Open mike 17/04/2024

30 comments on “Open mike 17/04/2024 ”

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1. Descendant Of Smith 1

   17 April 2024 at 8:48 am

   I se Richard Harmon pumping up the holiday highway.

   I'm not convinced by the arguments of benefits. All it seems to me that would happen is Auckland businesses would have easier direct access to the Northland markets and further drive local businesses under. Businesses are hardly going to lift up and move their manufacturing to Northland especially now they can get their goods there more quickly. Especially as the whole article points out the poverty and lack of skills and educational achievement – let alone an aging workforce. Their biggest markets will remain Auckland which is where they are close to.

   At the same time I can see house prices in Northland rising as they continue to but holiday homes and price locals out of the market.

   Seen this happen for years in the US where whole towns have disappeared.

   Turning what Labour called the “holiday highway” into a four-lane expressway from Auckland to Whangarei could bring at least an economic benefit of nearly two billion a year for Northland each year. And it could help bring an end to poverty in one of New Zealand’s most deprived regions. The New Zealand Institute of Economic Research (NZIER) has produced a study of the impact of an expressway for a consortium of Northland businesses. Its says a four lane road could boost GDP in the north by up to $2 billion a year.

   “Long travel times and delays cause businesses to accumulate larger inventories and reconfigure their operations. “Poor connectivity also makes it harder to form networks with customers and suppliers. “Uncertainty about closures and poor access holds back investment, constraining economic growth.”

   https://www.politik.co.nz/fighting-poverty-on-the-holiday-highway/

   This is not an unknown.

   Wider local impacts could be negative. The 1999 SACTRA report “Transport and the Economy” (Standing Advisory Committee on Trunk Road Assessment, 1999) recognised that road projects can have complicated spatial impacts and that the result in some areas may be the opposite of intensions. Improved accessibility between two regions may benefit prosperous areas rather than the poor areas targeted by the scheme. Thus, focusing on nation-level results, such as CBA results, may mask undesirable local impacts. This is often referred to as the two-way road effect.

   Empirical evidence of the two-way road effect remains limited. In a study of the impact of the M25 around London, Linneker and Spence (1996) showed that there may be a negative relationship between accessibility and employment change. The authors suggested that improved accessibility may have two types of impacts: it may enable local firms to expand their markets, and potentially increase employment; it may facilitate expansion in the reverse direction, as stronger external firms may penetrate the area with improved accessibility.

   https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0967070X21003334

   And of course history tells us of the influence of the auto manufacturing car lobby.

   The roots of the interstate system go back to the 1930s, when General Motors, AAA, and other industry groups formed the National Highway Users Conference to influence federal transportation policy.

   These groups realized the nation's transportation system needed to be reframed entirely — as a public responsibility. After all, most cities had just ripped up their streetcar networks because they were privately owned systems that weren't making money. The auto industry didn't want the same thing to happen to highways. So "there was a really successful effort by people with a stake in the automotive industry to characterize road-building as a public responsibility," says Peter Norton, a historian at the University of Virginia and author of Fighting Traffic: The Dawn of the Motor Age in the American City.

   The first step was changing how roads were funded. In the 1930s, there were already privately owned toll roads in the East, and some public toll highways, like the Pennsylvania Turnpike, were under construction. But auto groups recognized that funding public roads through taxes on gasoline would allow highways to expand much more quickly.

   They also decided to call these roads "free roads," a term that was later replaced by "freeways." Norton argues that this naming shift was essential in persuading the federal government — and the public — to shift away from tolls. "It started with calling the roads drivers pay for 'toll roads,' and calling the ones that taxpayers pay for 'free roads,'" he says. "Of course, there's no such thing as a free road."

   https://www.vox.com/2015/5/14/8605917/highways-interstate-cities-history
   • Bearded Git 1.1

     17 April 2024 at 9:12 am

     Almost all of those "Points of Order" articles (and all of those from Harmon) seem to support right-leaning policies.

     It's a bit odd that The Standard promotes them-is there some money involved or is TS simply being open-minded?
     • Michael P 1.1.1

       17 April 2024 at 8:00 pm

       One of the best ways to understand (understand includes a number of different things such as motivations, goals, etc) a political opponent is to listen to them (listen could include reading, watching, etc)

       You stand a much better chance of defeating them or even winning them over if you understand them.
     • weka 1.1.2

       17 April 2024 at 8:06 pm

       there's no money involved. From memory Lynn thought there were some useful perspectives on the blog.
       • Bearded Git 1.1.2.1

         18 April 2024 at 10:54 am

         Thank you Weka.
   • Stephen D 1.2

     17 April 2024 at 9:18 am

     I thought Ike had the freeway network built to assist the movement of troops.
     • Descendant Of Smith 1.2.1

       17 April 2024 at 5:51 pm

       Freeways existed well before the interstate. The interstate was in part about ensuring citizens had a path to escape nuclear bombs.
2. Ad 2

   17 April 2024 at 9:01 am

   Impressive to see Shane Jones extolling the virtues of accelerated coal mining consents in order to pay for climate change effects.
   • William 2.1

     17 April 2024 at 9:47 am

     My immediate thought on hearing that

     "It became necessary to destroy the town to save it."
   • Sanctuary 2.2

     17 April 2024 at 10:03 am

     That bloviating ass thinks being a pompous blowhard makes for a superior argument by virtue of self-pleasuring yourself with worthless excessive verbiage.
     • Phillip ure 2.2.1

       17 April 2024 at 11:57 am

       That is a very tidy description of s. Jones..(it could almost fit on a t-shirt..)

       And of course it could have life as a pub quiz question..

       Just change the opening 'that'..to 'which'..
   • bwaghorn 2.3

     17 April 2024 at 12:16 pm

     Guys just trolling nz now,
     • Robert Guyton 2.3.1

       17 April 2024 at 12:21 pm

       Bottom trawling.
       Still in moderation: why??
       Unfair.
       • Shanreagh 2.3.1.1

         17 April 2024 at 7:12 pm

         If your posts are coming through, albeit it may be a bit later to allow for 'inspection', it is a little OTT to say that you are being affected by being 'in moderation' otherwise we would not have seen this post I am replying to.

         As someone who had the same experience there is a path you can go down and that is called acceptance or the price we may all have to pay at some stage of being able to have this 'place'. I cherish the moderation even though I have been affected by it, perhaps with reason!
3. Hunter Thompson II 3

   17 April 2024 at 9:17 am

   Friday 19 April is the last day for making a submission on the Fast-track Approvals Bill, now before Parliament.

   The Environmental Defence Society has stated in its submission:

   “What is clear from the Bill is that it’s a fake premise, purporting to speed up decision-making when its real purpose is to enable environmental harm with impunity.

   “Ministers will have unprecedented powers to approve pet projects. The public will be precluded from having any say. Development is given absolute priority in an astonishingly unbalanced set of decision-making criteria." "It is not an exaggeration to say that the legislation lacks legitimacy and is truly an exercise of unbridled power by Ministers."

   Make your voice heard (unless you don't mind our environment being trashed at a much faster rate than it is at present).See https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/sc/how-to-make-a-submission/
   • Tabletennis 3.1

     17 April 2024 at 11:24 am

     "Friday 19 April is the last day for making a submission on the Fast-track Approvals Bill, now before Parliament."

     alternative you could sign a Forest & Bird quick Submission Form:
     https://www.forestandbird.org.nz/petitions/fight-for-nature

     I suspect they will completely ignore them, but we will have a record as to how many support or not support NZ drifting into a dictatorship, as the 3 minister giving themselves complete executive power and excluding any input from ppl., outside those with a direct interest, either locally or from outside NZ.
     • Michael P 3.1.1

       17 April 2024 at 8:11 pm

       "…NZ drifting into a dictatorship…"

       Really….A dictatorship…?

       You know we have free elections every 3 years right?

       Sorry but the left in my opinion needs to stop using these sorts of terms to describe democratically elected governments. Many voters see or hear such descriptions and simply don't bother engaging with the actual argument if there is one.(IMO)
       • Descendant Of Smith 3.1.1.1

         17 April 2024 at 8:33 pm

         Yet they happily engage with the right stating the left are communists, etc. Though that may be due to one person and one person only.

         https://www.auckland.ac.nz/en/news/2023/01/24/data-shines-a-light-on-the-online-hatred-for-jacinda-ardern.html

         In doing so we hoped to be able to identify potentially important differences between posting about politicians from different positions on the political spectrum and of different genders.

         What we found was that the Prime Minister faced online vitriol at a rate between 50 and 90 times higher than any other high-profile figure.

         While the other individuals were each mentioned in between 200 and 400 posts over the study period, the Prime Minister was mentioned in over 18,000 posts. This was 92 percent of the total body of posts mentioning any of these individuals.

         Of the posts our natural language tools classify as strongly negative, angry, sexually explicit or toxic, those mentioning the PM made up 93 percent of the total – 5438 posts were particularly abusive in this way.

         The other individuals referenced each had fewer than 100 such angry or threatening posts directed at them.
4. Phillip ure 4

   17 April 2024 at 9:40 am

   Re upcoming direct action:

   I have realised why there are no mass protests..as yet..

   I think everyone is kinda shell-shocked at the moment…

   ..as this government mounts war on the poor ..as they wholesale dismantle the support mechanisms that ..decades of neoliberal incrementalism …of both major parties bending the knee to the elites..what this has brought us to…

   But at the moment there is no issue that opposition can focus on ..

   It's kinda whack-a-mole..

   ..it is swiping at smoke..

   But I reckon any hint of digging coal/whatever out of protected land..that this will focus minds/actions..

   ..and that sucker..and any other sucker of that ilk….will be closed down..
   • Kay 4.1

     17 April 2024 at 9:58 am

     Philip, I will also propose that it's extremely difficult, even dangerous for the poor (both working and not working) to engage in protest of any sort under a right-wing government in the country, because there is the potential for very real negative consequences from both the State (benefits) and employers (low paid/casual workers) who oppose the regime. It's quite deliberate. Personally, since the election I am now incredibly cautious about which petitions I now sign. It's safer to stay below the radar.
     • Ad 4.1.1

       17 April 2024 at 11:19 am

       Yes I've restricted both my comments and what I comment on for that reason.

       The right hunt you down.
       • adam 4.1.1.1

         17 April 2024 at 3:25 pm

         A spine is a wonderful thing, its worth having one.
         • Phillip ure 4.1.1.1.1

           17 April 2024 at 3:40 pm

           Heh..!…aye..!
     • Anne 4.1.2

       17 April 2024 at 5:28 pm

       It goes back decades Kay and wasn't confined to beneficiaries and low paid/casual workers. Individuals were also preyed upon. Especially if you were a member of the Labour Party and dared to express anti-nuclear sentiments and didn't join the 'Down with the Unions' movement.

       If you were also a public servant then your career prospects were non-existent and work place atmospheres could be very unpleasant.

       The Right has always acted this way. But with modern technology at their finger tips they can do so much more and get away with it.
   • Bearded Git 4.2

     17 April 2024 at 10:31 am

     Agreed Phillip….but it is also a war on the environment and climate change measures.

     As with the poor, the government has proposed so many terrible policies that are anti-environment (Brown's $9 billion Wellington car tunnel is the latest and perhaps the worst-it is laughable) that it is hard to know where to start with protests.
   • Michael P 4.3

     17 April 2024 at 8:18 pm

     "But at the moment there is no issue that opposition can focus on .."

     They (for me that means Labour) should be focusing on figuring out why their support disintegrated and what they need to do to at least make it a decent contest in 3 years time.

     Focusing on an issue such opposing all coal mining will play right into the governments hands. Many here might think otherwise or vehemently disagree, which would mean they are not representative of or don't really understand those for whom the Labour party was created. (The working class)
5. Kay 5

   17 April 2024 at 9:51 am

   For all the damage done by the UK Tories, one thing (some of them) actually got right for the good of ALL, not just their donors. And our brand new government even gets a shout out for repealing the smokefree proposals before they had a chance to take effect. Interesting to see the familiarity of the lines of opposition being thrown about.

   https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/16/house-of-commons-votes-in-favour-of-smoking-ban-despite-opposition-from-dozens-of-tories
6. tWig 6

   17 April 2024 at 1:04 pm

   Debunking conspiracies aotearoa Facebook page (weds 17 April 2024 12.25) has a short summary and links to petitions regarding the newly-named govt Fast-Track advisory panel.

   "the government announced the advisory panel on the Fast-Track proposal applications. The panel consists of just six people with no experience or background in environmental issues. Even if these people decide that our environment and safety come first, the ultimate decision comes down to just three MPs, all with vested interests in destructive industries. There will be no public say over what happens to our environment, even if it directly impacts you and your community."
7. adam 7

   17 April 2024 at 3:44 pm

   Kiwis know this a crap economic model to run a country with.

   Good poll from Horizon "Most major markets seen as uncompetitive"

   https://horizonpoll.co.nz/page/701/most-major-

   Shows how fubar the results of a "free" market.
   • Michael P 7.1

     17 April 2024 at 8:32 pm

     Hardly surprising really. Like some drug lord somewhere once said, "competition is bad for business." (Unless you're trying to remove a 'competitor' from a market altogether by offering much cheaper prices for long enough that they go out of business)

     Banking, Supermarkets, fuel providers, etc don't compete with each other on prices to such an extent that they are pretty much cartels.

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