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Open mike 16/07/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 16th, 2015 - 230 comments
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openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

230 comments on “Open mike 16/07/2015 ”

  1. This govt is dragging us down – they and their supporters are part of the problem and the problem is so big it cannot be ignored.

    “Government spends up to 20 times more money on wooing oil and gas companies to New Zealand than it does on promoting renewable energy, newly released figures show.

    The disproportionate funding was justified, Government officials said, because of the large royalties paid by petroleum companies. The Green Party said it further confirmed the Government’s misplaced priorities.”


    All Greens are good greens.

    • RedLogix 1.1

      I met Gareth a number of times – very impressive young dude with a real future.

      But I take your weaseling Nats and give you:

      A directive banning the Clean Energy Finance Corporation (CEFC) from investing in existing wind technology will also apply to small-scale solar projects, a move that will effectively throttle the industry, the Australian Solar Council said.

      The federal government on Sunday confirmed that the $10bn CEFC will no longer invest in wind power, instead focussing on “emerging technologies”.

      “It is our policy to abolish the Clean Energy Finance Corporation because we think that if the projects stack up economically, there’s no reason why they can’t be supported in the usual way,” Abbott told reporters in Darwin. “But while the CEFC exists, what we believe it should be doing is investing in new and emerging technologies – certainly not existing windfarms.


  2. stever 2

    “a greater presence of billionaires in a country actually slows down its economic growth”


    Interesting stuff!

  3. phil twyford – “I’m not going to say anything about this individual… but they came to me” – sorry to raise this again but phil twyford is not the sort of mate you want to have when it gets tough. Shifty eyes, just said he approves stealing – go labour lol

    • Charles 3.1

      Has he realised “the risk” finally?

      ““The whistleblower who I worked with wanted to shine a light on what is a very real issue for New Zealand – foreign investment pushing up house prices and shutting people who live here out of the property market.

      They approached him and “he worked with them”, but remember, they approached him – it makes all the difference. Presumeably he looked the other way while they tucked the “data” in his top pocket, so as not to be involved with the words coming out of his own mouth later, or his inability to say, “No thanks, this light you’re shining in my eyes is racist and probably illegal.”.

      ha ha ha

      We’ve had some really good arguments:

      “We’re all racists, therefore racism is the new norm and since normal means it’s ok, that means racism doesn’t exist anymore. In fact, not being racist would be racist.”

      “I’m a shit, you’re a shit, therefore you may not look at the shit, point it out, or choose to change our shit or your own shit.”

      “I don’t know what racism is, but if I did, it wouldn’t be this.”

      “If I can’t blame Chinese people for everything I’ve done, how will I assert my identity?”

      “You spelled it wrong, therefore everything else you say is wrong.”

      “Just because we did something really wrong, doesn’t mean it wasn’t right if we ignore the wrongness.”

      “If someone I admire does something wrong, that means I did something wrong, which makes me a bad person, and I’m not a bad person ever, therefore what the person did can’t be wrong.”

      and my favourite,

      “Yes but lots of people have money and lots of people are Chinese, therefore lots of Chinese people with money are dangerous. We need to stop them spending money by telling them they’re Chinese!”

      and now,

      “Your honor, that man gave me the stolen gun in a way that stolen things are supplied, how was I to know it was stolen or what would happen when I aimed it and pulled the trigger? Not my fault.”

      But I wouldn’t want to bring it up. None of my business. Nothing wrong with English, Welsh and Scottish names all throughout the Labour Party. My name is English. Some of my best friends are Welsh and they aren’t smelly or dirty like the rest. They all have shifty eyes, but so what. It’d be hypocritical. I’m not looking for it. The membership list is neutral data. Could be anyone. What are we discussing, anyway? I don’t even…

      • “They approached him and “he worked with them”, but remember, they approached him – it makes all the difference.”

        That’s not what is says in the piece you’ve quoted. Where did you get that from?

        • Charles

          NZ Herald. Since I posted that they’ve cut and edited the original story that made efforts to draw a line between being “approached” and “taking information”. Amazing, but true.

          • te reo putake

            So your claim is based on an error in the Herald which has been corrected? Good to know!

            • Charles

              I know, I had to laugh, myself. At least I spelled Herald right.

              • Tracey


                Nonetheless if you know the data has been stolen… and it reveals NO wrong doing… (that is a key differentiation) … you say NO.

    • b waghorn 3.2

      So snowden , assange and rawshark where wrong to do what they did?.

      • Puckish Rogue 3.2.1

        Nothiong illegal was going on at the real estate agent

        • lprent

          Yes, I think everyone knows that. I think that the question is if we should measure, and probably add restrictions on overseas purchases of residential property – or simply to tax them.

          • Gosman

            It is a very good question. Perhaps Labour should have waited till the first part of the question was answered or at least pushed for it to be answered in the affirmative.

            • Draco T Bastard

              The leak proved that we need to measure. National has been saying that we don’t and thus refusing to act on the issue at all. This means that the leak was in the public interest which should make the leaker’s firing illegal.

        • Charles

          Then I guess the guy’s just been illegally fired for nothing.

          • JanM

            There is every possibility that that is correct and it wouldn’t be the first time this company has fired someone illegally – they are, as the saying goes, no better than they ought to be. My friend successfully sued them for thousands for that reason.

      • Tracey 3.2.2

        sorry, what wrong doing was B&T involved with?

    • Skinny 3.3

      Oh Marty your cruel on poor old Phil Twyford who is one of the hard working good guys in the Labour crew. He would be under instructions and playing the cards he has been dealt the best he can. I actually feel sorry for the poor bugger not playing his natural hand. So much so I put a call in to Jacko’s radio live show yesterday and gave him a Patsy question about cheap Chinese Central Government money to invest here.
      It gave him a back straightener and he stuck to the task, I’m sure McCarten who was with him liked it 🙂

      I certainly wouldn’t be embarrassed sitting down with Phil and tucking into a good feed of yum cha some time in the future while in Auckland.

      • Colonial Viper 3.3.1

        Do you really want to be sitting next to Phil, I’m just saying watch out if some of the dumplings taste off…

        • Skinny

          Haha that is why I said ‘yum cha’ which you can pick and choose as the waitress goes from table to table with the offerings. Yes there would be a few eateries around the country where Twyford can expect a sudden bout of explosive diarrhea afterwards lol.

  4. Saarbo 4

    Well exporters with the exception of Dairy should be doing well soon, I expect that we may see a sub 60 cent Kiwi/USD exchange rate again because Whole Milk Powder just dropped to $1848 per tonne this morning….


    This is crisis material now for regional NZ Im thinking.

  5. Sabine 5

    Too all those that want to make Phil Twyford a racist, with shfty eyes and long teeth..

    did you also scream racism when he raised the Issue of Australian Companies buying up our State Houses?

    Or is that ok, because it is only State Houses and only Corporations? Or is it only racism when the houses sold to overseas speculators are private property and profit is to be made?

    I really would like this to know? Because I am befuddled with it.

    especially considering that after almost a week of screams of hell and damnation, some still don’t want to discuss the underlying issue of our country being sold to the highest bidder to the detriment of many and the leisure of a few.

    • one hand giveth the other taketh away – that’s labour through and through imo

      • Sabine 5.1.1

        how about the greens giving to National in order to attract the aquamarine vote?

        how about the greens giving us Peter Effn Dunne?

        how about the greens giving us Nikki Kaye?

        purity, frankly no one has it.

        and by all means, I am voting for people not saints.

        as for the person that leaked the data, s/he should be a national hero. Because our young ones don’t find houses, or rentals for that matter. Our old ones live in decrepit cold houses. Our families are living in caravans, tents, cars, under bridges, in decrepit old leaking rubbish houses, that no one can do anything about, cause no one wants to do anything about.

        so go be pure and green n stuff, and make sure to look away when you see a mother put her kids to bed in a caravan. Cause purity.

        But stop moaning that Labour is not doing enough. Go run for office. Be pure. Be 100% green….oh wait….thats not true either.

        • marty mars

          right, so you’re blaming the greens…

          • Weepus beard

            You do appear to be driving a Green hit job, so why not?

          • Sabine

            No I am not, I am just pointing out that the Greens are no more pure and clean then any of the other parties.
            In fact, if politians want to get something done they have to work across the aisles and compromise, barter and trade.

            You however, expect the labour party to be pure and without fault in an almost biblical sense. So I leave you with the words of the Man Jesus, Those without sin shall cast the very first stone.

            • marty mars

              yeah well I’m not a christian or a believer of one of the big 3 religions from the middle east so the analogy doesn’t work – don’t believe in sin either so there you go.

              But your point about clean and pure is good – how dirty is too dirty for you, is there a line that would make it difficult or impossible for you to accept the consequences even if they appeared beneficial?

              For me racism is one of those lines.

          • Skinny

            I am starting to get the impression your one of these idiots that’s single mission in life is to kick the crap out of Labour. By all means not a problem giving them a crack every now and then, but every day Marty how does this help the collective cause?

    • Tracey 5.2

      ca you explain how the sale to an australian company was racism. It could be many things but racist?

      Can you explain the constant increase of central auckland prices since 1990, befre Chinese were buying up?

      Why weren’t the UK and SA buyers data released?

    • ankerawshark 5.3

      100+ Sabine

  6. Charles 6

    “…especially considering that after almost a week of screams of hell and damnation, some still don’t want to discuss the underlying issue of our country being sold to the highest bidder to the detriment of many and the leisure of a few…”

    If anyone was concerned with that, National wouldn’t be in power, neither would Labour.

    “Australians” aren’t a race. They’re Colonials, like the people who form the basis of our establishment. They have no power over us. You have Google right? Why after all this time have you not Googled: What is Racism? Because WHAT THE FUCK. Discovering racist elements in oneself isn’t a problem. Just makes a person human. It’s like finding shit on your shoe. You can realise it and wipe it off, or, you can smear it over everyone and everything you meet and deny it exists.

    • Sabine 6.1

      Australians. like Chinese are the people living in one Country named Australia or Chinese.

      There is actually no such thing as “Chinrese” maybe the Han come closest to it, but then you have a multitude of other “races” within China.
      “Chinese Ethnic Groups: Han People and 55 Ethnic Minorities. As a large united multi-national state, China is composed of 56 ethnic groups. Among them Han Chinese account for 91.59% of the overall Chinese population and the other 55 make up the remaining 8.41% according to the Fifth National Population Census of 2000.’

      German is not a race either, in fact 200 years ago Germany did not exist. But you would not call the Germans a Friese, a Saxon, a bavarian, or a westphale.

      And New Zealander by your admission is also not a race, but only colonialists.

      Feel better now in your purity.

      as for Phil Twyford having been approached with information. If you would look at his FB Page for instance, you would see that he continuously has asked for people with Housing issues, Housing Worries to come forward and to contact him.
      He is doing what he is supposed to do as an elected MP, as the Housing Spokesperson of Labour. He is looking out for the best interest of the people that have put him into Parliament. Cause clearly if the people did not like him, or believe he would do a good job, they could have voted for Alfred Ngaro, List MP National.

      • marty mars 6.1.1

        no such thing as the race of kiwis or australians – that’s why ethnicity is a better way to express it all

        I will say that I do admire twyford sticking to his guns and not backing off an inch in his portrayal even when presented with vitriol (from some) and dismay – a potential labour leader it seems

      • Charles 6.1.2

        Oh geez, not the blood quantum argument. So Twyford says Chinese, and it’s safe, because that isn’t specific so not racist. Then later, Labour say they don’t mean Chinese here for longer than Granparents, but those still in China – arbitrarily severing family, cultural, religious and race lines to suit themselves = racist action. I imagine there are a huge amount of single parent half-European Chinese citizens in China, who’ve lived there for a few hundred years, without losing any of their Euro blood and resistent to the local culture, and it’s those who are “swarming in” to steal your café from you. Pointing it out isn’t racist though, because they’re only Chinese.

        Like I said, Google racism, and read more than just the dictionary definition.

        What is up with this “purity” and “virgin” stuff you’ve been saying all week?

        • weka

          Not to mention the fact that in NZ we talk about the Chinese as a race because we are largely ignorant about Chinese ethnicities and cultures.

          But maybe we should ask Chinese people if they think that in NZ they experience racism directed at them because they are Chinese (or Asian).

          Entirely agree about the dictionary thing. Semantics about race aren’t that helpful because they make abstract real world effects such as the one about family.

      • Tracey 6.1.3

        so say what you mean, there are other words for it, than racism (which is simply inaccurate).

        ends justice the means aye Sabine, national Lite (labour) is better than national, right?

    • Enough 6.2

      Interesting advice and terminology, Charles. Try googling Colonialism – “the establishment, exploitation, maintenance, acquisition, and expansion of colony in one territory by a political power from another territory. It is a set of unequal relationships between the colonial power and the colony and often between the colonists and the indigenous population”. The issue is foreign capital colonialism affecting Auckland residential housing. Not it’s racial source.

      • Charles 6.2.1

        Interesting the way you illogically turn 180 degrees in your reasoning to cover up racism. See above argument: “If we ignore the wrong… we’re right… because of “the threat” “. The issue isn’t foreign capital. Never was.

        • Enough

          The issue I’m referencing is pretty simple. Is foreign capital inflating prices in the Auckland housing market? Yes or no? – not whether Twyford’s comments were inappropriate. Don’t require your gratuitous lessons in logic and reasoning, by the way.

          • Charles

            Returning the favour. Why so touchy? And no the issue is not foreign capital inflating house prices. That never was my argument. That argument is the reason those idiots in Labour stepped into a world of racist pain. The reason people must support Labour over this, the reason they must stop at “foreign capital” is because if they go two more steps down the trail, they find everything they believe in, everything they attach their self worth to, is gone – it was all a lie.

            “Foreign capital” is a symptom of a system that they thought was working for them. They can no longer protect our version of capitalism, they have to accept that working hard doesn’t win the day, that education can’t trump capital, that privilege exists, that politics is impotent in the face of capital, that laws are subjectively applied, that they are no longer favoured by law-makers as of right, and their social status evaporates. Must feel like hell. They have to accept Twyford et. al. made a racist statement, and then the history of their families in NZ is called into question. It’s the perfect storm. They have to turn Left, politically, if they want the solution, and not just a little bit Left, and they don’t want that. Cognitive dissonance writ large. Usually we just have to stop a corrupt Investment Company manager going to Golf to unleash that sort of pain on a man. But this stuff undermines everything.

            Labour “knew the risk”? Like hell they did. If they did, then the only thing worse that they would be trying to comfort themselves over would be a complete economic collapse very soon.

            • Enough

              Interesting soliloquy. Oh to occupy the moral high ground with such equanimity.

              • Charles

                High moral ground? haha no no you don’t know me well at all. See above logical fallacies.

                Correction: “Economic collapse” isn’t the phrase I’m looking for. Sounds a bit apocolyptic. What Labour are hiding is that a big chunk of the middle class’ economic power is about to evaporate. That’s closer. i.e. they are about to unavoidably fall down the social class ladder. That’s why they turned it into a race issue. Hate the thing that out-gunned you at your own shoot-out – standard text book political strategy. Polarise voters, entrench existing support. Unless Labour now go Left, they just entered a poltical death-cycle.

            • Colonial Viper

              “Foreign capital” is a symptom of a system that they thought was working for them. They can no longer protect our version of capitalism, they have to accept that working hard doesn’t win the day, that education can’t trump capital, that privilege exists, that politics is impotent in the face of capital, that laws are subjectively applied, that they are no longer favoured by law-makers as of right, and their social status evaporates. Must feel like hell. They have to accept Twyford et. al. made a racist statement, and then the history of their families in NZ is called into question. It’s the perfect storm. They have to turn Left, politically, if they want the solution, and not just a little bit Left, and they don’t want that.


              EXCEPT Labour has no solutions for making Auckland housing affordable for an average worker on $50K pa. None at all.

              The people who continue to defend Labour’s targetting of Chinese as ‘standing up for ordinary Kiwis’ must be talking about “ordinary Kiwis” who earn in the $100K plus bracket.

              • Charles

                “…EXCEPT Labour has no solutions for making Auckland housing affordable for an average worker on $50K pa. None at all…”

                That’s the “scarey” thing – scarey to some. If Labour could do anything to fix the situation, they wouldn’t have taken the race line. From their well-placed viewpoint (on the inside), they have just revealed that if we maintain present systems, “there is nothing anyone can do to save the middle classes”. The aspirational dream is over: the property ladder, your kids buying houses and turning out just like you etc etc. Potentially nasty stuff, socially, when that suddenly collapses. I would sort of sympathise, but not very strongly. No amount of praising the revelation of “the threat” will change that. People think Labour can do something, they just said they can’t or maybe – as you say – won’t.

                Here’s the next curious thing:
                If this theory is true (everything’s a theory, I guess) National know it too, and the race-to-win will not be over who can move to Centre Right this/next election, but who can go Left without losing the Right-in-denial and how to shore-up the last scraps before an inequality gap that can’t be (easily) closed occurs. It’s going to be hilarious… in a perverse sort of way. A frantic re-arranging of deckchairs.

                • RedLogix

                  I suggest events could well prove you wrong Charles. Twyford may well have more up his sleeve yet.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Yep. This ball is definitely still in play. For better or for worse.

                    But I am picking that Labour will not commit to any new policy at all around making Auckland housing affordable for the average kiwi.

                    Their call to “collect more data” is a way of calling for action without committing themselves to taking any future action themselves.

                  • Charles

                    In a way, I hope I am wrong. Because uncontrolled social class collapse would make quite a mess. Not good for anyone.

                    • Yes indeed and the targets to blame when the shit hits the fan as the bubble bursts have been set in place and oh what convenient targets they are.

                  • weka

                    “Twyford may well have more up his sleeve yet.”

                    He may, but his and Labour’s problem is that so many people no longer trust them. We’ve been waiting a long time on too many issues.

                • Colonial Viper

                  If this theory is true (everything’s a theory, I guess) National know it too, and the race-to-win will not be over who can move to Centre Right this/next election, but who can go Left without losing the Right-in-denial and how to shore-up the last scraps before an inequality gap that can’t be (easily) closed occurs. It’s going to be hilarious… in a perverse sort of way. A frantic re-arranging of deckchairs.

                  Interesting, but I suggest that you may have picked the wrong starting point as Labour didn’t design this play in order to “go left.”

                  Internally, Labour is fairly (although not absolutely) convinced that being “too left” was a major part of its downfall over the last two elections.

                  Labour’s making a red meat play, and it is making a play for the comfortable middle class tired of being outbid by Chinese people for that $800K Onehunga villa.

    • greywarshark 6.3

      Are Australians human then?

      • Charles 6.3.1

        Depends if there’s bugs on the barbie. And if it’s VB then yep, for sure, totally human. XXXX… I’m not sure who likes that. That’s some extraterrestrial stuff.

        • alwyn

          The really stupid Australians are the ones who love XXXX.
          You have, I am sure, have heard the old joke that they named it XXXX because Queenslanders were too ignorant to be able to spell BEER?

      • marty mars 6.3.2

        are friends electric?

    • JanM 6.4

      So it’s ok to say Australia, because that’s not racist because they’re the same as us, but it’s not ok to say China because they’re not.
      There are two solutions to this problem as I see it:
      1 Change the name of the country that my daughter-in-law’s ancestors come from
      2 Look the other way because if something that harms us is being done by someone who isn’t the same as us we can’t say or do anything about it because that would, by definition, be racist.
      What do you think, Charles?

      • Charles 6.4.1

        “So it’s ok to say Australia, because that’s not racist because they’re the same as us, but it’s not ok to say China because they’re not.”

        I guess you could call a rejection of foreign people (incl, Aussies, or their companies) as Xenophobic. That could be a subset of racism, but not necessarily racist. Import tariffs, for instance, are more a protectionist economic/legal issue than a private attack on a specific person’s ethnicity, race or origin, so not necessarily xenophobic. Very difficult, if not impossible, to prove private motivations with ideology.

        The rest turns on two types of misunderstanding:

        “Look the other way because if something that harms us is being done by someone who isn’t the same as us we can’t say or do anything about it because that would, by definition, be racist.”

        No no no. If in, say, the normal course of your day a person not of your race hits you with a bat, for godsake, protect yourself. If they yell abuse at you, do what you think is best in reply. You will be two people duking it out. If you feel uncomfortable or put out by not knowing the language, that is just the sort of problems anyone deals with. They aren’t making a racist attack on you. They’re just either trying to communicate within certain limitations, like all humans do, or they’re being a dick.

        Also, it is not ethical or logical to say, “If we do not discriminate (race, sex, gender etc etc), another group will gain power and overwhelm us, therefore we must discriminate against that group now to minimise the threat.”

        It removes the effect of the passage of time (incites fear over reason and reality) and eliminates any attempts to reach agreements: such as found in ToW disputes. Good faith is the ethical choice i.e. neither party tries to stop the other party geting what they need, and both parties are committed to mutually beneficial outcomes. That’s the theory, unrealistic as it may be in our current environment. However, which is better:

        1) Accept the current environment (bad as it is) because it supports personal gain (my personal interests), and discard what is right for the collective.

        2) Accept the current environment (bad as it is) for what it is, but decide to make a change for the collective good.

        It doesn’t bother me that people want to choose #1. Just that they won’t admit it becomes grating. And I guess that they won’t admit it means they do want to choose option #2 on some level, but don’t know how to get to step one; and those solutions will be as varied as the situations. Sorry, can’t offer generalised counselling services all day.

        But that isn’t what’s happening with Labour. Labour are an established power base. They aren’t a private citizen. They sit down and plan strategy, policy. They have ability to act against, or for, or influence, acts against or for anyone they choose. They had no need (or right) to isolate race as an indentifier of cause or harm, especially when the people targetted were not at fault. The reasoning they used validated racism (and stupidity) – suspected reason for that is above. Check the power imbalance/structure.

        Sorry I don’t know what your #1 point relates to.

        • JanM

          Point 1 relates to China – it seems to me that people, particularly people of a certain age who can remember the ghastly racism of decades ago, get the heebies every time someone talks about China and it’s citizens, known to the world as Chinese (just as New Zealanders are known to the world as New Zealanders). It seems to me that in order to have a sensible discussion on that country without hysteria, it might be an advantage to change its name so the Pavlovian reaction in some of us is not automatically triggered by its current one.
          And Charles, we are discussing, or are trying to if we didn’t keep getting derailed, “protectionist economic/legal issue”s
          And what’s with the patronising “Sorry, can’t offer generalised counselling services all day”? I’m not seeking advice, I’m trying to encourage you to unravel and analyse some of your, what I consider to be, rather hairy assumptions.

          • Charles

            re: generalised counselling services.
            The implication of the question you asked had so many possible answers, I couldn’t possibly imagine them all. It was a “you” in a wider readers sense, not you, as in you JanM. So not patronsing at all. I don’t think you missed that point.

            re: “derailing”
            Explaining the parameters of a term isn’t derailing. You asked, I answered, If you already know the answer, or don’t want to hear my answer the way I offer it, talk to yourself for answers you like.

            Ok so your #1 point meant Twyford made an error of grammar? What you reckon is he should’ve said, instead of “Chinese money”, he should’ve said “money that originates somewhere to the west of Japan, owned more or less by people of the nearby continent”?

            Christ. I made no hairy assumptions. I can see what you’re saying. You explained in your first sentence. Racist it was, racist it is, support it for your gain or not.

  7. Rosie 7

    That Ben Guerin is a slow learner. Either that or just really arrogant.

    He Posted this as a response to Lprent’s Dirty Politics Fuckwit post:

    “On Sunday the 12th of July I was a member of the Young Nats team that produced the Kiwi-O-Meter on the url http://howkiwiareyou.nz. I would like to publicly state that this website is not at all affiliated with the New Zealand National Party, New Zealand Parliament, or any National Party MPs; and is not endorsed by, or representative of, the views of my employer.”

    Ben Guerin: a dirty politics fuckwit

    It was pointed out to him that despite his disclaimer that he may have hoped would magic everything away, his employer, Brett Hudson was indeed endorsing the fake howkiwiareyou.nz site on his Brett Hudson list MP facebook page.
    Ben Guerin is not telling the truth when he says his employer doesn’t endorse his actions.

    It’s now the 16th and Brett Hudson still has the fake website up on his facebook page.

    Ben, did you read any responses to your post? Did you take on board the valuable info Lynn gave to you? Do you even speak to your boss? Why is your boss still endorsing your deceitful and murky behaviour?

    • weka 7.1

      Good work Rosie.

      • Rosie 7.1.1

        I’ve asked the sales team at the local paper that covers the Ohariu electorate to discontinue taking Brett Hudson’s weekly advertising fee, and no longer run his ads, due to this sordid little Dirty Politics activity.

        They are actually considering it.

        I don’t think anything will come of it though, especially as it’s just one person asking them to boycott their advertising client. May have been effective if it were a group of us in Ohariu calling for a boycott.

        The other thing, is the paper is not very on to it re politics. They didn’t cover the electorate activities in last years general election and a few months ago they ran a puff piece on Brett Hudson calling their article “Our man in Ohariu”.

        It took a reader to point out to them that Brett Hudson isn’t in fact “our man” and that “our man” was in fact Peter Dunne. …………..

        Gotta try though!

        • weka

          That’s great stuff Rosie. Maybe you could write a guest post for the standard?

          • Rosie

            “Maybe you could write a guest post for the standard?”

            What would I cover? I think it’s all been covered(?)

            Lols. If I were to write a guest post it would be about that most immoral of taxes, GST, how it holds ordinary and poor households back, how it contributes to poverty, how this tax introduced in 1986 has got to go and how it’s abolition should be a policy statement that the Labour Party announce as part of their Centenary celebrations next year.

            Alas, I can only argue it from a moral standpoint as I’m weak on economics and my brain doesn’t function like it used to. In recent years and through to the present I am coping with physical and mental illness and struggle to write in the way I used to.

            I look at essays I wrote seven years ago and ask myself “who wrote this”. The deterioration of the mind, it’s scary.

            GST isn’t on most people’s radar, it’s hardly a sexy topic but many people would be greatly uplifted by it’s disappearance.

            It would be good to see someone write a post on the history and effects of GST and how our lives would change for the better without it, and how the introduction of an FTT and CGT would replace lost tax revenue.

        • Duncan Brown

          I’m interested to know the name of the local paper. I doubt that “They are actually considering it”. What local paper can afford to turn away revenue?

          And would you be happy if the paper also rejected all adverts from a person you agreed with just because other objectors had objected?

          Don’t we also demand that the MSM be fair and balanced, telling both sides of an issue?

          It intrigues me how often people call for a boycott on a business they have a different opinion to. Taken to it’s logical conclusion, you’re going to end up not buying from anyone.

          • Colonial Viper

            that’s how free market pressures work mate. You understand free market pressure, right?

          • Rosie

            “What local paper can afford to turn away revenue?”

            A community paper with a conscience perhaps?

            And you’re mixing journalism up with advertising when you talk about our expectations of media being ‘fair and balanced”. Media can turn away advertising clients at their discretion if they have an ethical issue with the client.

            Ethics. Heard of that? Dirty Politics. Heard of that?

            I doubt they will turn Brett Hudson away but some of us don’t live in the “don’t care about anything” camp and do attempt to right wrongs. Public pressure can work. Even MacDonalds is moving to use only free range eggs in all it’s products by the end of 2016. Chch and Dunedin MacDonalds already use free range eggs. Do you think that happened all by itself?

            As for boycotts. Yes I do boycott a number of businesses and have done for years. It’s what happens in a free market. You have the choice of where to take your business.

          • McFlock

            Don’t we also demand that the MSM be fair and balanced, telling both sides of an issue?

            You’re confusing the reporting side with the editorial side.

  8. Paul 8

    Dreadful and hostile interview by Todd Niall on RNZ of Phil Twyford. What is Todd Naill’s background.
    Is RNZ just becoming another mouthpiece of the National Party?
    Compare that interview with the gentle way Stephen Joyce was handled?

    RNZ clearly has an editorial line that you are not allowed to question the level of foreign speculation in land and property in NZ.

  9. Penny Bright 9

    See this?

    NZ Herald 15 July 2015

    “Top China expert’s answer to property crisis

    By Rodney Jones

    Rodney Jones, a Principal of Wigram Capital Advisors, an Asian macro advisory firm, and who lives in Beijing, weighs in on the debate around what to do with Auckland property.

    “While Phil Twyford’s data set based on names created a storm, and is less than ideal given it is implicitly based on ethnicity, rather than residency or citizenship, it does provide a sense as to the extent of non-resident demand for Auckland property.

    In such a data void, it is natural that people look for informal data sets.

    While Phil Twyford’s data set based on names created a storm, and is less than ideal given it is implicitly based on ethnicity, rather than residency or citizenship, it does provide a sense as to the extent of non-resident demand for Auckland property.

    This is consistent with what has been observed in property markets as varied as Singapore, Hong Kong and Vancouver.

    Across the Asia-Pacific region the anecdotal evidence of demand for offshore property by Chinese residents is overwhelming.

    China is unique in financial history, in that combines a huge stock of financial assets with ill-defined property rights and a still evolving rule of law.

    This mix combines buying power with demand for assets with certain property rights, such as houses on freehold land.

    We have not seen this before, as typically foreign investment by individuals has been financial – equities, bonds and mutual funds.

    To express concerns about the potential impact of these flows is not racism; it is sensible macro prudential management. …”

    Penny Bright

    • greywarshark 9.1

      @ Penny B
      Thanks for that quote. We are in need of this sort of experienced overview and a micro one together, on this issue so important to ordinary NZs, including settled Chinese immigrants and long term Kiwi Chinese citizens.

    • Chooky 9.2

      +100 Penny…always sensible

    • Chooky 9.3

      …and to put it in context…this from Professor Jane Kelsey on New Zealand’s economy:

      ‘The FIRE Economy’


      “How would New Zealanders respond if we faced a crisis of the magnitude confronting Greece today? Or that of Iceland or Ireland in 2009, or Argentina in the early 2000s? That question is at the heart of my new book, The FIRE Economy. New Zealand’s Reckoning, published today by Bridget Williams Books.

      There is a terrible complacency in this country that ‘it couldn’t happen here’. After all, aren’t we a ‘rock star economy’? No one really believes that, unless they have vested interests in talking up the failing status quo. But it is the kind of fiction that sedates the majority of people and avoids confronting unpalatable realities.

      The triggers of a crisis in Aotearoa New Zealand would be different from those in Greece, but our massive levels private – not public – debt in banks and households, and the massively inflated rural and Auckland property markets, mean we are prime candidates for a meltdown.

      We have a chronically sick economy. The only way to make money is to borrow money to invest in the FIRE economy, where the creation of wealth is centred on finance, insurance and real estate. Real jobs, real production, ethical values, commitment to community – scarce at the best of times in a capitalist economy – are treated as relics of history. Shareholder capitalism means maximising short-term returns, while running down the business, exploiting workers, hollowing out the economy and the community…..

      • greywarshark 9.3.1

        That is a good quote from what will be another important book and warning, The Fire Economy, (I guess meaning fire sale) from Jane Kelsey.

        I think this is very pithy and on the nail.
        There is a terrible complacency in this country that ‘it couldn’t happen here’. After all, aren’t we a ‘rock star economy’? No one really believes that, unless they have vested interests in talking up the failing status quo. But it is the kind of fiction that sedates the majority of people and avoids confronting unpalatable realities.

  10. Morrissey 10

    “Say what you like about The Hosk, he works hard.”
    Jack Tame’s empty praise of New Zealand’s shallowest radio host

    Sycophancy: The fawning behavior of a sycophant; obsequious, servile flattery.

    Driving around recently, listening to my car radio, I have twice chanced upon the always pleasant and jolly—except when he’s writing ultra-serious mood pieces about how he feels after playground massacres—Jack Tame. Both times he seems to have had only one thing on his mind….

    NewstalkZB, Saturday 4 July 2015, 11:10 a.m.
    JANET WILSON: So you’re filling in for Mike Hosking on Seven Sharp for a few weeks. How’s it going?
    JACK TAME: Say what you like about The Hosk, he works hard.

    “The Hits”, Wednesday 15 July 2015, 5:25 p.m.
    FLYNNY: So you’re on Seven Sharp again tonight. Have you got a Maserati yet? Like The Hosk?
    JACK TAME: Ha ha ha ha ha! He’s a divisive character, for sure. But I tell you what: he works HARD!

    Mike Hosking works hard? Rubbish. Anyone who listens to him or endures his antics on television can see after a very short time that Hosking does little or no research, and knows less about politics, economics, philosophy or history than a poorly read Year 8 student.

    Jack Tame’s empty words tell us nothing about Mike “The Hosk” Hosking, but they tell us an awful lot about Jack Tame.

    More—if you can bear it—of this Hosk-worshipper….

    Open mike 17/07/2013

    Open mike 21/10/2012

    Open mike 16/12/2012

    • Perhaps Tame was taking the piss? I imagine most of the Husk’s colleagues spend a lot of their time rolling their eyes at his pretensions and laughing along with Jeremy Wells’ wickedly good demolitions of the pompous prick.

      • Morrissey 10.1.1

        Perhaps Tame was taking the piss?

        Quite possibly.

        I imagine most of the Husk’s colleagues spend a lot of their time rolling their eyes at his pretensions and laughing along with Jeremy Wells’ wickedly good demolitions of the pompous prick.

        Jono, Ben and Guy have sent him up wickedly as well.

    • greywarshark 10.2

      I don’t listen to commercial radio at all but this could be how it is: Jack Tame perhaps walking the fine line, not spoiling his chances for further employment so stating the obvious – about Mike Hosking’s busy tongue and speed of (noxious) delivery! And ‘the Hosk’, so blokey. But there are Tamihere and Jackson popular apparently. Just the thing for the hearty chaps and gals out there who don’t want to think too hard about the real nature of things. It’s called survival in today’s world.

  11. Rosie 11

    Coming up at 8.35ish is the Scoop report on Radio Active. Redbird, Grant Robertson and Alistair Thompson are bound to discuss Chinesesoundingnames house sales data.

    They usually discuss a variety of the weeks political events but this one will take up a lot of room.

    If you’re outside of Wellington listen on line:


  12. dv 12

    I was amused to see Aucklanders having a moan about their rats!! (oops rates)

    They look to have a about the same rates as we do, but without 26% increase in our valuations.

    • millsy 12.1

      None seems to be willing to say what services they want to cut to keep rates down.

      • tinfoilhat 12.1.1

        Well they could start with the Mayor and his team, then look to the numerous PR hacks and cronies and then let us start on the absurd number of consultants… $8 million a year on employment agencies for a start.

        Kudos to Penny for continuing her fight against the ACC for all these years.

      • greywarshark 12.1.2

        There was a big fuss a while ago about whether the homeowners or the Council were going to mow the berms outside their houses. And some of the luxurious subdivisions have an almost park area in front of their homes they are finding the money to buy. If they want that, they can form a residents committee and pay for a contractor to do it.

        Someone in my city backing onto an older people’s enclave, either Council or private, noted that they would not sweep fallen leaves in autumn but rang the Council.

        These are cases where Council can cut expenditure, and insist on more resident input, where they are able. Actually I was told that in a part of Denmark, residents were responsible for paying for upkeep of the area in front of their house up to the middle of the road.

        • Draco T Bastard

          There was a big fuss a while ago about whether the homeowners or the Council were going to mow the berms outside their houses.

          What had happened there is that John Banks had got the council mowing the berms in the central city, a lot of which didn’t have berms. Considering the density of the central city this was possibly affordable (but probably not considering how much Banks had run up ACC’s debt).

          Then we got the SuperCity change and all of a sudden the new ACC had a choice of putting up rates to pay for all the mowing that the Auckland sprawl would bring or canning it. They chose to can it. This got the people in central Auckland whinging about the loss of a service. Of course, they would have whinged more and more loudly if the rates had gone up.

  13. Puckish Rogue 13

    The funniest thing about Labours Chinese-bashing stunt is that the left have gone out of their way over the last few decades to make anything to do with race contentious and now Labours getting a taste of their own medicine and they don’t like the taste of it 🙂

    • RedLogix 13.1

      The truly side-splitting thing has been watching the heirs of Orewa work themselves into a ditsy faux-outrage over it.

      • Puckish Rogue 13.1.1

        What goes around comes around and now its Labours turn to be labelled racist, though I have doubts Labour will recieve the same bump in polls that National did but we’ll see I guess

        • RedLogix

          So it’s all ok with your if it gets a ‘bump in the polls’? Good-oh.

          • Puckish Rogue

            No no you misunderstand, I’m a National voter but I’m interested in seeing how this will play out

            The stratagy around politics is fascinating

          • Sabine

            according to national and act ….Yes. 🙂

            and oh, National does it too 🙂

          • The lost sheep

            ‘heirs of Orewa’?

            The Orewa speech was about NOT singling out people for different treatment on the basis of ethnicity, whereas Twford is targeted a specific group for different treatment on the basis of their ethnicity.

            If your moral compass points to Orewa being racist, then Twford’s gambit must be much more so?

            • RedLogix

              ummm … history re-write alert.

              Indeed it was PR who was faffing on about “chinese-bashing” – not me. I’ve comprehensively argued it is not. My moral compass points to the idea that objective facts are in fact NOT racist.

              It is the purpose they are used for which counts. And in this case Labour is using them to stand up for the rights of New Zealanders – that’s their job and they’d be failing in it if they were silenced on it.

              That this may come at the expense of a narrow slice of hyper-wealthy individuals (from China or anywhere else) really doesn’t exercise me all that much.

              • The lost sheep

                ” people with Chinese surnames are buying up big in the Auckland property market”
                ” people living overseas are buying up big in the Auckland property market.”

                One of these statements targets a specific ethic group for attention as the cause of an issue. Can you spot which one it is?

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  The second statement begs the question: how do you know?

                  • The lost sheep

                    Because the person who wrote the first sentence told us that he had come to this conclusion by specifically looking for Chinese surnames in data that contained many other surnames.

                    It’s that word ‘Chinese’.
                    Kind of includes people who are, and excludes people who aren’t.

                    • RedLogix

                      Your so smart.

                      When presented with a list of names that had 50% or more ‘maori sounding’ names on it – what conclusion would you draw if you were then told it was a list of current prison inmates?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      “specifically looking for”.

                      [citation needed]

                      Looks like a strawman to me.

                    • The lost sheep

                      When presented with a list of names that had 50% or more ‘maori sounding’ names on it – what conclusion would you draw if you were then told it was a list of current prison inmates?

                      I would conclude that Maori were included in the group ‘Prison Inmates’, and if an issue came up that all members of the group ‘Prison inmates’ were implicated in, I would be careful to use the term ‘Prison Inmates’, rather than single out ‘ Maori Prison Inmates’ and run the risk of someone thinking I was taking a racist approach to the issue.

                    • Red – why use that example? – what a wanker

                    • RedLogix


                      For someone with such impeccable sensitivity to racism and sexist purity – you’re remarkably fast to make it offensive and personal.


                      So in summary it is racist to talk about Maori being over-represented prisons?

                    • you would use anything and anyone to make your point – what a zero

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Sheep, Marty, twisting yourselves into knots in order to willfully miss R/L’s point much?

                      “Over-represented” is the phrase you are refusing to acknowledge. As such, it’s a very good example.

                    • weka

                      ““Over-represented” is the phrase you are refusing to acknowledge. As such, it’s a very good example.”

                      Not quite. Can you think of situations where the high ratio of Māori in prison compared to their actualy population stats is used against Māori?

                      Data may be neutral. How it gets used isn’t.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      @Weka: “how it gets used isn’t”

                      R/L’s original comment asks: “what conclusion would you draw…?”

                      You’re right, some people will draw odious conclusions, as in this case.

                    • The lost sheep

                      So if you were concerned about violence in prisons you might study a leaked unofficial partial list of ‘prison inmates’ who had been convicted of such offenses, and then go public with the angle that on the basis of obviously Maori surnames there was an issue with ‘Maori violence’ in prisons?

                      I reckon most people would consider that racist on the basis that you were singling out a specific ethnic group as the cause of an issue that actually involved many ethnic groups.

            • Draco T Bastard

              whereas Twford is targeted a specific group for different treatment on the basis of their ethnicity.

              No he didn’t. He simply pointed to the data showing that house prices in Auckland were because of foreign buyers.

              • The lost sheep

                No, nothing targeting Chinese in any of this Draco…sarc.

                It’s every house sold in the Auckland region over that three-month period. What it shows, I think, is striking. Nearly 40% of the houses sold in that period went to people of Chinese descent, and as your introduction pointed out, the Chinese New Zealander population in Auckland, according to the most recent census data, is about 9%. Now, that is a remarkable discrepancy, and, in my view, it’s simply not plausible to suggest, as many have done in the last couple of years, that the Chinese— ethnic Chinese people who are buying houses in Auckland are all Chinese New Zealanders. It points, I think, to only one possible conclusion, and that is that offshore Chinese investors have a very significant presence in the Auckland real estate market when you consider that Auckland house prices are spiralling out of control at the moment.


                • Draco T Bastard

                  Nope, none. Just Twyford pointing out simple facts.

                  It is difficult, if not impossible, to make an argument for or against something if you don’t use facts and Labour’s position, as is mine, is against more foreign ownership (although Labour are still trying to limit it through partial legislation rather than an outright ban as is needed). I suspect that this is true for most NZers.

              • Colonial Viper

                Fuck it Draco, Labour has increased the permissiveness of anti-Chinese sentiment in NZ. And lots of people like yourself are Ok with that while ignoring the voices and opinions of the Kiwi Chinese minority, so maybe Andrew Little and the Leaders Office have done their calculations correctly after all.

                • Clemgeopin

                  Phil Twyford’s words :

                  “As you will be aware, there’s been a lot of commentary and debate on this issue. The majority of feedback has been in support – but there have also been accusations of racism because the data indicated that lots of offshore investment was coming from one particular country.

                  This is not about that. It’s about facing up to the effect foreign property speculation is having on the residential property market and having an open and honest debate about the housing crisis and how we fix it. Overseas buyers are making it harder for all New Zealanders to get on the property ladder, and that includes Chinese New Zealanders.

                  It’s been Labour policy since 2013 to ban overseas, non-resident speculators from buying housing in New Zealand. If people want to immigrate to New Zealand, from whatever country, we’ll welcome them with open arms as new New Zealanders. If offshore investors want to build new houses, we’ll welcome that too, as that adds to New Zealand’s housing stock. But if they are speculating on New Zealand homes, at the expense of resident New Zealanders – whatever their ethnicity – we think that’s wrong”

                  Only fools and horses may misunderstand his words.

                  • Chooky

                    +100 Clem…one has to wonder where some of the critics of Twyford and the Labour Party on facing up to this housing crisis are coming from …this is becoming more and more evident

                    …and their sincerity and loyalty to the interests of the vast majority of New Zealanders is questionable to say the least

                    • Clemgeopin

                      Chooky, it is quite simple:

                      There are two groups of people that are putting the boot into Twyford and the Labour party.

                      1. Almost all of the right wing nasty rogues from National and ACT who have tried to derail the issue as one of ‘racism’ for political expediency.

                      2. Some left wing low IQ do gooders who have completely misunderstood the actual issue and have instead framed the issue as one of ‘racism’ for political stupidity.

                      But no matter…The truth will ultimately prevail.

    • Skinny 13.2

      I don’t think Joyce is finding it funny at all. A friend of mine who’s yacht is berthed at the local marina seen him on Tuesday pacing up and down the walkway and heard him cursing about Labour into his phone. Guess Mr Snake Oil doesn’t like being exposed and the heat being applied over the Auckland property pyramid scheme.

      The thing with pyramid schemes is there all good fun for those who get in and out with the other mugs loot, however eventually punters get rattled and the pyramid crashes and people get burnt. The future is not so bright afterwards for those who get torched and they they bane for blood. Key, Joyce and their cronies will be taking a bath together.

      • Puckish Rogue 13.2.1

        Gee not like that hasn’t been trotted out over the last 7 years…still hasn’t happened though has it

        Even Ken Rings predictions are more accurate and thats saying something

        • Skinny

          Enjoy it why it lasts this lots cycle is in it’s final term.

          The usual bad after taste as their legacy. Oh and the flagship referendum…chuckle…the changing of the flag, yeah wait for the penny to drop when the punters see their winter power bill. I can hear the cursing already. $26 million on a stupid flag referendum, when this Key fucker doesn’t even bother on on a blinding one for our power assets.

          I guess after Key retires to Hawaii and Kiwi’s look back it would be fair to say “John Key the one trick ponytail pulling pony.” Even you must agree with this surely?

          • Colonial Viper

            Enjoy it why it lasts this lots cycle is in it’s final term.

            You really think so? I think Key could be on track for a fourth term; they do need to tighten up on what they do and how they present themselves though.

            As a long range forecast, I’m picking Labour in the 22% to 26% range on election day.

            • b waghorn

              You’re certainly trying you’re hardest to keep them there.

              • Colonial Viper

                unlike them i don’t get paid $160,000 p.a. to come up with badly judged political bullshit; mine is purely volunteer work.

                • b waghorn

                  I’m seeing a party that is growing in strength ,and a leader who is very clever in his management of his MPs . Its game on IMO

            • Skinny

              More wishful thinking CV on my behalf. I am assuming Key will pack it in and they implode in the bachwash. Some in the Labour caucus are too self interested in preserving their own gravy train ahead of the collective membership who they treat with distain. I heard a swing voter on Garners show today that has had a enough of the current regime, but then politely pointed out the same faces, referring to King. It really is the elephant in the room that they choose to ignore rather than address. So yes I concur with your numbers at this point in time, unless of course the back of the axe comes out which is good for 4-5%.

              • Colonial Viper

                yes, Key imploding would do it. But these bastards are pretty good at their succession transitions too.

            • Ergo Robertina

              I wouldn’t bank on a fourth term.
              When the wheels fall off this delinquent regime things will fall apart very quickly. I doubt they’ll make it through this one.
              Labour’s handling of the Auckland housing story – which I initially thought was a huge mistake as it could spin out of control – shows definite signs of improved organisational competence under Little, whatever one’s view of the actual tactic.

              • Colonial Viper

                the “spinning out of control” thing will be proven with August and September’s poll results IMO. For now, Labour has the intense media attention that they were seeking, so from their standpoint its already an early win.

                • Ergo Robertina

                  If it was going to spin out in an omnishambles way it would have by now. Whether it leads to improved polls I have no idea – I’ve given up trying to second guess what has an impact on people.
                  The media coverage has certainly been intense – some of it supportive and some hostile.

                  • Mike the Savage One

                    Very much rather very critical, even hostile, at least on TV3, see my comment further below.

                    • Ergo Robertina

                      I guess a mixed response isn’t all that surprising given the polarising nature of the story.
                      The Herald’s been pretty supportive; Fairfax has been quite negative.
                      Re TV3, its political reporting is appalling (apart from some good work by Sabin). A few weeks back they seemed to assiduously ignore the Saudi sheep story – was quite surprised by that.

                • Skinny

                  Yeah I’m not happy about the handling of the Auckland property issue but the bridge head at this point in time needed to be broken to keep them in the fight. Either way National bleed and Labour need to be moving in close to keep the fight tight. The Nats will cut the Maori party before the next election and insight Maori bashing which is a tried and true winner so maybe the LP have deverted this for now and can muster the nationalism counter attack when that card is played. It’s going to get dirty for sure.

    • Roflcopter 13.3

      Labour has a long history of bashing Chinese, I guess this what Labour means when they say “getting back to Party roots”.

  14. Clean_power 14

    Rule number 1: when in a hole, stop digging. Mr Twyford should do that.

    • McFlock 14.1

      Rule number 2: always thank and enemy for their concern, but never assume their advice was given in good faith.

      so: thanks for your concern.

      • Gangnam Style 14.1.1

        +1 McFlock, the rights lines are transparently crap, no one feels sorry for property developers or the parasitic real estate agents. Tossers.

  15. Chooky 15

    Good article by Chris Trotter

    ‘Perilous Whites: Labour, China and the Liberal Intelligentsia’


    “THE OUTCRY precipitated by Labour’s critique of overseas Chinese investment in the Auckland housing market is profoundly disturbing. The “Liberal Intelligentsia” (to use Steven Joyce’s term) has reacted to Phil Twyford’s and Rob Salmond’s data as if this is 1915, not 2015….

    • weka 15.1

      Is he using the term ‘liberal intelligensia’ in a derogatory way?

      Kind of like people have picked up the term ‘purity’ here recently and started to use it meanly.

      • Colonial Viper 15.1.1

        Trotter’s piece starts out well, recognising that China is now returning to its normal pre-eminence in the Asia Pacific and that NZ has to realise that the order of things has changed.

        But instead of triggering a discussion on NZ’s strategy and approach to this geopolitical and economic shift, he complains that the left’s “liberal intelligentisia” are missing the big picture of how we are to protect ourselves from this transformation, in the way they have reacted to Labour’s weekend foray into race politics.

        Trotter might consider that might be because Labour was not actually interested in starting a broader discussion on the impact of China’s rise on NZ society and consequences for our nation’s strategies for the future. Labour’s interests were far more narrow and parochial than that.

        • Skinny

          Trotter had an opportunity to line Hide up and crack him over the role he played with fucked up Auckland property market. His supersux city plan.

  16. greywarshark 16

    Thinking about the new flag idea. If our present flag is changed now or in the near future, it will signal the end of an era for NZ. The end of the first colonial area and the hopes and dreams that went with it. The new flag will flaunt the strength and control of the new corporate era with limited human rights, enhanced property rights, and mercantile interests over every other consideration.

    I want to see NZ restored to a place where all people have reasonable prosperity and those who are wealthy will have worked at their own business successfully. And the country being run in a careful way to conserve what’s good and lessen even eliminate most of what is negative for us. That’s a while off so I don’t agree with the new flag now or soon.

    • Roflcopter 16.1

      A flag doesn’t define a nation, it’s people do.

      It’s irrelevant what’s on it, please explain exactly how it looks influences what we do, and how we do it.

      • Colonial Viper 16.1.1

        A flag doesn’t define a nation, it’s people do.

        Spot on

        • RedLogix


          But symbols are always important. Like Mt Fuji does not define Japan, but you try telling them its’ just a pile of rock’.

          • Colonial Viper

            Yes, symbols are very important, I agree. I always think – in the 19th century the grandest building in town was a place of worship. In the 21st century it is either a shopping mall or a finance tower.

            • Draco T Bastard

              Actually, the grandest buildings in town have been banks for the last four or five centuries.

              • Colonial Viper

                no, I don’t think that’s true. What bank building in what city are you thinking of?

        • Olwyn

          A flag, however, is symbol of authority – think of the flags on ships, which are meant to indicate the authority under which they sail. I am deeply suspicious of the flag-change idea, coming as it does in tandem with the TPP agreement. It suggests to me that Mr Key thinks that in changing the flag he can also muddy the authority under which the NZ government acts. Even without changing the flag, he has shown little respect for the limits and conditions of that authority. So long as loans keep rolling in, and house prices don’t crash, he feels free lie with impunity and to use the the state apparatus for whatever purpose suits him.

          • Roflcopter

            Rubbish… the Government’s coat-of-arms is the symbol of authority.

            The flag should be a reflection of the nation, it has nothing to do with authority.

            Disclaimer: I can see both sides of the flag debate, I’m fence-sitting at the moment on change.

            • Olwyn

              Of course a flag has something to do with authority – think of the role of the flag in the military, think of the outrage at flag burning, and the rejection of someone’s claims to authority that lies behind it. The idea that the sun will never set on the British flag is meant to say that the British will never submit to an alien authority… and so on.

              • Roflcopter

                Military: The flag says “this is us”, it doesn’t confer any amount of authority over anyone. The actions of the people define the authority, and happens irrespective of the flag.

                Burning: It doesn’t reject authority, it basically says “we hate anyone from {insert burning flag country here}”.

                Sun will never set: That’s not an authoritative statement, it’s the collective will of the people who it represents. The flag is irrelevant.

                • Olwyn

                  I said it was a symbol of authority – a piece of fabric is not authority per se – and it is generally treated as such. Think of the ritualistic lowering and folding of the flag when a military base is vacated for example. There is more to it than “this is us.”

              • alwyn

                What is this “outrage” about burning a flag?
                According to the New Zealand Culture and Heritage website that is precisely what you are supposed to do with an old flag.
                As they say

                “How should I dispose of an old flag?

                The New Zealand Flag should never be flown in a dilapidated condition. You should dispose of an old flag by burning it discreetly in some type of incinerator,”

                • Olwyn

                  I think you know the form of public flag-burning that I am talking about – perhaps Tama Iti’s allegedly shooting the NZ flag might offer a clearer example of someone destroying a flag to show rejection of the authority with which it is associated.

                  • McFlock

                    I’m damned sure Alwyn was just being Alwyn: pretending to be unaware that the police tried to call flag-burning offensive behaviour. And the quote in the article “To burn the flag is an absolute slight. That’s the flag I served under, I think it’s disgusting” seems to be close to an expression of outrage.

            • weka

              “The flag should be a reflection of the nation,”

              But it’s irrelevant what’s on it? How does that work?

  17. Nick Morris 17

    A new flag will be appropriate when we ditch the royals and finally cut the apron-strings with the UK. As our ethnic profile changes – pretty quickly to judge from current news – this day is likely come sooner rather than later.

    In the meanwhile the negative reaction to the flag change is just a passive-aggressive de-facto vote on John Key and his administration.

    • McFlock 17.1

      I agree – we’re in the south pacific (southern cross on blue), but our head of state is still a British monarch (union jack at the top).

      Change that, then we have an excuse to change the flag. Change the flag without changing that, and we’re just lying to ourselves.

  18. ianmac 18

    Dita does it again re overseas precedent for the Hager-like raids. Her writing is so clear and unequivocal:

    “One that springs to mind is that of Audrey Hudson of the Washington Times, who was given a rude awakening at 4:30 one morning two years ago by armed government agents on the pretext of a search warrant for her husband’s firearms. (Probably a little less “polite and friendly” than the Hager raid then, as described by the Crown counsel).

    While inside the American journalist’s house, the agents took all sorts of notes, articles, materials and other information, including the identities of people who had supplied Hudson information on the Department of Homeland Security, which she just happened to be investigating and reporting on…..”


  19. Steve Reeves 19

    I’m guessing in NZ we no longer collect this sort of data or write these sorts of report….but this is probably true here as well…the majority of poor children are from working families…and “just get a job” is not actually the way out of being poor any more…which in the UK and here seems to be the only idea that the govt has come up with..


    • McFlock 19.1

      a little over 1/3 in NZ.

      The criticism still stands, though – all work should provide a dignified income, not just perpetuate poverty.

      • Molly 19.1.1

        “Bread and Roses” eh, McFlock.

        “…The slogan pairing bread and roses, appealing for both fair wages and dignified conditions, found resonance as transcending “the sometimes tedious struggles for marginal economic advances” in the “light of labor struggles as based on striving for dignity and respect”, as Robert J. S. Ross wrote in 2013….” – Wikipedia

        Just watched the dramatisation Pride (2014), and enjoyed the rendition there:

        Bread & Roses sung by Bronwyn Lewis

  20. adam 20

    Just an argument for a the left in NZ to get it together for internationalism.

    Am I alone thinking, that the navel gazing of the last few days must have ever Tory in this country rubbing their hands in glee.

    The left were the first internationalist – we reached across boarders/cultures and embraced each other, as workers under the thumb of Tory idiocy. Contrary to how some want to play it out, the left was at the forefront of fighting racism, and other divisive tools the Tory scum use to divide and rule.

    So let me put my case why we need to reach out again, and why we need to stop the navel gazing. You remember the Rock Star economy? You know who coined the term? Here I’ll let the Herald remind you –


    Notice the date please of this piece by the herald – the 10th of April. Because not two day’s earlier, this broke.


    Now a few days ago HSBC agreed to pay a fine to the Swiss government – But that comes with a hook. No admission of guilt.


    Because if you think for one minute that the Tory bastards here and across the globe are not talking and working together your in lala land. Yes some of the elites are fighting each other, and using us as fodder – in that, nothing changes. But the reality is – these bastards are all playing from the same play book.

    We are not alone folks. I could add hundred of links that the crippling and divisive actions of our Tory scum, is the same crippling and divisive actions of the Tory scum in Australian, England, Germany, and the USA.

    You want solutions to this attack on working people, you want to end the crippling, and vicious attacks by our our of touch Tory idiots? Time to reach out, to workers and friends across the globe. Can I suggest you look how bad it really is in China for working people – One wee link to look at –

    Please This link comes with a MAJOR WARNING!!!!! It has photographs and descriptions of young workers who have taken their own lives.


    • Poission 20.1

      You remember the Rock Star economy? You know who coined the term?

      The Washington post

      Three years ago Sweden was widely regarded as a role model in how to deal with a global crisis. The nation’s exports were hit hard by slumping world trade but snapped back; its well-regulated banks rode out the financial storm; its strong social insurance programs supported consumer demand; and unlike much of Europe, it still had its own currency, giving it much-needed flexibility. By mid-2010 output was surging, and unemployment was falling fast. Sweden, declared The Washington Post, was “the rock star of the recovery.


      • Colonial Viper 20.1.1


      • Skinny 20.1.2

        An insult to the Nation’s pop star group ABBA
        New Zealand should do the right thing and correct this injustice.

        National and their Pop Star economic vision. Yes much more realistic. Rock was always too solid.

  21. Penny Bright 21



    Protest today by concerned New Zealanders outside Minister of Trade Tim Groser’s New Lynn Office:

    WHEN: Thursday 16 July 2015

    WHERE: 3136 Gt Nth Rd New Lynn

    TIME: 3.30 – 5.30pm

    With today’s news of the further collapse in dairy prices – how can NZ dairy farmers trust NZ Minister of Trade Tim Groser to negotiate the best possible deal for NZ dairy under the secretive, pro-corporate Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPPA)?


    Particularly when the USA is currently awash with milk – which they are literally tipping down the drain?


    Why on earth would the USA want more milk from New Zealand?

    Can Fonterra representatives see the TPPA text?

    Yes or no?

    If NO – then how can NZ dairy farmers feel confident about what exactly Minister of Trade Tim Groser is negotiating on their behalf?

    How come over 600 USA corporate advisors can see the TPPA text?

    (Here’s the list!)


    What about PHARMAC?

    Why is Minister of Trade Tim Groser, arrogantly dismissing the concerns of senior medical professionals, over the potential impact of the TPPA on the health of New Zealanders regarding Pharmac?


    How can the Minister of Trade, Tim Groser, be trusted to look after New Zealand’s ‘national interest’, when the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security is currently investigating (at her own volition) the use of the New Zealand GCSB – to spy on Tim Groser’s rivals in his (unsuccessful) bid for the leadership of the World Trade Organisation (WTO)?


    How was THAT in New Zealand’s ‘national interest’, and arguably how could Tim Groser NOT have known about it?

    Can Tim Groser really be trusted to look after the best interests of New Zealand, the New Zealand people and New Zealand businesses – especially exporters?

    Remember – Tim Groser is ‘widely tipped’ to be the next NZ Ambassador to the USA.


    “As previously noted by Cognito, Trade Minister Tim Groser is widely tipped to replace Mike Moore as New Zealand’s Ambassador to the United States.

    If Minister Groser is moving on from his ministerial responsibilities with the National-led Government, he will be wanting to leave his stamp on the Trade portfolio which he has held since 2008. Delivering a significant milestone in New Zealand’s TPP journey would ensure he leaves on a high. …”

    WHOM exactly will benefit from New Zealand signing the TPPA – behind the backs of the New Zealand people, New Zealand MPs and New Zealand businesses?

    It might be good for Tim Groser – but what about the New Zealanders whose ‘national interest’ he allegedly represents?


    Penny Bright

  22. Gosman 22

    So much for Syriza’s election earlier this year heralding a monumental change.


    • Colonial Viper 22.1

      That’s the point you are reinforcing Gosman. Germany wanted to send the signal to the rest of Europe that democracy and socialism would be crushed mercilessly if it got in the way of the banking and finance bosses of Europe. And if a small Mediterranean country of 12M people had to be fucked over to communicate the message loud and clear, so be it.

      • Puckish Rogue 22.1.1

        Or maybe Greece could have reformed their systems, collected some taxes, cut down on the corruption etc etc

        • Colonial Viper

          Irrelevant. None of that will allow Greece to pay back their 300B in debt, and Greece has already under gone the largest internal economic devaluation of any country in the Eurozone, as demanded by the Troika. Look where it has got Greece 5 years later.

          As I said, this is not about economics or the mathematics of paying back the debt. Simply, Germany wanted the small country of Greece crushed, and wanted the Greek democracy subjugated, to make a point to the rest of Europe.

  23. Gosman 23

    Looks like another Socialist experiment is heading rapidly for the scapheap of history.


  24. Draco T Bastard 24

    Everything I wish I’d known at 17 about creating value

    The passive income endgame

    So you can produce novelty. It’s cheaper than ever to make a novel artifact.

    If that artifact is information-based, a multiplier emerges: you can sell that novelty as many times as you can find a buyer for it. That’s why there’s so much money swirling around Silicon Valley.

    It’s a region that produces money printers.

    Put novelty into a form that can be distributed automatically and your bank balance increases whether you go to work that day or not. Of course, building a business is a lot more complicated than that.

    But the end goal is a cybernetic golden goose.

    If want to be prosperous in the 21st century, you’ll need your own goose

    As a multimillionaire once told me: Working will never make you rich, you get others to work for you

  25. Chooky 25

    ‘Chinese property speculation & TPPA – why it’s about Tino Rangatiratanga ‘


    “Chinese interests own the National Party, so for them to have an opinion more pro Beijing than Wellington shouldn’t be a surprise.

    If Labour were smart, they would compare their concerns about Chinese overseas residential property speculators with the TPPA, because this is ultimately about Tino Rangatiratanga…

  26. maui 26

    I’m sure there will be a post on this soon, but Fonterra a bit top heavy? 523 jobs to go. The end of white gold and the Rockcow economy.

  27. McFlock 27

    Oh look, privatising prison operations has a down side. Who knew?

    Apparently, not only does Serco not stop cellphones getting in, or have so little control over their prison that fight tournaments freely take place, the facility is so out of their control that the tournaments are recorded and posted to youtube.

    slow clap…

  28. sabine 28

    fonterra to sack 523 people

    The review, undertaken by an internal management team and business management consultancy McKinsey & Co, was started in December when it became clear the global dairy market wasn’t recovering as quickly as hoped.
    The job losses come as world dairy prices continue to sink with prices in the latest GlobalDairyTrade auction falling 10.7 per cent to $US2,082 ($NZ3,162), the lowest level since July 2009.
    Units in the Fonterra Shareholders’ Fund fell 1.1 per cent to $4.72, and have declined 21 per cent this year.

    Read more: http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/fonterra-to-axe-hundreds-of-jobs-2015071613#ixzz3g1plEdwU


    funny, i got information yesteday that the price for my milk will go up. Guess someone has to pay for the re-strucuring.

  29. Mike the Savage One 29

    Tova O’Brien spreading more lies about Labours “names data”, making claims not even Labour’s Phil Twyford has made:


    In another desperate attack on Labour and Phil’s metadata from a real estate agent source, Tova O’Brien dares to claim now, that Phil Twyford and Labour have claimed that 3 quarters of persons with ethnic Chinese names are “off shore” buyers. She must be meaning the comparison of the 9 percent census population share data for Auckland to the near 40 percent sales names for residential real estate for three months.

    Now, did Phil Twyford and Labour actually make such a claim? I think that this was not so. It is just flabbergasting how the MSM get away with twisting and misrepresenting stuff again, again and yet again.

    No wonder we have the government and system we have, misinformation dominates, and any attempt to shine light on what may go on, is straight away ridiculed or aggressively attacked and shot down.

    The rest of this “news item”, a desperate attempt to disprove Labour’s suggestions that there may be a significant off-shore buyer share on the Auckland market, follows two other news items on each of the preceding two nights, all to attack Labour. And the quickly gathered, hand-picked data TV3 presents is according to the broadcaster supposed to be “statistical” as well, I presume. A big FAIL, I reckon, an embarrassing “news” bit.

    Shame on you, Tova.

    • ankerawshark 29.1

      Mike the savage one ………saw Tova O’brien’s piece. disgraceful.

  30. Morrissey 30

    MEMO Jerome Kaino:
    It’s the referee that was unpredictable in the RWC final

    Seven Sharp, Television One, Thursday 16 July 2015

    Tonight’s programme started with a special media conference: three All Blacks (Dan Carter, Jerome Kaino and Nepo Laulala) being asked questions not by hard-bitten rugby reporters but by a bunch of kids.

    Now that sounds like a good idea, and for most of the session the interaction between the players and the kids was indeed lighthearted and positive. The kids asked questions like “Is it true that all the best All Blacks come from Canterbury?” and the players answered humorously and adeptly.

    However, there was one troubling moment: Jerome Kaino’s cliché-larded and misleading answer to one question…..

    YOUNG FAN: What has been your toughest game and why?
    JEROME KAINO: [suddenly grim] Ah, I’d have to say the 2011 Rugby World Cup final. The French were quite unpredictable.

    Of course, in that match the Tricolors were not able to be “unpredictable” because the home side (New Zealand) cynically destroyed any chance that France might have had to play football by systematic, flagrant offside play, continually killing the ball and playing the ball illegally on the ground. Jerome Kaino was one of the worst offenders.

    The unpredictability in that game was that of the so-called “referee”, Craig Joubert, who throughout the game refused to penalize the home side. When it became clear that Joubert would not do anything to stop them, the All Blacks naturally took advantage of the situation, and fouled throughout the game.

    The cuteness of the young interviewers doesn’t seem to have had any impact on the All Blacks’ established practice of casually mouthing obfuscatory bullshit. No matter what the audience, even when talking to kids, the players, just like “Sir” Graham Henry and the management team, are still resolutely on message.

    • Reddelusion 30.1

      Your one sad miserable puppy Morrissey if that clip got you going, man how pathetic, let it go it was 4 years ago, the show was about the kids not the abs you ding bat

      • Morrissey 30.1.1

        Your [sic] one sad miserable puppy Morrissey if that clip got you going,

        No, what got me, and many others—especially in France—“going” was not that clip, but the sight of the travesty unfolding, live. Something tells me that YOU do not understand French, but people interested in fair play should watch the following analysis of that farcical night in October 2011….

        man how pathetic, let it go it was 4 years ago,

        That game was a disgrace as it happened, and it doesn’t get any better with the passage of time.

        the show was about the kids not the abs you ding bat

        The show was a highly organized PR exercise, given massive free publicity by Television One and other media.

  31. The lost sheep 31

    Some interesting reading here…….

    Topically, here’s the summary of the respective positions of NZ and Greece. (Obviously written some time before Syriza’s rapid destruction of the Greek economy)

    New Zealand advances one rank to 17th place—
    its best rank since the introduction of the current GCI
    methodology. Among the highlights, the country is
    ranked 1st in the institutions pillar and features in the top
    10 of five more pillars. In particular, New Zealand ranks
    third in the financial market development pillar. It boasts
    an excellent education system (9th), while the efficiency
    of its goods (6th) and labor (6th) markets is among the
    highest in the world.

    Following the recovery that started last year, Greece
    advances 10 spots to reach 81st place. Improvements
    in the functioning of its goods market (85th) with
    enhanced levels of competition (71st) and more flexible
    labor markets (although they remain rather rigid, 117th),
    along with a better macroeconomic performance with
    a sharp reduction in the budget deficit, have resulted in
    this more positive outlook despite its very high levels of
    government debt. All this suggests that the implemented
    reforms are starting to pay off. Notwithstanding this
    better performance, Greece continues to face important
    challenges that need to be addressed in order to
    continue improving its competitiveness. More precisely,
    the functioning of its institutions remains weak and it
    achieves a poor evaluation for government efficiency
    (129th), its financial market (130th) has not yet recovered
    from the recent financial crisis, there are concerns
    about the soundness of its banks (141st), and access to
    financing (136th) remains the most problematic factor
    for doing business in the country. Moreover, in order to
    support a structural change of the Greek economy so
    that it can move toward more productive, knowledge-
    based activities, it will need to boost its innovation
    capacity (109th). That will require improvements in the
    quality of its education system (111th) as well as higher
    investments in knowledge-generating activities, such as
    R&D (114th).

  32. Reddelusion 32

    Yep unfortunately another case study of socialism crashing and burning. It fails as usual when the strategy of using other peoples money runs dry and they have squeezed the life out of the wealth generation and industrial, innovative capacity of the economy. More than often replaced with a bloated public service creating sweet nothing or heavily subsidised and inefficient state enterprises

  33. Thom Pietersen 33

    Why does it seem New Zealand does not understand what racism means anymore. The lines have been blurred between sovereignty, citizenship and nationality.

    It seems to me people are choosing which bandwagon to jump on in order to justify their world view, some are genuine, others disingenuous, and some plain patronising.

    The unregulated housing market most now recognise is detrimental to resident kiwis no matter how hard they work.

    Housing has become a global financial market and is no longer about having a home, it’s an investment. If values keep going up as currently trending, I’m sure the government feels this will self finance peoples retirement years that the state can no longer afford due to reduced taxation, and keep the baby boomers within the means they are used to. Just see what you can buy for equivalent money in the US (forget the likes of New York – no matter what anyone says, no where in New Zealand compares), this is because Americans rely on their 401K etc.

    The problem has been raised by the only means available to get it into the MSM, this has been whispered under breath for over a decade, it has to be dealt with. It’s a festering boil, distorting our low wage economic market. It meets all the macroeconomic ideals of building wealth, but it’s a false economy based on future debt, no long term rental rights, and a new landowner class.

    Chinese people are not the evil, easy money from China based investors is the problem.

    I’m going to guess that a large proportion of the people offended by apparent racial overtures on this blog are not ethnically Chinese, that in itself is uncomfortable. You cannot act as thought police, accusing people genuinely concerned about national interests with colonial era racism.

    • Reddelusion 33.1

      Sorry to disappoint you thorn but expression from local Chinese leaders and local Chinese media ( not necessary investors) are that they are offended by this racial profiling

      possibly over done re faux outrage but the left are so good at throwing the racist tag around it is quite humorous seen them squirm over this issue

    • Chooky 33.2

      +100 Thom Pietersen

  34. Reddelusion 34

    Agree not all Syrisa fault, Greece has been a basket case for years, bloated public service, inefficien and heavily subsidised state industries, tax fraud by all of society, massive welfare fraud, government corruption ….. etc cheap money kept it going but the tap has been turned off A good dose of neoliberal economics will do it some good, unfortunately one generation will have to go through the transition. tough love by the Germans

  35. Reddelusion 35

    most appropriate Syrisa stewardship of Greece would make Basel proud,

    Cybil ( Merkel) is back now

  36. Reddelusion 36

    Where Phil Ure, have not heard from him for ages ?

  37. newsense 37

    If Labour is not going to speak for these people, and the Nats certainly aren’t, who will?


    • Weepus beard 37.1

      Not the Greens. They’re too busy with cycleways that only the privileged can afford to use.

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