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Open mike 18/12/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 18th, 2012 - 136 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

136 comments on “Open mike 18/12/2012 ”

  1. David Viperious H 1

    Key on TV3 Now that’s Delusional!!!! They have had a good year and back on track for a surplus and he rates his govt at 8/10. What a Clown!

    • bad12 1.1

      In terms of ‘who’ the Slippery National Government are Governing on behalf of the Slippery little Shyster could well be patting Himself on the back for a job well done,

      As one of the ‘share-holding’ elite Slippery has managed in 3 short years to short circuit the New Zealand economy removing most of the disposable income from the bottom 40% of income and redistribute this directly into the pockets of the top 60% of income thus insuring that production for the local economy drops as demand is stifled all the while maintaining the income streams of the top 60% of incomes via tax cuts and the virtual gifting of the top earning State Owned Assets to those within that income group,

      His smugness must become ever more entrenched as He realizes that there is little chance of a Shearer lead government having the ‘metal’ needed to convince the electorate that both economically and socially the short circuiting of the New Zealand economy must be reversed…

  2. jenny Kirk 2

    What on earth is going on ? You used to be able to send your kids off to school, on their own, off to the local shop, wherever – without even thinking they might be abducted. Now – there seems to be an abduction or attempt at one on young children every second day, Why is this happening so often ? Why is it happening at all ?

    This is in today’s Herald : (sorry, don’t know how to get italics, etc on this post)

    “Police have issued a description of a man they say followed an 8-year-old girl and tried to drag her into his car – the latest in a series of abduction attempts in Auckland.

    “The incident happened in Mt Roskill on Sunday, December 9, but was made public yesterday. In another sinister case in Ellerslie, a 9-year-old girl was led for 50m by an abductor before she managed to break free.
    ………..
    “A police spokeswoman said the man – described as Indian, about 30 years old, of average height and medium build – first demanded they get into his car and then got out of his vehicle and grabbed the young girl. “Her sister intervened …….
    “Police are still looking for information about the attempt last week outside Ellerslie School.
    “The 9-year-old girl, who was forcefully led 50m away from the school, was unharmed”.

    • David Viperious H 2.1

      Welcome to Nationals Brighter Future.
      Where the back office staff have been cut so much, the Police have to their work as well. Where CYFS are more interested in talking, than in action, to save the children. Where The minister for the Vulnerable (Unemployed) thinks nothing of using private information to shut you up. Where ACC instead of helping, uses tame doctors to send people on their way unwell and injured. Where the Minister for the Taxation system says there’s nothing wrong, yet getting anything done seems beyond them. And lets not forget the Minister for Education, 1 word. Incompetent.

      Yes lets just bask in the glow of Nationals Brighter Future

      • TheContrarian 2.1.1

        Yes, attempted child abductions are totally the fault of the National Government.

        • NoseViper (The Nose knows) 2.1.1.1

          The Contrarian
          You’re just jealous that nobody values you enough to abduct you.

        • felixviper 2.1.1.2

          “Yes, attempted child abductions are totally the fault of the National Government.”

          No, not totally. But certainly the ongoing program of policies which make our society less equal and put those at the bottom of the heap under more and more pressure plays a substantial part.

          • King Kong 2.1.1.2.1

            So by that logic being rich means you are unlikely to turn into a kiddie fiddler.

            Another good reason to avoid the poor

            • felixviper 2.1.1.2.1.1

              No that’s not what it means at all.

              It means that less equal societies foster more pressure, more stress, more fear, more violence, more crime, and more hatred than more equal ones.

              That’s what you’re arguing for every time your knee jerks out to kick at at the least fortunate in support of some punitive, oppressive attack on the poor. A worse society in every way.

              Good on you mate.

          • Chris 2.1.1.2.2

            I would understand that comment if this was about stealing or something, but how does inequality make child abduction more prevalent.
            My instinct tells me (i.e. I have no source to back this up) that child abductions will come from right across the wealth spectrum rather than stealing which will be weighted more to the poor.

            • TheContrarian 2.1.1.2.2.1

              Crimes like theft, burglary and dishonesty offences I could see as being logically connected to poverty but not attempted child abduction.

              • mike

                I see you’re still tr0lling The Standard pretending to be retarded TC. Or maybe you really are dumb enough to think that the only crimes related to poverty and social inequality are those related to theft. I’m going with the former.

                Hey try Googling ‘poverty child abuse’. It turns out there’s a whole bunch of stuff there that says you’re a complete dick.

                • Colonial Weka

                  The correlation with child abuse is obvious. We’re talking about abduction, which is quite a different crime.

                  • mike

                    My first paragraph was a response to TC’s preceding comment. My second paragraph was about my personal opinion of TC which people can agree with or not as they like.

                    However – you are talking semantics. ‘Child abuse’ is not that simple to define, I for one consider child abduction to be child abuse. No one has a monopoly on a definition. Feel free to offer yours, but note that the majority of abductions are commited by family members or acquaintances. http://suite101.com/article/statistics-on-child-abduction-a147599

                    From http://www.childabductions.org/, who might actually know what they’re talking about:

                    “The California Child Abduction Task Force views family and non–family abductions as forms of child abuse. While the psychological trauma inflicted upon a child abducted by a non–family member is commonly acknowledged, abduction by a parent or other family member has long been minimized as having few serious consequences since the child knows the abductor. However, children who are abducted, whether by a person unknown to the child or by a family member, suffer serious psychological and emotional trauma.”

                    • Colonial Weka

                      Of course abduction is abuse. That’s a given. But it’s useful to understand the differences between relatively rare stranger abductions that get a lot of MSM attention, and the everyday abuse of children done by people they know, without abduction.
                       
                      The connections between poverty/stress and everyday abuse of children is self-evident. The connections between poverty/stress and abductions is less clear, although I personally think it’s still a factor.
                       
                      Tc seems to be questioning the idea that poverty/stress is a significant factor in stranger abductions. I think that’s a valid question, even though I disagree with his stance.

                    • mike

                      “The correlation with child abuse is obvious. We’re talking about abduction, which is quite a different crime.”

                      “Of course abduction is abuse. That’s a given”

                      K…

                      TC didn’t say he didn’t think the connection between poverty and abductions was significant, he said he couldn’t see a logical connection at all. What I thought he seemed to be saying was that the only crimes related to poverty were those related to theft I pointed to the wealth of evidence that child abuse is indeed connected to poverty, and obviously, as you say, abduction (by a stranger or not) is a form of child abuse. So govt policy is connected to poverty which is connected to abductions.

                      How significant that connection is is next to impossible to quantify or measure, so it’s probably a pointless discussion. But you’ve said you think it’s a factor – that’s all I was saying.

              • Mary

                How then, TC, can the huge increases in murders in New Zealand since, say, the mid 1980s, be explained? I’m talking about how the murders of Jennifer Beard and Mona Blades, for example, in the early and mid-1970s, were front page news for weeks and weeks because murders back then were so thin and far between. Now murders are generally mentioned once on page five because they’re so commonplace. How can this be explained? How does a right-winger describe the reasons for this phenomenon?

            • One Tāne Viper 2.1.1.2.2.2

              “…stealing which will be weighted more to the poor.”

              Some studies support that statement. Others maintain that property crimes are pretty much evenly distributed across all social strata.

              Depends how it’s measured too. If purely by dollar value, bankers win hands down.

              • King Kong

                Fine. We are the thieves you are the [deleted – settle down please. r0b]

                [lprent: 😈 Ah wasting moderators time.. The first step in the road to purgatory. ]

                • TheContrarian

                  Lprent – no one gives a shit about your time.

                  • McFliper

                    Actually, I’m quite grateful he spends it here rather than doing polls analysis for the National Party…

                • Ennui in Requiem Mass for CV

                  Yes 1Prent, its hot down here in Purgatory today. KK stands no chance of cooling down round here so dont send him, suggest you slap him round the ears with a banana instead.

            • felixviper 2.1.1.2.2.3

              “child abductions will come from right across the wealth spectrum”

              That’s not at all inconsistent with what I wrote.

        • Andre 2.1.1.3

          GFC, .. Its labour,s fault didnt you know….. Fair dinkum

        • Dr Terry 2.1.1.4

          The Contrarian. Yes, probably, if indirectly, the fault of the National government “policies”.

          • TheContrarian 2.1.1.4.1

            A person attempts to abducate a child and this is the fault of Nationals policies?
            Do explain

            • felixviper 2.1.1.4.1.1

              If those policies fuck our society up and fuck peoples’ lives up then yeah, could be.

              • TheContrarian

                wow

                • McFliper

                  While it’s a big call, it is reasonably consistent with the concept that government policies actually affect people and their behaviours rather than just being a balance sheet without chaotically-propagating repercussions.
                       
                  ISTR reading somewhere that folks crossing the threshold from fantasizing to acting on the motives tends to coincide with life stresses such as relationship breakdowns, financial difficulty or deaths of loved ones. 
                       
                  Personally, I think that the frequency is thankfully too small to draw any correlation with national’s policies (although one might be able to do something with police response times and deployed resources). 
                       
                  Socio-economic mortality due to non-vaccine diseases, on the other hand, seems to have a much more clear correlation with tory governments.

                  • TheContrarian

                    Yeah but I can’t actually see what government policies would lead a 30 year old man to try and abduct a young girl. That sort of thing is kinda dependent on the person, no? Particualry when this sort of thing happens will a similar frequency under both Labour and National.
                    (not to mention the fact it is fairly repugnant to politicise something like this)

                    • McFliper

                      As I said, IMO I reckon the “stranger danger” rates are too small to draw any political conclusion.
                           
                      But like most other antisocial acts, if social stressors are triggers for a significant percentage of the potential offender population, then times of stress could plausibly cause an increase in offences. For a less politicly abusable example, ChCh domestic violence rose significantly after the earthquakes. 
                           
                      Individual perspectives are valuable, but we also need to look at the wider social perspective to possibly identify causal factors that aren’t necessarily visible when we look at one case at a time.

                    • felixviper

                      “Yeah but I can’t actually see what government policies would lead a 30 year old man to try and abduct a young girl.”

                      Me neither. But I didn’t say there was any particular policy that caused any particular act.

                      What I said was (paraphrasing) people with fucked-up lives are more likely to do fucked-up things, and the right-wing policies that governmens like this one follow fuck up a lot of people’s lives.

                      Hardly a controversial statement.

                    • muzza

                      And those with the most f-ed up lives are those who make the rules we have to live by, those who enforce the rules and those who are protected by the rule makers and enforcers.

                  • higherstandard

                    “Socio-economic mortality due to non-vaccine diseases, on the other hand, seems to have a much more clear correlation with tory governments.”
                    Got a link for that for any country ? It’d be an interesting read.

                    • McFliper

                      Other than The Spirit Level? 🙂
                             
                      Here’s an interesting one. Although by no means definitive (yadda yadda GFC yadda yadda), it’s slightly stronger than I suspect a time-series graph of stranger-danger abduction attempts might be. And probably a more robust reporting set, too.

                    • higherstandard

                      I was thinking of a dataset looking at specific diseases (cancer, cardiovascular diseases etc) over time in relation to governments in power. i’d be surprised if there was any significant effect of government flavour in comparison to the general trend of incidence of the specific disease in question.

                      Mental health and non immunisable infectious diseases and respiratory illnesses would be interesting to look at but again it would likely be confounded by the diagnostic and treatment advances over time.

                    • felixviper

                      I doubt you’d find any patterns alternating between a few years of red policy vs a few years of blue policy.

                      The interesting bit would be looking at the last 30 years of neoliberal freemarket policy vs the preceeding 30.

                    • McFliper

                      Not so sure about that.
                          
                      I’d be looking at RFD/RHD, pneumonia for older patients, and complications of ambulatory-sensitive conditions like skin infections and so on. Something with a plausible relationship to primary healthcare access and access to proper food hygiene and warmth. Maybe serious admissions for mental conditions that are reasonably treatable at the early stages, too, but I don’t know much about how applicable that would be. 
                           
                      The way I see it, cancer and a big chunk of cardiovascular conditions would have a socioeconomic relationship because of smoking, and it would get skewed because it’s narrowly targeted as a health condition. The non-smoking cancers would be largely geographic, or congenital like a large bit of the remainder of the heart disease if we’re looking across age groups, too.  
                           
                      It would be an interesting study to be part of, but to be really effective it would have to use the admissions and mortality datasets linked together over say 20 years, and even then you can’t properly get super-reliable deprivation data at the individual level, without maybe inspections and interviews and income records.
                         
                      The paperwork hurts my brain at the very thought, which is probably why I’m not paid the big bucks :). But I’d be as happy as a pig in shit with the dataload. And a study that size with that level of confidential data might even be enough reason to get a dedicated high-performance computing centre 🙂 

    • Colonial Weka 2.2

      Jenny, was that the online or print version of the Herald?
      I doubt that the rate of abductions has gone up hugely. More likely is that we notice more because of the increase in population, and because of increased media reporting.
       
      I suspect that the Herald is being sensationalist. Since when is two attempted abductions a ‘series’? The use of the word ‘sinister’ is emotionally manipulative and completely unnecessary for reporting the story. Hard to know if those things are intentional or just stupid. Not to undermine the seriousness of abduction, but this is still a relatively rare crime compared to child abuse by people who know the child.
       

      • Populuxe1 2.2.1

        Not in a lawyerly way, no, it’s not inconsistent, you left yourself a big ambiguous loophole to paddle in, but you did still try to link child abduction/paedophilia/whatever with societal inequality as if it was just an ordinary crime motivated by stress or poverty. It’s not. Shades of Lysenkoism methinks, letting ideology trump science is bad form.

      • Dr Terry 2.2.2

        CW. What is the point of comparisons in issues of these kinds? Bad is simply bad.

        • Colonial Weka 2.2.2.1

          Hyping up issues around stranger rape of children hides the fact that most sexual abuse of children is done by people that know them and are in a position of care-giving or authority. The hiding of this makes it much harder for society to do anything useful or meaningful about child abuse.
           
          Hyping up stranger rape also makes society paranoid about the wrong things.

    • King Kong 2.3

      Nothing has changed.

      We got followed home by a paedo from school back in the day who got a bit leary.

      We all ran away and then our Dad’s came out and gave him a hiding. Probably didn’t go on the police figures and certainly didn’t make the papers.

      • Populuxe1 2.3.1

        And actually that is a very valid point. Such things are a lot more widely reported than they used to be because of the shame and embarrassment involved – not that anyone wanted to acknowledge such things happened in this country either. Compare that to the general media policy of not reporting on suicides on the silly grounds it might encourage copycats, or the tragic under-reporting of male rape victims to the police.

        Another factor worth considering is the ease of transport and mobility available to people these days.

  3. Something’s going to happen – Something wonderful.

    Stan Heather rugby park. http://maps.google.co.nz/maps?q=stan+heather+park&rlz=1C1SAVA_enNZ506NZ506&sugexp=chrome,mod%3D3&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&ei=z2LPUOv-He-eiAe6zYDQAg&ved=0CAsQ_AUoAA

    Zoned community facility, sold to an unknown developer,with tender bids decided by an unknown rugby trust commitee for $2m+ conditional on the city council rezoning to residential in the new district plan. The council, led by a mayor you may/or not recall seeing on Campbell live extolling her support for rubgy in the city, intend to rubber stamp after submission end in march.

    I have a lovely little plan. I’m going to stop the rezoning from happening and ensure Stan Heather Park remain a community facility in the truest sense of the word, and never again be at the mercy of secret board trustees, greedy developers and an incompetent council. I just need some help to get set up to make it work.

    Firstly, I need to set up a charitable trust. Any takers?
    Second, get Owen Glenn to give me call.

    Real change always comes from the bottom up, always. Get me set up and I’ll show you how in Hamilton West.

    All hailing frequencies open.

    • The Al1en 3.1

      Remember kim.com’s cabbage boat song?
      I wrote one about Key/Banks/child poverty and sent it to Campbell live at least two weeks before his debuted. Nothing against the guy, but to say I was pissed was an understatement. Not just because my song was better 😉 but where his, in the politest way possible, was self serving, I wanted to release mine anonymously, all proceeds to feed hungry kids in Deanwell, Melville and Glenview in Hamilton. Still do, so I’m asking for help.
      I watched Campbell live’s pieces on child poverty and feeding kids in schools, knowing there have been several of my emails sitting in their inbox, asking for a bit of help to pull of a genuine attempt at doing, rather than talking. Never even had a reply of them. Not even a get fuc*ed. Must be a mediaworks thing.
      I posted a link and the lyrics on the PM’s Facebook site a while back, but I guess he didn’t want to help, either.
      Worst record ever made? Who cares? Who really cares?
      al1en.org
      The faeces of the species
      One more day, one more lie, one more smile, one more wave.
      Some old joke wants my vote = Aspirational fail.
      Did you see on TV? The third world disease on her face.
      Unlike me, all you see, are scabs not your first world disgrace.

      You’re the faecese of the species, you’re the disease, you’re the plague on the face of that girl.
      You’re the hunger, you’re the plunder, all assunder, heaven wonder if there’s oil on the moon (in our bones).
      You’re the statistic, optimistic, pessimist e-con-o-mystic, you’re the waste in the space.
      Merchant banker, supertanker, deep drill wanker, pull your anchor, just get out of the way.

      And we’ll rise. And when we rise up.
      We will sing, and we will be glorius.

      One more try, one more bribe, one more tea for your friend.
      Some old bloke on a rope while they bury his dead.
      Did you see on tv? The mould on kids in their bed.
      Unlike me, all you see, is dirt and the profits from rent.

      You’re the faecese of the species, you’re a disease, you’re a plague on the backs of us all.
      You’re the sadistic, little twisted, first world gifted, Mi-pad whizz kid, the foul wind in the sales.
      You’re the hunter, you’re the blunder, toxic numbers, six foot under, and you’re a slag to good grace.
      Mother cluster, bunker buster, colonel mustard, general custurd, just get out of our way.

      And we’ll rise. And when we rise up.
      We will sing, and we will be glorius.

  4. muzza 4

    The SFO, despite getting a guilty plea from disgraced criminal lawyer Anita Killee, has been left looking like a bunch of impotent cuckolds.

    Given that Killeen’s probably got a cabal of mates; including her very well connected hubby who is as we’ve already mentioned a senior partner at the law firm Simpson Grierson, as well as contacts in both the media, law society, judiciary her future in the legal profession will be assured.

    She will also obviously pick up a few more directorships on boards as well for obvious reasons (her propensity for fibbing and getting away with it is a good starter)

    This makes a mockery of the judicial system. I guess there are going to be a lot of very upset New Zealander’s out there…… criminal justice Ministers, perjurerous coppers, District Court Judges (convicted of fiddling their travel expenses) porn addicted High court judges…. Prosecutors convicted of crimes Act offences let off….It seems that Kiwi’s are really really getting the piss taken.

    It’s a crazy comedy in the New Zealand we all love to hate….”God defend New Zealand” because no one in the real world really gives a shit.

    Kiwis love it this way though, its built in that ignorance must be defended at all costs!

    • Andre 4.1

      Trite statistics are king Not justice or equity Its a” brighter future ” 9 out of 10 climate scintists agree….

  5. Morrissey 5

    BBC admits pandering to Israeli propaganda
    by Amena Saleem, The Electronic Intifada, London, 14 December 2012
    http://electronicintifada.net/content/bbc-admits-pandering-israeli-propaganda/12004

    One of the most consistent aspects of the BBC’s reporting of Gaza and Israel is the insistence of its journalists that any “outbreak of violence” is the fault of the Palestinians.

    When Israel bombs or shells Gaza, this is unfailingly reported by the BBC as being in “response” or “retaliation” to rockets being fired from the blockaded territory. The unflinching regularity of this one-sided reporting by the UK’s state broadcaster is meticulously recorded in More Bad News from Israel, the book by Greg Philo and Mike Berry which contains research by the Glasgow Media Unit into the BBC’s reporting of the occupation.

    The BBC’s coverage of Israel’s most recent assault on Gaza in November was no exception. An article published on the BBC’s website the day Hamas commander Ahmed al-Jabari was assassinated in an Israeli airstrike in Gaza City stated that the killing “follows a wave of rocket attacks against Israel from the territory” (“Israeli air strike kills Hamas military chief Jabari,” 14 November 2012).

    The article went on to feature an Israeli army spokesperson’s claim that al-Jabari had “a lot of blood on his hands” and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s assertion that a “clear message” had been sent to “Hamas and other terrorist organizations.” Netanyahu’s comments ended with the words: “We will continue to do everything to protect our citizens.”

    All of Israel’s key propaganda messages were conveyed, while the reality was carefully hidden. There is, of course, the ongoing reality that Israel is an occupier and a serial violator of international law — facts which are buried under the credibility and authority the BBC accords to its politicians and spokespeople and what they say.

    Ignoring reality
    On an immediate level, another crucial reality was ignored. By assassinating al-Jabari — itself an illegal act of extrajudicial murder which the BBC failed to examine, even as it printed Netanyahu’s triumphal “clear message” — Israel had violated a ceasefire brokered three days earlier.

    This information, so casually ditched by the BBC’s journalists — online, on television and on radio news — was absolutely crucial. It emboldened the lie, disseminated across the BBC’s media outlets, that al-Jabari’s killing and the eight-day onslaught that came next followed “a wave of rocket attacks” from Gaza.

    It didn’t. Al-Jabari’s assassination and the ensuing attack on Gaza which killed more than 160 Palestinians, including more than 30 children, followed a ceasefire, which the Palestinian groups in Gaza had been observing and may well have carried on observing if …..

    Read more….
    http://electronicintifada.net/content/bbc-admits-pandering-israeli-propaganda/12004

    • Populuxe1 5.1

      Again with the rabid Antisemitism? Reading motivations in the BBC like tea leaves

      • muzza 5.1.1

        Not sure there is any requirement to be able to read tea leaves, in order to spot the imbalance in the MSM around the world, including NZ. We can thank the AP/reuters network for ensuring this imbalance continues, on the same rabid path!

        Shalom

      • Draco T Bastard 5.1.2

        Pointing out that the MSM misrepresents the facts about the violence in the ME is anti-semitism?

      • mike 5.1.3

        Where’s the antisemitism? Weak.

        • Morrissey 5.1.3.1

          1.) “Where’s the antisemitism?”

          There is none, and the dolt knows it.

          2.) “Weak.”

          And depraved, dishonest and desperate. But, in the absence of an argument, it’s all the poor fellow has to offer.

      • Morrissey 5.1.4

        Our friend “Populuxe1” has again tried, unwisely, to be clever…
        1.) “Again with the rabid Antisemitism?”

        Criticism of an outlaw regime, a regime that is condemned by nearly every nation in the world, is “Antisemitism”?

        2.) “Reading motivations in the BBC like tea leaves”

        That article was a carefully and thoroughly researched piece of scholarly analysis. You can call it tealeaf reading if you like, but you’ve been discredited long ago on this forum, and nobody with any sense takes you seriously. (Anyone who thinks I am being uncharitable towards this dolt should check out his lunatic raving just the other day—Saturday—where he earnestly tries to make a case in support of the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.)

      • North 5.1.5

        Having falsely identified anti-semitism Pop, you come over all anti-anti-semitism. So rational, like a cat chasing its tail, not. Your entire premise is flawed but round and round you go. And you fancy that’s a response ???

        Thank you anyway for popping up as a perfect example of the lazy and the ignorant who are dispositionally vulnerable to the bias and falsehoods Morrissey is talking about.

        For Palestine – Justice The Seed Peace The Flower !

  6. Northshoreguynz 6

    The Dim Posts latest poll charts make for interesting viewing.

    “One of the end-of year refrains in political summaries is that National ‘held steady in the polls’ despite a terrible year. Well, they did hold pretty steady compared to the election result. But the polls all massively over-estimated National’s election result – if you compare current poll estimates with pre-election poll estimates then National is way down. (It looks like Roy Morgan may have corrected their methodology post-election, the other firms not so much.)”

    See for yourselves here, http://dimpost.wordpress.com/2012/12/18/ho-ho-ho-heres-a-poll-chart/#more-14008

    • bad12 6.1

      The smart money has Slippery’s National Government at 39% and tracking downward, given that the Maori Party seats currently held by both Flavell and Sharples are far from ‘safe’ with 1500 and 1000 vote majority’s respectively it is far from a sure thing that National could form a Government even with the (unlikely???), help of NZ First who (laughably), the main stream polling organizations still consign to less than 5% of the vote,

      Labour of course are far from a shoe-in to form the next Government with a % of the vote at 34% a majority Labour Government would require a Green/NZFirst buy-in, it’s a long haul till November 2014 tho and if the trends continue i would expect that by election time Labour and National are going to be level pegging in terms of Party %’s…

      • McFliper 6.1.1

        If labour is regularly tracking at 34% in mid 2014 (unless the greens are regularly at 20%) I’d be a bit concerned. If they manage to build another regular 5% in 2013, like they did in 2012, a leftish government would be on track. But we need Mana and the Greens to provide some real flavour to the Labour sponge cake.

  7. Colonial Weka 7

    Following on from Karol’s series of critiques of how the MSM portrays and promotes Russell Norman as the leader of the GP, can the Standard authors please find an alternate picture to use for posts here that show both Meteria and Norman?
     
    The one in vogue at the moment is a very nice picture of Russell Norman, but alongside a post headline about a Green Party policy it’s just wrong. Yes, Norman made the particular announcement, but he is not the GP.

    • Northshoreguynz 7.1

      With all their favourable press, their polling seems pretty static, and not trending up. If they were the default opposition as some would have us believe, surely they should be rating above 11%.

      • Napkins 7.1.1

        Is being the “default opposition” like an honourary title that some political party can take for granted? And expect to retain without continuous hard work? Which by the way the Greens and their members are doing in spades.
        All through the 2010 and 2011 Roy Morgans the Green Party was typically sitting between 7% and 8%. Now that figure is bouncing around 12% and 13%. Will they cross 15% on a regular basis by 2014? Yes that’s very likely.

      • Dr Terry 7.1.2

        Unfortunately high intelligence is not a noted feature among New Zealanders. Average intelligence anywhere is about 100 (far from high), and this being the average necessitates many being below or well below even the average. The Greens appeal to intelligence, but it takes something else to make them popular.

    • felixviper 7.2

      +1 CW (and Karol)

      • karol 7.3.1

        Thanks, r0b, and weka.

        • Colonial Weka 7.3.1.1

          Thanks r0b. I tried looking for a good photo of the two of them and didn’t have much luck. The Greens are dropping the ball here.

      • King Kong 7.3.2

        Come on. Metiria has put on at least 30kg since that was taken.

        • karol 7.3.2.1

          So?  What does that have to do with poltitcal performance?  
           
          BTW, according to his doctor, John Key is now a couple of kilos over weight.  Anything to say on that, or Gerry Brownlee, or is it just women MPs that get your kind of comment?

          • King Kong 7.3.2.1.1

            Being clinically obese means you are greedy, lazy and have no self control. Not good traits for our Nations leaders. And you are right, Brownlee definately falls into this category however Turei coming from a party who is all about every one having their proper share and not taking more than you need to makes the irony greater.

            • karol 7.3.2.1.1.1

              Being clinically obese means you are greedy, lazy and have no self control. 
               
              [Citation needed]

              • King Kong

                Of course, she has a gland problem

                [lprent: So do you. Your balls appear to be running your brain ]

                • King Kong

                  Or was it that she was inappropriately touched by a lamington when she was young.

                  • bad12

                    You are pretty much a sick little puppy and i wonder why your contribution is allowed at all except for the fact that it shows you up for being a sick little puppy…

                    [lprent: Because he usually tends to be careful about violating the policy.

                    That means he doesn’t get too many of these wee notes (any more) and therefore doesn’t waste moderators time without reason. We tend to cut him some slack (as we do for all regular commentators) for the odd times that they go too far over the edge.

                    BTW: saying something that is an explicit or implicit question about the site policies does tend to attract moderators, so reading the policy appears to be a good idea… ]

                    • Colonial Weka

                      I guess this is the relevant part of the policy
                       

                      This includes making assertions that you are unable to substantiate with some proof (and that doesn’t mean endless links to unsubstantial authorities) or even argue when requested to do so.
                       

                      I look forward to reading KK’s back up for the assertion that “Being clinically obese means you are greedy, lazy and have no self control.” I also look forward to his evidence that Turei is clinically obese. Clinically obese is a medical term, so we’re going to see some substantial medical proof.
                       
                      Otherwise his post looks like flaming to me. It’s the equivalent of him saying “Being Maori means you are greedy, lazy and have no self control.” Or “being a fat woman means you are useless”. 

                      While I think there might be some use to exposing his misogyny (along the lines of bad’s point), it’s also tiring and often boring having to do so. I guess we might get some interesting debate from it, we’ll see.
                       

                    • Rhinoviper

                      Pah!  Sexuality is for pussies!  I mean dicks!  I mean, uh, whatever.  I’ve transcended that biological nonsense.  I don’t even use meiosis, let alone mitosis!  Yes, I use mimesis!  No, better than that: memesis! Hah!  I see your enormous imaginary penis and raise you my insidious propagandising of innocent youth in university tutorials!
                       
                      I am infinitely, intellectually, transcendently fertile!
                       
                      Bwhahahhahahahah!1!!!1!!ELEVENTEEN1111!!!!

                • Colonial Weka

                  Further to Lynn’s mod point above, let’s see some back-up for your intentionally offensive assertion KK.
                   
                  Specifically:
                   
                  Show evidence that Turei is ‘clinically obese’.
                   
                  Show evidence that Turei’s weight has an impact on her job performance.
                   
                  Show evidence that “Being clinically obese means you are greedy, lazy and have no self control”.
                   
                  I mean, we all know that you are just being a misogynistic trool, but let’s play along and see what you can come up with.

                  • King Kong

                    “Show evidence that Turei is ‘clinically obese’.”

                    Turei is clinically obese. Now only her doctor will be able to confirm this to the level of proof you will require but any normal person who has seen her in the flesh recently will tell you that she is the size of Jabba the Hutt so it is a pretty fair assumption that the she is clinically obese.

                    “Show evidence that Turei’s weight has an impact on her job performance.”

                    When she was smaller she managed to work her way up through the party and made enough of an impression to be made co leader. Since she has started piling it on her ability has been questioned a bit more and Russell Norman has been doing all the heavy lifting. Not incredibly scientific I know.

                    “Show evidence that “Being clinically obese means you are greedy, lazy and have no self control”.”

                    Of course this is the case. Being massively fat means you eat way too much (greedy) don’t exercise enough (lazy) and even though you look like a disgrace, won’t stop doing what you are doing (lack of self control).
                    Being poor, depressed, alienated etc may be the reasons behind the greed, laziness and lack of self contol but these things are the certainly the fundementals of the problem.

                    • karol

                      Being massively fat means you eat way too much (greedy) don’t exercise enough (lazy) and even though you look like a disgrace, won’t stop doing what you are doing (lack of self control).
                       
                      Age is a factor. Many people put on weight as they age: whether it’s John key, Brownlee or Turei.  I notice I don’t need as much food as I did when I was younger, even though I seem to be just as busy and doing just as much exercise as before.    And I think for some of us, our bodies become less efficient at processing fast foods and processed foods.  I eat much less of those sorts of foods now for that reason.
                       
                      It isn’t about laziness or working less hard.  In fact, I know a middle-aged man or two who put on weight when they are working at their hardest: less time for exercise, and a tendency to eat less healthy food on the run – less energy left over for getting focused on health issues.  Not to mention, in some professional jobs, fancy food is the centre of many work-related gatherings.

                    • Ennui in Requiem Mass for CV

                      KK I have this hazy memory that in a previous life I made the mistake of stating that a large overweight lady (silly step number one mentioning weight) who was IMHO starving children should be able to be referred to as “fat” (silly provocative act number two) because she had the ability to choose what her weight was (silly argument perhaps). For this KK I was thrust by the earthly guardians of political correctness into the gulag at a trial with rabid commissars convinced like Grand Inquisitors of the sanctity of their mission (hey I might be guilty but in the case of “fat” statements punishment and crime dont match, you are better doing white collar fraud), it is sort of a hyper crime. At that point Purgatory offered itself as a viable option. Being dead is quite preferable. Be warned, dont go there.

                    • Colonial Weka

                      Yeah that’s what I thought King Kong. You’re just asserting bigotry as fact and cannot back any of it up because it’s all bullshit.
                       
                      You don’t like fatness and attribute it to moral failings because that suits your prejudice. Why not just be honest?

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Hmmmm, I’m no trick cyclist, but does anybody else think that its likely that KK is 20-30kg overweight himself and just lashing out as a form of transference based on his own depression and self loathing?

                    • muzza

                      It isn’t about laziness or working less hard. In fact, I know a middle-aged man or two who put on weight when they are working at their hardest: less time for exercise, and a tendency to eat less healthy food on the run – less energy left over for getting focused on health issues. Not to mention, in some professional jobs, fancy food is the centre of many work-related gatherings.

                      This actually explains what is so very wrong with the environments, and how is it possible to expect people to function well under such conditions. Able bodied people can make time for self respect, like eating well and exercising, sleep etc, under most circumstances.

                      Choosing not to, is a conscious decision!

                    • King Kong

                      I think you will find that a surplus of calories in than expended causes fat gain in humans. That calorie imbalance only happens one way.

                      This is science not bigotry.

                    • Colonial Weka

                      “I think you will find that a surplus of calories in than expended causes fat gain in humans. That calorie imbalance only happens one way.
                      This is science not bigotry.”
                       
                      [citation needed]
                       
                      Because that’s not what the science says. Even at the most basic level, the calories in/calories out theory just isn’t true – there are other factors at play in how nutrients get metabolised and what happens to metabolism when people expend energy. The science shows that weight gain is the result of many complex metabolic processes. For some people, the relationship between caloric intake/exercise and weight is fairly straight forward and so they can rely on the calorie in/out idea. But for many others, it just doesn’t work that way, biologically.
                       
                      For instance it’s normal and natural for women in their 40s to put on weight in preparation for menopause (women with fat do better in menopause than thin women). Weight gain is also a consequence of exposure to prolonged stress. And Maori women are more at risk because they are not as genetically adapted to the high carb modern diet.
                      People with insulin resistance are biologically going to have a harder time losing weight or maintaining a weight considered healthy by contemporary standards. But then we don’t know what a healthy weight is because the goal posts have shifted so much. Despite what you’ve seen on teevee it’s possible to be ‘fat’ and healthy.
                       
                      So, yes, in the absence of any actual evidence that “being clinically obese means you are greedy, lazy and have no self control.” (and “I said so does not equal evidence), you are just spouting your own nasty, ill-informed bigotry.
                       

                    • King Kong

                      Sounds like you might struggle saying no to the family bucket yourself and are looking for something to blame.

                      “It was my metabolism that meant they had to cut me out of my house”.

                      Anyway I don’t think we were talking about middle aged birds putting on a bit of frump. We are talking about being a serious Billy Bunter.

                    • McFliper

                      Of course, idle speculation drawing together a certain obsession with calling people grossly obese and the choice as one’s nom d’écume of the name of a massively oversized and somewhat portly ape does tend to suggest that our friendly gorilla has their own issues with body image insecurity.

                    • King Kong

                      Is it the experience with your undersized sex organs that led you to that conclusion.

                      fwiw. As a naturally envious people, you lefties would be sick with jealousy if you could see the outstanding genetic hand I got dealt.

                    • David Viperious H

                      And you are a brain dead moron KK. Being poor, depressed, alienated etc may be the reasons behind the Brain Death, but these things are the certainly the fundementals of the problem.

                    • Dr Terry

                      KK – I am glad to see you acknowledge not being “incredibly scientific” (to put it mildly!) Apparantly we are to conclude that you yourself contain all of the great virtues which you deny larger persons. Have you performed miracles? If so, make it known to the Vatican, sainthood might be coming your way! On the other hand, possibly you will continue growing in egotism.
                      You have the gall to state “Turei is clinically obese” – how do you know her doctor’s diagnosis? How do you know, for that matter, what is a “normal person”? (I guess you provide yourself for this criteria). Having stated that Turei is “clinically obese”, that is as a fact, later you say that “it is a pretty fair assumption that she is clinically obese”! You have moved your ground, and are virtually guilty of self-contradiction.
                      But, having very little by way of self-awareness (I suggest you read Socrates), you then have the superlative hide to enquire “Show evidence that Turei’s weight has an impact on her performance.” All the evidence anybody could ever require is there to see and examine. I suggest that you take a dispassionate look; then you will find no negative impact on her performance whatsoever.
                      KK – do you ever feel embarrassed? Well, it is about time that you did!

                    • McFliper

                      In my experience, folks who tend to be proud of their genetic advantage tend to be somewhat delusional, but with some vicious little subconscious insecurities that suggest the delusion goes only so deep.

                    • mike

                      Why is this tr0ll being feed?

                    • QoTViper

                      KK, you’re full of shit. And look, I can even provide citations to back up my claims. Would you like to try it?

                    • King Kong

                      If we are just using some muppet on a blog as citations then I will use this

                    • Colonial Weka

                      Nice link KK  (snigger).

                    • Colonial Weka

                      Ok, now that we’ve spent the day establishing that King Kong is a fat-phobic bigot and trool, who can’t make even a half-hearted attempt to back up his prejudices, what do we do next?

                      ETA: couldn’t resist: QoT’s muppet on a blog citations

                      http://junkfoodscience.blogspot.co.nz/2006/11/introduction-and-why-i-created-this.html

                      vs KK’s

                      http://www.yourefatbecauseyourestupid.com/contact/

                      I can see why you’re confused KK, you seem to have no idea what science is or what evidence is.

            • felixviper 7.3.2.1.1.2

              Oh wow, another right-wing bigot!

              What a day!

            • Dr Terry 7.3.2.1.1.3

              KK – no surprises here, we get your usual discriminatory gabble (about the obese). Generous of you to make an exception of Brownlee!

            • Morrissey 7.3.2.1.1.4

              “Being clinically obese means…”

              What about being clinically ignorant, like you are? What does that mean?

            • North 7.3.2.1.1.5

              So Brownlee’s girth renders his politics unimpeachable and him a sincere non-politicking fiduciary of our democracy ? What planet are you on ? Bad Question Sorry.

              This is the same bullshit Norman Kirk got 40 years ago – “……can’t be trusted to lead the nation ‘cos he can’t even control his own weight…..nah nah nah nah nah……”.

              The wahanui irrelevancies of people who just know they gotta have a say. About whatever, whenever, and from whatever ignorant, facile base they spring.

              To wit – Mr King Kong.

          • ak 7.3.2.1.2

            (as kids back in the dark ages we used to have a joke about removing five pounds of ugly fat, but in this case I doubt it would make the weight requirement…)

      • karol 7.3.3

        And if you’re there r0b, the spelling of “stupidty” [sic], in your latest post?
        Easily done – I really need those red underlines when I’m typing, but I don’t think they show under Post titles.

    • veutoviper 7.4

      Good point CW.

      Not a criticism of you and I note several other comments by others on other posts here today have also mispelled Norman’s first name, but it is “Russel” not “Russell”.

      [I am having a very nitpicking/pedantic day today – comes from having a battle with a certain Australian bank at present which includes on the wording of one of their online pieces of information related to the battle! I will get over it – but have finally won the battle. I will have won the war only when certain funds are transferred into my account …..]

  8. DH 8

    The final Deloitte report on the Winz kiosks was released a while back, anyone interested can find it here;

    http://www.msd.govt.nz/documents/about-msd-and-our-work/newsroom/media-releases/2012/independent-review-deloitte.pdf

    Probably won’t mean much to non-IT people, the report is a big wad of fluff. The long & short of it is that parties un-named didn’t follow the most basic principles of network security. Any decent network admin could have told them that & saved the taxpayer about $380,000.

    • McFliper 8.1

      Why does this government keep paying for pre-deployment testing, and then ignores the results and rolls it out anyway?
      Sigh

      • DH 8.1.1

        Another question is why the Govt engages these vastly overpaid consultants to perform a pointless exercise that really only served to whitewash the upper management of culpability. $400k of taxpayers money pissed against the wall.

        • McFliper 8.1.1.1

          actually, reading the kiosk report suggests to me that the real problem was that everyone did “their” bit, but nobody was looking at the entire thing. The testing brought up security issues (contractor did their bit), the security issues were resolved by ordering secure routers for each kiosk (IT security did their bit, although averaging “rare” probability with “severe” consequence into “moderate” risk seems unwise), the router order went to IT Network staff, the order wasn’t flagged as security-critical, along the line the network plan got changed and the (network)-redundant routers never got ordered (IT network did their job providing the network, though), and nobody had the job of going back and making sure that all identified issues had actually been resolved, rather than being ticked of lists in meetings. 
                    
          A management clusterfuck, 100%. It doesn’t seem to be the case of any single incompetent individual, but is more a case of a number of units that seemed to work well together but there was no overall management. The engines were working, the navigator knew where they were but was in a separate room, the helmsman could steer the ship but couldn’t see anything, the bow lookout could see the rocks but couldn’t be heard from the wheelhouse, and there was no captain who could put everything together and stop the oil tanker running aground.

          • DH 8.1.1.1.1

            Personally I’m leaning more towards incompetence somwhere in the chain there. The security holes that Keith Ng exploited to browse the network can be disabled with a few clicks of the mouse in group policy editor. They knew about the problem and yet they did nothing about an issue that could have been fixed in less time than it took me to write this. There’s no excuses for that, even if they were sidetracked by plans to make bigger changes later it still doesn’t explain why they didn’t implement a simple fix in the meantime.

            • McFliper 8.1.1.1.1.1

              the report is fascinating. It really does point out that one team identified the issue, put it on the “to do” list for another team, but the other team ignored the apparently redundant “to do” when they upgraded their plans. Classic handover cockup.

              • DH

                That’s the way they paint it but it doesn’t wash. When an interim fix is that easy, and important, you don’t put it on a ‘to do’ list. You fix it straight away. These people are supposed to be professionals here, when someone finds a fault in your network you sure as hell don’t ignore it or forget about it.

                • McFliper

                  depends if the same people at the first meeting were still working on the project at the second meeting.

        • North 8.1.1.2

          Same with the Put-It-In-The-Binnie-Report.

          LOL internationally noted jurist Endora Girl Judy of Clevedon doesn’t like its contents so we have
          $400K diverted down the drain as the price of Baroness Judy playing internal National Party politics.

          I thought public funding of partisan politics was circumscribed. Seems not. What about partisan internecine politics ? Again seems not with this government of higher standards LOL.

  9. Are the elite bugging out? Hey dumbarse elite the moons not far enough!!!

    The difference between pink floyd and gary larsen is worth the read – dark or far side – hadn’t really thought about that before.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/science/space/probes-will-crash-into-the-moons-dark-not-far-side-today.html?_r=0

  10. One Tāne Viper 10

    Stuff breaking news: Supreme Court giving the Maori Council right to appeal 🙂

    • veutoviper 10.1

      Great news.

      Just because I am a nit picker and pedantic, I note that the Stuff and Herald articles give opposite dates for the deadlines for filing submissions:

      Stuff

      “The council and iwi – represented by the Waikato River Dams Claim Trust – have until the end of the week to prepare their case, while the respondents have until January 18.

      The respondents include the Attorney General, Minister of Finance and Minister of State Owned Enterprises. ”

      whereas the Herald states:

      “The respondents – the attorney-general, finance minister and state-owned enterprises minister have until 1pm on Friday to file their case.

      The appellants, the council and the Waikato River and Dams Claim Trust have until January 18 to file their submissions.”

      Sloppy reporting on one or the other’s part.

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10854793

      • karol 10.1.1

        a tweet from Scoop this this link to the PDF document with the actual ruling.  The respondents are the government ones.
         
        A: Leave to appeal, and to appeal direct to this Court, is granted.
        B: The approved ground of appeal is whether the High Court was
        right to dismiss the application for review.
        C: The respondents will prepare the case on appeal and will file and
        serve it by 1.00 pm on Friday 21 December 2012.
        D: The appellants are to file and serve their written submissions by
        4.00 pm on 18 January 2013.
        E: The respondents are to file their written submissions in 4.00 pm on 25 January 2013.
        F: The Court will hear the appeal on 31 January and 1 February
        2013.
        G: Leave is reserved to the parties to apply for further directions
        should they be required.

  11. Draco T Bastard 11

    The Gift of Death

    The fatuity of the products is matched by the profundity of the impacts. Rare materials, complex electronics, the energy needed for manufacture and transport are extracted and refined and combined into compounds of utter pointlessness. When you take account of the fossil fuels whose use we commission in other countries, manufacturing and consumption are responsible for more than half of our carbon dioxide production(2). We are screwing the planet to make solar-powered bath thermometers and desktop crazy golfers.

    As I’ve said, free-market capitalism must result in the over-use of resources and the destruction of the environment. Our politicians just won’t see it though and the MSM will never report on it.

    • Populuxe1 11.1

      Behold! Grumpycat!

    • Andre 11.2

      The Gift of Death Would make a cracking read , but the ending is predictable .but only the last page is it clear…….

    • To Draco Post 11 And what stops your post from being common-knowledge? Is the meme of self-interest. We must get rid of this meme and see it for the dinosaur-of-an-excuse for effective-philosophical understanding that it is. Our strength as a human-race is our intelligence and co-operation. The self-interest meme by-passes our greatest qualities and disallows the type of wide perspective we require to address the negative wider-consequences of our collective actions that we face today. Great to see you still posting Draco T Bastard (allbeit not as frequently) I miss CV’s comments and am greatful to you (both) for posting your insights. It takes a long time to shift group views into more enlightened ways of thinking and I’m sure you’ve added a great deal to that cause, for which I thank you 🙂

  12. vto 13

    The most nutty thing in New Zealand this afternoon is the fact that all these Education Ministry people are still arseing around trying to get a computer program to pay their employees.

    How utterly abysmal. It is classic evidence of the limitations of current technology.

    Why not get a person to do it for each school? YOu could even have one person do a few different schools. And seeing as how no doubt everything needs to be ‘uploaded’ anyway, why not just ‘upload’ it once to your pay clerk? It would certainly be quicker than uploading and phoning and emailing and chasing and still not working.

    It is in fact exactly like eftpos, a complete waste of time. Slow and useless.

    We each have the best computer in existence inside of our skulls – why not use that computer? Plus you can get it for less than slave wages today, if you can pay the minimum wage. How many novapay employees are on slave wages?

    • McFliper 13.1

      Actually, the idea is that a team of say three plus computers can do the payrolls for say 30 schools (actual numbers may vary from these ad hoc informal benchmarks arrived at heuristically using ex posteriori methodologies).
           
      Just like EFTPOS limits the amount of cash tallied at the end of the day.
           
      Most electronic payroll systems work much more efficiently from initial implementation than the current debacle.  

      • AwakeWhileSleeping 13.1.1

        The problem is it is still looks to be in idea stage.
        Anyone know if there are sites taking bets on the outcomes of Novopay? Feelin lucky : )

        • McFliper 13.1.1.1

          Novopay is running one on the side. A $1 bet at 7:3 collected the next day pays NZ$428577.5511 and a zloty.
           

          • Napkins 13.1.1.1.1

            Datacom, a home grown NZ company, used to do the job OK didn’t they? I guess this is just the price of “progress”.

  13. rod 14

    National Government back in surplus by 2014, by kind donations of New Zealand motorists. Great thinking Bill.

    • McFliper 14.1

      aren’t they saying “2014/15” now? Nice way to tack a year or two onto their performance targets without anyone noticing.

      • QoTViper 14.1.1

        “Oh shit, did you think we meant a calendar year? We meant a financial year, obvs.”

        “Oh sorry, did you think we said financial year? We meant calendar year, give us six more months.”

        Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

  14. dpalenski 15

    Interesting piece on special schools.
     

    Are special schools for children with intellectual disabilities better at teaching those children than mainstream schools? Dr Jude MacArthur is a researcher based in Dunedin, working in the area of education and disability for Massey University. Trish Grant is Director of Advocacy at IHC.
     

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon

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