Open mike 18/08/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 18th, 2022 - 96 comments
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96 comments on “Open mike 18/08/2022 ”

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  1. PsyclingLeft.Always 1
    18 August 2022 at 7:31 am

    Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Michael Wood has confirmed the government will do a full review of the Recognised Seasonal Employer (RSE) scheme early next year.

    It comes after the Equal Employment Opportunities Commissioner witnessed conditions she described as modern day slavery.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018853993/workplace-relations-minister-confirms-govt-review-of-rse-scheme

    I have posted on this…many times on the Standard. Some might find it hard to believe 21st Century NZ could have "modern day slavery" …be sure it exists.

    Brave whistleblowers and true Journalists expose it ! And also be very sure that under a nact govt…it would be modus operandi. (not deemed "slavery" of course)

    Anyway, please support our Brothers and Sisters who are being exploited..by these scum. Stand Up !!

    • Adrian Thornton 1.1
      18 August 2022 at 8:16 am

      I agree, however I see that up to now, the main thrust of the law and pubic anger has been directed at the ‘middle management’ (or lower) so to speak, ie; the people who were directly responsible for organizing the crews etc (the easy low hanging fruit of course) but not one orchard owner or company director has had to face any legal action as far as I know.

      Now if I have known that this exploitation of RSE workers has been wide spread for nearly a decade…then you can be absolutely sure that those same orchard owners, and company directors have been fully aware to what is going on their own properties for the past decade as well….so let’s see if any of them get caught up, face any sort of penalty, or even get called out in this new govt review….don’t hold your breath.

  2. Adrian Thornton 2
    18 August 2022 at 7:45 am

    Here is an example of the self proclaimed defenders of world democracy in action….the very same one that the Liberals class both here in NZ (and on TS) and abroad and their media, offer their support for in terms of it's foreign interventions….

    As Afghan People Boil Grass to Eat, U.S. Refuses to Release $7 Billion of Frozen Afghan Assets

    • Ad 2.1
      18 August 2022 at 11:27 am

      It would be very foolish for the US to hand over substantial money to the Afghan Taleban without enforceable conditions. The Taleban want full untagged control of aid funding, and there ain't no donor going to agree to that.

      Taliban Want to Control Aid Funds, a Red Line for Donors – WSJ

      Prior to the Taleban takeover last year about 80% of Afghanistan's income came from donors.

      Afghanistan earthquake: What foreign aid is getting in? – BBC News

      But with the intensity of hostility from the Taleban rulers, there are now no good analogues for mounting a substantial state-supporting effort in the absence of any UN security. Who in their right mind would even land a plane there let alone fly in to help. Obviously no women can assist now.

      It is also pretty unreasonable to expect any decent UN-led effort would be any more successful than that generated over the last two decades. It is one of the most corrupt, repressive, unstable countries in the world. Nor is there any changing it.

      Good luck to the remaining donors.

      • Adrian Thornton 2.1.1
        18 August 2022 at 2:15 pm

        "It would be very foolish for the US to hand over substantial money to the Afghan Taleban without enforceable conditions. The Taleban want full untagged control of aid funding, and there ain't no donor going to agree to that"…and yet the Western world do exactly that in the Ukraine..recognized without question as the most corrupt country in Europe, but then double standards are standard operating procedure in the US and it's European/Western enablers foreign policy…and by the way it's Taliban.

        70% of Western weapons sent to Ukraine don’t reach troops – CBS
        https://www.rt.com/russia/560419-ukraine-weapons-lost-cbs/

        • Ad 2.1.1.1
          18 August 2022 at 5:36 pm

          Completely irrelevant to whether as you claimed the US ought to be giving finance to the Afghan Taleban. Also, terrible source.

      • aom 2.1.2
        18 August 2022 at 9:19 pm

        "It would be very foolish for the US to hand over substantial money to the Afghan Taleban without enforceable conditions."

        Whose f**king money is it anyway? Sure as s**t doesn't belong to the US.

        Would you really let people starve on the strange notion that it is good for them? Oh yeah – Ad Allbright !!!!

  3. Jenny how to get there 3
    18 August 2022 at 8:57 am

    What to make of this?

    Have fascists and racists become more emboldened?

    Or has this always gone on in this country un-reported?

    More importantly, is it leading up to some sort of atrocity?

    When he listened to the voicemail message, a female voice said: "Scummy little Maori". At 1.86cm and 115kg I thought they had rung the wrong number.

    They called Taonui back – this time on his landline – and said: "Dirty Maori, we know Maori, f**king Maori, dirty Maori" and hung up again….

    …..He knows aspects of his work – he was on Race Relations Conciliator Meng Foon's National Anti-Racism task force – have made him a target.

    He was followed home last year. When he stopped in his driveway, the driver of the other vehicle got out and said: "It's good to know where you live, you black bastard."

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/maori-academic-dr-rawiri-taonui-gets-widespread-support-after-racist-phone-attack/RXS27SVY7O2SGFRQCZOB2QZKGI/?

    The authorities need to take this matter seriously

    These offenders need to be named and shamed and charged in a court of law.

    You can’t tell me the police and security forces don’t have the means to detect and identify these offenders and the ability to lay charges. If this is not done in this case these petty fascists will become even more emboldened.

    We all know what happened when the authorities didn’t take harassment against the Islamic community seriously

    I hope to see these people in court very soon

    • observer 3.1
      18 August 2022 at 9:10 am

      “Have fascists and racists become more emboldened?

      Or has this always gone on in this country un-reported?”

      It's always gone on, but technology has changed. Good in one sense (the abuse can be recorded as evidence, even insults on the street can be captured on cellphones).

      Bad in another: racists can gather online and reinforce each other's bigotry. So yes, emboldened. As demonstrated by the many stories about extremist candidates this year.

      Good on him for calling it out, and the messages of support are heartening, at least.

      • Jenny how to get there 3.1.1
        18 August 2022 at 10:41 am

        observer

        18 August 2022 at 9:10 am

        ….the messages of support are heartening, at least.

        More than 'at least' the outpouring of messages of support for Dr Rawiri Taonui were overwhelming. In my opinion this outflowing of public support is the most significant part of this reported matter.

        Which is why I think it imperative that these racists need to be apprehended and named and shamed in public court.

        "….racists can gather online and reinforce each other's bigotry"

        Observer, what I think you have identified here, is that the online world has enabled minority like minded individuals to gather in virtual spaces where they can reinforce and encourage these views, and where they deludedly can convince each other of the rightness of these views divorced from reality.
        Online reinforcement of extremist views bearing little relation to the lived reality and humanity of the targets of their prejudice, or the wider held more tolerant views of community they live in, can allow online extremism to grow and fester, until eventually it breaks out into the real world.

        This is why it is imperative that these people need to named and shamed in the real world, so the communities they live and work in and the people they interact with on daily basis can be aware of them, and let them know that their views are unacceptable to the majority of us.

        It is good to see that Dr Rawiri Taonui has raised this matter with the police and I see that he has received praise from some commentators for doing so.

        It is up to the police now. Because of the power of social media and the serious real world consequences that can arise from the influence of unchecked online hate. When it breaks out into the real world this sort of behavour needs to be nipped in the bud and let know that it is not acceptable.

        The public deserve to see a serious police investigation resulting in these people being brought up in court on these offences.

        Too long has this sort of thing been ignored and downplayed by the authorities, and as we witnessed in Christchurch this can end in tragic results.

        https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/07/christchurch-shooting-agencies-accused-of-ignoring-years-of-warnings-the-muslim-community-was-in-danger.html

        We need a swift police investigation with results. Dr Rawiri Taonui police complaint needs to be taken seriously.

  4. Anker 4
    18 August 2022 at 9:25 am

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/gender-questioning-kids-being-let-down

    "Lack of local media reporting on significant internation developments on child and youth gender treatment is leaving NZ families to make life-changing decisions in an information vacuum"

    This article is about the almost complete black out in media coverage on the closure of the Tavistock and the legal action 1000 families are taking against the gender identity clinic.

    This had been extremely hard for some of us trying to blow the whistle on this and being smeared by others (not on this site ) for being anti trans and terfs etc.

    I have to say a huge thank you to the Standard and all who work so hard on it. You have allowed us a space to raise concerns when we were shut down in almost every avenue we tried to raise these issues.

  5. Anker 5
    18 August 2022 at 9:39 am

    More from the article I linked above

    When talking about the MOH webiste info on blockers "Blockers are safe and fully reversible….."

    "The rassuring statment now seems oddly out of step with the hesitancy being expressed internationally. Hesitancy which has seen a number of internationally renowned gender medicine clinics end the use of these drugs for under 18s within the last few years"

  7. Anne 7
    18 August 2022 at 10:23 am

    10/10 for Andrea Vance:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/129598951/the-covid19-conspiracy-theorists-targeting-northlands-local-elections

    Now it is up to all her fellow journalists to do the hard yards and name the rest of them. Maybe some have started. I hope so.

    • Leighton 7.1
      18 August 2022 at 11:56 am

      I hope somebody vets the Auckland council/local board candidates. Otherwise given the threat of stealth infiltration by VFF and the like I sadly won't be voting for any "independent" candidates this year unless I am personally familiar with them. It's not worth the risk – even one of these people out to make New Zealand "ungovernable" being elected would be one too many.

    • Rosemary McDonald 7.2
      18 August 2022 at 12:08 pm

      Yep, these journalists are on a righteous mission to seek out these terrible folk who are spreading disinformation regarding the safety of vaccines. Pleased to see Andrea Vance adding her name to the stable of fearless truthseekers.

      A pity about Paula though. Someone remembered this piece she did back in the day when it was (obviously) ok to question the safety of a vaccine and (OMG!!!) to give oxygen to those conspiracy theorists who claim that Gardasil caused serious adverse effects…including deaths.

      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/shows/2015/11/cause-or-coincidence-teen-dies-after-gardasil-vaccine.html

      It is going to be very interesting how this Fearless Journalist reconciles her work today with her work back then.

  8. arkie 8
    18 August 2022 at 10:58 am

    But wage increases will cause inflation! /s

    https://twitter.com/labourcartel/status/1560026230988034049

    Profit is unpaid wages/taxes.

    • weka 8.1
      18 August 2022 at 11:03 am

      Can I please use your comment in a post?

    • AB 8.2
      18 August 2022 at 11:06 am

      Aye – it's about who has pricing power in the market, and who doesn't. So it's essentially a political matter – both when inflation is imported and when imported inflation threatens to kick of a domestic wage-price spiral. Who escapes the pain and who cops it – a sh*t fight where the powerful win..

    • LibertyBelle 8.3
      18 August 2022 at 12:54 pm

      “Profit is unpaid wages/taxes.“

      Profit is a lot of things. It is part of what funds future growth, sustains businesses through recessions and market changes, rewards investors who bear the greatest risk.

    • alwyn 8.4
      18 August 2022 at 2:06 pm

      Did you bother to look at why the Mercury profit had risen so much?

      It was caused by a one-off gain of a net $367m from the sale of Tilt renewables. This the profit, at $469m was $328m more than the previous year. However without the one-off sale it would have been less than the previous year wouldn't it?

      It is all in their annual report if you had gone to the trouble of looking at it.

      https://indd.adobe.com/view/3d4b71af-e25a-4f7b-9860-9478b32541dc

  9. Barfly 9
    18 August 2022 at 11:54 am

    Well well well…….

    https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU2208/S00245/authority-imposes-interim-restrictions-on-very-large-electricity-contracts.htm

    So every household in New Zealand has been paying an extra $200 a year for Comalco's sweetheart deal since – well a bloody long time I guess. Of course the unstated is that every retailer, farmer, tradesman, manufacturer have also been paying more. How much do those Comalco jobs cost everyone in total? I'm picking "way too much" as my answer.

    My understanding is that Comalco's last bite of the cherry was to gain enormous reductions in it's transmission charges – That will also be everyone in New Zealand subsidising them for that. FFS can we please let them dam smelter die to help the whole of New Zealand

    • Bearded Git 9.1
      18 August 2022 at 1:22 pm

      Complete madness.

    • Poission 9.2
      18 August 2022 at 1:51 pm

      If Tiwai had closed you would not have had the increased investment in generation in the NI,which reduces transmission losses and cost.Transmission costs have increased due to new capacity to allow for the possible closure of Tiwai.

      Transpower has completed its Clutha to Upper Waitaki Lines project with the commissioning of the final works to replace conductor (the wire) on the Roxburgh to Livingstone section of the Roxburgh to Islington A 220 kV transmission line this week. The total project has nearly doubled the transmission capacity of the network for transfer northwards – particularly important for either new generation in the area or the potential closure of the aluminium smelter at Tiwai.

      https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/power-bill-changes-bring-fairness-charges

      Even Tiwais closure would not mean cheaper electricity as the ERA wanted the removal of low user charges (over half of NZ) so a lot of fat cats can have EV.

      https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/power-bill-changes-bring-fairness-charges

  10. Rosemary McDonald 10
    18 August 2022 at 12:21 pm

    Thailand. Covid deaths … 455/million.

    New Zealand Covid deaths… 509/million

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

    New Zealand Ministry of Health advice on Covid vaccination….

    Recommended for children over 5 and pregnant women etc etc

    https://www.health.govt.nz/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-vaccines

    Bangkok Hospital (Thailand) advice on Covid Vaccination…

    COVID-19 vaccine is NOT recommended in:

    • People aged below 18
    • People who have had previous history of serious allergic reactions to vaccine (s)
    • People who have had blood transfusion, plasma or other blood component exchange, including immunoglobulin, antiviral drugs or antibody therapy against COVID-19 in the last 90 days
    • Patients with confirmed SARS-Cov-2 infection in the last 10 days. In such a case, COVID-19 vaccine can be considered at least 3 months after being infected.
    • Patients with underlying diseases who have shown uncontrollable symptoms, e.g. chest discomfort, difficulty breathing, shortness of breath and palpitation. If needed, vaccination needs to be advised by the specialists.
    • Patients with neurological diseases or nervous system disorders. If needed, vaccination needs to be advised by the specialists.
    • Pregnant or breastfeeding women or women who have planned for pregnancy. Vaccination might be considered if the expert’s opinion can be obtained.
    • Immunocompromised patients or patients who take immunosuppressant drugs. If needed, vaccination needs to be advised by the specialists.
    • People with coagulation disorders, e.g. bleeding and low platelet count (thrombocytopenia) and patients who take anticoagulant or antiplatelet medicines. If needed, vaccination needs to be advised by the specialists.

    https://www.bangkokhospital.com/en/content/symptoms-to-know-after-getting-the-covid-19-vaccine

    And I'll pop this up again…since it is such an important piece of work.

    https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202208.0151/v1

    Cardiovascular Effects of the BNT162b2 mRNA COVID-19 Vaccine in Adolescents

    Cardiovascular effects were found in 29.24% of patients, ranging from tachycardia, palpitation, and myopericarditis. Myopericarditis was confirmed in one patient after vaccination. Two patients had suspected pericarditis and four patients had suspected subclinical myocarditis. Conclusion: Cardiovascular effects in adolescents after BNT162b2 mRNA COVID-19 vaccination included tachycardia, palpitation, and myocarditis. The clinical presentation of myopericarditis after vaccination was usually mild, with all cases fully recovering within 14 days. Hence, adolescents receiving mRNA vaccines should be monitored for side effects.

    The comments make for an interesting read. wink

    • Barfly 10.1
      18 August 2022 at 12:36 pm

      My personal confidence that Thailand's Covid deaths are understated = 100%

      My personal confidence that Thailand's age demographics are a shit load different to New Zealand's and that they have far lower % of elderly and the health compromised = 100%

      My personal confidence that you will continue flogging this dead horse for a very long time = 99%

      • Rosemary McDonald 10.1.1
        18 August 2022 at 12:49 pm

        Evidence to support your claims? Zero.

        You theory is based on what? New Zealand/Western superiority? Racism?

        And you can easily look up the demographics…no need to guess…

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_New_Zealand

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Thailand

        • Bearded Git 10.1.1.1
          18 August 2022 at 1:26 pm

          Covid Deaths: NZ 509/m UK 2711/m USA 3221/m

          IMHO Barfly may be right about Thailand understating its deaths. Third world countries tend not to have the resources to accurately report such things.

          • joe90 10.1.1.1.1
            18 August 2022 at 1:54 pm

            A few years ago a friend was found face down in a Thai marina. No investigation, no postmortem. The death certificate issued the day he was found offered no insight into how, when or why other than he drowned, was signed by the marina plod.

        • Mac1 10.1.1.2
          18 August 2022 at 1:40 pm

          NZ 2018 715,200 people aged 65+ years (15.2% of the population).

          https://www.ehinz.ac.nz/indicators/population-vulnerability/age-profile/

          Thailand 2016 11% of the Thai population are 65 years or older.

          https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/thailand/publication/thailand-economic-monitor-june-2016-aging-society-and-economy

          I would hazard a guess that the 4.2% difference between NZ and Thailand would include a longer surviving, more at risk population in New Zealand that is more likely to die of covid-related illness.

          According to Rosemary's Demographics.

          Thailand 60 + is 17% of the pop

          NZ 65+ is 14.9%of the pop

          Not fully like with like, but Thailand's population is percentage points fewer at the aged end.

          • joe90 10.1.1.2.1
            18 August 2022 at 2:08 pm

            The tropics help, too. As would well ventilated homes, community activities conducted outside, plant based diets and obesity rates a third of ours.

            • weka 10.1.1.2.1.1
              18 August 2022 at 2:40 pm

              more vitamin D from sun exposure, different hemispheres and thus seasons, timing of covid waves etc probably factor in as well.

        • weka 10.1.1.3
          18 August 2022 at 2:38 pm

          the limiting factor here seems to be a lack of understanding of what variables are and role they play, and that correlation doesn't equal causation (nor does stacking facts next to each other inherently have meaning).

          to wit, what are the potential reasons for this?

          https://twitter.com/UberFacts/status/1555820218307551233

          • Matiri 10.1.1.3.1
            18 August 2022 at 2:46 pm

            Because men are taller?
            More likely to be outside in a thunderstorm?

            Just kidding!

            • weka 10.1.1.3.1.1
              18 August 2022 at 4:10 pm

              I assume more likely to take risks like swimming in a thunder storm. Less likely to be cautious.

              Point was there will be various potential reasons and we can’t necessarily know just because of the data in front of us (but I like your guesses, lol, we should consider all the possibilities. Taller seems less likely to be a factor, being outside more more likely, and so on).

          • Nic the NZer 10.1.1.3.2
            18 August 2022 at 3:06 pm

            Males taking their disputes to the highest available authority.

            • weka 10.1.1.3.2.1
              18 August 2022 at 4:11 pm

              lol

              • Rosemary McDonald …
                18 August 2022 at 5:33 pm

                Nicely deflected there weka.

                Anything to say about the differing advice about who should get the Covid vax?

                Anything to say about the 1 in 300 rate of myocarditis from the Pfizer shot for 11-18 year olds in the study?

                lol. Like a heart attack.

                • gsays …
                  18 August 2022 at 6:16 pm

                  Thanks again for yr efforts, Rosemary.

                  I am reminded that it is politically unwise to be correct too soon.

                  Interesting that facts can seemingly countered with reckons and anecdotes when the righteous do it.

                  • weka …
                    18 August 2022 at 8:35 pm

                    What facts exactly? As far as I can't tell Rosemary is speculating about something, but won't say directly what she means. Maybe you could explain it to me? Is she saying that an extra 54/million people die of covid because of the differences in vaccine policy? What's the connection? Where's the actual evidence?

                • weka …
                  18 August 2022 at 8:32 pm

                  Anything to say about the differing advice about who should get the Covid vax?

                  What was your point though? I really wish you would state the up front and directly.

                  Because here's what I saw you say,

                  1. Thailand and NZ have different covid death rates.
                  2. Thailand and NZ have different vax policies

                  Inference being that there is a connection. You don't say what the connection is. Which is why I pointed out the problem of not understanding evidence, and making assumptions about the proximity of data.

                  Anything to say about the 1 in 300 rate of myocarditis from the Pfizer shot for 11-18 year olds in the study?

                  where did you get the 1 in 300 rate from? The number 300 doesn't appear in your link. If you copy and paste the relevant bit and explain your thinking, I will have something to say. As it is, I don't know what you are on about

                  • Rosemary McDonald …
                    19 August 2022 at 8:15 am

                    Thailand and NZ have very similar 'death from Covid' rates, and very different 'who should get the vaccine' advice.

                    If you read the paper. there was 301 subject received their second shot of Pfizer. There subjects baseline heart readings were ascertained beforehand.

                    Over 29% showed measurable heart issues…some worryingly sub-clinical.

                    1 of the 301 was diagnosed with myocarditis.

                    I was rounding weka…rounding.

                    • weka …
                      19 August 2022 at 8:59 am

                      thanks for explaining.

                      Thailand and NZ have very similar 'death from Covid' rates, and very different 'who should get the vaccine' advice.

                      I'm guessing you are trying to say that different vax practice should lead to more difference in death rates? Why?

                      It's already been outlined that the reasons for different rates in different countries comes from a range of variables. You can't just pick one and expect it to be meaningful.

                      I'd really encourage you to do a basic tutorial on how medical/health research and reporting works, the bit about variables and how/why they are 'controlled' for in particular. I'm not a scientist, and I don't have a huge knowledge in this area, but the basics go a long way.

                      I'm not being patronising there, I think you have some pertinent perspectives on the pandemic response, and like many others in the anti-response section of society, the lack of research/science literacy leads to extrapolating from science and data to poor analysis and arguments.

                      If you read the paper. there was 301 subject received their second shot of Pfizer. There subjects baseline heart readings were ascertained beforehand.

                      Over 29% showed measurable heart issues…some worryingly sub-clinical.

                      1 of the 301 was diagnosed with myocarditis.

                      I was rounding weka…rounding.

                      Sure, but I'm not going to read every paper someone posts online. The onus is on the person making the argument to make an actual argument (and use links/quotes to back that up).

                    • Incognito []
                      19 August 2022 at 9:15 am

                      @ weka

                      Thanks for the excellent response. Two things: it’s highly misleading to try link overall population-wide reported death rates to the incidence of myocarditis in a small age-selected group. In NZ such link has not been established nor confirmed (yet).

                      https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/safety-report-44.asp

                      Secondly, rounding from 301 to 300 is a red herring. Rosemary’s reckon is that this number is so much higher than other reported ones for the incidence of myocarditis.

                    • Incognito …
                      19 August 2022 at 9:06 am

                      Thailand and NZ have very similar 'death from Covid' rates, …

                      Yes, depending on where you look and what number you pick it would indeed suggest that reported mortality rates are fairly similar. However, this can be very misleading if the ways of reporting are very different. Therefore, more objective observers tend to use excess death or excess death rates for comparisons. I’m sure that you can find it, if you want to 😉

                      Ms. Googler, that's me.

                      https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-03-08-2022/#comment-1903615

                    • weka …
                      19 August 2022 at 9:16 am

                      Here's my lay person opinion about the relevance of

                      Anything to say about the 1 in 300 rate of myocarditis from the Pfizer shot for 11-18 year olds in the study?

                      300 seems to me to be quite a small sample. If the same population was studied at say 5,000 people, we might find that the 1 in 300 rate drops. In the abstract the conclusion is that teens have these particular cardiac events post-vax, and teens getting vaxed should be monitored for side effects.

                      You could ask people with better medical science literacy than me what a useful study number would be (I made up the 5,000).

                      They're not claiming that their research shows 1 in 300 teens get pericarditis. You are making that claim and the evidence you have presented doesn't support that. Best we can say is that in this small study 1 of the 300 teens got pericarditis, and we can ask should there be follow up studies to see if this is a valid %?

                      The other thing is that we can't see from the abstract how they controlled for variables. Once the paper is printed, people with sufficient medical science literacy will read the paper and critique whether its methodology is sound. That is a crucial part of medical research, examination of methodology.

                    • weka …
                      19 August 2022 at 9:24 am

                      beyond that, as you probably know, my position on covid vaccination is that vaccinations come at a cost to some individuals but protect populations. The validity of that approach depends on how many individual people it's ok to harm in the process of protecting the whole population.

                      I also think that one of the ways we are failing is by minimising vaccine harm and thus failing to adequately support the people who end up with health problems.

                      On the other side, we are doing pretty much the same with adverse reactions to covid infection, including long covid.

                      I see both sides dismissing harm. Pro-vax minimise vax harm. the 'covid's not so bad' side minimise the disability created by covid infections. Neither is helping the people being harmed by those positions.

                      Further, the people arguing against covid vax generally have poor science literacy and are undermining their own arguments by this. Wakefield and the subsequent anti-vax movement have done a massive amount of damage to the pre-anti-vax movements that sought to promote health prevention via other means. We now have a chasm between people who have faith in vaccines and people who have faith in holistic medicine, when we should be working together.

                    • Rosemary McDonald …
                      19 August 2022 at 10:01 am

                      [deleted – I will restore your comment when you have complied with the moderation request. This is costing me time, so if you keep this up I will simply move you to the Black List. I have no time and am not in the mood for your games – Incognito]

                    • Incognito []
                      19 August 2022 at 10:07 am

                      Mod note

                • Incognito …
                  18 August 2022 at 9:16 pm

                  What ‘heart attacks’?????

                  Have you bothered to look at excess mortality in Thailand during the pandemic and compared this to NZ? You might be in for a surprise, one that might not suit your biased narrative.

                  MOH is not going to change anything based on or because of this ‘study’.

                  • Rosemary McDonald …
                    19 August 2022 at 8:27 am

                    What ‘heart attacks’?????

                    Yep. What's a little heart damage for teenagers, eh? They'll get over it, eh?

                    Of course our Ministry of Health will not change their advice on this prospective study, but the Danish Ministry of Health has changed their Covid vaccine advice.

                    With quite strict limits on who is allowed to have the shots.

                    You can find the Danish Ministry site through here… https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-coronavirus-denmark-idUSL1N2ZS0J8 (No doubt you will find this site more credible than, say, this link https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4072489 )

                    ….which is Christine Stabell-Benns 'study' from May.

                    Video here, again, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_nKoybyMGg ….and its interesting to note that the Danish Health Ministry seems to have largely followed her advice and made it very difficult for under 18 year olds to get the Pfizer shot…because the risk of adverse effects outweigh the benefits.

                    I presume you are an epidemiologist? A public health expert? A medical doctor? A vaccinologist? A medical statistician?

                    Any qualification or hands-on experience that makes your reckons more credible than the actual professionals?

                    [You insinuated that there were vaccine-induced heart attacks reported in that study that you linked that is not (yet) peer-reviewed. You back it up and show where exactly this is mentioned. You’re in Pre-Mod until you’ve provided this particular piece of information because I’ve no inclination chasing you down your usual rabbit holes – Incognito]

                    • Incognito …
                      19 August 2022 at 8:37 am

                      Mod note

                    • Rosemary McDonald …
                      19 August 2022 at 9:08 am

                      Where did I 'insinuate' that there were vaccine induced heart attacks?

                      I referenced a common saying…

                      https://www.quora.com/Where-did-the-phrase-Im-as-serious-as-a-heart-attack-come-from-And-what-does-it-really-mean

                      …you can take your pick from the definitions offered.

                      Any happening that causes measurable changes in a young person's baseline indicators of heart health is very, very serious.

                      Rather than address the study…it is an actual study Incognito, not the idle reckons of some anonymous denizen of the internet…commentors simply mock, joke and trivialize.

                      Referencing Christine Stabell-Benn and the Danish Ministry of Health indicates a slide down a rabbit hole?

                      Dear Jesus, Mary, Joseph and the Goddess…please let it not be such as yourself setting policy for our Ministry of Health.

                      Hint. Denmark, and Thailand, change their advice and policies on Covid vaccinations according to the latest available data.

                      [Nice deflection 🙂

                      Anything to say about the 1 in 300 rate of myocarditis from the Pfizer shot for 11-18 year olds in the study?

                      lol. Like a heart attack.

                      And

                      What’s a little heart damage for teenagers, eh?

                      One more chance for you to put up the support for your misleading and exaggerated comments, from the study you linked to; I have no time today to play your games – Incognito]

                    • Incognito []
                      19 August 2022 at 9:24 am

                      Mod note

                    • weka …
                      19 August 2022 at 9:28 am

                      so this is a really good example of what I was just talking about regarding medical science literacy. I agree with Incognito that the paper doesn't mention heart attacks at all.

                      It says,

                      The most common cardiovascular effects were tachycardia (7.64%), shortness of breath (6.64%), palpitation (4.32%), chest pain (4.32%), and hypertension (3.99%)

                      And peri/myocarditis.

                      None of those are a heart attack.

                      I don't know if you know this and were using hyperbole. Or if you don't in fact know what a heart attack is. Either way, it's exactly this kind of mistake that undermines the vax concerned argument. Science people and public health people, and those that have faith in them, (the ones that need to be convinced) will never take such arguments seriously when they make such fundamental mistakes.

                    • weka …
                      19 August 2022 at 9:39 am

                      Where did I 'insinuate' that there were vaccine induced heart attacks?

                      Here,

                      What ‘heart attacks’?????

                      Yep. What's a little heart damage for teenagers, eh? They'll get over it, eh?

                      I can see how it could be read both ways, but the onus is on you to communicate effectively and clarify.

                      FWIW, you can't provide the evidence that Incognito is asking for, because it's not there, so just take responsibility for the miscommunication and acknowledge that no heart attacks happened in that study and we can move on.

                    • Nic the NZer …
                      19 August 2022 at 5:06 pm

                      Let me assure you Rosemary, I was in no way making light of heart attacks. A careful reading of 10.1.1.3.2 will show I was in fact making light of being struck by lightning.

                • KJT …
                  19 August 2022 at 5:09 am

                  Rosemary.

                  What is the rate of myocarditis in young people who havn't had a covid shot?

                  What is the rate of myocarditis in young people who havn't had a covid shot and got covid?

                  • Rosemary McDonald …
                    19 August 2022 at 8:09 am

                    KJT.

                    Hard to get that information…there are a couple of studies from Israel that counted emergency heart issues incidents before the vaccine roll out and after and found a considerably higher number in the after group.

                    The Newsroom article I linked to…https://www.newsroom.co.nz/ideasroom/some-perspective-on-vaccine-side-effects

                    …has a handy wee chart that might at least tell you what the myocarditis rate due to covid rate they reckoned… 455 per million infections in the 12-17 age group.

                    The Thai study suggests at least 3000 cases per 1 million second doses of Pfizer.

                    A bit of a difference.

                    • Incognito …
                      19 August 2022 at 8:58 am

                      Hard to get that information…

                      Exactly! Yet, you’re more than happy & willing to extrapolate your reckons to conclusions without having the info nor the skills & expertise to interpret that info. Any scientist knows that extrapolating (usually in a simplistic uninformed unconditional linear fashion) from a small sample (e.g. a small trial) to a much larger one (e.g. a whole population) is nothing more than a gamble, a stab in the dark and the extrapolated number has such an enormous error (aka uncertainty) that it is essentially meaningless. The way to mitigate this is to have a robust mechanistic model that is validated (aka calibrated), which can be used to make predictions & extrapolations with more acceptable (aka realistic and meaningful) confidence intervals. What you and other amateurs tend to do is essentially hand waving (and barking up wrong trees).

                      To illustrate the pitfalls of extrapolation:

                      In the space of one hundred and seventy six years the Lower Mississippi has shortened itself two hundred and forty-two miles. That is an average of a trifle over a mile and a third per year. Therefore, any calm person, who is not blind or idiotic, can see that in the Old Oölitic Silurian Period, just a million years ago next November, the Lower Mississippi was upwards of one million three hundred thousand miles long, and stuck out over the Gulf of Mexico like a fishing-pole. And by the same token any person can see that seven hundred and forty-two years from now the Lower Mississippi will be only a mile and three-quarters long, and Cairo [Illinois] and New Orleans will have joined their streets together and be plodding comfortably along under a single mayor and a mutual board of aldermen. There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

                      Mark Twain – Life on the Mississippi

                    • weka …
                      19 August 2022 at 9:47 am

                      Hard to get that information…there are a couple of studies from Israel that counted emergency heart issues incidents before the vaccine roll out and after and found a considerably higher number in the after group.

                      What that tells us is that emergency heart issues increased later in the pandemic. It doesn't tell us why. eg vax, covid, stress, or some other aspect of the group that we can't see.

                      The Thai study suggests at least 3000 cases per 1 million second doses of Pfizer.

                      no, it really doesn't. See explanations above. You are suggesting that, not the study.

                    • weka …
                      19 August 2022 at 10:41 am

                      that's a great Mark Twain quote. I'm guessing he was writing that in a time when there was a lot of tension in the US between science and the religious power embedded in society? People with a strong attachment to their gut sense and belief/convention struggling with rationality.

                      (not that I think gut sense is wrong/bad, I see the problem nowdays as it being misapplied and misusing science in the process).

          • Robert Guyton 10.1.1.3.3
            18 August 2022 at 6:26 pm

            It's obvious: men have more iron in their blood, because they don't lose it through menstruation.

            These things are not difficult…

          • Incognito 10.1.1.3.4
            18 August 2022 at 9:20 pm

            It's because many men have a bolt spot.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 10.1.2
        18 August 2022 at 5:27 pm

        If consensus expert medical opinion shifts, from advocating vaccination against COVID-19 to saying these vaccines do more harm than good, then I'll stop lining up for free boosters. Until then I'll be a fast follower of MoH advice on the best ways to avoid complications from COVID-19 infections – that includes boosters.

        If Rosemary's continuing crusade here persuades a few Kiwis not to protect themselves, then that's a shame (and shameful, imho), but it's their choice.

        Benefits of Getting a COVID-19 Vaccine (updated 11 August 2022)

        Will anti-vaccine activism in the USA reverse global goals?
        (1 August 2022)
        US anti-vaccine activism under the banner of health freedom (also referred to as medical freedom) has produced tragic and even deadly consequences. The loss of life has been massive. Since 1 May 2021, when President Biden’s administration announced that COVID-19 vaccines would become widely and freely available, at least 200,000 unvaccinated Americans have lost their lives potentially needlessly because they refused to have a COVID immunization.

  11. joe90 11
    18 August 2022 at 1:14 pm

    She ought to have had the bat phone with her but hey, I'd be playing up too if I were PM and had Russia camped on the back doorstep.

    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1560018591688302595

  12. observer 12
    18 August 2022 at 2:24 pm

    This is darkly comic, I guess … 2022 in headlines:

    "Newshub Live – Emergency Minister Kieran McAnulty gives flooding update, also expected to be quizzed on bullying claims"

    "So Minister, apart from all the poor people losing their homes and hope, communities feeling crushed, what about the real news?"

    • newsense 12.1
      18 August 2022 at 11:28 pm

      Some dude from Hamilton never won battle of the bands despite being just the cleverest and now everyone, just everyone knows who he is! Rockn rolla!

  13. lprent 13
    18 August 2022 at 3:22 pm

    Kind of annoying the way that google bombards with ads after you buy something.

    I started to look for a new desk on the weekend to replace a very small desk that I have suffered with with since 2016 – including working at home during lock-downs. I changed jobs last September just as we went into lockdown again (damnit). So I didn't get a chance to try working from home with a better desk.

    As it was a remote job, and I already knew I wasn't productive working at home (probably because of desk and lack of deskspace) I moved to local shared workspace, and was the only one there during that lockdown and since.

    The cubicle at the workplace worked perfectly after I got a ultra wide screen and a height adjustable tray for it. Turned out that part of the problem was focal length with my progressives to the screen at eye height. Another part was my home screen resolution was just too damn high for the screen size.

    However this workplace has been sold – so I have to move. Time for a new desk for home, and for whatever house we buy over the next few months to get more home office space. I'll try a the new desk.

    1.8m x 0.8m white because that is exactly the size that works for me. The old desk was about 1.0m x 0.7m and glass with a fixed screen riser.

    Standing desk with dual electric motors. Not because I'm likely to spend much time standing – but because I find that I'm pretty sensitive to desk/seat heights to get the correct hand/eye levels.

    So on Tuesday I had a look at the one at showroom that I selected off the net. Got them to get a wide custom corner radius so we don't cripple ourselves when we walk into a corner. Paid for it in Wednesday via the net after confirming the custom change.

    Since Tuesday I have been bombarded by ads via google for standing desks. At least half from the place I brought it from.

    On monday I brought and paid-for a set of yubikey from yubico. Today the bloody net is starting to push similar devices.

    What gets me is that the ads start days after I have already made a ddision an dbrought something.

    Who do they cater to – people who always dither?

    Grrr… I might have to put a ad-blocker in. Or start just blocking google from tracking me.

    Anyway in a few weeks I should have half-way decent class desk available if anyone wants one and they live in Auckland and can pick it up….

    Most people don’t need to be as functionally finicky about gear as I have to be. I might even throw in a older high end logitech mouse that will happily work on a glass desk if I can find where I stashed it.

    • Macro 13.1
      18 August 2022 at 3:57 pm

      Yeah just having the same experience. I've been doing on-line searches for rear wheel bearings for my 1991 Volvo 360 GLT which I am rebuilding. (Have had one since 1984 when I bought one new, Military sales, when serving in Singapore.)

      Now inundated by Google with ads for all manner of wheel bearings!

      PS. It the car gets used very little just the odd run once a month, down the coast to the beach. It's kept (along with my 1957 R50 BMW motorbike also recently rebuilt) for sentimental reasons. The Beemer has been ridden halfway round the world, starting in Pretoria South Africa, up through Africa, around the continent, then down through the middle east (as you could do in the late 50's – early 60's) India, then shipped to Perth, across the Nullibor to Melbourne and finally to NZ in wellington when I bought it in the mid 60's.

    • Anne 13.2
      18 August 2022 at 5:01 pm

      I was looking for a rug a year or so ago and was bombarded with ads for rugs. Still get them now and then. I bought some shoes and a cell blanket online a few months ago and have had blanket coverage of shoes and blankets ever since. Never ending.

    • Barfly 13.3
      18 August 2022 at 5:21 pm

      Dr Martens and sheepskin boots for me lol

    • gsays 13.4
      18 August 2022 at 6:27 pm

      With it being a great harvest this season, I searched for a grinder to make vaping the medicinal buds easier.

      I was surprised to find there are plenty of single men in my area who apparently want to f%#k me…

      • Robert Guyton 13.4.1
        18 August 2022 at 6:43 pm

        Nutri

        Bullet

        • joe90 13.4.1.1
          18 August 2022 at 7:31 pm

          Hand with slightly cupped palm down on cutting surface, insert goods between the two, slide in a reasonably large pair of scissors and chop, chop, away using using cupped palm to contain goods. Better than a grinder.

      • lprent 13.4.2
        19 August 2022 at 6:11 pm

        So what do you do when the crop is excessive – does it or the oil freeze?

        • lprent 13.4.2.1
          19 August 2022 at 6:32 pm

          Search for the medicinal properties of the active ingredients on the net? It would probably be a more interesting read.

        • gsays 13.4.2.2
          20 August 2022 at 10:38 pm

          I keep away from freezing, well cured, low light and little oxygen. Agee jars are ideal.

  14. Jenny how to get there 14
    18 August 2022 at 6:42 pm

    "I refuse to stand by while people are living in cars" Leader of the opposition Jacinda Ardern, 2020

    The housing crisis could be fixed with the stroke of a pen.

    Pick up your pen Prime Minister, stop standing by, make it illegal for perfectly good homes to be left empty.

    Fine the owners to pressure them to sell or rent these homes out. Fix the housing crisis with your pen.

    Stop standing by.

    Prime Minister Ardern. Why are you doing this?

    Are the "Wealth Storing" creeps more important to you, than the suffering of families and children living in cars?

    What Auckland’s ‘ghost homes’ could do for the housing crisis

    There are about 40,000 'ghost houses' in Auckland. Cat MacLennan asks if a tax on these empty homes could help house homeless people and low-income workers.

    ….According to the 2018 Census, there are approximately 40,000 empty private homes in Auckland. That is 7.3 percent of the total, up from 6.6 percent in the previous Census in 2013. And Auckland is not the only place in Aotearoa with vacant homes at a time when accommodation is expensive and in short supply…

    ….a significant number are empty simply because the owners are focused on capital gains. This is now an international phenomenon. In England it is called “buy to leave,” in New York it is described as “warehousing,” while in British Columbia it is known as “wealth storing”.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2020/03/12/1077724/cat-maclennan-on-ghost-housing#:~:text=According%20to%20the%202018%20Census%2C%20there%20are%20approximately,when%20accommodation%20is%20expensive%20and%20in%20short%20supply.

    People Living In Cars Has Quadrupled Under Labour

    https://community.scoop.co.nz/2022/07/people-living-in-cars-has-quadrupled-under-labour-2/

    • Binders full of women 14.1
      18 August 2022 at 8:19 pm

      190,000 empty houses in New Zealand. If only 10% of those were inhabited there would be no housing crisis. FFS this is a PM who had a nuclear moment re climate and we're now importing 30% more coal

      • Mac1 14.1.1
        19 August 2022 at 9:56 am

        Like this?

        https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2007/S00143/barcelona-warns-companies-rent-out-your-empty-apartments-or-we-will-take-them-over.htm

        "The city only wants to target large companies. All apartments set for the potential take-over belong to owners of multiple housing units. Moreover, the flats have to be empty for more than two years and there may not be a record of recent power use. This should ensure that second homes are not included.

        Vacancies are a worldwide issue. In the US, there are 18.9 million vacant homes – compared to 3.5 million homeless. This means there are more than five times as many vacant apartments as there are homeless people. It is the same in Europe: more than 11 million homes lie empty, while 4 million people have no roof over their heads."

        Not only do we have homeless unhoused while homes are empty, we have RSE workers housed in appalling conditions, and areas where people don't come to live even though there are desirable jobs because of the lack of housing.