pays to have emptied once a week for 4 or 5 bucks, then moans about the soil being so poor in His garden , Lolz, He’s a redneck hypocrite so i have never bothered any attempt at enlightenment,

          One of the other neighbor’s in the street has just started dropping off all His food scraps which go straight in the garden along with a suitable pile of my compost…

          • Rogue Trooper 15.1.1.1.1
            16 February 2014 at 3:54 pm

            on to it bad12; I’m building up to improve soil, overcome oxalis, convolvulus, drainage issues, ease on back; no hurry, just a little at a time as materials are afforded. All the best, gonna be an interesting, yet sad year out there in the big wide world all media present to us spectator / visionaries.
            Over, and, out!

            • bad12 15.1.1.1.1.1
              16 February 2014 at 4:12 pm

              Here’s a hint Rogue, don’t look at a garden as a whole area that has to be dug over at once, form a daily habit,

              What i do is dig across one fork width of garden most days, the top foot of soil i dig out laying it on top of the rest of the garden, the bottom foot i just dig in place to make sure its nice and loose, then i throw in the compost and rake the dug out soil back into place,

              i do tho have the luxury of only planting the one crop a year, but, the system still works well if you have multiple boxes and can leave a couple un-planted…

  16. weka 16
    16 February 2014 at 2:12 pm

    Greens announce their Solar Homes policy

    Solar power is one of the greenest forms of electricity generation we have. It gives families independence from the big electricty companies. With no fuel cost, it insulates families against future power price rises.

    Under the Greens’ Solar Homes initiative, Kiwi families and households will be able to get low-cost loans from the government to pay for solar power installation, repay the loan via their rates, and enjoy free, sustainable power for decades.

    The loans will be cost neutral to the Crown, with an estimated administration cost to Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority (EECA) of less than a million dollars a year.

    Once the low-interest loan is repaid, the family will own their solar power system outright. Families will be able to earn money by selling excess electricity back to the grid.

    This is an example of smarter, greener economics in action.

    Full policy and announcements at https://www.greens.org.nz/solarhomes

    • McFlock 16.1
      16 February 2014 at 2:30 pm

      intriguing

      • weka 16.1.1
        16 February 2014 at 2:59 pm

        Looks like a smart, well thought out policy. I can pick some holes in it (esp around solar batteries), but for the mainstream it’s a good start, and a good example of holistic thinking getting into mainstream politics (the policy works at multiple, interrelated levels across many areas).

        • ianmac 16.1.1.1
          16 February 2014 at 3:10 pm

          Yes. A positive step but the battery storage problem has not been solved yet has it? I think that the cost of solar panels has been tumbling downwards as new technology comes into force. Sunny Marlborough might be a good place to be.

    • bad12 16.2
      16 February 2014 at 3:08 pm

      my view is that this is a big step in the right direction, But, i think that far far more ‘thinking’ need be done around solar energy,

      (1), A standard solar power kit need be designed so that all installations are basically a carbon copy of each other, where it is made easy to simply plug in more solar panels should space allow and the initial installation proved a financial success

      (2),i am of the belief that such solar installations should be without the capacity to store energy, i see the use of batteries as a means of storage when we have a National Grid as a total waste of resources,

      The power from solar installations should just be fed straight though a smart meter into the grid with the proposed ‘kiwi-power’ scheme of the Government as the single buyer of wholesale electricity buying all the generated electricity from households generating solar energy at wholesale rates on a preferential basis ahead of the commercial generators, thus a smart meter would measure house-hold use against household solar generation and a discount at the wholesale rate would occur at the point of billing the household…

      • ianmac 16.2.1
        16 February 2014 at 3:13 pm

        Good idea bad12. Straight into the grid and avoid the need for batteries. However the Electricity Providers might be unhappy as thousands and thousands of solar panels would undermine their strangle hold.

        • bad12 16.2.1.1
          16 February 2014 at 4:04 pm

          Seriously ianmac???, as far s the major generators go i would simply say ‘tough’, it’s our dams and grid that my parents and grandparents built off of the back of being taxed and some very hard labour,

          If the retailers start to go broke again i say tough, the insertion of these retailers into the ‘market’ which has been the cause of the rising price of electricity in many instances,and, as many of these retailers are in fact owned by the major generators who ‘kaching’ demand two lots of profit from the same generation, there would be no sad loss, how long would it take for the state to set up an electricity retailer…

    • BM 16.3
      16 February 2014 at 6:01 pm

      Not a bad idea, but like others have said the batteries are the main problem.
      I read some where the batteries need replacing every 10 -15 years and they aren’t cheap and also where do you stick them.

      Also the panels do not last for ever, 20 -25 years seem to be the life expectancy.

      Having said that I do like Bad12 idea of selling electricity into the grid.

      • weka 16.3.1
        16 February 2014 at 6:17 pm

        So you like the Green Party’s policy of selling power to the grid, good for you.

        “also where do you stick them.”

        Think about all that space used to installing heat pumps. Most houses have room to spare. You can put them outside (although there are frost issues). Installers will help solve these problems just like they do with other technologies.

        The price of panels and batteries will drop once more people are buying them. That’s part of the GP plan, to boost the solar industry in NZ.

        • BM 16.3.1.1
          16 February 2014 at 6:29 pm

          I’m a capitalist, being able to make a bit of money selling power appeals greatly.
          Photovoltaic panels I’m fairly meh about, their efficiency is rather poor and return to cost ratio isn’t great.

          The only really question I have is how the electrical grid would cope with 30,000+ people randomly injecting various amounts of power into the grid.
          Would that be an issue?

          • mickysavage 16.3.1.1.1
            16 February 2014 at 6:33 pm

            Distributed input is much easier to handle than the current model where power from large South Island generators has to be transported the length of the country to Auckland.

      • bad12 16.3.2
        16 February 2014 at 7:01 pm

        BM, i will have you eating mung beans and lentils yet, the final straw will be when you go into the office that you sell yourself to as an indentured serf muttering peace, love, happiness, and joyful times for all while counting your hippy beads,

        The Green Party can expect your vote this year then???, the switch wont be a lonely one, a 58% rise in the Green party vote from within the Auckland electorates held by National was apparent in the data from the 2011 election…

        • BM 16.3.2.1
          16 February 2014 at 7:14 pm

          Unfortunately I’m not quite ready to go out there and purchase a Morris dancing outfit, as tempting as it is.

          Seriously though this is where the greens really trip up, good idea but it’s only one idea and very few people(hopefully) cast their vote purely on one issue or idea.

          This is why I think the Greens need to be a more neutral party, take a leaf out of Switzerland’s book and learn to work with every one.

          They’d have so much more success.

          • McFlock 16.3.2.1.1
            16 February 2014 at 7:16 pm

            lols

            Another desperate stab at a coalition partner for the party with no friends…

            • BM 16.3.2.1.1.1
              16 February 2014 at 7:27 pm

              Seriously?

              The greens have been around a long time, yet they’re still considered extremist nut bars by a large proportion of kiwis.

              Until they actually work with National they always will be the 10% mung bean , hippy party.
              Greens need to get sharper, they’re a business and sometimes you have work with other businesses you don’t particularly like, but you do it because you get something good out of it.
              The fact that they’re still political virgins with no track record after all these years speaks volumes about how poor the greens political strategy is.

              Greens are their own worst enemy.

              • weka …
                16 February 2014 at 7:34 pm

                “Seriously though this is where the greens really trip up, good idea but it’s only one idea and very few people(hopefully) cast their vote purely on one issue or idea.”

                Dude, read Norman’s speech. The standard even published the whole thing so you don’t have to go looking. One idea, my arse. At least base your criticisms on something even half way real.

              • McFlock …
                16 February 2014 at 7:37 pm

                On the contrary, if the greens ever go into coalition with national, it would be proof that they elevate mung beans above child welfare, employment and human suffering.

                That’s different to working with individual nats on individual legislation, but they already try that.

              • Colonial Viper …
                16 February 2014 at 10:39 pm

                Greens need to get sharper, they’re a business and sometimes you have work with other businesses you don’t particularly like

                Hey shit head

                This is about politics, not corporations. It’s about people, not corporations. It’s about communities, not corporations.

                I know in your style of National led neolib politics it’s all about big corporations and all about big money. But your style of politics can fuck off.

              • felix …
                16 February 2014 at 11:22 pm

                “The greens have been around a long time, yet they’re still considered extremist nut bars by a large proportion of kiwis.

                Until they actually work with National they always will be the 10% mung bean , hippy party.”

                Guess ACT need to learn to work with Labour then. Unless they want to carry on as the fringe extremist nut bar sub-1% party that is.

                • srylands …
                  16 February 2014 at 11:55 pm

                  “Guess ACT need to learn to work with Labour then. Unless they want to carry on as the fringe extremist nut bar sub-1% party that is.”

                  Now that ACT has ejected Banks and they have an intelligent, thoughtful leader, their vote will progressively recover. They will have 2 MPs in the next Parliament.

          • bad12 16.3.2.1.2
            16 February 2014 at 11:36 pm

            BM, ummm, the most educated eloquent answer my tiny little mind can formulate in answer to that is, sorry, fuck off with your lolly pops save them for National after the election, another 9 in opposition means they will need cheering up…

            • srylands 16.3.2.1.2.1
              16 February 2014 at 11:52 pm

              “another 9 in opposition means they will need cheering up…”

              Thankfully, that is looking increasingly unlikely.

              And the foul mouthed language .. if you and CV are indicative (“shit head”) it is a worrying indicator of Your mindset and of Him. i wonder for Your future and His if You keep behaving in this way.

              • bad12 …
                17 February 2014 at 12:00 am

                SSLands, you sound like you need cheering up, why not slither off to that wee gambling site and console yourself with a good long drool over the ”next PM gamble”,

                What scares you off from sitting and spitting your rubbish into the forum over there SSLands is the fact that those with a couple of working neurons and actual money, as opposed to you pretending to have some, is the fact that they would see through your rubbish in 2 seconds right,

                Or have they already given you the message to stop masterbating in their forum…

  17. Colonial Viper 17
    16 February 2014 at 4:42 pm

    Soccer World Cup blood: 400 Nepalese immigrant workers dead so for for Qatar event

    This is beyond a disgrace; why the multi-millionaires who run global soccer allow this to continue is a question every NZ fan must ask.

    http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/feb/16/qatar-world-cup-400-deaths-nepalese

  18. swordfish 18
    16 February 2014 at 5:09 pm

    Further to the latest Fairfax poll.

    A quick comparative analysis of 2008 and 2011 Opinion Polls suggests that a little more than 50% of the time, Fairfax results are skewered about 3-6 percentage points to the Right in comparison with other polls taken around the same time (the rest of the time their results closely align with the other polls. Fairfax never favours the Left in comparison to other polls).

    The last Fairfax poll of 08 overestimated National support by 4 points (and underestimated Labour by 3) in comparison with the Election results while the last Fairfax poll of 11 overestimated National support by 7 points (and underestimated Labour by 2).

  19. joe90 19
    16 February 2014 at 5:45 pm

    Winning hearts and minds.

    The February 2013 document shows that the Indonesian government had retained the law firm for help in trade talks, the Times reported in a story posted on its website Saturday. The law firm was not identified in the document, but the Chicago-based firm Mayer Brown was advising the Indonesian government on trade issues at the time, according to the newspaper.

    The document itself is a monthly bulletin from an NSA liaison office in Canberra, the capital of Australia. The NSA’s Australian counterpart, the Australian Signals Directorate, had notified the NSA that it was conducting surveillance of the talks, including communications between Indonesian officials and the American law firm, and offered to share the information, the Times reported.

    Liaison officials asked the NSA general counsel’s office, on behalf of the Australians, for guidance about the spying. The bulletin notes only that the counsel’s office “provided clear guidance” and that the Australian eavesdropping agency “has been able to continue to cover the talks, providing highly useful intelligence for interested U.S. customers,” according to the Times story.

    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/report-document-shows-surveillance-us-law-firm

  20. Huginn 20
    16 February 2014 at 6:42 pm

    Let’s do the time warp

    The Wall Street Journal’s advice to young women
    Susan Patton: A Little Valentine’s Day Straight Talk http://on.wsj.com/1dLV3OS

  22. Jim 22
    16 February 2014 at 9:32 pm

    NSA’s mass surveillance of NZers online – by Vikram Kumar
    http://internetganesha.wordpress.com/2014/02/14/nsas-mass-surveillance-of-nzers-online/

    “Part of my TEDx Queenstown talk next week is about mass surveillance online. How governments are building the modern Panopticon.

    I was therefore quite surprised yesterday when Prime Minister John Key said he has no reason to believe the NSA has undertaken mass surveillance on New Zealanders. To help the Prime Minister, let’s look at what we know about it and whether an objective person should come to the same conclusion…”

  23. Yossarian 23
    16 February 2014 at 10:07 pm

    @Karol. Just a small point and this probably does not irk others. Please when you start an article of yours do not dive straight into the acronym of MSM. I understand what it means, yet others may not or have an educated guess. Perhaps in future to start your MSM article, then give it a one line, name check as to what it means “Mainstream Media” then revert to acronymsville? Otherwise it can lead to confusion. Is MSM like BDSM yet a lite version of it? Am I meant to eat M&M’s whilst indulging in NeoLiberal BDSM whilst glancing at Shortland Street on The MSM? I like reading the posts on The Standard aka TS. I dont want to have to invest in an Enigma machine to unravel the gobbledegook under the assumption that because the author knows what something stands for, therefore all the readers do. I just want to read the articles. Rest In Peace. Rip Msm/BdsmLite/NeoM&M’s/Fubar!

    • Murray Olsen 23.1
      17 February 2014 at 12:22 am

      BDSM is usually practised by more than one consenting adult at a time, unless it’s a Tory with an asphyxiation fetish. MSM is forced on us. The two should not be compared.

    • karol 23.2
      17 February 2014 at 9:08 am

      Fair enough, Yossarian. Noted.

  24. ecossemaid 24
    16 February 2014 at 10:09 pm

    snafu

  25. Yossarian 25
    16 February 2014 at 10:16 pm

    PO ecosse

  26. ecossemaid 26
    16 February 2014 at 10:20 pm

    lol

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