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Open mike 17/10/2020

Written By: - Date published: 12:01 am, October 17th, 2020 - 166 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

166 comments on “Open mike 17/10/2020 ”

  1. lprent 1

    Remember to read the Election Day rules post.

    Ignorance is just a reason to pick up a ban.

  2. PsyclingLeft.Always 2

    "Japan's government has decided to release radioactive water from the destroyed Fukushima nuclear plant into the sea, with a formal announcement expected to be made within this month, Kyodo news agency and other media reported."

    "Early this year, a panel of experts advising Japan's government on the disposal of radioactive water from the destroyed Fukushima plant, recommended releasing it into the ocean."

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/428540/japan-to-release-fukushima-contaminated-water-into-sea-reports

    A "panel of experts" ? Were they fans of Godzilla? or What?

    Meanwhile…

    "Japan’s government has pledged that the soil will moved to the interim storage facility and then, by 2045, to a permanent site outside of Fukushima prefecture as part of a deal with local residents who do not want their communities turned into a nuclear dumping ground.

    But the government’s blueprint for the soil is unravelling: so far, not a single location has agreed to accommodate the toxic waste."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/11/fukushima-toxic-soil-disaster-radioactive

    So, no one in Japan wants the contaminated soil (quite rightly ), but their Ocean..(Ours too) will take the contaminated water? Not good

  3. Robert Guyton 3

    Tip-toeing through a minefield!

    Looking forward to a very enjoyable evening with friends and family, watching the good news roll in!

    • Treetop 3.1

      The morning after either you wake up happy or disappointed. At least a coffee will cheer a disappointed person up if that is their fuel.

      • lprent 3.1.1

        It certainly is for me. Especially staying up well after midnight to look at the comparison behaviours of DateTime structures in php (not one of my daily languages).

        I'm sipping coffee while watching robots trying to login or to request login names using ?author=1 style queries. We're getting a lot of attempts on the site at present. Jetpack reports:-

        Brute force attack protection
        91,653 Blocked malicious login attempts

        I only turned that on a few months ago. And it isn't the first line of defence on that.

        Edit: That was odd – this was a reply to Treetop at 3.1. Oh well.. I am the sysop – I can trash and add the comment again.

  4. lprent 4

    Coffee in hand, I have removed the overnight moderation on this post. Yawn…

  5. PsyclingLeft.Always 5

    "Evidence of a changing climate is stacking up in the South.Kiwifruit can now be grown in Invercargill and Dunedin suffers from drought, a new report from the Ministry for the Environment says."

    Andrew Noone..

    "Otago Regional Council chairman Andrew Noone said the report was sobering."

    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/report-climate-change-effects-hitting-nz

    Eventually the elephant in the room…leaves no other room

    • WeTheBleeple 5.1

      Yes. I'm quite happily working on subtropical species right now due to climate change. Not happy about climate change, but happy I'm full steam ahead making adjustments that will help.

      Definitely time for growers to stop using clones and FI hybrids and to actually breed their own localised veggies with an ever watchful eye out for drought and heat tolerant genotypes.

      • Robert Guyton 5.1.1

        The tecomanthe I planted in my tunnelhouse didn't make it through the winter, but the cutting I took from it and grew inside over the cold season, is looking strong. I'll plant it out in the tunnelhouse tomorrow, in celebration.

        • ianmac 5.1.1.1

          A tecomanthe is a vine I take it. Is it scented or fruited?

          • greywarshark 5.1.1.1.1

            Vine from one site – the Kermadec Islands. Nice flower trumpet like I think. All I know.

            • William 5.1.1.1.1.1

              Only one plant from one site (Three Kings Islands) has ever been found. Flowers as you describe, seeds form in long pods up to about 200mm long, initially green but turn brown before they split open. My plant here in Wellington currently has one pod forming, previous years it has produced viable seed.

              • Robert Guyton

                I had high hopes for mine, but got complacent. The new vine will be pampered and hopefully produce seed some day. Well done you!

                • Beatie

                  I have one growing vigorously over my shed, here on the West Coast. Planted over 15 years ago in a frost free site, it flowers but doesn't seed

                  • William

                    Setting seed seems to be less reliable than flowering here, some years there's no seed. I'm unsure what pollinates them. I recall reading of one on Banks Peninsula producing viable seed.

    • weka 5.2

      I had rellies growing kiwifruit in Invercargill in the 70s. Bugger of a thing to get to ripen there though, lol. Microclimates make a big difference.

    • Adrian 5.3

      Well thats news to us in Marlborough where the grapes have had a bit of a hammering from the COLD this spring.

      • James Thrace 5.3.1

        I hope the grapes aren't going to take a hammering from that bastard pest, harlequin ladybug. They managed to infest Wellington summer last, and have heard from people in Marlborough that the harlequin has managed to establish itself over there. Another bloody pest bug that NZ doesn't need, and one that could utterly annihilate the wine industry in Marlborough.

        Harlequins are the ultimate in mimicry. As they look so similar to real ladybirds, people don't kill them like they should. Terrible things to kill as well as the skunky smell they leave behind no matter what, is absolutely foul.

    • Draco T Bastard 5.4

      Oh well, I suppose us coffee drinker will be happy as now the farmers will be able to grow coffee in the Southern Alps foothills. Probably go well with the grapes that are already grown there.

      • weka 5.4.1

        dunno about that, fresh snow in Otago last night.

        Had to look it up. Altitude, and sub tropical climate with defined wet and dry seasons.

        Quite a lot of rain too, which probably rules out lots of the east side of the SI.

      • Macro 5.4.2

        Actually coffee is now being grown roasted and ground right here in NZ – but in Northland not the Southern Alps.

        https://www.ikaruscoffee.co.nz/

      • Robert Guyton 5.4.3

        I have a coffee plant growing in my lounge – not quite warm enough outside just yet!

        • Macro 5.4.3.1

          My daughter is growing Coffee plants in Perth. But the Mulberry tree is my favourite. Sooo Yummy.

          • Robert Guyton 5.4.3.1.1

            Mulberries are superb!

            • Macro 5.4.3.1.1.1

              You should see their passionfruit vine! A couple of years back I built a metal support frame for it, and just as well I did, the thing is like a triffid and produces heaps of passionfruit. And the olives (6 of them) just dripping with big fat olives. The 28 parrots keep an eye on them – but there are still heaps for them and their friends. They also have a curry plant, and heaps more. All on a 400+ sqm section.

  6. lprent 6

    OMG not this again.

    Thought electioneering was over? Wrong. As the humans take their last chance to go to the ballot box, the birds are just starting their campaign, it's looking like a fierce one.

    If you thought today would be a day free from pleas for your vote and campaign promises you'd be wrong.

    Human politicians are legally silenced on voting day, but another election is kicking off and candidates are keen to get their messages across.

    It's not the United States elections, it's Bird of the Year. Voting opens on November 2 and the hopefuls are already out and about on social media, delivering messages, memes and smackdowns.

    The annual competition is Forest & Bird’s biggest event of the year. Communications advisor Laura Keown said last year at least 50,000 people engaged with it on the website.

    There really is only one choice lets concentrate on native birds of prey. One who traditional diet includes other birds. Ruru time (my favourite).. Or the NZ falcon, swamp harrier (kahu), and barn owl ? Oh the latter is apparently a aussie that is now breeding here.

    • ConcertFM (or RNZConcert) is running an election for the post popular classical music – voting closes Sunday 18th.

      Lol – last year an Auckland school block voted their school song – which just happened to be from Verdi's Aida.

      • lprent 6.1.1

        I’d vote for “paint it black” by the rolling stones. But I guess that classical music means dead and decomposing rather than composers who are still alive. Even if Mick Jagger does look like a bit like a mobile corpse these days.

        • Morrissey 6.1.1.1

          But I guess that classical music means dead and decomposing…

          ?????!!??

          Hell, Lin, that comment makes you sound like Chris Faafoi, or those rogue executives at RNZ who want to destroy Concert FM. sad

          • lprent 6.1.1.1.1

            I never listen to the concert programme. I have heard all of the classical repitore before I was 20.

            My sole interest in the concert programmes is that my 81yo father listens to it. He doesn’t have a Spotify account.

            One day I will show him how to pipe Bluetooth Spotify through his hearing aids, then he can curate his own classical music. The same way I do. I have several hundred tracks of that genre on a Playlist. They’re stored on my phone and on my computers as cached files. I also have access to a lot of volunteer curated Playlists.

            Broadcast music is very obsolete.

        • woodart 6.1.1.2

          very good choice lprent. I would probably pick

          sympathy for the devil , also by the greatest rock and roll band ever. good point about the qualifications to be considered classical. if it was a car, 35 yrs. if its that the composer is dead, theres plenty of dead rock composers..

        • Macro 6.1.1.3

          Nah! This is it.

          • woodart 6.1.1.3.1

            hard to disagree with his bobness, noble prize winner.

            • Macro 6.1.1.3.1.1

              That song was revolutionary in so many ways

              Critics have described the track as revolutionary in its combination of different musical elements, the youthful, cynical sound of Dylan's voice, and the directness of the question "How does it feel?" "Like a Rolling Stone" completed the transformation of Dylan's image from folk singer to rock star, and is considered one of the most influential compositions in postwar popular music. According to review aggregator Acclaimed Music, "Like a Rolling Stone" is the statistically most acclaimed song of all time.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Like_a_Rolling_Stone

      • Gabby 6.1.2

        Slave Chorus from Aida?

    • bwaghorn 6.2

      The karerearea all the way

      Watching the ones at work is always a pleasure. Have yet to witness a kill but watching them pass their catch to their mate and young mid air is always good,the occasional strafing from them is a bonus.

      • ianmac 6.2.1

        Some residents Anakiwa in the Sounds complained that the falcons made very annoying calls.

        • bwaghorn 6.2.1.1

          Townies really should stay in town they dont deserve the country.

        • weka 6.2.1.2

          really? Sounds an odd thing to complain about.

          Here it is, fairly annoying if it was happening alot, but people wouldn't normally be this close.

          [audio src="https://www.doc.govt.nz/globalassets/documents/conservation/native-animals/birds/bird-song/nz-falcon-song-12.mp3" /]

      • weka 6.2.2

        that's cool. Do you have native bush nearby?

        • bwaghorn 6.2.2.1

          Lots of bush pockets everywhere out here. They have been nesting just in a little patch for a few years but have shifted this year not sure where to so only see them on occasion which is a shame.

      • lprent 6.2.3

        Yeah. Just reminds me that I don’t get out of the city enough these days. Lack of good data for work and a lack of a pad between the right big toe and the foot bones causing a bone grate.

        I am just hoping that rural data will improve by the time I want to stop working.

      • Robert Guyton 6.2.4

        I could attract young karearea down with a dead mouse thrown into the air; one afternoon, one caught it.

    • weka 6.3

      if we're allowed extinct birds, Haast Eagle every time.

      Swamp harrier, is that what most people call a hawk? (also an Aussie migrant I think).

      • lprent 6.3.1

        That would be my preferred choice also.

      • Robert Guyton 6.3.2

        Extinct is okay? You can't go past a fully-fledged Archaeopteryx!

        • lprent 6.3.2.1

          Yeah, but can you prove that they ever existed in our lands.

          • Robert Guyton 6.3.2.1.1

            Yes. If you listen to the mellifluous calls of the tui, many of which were learned by its ancestors listening to now extinct birds like the huia, you'll hear some raucous croaking sounds every now and then; that's the echo of the cry of Archaeopterix, a common sound in our early fern and horsetail forests 🙂

    • millsy 6.4

      BOTY will always be the Tui for me.

      It sounds like magic. A native forest full of NZ birds is nature's stereo system.

      • greywarshark 6.4.1

        I seem to remember reading that some of the seamen-workers in the early ship landings asked to be allowed to sleep on board as the birds were so dominant that there wasn't enough quiet time for a tired man to get uninterrupted zzzz.

      • Macro 6.4.2

        My choice is the Bellbird – korimako who wakes me up with his song outside my bedroom window

      • The dawn chorus on Tirirtiri Matanga (spelling?) was almost deafening! A wonder to listen to and behold.

  7. Stephen D 7

    If you’re in the Whangaparaoa Electorate, Wade Hotel, Silverdale from 7.00 pm.

  8. Andre 8

    It's just struck me that I've read lots of stories about Drumpf 2016 to Biden 2020 voters, but I haven't seen anything about Hillary 2016 to Drumpf 2020 voters. Nothing.

    I guess that indicates if there actually is one, they're somewhere like MarmotRump, Montana, and their only communication with the outside world is via smoke signals.

    • Treetop 8.1

      A bit of water to go under the bridge until 3 November. Once the NZ election is over I will tune in more to the US election. The ratings for the US build up will hopefully widen. If so what is going to come out of the mouth of Trump is anyone's guess.

    • ianmac 8.2

      This morning Kim questioned her journalist guest who was saying that Trump refuses to condemn the White Supremesist or other extreme groups. Listeners pointed out the number of times Trump had been recorded condemning them. After justifying himself the interview ended abruptly I thought.

      • lprent 8.2.1

        I suspect that the issue is that Trump seldom condeems them immediately. He says something ambiguous. Then after a small shitstorm arises and he gets the headline he wants. He makes a suitably ambiguous statement condeeming everyone – including those quering him. More headlines.

        Nice way of getting headlines whilst never taking a stand. It is a pretty common way to do PR. The Kardashians also do it pretty well.

        I just ignore it as being a way that no talent dithering idiots seek fame and exposure.

      • Treetop 8.2.2

        I heard the interview. Interesting when it came to how Trump would leave were he to be defeated. Maybe Kim could bring the journalist back a week after the US election.

  9. Morrissey 9

    New York Times opinionista raves about those dastardly Russian masterminds; Kim Hill does not raise the slightest objection

    RNZ National, Saturday 17 October 2020, 8:10 a.m.

    This certainly sounded promising….

    8:10 The week in US politics: Nicholas Fandos

    …Facebook and Twitter have restricted access to a controversial New York Post story critical of Joe Biden, raising questions about how social media platforms should tackle misinformation. And President Trump is back up and dancing, but how are the final weeks of the campaign going for him? Nicholas Fandos, a reporter based in the Washington bureau for The New York Times, joins us to discuss. https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday

    However, towards the end of the interview, Fandos repeated the key propaganda point of the most ridiculous misinformation campaign of the last four years. Kim Hill let him chunter on, without raising the slightest demur. I sent her the following email….

    Nicholas Fandos lectures about conspiracy theories—then indulges in the "Russian" one

    Dear Kim,

    Nicholas Fandos spoke compellingly about the Republicans' suppression of the vote, and of Trump's racism, and his predilection for conspiracy theories—and then he suddenly started talking about "Russian manipulation."

    The Clinton campaign's absurd allegations about those sinister Russian masterminds is a conspiracy as weird and as free of evidence as anything cooked up by the sad souls at Q-Anon.

    Shame on you for failing to challenge him.

    Yours sincerely,

    Morrissey Breen Northcote Point

    • lprent 9.1

      Possibly she has her own opinion that doesn’t match your lunatic ideas.

      I know I do. I also respect her abilities to distinguish crap and fact far more than I respect yours. By several orders of magnitude. She appears to not live in a small and ever reducing bubble of information.

      • Morrissey 9.1.1

        Kim Hill is a true believer in the cranky notion that Russia is running Trump as an asset. She has given a free, uninterrupted, and uncritical platform to the most cynical political operatives and traducers (Alex Gibney, Jonathan Freedland, Simon Schama, A.A. Gill) and—perhaps her most foolish lapse—to the discredited conspiracy theorist Luke Harding. Yet you claim, in spite of all of that, to "respect her abilities to distinguish crap and fact."

        Your ad hominem attacks on me—"lunatic ideas… ever reducing bubble of information"—are as rigorous as her analyses of American politics.

        • lprent 9.1.1.1

          Yeah I always love the way that you routinely criticize others for traits that are so outstanding in yourself.

          My descriptions of how I view your badly thought through ramblings and opinions are simply a accurate representation of my assessment of how much value I place on them.

          There is no need to get defensive and uptight about it. Just value the considerable honesty and effort with which I make them.

          After all I could have used that effort on something more productive. Like changing the minds of machines with finely crafted and much more precise code.

          • Morrissey 9.1.1.1.1

            Yeah I always love the way that you routinely criticize others for traits that are so outstanding in yourself.

            No, when I criticise someone, even caustically, I always justify what I write by providing evidence. I don't just call Heather Du Plessis-Allen or Duncan Garner, for example, ignorant and nasty, I provide evidence of it. You have simply asserted something about me, without justification. That's nothing more than abuse.

            My descriptions of how I view your badly thought through ramblings and opinions are simply a accurate representation of my assessment of how much value I place on them.

            Your "descriptions" of my "ramblings and opinions" are unsupported by any evidence. It's mere assertion.

        • Sacha 9.1.1.2

          And she refuses to accept that the world is flat! I shall dash off a letter forthwith.

        • Gabby 9.1.1.3

          There is a fair bit of daylight between running prump as an asset and meddling to prompt an outcome that will damage yankistan.

        • Andre 9.1.1.4

          Just putting this out because I enjoy that droning mozzie whine so much …

          https://www.huffpost.com/entry/kayleigh-mcenany-everyone-is-against-us-tweet_n_5f89eb3dc5b62dbe71c290dc

      • xanthe 9.1.2

        I am surprised you are so gullible on this matter Lprent

        • lprent 9.1.2.1

          I’m not. I just have a extremely good memory and a scientists / historian / programmers ability to look at patterns. I am also blessed with an extreme reading speed so I seldom get caught in teeny bubbles of self-referential fabrications like some of you bozos.

          It means that I am seldom gullible about anything. The Russian institutional patterns of behaviour are just as distinctive as those of the other major and minor players. The US for instance. When I see them repeating certain things, that have shown up in their history then there are usually only two or three usual explanations. I just eliminate and act on the basis of the most likely ones.

          Have you ever asked yourself why Estonia now has such a paranoid computer network for instance. And what the implication are for that for other countries. I sure as hell did. It shows up in the bordering states. The same way that I was looking at the attacks on the Iranian uranium processing.

          Fingerprints on the net are quite distinctive. You may not be able to definitively prove who was involved. But you can be sure who was most likely to be doing the deed – and act accordingly.

          Basically, I consider that most of you illiterates are just kind of retarded in your delusions. You tend to believe people who have no competence in networks blathering on about networks. I really don’t care what people say – I’m interested in what I can see,.

          • xanthe 9.1.2.1.1

            yeah sure with your superior powers etc etc bla bla. you actually know absolutely nothing about my skill set!

            do the russions, USA, UK, etc etc etc regularly indulge in unethical online behaviour , absolutely !

            is there any actual evidence of anything other than BAU that actually materially altered the US 2016 election. absolutely not.

            Thank you for your time.

            • Andre 9.1.2.1.1.1

              you actually know absolutely nothing about my skill set!

              To be honest, my conclusion from your commentary here is that it's the empty set.

    • Subliminal 9.2

      For a good historical overview of Russiagate and the uses to which it will now be put in online censorship along with the clowns entrusted with the desion making the following is enlightening from Craig Murray. And nobody can accuse him of promoting Putin whom he has no love for. This isnt a binary conversation. Its possible to recognise the idiocy of Russiagate and the uses that conservative ideologues will put it to without becoming a Putin or Trump cheerleader.

      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2020/08/the-russian-interference-report-without-laughing/

      • Morrissey 9.2.1

        Well said, my friend. Be aware, however, that this is a site on which several of the moderators have poured ridicule on Craig Murray, Glenn Greenwald, and even Noam Chomsky. You have by daring to question one of this forum’s articles of faith, i.e. the Russiagate narrative, now opened yourself up for retribution which is intended to be nasty but which is in fact (unintentionally) amusing. As you can see in the comments above yours, my temerity in criticizing Dame Hill has engendered from one person a spray about "badly thought through ramblings"—sans evidence—followed by self praise of his own "considerable honesty and effort". After that, another person suggests that my critique of La Hill makes me a flat earther.

        Thankfully our friend Gabby has then posted one of her gnomic contributions, which injects a little levity to the situation. smiley

  10. greywarshark 10

    'Professor Judith Butler is an activist, philosopher, and critical theorist who has spent decades writing about gender.'

    This mix of disciplines would be perfect i think for producing the arguments and furore over sex and gender being taken to extremes that we are receiving.

    On this morning with Kim.

    10:05 Feminist philosopher Judith Butler: why gender still causes trouble

    Professor Judith Butler is an activist, philosopher, and critical theorist who has spent decades writing about gender.

    She's authored several books, but is best known for her widely influential 1990 work Gender Trouble, in which she argues that gender is a kind of performance.

    Recently she's spoken up against a vocal minority of feminists who reject the assertion that trans women are women.

    Her latest book is The Force of Nonviolence.

    • Sacha 10.1

      A very intelligent discussion well-grounded in decades of critical theory – (35 mins) https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2018768768/feminist-philosopher-judith-butler-why-gender-still-causes

    • weka 10.2

      one of the stupider aspects of the sex/gender wars is the weaponising of semantics. It's understandable and not stupid as a war tactic, but I expect those not engaged to grasp what is going on and they often don't.

      If one uses the term woman to refer to biological sex, then obviously trans women are male not female. If one uses the term woman to refer to social gender, then I can see why trans women want to be part of the class that is women (and also why women have some issues with that). GCFs insist on the first usage exclusively, TAs the later.

      The main problem here is the suppression of debate, and us not having moved past the semantic weapons to a better understanding so we can try and figure out some solutions.

      Didn't hear the whole interview, but the bits I did hear made me think that Butler is adept at not answering questions (she neatly avoided talking the issues for detrans women for instance). I also thought that Hill asking Butler what GCFs think and feel is akin to asking politicised anti-abortionists what feminists think and feel about abortion. Just not a useful question unless Hill was going to dig in deeper (which she didn't).

      Would have to listen to the whole thing, but Hill seemed a bit out of her depth (although she may also have been feeling the need to be careful in how she did the interview because of the risk of backlash).

      • Sacha 10.2.1

        If one uses the term woman to refer to biological sex

        .. then there are other consequences, which Butler described concisely. Really worth listening to the whole thing.

        • weka 10.2.1.1

          I will if I get the time, but have to say her evasiveness wasn't attracting me to listening to the whole thing.

          (I agree there are other consequences, and my preference is we get to have a public conversation about all the issues. The war is ugly and harming lots of different people).

          • Draco T Bastard 10.2.1.1.1

            Probably not evasiveness but trying to answer a question that didn't really apply.

            • weka 10.2.1.1.1.1

              Butler will know full well about the detrans issues, she chose not to address them even when asked direction. The question was clear and relevant, Hill didn't follow up and Butler easily deflected.

              • Draco T Bastard

                Everything I've read/listened to so far indicates that you're reading her wrong:

                We depend on gender as a historical category, and that means we do not yet know all the ways it may come to signify, and we are open to new understandings of its social meanings. It would be a disaster for feminism to return either to a strictly biological understanding of gender or to reduce social conduct to a body part or to impose fearful fantasies, their own anxieties, on trans women… Their abiding and very real sense of gender ought to be recognised socially and publicly as a relatively simple matter of according another human dignity. The trans-exclusionary radical feminist position attacks the dignity of trans people.

                And she most definitely got her reading of what J.K. Rolling said wrong.

                • weka

                  which GCF critiques of Butler have you been reading?

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    What's that got to do with the price of fish?

                    • weka

                      there is a massive culture war going on, and it's impacting society in ways that most of society aren't even aware of yet, including in legislation. If you want to understand Butler, it pays to read the critiques, and in the war understanding the GCF position is imperative.

                      Left wing GCFs aren't anti-trans, they want trans people to be ok too. They're not going to give up women's rights, and until progressive get to grips with the conflict of rights here and set ourselves to find good resolutions for all, there is going to be a lot of blood shed.

        • Nic the NZer 10.2.1.2

          For our erudition, how does gender studies define gender without reference to biological gender? All the explanations of LGBT categories I have seen define then with reference to biological males or females, but this would not allow these categories to exist without the foundational biological categories.

      • Morrissey 10.2.2

        Hill seemed a bit out of her depth…

        As she was in her credulous encounter with that Russiagate conspiracy theorist a couple of hours earlier.

      • Nic the NZer 10.2.3

        Rest assured the weaponisation of language is intentional, and it won't be stopping any time soon.

  11. mpledger 11

    I see the horticulteralists are talking about labour shortages and no NZers wanting to do the work. The problem is that if a person isn't single then they have to maintain their current home and the place they move to when they do the vinyard work. The money may be above minimum but it's not enough to keep two homes going especially when one of the places to try and live is Queenstown.

    • Pat 11.1

      The claims about recompense are disingenuous…the fact that some can achieve perhaps $30 p/h it misrepresents the reality..some exceptional individuals can run a 4 min mile but we know the overwhelming majority will never come close to that level…and then theres the issue that the hours are not guaranteed and the potential productivity of the crops to be harvested vary by time and location.

      If the business is not viable providing pay and conditions at a level that attracts local labour then quite simply the business model is not viable and it needs to be recognised…either automate, pay at a level that attracts local labour or find another activity.

      • woodart 11.1.1

        woner how many of these horticulturalists will change over to growing marijuarna if it legalised?

      • Stuart Munro 11.1.2

        either automate

        Automation isn't the only alternative there, and it leads to a presumption of commoditized production. What humans are better at than machines is producing high quality products, that a mass market approach tends to compromise. When that comes to things like fruit that might mean individual bagging and manual thinning for market size preferences. The quality focus also tends to reduce waste that can hide in larger production streams.

        They really want their exploitable labour. How much they really need that labour force will become apparent if the immigration rules get enforced for a change, and growers are obliged to hire or pick themselves. I have a feeling the real driver of the grower 'need' was a desire to alter the dynamics of the market massively in their favour. By no means all of those desirable (to employer) outcomes were in the public interest.

        • Sacha 11.1.2.1

          Simpler investment in machinery mentioned a few weeks ago when this was in the news: wheeled hydraulic lifting platforms that can take the workers to the fruit without trips up and down ladders. Reduces the need for workers to have rugby thighs.

          • Robert Guyton 11.1.2.1.1

            Says Ned Ludd smiley

          • Stuart Munro 11.1.2.1.2

            Yes – NZ employers aren't noted for their enthusiasm for investing in machinery.

            As long as they can sweet-talk invertebrate administrations they'll rely on, and increase the use of migrant labour.

            • Sacha 11.1.2.1.2.1

              As a 'covid' compromise, this time the public may be expected to subsidise their 'shovel ready' capital investment instead. Bless the free market.

      • Draco T Bastard 11.1.3

        If the business is not viable providing pay and conditions at a level that attracts local labour then quite simply the business model is not viable and it needs to be recognised…either automate, pay at a level that attracts local labour or find another activity.

        Exactly.

        The whole point of the free-market is to have non-viable businesses shut down and so we should be seeing these businesses shutting down. Instead, they go crying to government and get to import cheap labour in complete contradiction to their professed backing of the free-market.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 11.2

      I see the horticulteralists are not talking about labour wages shortages and no NZers wanting to do the work.

      FIFY

      • lprent 11.2.1

        The article I saw this morning did mention wages. Paying above minimum wages, with a prospect of earning more. However they glossed over the problems involved in moving between jobs High accommodation costs in moving. Lack of support for dependents. And of course the perennial disincentive of idiotic standdown periods when there was no work.

        Basically the business model is wrong.

        • Draco T Bastard 11.2.1.1

          If they paid enough to support all of that then they'd go broke and everybody knows it.

          • Brigid 11.2.1.1.1

            " they'd go broke"

            Not necessarily. Just a reduction in their own income. A scenario they're obviously not prepared to consider. They've got use to an income far greater than their parents was when they employed young care-free NZers 40 years ago.

            Although I guess with the increased income they've increased their debt….

            • Draco T Bastard 11.2.1.1.1.1

              I'm pretty sure that if they paid all the costs of short term jobs then they'd go broke. IMO, that applies to all of NZ businesses.

              They want a free labour market but can't actually afford to pay for it.

              In reality, a free-market costs more as everyone needs to be able to cover the cost of not being employed and the costs of moving unexpectedly for work.

            • Pat 11.2.1.1.1.2

              "Not necessarily. Just a reduction in their own income."

              and

              "Although I guess with the increased income they've increased their debt…."

              Pretty much, the debt growth model has a lot to answer for

    • weka 11.3

      the piece I saw was basically MSM running PR for an industry intent on getting government policy change to suit itself and to avoid decent pay and work conditions. I'm planning on doing a post this week, there's so much bullshit on this atm.

    • Beatie 11.4

      I worked in Motueka for a few seasons in the 70s. Pay was basic, but the job included free accommodation and being paid when it was too wet to work. No worries about being stood down for the dole either, as jobs were plentiful. At the time Motueka was a bit scruffy and run down . Now it reeks of money.

  12. greywarshark 12

    Another way that bureaucrats are holding us back from doing practical things while enabling other things that are in vogue.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/428533/warning-squabbling-may-delay-action-over-coastal-erosion
    Keith Newman, who lives in Haumoana on the coast, is one who has seen the effects of erosion first hand….
    He is the chairman of Walking on Water, an trust set up to help find solutions for erosion.

    Newman said he was pleased that after years councils had banded together to do something.
    But there was still debate on how to pay for it and Newman warned that too much bureaucracy could delay much-needed action.

    • Sacha 12.1

      Managed retreat of dwellings from climate change impacts like rising seas is a far bigger thing than one settlement or council can decide on. It's why the proposed replacement for the RMA includes a dedicated nationwide law on it.

      • greywarshark 12.1.1

        Yes it's a big job to tackle. Individual councils need to think about it too and not just wait to be told. In Nelson our council was thinking of building expensive buildings on the river bank across a previous swamp area with the seafront a short distance away and just some metres above sea level.

        • Sacha 12.1.1.1

          They are waiting for a national lead on it, otherwise what they do can set precedent in their area. Huge expensive decision.

      • weka 12.1.2

        how are they intending to decide who will get assistance when? At some point there needs to be a cutoff right? (esp for new builds, personally I think that should be now).

    • joe90 12.2

      Perhaps the bureaucrats know a boondoggle when they see one.

      • weka 12.2.1

        two years ago. Wonder what the state of those properties is now.

      • WeTheBleeple 12.2.2

        Can learn a bit watching that. Triple walls seem the way to go, with the first two walls close together and crenellated in a pattern of overlap to take maximum wave impact simultaneously dissipating it and allowing rapid drainage. And in between the front and back a place for any water thrown up and over to collect and drain.

        They've made some interlocking concrete blocks down south somewhere's which is smart so you can create massive structures from smaller efforts, adding to and subtracting from them as desired.

        A combo of this kitset kiwi ingenuity with some designs run through models to maximise wave dissipation could really help some places.

        Sea level models will also show us where to hold em, and where to fold em. Some places a small wall might save a lot of land. In others…

        • weka 12.2.2.1

          there's also a case for finding best use of buildings in such a zone rather than just trashing them. Those houses on the North Island town that the council want not lived in any more because of rainfall flooding but the locals want to stay, they should be allowed to stay so long as they know the risks.

          The wave house people should be funded out of there if they don't want to be there, but there needs to be a cut off point. Building or buying on the coast now should have a caveat.

        • joe90 12.2.2.2

          Tetrapods are the only thing that'll cut it. But costly.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrapod_(structure)

          • weka 12.2.2.2.1

            only useful if they can be made without cement (or cement can be made without GHG emissions).

          • aj 12.2.2.2.2

            Costly solution, who pays for it, and still won't prevent a determined coastline change. Removal of material under any protection barrier cannot be stopped, only slowed.

  13. WeTheBleeple 13

    Here is a lengthy, but brilliant, article concerning NZ's move toward regenerative agriculture. The political will behind it, and the hurdles we face in implementing it correctly.

    The article makes a great point about levies on synthetic ferts being detrimental if alternative systems or support are not in place for farmers.

    We can do this. We are positioned to become the worlds best food producer and get the best prices. But we need to do it right.

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/14-10-2020/organics-regenerative-agriculture-and-the-political-will-to-grow-the-movement/?

  14. PaddyOT 14

    One of Trump's 'miracle' drugs fails the claim in the WHO Solidarity clinical trials.
    "The drug having no life-saving effect at all. It is a similar message ( of failure ) for preventing people needing ventilation or speeding up people's recovery."

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-54566730

    Did Trump really have Covid19 or was it an NPD's #sadfishing stunt ?

  15. joe90 15

    Thread about Zuckerberg's FB gaming their system to starve investigative journalism outlets of traffic and burying them under the very RW crank sites who cry about being censored.

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1317191129964556288.html

  16. Scud 16

    There are 4 more articles on Jacinda and the election in the Weekend Australian, I haven’t read them as yet as I usually read the sports and Business Sections on Saturday.

    Anyway I assume it will be normal service once the polls are closed? As I missed the closing of the tote last night for today’s race meeting with Weka’s post on CC.

    Anyway Folks have a lovely day in NZ today and don’t drink too much tonight when the counting starts. Also make sure everyone gets out and vote.

    See you sometime tomorrow.

    • lprent 16.1

      yes – at 1900 the blocks lift, and I would guess that we get some posts popping up.

    • Draco T Bastard 16.2

      Anyway Folks have a lovely day in NZ today and don’t drink too much tonight when the counting starts.

      Am doing and it really is a beautiful day here in Auckland.

      And I get to break my first kegged beer:

      • joe90 16.2.1

        Do report back.

        • Draco T Bastard 16.2.1.1

          Despite a minor technicality (the CO2 charger being broken resulting in excess pressure) its come out quite good.

      • greywarshark 16.2.2

        Like your 'distressed' paintwork on the verandah, plus the look-alike ornamental paw prints. After tonight who can guess what the decoration will look like?

  17. PaddyOT 17

    Weekly Economic Update – 16 October 2020 – cheery pickings ?

    Household spending remains strong.
    Total income support numbers fell this week . "The weekly proportion of cancelled Jobseeker grants where the recipient had obtained work has been trending up since June."

    Food prices fell in September.

    The IMF revises upwards for a better than expected GDP outturn in developed countries.

    Rent prices continued to rise.
    Property investors have been driving increase in house sales. "an average of 32 days to sell, is the lowest September result for 3 years."

    ( A risk-free rate of return method (RFRM) of taxation or a brightline tax NOW without any time frames on 2nd and consecutive houses anyone?)

    https://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/weu/weekly-economic-update-16-october-2020-html

  18. Koff 18

    It's Monty Python in Oz as 230 kiwi 'holidaymakers' (Scomo speak for family reunions with the Oz based kiwi diaspora) fly into Sydney without having to go through quarantine for the first time. It's only one way as Aussies can't leave Oz anyway and NZ will make anyone quarantine and pay for it anyway. Then 17 of the kiwi 'holidaymakers' jump on the next plane to Melbourne, just recovering from 9 weeks lockdown and are seized and told they are not welcome in Victoria as they haven't been quarantined after arrival from virus free NZ. No-one is taking responsibility for the stuff up. The only other place the 'holidaymakers' are allowed to go is the NT, a lovely place to visit at this time of the year in the 35 to 40C build up and crocs on every beach. Meanwhile, NSWers can't even get into Queensland. Not sure if Australia actually exists at the moment.

    • greywarshark 18.1

      The official in charge of tourism sounds peeved that Australians can't come from their bug… infested country to our clean (at present) one. I think he would rather stop Kiwis coming into his space and bringing our tourist dollars, if they can't do the same. I wonder what the Oz businesses think of that less than business-like approach?

      Apparently Australians can register to be allowed across the SA border. But not being able to come here, requires retaliation – simple equation for an Australian. I could understand some time in isolation just to be sure – three days for those from a Covid-free NZ and not having been in a hot-spot is another query. Also Kiwis should not move around much; originally it was suggested just NSW and Northern Territory. But Kiwis are more at risk than Australians I think.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018768713/new-zealanders-can-fly-to-australia-but-it-comes-with-a-warning
      To enter South Australia from another state, you simply need to register your intention to travel. But the South Australian Tourism Commission marketing manager Brent Hill said Kiwis shouldn't take that as a greenlight to head to the likes of the Barossa Valley in their droves.

      "As much as we definitely want to see Kiwis here, we love having them here, they're great tourists, they get around and see a a lot of our state and we think we've got a lot to offer New Zealanders.

      "I think from our perspective it's reasonably convoluted and complicated at the moment in terms of how they can travel around, I guess our advice would be when it is free to move and travel both ways that is probably the optimum time to come."

      Hill said he understood people wanting to make urgent trips to see friends and family, but he has a message for state hoppers.
      "If people are intending to do things like travelling into New South Wales and then getting in cars and coming through, you don't want to get caught up and find yourself unwittingly having to do quarantine or something of that nature, and I think it's just easier, it shouldn't be too far away that we have an open bubble on both ends.

  19. RedBaronCV 19

    I'm thinking of getting rid of my email account because I get rubbish and the odd plumbers bill – which could be sent to my phone number I suspect. Any thoughts ?? Has anyone done this?

  20. greywarshark 20

    This is a NZ Rail initiative to celebrate.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/428570/interislander-brings-back-bands-on-board-for-summer
    Bands will be able to cross the Cook Strait for free this summer, provided they perform during the crossing…

    It's only possible to do on the Kaitaki ferry sailings however, as no other ferry has the stage area to host musicians.

    Since 2006, 4694 sailings have had an artist perform, with genres spanning across folk, jazz, blues and reggae

  21. greywarshark 21

    From Radionz 4.23pm today.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/428576/election-2020-advance-votes-total-just-under-2-million

    Great statistics.

    Advance votes have increased about 60 percent compared to the previous election, with just under 2 million votes cast before election day this year.

    The Electoral Commission has reported the statistics this afternoon, recording 1,976,996 total advance votes including 233,575 cast on Friday, the final day before the election.

    That compares to just 1,240,740 advance votes cast in 2017, which accounted for about 47 percent of the 2,630,173 total votes….

    However, people this year for the first time have the option to enrol and vote on voting day, so total enrolment numbers could still increase. About 92 percent of eligible voters have already enrolled….

    Early voting has notably increased on the Māori roll, with 77,600 Māori having cast their vote by 14 October, a 98 percent increase on the same period in 2017.

    Advance votes do not include special votes – for example prisoners, overseas voters, people voting on the unpublished roll, or those unable to vote at a voting place – which totalled more than 440,000 votes in the previous election.

  22. millsy 22

    I havent been this nervous in ages. 7pm cannot come soon enough.

  23. Gabby 23

    That's such a good idea that it is hard to think who at kiwirail could have come up with it.

    • greywarshark 23.1

      I was surprised to see that since 2006 they have been encouraging musicians to some extent. So good on them, and let's hear more innovative business-building ideas.

  24. greywarshark 24

    Can someone tell me who the bearded guy for the Green Party was next to Sue Bradford on Radionz after 10 pm?

  25. joe90 25

    I did wonder why #ptcruiser was trending.

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