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Open mike 17/07/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 17th, 2021 - 81 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

81 comments on “Open mike 17/07/2021 ”

  1. Dennis Frank 1

    Edited highlights from The Surge: wheeler/dealer Bernie @ #1

    "Sanders reached a deal with Budget Committee moderates on a $3.5 trillion framework for a party-line reconciliation bill they intend to pass this fall. It would create a host of climate initiatives that Democrats claim would meet the president’s goal of halving emissions by 2030; add dental, vision, and hearing aid benefits to Medicare; extend the generously expanded child tax credit and improvements Democrats made to the Affordable Care Act earlier this year; allow Medicare to negotiate drug prices; and fund universal pre-K and paid family and medical leave. “The legislation that the president and I are supporting will go further to improve the lives of working people than any legislation since the 1930s,” Sanders told reporters once the deal was reached." https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/07/the-surge-bernie-sanders-budget-infrastructure-manchin-schumer.html

    Legal weed @ #5: "Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, along with Sens. Ron Wyden and Cory Booker, introduced the first draft of their bill, the Cannabis Administration and Opportunity Act, to remove marijuana from the federal list of controlled substances. President Joe Biden, meanwhile, is extremely weirdly still not in favor of marijuana legalization."

    Stroppy servant @ #7: "Gen. Mark Milley, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, got into it with congressional Republicans when he defended studying “white rage” and took offense at accusations over the military going “woke.” Conservatives like Tucker Carlson and Matt Gaetz, both privileged brats, called him “stupid,” a “pig,” and the reason why we lose so many wars. Milley is now likely in for another round of prep school Republicans calling him a wussy war-losing scumbag, as a new book documents some of the insults Milley lobbed Trump’s way when he was actively trying to prevent Trump from launching a coup. In a statement Thursday, Trump—who says he only picked Milley because Jim Mattis didn’t like Milley, and Trump didn’t like Jim Mattis—kicked things off by saying that “if I was going to do a coup, one of the last people I would want to do it with is General Mark Milley.” So there!"

  2. bwaghorn 2

    While most of the farmers out yesterday were just sheep who probably didn't even really know why they were protesting, government needs to remember that its up to them to ease the pain of their policies, what's gone on down in otago and Canterbury (which is the main target of many of the policies) was all done legally in most cases and aided and abetted government national and local.

    • pat 2.1

      Youre right about local government support in the provinces, though public support will be far more divided (and opposition largely silent)…and its not surprising as in most cases the Ag sector is the main source of both revenue and employment in theses areas….and the method of protest was far from popular if what I hear being expressed is anything to go by.

  3. Sabine 3

    and buried in 'Lifestyle' – funny and fitting imo – a write up on the casualness on which cis gendered girls experience sexual violence at the hand of their male peers and older male.

    Girls, its called a rite of passage. I am waiting on the Minister for Women to have a say on that, and to do something about the 'right to a safe space and environment in which to grow up for human beings with natural vaginas. I am however not holding my breath, cause i'd be dead before anyone in any government really gives a flying fudge.


    Of the 724 students who responded (aged 12 to 18), 60 per cent said they had been sexually harassed, many of them multiple times — out on the street, around town, at social gatherings or online. In most cases, their harassers were teenage boys of a similar age, or older men.

    The impact of even what might be considered low-level harassment was often distressing. Relentless cat-calls and sexual comments had led some students to change their route to and from school, or to avoid travelling by bus altogether. Some of the verbal abuse that was reported, including rape threats, was truly vile. A girl on her way home from school says she attracted a volley of abuse when she walked past a group of teenage boys, with one of them shouting, "I'll f*** you until your back breaks."

    Other students told of being groped, followed, filmed without permission or sent unwanted "dick pics". One was offered money to allow herself to be touched. Several of the reported rapes involved multiple offenders taking turns with a girl who'd had too much to drink or been subdued with drugs. More than once, a supposedly supportive boyfriend had helped her into a bedroom to lie down, then brought in his mates.

    • Pete 3.1

      I'll deem you Minister for Women for the day. What would you do? Real solutions.

      (Not real solutions are the seeming National style solution for gangs, to wit: "Gangs do bad things, put all gang members in jail." So with girls being assaulted, "Males do bad things, lock up all teenage and adult males."

      • Molly 3.1.1

        For a start, it might help to acknowledge there is a problem, instead of indulging in whataboutism.

      • Sabine 3.1.2
        • make rape and sexual assault part of the hate crime bill.

        – Min. sentencing 3 years plus 50.000 in damages.

        – Advertise that in Schools, specifically boys school. Send police to boys schools and tell them what happens if you rape anyone (as boys also get raped).

        Anyone cought raping anyone should get at least that for every charge of rape.

        So this guy here who assaulted three women during a Navy trip should get at the minimum 3 years for each instance, plus 50.000 to each victim. No parole, no early release, madatory listing on sexual offenders list, no name suppression. – but he got two years. Cause boys will be boys. Right?


        How bout that? Would that work for you?

        And what would you do?

        Apologize for boys being boys? https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/89110814/willie-jackson-embroiled-in-roast-busters-controversey-just-hours-after-joining-labour-party

        Like some people did for the Roast busters?

        Cause clearly girls should know that when they are out and about, trying to live their life that they will inspire men and boys (and some women, althought no women ever told me to smile, never told me to get a breast augmention surgery lest i be considered a boy, or told that my ass is fuckable, nor has ever any women with a vagina raped me, that was always done by weaponsied penises).

        So now Pete , that i told you what i would do, what would you do to keep girls as young as 13 save from having a train run over them organised by their supposed 'boyfriends'.

        And please remember that the Roastbusters were not even charged with 'supplying alcohol to minors'. They went scot free, and the girls get to pick up what ever is left of them and continue on. Mind i guess they are not Rainbow Youth, so sucks to be a person with a natural vagina.

        And do feel free to tell me just how unfair it is that Girls stand up for themselves and demand to not be reduced to a piece of meat by their peers and older male.

        • Rosemary McDonald

          Tbh, Sabine I had no real inkling that this shit had got so bad for our young women. I was reading that article very early this morning and thinking we really need to get boys off the fucking porn sites and into some sound and solid consciousness-raising and mindfulness. They also need to learn that women do not exist for their use and entertainment. That women and girls are actually human.

          "We're so desensitised to it, and so are the guys. They don't see themselves as 'offenders' whose behaviour is hurting or breaking someone. Men are trained not to respect women. And if you challenge it, they're the ones who feel they've been targeted unfairly."

          This has gone way beyond a rank sense of entitlement…and we in the west have the audacity to challenge third world countries on the way they treat women and girls.

        • Pete

          Thank you. In the cause of robust debate:

          Should we start lessons in the earliest classes in schools, or preschools, telling boys what will happen to them if they treat other people badly? Should we have exemplar lists of what constitutes that unacceptable behaviour?

          • Sabine

            Why don't you answer me this? Do YOU think that girls and women should have a right to NOT be assaulted, insulted and raped by THEIR MALE peers? or is that just boys being boys and rape is a rite of passage for men to commit and for women/girls to suffer through?


            • Pete

              A couple of times lately I have been questioned on NOT putting stuff as if something not being there means I accept it or approve of it. As if I have to preface everything I say with a pepeha which includes everything I believe in, anything not being there implying I don't care.

              Like an implication that because I didn't lambaste mongrels who assault other people I might think that it's okay for girls and women to be assaulted, insulted and raped by male peers? Or thinking that rape is a reasonable rite of passage for men to commit and for women/girls to suffer through.

              I'm going to a public occasion this afternoon. If someone doesn't tell me directly that they think that girls and women should have a right to NOT be assaulted, insulted and raped by THEIR MALE peers and that just boys being boys and rape is a rite of passage for men to commit and for women/girls to suffer through, do I assume the worst about them and their attitudes?

              • Sabine

                i don't know what you believe, you could answer me my question. Something like, Yes, i believe that, would suffice actually.

                But let me tell you…….that

                I do believe that women and girls SHOULD have that right, and i am waiting with baited breath for the Minister of Women to state something to that extend, because this is just ONE school, and we can expect this to happen pretty much anywhere in the country.

              • Molly

                "I'm going to a public occasion this afternoon. If someone doesn't tell me directly that they think that girls and women should have a right to NOT be assaulted, insulted and raped by THEIR MALE peers and that just boys being boys and rape is a rite of passage for men to commit and for women/girls to suffer through, do I assume the worst about them and their attitudes?"

                You are commenting around the topic of sexual harassment as reported by the Christchurch school girls, without actually addressing the impact this harassment has on not only their lives, but the lives of those conducting that harassment (and those around them) if it is not addressed.

                Listen to what Sabine is saying, instead of getting all #NotAllMen.

                Because the reality is, most women have experienced what is reported to varying degrees of harm.

                So, there is a better approach than just pretending there is nothing to address, such as you seem to be doing.

                It is necessary for us ALL to address it, as opposed to only those who are participating in harmful behaviour, unless you honestly believe that it is not worth finding a solution for.

                (BTW, lessons are learned in cultures and societies, not just schools. The answer does not rely on educational institutions solely, we collectively carry that responsibility.)

                • Pete

                  Surely you're not telling me what I should be addressing?

                  And if I haven't addressed what you think I should be addressing I'm pretending there is nothing to address?

                  Not worth finding a solution for? I asked about specific responses. Sabine has suggested punishment and advertising. You say, "The answer does not rely on educational institutions solely, we collectively carry that responsibility" without saying what can specifically be done.

                  It's all right saying there is a massive problem, it's obvious there is. Thing is, what specifically should be done about it?

                  • Molly

                    “Surely you’re not telling me what I should be addressing?”
                    God forbid. Just all those who are concerned about the current environment of harm. Else the involvement of those not caring, gets in the way of discussion and possible solutions by redirecting into dead ends of discussion.

                    "It's all right saying there is a massive problem, it's obvious there is. Thing is, what specifically should be done about it?"

                    Well, it was not apparent that you thought this from your previous comments on this thread.

                    Instead of asking others for solutions, or providing facile tongue-in-cheek proposals, – do you have any real solutions to propose? I'll wait.

                    • Pete

                      Your comment again suggests that because I didn't condemn scummy attacks on women there was an inference I somehow didn't mind such.

                      I ask for answers when I see complaints with implications that "something should be done" with no suggestion of what that could be.

      • Gabby 3.1.3

        Prosecuting some of the pricks would be a start. Barring the 'what were you wearing' defence would be helpful.

        • McFlock

          And something about consent having to be proved. Along the lines of the accused having to demonstrated reasonable grounds for believing each act (which would take in removing condoms) was desired by the other party.

  4. Anker 4
    • 👍Sabine
  5. Adrian Thornton 5

    Flogging a Dead Horse #1…

    Seems like debunked Guardian hack Luck Harding is still not yet ready to abandon his wet dream fantasy that Russia helped Trump into the Whitehouse in 2016, a narrative that most thinking humans have now accepted was some sort of smoke screen to protect Clinton and the establishment Dems from taking any kind of responsibility for their embarrassing defeat during that election..a narrative now only mentioned in polite company by hardcore fantasists (like Harding and enabled by The Guardian)…..

    Kremlin papers appear to show Putin’s plot to put Trump in White House


    RUSSIAGATE: Luke Harding’s Hard Sell


    • Morrissey 5.1

      debunked Guardian hack Luck Harding

      As in "bad luck", I suppose, Adrian? Or, in his case, rotten luck.

      I don't know how that sniveling drip has the hide to show himself after his toe-curlingly embarrassing exposure at the hands of Aaron Maté…

  6. Muttonbird 6

    The headline warns the Prime Minister to, "dismiss protesting farmers as rednecks at (her) peril."

    I could not find any reference to where the PM had done such a thing. Would anyone with a Hurled subscription be able to tell us where the PM said or implied 'protesting farmers are rednecks'?


  7. Rosemary McDonald 7

    This headline tells it as it is…Bribery, filth and 'scumlords'…

    Appalling conditions compounded by weak legislation with the usual crap enforcement.

    The obvious scumlords…and they're easily identified…should have their slums confiscated by the Crown with zero compensation.

    FFS…make the punishment fit the crime.

    • KSaysHi 7.1

      Harris says he saw some tenants living in “absolutely awful conditions”.

      ''There are some landlords who are just 100 per cent scumlords, and they should never ever be allowed to own property to rent out.''

      Harris' firm, TradeTech, has inspected and assessed 3756 Christchurch homes over the last 18 months. A small percentage of landlords went to extraordinary lengths to avoid fixing their poor quality rentals, he says.

      ''We have been asked to pass houses without seeing them and been offered money to do so.

      ‘’Owners are trying to tape insulation around the manhole or scatter [pink] batts around, so it looks like it has been done, or they put new lino over holes in the floor. For draught-stopping, rather than fix windows, some just nail them shut.''

      I'd really like to see inspectors have the ability to force sales of rental properties and a ban from being associated in any way (including as a property manager or investor) with residential tenancies. Don't think a licence to landlord is worth anything imho cause scum LL's need more than some certificate of completion. They need repercussions, and serious ones at that. God knows the rest of us are paying via the health and welfare systems for their shoddy treatment of tenants.

    • Treetop 7.2

      FFS…make the punishment fit the crime.

      I suggest that the landlord needs to put the tenant up in a motel until the repairs or legal installation is carried out or not be paid rent until the work is carried out.


      That the landlord needs to live in the rental if the work is not carried out and pay for a motel for the tenants.

  8. Fireblade 8

    My elderly parents had their first Pfizer vaccine yesterday, no side effects yet. I'm in Group 3 due to a health condition and have booked my first vaccine for this Thursday. My sister in-law works at Waikato Hospital and is fully vaccinated, as is my brother. All good.

    • Matiri 8.1

      Smooth sailing for us too, both Group 3, both fully vaccinated, only side effect was slightly sore arms at injection site.

      • Anne 8.1.1

        Sore arms and tiredness seem to be the most common side effects. Had my first dose on Thursday and that night the jab site was quite painful. By morning it had receded to a mild irritation. Been feeling a bit tired but don't know if it is due to injection.

        Whatever: for anyone feeling a bit unsure of the jab… the side effects are minor and only last a day or so.

  9. weka 9

    I'm wanting feedback from people who use a mobile phone to comment on TS.

    1. are you using the Mobile or Desktop version on your phone?
    2. what model of phone and what OS version?
    3. what problems do you experience posting comments?

    Trying to gauge how many people are having problems and the nature of the problems. Details is good. Cheers.

    • Fireblade 9.1

      Always use my OPPO A53s, ColorOS 7.2 with Android 10. Chrome browser with Adgurd private dns.

      I use the Mobile version of The Standard, but the Desktop version also currently works. No issues with functionality at the moment, but I don't comment very often.

    • Forget now 9.2

      Okay, I think I have worked it out now. You have to use the link button (looks like a chain link with a diagonal dash above the bullet point buttons), rather than just pasting the link into the text body. No idea what the flag or 3 horizontal lines buttons mean.

      Conversely, I found the scaling didn't work at all with image button, but copy-pasting did on laptop.

      At least the link from NRT seems to be working again – that's been out for months.

      • weka 9.2.1

        no idea what all that means because you didn't say what you are referring to.

        If you want to link into a comment from a mobile phone, click in the URL of the browser, and cut and paste from there (just like in a computer).

    • bwaghorn 9.3

      I use an android Samsung x4 I prefer desktop but have to switch to mobile to comment most of the time.

      • weka 9.3.1

        Same on an iphone iOS 14.6

        I like desktop because of the Replies list, and the aesthetics, but can't comment from there so am continually switching back and forth between mobile and desktop.

    • gsays 9.4

      Currently on an HP laptop with windows 7, chrome or firefox and no probs.

      Otherwise an Oppo bat fone. I use the mobile version as the desktop doesn't show any replies. More to do with my end I would imagine…

    • Craig H 9.5

      I have a Samsung Galaxy Note 9 and use mobile Chrome version 91.0.4472.120 (the latest version for my phone). I can post using mobile view but not desktop view. I also have mobile Firefox version 90.1.1 (Build #2015820747), also the latest version, and report the same thing. I also have Samsung Internet (Samsung's mobile browser based on Chrome) version (the latest version), and it didn't load this page beyond the title. When checking on my Samsung Tab S5E (tablet), Samsung Internet allows posting in mobile but not desktop.

      By post, I mean that when I press the reply button on the page, I can type in the comments editor in mobile view, but not desktop view.

  10. Molly 10

    For all the talk about high-density housing, and its importance in addressing the failure of decades of NZ planning, the reality is that good transitional housing requires great design and location and considerations. Despite the accumulated capital gains that has delighted some of the property owners across the country from land-use changes to high-density, this delight does not necessarily result in a change from existing building designs, or better living experiences for those who end up residing in resulting houses.

    As far as Auckland Council is involved past the zoning change, their ability to influence resulting builds has been hampered by their failure to connect the Auckland Design Manual to the Unitary Plan, and developers are businesses who develop to increase their profit margins, not to provide long-term homes that take into account affordability, long-term residents well-being and transition considerations over and above the current inadequate regulatory requirements. This is not a treatise against property developers, just a statement of fact.

    Given the current cost of emergency housing at $1million a day, and the more accepted cost of Accommodation Supplement at $30 million a week it is apparent to more than a few of us that current mechanisms to address housing, including Kiwibuild are treating housing as a commodity rather than a human need, and despite all protestations to the contrary are propping up an overheated market. Of course, politically, the cost of depressing house prices are not to be considered, even though many NZers are paying the price of the economic benefit enjoyed by a few that have the ability to financially invest and benefit from this commodification of a human need.

    I am one of those that firmly believe the solution to actually access to healthy housing to all NZers, requires a dedicated commitment to vast amounts of state housing, where tenure is stabilised and the building of state housing must consider the wellbeing of residents and connection to community AS WELL AS utilising the investment of government and the judicious use of resources and design to transition these dwellings in terms of climate change. Once all NZers have access to affordable, secure, fit-for-purpose housing as can be provided by the state, then the developers and housing investors can continue with their business model without interference. We should not expect businesses to provide the necessities of living if the government shows little interest in the same. Once again, I believe this disinterest is a result of a lack of political will, the voters that they care about are those that are benefitting from rising housing costs, or are appeased by policies that seem to allow them to get on the property ladder (Kiwibuild).

    As at 31 March 2021, the number of those on the State Housing list was 23,688. There has been a marked increase, after a Covid year, but the fact is that this is the number of people awaiting state housing after meeting all requirements.

    The Kainga Ora December 2020 Report states that in the previous three years they have built 3500 state houses (without specifying whether this provides 3500 houses in addition to existing available housing stock, or does not include the demolition of previous state houses. This is an important distinction. If the net gain of state houses is minimal, or not meeting demand, NZ will continue to fail to address the inequity that results in many households because of the high cost of a fundamental need.

    Apparently, the current government declined to invest in speeding up the glacially slow process of providing state housing, and looking in detail at current project gives a strong impression of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. From their current state housing builds, that is reported on Page 34:

    Northcote The Northcote Development replaces about 300 existing state houses with approximately 1,500 new homes, including approximately 470 new state houses, 580 KiwiBuild/affordable homes and the rest as market houses … (Net increase in state homes -170)

    Mount Roskill The Mount Roskill Development will deliver approximately 11,000 new high-quality, healthy homes over the next 20 years. The new development will be comprised of approximately 4,400 state homes, 3,300 KiwiBuild/affordable homes and 3,300 market homes. These replace 2,732 existing state houses that have an average age of 48 years. … (Net increase in state homes -1,668 in 20 years)

    Māngere The Māngere Development will deliver approximately 10,000 new warm, dry, healthy homes over 20 to 25 years, including around 5,000 state homes, 2,500 KiwiBuild/affordable homes and 2,500 market homes replacing 2,700 existing state houses…((Net increase in state homes -7,300 in 20-25 years)

    Delivery is underway in the Māngere West neighbourhood where over 900 homes will be built, of which 342 will be state homes. … The Tāmaki development will deliver around 10,500 new homes over the next 25 years. The development will be comprised of approximately 3,500 state homes, 3,500 affordable homes (including KiwiBuild) and 3,500 market homes replacing 2,800 existing state dwellings. … (Net increase in state homes -700 in 25 years)

    North West Glen Innes will deliver more than 1,200 homes, has also commenced. Oranga The Oranga Development replaces around 400 state houses with over 1,100 new homes, including 440 new state homes, over eight years…. (Net increase in state homes -700 in eight years)

    Te Kauwhata In June this year, we also entered into a land supply partnership agreement with Winton to deliver 1,300 homes over the next seven to eight years at its greenfield Lakeside development at Te Kauwhata, North Waikato. Kāinga Ora is engaging build partners to construct a wide range of housing choices in a fully consented master-planned community, located in a strategic Southern Corridor location…

    In the introduction Kainga Ora states:

    Over the next four years, Kāinga Ora plans to invest $11.2 billion in its housing stock, resulting in a net increase of approximately 8,250 additional state homes.

    If Kainga Ora was purely investing in state houses, that would be a build price per household unit of $1.3 million. However, they are both providing state housing AND contributing/relying on housing inflation by also providing houses for market and Kiwibuild. I believe there is a disconnect going on here, that is enshrined in the current interpretation of their objective:

    Our objective is to contribute to sustainable, inclusive, and thriving communities that provide people with good quality, affordable housing choices that meet diverse needs; support good access to jobs, amenities, and services; and otherwise sustain or enhance the overall economic, social, environmental, and cultural well-being of current and future generations.

    The belief that the market is working as it should, allows them to participate in being property developers themselves, and also working in PPP with other developers in order to create a profit.

    However, they could, if politically supported do better. Their request to increase the rate of state housing builds was denied by the current Labour government. But they do have the ability to identify development opportunities that exist within their Crown Entity roles.

    For a thought experiment, could they look at purchasing Ellerslie racecourse? Six hectares in a location well positioned for walkable community and transport, and if developed with good design by Kainga Ora might provide more household units for state housing than they currently have planned to meet demand.

    There is high-density housing, and there is well-designed high density housing. I don't think we are currently doing well at the second.

    Kainga Ora could be investing in developments like 8 House in Copenhagen on approx 2-2.5 hectares, which was conceived in 2006 and delivered around 2010.

    The cost of €92,000,000 provided 61,000 sqm of building, including 10,000 retail/commercial space, 500 sqm of community space and 476 household units (of which over 300 are unique in design). 1700 sqm of green roof. All household units have access to outside space – balcony or front garden, and many have dual aspect windows. There is also a 1 km walkway ramp that connects all residents to each other, and to the open courtyards.

    It is worth taking a look at the other projects that BIG studio has been involved in. I investigated their work after my son expressed interest in the Lego House which was one of their projects. I have also read a couple of interviews with developers that are using the architectural studio because their innovative design reduces build costs on multi-story developments.

    You can see how they developed the design concept in a short video on Vimeo, but more importantly, you can also see how residents experience living in such as development – regarded as a village in the sky:

  11. Andre 11

    I'm not really wanting to start another round of the ivermectin shitfight. But following on the heels of the discrediting and withdrawal of the egyptian study that ivermectin boosters heavily relied on, a new study has just been published where those running the study have taken reasonable care around controls, randomisation etc, and found that ivermectin did not have any benefit.


    primary source: https://bmcinfectdis.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12879-021-06348-5

    • RedLogix 11.1

      Try reading your sources.

      • Andre 11.1.1

        Oddly enough, I did read them before posting. Do you think I might have missed something important?

        Maybe the researcher's conclusion?


        Ivermectin had no significant effect on preventing hospitalization of patients with COVID-19. Patients who received ivermectin required invasive MVS earlier in their treatment. No significant differences were observed in any of the other secondary outcomes.

        Or perhaps this nugget?

        All-cause mortality was 7 cases (1.40%) in the 501 patients, of which 4 were patients (1.60%) in the ivermectin group and 3 were patients (1.20%) in the placebo group,

        Or perhaps this little wrinkle pointing to ivermectin being ineffective as prophylaxis?

        Incredibly it was extremely hard to find patients for the trial. Why? Too many Argentinians it seems were already taking ivermectin.

        Of 15 968 people who tested positive for Covid and were excluded from taking part in the trial, 12 356 could not participate because they were already taking ivermectin. (We are also hearing anecdotal reports of South Africans using ivermectin.)

        Or perhaps you could point to what led you to suggest I should read my sources?

        • mauī

          Secondly, the mean dose of ivermectin was 192.37 μg/kg/day (SD ± 24.56), which is below the doses proposed as probably effective [20, 33].

          They used a low dose of Ivermectin in the study, and they only did a short dose of 2 consecutive days. From what I gather this is not the recommended dosage to treat with this drug.

          • Andre

            What is the recommended dose, who made the recommendation, and on what basis was the recommendation made?

            There's two links in that quote you found, what do they say? (hint: neither of them have any recommendation on actual dosages to try against covid, let alone having any kind of evidentiary basis)

            When it comes to the proposal that some specified substance treats some specified ailment, the default assumption has to be that it doesn't do shit in real life, no matter what happens in test tubes when the concentration is cranked way up. It's up to those claiming it actually does something useful to prove that, to a high standard.

            Nobody has come anywhere close to showing ivermectin does anything useful against covid to even a mediocre standard. Even with absolute garbage studies, the claimed improvements are really small by the time the probable outright frauds are weeded out. It's significant that as the quality of study improves, less actual beneficial effect is found.


            • mauī

              The two links were from the erroneous study you posted, so I doubt they will be much help re dosage.

              In the real world.. when conducting a scientific experiment it's often best to use the same dosage as what doctors say work in the real world… to you know test the hypothesis!

              • Andre

                So back to the question above, which you ghosted as you usually do for inconvenient questions:

                What is the recommended dose, who made the recommendation, and on what basis was the recommendation made?

                A key point of all these studies showing zero effectiveness is that the dosage used was the best guess by the doctors conducting the trial at what would be the most effective dose regime. Those that have had the honesty and integrity to set up reasonably robust trials of what they think is most likely to give positive outcomes have found – nothing, zip, nada. Those who let their hopes and motivated reasoning lead them into conducting badly designed and badly analysed trials with high risk of bias have found – at best very small effects, which haven't been replicated elsewhere.

  12. Incognito 12

    Johnson also took aim at Tinetti, saying “her silence has created this vast void under which all of this animosity has poured”, and called on the minister to “show leadership and say that … women have the right to speak about women’s rights”.

    Tinetti said she sent letters to several groups including Speak Up for Women, encouraging them to make a submission to select committee later this year.


    As always, there are multiple sides to a story/narrative and I refuse to be shoehorned into one or the other. It will be interesting to see how many submissions will be received this time and whether public opinion has changed much; opinion and debate certainly seem to be more polarised, which is never a good sign.

    • RedLogix 12.1

      As always, there are multiple sides to a story/narrative and I refuse to be shoehorned into one or the other.

      Indeed. I'm so tempted to put up a thread title "Man's Day" and exclude all women and any pro-feminist viewpoints from it. But that would be … provocative. Still given that feminists have spent two generations systematically dismantling all the traditional male-only spaces where men might have talked without the distraction of the female perspective – I can't help but note the delicious irony icing on this particular little cupcake.

      But as I stated yesterday, all of this was a more or less predictable outcome of the left elevating the post-modernist cult of Identity Politics to the loudest voice in our ideological narrative. Did it never occur to those who promoted it with such fervour, that the day might come when others would learn to play it as well?

      • Incognito 12.1.1

        Heh! It wouldn’t surprise me if some here would try to counter that by saying that some (most?) of TS could be considered ‘Man’s Day’. However, I understand the desire for a safe harbour to talk with like-minded people but this too easily leads to pseudo-debate and echo chamber stuff, IMO. I don’t think it fits well with the kaupapa of this site, but I stress that this is my personal opinion and I have to and (thus) will respect the opinions of others if/when they make a strong case for it.

        Regarding the merit of the loudest voice leading/ruling, this also happens to be one of allegations raised in regard to the self-destruction of the Auckland chapter of SS4C (see my other comment in OM). Indeed, it is highly predictable, especially in hindsight 😉

        • RedLogix

          Like you I'm not particularly against the idea of the thread. It seems largely populated by women who collectively burned their bridges with the male half of humanity a long time ago – and if they need an exclusive space to talk then well and good. But it's also obvious this is not a privilege they would extend to men.

          • Incognito

            I have a strong egalitarian streak and react to exclusive zones, spaces, meetings, communications, et cetera, and to hierarchical structures as well – a personal problem, obviously 😉 This is also one of the reasons why I have a major issue with the current state of the OIA in particular and with Government and State transparency and accountability in general.

            I believe strongly in fair and inclusive debate, which is one reason why I’m on this site and put considerable time and effort into it. Good robust debate is key; it is also lacking, not just here on The Standard but everywhere – people seem to have lost or never learned how to debate each other effectively. It is not about winning or losing, about being right or wrong, about power – all the power is in the coming together in and of mind & spirit; polarisation, division, separation, and exclusion always remove collective power and therefore individual power and mana as well.

            I see this reflected in the smoke & mirrors surrounding the so-called hate speech laws as well as He Puapua, for example – all symptomatic of the same problem. This this does not bode well for tackling global issues that affect all humanity and the planet for that matter. Sometimes, it feels we’re still stuck in day-care …

            • RedLogix

              I hear you. We don't always agree but I can sincerely respect the motives you express here.

              If I might add an optimistic note, while the standard of debate does fall short of what we might imagine as ideal, but honestly I think in some respects it has gotten better over the years. A quick glance at many social media comment threads shows that we could be a lot worse. yes

              • Incognito

                Affirmative, you and I don’t always agree but that’s ok with me; what matters is how we disagree and, for the record, I don’t have any major personal complaints 🙂

                As far as your optimistic note is concerned, I don’t know whether to laugh or to cry 😉

            • pat

              Interesting discussion….after talking to female members of my circle re trans rights and 'womens space' I've come to the conclusion that like any group of people the viewpoints will vary tremendously though with one underlying theme…its all good for for men.

              Oh that it was.

          • Shanreagh

            Like you I'm not particularly against the idea of the thread. It seems largely populated by women who collectively burned their bridges with the male half of humanity a long time ago – and if they need an exclusive space to talk then well and good. But it's also obvious this is not a privilege they would extend to men.

            I haven't seen a comment like this about women since the 1970s when we were all dried up prunes and men haters for thinking as we did. wink

            • RedLogix

              And I can readily find equivalent ghettos on the internet of men who have similarly 'burned their bridges with women'. You call it misogyny.

              That both sexes are in a very real sense sundering their ancient connection and literally 'going their own separate ways' is in my view a totally predictable consequence that I was in my own fumbling way attempting to outline years ago. Watching it all unfold in real-time gives me no pleasure, trust me.

        • weka

          "… I don’t think it fits well with the kaupapa of this site…"

          Do you feel that way about the Lefties on the Standard posts too?

      • Muttonbird 12.1.2

        I'm not hurt by the "dismantling of traditional male-only spaces", because those spaces harboured and legitimised the very misogynistic oppression and abuse which is in the process of being addressed today.

        As always, those against identity politics are those against the questioning of their traditional power.

        Why some men feel the need to insert themselves into every discussion, mansplaining the righteousness of the status quo is beyond me.

        • RedLogix

          How very 80's of you.

          • Muttonbird

            Would you like me to make a plea on the Women's Day thread to let you in so you can tell them about all the mistakes they've made over the years?

            • RedLogix

              No. As I said above, they're welcome to talk among themselves. I've refrained from commenting on almost anything gender related for almost four years now and contrary to what you imagine, I'm not at all keen on 'inserting myself into that conversation'.

              I'm merely observing the the endless 'gender critical' threads of recent months and noting it as a predictable outcome of the entire post-modernist project, of which 'identity politics' was a large component. Which is pretty much all I have to say for the moment.

              • Shanreagh

                If you would like to 'learn by reading' on the Women's Day thread TeWhareWhero's summation (post 7.1) of the move from Womens' Studies to Gender issues/Studies is instructive.

      • Gabby 12.1.3

        November 19, you're welcome.

        • Incognito

          Can you wait that long before you comment here again? Please, thank you.

    • Forget now 12.2

      I heard about that elsewhere, good to have a verifiable source for the story, Incognito. This from the SUFW spokeswoman was also good (not often I type that phrase!):

      “We are calling for respectful, considered public dialogue. This is the last thing we want. We don’t know the validity of that [slapping] claim … but I absolutely condemn physical violence and abuse,” Johnson said.

      After the Wi Spa violence, it is good to know that the local branch of that trans averse franchise are not gearing up for literal, rather than figurative war. Though trusting that many trans folk believe a word she says at this point seems a bit of a forlorn hope. Really hoping people don't start going to protests armed with protective gear that could become weapons at the wrong moment.

      • weka 12.2.1

        you seem to be running a line that GCF women are violent despite any evidence for that.

        Meanwhile, https://terfisaslur.com/ documents the range of violent, often sexually violent imagery that's been targeted at GCFs by GAs online.

        Almost like violence runs along gendered lines (by which I mean sex and gender, but we already knew that).

        • weka

          And just so you know, I had a quick look at the link from the other thread re Wi Spa and I'm not finding any credible evidence that the video was a hoax. I'm seeing speculation that it was, which is fine, but that's a different thing.

          It also looks like the stabbings were by far right activists. This was in a conflict with antifa. I'm not seeing how women are involved in this at all.

          I don't want to spend much time on this tonight, so I'm giving you a warning in comment rather than stepping into moderator mode. You will have to up your game in this debate. If you want to argue that women in NZ present a violent threat to trans people at protest actions, you will need to make an actual argument and back it up if making claims. Dropping in slur comments and using trans activist opinion based websites as evidence fails the requirements here for robust debate.

          My suggestion is read the Policy. I want strong debate on sex/gender from all sides because I belief that NZ will be better for an open and honest examination of the issues. You bring in important perspectives, but you are going to have to learn how to present them directly. If you don't know what I am getting at here, please ask.

          In the end my moderation response will come down to how much of my time gets sucked up chasing up useless links or asking for back up for claims or explanations of arguments poorly made. This isn't specific to you, or the topic, it's how it's been for a long time on site.

          Because this isn't the first time I've had to explain how things work here, next time I have to think about this as a moderator I'll be putting boundaries in place. I suggest you get into the habit of linking well every time, and also cut and pasting the bits from the link that support what you are saying. This is so others don't have to do the work to find what your actual argument is. The onus is on you to state your argument clearly.

          • Forget now

            Warning read.

          • Drowsy M. Kram

            If you want to argue that women in NZ present a violent threat to trans people at protest actions, you will need to make an actual argument and back it up if making claims.

            Imho some cis NZers are a threat to trans NZers, and NZ is pretty typical in this regard. If it's too much to expect acceptance, or even tolerance, then at least a little more understanding on all 'sides' wouldn't go amiss.


            STELLAR PRITCHARD | HERE WE ARE [18 Nov. 2020]
            Moe: For me motherhood means like it's, it's creating, so it's like kinda help, helping create worlds, for, say, Stellar, creating a world of safety, where she's able to live her authentic self and be unapologetic and, um, having support from us, as well as myself, to guide her through this thing called trans-queer life.

            Stellar: All of us weren't necessarily born into womanhood. We had to fight to get accepted, we have to fight to get understood. And we have to find who we are especially, and we have to find ourselves through our communities, and we have to find ourselves through… events, the best and the hardest events of our lives. Yeah, and I feel like all of us have to fight for the womanhood that we have, because there's so many people that will try and doubt our womanhood, and there's so many people that won't understand our womanhood. I may have been treated like that, but I'm not going to fall – yeah.

            Gender Violence
            Transgender Experiences with Violence and Discrimination
            [2002; cited 1088 times]
            There is a pervasive pattern of discrimination and prejudice against transgendered people within society. Both economic discrimination and experiencing violence could be the result of a larger social climate that severely sanctions people for not conforming to society's norms concerning gender; as such, both would be strongly associated with each other. Questionnaires were distributed to people either through events or through volunteers, and made available upon the World Wide Web. A sample of 402 cases was collected over the span of 12 months (April 1996-April 1997). We found that over half the people within this sample experienced some form of harassment or violence within their lifetime, with a quarter experiencing a violent incident. Further investigation found that experiencing economic discrimination because one is transgendered had the strongest association with experiencing a transgender related violent incident. Economic discrimination was related to transgendered people's experience with violence. Therefore, both hate crimes legislation and employment protections are needed for transgendered individuals.

            Can't help wondering if those who identify as trans NZers today are that much better off than 25 years ago when data were collected for the above study.

            Factors associated with suicide attempts among Australian transgender adults [2021]
            Transgender, including gender diverse and non-binary people, henceforth referred to collectively as trans people, are a highly marginalised population with alarming rates of suicidal ideation, attempted suicide and self-harm. We aimed to understand the risk and protective factors of a lifetime history of attempted suicide in a community sample of Australian trans adults to guide better mental health support and suicide prevention strategies.

            Experiences and factors associated with transphobic hate crimes among transgender women in the San Francisco Bay Area: comparisons across race [2021]
            Trans women experience high rates of gender-based violence (GBV)—a risk factor for adverse health outcomes. Transphobic hate crimes are one such form of GBV that affect trans women. However, little is understood about factors that shape transphobic hate crimes and racial/ethnic variation in these experiences. To contextualize GBV risk and police reporting, we examined self-reported types and correlates of transphobic hate crimes by racial/ethnic group of trans women in the San Francisco Bay Area.

            Many, possibly a majority, of cis and trans women continue to face many challenges, but it's not a competition (or at least it shouldn't be, imho.) NZ can look to other countries to identify progressive strategies that might minimise real and perceived violence and discrimination against all women.

            States Must Push Back Against Harmful Anti-Gender Narratives – UN Expert [26 June 2021]
            Gender theory is a powerful tool to address the oppression of female or non-normative identities,” the report says. “Feminist struggle and the fight to live free from violence and discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity are deeply intertwined, and they reinforce each other.

            https://www.hrc.org/ – "Breaking down barriers that divide us"

            Transgender people who experience discrimination and stigma are more likely to have poor mental health outcomes
            To improve the mental health and wellbeing of transgender people, we need to address the stigma and discrimination that they face. We also need to protect transgender people from violence, as a priority in sexual and domestic violence work.

            Report trans discrimination, Human Rights Commission urges
            The Human Rights Commission is urging people to report cases of discrimination in flatting situations, despite it being lawful.

            This comes after RNZ revealed trans woman Kristine Ablinger's landlord gave her three hours to move out of her home because she found her 'offensive'.

            Ablinger laid a complaint with the Commission, but was shocked to learn an exception to the Human Rights Act meant the discrimination she faced was not unlawful, and the Commission was unable to take action.

            Why 1 in 5 transgender people experience homelessness
            "So, my mum hates me. She doesn't hate me per se, but she just doesn't agree with, in her words, 'my lifestyle'. Whatever that means. So, yeah."
            Almost one in five trans and non-binary New Zealanders have been homeless, according to 2018 survey Counting Ourselves. The proportion is even higher for non-European survey participants (a quarter), while 16 percent of European participants have experienced homelessness, the study found.

            Another survey, by Gender Minorities Aotearoa, found of 43 trans homeless people in Wellington, 79 percent had a mental health condition, and 47 percent had a disability. The survey, which is yet to be released publicly, also found that for three quarters of participants, homelessness had been experienced more than once.

            For some gender diverse people, intersecting identities – like ethnicity, disability, religion or sexuality – can compound to make life even more difficult. The cumulative effects of these minority stresses can result in mental health difficulties and stable housing is a key ingredient in the maintenance of good mental health.

  13. Incognito 13

    An interesting PoV from an insider into the implosion of the Auckland chapter of SS4C. Self-appointed leadership and the lack of structure are mentioned as a possible contributing reasons. Hopefully, it was a learning curve for some, at least.


  14. Morrissey 14

    Several tons of blowback—but will the dismal Daily Mail get the message?

    What's the bet that a similar protest is on the way for the execrable NZ Herald one of these days?


  15. Stephen D 15

    This is too soon and insensitive. I do wonder how many of the farmers who drove their tractors into town one day, have their hand out for govt help following floods the next.

    • Incognito 15.1

      I think it is perfectly ok when farmers ask and receive help and government assistance when there’s a natural disaster. It would be totally wrong to try and link that to democratic protest or to giving one party more leverage over the other – the power balance is almost never equal/symmetrical anyway. Similarly, should nurses, for example, have more negotiating leverage because of what they’re doing as part of the Covid elimination strategy? There’s a calculating and neo-liberal aspect to this, if you ask me, as with the farmers who claim that they feed us, et cetera. The unrealistic and unjustified elevation of people rather than functions has led to over-paid managers, Directors, and CEOs, IMO. The question is: where do you draw the line and how?

  16. greywarshark 16

    When will government be able to take control over the country again, and ensure that their policies are being carried out well, in a timely fashion, and wield some stick?

    This business of contracting out of the job is getting to be a farce. Government departments contract out to others, they contract out to associated suppliers, operatives, and now to computer machines and algorithms. These are not doing the job properly, and our economy is built on people doing jobs, it gets leaner paradoxically when people aren't receiving pay to do stuff that machines can do faster and more efficiently. Though it is cheaper, which looks good on one financial statement, it does people out of a job which lowers the money flow and small local business suffers.

    Here larger business is suffering from this devilish system. https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO2107/S00113/exporters-can-check-out-but-no-guarantee-they-can-return.htm

    Exporters’ trying to sustain essential trade and supply chains are in no man’s land, able to travel offshore but not return, blocked by the MIQ booking system which randomly throws up spots, gobbled up within seconds by gamers or people paid to sit hitting refresh round the clock despite assurances that 10 per cent of the 4,000 available rooms are allocated for critical business.

    Algorithms – What are these standards for government? https://www.zdnet.com/article/new-zealand-establishes-algorithm-charter-for-government-agencies/

  17. greywarshark 17

    The storm over parts of the country is largely over – Westport hit badly. Buller River was as high as a 1926 large flood.


  18. greywarshark 18

    Why do we get this undermining after there has been much research and a decision has been carefully made for all of our benefits.


    A group of dissident doctors have joined the ranks of those seeking to undermine confidence in New Zealand's vaccine campaign by spreading misinformation. What are they saying and do they pose a real threat to our Covid-19 response? CATE BROUGHTON reports.

    On June 14, talkback radio host Peter Williams welcomed Wellington GP Matt Shelton onto his show to discuss the Covid-19 vaccine.

    Shelton was from the little-known group New Zealand Doctors Speaking Out on Science (NZDSOS), Williams said.

    • McFlock 18.1

      When Williams pointed out the decrease in Covid-19 cases and deaths since the rollout of vaccination programmes overseas, Shelton claimed it was the result of widespread falsification of test results. Again, he provided no evidence.

      Well, if they're at the level of claiming that global death rates have been faked to make vaccines appear effective, I'd strongly suspect they're either having problems with reality or there's cash in it somewhere for them.

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