Open mike 19/03/2023

Written By: notices and features - Date published: 6:00 am, March 19th, 2023 - 77 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

77 comments on “Open mike 19/03/2023 ”

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AB 1

19 March 2023 at 11:50 am

One has to admire Novara's ability to find clever, thoughtful people as commentators. Here Shon Faye (a transwoman) does a take on the word "woke". She says that woke was never meant to be a "substantive concept", instead it is a deliberate "ellipsis" a "vacuum" into which you can pour or project anything. The resulting contradictions do not matter to the people using or hearing it – because it serves the purpose of appealing to emotions. She says the nearest parallel would be word "zeitgeist" as used by fascists (to convey horror, fear and disgust).

There is of course a left use of the word "woke" – which criticises the liberal tendency to prioritise identity over class. It might be a good idea to find a substitute word for this phenomenon – given the contamination of "woke" by the right.
- joe90 1.1
  
  19 March 2023 at 12:26 pm
  
  A watchword from 30's 'Murica.
  
  Fourscore and three years ago, Huddie “Lead Belly” Ledbetter—a self-titled “musicianer” who was heralded as a “Bad Nigger” who “makes good minstrel” by Life magazine—explained how he came to create one of the first racism* carols. Named after nine young Black men who had been falsely accused of raping two white women, “Scottsboro Boys” was a protest and a warning to Black people about the evil that awaited anyone who dared traverse the borders of Alabama. At the end of the song, he told the story of meeting two of the wrongly convicted men and—just before the recording faded into silence—the legendary singer coined a phrase that would become a clarion call to Black America until white people discovered it eight decades later.
  
  “I advise everybody to be a little careful when they go down through there,” Lead Belly said of Alabama. “Just stay woke. Keep your eyes open.”
  
  https://www.theroot.com/weaponizing-woke-an-brief-history-of-white-definitions-1848031729
  - aj 1.1.1
    
    19 March 2023 at 2:10 pm
    
    Leadbelly using that word with the only meaning it has, that I will recognise.
- SPC 1.2
  
  19 March 2023 at 4:17 pm
  
  Sure, a different way of seeing the world (being woke, after the dream about how a democratic people could remake the world to how it could be), than that of an existing conservative order, was seen as threatening to those loyal to it.
  
  In the 1930's German Weimar Republic liberalism and various groups (Christian) conservative and fascist were (zeitgeist) moral reactionary forces in resistance. The idea of empowered (democratic) humanity with social economic and political equality in citizenship, was against the concept of some divine moral or conservative regime national order that humanity had to be (remain) in obedience to.
  
  Some have since categorised it as idealism vs world reality when rejecting gender identity.
  
  And since then some communitarian anarchists (such as Russell Brand) have aligned with libertarians against modern nation state government (basically joined the Tea Party movement).
  - SPC 1.2.1
    
    19 March 2023 at 4:29 pm
    
    Their language is based on the title of a book
    
    ‘Why England Slept” by JFK about the slowness of England to respond to the threat posed by fascist Germany (one about the USA would have been too controversial) and of course his speech in Berlin about resistance to communism.
    
    PS And for black Americans
- Macro 1.3
  
  19 March 2023 at 4:41 pm
  
  There was an excellent Opinion piece on the Guardian a couple of days back on this very topic
  
  Conservatives hate wokeness. Don’t trigger them by asking what it means
  
  …
  
  https://twitter.com/vanguard_pod/status/1635749284355211264?cxt=HHwWgIC8udfTrLMtAAAA
  
  The right’s co-opting of the word “woke” and the way it uses it to distort debate and camouflage bigotry is nothing new. Conservatives have always been very good at wringing words dry of their meaning and repurposing them strategically. “The elite”, for example, now means anyone with an education and not billionaires like Donald Trump. “Pro-life” means forcing women to give birth. Teaching kids about slavery has been rebranded as “critical race theory”. Far too often liberals don’t push back on these phrases and start using them themselves. Gray’s interaction with Mandel shows that simply asking conservatives to be clear about what on earth they’re talking about can be surprisingly effective.
Visubversa 2

19 March 2023 at 12:19 pm

Just to get you started!

"No objective evidence exists that “gender identity” exists outside of a person’s mind. Transition “medicine” relies on self-reported feelings for diagnosis and satisfaction with appearance for measuring results. Ka-ching, profit!

“Gender identity” does not even have something like the E-meter that can pretend to detect or measure it. As a practical matter, there is more actual science for the ‘body thetans’ of L. Ron Hubbard than for ‘gender identity’ as a coherent material phenomenon."

https://www.thedistancemag.com/p/10000000-challenge-build-a-machine?fbclid=IwAR0ZRAhaJ_YLhRGhJGkDb2IPCbf_FrynTZ6OvxccGABQ1dYVjIRd8w5fQUk
Shanreagh 3

19 March 2023 at 12:25 pm

I never use the word 'woke' and I don't expect to see it in more serious discussion. If it had a meaning, it does not now and it is used as a pejorative now. I liken it to the phrase 'PC' when it was used in the 1990s.

I also don't think the left should be concerned only with class, that has always seemed inherently limiting, (shriek, shock, horror).

I don't really mind how issues are raised and I don't really care if an issue is raised from a liberal mindset. I am not about to criticise how it is raised if I agree that the issue raised has merit.

PC hid much anti women, pro racism 'stuff'. It was a shorthand for I don't want to modify anything I do even if it sexist or racist.

So issues based concerns have merit, we don't need to find some sort of shorthand pejorative to describe them. We certainly do not need to push concerns aside by saying they don't fit a class narrative.

Thinking deeply now about how the left is missing in action when talking about issues of genital males being in women's only spaces, rape crisis centres, counselling, lesbian places. How does fit a class narrative?
- weka 3.1
  
  19 March 2023 at 12:50 pm
  
  Jane Clare Jones is a good read for a left wing, feminist perspective on the three classes (sex, socioeconomic, race). When we treat sex as a class of oppression, we have an analysis for understanding women's rights as something that cannot be dismissed as identity politics.
  
  Woke was originally a term used by Black Americans to describe political consciousness. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke
  - Shanreagh 3.1.1
    
    19 March 2023 at 1:02 pm
    
    Thanks Weka. I was aware of how it started. Will brush up on class aspect.
    
    I admit I have come at the left from a different starting point, from feminism, anti racism and equal opportunities for all, then a view of where on the political spectrum these are best progressed.
    
    From there my analysis says that Govt has to lead, so legislation as a backstop at the very least. and with the need for legislation to be actively administered the cries of 'small govt' have no place.
Shanreagh 4

19 March 2023 at 12:49 pm

I liked the concept Shon that woke is a kind of bucket into which all sorts of 'scary' things are placed. I also like the view that attacking the word/concept is difficult. How do you counter it? It is about as difficult as tackling the issues such as anti vaxx views. particularly the ones about magnets, world domination etc as opposed to concerns about health efficacy.

With PC Human Rights supporters found that a basis had to be in legislation.

Legislation is always either an backstop or an important step forward in progress. This is why, in my view, we need to maintain the Christchurch Call, work on Hate Speech etc. We need to work on multiple fronts and keep our legislation up to date and pointy.

It is also why on the left we are best to be explicit in framing the issues that the RW-ers are throwing into the 'woke' bucket. Finding another word to replace woke does not work for me.
joe90 5

19 March 2023 at 1:08 pm

Despicable cretins.

https://twitter.com/cscnme/status/1635655904568791040

https://www.vice.com/en/article/pkayeg/ivermectin-kids-autism
- Shanreagh 5.1
  
  19 March 2023 at 1:30 pm
  
  Blurred vision for two months? OMG. For autism OMG.
  
  Poor kids.
- RedLogix 5.2
  
  19 March 2023 at 2:06 pm
  
  You are aware that medical errors are considered the third leading category of death in the US? In the order of 250,000 in 2013 alone? Why do you not condemn this? Or call out all doctors "despicable cretins"?
  
  Or that overdosing on commonplace OTC medicines happens far too often? We ingest stupid drugs like alcohol, and our diets are full of dangerous sugars and refined oils that cause a myriad of illnesses and shorten our lives. People do stupid things all the time.
  
  And even with good intentions there is literally nothing good that someone will not take to an extreme and turn into something harmful as in this case. Yet Ivermectin is a drug that has perhaps the safest profile of anything we have discovered. Literally billions of human doses have been administered over decades – with an astonishingly low rate of harm. The fact of these desperate parents grossly overdosing their daughter, probably by several orders of magnitude – yet remarkably she is still alive – is a powerful testament to how safe ivermectin actually is, even when absurdly abused.
  
  And given how extensively Ivermectin is used as a human medicine, mis-characterising it as "horse de-wormer" or "pet medicine" is blatantly dishonest.
  
  Our collective understanding of how life works, of why so many ailments and diseases occur and how best to manage them is still very much in it's early stages. There remains so much we do not know and some humility in the light of that fact would go a long way to lowering the fevered temperature of so much of these debates.
  - Shanreagh 5.2.1
    
    19 March 2023 at 2:58 pm
    
    My concern is that misguided people are administering an OTC medicine to children until their children have blurred vision and keep doing so until this clears at about a 'couple of months'.
    
    Reading down the article it seems that this is being used on children with autism. An anti worm medicine is being used on children with behavioural problems, it reminds me of exorcisms etc.
  - Adrian Thornton 5.2.2
    
    19 March 2023 at 4:02 pm
    
    "And given how extensively Ivermectin is used as a human medicine, mis-characterising it as "horse de-wormer" or "pet medicine" is blatantly dishonest"….+1
    
    RL, haven't you noticed (I am sure you must have) that Joe90 just regurgitates, pretty much verbatim, all Western Liberal MSM talking points, no matter how outrageous…this is merely one more slimy lump in that endless steaming rotting stream of propaganda….shit this guy would probably still defend the Trump/Russia collusion conspiracy today, given half the chance….a filthy hoax I might add, that helped in no small way, lay the ground work that has led to 100,000 dead Ukraine lives and at least as many Russian, in the Russia/US proxy war that we are all sadly, impotently watching unfold before us today.
    
    [Your thirst for taking shots at others, be it journalists, media outlets or other commenters, has no bounds. You have been warned about this so many times and last time you were banned for one month. Yet, here we are again with you taking a shot at another commenter that shows zero respect, lacks any redeeming political comment or opinion, and is off-topic. Ban doubled to two months – Incognito]
    - SPC 5.2.2.1
      
      19 March 2023 at 4:05 pm
      
      Classy comment, on topic, about the issue.
    - Incognito 5.2.2.2
      
      19 March 2023 at 5:22 pm
      
      Mod note
  - joe90 5.2.3
    
    19 March 2023 at 4:42 pm
    
    The need to improve medical practices is relevant to idiots harming their kids?
  - Francesca 5.2.4
    
    19 March 2023 at 5:03 pm
    
    Red Logix
    So pleased to again be reading your well written , logical and fair comments
    - hetzer 5.2.4.1
      
      19 March 2023 at 5:14 pm
      
      In a sea of dim bulb comments i can only agree Francesca
  - Muttonbird 5.2.5
    
    19 March 2023 at 5:35 pm
    
    The very short article you link to was woefully bereft of proper analysis.
    
    In their study, the researchers examined four separate studies that analyzed medical death rate data from 2000 to 2008. Then, using hospital admission rates from 2013, they extrapolated that based on a total of 35,416,020 hospitalizations, 251,454 deaths stemmed from a medical error, which the researchers say now translates to 9.5 percent of all deaths each year in the U.S.
    
    How? It doesn't say.
    
    In the absence of a proper report it must be assumed this is yet another conspiracy theory promoted by people suspicious of the medical profession ie, anti-vaxxers.
    
    Ivermectin damaging children after being prescribed by their lunatic parents only happens because unqualified cranks continue to promote its benefits (to horses) online.
    - SPC 5.2.5.1
      
      19 March 2023 at 5:44 pm
      
      It's by John Hopkins, is quite serious work
      
      The researchers caution that most medical errors aren't due to inherently bad doctors, and that reporting these errors shouldn't be addressed by punishment or legal action. Rather, they say, most errors represent systemic problems, including poorly coordinated care, fragmented insurance networks, the absence or underuse of safety nets, and other protocols, in addition to unwarranted variation in physician practice patterns that lack accountability.
      
      Fragmented insurance networks – people without insurance, lack of early intervention …
      
      Medical error, appears to mean a failure of the health system to operate effectively.
      - Muttonbird 5.2.5.1.1
        
        19 March 2023 at 5:48 pm
        
        All good, but is it factored in that the people presenting to hospital are already at serious risk by dint of presenting to hospital?
        
        We don't know because John Hopkins didn't say in detail how they arrived at their conclusion.
        
        At least we don't know from the very scant of information article Redlogix based his argument on. That did not stop RL presenting it as fact in his defence of veterinary medicine, Ivermectin.
        
        SPC 5.2.5.1.1.1
        
        19 March 2023 at 5:52 pm
        
        Sure, the article does not explain the modelling used.
        
        Those presenting without insurance may not receive the best care, and there may be an influence from pharma on care offered/practice etc.
        
        One can note atm, post pandemic lockdown and vaccination, a number of countries have higher than normal death rates. There is speculation as to the why and a range of answers are tentatively suggested.
        
        (warning RL will respond to calling ivermectin a veterinary medicine when it has been prescribed for use to millions of humans and when used in that way has been quite safe)
        
        Muttonbird …
        
        19 March 2023 at 6:00 pm
        
        It is the self prescription which is the issue, isn't it? Few medicines are happily self prescribed without heavy online encouragement.
        
        Best leave it to trained doctors, eh.
        
        Shanreagh …
        
        19 March 2023 at 7:17 pm
        
        Best leave it to trained doctors, eh.
        
        Ha ha yes right.
        
        Children need to be protected from some parents. Taking Ivermectin off prescription for an illness that Ivermectin cannot treat sounds like cruelty to me.
        
        Shanreagh …
        
        19 March 2023 at 7:14 pm
        
        (warning RL will respond to calling ivermectin a veterinary medicine when it has been prescribed for use to millions of humans and when used in that way has been quite safe)
        
        Yes of course for the correctly diagnosed problems not for the 'treatment' of autism or any other long term use that involves taking it through side effects such as blurry sight.
        
        From Dermnetnz
        
        https://dermnetnz.org/topics/ivermectin
        
        'Ivermectin is effective against infections with:
        
        Parasitic worms including: onchocerciasis (river blindness), strongyloides, cutaneous larva migrans and filiariasis such as onchocerciasis
        
        Ectoparasites, including scabies
        
        Ivermectin has been used extensively as part of the World Health Organisation's Onchocerciasis Eradication Program. It has FDA approval for the treatment of strongyloides and onchocerciasis in the United States, other use is termed ‘off label’.
        
        In treatment of scabies its use may be appropriate in selected cases where topical therapy is impractical or has failed and is particularly useful in cases of crusted scabies (also called ‘Norwegian’ scabies).
        
        Ivermectin can also be used to control demodicosis. Ivermectin cream has been shown to reduce papulopustular rosacea, which is thought to be due to its effects on demodex mites and its anti-inflammatory action.
        
        A 2021 Cochrane Review has not found sufficient evidence to support the use of ivermectin for preventing or treating COVID-19.'
        
        SPC …
        
        19 March 2023 at 7:48 pm
        
        While it used as an anti-parasitic, it has anti-viral properties. And because of that and its safe user profile (right dosage at least) some resorted to it out of hope (pre vaccine) and because some of the developed anti-virals do not have as safe a user profile.
        
        This early
        
        https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-020-0336-z
        
        And more recently
        
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9135450/
        
        psych nurse …
        
        19 March 2023 at 9:40 pm
        
        Ivermecticin is no longer an effective wormer, it has become resistive to parasitic worms, don't you think the manufacturers are laughing all the way to the bank having found fools to buy their product.
        
        SPC …
        
        19 March 2023 at 9:54 pm
        
        Merck would rather sell its anti-viral – ivermectin is cheap to produce and low cost (often given away in the third world).
  - tWiggle 5.2.6
    
    20 March 2023 at 12:32 pm
    
    You can literally call their choice of ivermectin deworming medicine. The majority of people choosing to overdose themselves and their children are using vetinary-grade anti-parasite doses formulated for horses or for other large animals, not formulated for humans, or at human-sized doses.
- Brigid 5.3
  
  19 March 2023 at 11:13 pm
  
  'herxing'? They have no idea what that is obviously, but it's a pretty cool sounding word.
  
  They're all batshit crazy.
  
  Poor bloody kids
  - joe90 5.3.1
    
    20 March 2023 at 12:05 pm
    
    'herxing'?
    
    An inflammatory response to a therapy, usually an antibiotic. Not to be confused with being floxed.
arkie 6

19 March 2023 at 1:55 pm

In the Greens State of the Planet 2023 speech they lay down the gauntlet:

Political parties that want to negotiate with the Green Party must come to the table with much faster, bolder climate action, co-leaders James Shaw and Marama Davidson emphasised in their State of the Planet speech today.

“Make no mistake: 2023 will be a climate election. Only the Green Party will confront the climate emergency with the urgency it demands and take action to build an Aotearoa that works for everyone,” co-leader of the Green Party, James Shaw said.

“I am proud of what we have achieved with the governments we have been given. I am proud that over the last five years we have taken more action on climate change than the past 30 years of Governments combined.

“But it’s not enough. I do not want another generation to have to bear the burden of slow progress.

“To any political party that wants the Green Party’s support to form a government after the election, let us put it as simply as we can: the Green Party will not accept anything less than the strongest possible climate action. The stakes are too high, the consequences of failure too great.

https://www.greens.org.nz/enough_slow_progress_2023_is_a_fight_for_our_future

From the speech; the starkness of the choice is made clear:

Labour and National may be duking it out over the so-called ‘political centre’.

But this October, New Zealand will either…

Elect the most progressive, climate-focused government we have ever had…

A government that will not rest until we lift every family out of poverty…

A government that will place nature at the heart of everything we do…

A government that is guided by te Tiriti o Waitangi…

A government that confronts climate change with the urgency and the scale that it demands…

A government that has a strong Green heart beating at its centre…

Or… Hand the keys to the most reactionary race-baiting right-wing government we have seen in decades…

A government for the wealthy few, at the expense of many, not just in this generation but also those to come…

A government of climate inaction and delay.

And that is because there is one thing we know for sure:

No one party can win a majority on their own this election.

Just like Labour will need our support, the only way that Christopher Luxon can become Prime Minister is with the support of David Seymour and the ACT party.

An ACT party that has pledged to restart oil drilling in Maui dolphin habitats, ditch our climate targets, tear up te Tiriti o Waitangi, and cut taxes for the wealthiest few.

An ACT party which said of climate change only a few years ago, that the threat of more extreme weather events was, quote, “unproven conjectures."

Tell that to the people of Tai Tokerau and Auckland and Coromandel and Tairawhiti and Hawke’s Bay.

Even in the wake of these climate disasters, they dare to suggest that we should dismantle the entire framework that we have built, with bi-partisan support, to guide this country to a zero-emission, climate-resilient future.

The worst possible outcome that I can imagine from this year’s election is a National-ACT alliance in government.

It would be an alliance between parties addicted to fossil fuels and helping the wealthiest and the most powerful.

Families will be left struggling to make ends meet…

Schools and hospitals will be run into the ground…

Our natural world will be further eroded away…

The Crown’s obligations to Māori under te Tiriti will be dishonoured…

And our communities will be at more risk from more supercharged floods, storms, droughts, and fires.

Over the course of this election campaign, we can expect both National and ACT to promise simple fixes to complex problems.

To resort to fear.

To appeal to ‘ordinary working mums and dads’, only to turn their backs on them as they roll out policies to cater to the wealthiest and the most powerful.

I ask you to look carefully at who will make up the Cabinet in a National-ACT alliance and ask yourselves this:

Who do you want making those decisions that affect your life, and the lives of the people you love?

https://www.greens.org.nz/green_party_co_leader_james_shaw_s_state_of_the_planet_speech_2023

Only with more Greens in parliament can we achieve our climate targets, the dangers of delaying are unavoidable:

Chris Hipkins won media plaudits for his political strategy after scrapping or deferring some of Labour's policy in his latest policy bonfire, including ones to reduce emissions. But a poll released just hours after his announcement showed voters want more climate action, not less.

…

commentator Bernard Hickey pointed to the gap between our climate ambitions and what’s actually politically palatable, arguing the government is keeping debt low to appeal to suburbanite property owners, even if it means doing less to curb emissions.

It’s not just the government prioritising the concerns of a median voter. Despite regular proclamations on the urgency of addressing climate change, it’s often the media as well.

There are some good intentions at the root of the bias toward bread and butter policy. It's nourishing, especially during a cost of living crisis.

But it may be hard to fully enjoy the meal if the world is slowly turning into something resembling a bonfire – and not the sort that’s made of policy.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018882198/climate-policies-burn-on-the-bread-and-butter-bonfire

2023 really must be the climate election.
Stephen D 7

19 March 2023 at 2:20 pm

Aren’t the Greens caught in a bit of a cleft stick here?

The green wing of the part rightly decries the Govt’s slowing down of it’s climate change policies. That wing of the part that focuses on poverty and the cost of living issues must be delighted that Labour is concentrating there.
- arkie 7.1
  
  19 March 2023 at 2:33 pm
  
  There isn't really a dichotomy between 'wings' such that you describe:
  
  Co-leader Marama Davidson said many people were struggling to put food on the table and pay the bills.
  
  "We can address climate change and inequality at the same time."
  
  https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/486276/greens-lay-down-climate-change-election-challenge-to-other-parties
Stephen D 8

19 March 2023 at 2:25 pm

I am seriously f…ed off with New Zealand Cricket.

Selling the rights for home test matches to Spark Sport means that unless I want to pay for yet another streaming service, I don’t get to watch my country’s team, even when they’re playing at home.
- SPC 8.1
  
  19 March 2023 at 3:05 pm
  
  https://hd.crichdplayer.xyz/bt-sport-2-live-streaming-hd-uk-39
  - Stephen 8.1.1
    
    19 March 2023 at 4:11 pm
    
    Thank you!
  - Bearded Git 8.1.2
    
    19 March 2023 at 8:46 pm
    
    If you publish stream details like that they will soon be blocked.
- Belladonna 8.2
  
  19 March 2023 at 3:42 pm
  
  This is one area that the Aussies have got right with their anti-siphoning legislation
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-siphoning_laws_in_Australia
  
  The anti-siphoning list is a list of events, the televising of which should, in the opinion of the relevant Minister, be available free to the general public.[1] To effect this 'freedom', the Broadcasting Services Act 1992 includes a licence condition on pay TV providers that prohibits them from acquiring anti-siphoning events unless a national broadcaster or a network of commercial television broadcasters have the right to televise the events.
- Bearded Git 8.3
  
  19 March 2023 at 8:44 pm
  
  Agree Stephen….I can't even get an audio commentary online…which is sometimes superior to visual access.
  - joe90 8.3.1
    
    19 March 2023 at 8:52 pm
    
    Apparently it's available via the rova app. My 2 year old device is outdated so best of luck.
    
    https://www.rova.nz/home.html
    
    https://www.todayfm.co.nz/home/sport/2022/09/today-fm-cricket-frequencies.html
  - tWiggle 8.3.2
    
    20 March 2023 at 12:38 pm
    
    On Today fm radio.
Shanreagh 9

19 March 2023 at 3:11 pm

And while we sleep this is happening across NZ.

Julian Batchelor.

He is one scary dude/demagogue

Kaipara

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2023/03/police-step-in-at-anti-co-governance-event-after-crowd-clashes-with-organiser.html

Orewa

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/anti-co-governance-roadshow-orewa-protesters-clash-with-attendees/VZQOUBFFUFG65CAGXGLS35BDCI/?utm_campaign=nzh_tw&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=nzh_tw#Echobox=1679183353-1

While it says the National Anthem was sung this was only the first (English) verse and most participants turned their backs on the protestors and sat back down.

Julian Batchelor is the founder of Evangelism Strategies
https://www.nzwao.com/company?utm_source=evangelism-strategies-international-limited
but far from welcoming all this
‘This organisation mobilises and motivates churches for the Great Commission’

https://theconversation.com/what-is-the-great-commission-and-why-is-it-so-controversial-111138#:~:text=Briefly%2C%20the%20Great%20Commission%20is,%E2%80%9D%20and%20%E2%80%9Cbaptize%E2%80%9D%20them.
- Shanreagh 9.1
  
  19 March 2023 at 3:21 pm
  
  So the Great Commission has a belief not in religious diversity but in the opposite
  
  Converting others to Christianity raises a fundamental question about whether religious diversity is a reality to be celebrated or an obstacle to be overcome.
  
  From The Conversation link above.
  - SPC 9.1.1
    
    19 March 2023 at 6:54 pm
    
    The connection of the two causes does suggest a western "civilisation" centric approach. The far north also produced John Banks, John Carter, Wayne Brown (term as Mayor ended by John Carter) and Matt King.
    
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nationals-northland-election-candidate-announced/KXQSAKT5KVEXFG6O434RJYOKZA/
    - SPC 9.1.1.1
      
      19 March 2023 at 7:08 pm
      
      Former Kaipara Mayor, Matakohe farmer and cousin of former MP Sir Lockwood Smith KNZM, Dr Jason Smith, 51 and Felicity Foy of Te Rarawa were the two alternatives.
      
      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/felicity-foy-puts-up-hand-to-be-northlands-national-candidate/WGWLSEJT5G7XR3BWN6KXTQKL2U/
Muttonbird 10

19 March 2023 at 6:05 pm

The Greens would like Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull banned from New Zealand.

The Green Party says the Government should stop a British anti-transgender activist from visiting New Zealand.

Supporters of Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull, also known as Posie Parker, were seen to be giving Nazi salutes and abusing LGBT counter-protesters at her event in Melbourne yesterday.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/rainbow-greens-urge-government-to-ban-anti-transgender-activist-from-new-zealand/6SZZCW4LBRGWXBQ63PSH7QHM4Q/

https://twitter.com/amy_sargeant_/status/1636895480994201600
- Muttonbird 10.1
  
  19 March 2023 at 6:11 pm
  
  Another really horrible image from Melbourne. The “paedo freaks” they are wanting to exterminate are simply transgender people. 1930s Germany, anyone?
- Anker 10.2
  
  19 March 2023 at 7:37 pm
  
  These men who appeared in masks doing the sieg hail are nothing to do with Let Women Speak.
  
  Think about it. The gender critical movement is about women, many of whom are feminists speaking up about the rights of biological women.
  
  I have just listened to a video by Kellie, describing what happened. These people are nothing to do with her.
  
  Kellie is being completely smeared.
  - Muttonbird 10.2.1
    
    19 March 2023 at 7:47 pm
    
    The problem is wherever KJKM goes there is militant controversy. We do not need this Nazi saluting stuff in New Zealand.
    - Anker 10.2.1.1
      
      19 March 2023 at 7:49 pm
      
      I think we need to Let Women Speak.
      
      Speak Up for Women had their meetings about gender self ID shut down, rather than being listened to. They wanted the law about changing your sex on your birth certificate to stay as it was i.e a process through the family court. Pretty reasonable really.
      They also believe that biological sex is real, not a social construct (as claimmed by the likes of Judith Butler). They want protection for women in prisons, sports, awards, refuges etc.
      They are against the affirmation model for kids with gender dysphoria.
      Its quite simple really. But we have been shut down smeared and vilified.
      
      Kellie Jean pulls no punches. She states things like women don’t have penises. The Trans lobby smears people and cancels them. That is their modus operandi.
      Let women speak needs to go ahead.
      - Visubversa 10.2.1.1.1
        
        19 March 2023 at 8:31 pm
        
        When a bunch of testosterone laden lunkheads calling themselves "Antifa" decides to disrupt a group of women defending their rights to protect themselves as a sex class, and a similar bunch of testosterone laden lunkheads calling themselves "Nazis" decides to take the opportunity to have a go – the main thing they have in common is their commitment to male privilege and male aggression.
        
        SPC 10.2.1.1.1.1
        
        19 March 2023 at 9:13 pm
        
        Was the other group all male and identify as Antifa?
    - weka 10.2.1.2
      
      19 March 2023 at 8:34 pm
      
      The problem is wherever KJKM goes there is militant controversy.
      
      What does that mean?
      
      We do not need this Nazi saluting stuff in New Zealand.
      
      Then the argument would be that we should not give entry visas to the Nazis that were doing the saluting.
  - Shanreagh 10.2.2
    
    19 March 2023 at 10:22 pm
    
    I agree Anker.
    
    Everyone is resisting looking at how/why giving human/civil rights to one group is taking them from another.
    
    In real words do not be in a rush to give everyone who wants to don a frock the moniker of woman.
    
    Women need safe spaces and safe spaces do not include being in confined spaces (Toilets) or spaces with children (mothers with children in changing rooms) or receiving counselling for rape and other sexual assaults, or in women's prisons with men who have not transitioned. Men with intact genitalia should be restricted from female spaces.
    
    Many females agree with giving rights to trans people, but these rights should not be at the expense of the rights of women.
    
    This pure and simple is what KJKM is talking about. Smearing her is just one way of making sure that this message does not get through.
    
    I don't think any woman who has been following this is surprised at the shock horror of there being neo nazis around.
    - weka 10.2.2.1
      
      19 March 2023 at 10:51 pm
      
      it's true she is being smeared. It's also true that she has refused to condemn the Nazis or distance herself from them. That's a problem.
  - tWiggle 10.2.3
    
    20 March 2023 at 12:52 pm
    
    Perhaps take time to read the Greens statement. Posey Parker is anti-Muslim and has hung out with Proud Boys in the US. She doesn't just advocate a pro-women position, but also advocates virulently against trans people. Links in the Greens statement include UK feminist organisations who dissociated themselves from her because of these anti views.
    
    I've seen a couple of nauseating clips from her podcast that immediately struck down her credibility. Be careful who you climb in bed with.
    
    https://www.greens.org.nz/kellie_jay_keen_minshull
    - SPC 10.2.3.1
      
      20 March 2023 at 5:24 pm
      
      Just looked at the first two reasons given on that list, calling for women who identify as trans men to be "sterilised" and saying that women who oppose the cause will be “annihilated” – it is classic "force and power" language.
      
      It reminds one of Stopes and Sanger, both womens rights on access to contraception, but also into "eugenics" to sell it to others as "population" management. That also led to them getting connections to the right.
- weka 10.3
  
  19 March 2023 at 8:31 pm
  
  I've not seen the evidence that the Nazis are KJK supporters. Incredibly biased reporting. The Nazis marched between LWS and the gender activists, they faced the activists and did the salute. The activists had previously been engaged with the police, apparently punching the horses bellies to try and break the line. Policy told the organisers and women speakers of LWS to be prepared to run if the lines broke. Two lots of militant men facing off.
  
  Has anyone explained yet why the police let them go there?
  
  KJK causes a lot of grief by not making a statement distancing herself from the Nazis. A number of women involved have objected to having to make statements because they think it's a distraction. Fortunately GC women in NZ have made statements against Nazis.
  - Shanreagh 10.3.1
    
    19 March 2023 at 10:34 pm
    
    Agree with the biased reporting.
    
    Neo Nazis, 'shock horror' will yet again put off having to deal with the points that women have been making………
    
    I have no truck with Nazis.
    
    The women who are concerned about the reach of the trans rights activism need to be respected. There are many of us from the mildest to the most forthright.
    
    This is one of the songs of the 70s. I am Woman, Helen Reddy with the focus on the words
    
    Can we at least talk about the reasons for the visit, the views and reflect on the point that in giving rights to one group should not mean that the rights of another should be lessened.
    
    The Nazis focus is an unpleasant smokescreen diverting people from dealing with the real issues.
- weka 10.4
  
  19 March 2023 at 8:32 pm
  
  Amy Sargeant is also manipulating the narrative. What evidence is there that the Nazis were protecting KJK?
- weka 10.5
  
  19 March 2023 at 9:25 pm
  
  The Greens would like Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull banned from New Zealand.
  
  The Rainbow Greens at least. Thankfully the Greens seem to understand that now is not the time to poke at the culture wars. There's nothing on their main twitter and didn't see anything on their FB either. This time and when the original PR was done.
  - tWiggle 10.5.1
    
    20 March 2023 at 1:16 pm
    
    See link above to the official Greens statement. The Rainbow Greens are not the only signers.
    - weka 10.5.1.1
      
      20 March 2023 at 2:47 pm
      
      yeah, that's fair, I had mistakenly read that as those three MPs being part of the RGs. My point stands. The GP twitter and FB accounts haven't shared this, it's not in their news feed, and that letter isn't easy to find on the GP front page (when I looked last week at least).
      - tWiggle 10.5.1.1.1
        
        20 March 2023 at 4:52 pm
        
        I found it a credible argument for at least serious monitoring of her in NZ, if not shutting her out. The case was well supported with examples that she is a provocateur, weka. I'm a little disappointed with the tarring of so-called tarrers, who weren't. She looks right up Counterspin’s alley.
        
        weka 10.5.1.1.1.1
        
        20 March 2023 at 5:06 pm
        
        The only credible argument I can see if her populist conservative position on trans rights alongside her refusal to condemn the Nazis in Melbourne (because she vehemently rejects guilt by association) somehow encourages Nazis in NZ to violence or hate speech. Seems a long bow to draw though.
        
        Also, the RGs call Woman's Place UK extreme anti-trans. If they're going to use hyperbole like that it makes their whole argument suspect.
SPC 11

19 March 2023 at 6:41 pm

If they want their support at this year's election they'll have to come to the table with "much faster, bolder" climate action.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/03/co-leader-james-shaw-marama-davidson-call-for-stronger-climate-action-at-greens-state-of-the-planet-speech.html

An interesting tack, of course their room to operate after the election is limited by the lack of alternative to a Labour led government for Greens to work with.
Muttonbird 12

19 March 2023 at 7:08 pm

Another bank in trouble. Why is it when financial gurus fail when gaming their own system, everyone else has to pay?

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/486301/credit-suisse-bank-ubs-said-to-be-in-takeover-talks-with-troubled-rival

For example, I have put $1300 into my KiwiSaver over the last 12 months and my balance has barely shifted.

Guillotine for the thieves not far away, surely.
- pat 12.1
  
  19 March 2023 at 8:05 pm
  
  "For example, I have put $1300 into my KiwiSaver over the last 12 months and my balance has barely shifted."
  
  Some have put 10s of thousands into property purchases in the last couple of years and are watching it disappear.
  - Bearded Git 12.1.1
    
    19 March 2023 at 8:48 pm
    
    Because property in NZ is vastly overvalued when compared with international values.
- joe90 12.2
  
  19 March 2023 at 9:17 pm
  
  A bank-run away from catastrophe.
  
  https://twitter.com/davidgura/status/1635831021336657920
  
  […]
  
  The good news about this issue is that banks are generally in a strong financial condition, and have not been forced to realize losses by selling depreciated securities. On the other hand, unrealized losses weaken a bank’s future ability to meet unexpected liquidity needs. That is because the securities will generate less cash when sold than was originally anticipated, and because the sale often causes a reduction of regulatory capital.
  
  https://www.fdic.gov/news/speeches/2023/spmar0623.html
Stuart Munro 13

19 March 2023 at 8:12 pm

There seems to be a push to try to redeem the term 'woke' at present.

I consider it ill-advised, it having been misused to the point of losing meaning.

The Critical Drinker has some explanations about woke issues in movies.
SPC 14

19 March 2023 at 10:11 pm

On Sunday morning, ACT deputy leader Brooke van Velden said if the Green Party's done one thing during their five years in Government, it's "proving how ineffective they are".

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/03/election-2023-act-greens-launch-attacks-over-ineffectiveness-reactionary-race-baiting-politics.html

This is inept, the Greens have never been in a coalition government, not in the last 5 years, or any other time.

1999-2002 Labour-Alliance (Greens c and s)

2002 2005 Labour-Progressive (United c and s)

2005-2008 Labour-Progressive (United and NZF c and s)

2017-2020 Labour-NZF (Greens c and s)

2020 Labour (co-operation agreement with Greens).

Does no one fact check speeches before they are made, ones hope their party media comms vet this sort of stuff in election year …
- SPC 14.1
  
  19 March 2023 at 11:00 pm
  
  The ACT Party and the Greens have begun their pre-election campaign tussles after launching attacks at each other.
  
  It's a bit one-sided
  
  Van Veldon confuses the lack of oil and gas exploration with the current need to import coal (exploration would only have an impact on the future availability of local oil or gas – by which time there was no expectation of any need to import coal).
  
  Van Velden continued her attack on the Greens, saying one of Shaw's flagship policies was banning oil and gas exploration. "Global coal exporters have been the biggest benefactor of the Green Party's climate policies. According to figures from MBIE, coal use for electricity generation was up 29.5 percent in 2022. There is no environmental benefit to this policy if Indonesian coal is imported instead," van Velden said. "If New Zealand wants to avoid burning millions of tonnes of foreign coal in future, the Government needs to re-evaluate its oil and gas ban."
  
  Note the attempt to sell the nationalism of local carbon use being better to Greens.
  
  An easy differentation is then made
  
  "An ACT Party that has pledged to restart oil drilling in Māui dolphin habitats, that has pledged to ditch our climate targets, that has pledged to tear up Te Tiriti o Waitangi, and that has pledged to cut taxes for the wealthiest few.
  
  "An ACT Party that said of climate change, only a few years ago, that the threat of extreme weather events was 'unproven conjectures'."
  
  Shaw said in the wake of Cyclone Gabrielle, the ACT Party "dares to suggest" the framework on building a zero-emission climate-resilient future for New Zealand should be dismantled.
  
  "The worst possible outcome that I can imagine from this year's election is a National-ACT alliance in Government. It would be an alliance addicted to fossil fuels and to helping the wealthiest and the most powerful," Shaw said.
  
  "Families will be left struggling to make ends meet, schools and hospitals will be run into the ground, our natural world will be further eroded away, the Crown's obligations to Māori under Te Tiriti will be dishonoured, and our communities will be more at risk from supercharged floods and fires and droughts and storms."
  
  "Over the next seven months, the Green Party will set out a plan for Aotearoa to cut climate pollution and improve our communities," Shaw said.