Open mike 18/07/2022

123 comments on “Open mike 18/07/2022 ”

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1. Ad 1

   18 July 2022 at 7:40 am

   Good to see this Canterbury coal mine preparing to close.

   Coal Mine Appeals Hard-Hitting Decision on Closure and Remediation | Newsroom

   Hopefully Forest and Bird actually get this government to reverse its proposed exceptions to the wetland protection rules in the 2020 National Environmental Standard (NES-F), which gives generous carveouts for coal mining, dumps, and quarrying.
2. Sacha 2

   18 July 2022 at 7:49 am

   Toby Manhire reviews Andrea Vance's book on the Nats (includes link to 55 min podcast I have not listened to). Sounds a bit more promising than I thought. https://thespinoff.co.nz/books/18-07-2022/we-didnt-know-how-nasty-it-got-andrea-vance-on-nationals-long-nightmare

   As well as dozens of long interviews, she had gotten hold of the motherlode: the internal review of the National Party’s calamitous 2020 election defeat. The document had been closely guarded by then leader Judith Collins; copies were provided only to the nine board members, with MPs required to procede into the caucus room and read in situ, as if it were a precious text at the Turnbull Library. “We do not give our opponents ammunition,” said Collins.

   The review did not mince words. “The genesis of the many issues faced by the party in the last term stem fundamentally from poor leadership and resulting bad culture and actions by bad actors which were often not called out early,” it found, as excerpted in the book that promises “the full story of how the National Party went to war with itself”.

   Wonder which party Board member leaked her the report?
   • Mike the Lefty 2.1

     18 July 2022 at 8:28 am

     Extending the petrol tax cut and half price public transport into next year must be considered a very smart political move by the Labour government and puts the next move onto National.

     Does National support it and by implication support what they have always labelled Labour's "excessive spending" or do they oppose it and show their true colours – the party that cares little for the poor and disadvantaged – and risk alienating the many voters who are thinking hard of returning to National?

     I work in public transport and have had many discussions with people about the half price fares. I always thought that they would continue past August 31 because there is evidence that passenger numbers have increased significantly.
     • Patricia Bremner 2.1.1

       18 July 2022 at 10:20 am

       Mike the Lefty, yes I believe they have laid down the gauntlet for National.

       Do the Nats moan and challenge, or pass the baton to Seymour the mouth?

       Cost savings for those who use regular Public Transport appear to be significant in their budgets, plus this is targeting the correct groups.

       Those with gas guzzlers are having to face a truer cost and the growing uptick in EVs perhaps is partly driven by the realisation that the change is supported and personally cost efficient.

       National have looked to have had a perceived "Decent Leader" bounce, which is dropping away as people listen closely to the clumsy slogans watch the inept behaviour, and take note of positions on key issues and negative comments made.

       The offered tax cuts have had their impact and sound hollow and stale, as experience has shown they are not a total answer as they do not take care of two large issues.

       In a talk, their Leader said "everyone was over covid" and I then wondered whether he believed in climate change. The advertising about him says he takes it seriously. Where is the proof of that? When has he commented on actual problems? Like the recent flooding?

       I have heard him say he thought people "were over this Government" quoting early polls.. Well the people in his circles may be, and he has made plain he thinks he can do things better. The hubris is amazing. Those few remaining nasties and a crop of newbies will do better? Tui!!.

       Andrea Vance's Book will no doubt confirm some events and attitudes. It is plain they are not considering those who take Public Transport.
   • Scotty 2.2

     18 July 2022 at 10:22 am

     Steve Braunias provides an entertaining take on Vance's book. Blue Blood

     http://www.newsroom.co.nz/national-the-autopsy
     • Robert Guyton 2.2.1

       18 July 2022 at 10:57 am

       Braunias' take on Blue Blood is very good. If I found the book lying somewhere, I'd thumb through it 🙂
     • AB 2.2.2

       18 July 2022 at 12:40 pm

       Exquisite review from Braunias. Good reviews from real writers are sometimes a lot better than the thing being reviewed. That's the case here.
     • Sacha 2.2.3

       18 July 2022 at 2:18 pm

       I was just coming back to add that. He is a far sharper writer than she will ever be.

       The exercises and abuses of power in Blue Blood are generally very petty although Collins, true to form, contrived to make everyone around her miserable. It’s a book of unhappiness. No one achieves greatness. No one maintains any dignity.

       Few had any to begin with; Hamilton East MP David Bennett appears throughout the book as a low-hanging villain, punished by Key for "alleged late-night antics in the Beehive's third-floor bar", dismissed by Chris Finlayson as a moron, and caught replying to a constituent who urged the party to roll Bridges, "Yeah, working on it."

       Aides and sources and staffers and even people with names toil in the background, maddened by their masters. There scuttles Matthew Hooton, Muller's blundering amanuensis; there sighs Janet Wilson, who went to work for Collins, and foolishly offered the very thing Collins has always loathed: sound advice. All the while, the vultures in the Press Gallery keep their beady little eyes on the thing they want most in life: scalps.

       You can lead a journalist to a longer deadline but you can't make them think.
     • Drowsy M. Kram 2.2.4

       18 July 2022 at 2:37 pm

       Wonderful review – thanks Scotty.

       But where is the wider scrutiny of why it was that a great many people in the National Party acted so ruinously, so grubbily, and, more than anything else, so selfishly? Was it the culture, was it the ideology? Was it the lack of anything resembling culture and ideology? Vance reports what happened, and how it happened. Why it happened is an open question.
   • Sacha 2.3

     18 July 2022 at 4:26 pm

     Tova finds a way to make the book about Labour: https://www.todayfm.co.nz/home/opinion/2022/07/this-book-about-national-shows-how-bad-things-can-getlabour-should-read-it.html
3. Jenny how to get there 3

   18 July 2022 at 9:13 am

   Is it too late to stop climate change?

   The future is clear, extreme heat, no water.

   And we have a new term for it.

   "….stealth crisis"

   despite universal pleas for the public to stay safe from health chiefs, not to travel and stay indoors, the Deputy Prime Minister Dominic Raab, decided to tell the public to “enjoy the sunshine” on Sky News.

   His comments were blasted on social media with one saying: “Dominic Raab…brushing off the impending record breaking, earth burning temperatures and saying people should ‘enjoy the sunshine’. Heaven help us all!”

   ….demand had surged from 209 million gallons a day to 242 million gallons, due to the hot weather…..

   …..Thames Water said they were monitoring the situation all the time but said if they did not see "around or above average rainfall" in the coming months it may result in water restrictions.

   Two thousand people in east Kent were left with no water or low pressure over the weekend….

   https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk-heatwave-brits-told-stay-27504479#source=push

   If you haven't got air conditioning at home. Get it.
   • pat 3.1

     18 July 2022 at 10:52 am

     "If you haven't got air conditioning at home. Get it."

     Therein lies the problem
     • Robert Guyton 3.1.1

       18 July 2022 at 11:00 am

       Indeed.

       If you have the space, a clay soil and the will, dig a little cave. When the temperature gets too high, crouch in it 🙂
       • Jenny how to get there 3.1.1.1

         18 July 2022 at 11:25 am

         If you have the space, a clay soil and the will, dig a little cave. When the temperature gets too high, crouch right over, and kiss your arse goodbye.

         🙂
         • Robert Guyton 3.1.1.1.1

           18 July 2022 at 11:30 am

           Never.

           Give.

           Up.
           • Jenny how to get there 3.1.1.1.1.1

             18 July 2022 at 11:54 am

             I will never give up.

             No surrender

             If your solution, for those who can't afford air conditioning, is to dig a hole in the mud to crawl into. I fear that you have.
             • pat …

               18 July 2022 at 11:58 am

               The planet cant afford the air conditioning
               • Jenny how to get there …

                 18 July 2022 at 1:09 pm

                 I know.

                 Not without completely decarbonising our supply chain, transport and energy systems, and agriculture, at least.
                 • pat …

                   18 July 2022 at 1:17 pm

                   'Rational' behaviour producing the outcome we seek to avoid….its complicated (reductionism helps unscramble it)…yet another paradox
               • Graeme …

                 18 July 2022 at 2:06 pm

                 Ironically air conditioning could also be the thing that turns public sentiment to doing something about climate change. On the day when a lot of people somewhere can't survive (as in die) without air conditioning, and the power supply fails. If this happens in a city it will be tragic, and messy.

                 However I suspect that the outcome will be a bigger power supply…
                 • pat …

                   18 July 2022 at 2:21 pm

                   and our near neighbour a likely candidate
                   • Graeme …

                     18 July 2022 at 3:13 pm

                     Mostly too dry, probably wouldn't get humid enough. And most of the tropics, while humid, doesn't quite get hot enough for the Wet Bulb to go over 35º. I'd pick the USA Midwest, Chicago came close in 1995
                   • pat …

                     18 July 2022 at 3:36 pm

                     https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/comments/5td0kc/badgerys_creek_in_western_sydney_had_a_wetbulb/

                     Wouldnt rule it out
             • Robert Guyton …

               18 July 2022 at 4:36 pm

               Not given up. Too busy digging.
               • Jenny how to get there …

                 18 July 2022 at 11:24 pm

                 Robert Guyton…

                 18 July 2022 at 4:36 pm

                 Not given up. Too busy digging.

                 Keep digging.

                 Not too stupid an idea. It has been surmised that the reason mammals survived the Chixulub impactor, while non-avian dinosaurs did not, is because the small mammals of the time were burrowers. And also nocturnal, the only time they came above ground was at night.

                 This could be the future of humanity in the humid tropical zones where day time temperatures above ground might regularly go above 35C wet bulb temperature.
           • Stuart Munro 3.1.1.1.1.2

             18 July 2022 at 4:13 pm

             NZ will be well placed to farm camels. Nile perch for the aquaculture industry. Oz should move into spice – Shai Hulud will love the outback.
     • Ad 3.1.2

       18 July 2022 at 3:21 pm

       It's a government requirement on all rental properties.

       Safe and warm people.
       • pat 3.1.2.1

         18 July 2022 at 3:42 pm

         Technically not….heating is a requirement as is ventilation….practically that usually means a heat pump which can also operate as an air conditioner, but air conditioning is not required per se.
         • Ad 3.1.2.1.1

           18 July 2022 at 4:24 pm

           Have you been through the HNZ standard rental agreement recently?

           All the requirements are there in black and white. More than one heater, specify age of heat pump, materials and age of insulation on ceiling, wall and floor, vent extractors, multiple other detailed requirements. You can't make a heat pump go without power.

           btw my rentals all have heat pumps, full wrap insulation, full double glazed, and HVAC, just to keep it a crispy.
           • pat 3.1.2.1.1.1

             18 July 2022 at 4:32 pm

             Thats got little to do with air conditioners.
             • Ad …

               18 July 2022 at 4:55 pm

               Actually there's in practicality very little difference.

               Heat Pumps vs Air Conditioners | Compare Heat Pump vs AC (carrier.com)
             • Populuxe1 …

               18 July 2022 at 5:05 pm

               You know you can set them to cool the air, yeah?
               • pat …

                 18 July 2022 at 5:13 pm

                 have you read the thread?…all well and truely covered, and of course heat pumps are not the only acceptable heating solution to meet HHS but most pertinent of all, air conditioning is NOT required.
                 • Poission …

                   18 July 2022 at 5:39 pm

                   Have a look at the heating days/vs cooling days across sites in NZ.

                   Some such as Invercargill have 2 cooling days vs 160 heating days.Canterbury towns have the largest temperature range (and the lowest humidity)

                   https://www.degreedays.net/

                   Enter weather station number for your location.
                   • pat …

                     18 July 2022 at 6:10 pm

                     Invercargill?….no surprises there however i will note that those that have heat pumps that I know appear to have them running permanently ..summer ,winter, no matter the conditions. I happily admit I hate them with a passion but that is not the basis of my argument….rather than promoting the use of energy and consumer products (esp imported) we should be seeking to reduce energy consumption.
                   • Poission …

                     18 July 2022 at 6:36 pm

                     I only use them at night ( Just turned on as air t was 19.5c today) in winter,The house is designed so winter sun enters house,tiled conservatory,open doors and heat flows and surfeit protects from direct summer heat.During summer I open windows on south side (shaded) and heat moves to cool zone.

                     I agree we should be seeking to decrease energy consumption,it is known for example that temperature decreases in large urban centres over the weekends and holidays (Tokyo over 1c) mostly due to AC etc (urban centres also cool overnight more slowly then rural due to slow radiative cooling)

                     https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/11/7/074003
                   • pat …

                     18 July 2022 at 7:06 pm

                     Air temp was about that here too….unfortunately at around 100kph
                   • Poission …

                     18 July 2022 at 7:17 pm

                     Easterly at the coast,little wind
                 • Populuxe1 …

                   19 July 2022 at 1:22 am

                   You've obviously never experienced a 30 degree Canterbury summer day
                   • pat …

                     19 July 2022 at 6:07 pm

                     Obviously…

                     …you have no idea what you speak of.
   • weka 3.2

     18 July 2022 at 12:14 pm

     Here's how not to freak out Jenny.

     1. we waste a lot of water. So water restrictions at this point are probably manageable (haven't looked at the details).

     2. going forward, there is a range of tech we don't use currently in the mainstream that conserves water. We can integrate that.

     3. air conditioning is one of the drivers of climate change. See https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/aug/29/the-air-conditioning-trap-how-cold-air-is-heating-the-world

     4. there is a hierarchy of sustainability that says start with passive tech before looking at high tech. Many cultures have developed ways of living in hot climates before industrialisation, we can learn from them.

     5. the heatwave in the UK is a civil emergency, treat it as such rather than an inconvenience that can be solved by air con. Change plans, stay at home if possible and if this is going to be cool enough. Give portable air con to the people that really need it. Use passive tech to cool the body.

     6. behaviour change is as important as tech solutions.

     7. going forward, plant trees, many many trees, create microclimates in all areas where humans live. Think about wildlife too. Restore ecologies. Plants keep local environments cooler, think like a forest. This needs some careful planning around other extreme weather events, so employ whole systems thinkers to do this.
     • Jenny how to get there 3.2.1

       18 July 2022 at 1:04 pm

       weka

       18 July 2022 at 12:14 pm

       Here's how not to freak out Jenny…..

       We're way past all that.

       I have been freaking out about this for more than 2 decades.

       We need to urgently decarbonise now.
       • weka 3.2.1.1

         18 July 2022 at 1:26 pm

         Sweet. Please stop advocating for an increase in air con.

         people need to know how to change, not just that change is necessary
         • Sabine 3.2.1.1.1

           18 July 2022 at 2:52 pm

           consider that the government insists in air con for heating in their warmer home policies. At least were feasable.

           What sort of heating do you think in NZ would work on both islands that does conserve on energy and does not fuck up the environment?
           • weka 3.2.1.1.1.1

             18 July 2022 at 4:46 pm

             what is needed in Southland and Otago is different from Auckland or Wellington. Rural vs urban and so on. Depends on the house, how sunny or shady, the weather over the year etc. There's no one size fits all.

             I consider heat pumps fairly problematic in parts of Otago and Southland (and other places) because if there is a power outage, eg in a big storm in winter, then people have no way to keep themselves warm. I would never live without a wood burner. But we should be mandating (lol that word) very high efficiency wood stoves like those used in Europe, to lessen the amount of firewood burned and to protect air quality. We should also be planting firewood and managing that forestry sustainably. We should also be mandating grid tied solar. Multiple solutions and designed for local conditions and situations are best for resiliency eg solar power, solar hot water, a wood burner and mains power.

             Air con for cooling can be replaced by passive cooling techniques, in builds and retrofitted. We should be planning this now (along with all the other things)
             • Ad …

               18 July 2022 at 5:06 pm

               All the new builds are regulated by region already, and are heading to get stronger.

               Consultation document – Building Code update 2021 (mbie.govt.nz)

               In rural towns you combine wood fire air pollution with car pollution and you get deaths by the thousands. The regulations have gone up and up but

               Air pollution: Invercargill revealed as deadliest centre – study | RNZ News

               In Otago and Southland a new build with two heatpumps and underfloor heating is a minimum. Few are putting in chimneys for burners.
               • weka …

                 18 July 2022 at 5:18 pm

                 Did you miss this bit in my comment?

                 But we should be mandating (lol that word) very high efficiency wood stoves like those used in Europe, to lessen the amount of firewood burned and to protect air quality.

                 Invercargill isn't a rural town, it's a city, and has its own set of problems to resolve.
                 • Ad …

                   18 July 2022 at 5:45 pm

                   They have re-regulated wood burning stoves across Canterbury and Otago and Southland for quite a while, and the air pollution is still killing people.

                   Home heating measures in my clean air zone | Environment Canterbury (ecan.govt.nz)

                   Approved heating appliances | Otago Regional Council (orc.govt.nz)

                   Southland wood burner ban coming into effect | RNZ News

                   However one defines a city, burning wood for heat in Canterbury, Otago or Southland isn't good for you and the bans on different burners have increased steadily since 2015. Sure, the romance has gone, but it's pretty much like trying to make a clean combustion engine.
                   • weka …

                     18 July 2022 at 5:47 pm

                     NZ doesn't routinely use high efficiency woodburners. We're just not very good at this yet.
                   • Ad …

                     18 July 2022 at 5:57 pm

                     The car industry reacts the same way.
                   • weka …

                     18 July 2022 at 6:26 pm

                     space heating with wood can be carbon neutral. ICE cars can't. You seem to not be aware what a high efficiency wood stove is.

                     What's the plan for people in Te Anau if the big one hits mid winter and there's no power for a month? Mass evacuation? Or a major snow storm in Central Otago that takes out power for a week? Do you think these things won't happen? We might get lucky and the Alpine Fault shifts in summer I guess. But the big storms and power losses are in our future. And much more frequent, which is the kicker. We think we can just fix everything, but as events get more frequent this becomes harder economically and technically (and it's likely we will experience materials shortages as well).
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     18 July 2022 at 7:33 pm

                     Is it the home-fires killing people in these cities … or the diesel fuelled trucks driving through the city wot dun it?
           • Robert Guyton 3.2.1.1.1.2

             18 July 2022 at 5:26 pm

             Wooly jumpers.
             • Sacha …

               18 July 2022 at 5:57 pm

               wooly mammoths, heat a village
               • Robert Guyton …

                 18 July 2022 at 7:36 pm

                 The poor elephant-seal hunters of the sub-Antarctic islands made their homes from driftwood and heated them by burning great slabs of elephant-seal blubber in their fire-places.

                 Let's hope it doesn't descend to that!
         • Jenny how to get there 3.2.1.1.2

           19 July 2022 at 10:56 am

           The change that is necessary is for the government to stop issuing permits for coal mining on Crown land in Huntly.

           The change that is necessary is for the government to stop importing coal from Indonesia.

           The change that is necessary is for the government to switch funding for more motorways into public transport.

           The government need to ban intensive dairying conversions on traditional cropping lands unsuitable for it that lead to massive nitrate pollution of our waterways as well as increase our carbon emissions.

           The government need to stop subsidising carbon intensive industries like Air New Zealand to the tune of $billion and start encouraging surface travel instead.

           Until our leaders can stop being hypocrites, the only option for the rest of us is to cope with the symptoms the best we can.
           • weka 3.2.1.1.2.1

             19 July 2022 at 11:14 am

             Until our leaders can stop being hypocrites, the only option for the rest of us is to cope with the symptoms the best we can.

             That's utterly defeatist, attitudinally and strategically. If we wait for governments we will lose. Governments and other leaders are people like us. Further, governments are dependent upon voters in short term cycles. If NZ doesn't want radical change, Labour can't force that.

             Your position also strikes me as a cop out. Oh, we can't do anything until the government does. Bollocks. We can all do things now, all of us. Many things. The choices on what to do are better now than they used to be. No way am I going to wring my hands and give up on action just because Labour are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
     • Cricklewood 3.2.2

       18 July 2022 at 2:13 pm

       There is a lot we can do to ease the worst of the effects especially if a we look towards how people adapted to hot climates before the advent of air con. For example the limewashed white homes in Greece. A number of years ago I read a paper advocating that we look to paint / use reflective colors on the rooves in densely populated areas as way of reducing the heat island effect. That's something we should be moving towards, Likewise we should be further reducing the amount of paved surface around housing and cities (I count fake lawn as paved) in exchange for more landscaped space to help reduce the heat island effect. No doubt we could also design with the prevailing winds in mind to maximise opportunties for ventilation.
       • Molly 3.2.2.1

         18 July 2022 at 2:43 pm

         Ventilation design doesn't need to utilise prevailing winds.

         Design can use glazing and thermal mass to create hot air, as that air rises and releases through higher openings, it can pull air from vents lower down on the cooler side of the house.

         A friend built a house in Spain using this passive method:

         https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trombe_wall

         Thermal mass building, and solar design can also reduce temperature fluctuations.
         • Sabine 3.2.2.1.1

           18 July 2022 at 2:58 pm

           Again, we are several tens of thousands of homes short. what sort of heating could be used in NZ to allow to build affordable which already is something that is barely happening.

           The coldest i lived through was – 33 in Germany 1986 (my windows were frozen shut as were the doors of the s-bahn and buses 🙂 and -25 in France in 95 (i learned how to chop firewood real fast!) the warmest somewhere around 40+ in the South of France IN 2003 (which was worse then the cold). So houses build with cold in mind and central gas heating in Germany, and River Stone build houses with huge fire places in France. Insulation alone is never going to fix it alone, and in order to be energy efficient you would have to replace most housing the world over. And i can not see that happening.

           In NZ we can not even include planting to provide shade barriers in new settlements. These settlements like in OZ will be future ovens in which without air con no one will actually be able to live. Concreted over, no shade belts, and air cons blowing out hot heat into the already super hot outside.

           https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/435088/parts-of-sydney-may-be-too-hot-to-live-in-within-decades
           • weka 3.2.2.1.1.1

             18 July 2022 at 5:22 pm

             some problems are easier to solve than others. It's possible to retrofit many houses in NZ to make them warmer and more energy efficient. Yes, space heating is still needed.

             Much of the problems you name are political and social not technological.
4. Poission 4

   18 July 2022 at 10:53 am

   Inflation at 7.3 percent (32 year high).

   https://www.stats.govt.nz/news/annual-inflation-at-7-3-percent-32-year-high/
   • pat 4.1

     18 July 2022 at 11:00 am

     higher end….RBNZ brow will be furrowed
     • Poission 4.1.1

       18 July 2022 at 11:16 am

       The fuel and pt subsidy contributed around -.5%,which would extend for the rest of the year. Council Rates rise season is coming in the next 1/4,which affects both home owners and SME more,that was deemed problematic by the RBNZ .

       In this release we get new housing building costs of 18%,which will also affect the RBNZ policy statement,this needs to be wacked to ensure stability and confidence in the construction industry.

       Overall it seems that cost control is evident,as tradeable inflation is not that high considering the nz$ has depreciated 15% y on y.

       Highest rate since 1990 a whole generation not prepared for price shocks,financial risks, also the most fragile generations
       • pat 4.1.1.1

         18 July 2022 at 11:22 am

         i suspect there will be significant lag in tradeable numbers, although commodities are falling considerably there will be a premium for the volatility and I expect our dollar will continue its downward trajectory….also Chinas output looks to be at serious risk.

         Interesting times?
         • Poission 4.1.1.1.1

           18 July 2022 at 11:49 am

           We have 2 good defensive capabilities.

           First our electricity prices are not so sensitive to overseas commodity prices.The low cost of electricity over the last 1/4 for large users has been at the bottom of ranges for the last 2 years.

           Second we have a good ability to produce fresh low cost food staples,which despite handwaving are readily available.
           • pat 4.1.1.1.1.1

             18 July 2022 at 11:53 am

             That is true…countered by the fact we import just about everything else, even a surprising amount of food.

             We shouldnt starve or freeze…..fingers crossed.
             • Robert Guyton …

               18 July 2022 at 7:37 pm

               At this juncture, it would be wise to grow more vegetables nearby to our populated areas, yes?
               • pat …

                 18 July 2022 at 7:42 pm

                 probably…though I expect we already do, those that we can.
                 • Robert Guyton …

                   18 July 2022 at 7:55 pm

                   Maybe I meant, we should grow more vegetables for our populated areas.

                   Prepare for trouble. Get dedicated crops into the ground.

                   This is not a drill (imo).
                   • pat …

                     18 July 2022 at 8:07 pm

                     I am just reading about it now…..my sense is we have been but that may be changing….and as to timing, I dont possess a crystal ball, so its never too soon.
                   • pat …

                     18 July 2022 at 9:30 pm

                     Not as good as I had thought from the sounds of it…

                     https://www.hortnz.co.nz/assets/Environment/National-Env-Policy/JR-Reference-Documents-/KPMG-2017-NZ-domestic-vegeable-production-.pdf

                     Productive land loss, population growth and lack of strategy before we even consider climate change….

                     and then theres the plankton
           • Belladonna 4.1.1.1.1.2

             18 July 2022 at 11:59 am

             We may have the capacity to produce fresh low cost food staples – but that's not the reality that consumers are seeing. Fresh food prices (including locally grown/produced food) are continuing their upwards spiral.

             Partly because of increased export demand/prices (if Fonterra can sell their butter for $7 kilo overseas, why would they sell it for $5 in NZ). And partly because of increased production costs (diesel for deliveries is only one). And partly because of weather (flooding, drought, etc.).
             • Poission …

               18 July 2022 at 12:12 pm

               I buy fruit and veges from the local market gardens,I buy seasonal gluts,where most are around $1 -2 kilo at present,say spuds ,onions,pumpkin and kumara.Apples 1$ and kiwifruit $2 are around best value at the moment and I supplement from my deep freeze with berries ( pyo) and capsicums and courgettes brought during the autumn price lows.

               Mince at my local butcher is still under 10$ a kilo,dairy which is tradeable is subject to o/s pricing,but Milk in canterbury is still cheap.
               • Belladonna …

                 18 July 2022 at 4:15 pm

                 Pretty different living in Auckland – have not seen any veges at $1-2/kg. Unless you're rural – there are no real farmer's markets – the market prices for fruit and veges are pretty comparable with the greengrocers (though may be slightly cheaper than the supermarkets). Of course, you have to get to the not-really-a-farmers-market. A separate trip probably wipes out whatever gains you might have made.

                 I buy my veges from the local Chinese food market. The price is probably pretty similar, but the quality and choice are better than the supermarket.

                 Butcher prices are pretty much equivalent with supermarkets at best. They're often more expensive – as they're pretty niche – appealing to the conscious consumer. Our Mad Butcher (long gone) is much mourned & I don't know if the remnants of the chain offer the original pricing benefits.

                 Dairy is the same price wherever you shop (generally slightly cheaper at Pak n Save – especially if you look out for the specials)

                 I too, use my freezer (also preserving for tomato passata and jams). But am conscious that being able to stock up when ingredients are 'cheap' is a privilege not everyone shares.

                 BTW – have had no success in freezing courgettes – they just go mushy – how do you do it?
             • Robert Guyton …

               18 July 2022 at 7:52 pm

               "if Fonterra can sell their butter for $7 kilo overseas, why would they sell it for $5 in NZ".

               Because the rely entirely upon NZ for every cent they make?

               Because they trade on being "NZ"

               Because they have a responsibility to support the country that supports them?

               Because they are exporting New Zealand produce??

               Yes?

               No??
               • Belladonna …

                 18 July 2022 at 8:02 pm

                 If you want it to happen, you're going to have to legislate (or provide some form of economic incentive). Businesses are in business to make money. They don't make money by selling at a discount.

                 I'm not sure how Fonterra is relying on me for every cent it makes. If you're arguing that they are benefiting from the NZ environment, then look at making them pay for that – but, be aware that the price of the end product will go up.

                 Virtually every exporter trades on being "NZ" – and none of them sell their product at cut price in NZ. NZ wine, for example, is a good deal cheaper in London than it is in my local supermarket.
                 • In Vino …

                   18 July 2022 at 8:31 pm

                   Belladonna – when businesses are in business to make a profit but do so with no concern for the society that supports them, and indulge in anti-social profit-gouging, they thoroughly deserve to be called out as public enemies.

                   Unfortunately, the media are now profit-driven, and are careful not to displease the marketers who run them (- even our 'state-owned' media are SOEs and now have bloody marketers as CEO..)

                   It appears to me that we have no hope of a sane system.
     • alwyn 4.1.2

       18 July 2022 at 11:16 am

       I can see Grant and Adrian asking in unison.

       "Hey Clint! Is this good or bad?"
       • pat 4.1.2.1

         18 July 2022 at 11:32 am

         Grant and Adrian dont need Clint to tell them that grass is green.
     • pat 4.1.3

       18 July 2022 at 11:51 am

       Very furrowed

       https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU2207/S00254/reserve-bank-announces-new-standing-repurchase-facility.htm
       • Nic the NZer 4.1.3.1

         18 July 2022 at 5:56 pm

         Is this the latest plan for dealing with inflation? A new kind of savings account for banks. Thats certain to fix inflation.
         • pat 4.1.3.1.1

           18 July 2022 at 6:21 pm

           An indication of the level of concern I'd suggest
   • Incognito 4.2

     18 July 2022 at 11:14 am

     Unfortunately, this might be another nail tapped into the Government’s coffin so big that even John Key could drive it in, after a few go’s.

     https://thestandard.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/key-hammer-nail.mov
     • Poission 4.2.1

       18 July 2022 at 11:27 am

       I think those building skills,may be useful for when the new housing sector corrects (as it should) and John and Max get exposed to full service from the Chow Bros.
       • Graeme 4.2.1.1

         18 July 2022 at 12:26 pm

         There's also Gibbston Valley, varying stories about the Key's level of involvement but JK was very much the face of it at launch. Marketing is by Hamish Walker.

         It's just down the road and unfortunately it's not Millbrook. Windy, cold and confined. I'd put it as a very likely candidate for a tits up with severely burnt contractors and buyers.
         • Poission 4.2.1.1.1

           18 July 2022 at 12:55 pm

           Is roading an issue there?
           • Graeme 4.2.1.1.1.1

             18 July 2022 at 1:24 pm

             Serious roading works getting a safe entry off the State Highway into the development, they've been working on that for 6 months. Then there's all the development infrastructure and golf course. Lot of capital expenditure before they get any settlements. And got a long way to go before it looks like somewhere to build, just a fancy intersection under construction and a lot of gear and piles of dirt at present. But they can't do much until they've got an access.

             Quite a few re-sales turning up already on TradeMe too.
             • Poission …

               18 July 2022 at 1:52 pm

               There will be a large blowout on the infrastructure earthworks,wait to they get an updated pricing on services.
               • Graeme …

                 18 July 2022 at 2:14 pm

                 Yeah, lots of projects around here have wound back until costs stabilise, even some of the Government funded Covid recovery projects.

                 It's a bit of a local sport this time every cycle to pick the projects that are going go tits up. Really a survival strategy, as if you get caught up in one, there's several each cycle and they're usually big, you're in for a change in circumstances.
                 • Ad …

                   18 July 2022 at 3:32 pm

                   What do you think of the QLDC joint venture Lakeview?

                   10 hectares is a lot even for Queenstown.

                   Lakeview Development (qldc.govt.nz)
                   • Graeme …

                     18 July 2022 at 4:57 pm

                     Funny you ask about that, we've been looking at that a lot lately as they've picked up our old premises as a sales office. Landlord will be happy, suspect she's picked up the sales contract / listing as well.

                     My view is that it's on the right track and will find a very receptive market. I thought the form of it was quite modest and fits well There have been lots of proposals, some lower and greater footprint, others quite tall with lots of space, along with some very high density ideas. Hopefully it will be done professionally and the project can keep to it's aims

                     It's not really that ideal for permanent or family living, but a lot of people who come here don't want that, they want to be here for 6 months – 2 years and partake of what the place offers, and the CBD with it's dining and entertainment is very much part of that. Also appeal to the cribbie market in Sydney and Melbourne.

                     This medium residence tenure is a big part of the town, and has been for ever. Sometimes totally intentional, come here for a year or so with no intention of settling long term, sometimes a bit forced. Both groups spend more in the community than they earn, which is what makes the place go 'round.

                     It's been rather controversial as it's on the old camping ground, so is a bit triggering to those that want to go back to the 70's and pull up in the Holden or Chrysler and have a picnic, but in reality is catering to the 2022 version of the same demographic.

                     There's a lot of under capitalised private land around it too, so it will set a tone for future development up there.

                     Potential downside is what that amount of residential in Tāhuna will do to the traffic, but they will live there, most of our traffic issues are from people who don't live in Tāhuna driving in to have dinner and party. Taumata residents can walk in, but might need a taxi home, it's a bit of a hike with the wobbly boot…
                   • Ad …

                     18 July 2022 at 5:12 pm

                     Good to hear the perspective thankyou Graeme.
                   • Sacha …

                     18 July 2022 at 5:55 pm

                     catering to the 2022 version of the same demographic

                     AirBNB then?
                   • Graeme …

                     18 July 2022 at 10:12 pm

                     catering to the 2022 version of the same demographic

                     AirBNB then?

                     The people who built the old cribs at Lakeview in the 40's and 50's were farmers and business people form Southland and Otago. They would have been the 1% of their little world south of the Waitaki.

                     Over time others have come in, initially from the north, and built larger and more opulent properties, elsewhere in Whaktipu, far surpassing the financial abilities of the descendants of the original Lakeview cribbies, although there's some seriously well set up retired Southland Farmers around the place.

                     Now we will have another cohort of people coming in and buying holiday houses (cribs) on the same piece of land who will partake in the energy of Whakatipu in the same way as the cribbies of the 50's, and people have for 800 years.
                 • Robert Guyton …

                   18 July 2022 at 7:41 pm

                   How's the food-security issue looking for Q-town, Graeme?

                   An Alpine shake, a severance of the supply-lines from the north?

                   All rosey?
                   • Graeme …

                     18 July 2022 at 9:32 pm

                     Pretty much the same as Southland Robert. Pretty much everything comes by road from the north there too.

                     Considerably bigger issue is electricity, only one line in, and through some tricky geology. That could fuck up our day with a lot less than the Alpine Fault, there's several a lot closer. At least food demand will reduce somewhat if one of the pylons falls off the hill. In the event you should be prepared for refugees, there's less than 5% local generation so life in Whakatipu will get hard as we loose the ability to provide and dispose of our water.

                     Fortunately it's owned by Transpower, who put a lot of effort into maintenance, rather than Aurora who've got a stadium to pay for. A fair lodge of our ORC rates go to that as well.

                     If anyone was of a mind to monkey wrench the place that powerline would be a good place to start.

                     A good shake along Nevis – Cardrona could require some quick decision making at SDC too, if something comes down in kawarau Gorge and sends Whakatipu Wai Maori back down the Mataura. Granted there would be some rapid scuttling around here as most decamp to higher ground. More refugees for Murihiku
         • mary_a 4.2.1.1.2

           18 July 2022 at 1:39 pm

           Graeme (4.2.1.1) – apologies if this post is repeated, but I started it and it disappeared.

           If the new Gibbston Valley elite subdivision/resort is on the side of the road I'm thinking it's being established, driving from Cromwell to Queenstown and back again it appears to me, there is very little sunshine if any, during the cold winter months. Even if I had the money to buy there (which I don't), it's not a place I'd want to live for that reason alone. Besides, I don't think I'd like the neighbours
           • Graeme 4.2.1.1.2.1

             18 July 2022 at 1:48 pm

             Like I said, it aint Millbrook
5. Adrian 5

   18 July 2022 at 12:47 pm

   I paid $2.57 litre for diesel today, lowest for months. My take is high fuel prices were cynical price gouging powered by Capitalism/ Businesses main mantra.. “ Never waste a good crisis “. Bastards.
   • arkie 5.1

     18 July 2022 at 1:10 pm

     Ben Van Beurden, chief executive of Shell, said that the company’s performance “has been helped by the macro and the macro has been impacted by the war in Ukraine”. He added that this situation means “we do have a better company, we do have a better performance, and yes indeed our shareholders will benefit from that as well”.

     Murray Auchincloss, BP’s chief financial officer, said in February: “Certainly, it’s possible that we’re getting more cash than we know what to do with.”

     Climate campaigners, however, have called the profits “obscene” and argued that the provision of fossil fuels would not be so lavishly rewarding if governments had acted properly to confront the escalating climate crisis.

     “The greed of these companies is staggering,” said Lori Lodes, executive director of Climate Power, an advocacy group. “We’ve heard their executives bragging about how much the agony of inflation and the tragedy of the war in Ukraine has allowed them to raise prices. These profits are going right into their pockets.”

     https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/may/13/oil-gas-producers-first-quarter-2022-profits

     You're not wrong
     • Stephen D 5.1.1

       18 July 2022 at 2:43 pm

       Time for a Windfall Tax.
   • Herodotus 5.2

     18 July 2022 at 3:51 pm

     You are fortunate. Where I live in Auckland diesel is still over $3/l. Why are we still being fleeced?
     We were told in 2017 the government was watching the industry and would action if there was anything untoward. $0.40/l price difference, perhaps the govt should take another look ??
6. Molly 6

   18 July 2022 at 2:16 pm

   Another mall shooting in the US.

   Perhaps not as devastating as intended because a 20yr old pulled out a pistol and shot the gunman.

   https://www.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2022/07/17/greenwood-park-mall-shooting-indianapolis/65375408007/

   When advocating for gun reform, there will have to be considered reasonable responses to those that point out the reduction in harm because someone else had a weapon.
   • Sacha 6.1

     18 July 2022 at 2:21 pm

     the reduction in harm because someone else had a weapon

     Not the case in any previous situations I have seen reported. Well done finding an exception.
     • Molly 6.1.1

       18 July 2022 at 2:34 pm

       It just happened a couple of hours ago.

       The public conversation on gun reform is happening now.

       If you don't think being able to strategise to come up with a reasonable response to an inevitable pushback is worthwhile, well I'm sure you have some other convincing argument in mind…
       • Sacha 6.1.1.1

         18 July 2022 at 2:36 pm

         A reasonable response would be: Not the case in any previous situations I have seen reported.
         • Molly 6.1.1.1.1

           18 July 2022 at 2:47 pm

           If you are head nodding with your friends, then yes.

           If you are trying to persuade others, then you might need more.
         • Belladonna 6.1.1.1.2

           18 July 2022 at 4:36 pm

           The occasions when this occurs tend to be less well reported by the media – perhaps because the bloodbath is reduced (if it bleeds, it leads, is well established as a MSM mantra).

           A random assortment of other examples:

           https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/churchs-head-of-security-says-he-killed-an-evil-not-a-human-in-taking-down-gunman/2283824/

           https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/crime/2017/11/25/police-discuss-rockledge-homicide-apprehension-gunman/894502001/

           https://nypost.com/2017/11/06/sharpshooting-plumber-fired-shot-that-took-down-texas-church-gunman/

           https://www.wowktv.com/news/local/charleston-police-shooting-victim-pulled-assault-rifle-on-party/

           This is one where the gunman was tackled, rather than shot

           https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-05-15/multiple-people-shot-at-church-in-laguna-woods-o-c-sheriff-says
         • Sacha 6.1.1.1.3

           18 July 2022 at 4:46 pm

           That's great. Quite a few others in recent years.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States#List_of_mass_shootings_(21st_century)
           • Belladonna 6.1.1.1.3.1

             18 July 2022 at 7:30 pm

             Look, I'm not arguing that there are more of them, or that it's a desirable outcome – but supporting Molly in pointing out that 'I've never seen any reported' is not a winning strategy in convincing anyone.

             And, also, that if the shooter is shot before he goes ahead and kills large numbers of people, it's never going to be listed as a mass shooting.
             • Sacha …

               18 July 2022 at 7:34 pm

               True. Imagine if the shooter found it harder to get a gun in the first place..
               • Belladonna …

                 18 July 2022 at 7:42 pm

                 Pretty difficult to imagine in Auckland ATM.

                 https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/two-dead-after-shooting-in-aucklands-glendene/4UEBIAPN3TCGERVCWOWMHKKGOU/
   • Shanreagh 6.2

     18 July 2022 at 5:01 pm

     I know what you are saying Molly. Those who mount this argument in favour of not doing away with open gun ownership have not really thought it through.

     There is no mana in shooting someone. It is never ever a good thing. This is why we have specific declarations of war that lift the laws about shooting another country's military ie people but dressed in a uniform. This is why we have strong laws against guns and against people randomly killing others. To justify having open slather on carrying guns because one day you might be able to kill someone else who is on a rampage …….

     I might obtain a chest held grenade launcher on the basis that the Russians may leave Ukraine and arrive in south Wellington. Or perhaps I could have used it against the Italian Airforce plane landing in Chch on its way to the Antarctic. This featured in some weird anti vaxxer story.

     In my mind no mana attaches to either shooter, no matter if you are gunman no 1 or gunman no 2. Not sure for GM2 if it could even be called legal self defence.

     It is like when Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey Oswald. I was about 9 when this happened and naively thought it was a good thing that the baddy had been killed. It was then I had the rule of law and civilisations, and who and when can shoot other people explained to me by my father. I’ve never forgotten it.

     However bearing mind the Rittenhouse verdict it is clear that the US has a very different view about guns and killing people.
7. Robert Guyton 7

   18 July 2022 at 4:09 pm

   Feds takeover of Fish & Game complete – regional councils next!

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/whanganui-chronicle/news/opinion-changes-at-fish-game-nz-beneficial-for-everyone/2VQPNARETV4EZOZYPKLMM4I7VA/
   • Stuart Munro 7.1

     18 July 2022 at 5:28 pm

     Yes – it has noticeably gone corporate. Set up to be destroyed from within like Forest & Bird was. License income has never been greater – thus far not reflected in better services.
     • Robert Guyton 7.1.1

       18 July 2022 at 5:34 pm

       The "Dirty Dairying" campaign died in a ditch.
   • Graeme 7.2

     18 July 2022 at 5:35 pm

     I thought regional councils became an arm of the Feds shortly before inception, well in Otago anyway.

     F&G's tenure must be coming close to the end, they've had a pasting in environment Court and it can't be long before DOC starts quietly assuming their responsibilities
     • Robert Guyton 7.2.1

       18 July 2022 at 5:44 pm

       That is true, Graeme, but since then, some woke progressives have infiltrated the regional councils and caused all sorts of problems. They need expunging!
8. Ad 8

   18 July 2022 at 4:19 pm

   Well, you ever want to see a good example of a guy who had done dumb and criminal stuff in his background. then simply devote his remaining short life to doing good for homeless and poor Maori of the Far North, look no further than Ricky Houghton.

   Northland community hero Ricky Houghton dies aged 62 (1news.co.nz)

   He gave it all he got.
9. tc 9

   18 July 2022 at 5:02 pm

   Relax folks former national MP (2 years) dan bidois has the solutions to inflation from his stuff soapbox.

   Shelve 3 waters, health reforms, akl light rail and lotsa eco babble you'd expect to surround the key messages on 3 waters, health and public transport.

   So predictable
10. Shanreagh 10

    18 July 2022 at 5:21 pm

    https://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2022/07/an-unvarnished-straight-talking-working.html

    Chris Trotter ponders on the appeal of foul mouthed people to some voters by looking at Donald Trump and Leo Molloy. The points are well made.

    My big concern is that this type of person has really no clues about dealing with people and I shiver when I think of the mayhem that could take place in ACC. They would need a very strong CEO to keep Molloy in his place. The CE would need to expect that there may be runs at their job as well in an effort to dislodge any mild incumbent so a more 'suitable' one could be installed. No workplace needs this kind of rubbish.

    We had enough of it from late 1980s to 1990s in the PS with its array of odd CEs, following the Rogernomics/Ruthenasia platforms who did not know anything about how the PS worked.
    • Robert Guyton 10.1

      18 July 2022 at 5:42 pm

      Reminds me of Louis Crimp.

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