Open mike 16/10/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 16th, 2015 - 90 comments
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openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

90 comments on “Open mike 16/10/2015 ”

  1. Matthew Hooton 1

    Clever cartoon in Herald today by Rod Emmerson on Labour’s current leader. Little is right up there (down there?) with Bill English in 2002/3.
    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11529860

    • Paul 1.1

      Yup, I partly agree with you Matthew about Labour’s TPP positioning.
      Labour missed the chance to stand firmly against the TPP.
      Chris Trotter nailed it.

      ‘Why has Andrew Little rejected a winning TPPA strategy for a guaranteed loser?’

      Trotter suggests that Labour may no longer be “committed to meaningful social and economic change”.

      http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2015/10/14/flouting-the-rules-why-has-andrew-little-rejected-a-winning-tppa-strategy-for-a-guaranteed-loser/

      • Matthew Hooton 1.1.1

        He could have kicked for touch (waited for text), opposed TPP or declared victory and supported TPP. Any of these would have had internal integrity and been politically ok. He managed to find the one form of words certain to fuck off both pros and antis and make him and his party look ridiculous. Quite an achievement in its own way!

        • Jenny Kirk 1.1.1.1

          Andrew Little did “kick for touch”, Matthew Hooton, and he’s been descried for doing so ! He’s said he didn’t know all the details, what’s fully in the text, and he’s opposed parts he does know about, and what’s more – he’s also said that if necessary a Labour government would breach parts of the agreement it doesn’t approve of. What more do you all want ?

          • weka 1.1.1.1.1

            1. Labour opposes the TPP on principle unless it meets these 5 bottoms lines (list them again).

            2. At this stage Labour has no control over whether NZ is part of the TPP, only National does and its allied parties.

            3. Labour will not pull out of the TPP when it is government, because we feel that is not in NZ’s best interests (provide an explanation of why this is so).

            4. Instead Labour will endeavour to address each of our 5 bottoms lines one by one eg Labour will still pass legislation restricting overseas land ownership.

            5. We will then fight any disputes process that happens as a result. (here Labour needs to provide a very clear explanation of what that actually means, including how it will deal with being sued by corporations).

            That’s the gist of what they’ve done, but the issues in brackets in 3. and 5. haven’t been explained and sorry, but I don’t trust Labour on those things.

          • Chris 1.1.1.1.2

            Little and Labour stuffed up its position on the TPP in exactly the same way it did on the flag change fiasco and three bloody peaks or whatever it’s called. It’s either because the people in there have such opposing views on everything that any attempt at a compromise will always fail or they’re just very very stupid when it comes to strategy. Suspect it’s way more than a bit of both.

        • tracey 1.1.1.2

          Clearly the voters don’t give a shit about integrity Matthew or National wouldn’t be in a third term. They forgive lying and misleading regularly if they believe the nonsense about them getting a better life. I mean even you were prepared to dance around the law and its intent for your ideological beliefs and career progression?

          • infused 1.1.1.2.1

            You might want to think about the shit show the country has to vote for as an alternative. But hey.. keep saying the public is stupid. Seems to be working.

    • Morrissey 1.2

      Emmerson?!!??!??

      In April 2002, when the New Zealand Herald cartoonist Malcolm Evans dared to criticize the Holy State for its depradations in the Occupied West Bank (this was just after the Jenin massacre) the Israeli consulate, in concert with influential supporters including David Nathan, Dame Lesley Max and David Zwarz, mounted a sustained campaign of character assassination and vilification against Evans, combined with snarling threats against the Herald‘s editor, Gavin Ellis, a weak character who needed little more than a few swear words down the telephone to frighten him. He sacked Evans eventually, replacing him with the pisspoor Rod Emmerson.

      http://www.voxy.co.nz/national/protest-against-former-herald-editor/5/141168

    • b waghorn 1.3

      I’ve found Littles views on the tpp easy to understand anyone who is struggling is either listening to the people that have set out to deflect trouble away from the nats pathetic bargaining in the negotiations of the tpp or is one of the shit stirrers

      • Paul 1.3.1

        Can you point me to a link showing his unqualified opposition to TPP?
        I really want to see the Labour Party standing against it.

        • savenz 1.3.1.1

          Yep you would think Labour could be bothered clearing up the variation between Littles statements and their TPPA position on their website or FB page at least.

          Little’s statements don’t seem in line with their ‘official’ TPPA position which has more holes in it anyway than swiss cheese, and doesn’t even seem to be able to stick with that either.

          And b wag horn you can dismiss all the ex Labour supporters as

          set out to deflect trouble away from the nats pathetic bargaining in the negotiations of the tpp or is one of the shit stirrers

          which maybe Labours official position on anyone who is confused (they are just shit stirrers) but again that 15% of votes they lost last election should be a ring-a-ding moment for understanding that those angry ex supporting ‘shit stirrers’ are voters who are sending them a message that after 7 years you would think they might concede they need to address.

          • savenz 1.3.1.1.1

            And like me, are still giving Labour their electorate vote so stop National getting it.

            It can still get a lot worse for Labour – they are antagonising their voters who still give their electoral vote to them.

          • Matthew Hooton 1.3.1.1.2

            I think Labour’s problem is that had convinced themselves the TPP would be diabolical. When they learned on Monday all five of their bottom lines had been met, they experienced cognitive dissonance that they need to work through. In the meantime, they are stuck in that awful place where ten facts are not the ones you want to believe.

            • weka 1.3.1.1.2.1

              “all five of their bottom lines had been met”

              how do you know that?

              • tracey

                He is probably referring to Little’s briefing from Groser and all the inside information he doesn’t have on TPP which would mean someone is breaching the crucial secrecy which denied the rest of us access to same.

                • weka

                  heh, I was wondering if Hooton was a fly on the wall, or simply spinning.

                  • tracey

                    My observation of Matthew is unless he is getting hot under the colour and going all screamy and ad hominem he only pushes hard (and repeatedly) on things he is SURE about (apologies for the mental image that may have produced, not intended). he may not have seen stuff but somebody/s have told him enough for him to feel he is on sure ground… which would also be a breach of the secrecy

          • b waghorn 1.3.1.1.3

            I guess some here need to decide what’s more important getting a new government or killing labour and hoping something better rises from the ruins.

        • b waghorn 1.3.1.2

          I never said they opposed it, my take on it is ;
          In the lead up to signing they applied as much pressure on national as they could to get them to not sell us out .
          After the signing they have gone for a sensible amount of caution on what they say so as not to be tricked into tight corner by key and co .
          While also making it clear they will find away to legislate for protecting nz residents chances of owning there own home.

          People need to learn to keep an eye on what the main players are saying and not getting sidetracked by all the chatter coming from likes of hooton .

  2. Jenny Kirk 2

    to Paul @ 1.3.1. on Stuff, 11 October 2015 – at end of story re “bigger gains for dairy from India, Indonesia” –
    Andrew Little is quoted as saying ” If it came to walking away from the TPPA to get a better deal elsewhere, Little said a Labour government reserved that right”.

    • savenz 2.1

      Hi Jenny – reserving your right is not really saying NO to TPP.

      I think that is what Labour don’t get. People don’t want to support a party that does not give a clear message on TPP, which is going to affect all part of Kiwi’s lives, heath, housing, law, copywrite, justice, security, transparancy, sovereignty and trade.

      The fact it was pushed through so that Obama can have some sort of legacy (after the trillions in US debt and an un win able occupation) is even worse. Obama has hardly left the US or the planet in better shape after his presidency. A last ditch attempt to put US and other countries jobs at risk and the reduction in environmental sovereignty into corporate control under TPP seems to be more of the same.

      People have a right to know concrete policy before they support a party. Labour can ‘reserve’ their right to walk away on TPP even the Natz can, but we all know they will not.

      • Matthew Hooton 2.1.1

        “Reserving the right to withdraw” utterly meaningless. All 12 TPP countries “reserve the right to withdraw”. That is why they put the withdrawal provisions in the deal.

    • tracey 2.2

      “get a better deal ”

      Does that mean more money? Cos I don’t see any major party judging this on anything other than $$$$. Not on erosion of rights or sovereignty etc.

      Also, has he laid out which law changes Labour would oppose, he clearly has some in mind?

    • weka 2.3

      Andrew Little is quoted as saying ”If it came to walking away from the TPPA to get a better deal elsewhere, Little said a Labour government reserved that right”.

      Yep, better deal elsewhere. Labour don’t have a problem with free market neoliberalism. I don’t think they have any intention of moving left, they’re just going to tinker with the edges a bit. Think Clark government lite.

      • savenz 2.3.1

        They are worse than Clark because she at least had the balls to complain about international stuff that was wrong (like Israeli agents stealing disabled NZ identities and be caught) and do something about it. I think both Key and Little would just let any similar incident ride rather than cause an international incident. Key would probably be keen to make money out of passports anyway (finally a return on investment from the disabled – fake international passports).

        As for Labour being briefed on the document – it is massive – so as with any agreement the devil is in the detail. I’m sure it all looks rosy in the briefing papers but try to get the whole agreement to see if it is true. No can do as Prof Kelsey has found. And apparently noone can find out for 7 years.

        Sounds transparent and fair – NOT.

  3. ScottGN 3

    It’s the last few days of the Canadian federal election campaign.
    The central issue of the longest campaign in Canadian history has been how to get rid of Stephen Harper.
    It looks increasingly likely that Canadians have decided Justin Trudeau and the Liberal Party are the means by which that will be achieved.
    The Grits have established a 4 to 7% lead over the Tories nationally but more importantly they’re leading by 10 to 13% in Ontario (which accounts for over a third of all the federal ridings).
    http://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/poll-tracker/2015/index.html

  4. Tory 4

    I hope today that when John Key meets with Australian PM, he advocates on behalf of law abiding Kiwis living in Australia getting a better deal rather than the sc*m who assulted, robbed, raped and burgled law abiding people and now are claiming they have been discriminated against as they are being deported from a country that opened its door to them.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1

      No you don’t. You don’t care a damn about anyone other than yourself.

    • vto 4.2

      You’re ignorant on this issue too aren’t you… keep that talkback radio turned up

      • savenz 4.2.1

        + 1 VTO

      • Draco T Bastard 4.2.2

        Tories are, inevitably, ignorant on pretty much everything. It’s that lack of knowledge combined with their inability to think that allows the psychopaths running National to lead them around by the nose.

        • infused 4.2.2.1

          No. Just the left being incoherent dumb asses who think they know better than everyone else.

          • maui 4.2.2.1.1

            Why do you hangout with so called dumb asses so often then and complain about the site being full of whingers when you’re whinging most of the time?

            I thought you had turned a corner and right now I feel a bit let down.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 4.3

      Take this comment for example. Classic flamebait, calling people “scum”, wishing human rights abuse upon them, and then paying lip service to personal responsibility makes Tory a dull hypocrite.

      For his next trick, Tory will vote for the party that always generates more unemployment – yes it does, that’s a fact – and then start hating on poor people.

      Go smash a ten-year-old rugby player, trash.

  5. Tory 5

    OAB, no I support personal responsibility rather than reliance on the State as a surrogate wet nurse that you and the confused from the left advocate

    • dv 5.1

      So you would reject the SFC bail out, the 30mill to comalco etc

    • One Anonymous Bloke 5.2

      Lying about your own beliefs and mine. If you had an inkling of personal responsibility you’d know how to form an argument that doesn’t rely on Mr. Strawman.

      • McFlock 5.2.1

        And somewhat hypocritically “tory” will refuse to take personal responsibility for being such a fucking moron.

        Tory will just blame us for failing to pretend they made the insightful coup de gras that, as the smartest guy in the room, they must have made…

    • vto 5.3

      ” I support personal responsibility rather than reliance on the State as a surrogate wet nurse that you and the confused from the left advocate”

      Like SCF bailout by the state of business and right wing investors

      Like government handouts to farmers for irrigation. Why can’t they stand on their own two feet like grown-ups? If their business cannot attract attention from private investment, then rather than by subsidised by the taxpayer it should be allowed to fail.

      Like Rio Tinto getting state welfare in Invercargill.

      Like the stock exchange even. That great bastion of personal responsibility – ha ha ha ha. Recall one of the reasons for floating SOE’s was to support the failing private stock exchange. Fucking useless pricks.

      Like welfare support for Hollywood and Peter Jackson. Unable to stand on their own two feet either.

      Like farmers penchant for all structures socialist – heard of Fonterra? or Ravensdown? Two of NZ’s largest cooperatives – know what cooperation means fulla?

      Doesn’t leave much in the world of private personally responsible right wing tory business does it.

      Wake up idiot.

    • tracey 5.4

      you undersdtand that those people you dont like are being sent back here, to live next door to you or your friends… just so long as you are clear.

      Oh and the children who have not committed offences and never lived in NZ?

      You support personal responsibility from the position of someone who has deluded themselves that everything they have today was down tot heir own hard graft and sheer brilliance…

      • One Anonymous Bloke 5.4.1

        Tory doesn’t support personal responsibility: all you have to do is read the lying comments he sprays around the place.

        Of course, even if he weren’t lying, right wing personal responsibility doesn’t exist. So that would make him a dupe.

        Which is it? Who cares?

    • KJT 5.5

      So you support Hide taking responsibility for the disaster that is the Auckland amalgamation, Bradford for our runaway power bills, Douglas for the increase in working poor since 1984, Key for the loss of nearly 900 million in dividends from power companies, Don Elder and the National party for Solid Energy etc, etc.

      Personal responsibility. LOL.

  6. Ben 6

    Latest Roy Morgan is out.

    “During October support for National rose 5.5% to 50% well ahead of a potential Labour/Greens alliance 40.5% (down 5.5%) according to the latest Roy Morgan New Zealand Poll. If a NZ Election were held now the latest NZ Roy Morgan Poll shows National would be easily re-elected.”

    Up and down like a …..’s trousers, but not surprising given Labour’s recent performance.

  7. reason 7

    So our ‘Tory’ troll does not believe in state education, our state health system or people being free and moving on with their lives once they have done their time and paid for their crimes ……………….

    He’s probably all for rich tax cheats though …………………….

    • maui 7.1

      The worst kind of bludger, when’s he going to pay back his education, health and policing costs.

      • Muttonbird 7.1.1

        The worst kind of bludger, when’s he going to pay back his education, health and policing costs.

        -maui

        He had an education?

        • KJT 7.1.1.1

          No wonder why he rejects socialism.

          His Teachers failed him!

          What happened to “personal responsibility”.

    • ianmac 10.1

      So true:
      “I think the general consensus is that it’s ironic that we have been able to vote on a flag change which is…”
      Trivial.
      “Well surface-level stuff, while something like this that’s really representing our country overseas has been kept secret for a long time. Do you think this sets a precedent for the way the New Zealand government will interact with the public in the future?”

      • weka 10.1.1

        smoke and mirrors. Let the population feel like they’ve been consulted. Meanwhile, over here, do evil as you can.

  8. ianmac 11

    The Key Team have found many ways to mislead and distort Demoracy.
    But Canadian Harper is even better/worse at it than Key!

    As Harper tries for a fourth term in office at the Canadian federal election next week, he is trailed by an extraordinarily long list of allegations. ……
    ….Some of these allegations have been proved. In the 11 years since he became leader of the country’s Conservatives, the party has been fined for breaking electoral rules, and various members of Team Harper have been caught misleading parliament, gagging civil servants, subverting parliamentary committees, gagging scientists, harassing the supreme court, gagging diplomats, lying to the public, concealing evidence of potential crime, spying on opponents, bullying and smearing. Harper personally has earned himself the rare rebuke of being found to be in contempt of his parliament…..
    … the Prime Minister’s Office (PMO), which has been described eloquently by the Globe and Mail as “a 90-person juggernaut of political strategists, ‘issues managers’ and party enforcers who exercise strict control over cabinet, the houses of parliament and the bureaucracy….”

    Sound familiar?
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/15/stephen-harper-master-manipulator

    • savenz 11.1

      But what about their opposition – do they stand by and wave the corruption through in Canada – while ineffectually complaining about it- and then agreeing with much of what the conservatives are doing anyway?

      That is the true trick of the right. To noble your competition by trickery and they don’t even comprehend you are doing it and then start to join in too (unsuccessfully).

      • ianmac 11.1.1

        Trickery and getting away with it.
        “….a bus full of aboriginal voters, who were very unlikely to vote Conservative, and who were misdirected by calls and ended up not voting at all. That riding – Nipissing-Timiskaming – went to the Conservatives with a majority of only 18.”
        And the source of the calls could not be found.

    • Enough 11.2

      At least some, of the Canadian media, appear to have their critical faculties intact, unlike their NZ counterparts.

    • Nigel Gregory 11.3

      I personally know many Harper supporters.
      He has fostered an air of fear in Canada for both financial and personal security. As many western governments do.
      It’s a disgrace.

      The Liberals are no better….another ultra “centrist” establishment party which these days signifies fear and violence.

  9. Sabine 12

    and booom

    https://theintercept.com/drone-papers

    so 90% who where killed by drone bombings were not target? Say it ain’t so.

    One can’t just make that shit up.

  10. Chooky 13

    Why did this happen?…was it an accident?…the other side of the story:

    ‘US forces in Afghanistan knew Kunduz site was hospital – report’

    https://www.rt.com/usa/318786-us-analysts-kunduz-hospital/

    …”The site, operated by Doctors Without Borders (Medecins Sans Frontieres, MSF), was attacked five times in the span of an hour by a C-130 gunship, despite repeated pleas by the MSF to US forces. MSF officials described repeated strafing runs against the main hospital building, which housed the emergency room and the intensive care unit. No surrounding buildings were hit, they say.”

    ( a question many have been asking themselves)

    ‘Did Obama Bomb Doctors Without Borders for Opposing TPP?’

    http://theantimedia.org/doctors-without-borders-bombing-tpp/

    …”Had the President of Nobel Peace Prize-winning Doctors Without Borders not warned us of the “imminent threat to global health” posed by the TPP, would these 22 doctors and patients have lost their lives early Saturday?…

    Doctors Without Borders Calls Airstrike a War Crime

    • savenz 13.1

      I don’t think it is to do with TPP, more that Obama has lost control of the military in Iraq, and the US military and private contractors and overseas troops are doing whatever they like, and Obama is reluctant to try to bring his own military and private contractors to account.

    • Clean_power 14.1

      Ouch! Not to worry: Jacinda to the rescue.

    • Nigel Gregory 14.2

      Wow….what the hell.

    • Ad 14.3

      Good dose of reality for the anti-TPPA activists here, and results I commented on and fully expected.

      National have recovered in October after Labour did them like a dinner in September.

      Labour need to forget TPPA entirely, get back to attacking weak Ministers, and back to issues that are both media-positive and resonant with actual citizens’ direct interests.

      Portfolios like:
      – Social Welfare
      – Employment
      – Corrections
      – Housing
      – Economic Development
      – Education

      And if the existing Labour shadow portfolios aren’t up to making good hits, then either support them with more staff, or reshuffle them.

  11. Matthew Hooton 15

    Great comments by Phil Goff on TPP. Some sanity seems to be returning within Labour.http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/73073182/labour-unlikely-to-breach-tppa-over-concerns–phil-goff

    • tracey 15.1

      which is why the Right are keen to promote him to Mayor of Auckland. You understand that when National (and its supporters) are praising Clark and Goff……

      sanity is not defined by who agrees with you Matthew.

    • ianmac 15.2

      I agree with what Phil said:
      “He denied Labour was “stuck in the dark ages” regarding the TPPA, and said the party had not yet decided whether it would support or oppose the deal.

      “I think the party is doing the right thing at the moment – until you read the fine print, you don’t sign the document.

      “We’ve had a briefing from Tim Groser and that was really helpful, but there are things that he couldn’t answer…and we’ve got to see the detail of it.”

  12. Anne 16

    Once in a blue moon I am moved to comment on one or other of the MSM news sites. The last time was a TV3 news/opinion piece about the axing of Campbell Live. My comment contained critical language concerning Julie Christie and Mark Weldon whom I saw as the principle protagonists in the demise of the show. Ever since I appear to have been barred from the TV3 comments section. I can’t even read them to see what other readers have to say. No problem reading comments elsewhere.

    What a pair of lily livered, pouting pratts. I’m happy to see TV3 is going down the gurgler with that pair in charge. Sometimes people do get what they deserve.

    • McFlock 17.1

      wake me when they don’t need a track

      • Brett Dale 17.1.1

        Skate parks are going to be developed and some theme are jumping aboard also.

        • McFlock 17.1.1.1

          actually, depending on power efficiencies it might be good in dedicated areas like warehouses. Ignoring the vertical storage issues, of course.

          Theme parks… maybe. Or they could just upscale an air hockey table, for less.

          But the thing about skate parks is that they’re largely created to try to get skateboarders out of public spaces, particularly because of the damage they can cause to benches etc. But skateboards are a valid (if dickish, and not just because one almost hit me today) form of transport outside of parks. And boards are relatively cheap, not requiring batteries or liquid nitrogen.

          So yeah, might be a fad for rich kids, but not for long and not widespread.

    • Das 18.1

      Very disappointing from Little.
      Labour members and supporters, as well as progressive voters, should take a leaf from the approach of Little and his entourage by flouting requests for donations and help.

    • Ad 18.2

      Trotter is such a Splitter.

      He’s stuck in 1984.

      We’re in 2015, and the Labour Party is not ever reverting to some prelapsarian Socialist form. (That question was asked in 2014, and the answer was resoundingly: NO).

  13. Puckish Rogue 19

    Well John Key he wanted to close the gap with Australia

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/australias-middle-class-no-longer-the-worlds-wealthiest-20151013-gk7pwa.html

    Another reason it’ll be three more years for John Key

  14. savenz 21

    US invaded Afghanistan and Iraq to bring in democracy, freedom of speech, human rights and because of 9/11. (Yeah right).

    Why are they attacking the wrong countries then?

    Mother of Saudi Teen Sentenced to Crucifixion Urges Obama: ‘Rescue My Son’
    Ali Mohammed al-Nimr was sentenced to death at the age of 17 after taking part in a rally for equal Shia rights in Saudi Arabia

    http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/10/14/mother-saudi-teen-sentenced-crucifixion-urges-obama-rescue-my-son?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork

  15. millsy 22

    Does Ad support privatisation or is it just me?

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