Open Mike 19/11/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 19th, 2018 - 225 comments
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225 comments on “Open Mike 19/11/2018 ”

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  1. James 1
    19 November 2018 at 7:17 am

    Employers lock out union staff who threatened to enable / actively promote theft.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2018/11/bus-drivers-locked-out-after-saying-they-won-t-collect-fares.html

  2. Sanctuary 2
    19 November 2018 at 7:22 am

    Good grief, Guyon Espiner is busy doing his best to peddle right wing conspiracy theories about Andrew Little on the radio right now.

    How on earth can the Pike River work Little has done become an inquisition into his record as union leader?

    What.The.Fuck. Espiner clearly has David Farrar’s phone number on speed dial.

    • Ed 2.1
      19 November 2018 at 7:23 am

      Further evidence of the decline of RNZ.
      It has become just another propaganda outlet for the neoliberal establishment.

    • Sacha 2.2
      19 November 2018 at 7:45 am

      I’d forgotten Little’s historic union link with the mine. That would explain some of the personal vitriol the right are directing at him.

      • mickysavage 2.3.1
        19 November 2018 at 8:21 am

        BM how many other nzagainstthecurrent.blogspot.com articles have you ever referred to?

        This one gets bandied around. The writer seems to be pretty far left. The conclusions are frankly strange. But I get the feeling it is something that the right thinks that it can bash Little with so is uses the article without embarrassment.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 2.4
      19 November 2018 at 11:53 am

      The Pike River “accident” (in fact a predictable outcome of government abandoning workplace regulation, disempowered workers and investors being allowed to act as they please in the workplace) is exactly the sort of thing that strong unions can prevent. No doubt Andrew Little is aware of that – good on him.

      • shadrach 2.4.1
        19 November 2018 at 12:49 pm

        “…is exactly the sort of thing that strong unions can prevent.”

        Except that based on the link BM provided, Andrew Little and his Union not only didn’t prevent the accident at Pike River, they enabled it.

        And your point about the government ‘abandoning workplace regulation’ features in another blog linked to in BM’s reference, which says this:

        “Perhaps Little’s rush to the defence of PRC management was provoked by the fact that the Fourth Labour government,(1999-2008) which was backed by the Greens, continued to dismantle the Labour Department’s specialist mines inspectorate and allowed mine owners to self-regulate. Which meant that the mining companies, in the pursuit of profit, began to cut corners.”
        https://nzagainstthecurrent.blogspot.com/2017/10/andrew-little-and-pike-river-fatally.html

        • KJT 2.4.1.1
          19 November 2018 at 1:09 pm

          Unions have no power at all, these days.

          You may as well blame the managers cat.

          Probably had more influence.

          • shadrach 2.4.1.1.1
            19 November 2018 at 9:14 pm

            Perhaps, but that really isn’t the point. Based on the posts BM cited, Andrew Little not only didn’t speak out regarding safety concerns at Pike River, he actually defended the company. For example:

            https://nzagainstthecurrent.blogspot.com/2017/10/andrew-little-and-pike-river-fatally.html
            “It was Andrew Little who, after the first explosion, claimed to the NZ Herald (November 22 2010) that there was “nothing unusual about Pike River or this mine that we’ve been particularly concerned about”.”
            and…
            “Every mine on the West Coast takes great care when it goes into production and I don’t think Pike River is any different from that. They’ve had a good health and safety committee that’s been very active. So there’s nothing before now that’s alerted us to any greater risk of this sort of incident happening than at any other time.”

            https://nzagainstthecurrent.blogspot.com/2014/12/how-andrew-little-failed-pike-river.html
            “On November 26, 2010 the Dominion Post ran an article that denounced ‘wild’ rumours that the mine was not safe. It declared that “Any suggestion of obvious or known safety lapses does not find traction with unionised staff or union leader Andrew Little.””

            What is alarming is that while others were expressing concern on the workers behalf, the union, and the Labour government of the time, appear to have backed the company!

            The best comment of all comes from https://nzagainstthecurrent.blogspot.com/2017/10/andrew-little-and-pike-river-fatally.html

            “The general view is that Pike River was a disaster waiting to happen. But the conditions for the disaster were created by both National and Labour governments whose deregulatory zeal severely undermined health and safety measures that had been put in place at the mine. And twenty nine men would lose their lives. And no one has been held responsible for the disaster.”
            What a disgrace.

        • te reo putake 2.4.1.2
          19 November 2018 at 9:32 pm

          “Enabled it”. Well, that’s utter bullshit.

          Little was the head of a union with 50,000 members and thousands of work sites to cover. He simply would not have had any information at the time about Pike River, unless it was specifically raised with the him by the local union organiser. And, clearly, that organiser was kept in the dark as much as possible. The company was actively anti-union, made organiser access difficult and incentivised workers (including union members) to ignore normal health and safety protocols.

          That’s not “enabling”. That’s the union being deliberately sidelined so it couldn’t do its job. Little didn’t know what he didn’t know, which is just the way the company wanted it.

          • shadrach 2.4.1.2.1
            20 November 2018 at 10:09 am

            “He simply would not have had any information at the time about Pike River, unless it was specifically raised with the him by the local union organiser. And, clearly, that organiser was kept in the dark as much as possible. ”

            Wrong, wrong, wrong.

            https://nzagainstthecurrent.blogspot.com/2017/10/andrew-little-and-pike-river-fatally.html
            “But Little’s view that everything was fine at Pike River was contradicted by miner Brent Forrester. He told TVNZ’s Sunday (December 5 2010) that he once helped organise a walkout of some ten miners to protest the lack of basic emergency equipment, including stretchers and an emergency transport vehicle. He also said they had received no support from the EPMU.

            Little’s apparent lack of concern about what was happening at Pike River and his willingness to believe what management told him, was also highlighted by Gerry Morris of Greymouth, a former writer for Coal magazine. He told the NZ Herald that he had heard regularly from contractors at the mine that “over the last two or three years that this mine is unsafe, there’s far too much gas, there’s going to be a disaster here one day”.”

            Little and the EPMU had plenty of warning things were not right at Pike. He chose to believe the company.

            • te reo putake 2.4.1.2.1.1
              20 November 2018 at 11:46 am

              You’ll note that in your cites, there is no mention of Andrew Little. Again, I call bullshit on this beat up.

            • Exkiwiforces 2.4.1.2.1.2
              20 November 2018 at 1:49 pm

              No shit Sherlock, the Brunner coal seam is knowing to a be gasie coal seam to mine. The last mine to mine that coal seam was the Dobson Mine, prior to the Pike Creek,only a mad man would Mine it as my late great uncle said when I made some inquiries into Pike Creek. My Great Uncle was the last Manager/ Owner of the family coal mine before the NZG of the withdraw the license IOT close the State Mine, after that he worked for the Mines Dept as a Mine Engineer, Mines Inspectorate, also he said the that mine shouldn’t and wouldn’t have been approve or built under the old Mines Acts if the then “No Mates Party” in 1993 hadn’t been kicked into the trash can.

              All the other Mines within the Grey Valley either Mined the Paparoa Seam or the Roa Seam as they were less gassy, less faulting in the coal seams and the old Mines Act was built on 100 plus yrs of coal mining which was replace something that was out of the 1800’s, with less oversight and designed to destroy the miners union. The local union rep in Greymouth who was meant to the miners rep in the Grey Valley was a clueless muppet and a company hack according to dad. To a point dad warned a number of union leaders at the time as this person had almost no mining experience unlike my dad who a former hard rock miner and was in regular contact with family members or ex members who were still involved with coal mining on the Coast.

              If you want to point fingers ask Max Bradford and his “No Mates Party” why they got rid of the Mines Act and ECA in the early 90’s which reduced oversight and introduce lax’s regulation IRT Mining activity underground and above ground. Then work your way to the current the NZG.

              • shadrach …
                20 November 2018 at 3:00 pm

                That’s a fairly lame attempt at deflection.

                https://nzagainstthecurrent.blogspot.com/2017/10/andrew-little-and-pike-river-fatally.html
                “The general view is that Pike River was a disaster waiting to happen. But the conditions for the disaster were created by both National and Labour governments whose deregulatory zeal severely undermined health and safety measures that had been put in place at the mine. And twenty nine men would lose their lives. And no one has been held responsible for the disaster.”

                and
                https://nzagainstthecurrent.blogspot.com/2017/10/andrew-little-and-pike-river-fatally.html
                “Perhaps Little’s rush to the defence of PRC management was provoked by the fact that the
                Fourth Labour government,(1999-2008) which was backed by the Greens, continued to dismantle the Labour Department’s specialist mines inspectorate and allowed mine owners to self-regulate. Which meant that the mining companies, in the pursuit of profit, began to cut corners.”

                • Exkiwiforces …
                  21 November 2018 at 8:13 pm

                  Alarm bells should’ve been ringing after the Roa Mine accident, but SFA was done by the then GoD which btw was a Labour/Government so go figure.

                  My Dad was the union rep for the coast under ECA, before he was given the flick by the union. So he some skin in the game and he was hoping to Front the Royal Commission into Pike River Disaster, but then the terms of reference were very poor ie to protect the deregulation that happen under “No Mates Party” in the 90’s. The old man still has a number of notes from his meetings with Max Bradford and Co, which makes for some interesting reading IRT to mining ( google Frank Henry Sherman and the Broken Hill Miners Union or the Barrier Trade Union) and electrical training aka linesman and high voltage training in NZ.

                  The deregulation that happen in the 90’s until now, the Pollies that made this decisions need to be made accountable for their actions. Especially Max, Brich & Co.

                  • shadrach …
                    22 November 2018 at 12:54 pm

                    Thanks for that, it’s good background. Totally agree with you on accountability, but our politicians aren’t strong on that suit.

                    • Exkiwiforces …
                      22 November 2018 at 3:36 pm

                      No worries mate, I think it’s not only the lack accountability from the pollies, but those from the big end of town that drove the push for deregulation but also the senior union leadership from 90’s to the present day need to be made accountable.

                      The Mines Act and the Mines Dept was a bloody good at its job IRT safety, training for not only the miners but the for management of mines weather it was underground or open cut. Both the Mines Dept and the actual Mines Act were fairly dynamic in that it was built on lessons learnt from past mine accidents, always open to new ways of mining without deceasing safety or training and looking at trends aka WHS or new ideas from overseas at could ne use in NZ Mines.

                      But we have now is something that my Great Great Grandfather, Great Grandfather fought against in the 1800’s – early to mid 1900’s/ 1930’s and Dad’s (plus has Mates) rearguard in the 1990’s as they knew what would happen in the long term IRT’s safety, training and wages.

                      If you can get a hold of this book, “ The Noble Cause, The Story of The United Mine Workers of America in Western Canada” Tells about the fight for miners rights, safety, pay and conditions (led by my Great Great Grandfather F.H Sherman and one of his understudies who later came to NZ where took on Mine Companies, but later took on McLagan and crony’s/ followed travellers such as the Locke’s which they unfortunately tashed is good his name (along a few other names like Sherman, Hills, Fisher’s , Pascoes, and the McNaughtons etc) as well when they loss a few court battles and when McLagans adultery was finally exposed.) But I’ll need to sit down with you over a few beers to tell that story.

                      The Bevans from Wales is also a part of the family as well and again the same story, but from the Wesh POV.

                      Which tells you, how far the NZ mining regulations have gone backwards to almost back to those dark days where miners lives were worth SFA to the mine management/ owners or companies.

                      Hopefully Jandals and her Government can finally turn this big super tanker or Aussie Road Train of 30 odd yrs of Neo Lib/Con BS economic theory etc around and give everyone a far go etc etc.

                    • shadrach …
                      26 November 2018 at 10:00 am

                      Thanks, again.

                      My dad (who passed away two years ago at 91) was a ‘Bevan Boy’. Too young to fight in WW2, he was sent down the mines until he was of age for the draft. He hated it with a passion. I remember when Pike happened…he wouldn’t say much, but he was deeply affected by it.

      • Tamati Tautuhi 2.4.2
        19 November 2018 at 4:45 pm

        They should have taken the canaries into the mines with them ?

    • Ffloyd 2.5
      19 November 2018 at 1:17 pm

      Exactly Sanctuary. Disgusting boring little troll that he is. He’s a sneaky little shite but not in an intelligent way.

  3. Ed 3
    19 November 2018 at 7:22 am

    Barry Soper has got his marching orders as well. Like Stacy Kirk, he tries to undermine the Pike River re-entry. We need 24 hour security say the entrance to the crime scene.
    Media organisations are billionaires’ propaganda outlets and several reporters and writers are traitors.

    Liberate the commons.
    Try and sentence the collaborators.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12162331

    • solkta 3.1
      19 November 2018 at 7:27 am

      Why do you think the Herald is part of “the commons”? Why do you say that reporters are “traitors”? Under what laws would you “try and sentence” them? Or would you create retrospective laws for this? If the latter what would the sentence be? Would you execute them?

      • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1
        19 November 2018 at 11:34 am

        Why do you think the Herald is part of “the commons”?

        There’s an argument that publishing so that it’s in the public domain makes it part of the commons.

        Why do you say that reporters are “traitors”?

        I’d say that many are undermining the nation for the favour of their employers.

        • solkta 3.1.1.1
          19 November 2018 at 12:52 pm

          So every book, movie and album ever “published” is public property in your world? Yeh, well i can see why there is so little support for the kind of state that you and Ed would create.

          • mauī 3.1.1.1.1
            19 November 2018 at 1:59 pm

            There’s very good reasons why indigenous societies put a strong focus on public property.

            • Gosman 3.1.1.1.1.1
              19 November 2018 at 3:08 pm

              What is an “Indigenous” society? Can you advise specifically in relation to Europe and Asia.

              • mary_a …
                19 November 2018 at 3:36 pm

                Do you set examination questions Gosman (3.1.1.1.1.1)? You forgot to state in how many words the questions should be answered and the time allowed to process the answers!

          • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1.1.2
            19 November 2018 at 4:16 pm

            So every book, movie and album ever “published” is public property in your world?

            Nice distraction.

            We are, of course, talking about news and the journalists job of making it public. Then there’s the fact that much of what they report is already public but with very limited coverage.

            Then there’s the fact that I only said that publishing it makes it part of the commons. I didn’t say anything about shifting ownership. There is a need for published news to be honest and we’re not really seeing that.

    • Sabine 3.2
      19 November 2018 at 8:08 am

      burn the witches?

    • mauī 3.3
      19 November 2018 at 8:56 am

      Interesting response to your comment Ed. Lefties would rather joke than care about a functioning democracy.

      • solkta 3.3.1
        19 November 2018 at 9:08 am

        I guess it is not possible to have a serious discussion when Ed won’t say what he actually means by the words he uses. Since you seem to always agree with him perhaps you could answer my questions above?

      • marty mars 3.3.2
        19 November 2018 at 9:37 am

        Yes I’d like to know too. How can you call people traitors and collaborators – hateful language, just awful when the context of those words is understood. These sentiments lead to people getting tortured and murdered.

        • Draco T Bastard 3.3.2.1
          19 November 2018 at 11:38 am

          And yet ignoring them, not questioning the status quo, can also lead to people being tortured and murdered. It’ll even be ‘legal’.

          • McFlock 3.3.2.1.1
            19 November 2018 at 11:56 am

            We’re talking about Barry soper, FFS. Not Lord Haw Haw.

            • Draco T Bastard 3.3.2.1.1.1
              19 November 2018 at 12:22 pm

              And how many people did commit suicide due to National’s beneficiary bashing that was supported by Soper?

              • McFlock …
                19 November 2018 at 12:36 pm

                Bullying and suicide isn’t torture and murder.

                Don’t get me wrong, I hate the fucking nats and their attitude to poor people. But escalating rhetoric unreasonably encourages losers to send bombs through the mail. We don’t need NZ to follow the US in everything, surely.

                • James …
                  19 November 2018 at 12:52 pm

                  Yep then we get people like the WINZ murderer (who one commenter on here called a hero).

                  • McFlock …
                    19 November 2018 at 1:00 pm

                    And that commenter was roundly criticised for doing so. I think you brought it up recently.

                    On the positive side for NZ, at least he didn’t get his hands on an AR-15 and backup handgun.

                  • marty mars …
                    19 November 2018 at 4:20 pm

                    Yeah you broken record boy – that has been well sorted and you know it jimbo.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  19 November 2018 at 4:24 pm

                  Bullying is most definitely torture and if someone commits suicide because of that torture that means that they’ve been tortured to death which makes it murder.

                  This applies to at least one person in NZ.

                  • McFlock …
                    19 November 2018 at 4:43 pm

                    And that little chain of sort-of-trues gets weaker the more links you put in.

                    Soper is not Lord Haw-Haw. Nothing close. He’s not a traitor. He’s not a collaborator. He’s just a bit of a dick who can string a thousand coherent words together and has possibly hung around the same role too long. Yes, he tends to support the nats, and yes, they’re a bunch of cocks who quite possibly have one or two outright evil people in their caucus.

                    But compared to what is traditionally a capital crime associated with the planned and purposefully-inflicted murder of millions? Small cheese.

            • Professor Longhair 3.3.2.1.1.2
              19 November 2018 at 2:53 pm

              He’s married to the insufferable Lady Haw Haw.

      • Sabine 3.3.3
        19 November 2018 at 9:49 am

        there was nothing in Eds comment that would foster any discussion.

        the Herald is not a ‘common’ good, it is a private Newspaper. Read at your own peril.

        the Journalists are hired and do as they are told lest they dont’ get a pay check, some are more left, some are more right and others don’t give a shit at all so as long as the money comes in. It is up to you- the reader to draw your conclusions.

        And really, charging them with treason? Is that like ‘lock her up’ or they ‘are enemy of the state”?

  4. James 4
    19 November 2018 at 7:24 am

    Lol. Two leftie post both with unproven conspiracies about reporters.

    You guys drinking the same kool aid?

  5. WeTheBleeple 5
    19 November 2018 at 7:40 am

    James sole purpose here is disruption. If TS can’t deal with an obviously deliberate attempt every day to undermine the flow of conversation and ideas, what is it supporting?

    There’s free speech, then there’s James and his utter BS. You are not protecting free speech allowing him to interrupt everything, you are hindering it.

    Points made: zero

    Threads interrupted: everything he touches

    Entire days: derailed.

    • Ed 5.1
      19 November 2018 at 7:41 am

      I second that motion

    • BM 5.2
      19 November 2018 at 7:54 am

      It’s what political blogs are all about, differing opinions, winding up the locals.

      You should go have a read of Kiwiblog some time, the place is overrun with Left-wing trolls.

      • WeTheBleeple 5.2.1
        19 November 2018 at 8:08 am

        That is your only defense BM: the others do it too. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

        However, a shit-ton of wrongs make a right wing party.

        • DJ Ward 5.2.1.1
          19 November 2018 at 11:14 am

          So how do you explain Labours creation of the Ministry for Women but no Ministry for Men. What about the rabid hatred of gender equality from the left on this issue.

          One big wrong defines the Labour Party.

          • McFlock 5.2.1.1.1
            19 November 2018 at 11:57 am

            Pretty much every other ministry is a ministry for men.

            • I feel love 5.2.1.1.1.1
              19 November 2018 at 12:27 pm

              “Rabid hate of gender equality” – so much stupid. Mcflock is right and this crap was argued about in the 70s (“why women only spaces? what about the mans wah wah wah”), back under the timewarp rock you go.

            • te reo putake 5.2.1.1.1.2
              19 November 2018 at 1:38 pm

              Yep, just like every day is International Men’s Day and has been since time immemorial.

              • In Vino …
                19 November 2018 at 3:43 pm

                Yay, drinks all round, guys!
                (Trolls constantly prodding at what they actually despise – leftie efforts to achieve egalitarianism. They like to get us riled up… We need to focus on their inadequacies rather than defending our stance with arguments they knew bloody well before they made their provocative but dumb comments.)

              • DJ Ward …
                19 November 2018 at 9:24 pm

                Yes the suicide statistics back up your one eyed perspective of reality.

                • te reo putake …
                  19 November 2018 at 9:45 pm

                  Oh, do leave it out. There are MRA websites were you can waffle away about how oppressed you are, but this ain’t one of them. Now here’s some James Brown to tell you what you’re missing out on:

            • DJ Ward 5.2.1.1.1.3
              19 November 2018 at 9:21 pm

              Education. Failing males. Women’s studies often compulsory, men’s studies non existent.
              Police. Arbitrary arrest for men but not women. Ignore most female offending especially crimes involving sex and DV.
              Justice. Family court, obvious bigotry.
              Health. Men, who are they. Heh the male pill exists but they don’t deserve it.
              Internal affairs. Administer paternity fraud.
              IRD. Steal money from men supporting paternity fraud then destroy the evidence when caught.

              I could go on, and on.

              Your comment is ignorant of the facts.

              Ask the Minister for Men, waiting!

    • greywarshark 5.3
      19 November 2018 at 4:49 pm

      Wthe B
      Good thought. Relevant. What is the point of TS?

    • Tamati Tautuhi 5.4
      19 November 2018 at 4:50 pm

      The guy is a parasitic invertebrate trying to infect TS daily regularly laying eggs throughout the day ?

  6. WeTheBleeple 6
    19 November 2018 at 7:52 am

    OMG. Now I understand why greywarshark has asked that I illustrate when I am being sarcastic… I’ll try take more care. It’s like when I was performing stand-up, and rednecks thought I was running down Maori instead of racism, no idea of irony. Or, while parodying bogans, all the bogans wanted to be mates (the racism and boganism often went hand in hand).

    When a parody news site is a right wing go-to…

    “Blair’s page had become one of the most popular on Facebook among Trump-supporting conservatives over 55”

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12162400

  7. Incognito 7
    19 November 2018 at 7:52 am

    NZ academics call on government to take emergency climate action.

    http://www.voxy.co.nz/politics/5/326249

    • WeTheBleeple 7.1
      19 November 2018 at 8:43 am

      This ‘signing of strongly worded letters’ is getting old. In the interim the unis pump out more clones for BAU.

      How about they formulate solutions, intellectuals that they are.

      • Tamati Tautuhi 7.1.1
        19 November 2018 at 5:05 pm

        Graduates now days not capable of critical thinking ?

        • WeTheBleeple 7.1.1.1
          19 November 2018 at 5:35 pm

          A lot of them aren’t no. The GE push is strong, they swallow that crap like it’s gospel. Dissenting voices are simply not there. But they had a climate denier, and we had to sit through three hours of the fool. This was our lesson in critical thinking… Nobody mentioned he was full of shit.

          Try debate 1080. Which I’m not against in hard access places, but they’re all convinced it is our only option. Even considering the views of others is sacrilege, they’ll close ranks, and treat free thinkers like pariahs.

          We were not taught to follow the money which is today’s best BS detector.

          I could go on, but I actually really loved uni and a large portion of the academics. But I do not care for the direction of the universities calling for applied science and curtailing blue sky thinkers. The massive corporate presence there is insidious so that brilliant people are talking utter shite.

      • Incognito 7.1.2
        19 November 2018 at 10:30 pm

        The issue is lack of inaction by our Government and all other governments in the world. Shooting the messenger is not the least helpful and to claim that there are no solutions proffered is a cop-out.

        Since you seem to refer to “old” as something outdated and (thus?) ineffectual, here’s something really old that hasn’t lost its meaning nor impact (AKA a picture is worth a thousand words):

        http://www.lukasweb.be/en/photo/it-is-too-late-to-fill-in-the-well-after-the-calf-has-drowned

        • WeTheBleeple 7.1.2.1
          20 November 2018 at 7:17 am

          The issue is not merely inaction by governments at all. Scientists are up to their necks in corporate comforts/sponsorship/funding. Who delivered all the tech now fucking us?

          They love a new product, and especially a new patent.

          Solutions proffered, as in divest?

          Or maybe nano-tech filtering carbon from air, or artificial leaves, or new improved catalytic converters. Or plastic recycling, or hybrid vehicles, or neon fucking light bulbs… some other way to preserve the oil companies grip on us all while green-washing society. Or some other way to maintain highly consumptive lifestyles.

          What I found was pure hypocrisy, the peer review process is the only time I saw the majority take feedback without acting like they’d been fed dead rats. And then some would turn the feedback into an entire career of to and fro.

          Take themselves very seriously, the planet, well, necessity dictates those in the know should move their asses so as to save their asses.

  8. SaveNZ 8
    19 November 2018 at 8:14 am

    Great (sarcasm) the we can get a NZ resident after an 11 day relationship because our rules allow it under appeal.

    Clearly the good and fairness for society seems to be lacking in the appeal/deportation immigration rules!

    Oh and he is 60 years old, so probably qualifies for free health care straight away and super at 70 – the average age of life is 80+. Get more roads going too, we are going to. need them if that is the standard of coming here.

    Work harder everyone, Kiwi’s now have to pay for other countries who within a few days of internet chatting can be NZ residents!

    There are A LOT of lonely people in the world who have a spare $10k to send over!

    Immigration fails to deport man who paid $10k to NZ citizen he married 11 days after first meet

    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/immigration-fails-deport-man-paid-10k-nz-citizen-he-married-11-days-after-first-meet

    • SaveNZ 8.1
      19 November 2018 at 9:07 am

      Remember when our government said that immigration was to pay for our retirement – not sure how that is working out.

      Migrants’ parents cost NZ ‘tens of millions’
      https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/315435/migrants'-parents-cost-nz-'tens-of-millions‘

      http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1110/S00572/grey-power-warns-of-impact-of-high-immigration-rates.htm

      It is completely unfair when we have 16 yo kids going blind waiting for hospital appointments, people who have paid taxes in NZ for years and wait nearly a year for a basic hospital appointment like heart check, due to the demands on our system and our immigration rules and the way they are enforced seems to make a mockery of that by adding more high needs people to compete against.

      In addition, sounds like the aged migrants use the health system much more than Kiwis do of the same age, according to the links above and mysteriously seem to need emergency benefits too even though declared on the application that the families would support them.

      • Chris T 8.1.1
        19 November 2018 at 10:22 am

        Never fear

        Labour have promised to drop immigration by 25,000 – 30,000!

        …………. Ohh. That was before the election, when they could spout any old populist crap knowing they wouldn’t have to do it.

        • bwaghorn 8.1.1.1
          19 November 2018 at 11:51 am

          The only reason they can’t cut immigration is because the coalition government has the economy running so hot that unemployment is at record lows .

          • SaveNZ 8.1.1.1.1
            19 November 2018 at 4:59 pm

            Yep but welfare is on the increase, schools, hospitals and roads are full, so getting in every Tom dick and Harry aint working either, because once they get residency they stop working here and can just be a rich satellite family so back to square one with massive liabilities for the future of NZ.

          • greywarshark 8.1.1.1.2
            19 November 2018 at 5:14 pm

            But without oil a hot-running engine will seize up. And even with oil you can’t run an engine on high gear when it has a huge load. Not fu..realistically possible. Let’s read the lines between the stats, over, behind, to the side, and see where we actually float in our Pacific bathtub. I think we are going childish when we believe everything that the big people tell us.

      • Draco T Bastard 8.1.2
        19 November 2018 at 11:47 am

        Remember when our government said that immigration was to pay for our retirement – not sure how that is working out.

        That only works if all immigrants are sub thirty. It’s also nothing more than pushing the can down the road as they simply don’t have a plan for when those immigrants retire.

        In fact, I’d go so far as to say that no one over the age of thirty should be able to immigrate and no special treatment for relatives.

        • SaveNZ 8.1.2.1
          19 November 2018 at 4:54 pm

          Yep but they are finding migrants under 30 aint working out either, because they get crap wages, have kids and stop work and go overseas as soon as they can. They they get married, divorced, married again, each time could be a new partner, new dowry or what have you. Then the original applicant’s parents can come in, then the partner’s relatives can come in, etc etc. Or start a business that requires low wage workers and then make them pay to work for you! Sometimes it’s just a paper company and doesn’t even exist.

          Immigration used to be a privilege with specific skills to be found outside of NZ, language tests being required. Marriage was sacred and people get not get divorced. Divorce was unusual and frowned upon, 30 years ago across most cultures. Nowadays immigration seems to be more a rout for everyone involved to make money and exchange cash or it’s just as a temporary thing that you get, then extract benefits from.

          Not sure how someone being lonely can now justify a massive deficit for NZ citizens when many people find each other on line and bringing them in to become residents in 11 days.

          The criteria is flawed, the overriding consideration should be is there clear benefit for NZ society for the person’s lifetime aka accounting for health and having children aka will they be able to support a family on their wages over a lifetime without top ups from other taxpayers?

          People don’t die at 65 anymore either so there needs to be a much longer qualifying period of 20 years and if they lie on their application or their circumstances change then they go back to their home country.

          Life should not be about bludging off other countries and hardworking people who still have a welfare system, and destroying it for them by abusing it or government policy that is just plain stupid.

          • greywarshark 8.1.2.1.1
            19 November 2018 at 7:02 pm

            savenz
            Be careful with your head as you go round. I am amazed at the realistic stuff that you comment on. You seem to really be on the button. I don’t know all your profess to do but it hands together so well that I guess it’s better than rith 80:20.

            That bit about the shuttlecock, no bad meanings here, going back and forth with new partners, getting another dowry, that I guess could be happening.
            My sister worked at a hospital clinic in Auckland and commented on how as soon as the immigrants arrive they are at the services, which would be expected if they have come from poor places. But the government and taxpayer is expected to cover this, while the business is paying minimum wage and nothing for overtime, or some dodge.

            Meanwhile employment stats are crook, the 1 hour paid work people boosting employment stats and with the unemployment you get the beaten down people who hate the contempt or the unproductive time they have to put in looking for, and training for stink jobs, so they no longer register.
            Down go the unemployment stats and up go the requests for cheap immigrants, that add to the burden on the country. They want us to be the new world Calcutta in Auckland I think. How glamorous to be like they are overseas, we always admire things they do elsewhere!

            • WeTheBleeple 8.1.2.1.1.1
              19 November 2018 at 8:31 pm

              I’ve been offered two brides that came with cash. Once about 25 years ago with 10K attached, and once about ten years ago sum undisclosed.

              This did not fit my plans for marrying Tandi Wright. 😉

        • Craig H 8.1.2.2
          19 November 2018 at 8:50 pm

          Or temporary visas as they leave before they cost anything.

      • Tamati Tautuhi 8.1.3
        19 November 2018 at 4:54 pm

        Our Immigration Policy has been ugly and we appear more concerned about immigrants right’s than those of our own people.

        • SaveNZ 8.1.3.1
          19 November 2018 at 5:04 pm

          +1 Tamati Tautuhi

          and weirdly some of the cultures think we are completely reliant on their foreign capital, mostly because the neoliberals in Labour and Natz and the MSM keep spouting that message.

          We have done fine until our government started selling off assets. Look at BNZ it was fine until it was part privatised and then cost everyone dearly when our government decided to bail them out. That also set the poverty rolling in NZ and corporate welfare rising.

          NZ’s people did better overall with out all the foreign investment…

          I’m not against foreign investment but it’s got to the point when NZ are not just tenants in their own country, but paying for rich retiree’s from other countries and even their marriages now as well as the lifestyle and legal fees of foreign drug smugglers!

          • Tamati Tautuhi 8.1.3.1.1
            19 November 2018 at 5:07 pm

            We were in the Top 5 Countries in the OECD in the mid 1970’s, been all downhill since then.

    • One Two 8.2
      19 November 2018 at 9:22 am

      11 (days)…

      There’s that number, again..

      • SaveNZ 8.2.1
        19 November 2018 at 10:17 am

        These days relationships seem to happen within days and then poof just as quickly people are getting divorced.

        Just because someone wants to marry someone else should not entitle that person to come to NZ and then start the process to becoming a NZer. There should be at least 20 years before anyone can get permanent residency here and citizenship and health and welfare support from tax payers. If the love is genuine then they should support their loved one, themselves. I’m pretty sure you can’t get free health care in OZ even if you work there. Only refugees should have an exception.

        We need our taxes presently being frittered away by poor government policy to pay the doctors, nurses, teachers and the infrastructure that more people need.

        Relying on families who seem to change their mind on applications of support aka a divorce or abandon their parents should require a bond similar to the courts like a lean on their house and payment if their relationship does not work out and the state has to start paying welfare/health for that person’s sponsored spouse. Compulsory legal advice etc, so that people stop getting duped by migrants and marrying someone who is mentally not competent should not result in residency or shouldn’t be allowed in the first place! https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12123831

        There should also be consequences for sponsors when things go wrong. However by by having a much longer period before someone is entitled to anything in NZ, would also remove all the current incentives there are to come here apart from a genuine relationship.

        It is not fair that when relationships are going wrong with migrants, they end up getting supported by the taxpayers here and to make matters worse legal aid and years to litigation over the technicalities!

        We have 17,000 of our own residents expecting to use the Salvation Army for Xmas and third world diseases coming back into NZ. This is due to many factors but having so many people accessing our health system and living in NZ on technicalities and then becoming another person (with money) to support here is just not fair while people born here are going backwards paying for it all or competing against more and more people using social services.

        I’m also in favour of compulsory tax for health insurance here in NZ payable before entering our country, and it being compulsory that they hold it for the entire time they are here.

        NZ needs to wake up to cheap travel and globalism as well as relationships that last a lifetime are rare to nonexistent now.

        Maybe in the 1970’s we could afford to have relaxed laws on health care, travel and immigration here and pick up the tab when things go wrong for (mostly) rich foreigners and people’s relationships, but those days are over now we have so many of our own in dire poverty and 30% illiterate.

        Spend the money on our own kids and adults, they need it more!

        • One Two 8.2.1.1
          19 November 2018 at 10:54 am

          NZ has been very ‘generous’ towards the funding and supporting of recent arrivals. It is not a new phenomenon.

          If the funding was equitable across the spectrum then that would be something NZ could claim to be leading on….but that is not what is happening…

          Funding shortfalls and cuts, continue while inequality and inequity rise, and will continue to do so…

          It makes for lazy opportinity to segment groups even furrther and target emotive responses to where they should not be…

          The fault is with successive governments and political system in general, who are beholden to failed economic models and ideology…

          Meanwhile people suffer

          • SaveNZ 8.2.1.1.1
            19 November 2018 at 12:07 pm

            BTW – also think that workplaces should also have to have to supply a significant ‘bond’ that is activated if the job doesn’t work out, and the job needs to be guaranteed for 5 years for people to come here..

            It is too easy to make people redundant in NZ and so you are getting companies hiring people from overseas cheaply then dumping them with few consequences or making them pay for the job.

            This is bad enough if the people are Kiwis born here, but if companies are importing in overseas workers who may struggle with finding another niche job or might not be suited to work here in the first place, the burden is going onto the taxpayer and the infrastructure in NZ over a persons lifetime and contributing to our worsening skills levels in NZ, low productivity and high welfare and social needs like hospitals and schools.

            The business owners need to guarantee their sponsors unemployment support, redundancy, or paternity/maternity leave of their sponsored employees not the taxpayers for 5 years if the job does not work out … pretty sure that would ensure more genuine employers and truely highly skilled people, who have been vetted well, can come here, rather than ‘middlemen’ making a fortune off the immigration process and all the negatives and risks picked up by NZ taxpayer and routs going unchecked.

  9. Observer Tokoroa 9
    19 November 2018 at 8:15 am

    Irritation

    The Trolls – and I include smug Guyon Espiner and his equally low IQ colleagues – are misfits. They have always been stuck up misery loners. Right from Kindergarten.

    As you know, they have no interest in allowing commenters to share thoughts and develop ideas that improve Life and advance Progress in New Zealand.

    Ignore the Misfits entirely. They hate that.

    Ignore Simon Bridges too. For he is a smug misfit too – always telling us how wonderful he is. Always on the microphone and video. Simon is just a Troll.

    • mpledger 9.1
      19 November 2018 at 8:54 am

      I happened to listen in to RNZ when they were interviewing someone from the West Coast about a 300kg safe that had been stolen. It was a bit of a fun story but the interviewer treated the interviewee with total disrespect. It was like the interviewer thought ordinary Kiwis were beneath him.

    • DJ Ward 9.2
      19 November 2018 at 11:57 am

      You just trolled spouting misery.

    • Jilly Bee 10.1
      19 November 2018 at 11:24 am

      A cunning plan, indeed.

    • DJ Ward 10.2
      19 November 2018 at 11:58 am

      About time they did Brexit. After all the people voted for it.

      • Macro 10.2.1
        19 November 2018 at 1:14 pm

        Actually DJ the people had no idea WTF they were voting for. Now they do and by and large they don’t like it!

        • DJ Ward 10.2.1.1
          19 November 2018 at 3:29 pm

          How can you say that.
          It was a vote on leaving the EU.
          Simple, end of story.

          You would be correct in saying they didn’t vote for the political ineptitude in making it happen.

          • Macro 10.2.1.1.1
            19 November 2018 at 4:29 pm

            It was a vote on leaving the EU.
            Simple, end of story.

            And that is the simpletons (Nationalists) way of looking at it.

            The people had no idea of what leaving would involve in a modern world and in a Continent with virtually no borders. They were fed a pack of lies by the leave campaign funded by large amounts of money fed into that campaign illegally from off shore. They imagined a return to the past when Britain was once Great Britain, but that nostalgia was hugely misguided in a modern interconnected world. BTW it was largely the elderly rural voters of England that voted for Brexit, the voters of Northern Ireland and Scotland voted in the majority to remain.
            Even as we speak that stupidity is costing the UK around $1B NZ dollars per week. The economy is one of the worst performing in the developed world. Their health system is on its knees as professional staff exit the UK in their droves,* London’s financial sector – once the powerhouse of the financial world and employing 10,000’s of thousands – is but a shell of what it once was as major financial and insurance companies exit to Europe**. Car and aeroplane manufactures shut down factories*** .
            May has tried to get the best deal possible (given the fact that tariffs and border controls following a “hard” Brexit will be catastrophic) within the parameters she was handed, to ensure that the UK doesn’t collapse into 3rd world status. Frankly, I think she needs to go back to the people and say – “Well this is the best we can do.. Do you want to continue with this madness or not?”
            I know what the resulting answer would be.

            *
            https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/brexit-nhs-doctors-leave-eu-uk-health-service-latest-germany-spain-australia-a8053011.html

            **https://www.relocatemagazine.com/brexit-what-lies-ahead-for-the-uks-financial-services-mcurphey-spr18

            Around 1.1 million people work in Britain’s financial sector and it is an important source of corporate tax revenue for the UK government.
            London could lose 10,000 banking jobs and 20,000 roles in financial services as clients move 1.8 trillion euros ($2.1 trillion) of assets out of the UK on Brexit, according to think-tank Bruegel.
            This would have a very significant impact on the UK economy as the financial services industry creates an estimated £190 billion worth of value a year, equivalent to around 12 per cent of the total UK economy.

            ***
            https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/aug/04/uk-car-industry-facing-an-utterly-demoralising-brexit

            • Draco T Bastard 10.2.1.1.1.1
              19 November 2018 at 5:12 pm

              London’s financial sector – once the powerhouse of the financial world and employing 10,000’s of thousands – is but a shell of what it once was as major financial and insurance companies exit to Europe

              That’s probably going to be good for them. It was, after all, the financial sector that fucked over the UK and the rest of the global economy leading up to and after the GFC.

              • Macro …
                19 November 2018 at 5:28 pm

                Well that is true wrt to the GFC. however there is the need to factor in up to 30,000 lost jobs and the resulting impact that has on the economy. Why is the financial sector under threat?

                The Bank of England has issued its strongest warning yet to the EU that its lack of adequate planning for Brexit has created growing risks for almost £70tn of complex financial contracts.

                Threadneedle Street said the bloc had made only limited progress to protect the financial system and time was running out, with little more than six months before the UK is due to leave the EU.

                Stressing the urgency of the situation in a statement from its financial policy committee, the Bank said: “In the limited time remaining, it is not possible for companies on their own to mitigate fully the risks of disruption to cross-border financial services.”

                Without action, the contracts governing the financial derivatives – currently sold across the UK-EU border by banks to companies looking to protect themselves from movements in interest rates and changes in global markets – could be rendered illegal the moment Britain leaves, it warned.

                EU firms have about £69tn of outstanding derivatives contracts that are handled through a process known as “clearing” in the UK, while as much as £41tn mature after Britain exits the EU in March 2019.

                In a corner of the finance industry worth more than three times the overall value of the EU economy, the process of clearing derivatives involves banks organising their trades through a central third-party organisation – known as a clearing house – which takes on the risk of either party defaulting.

          • greywarshark 10.2.1.1.2
            19 November 2018 at 7:06 pm

            OMG Can’t we get some more commenters who aren’t postboxes in reverse. Having narrow slots that expel their narrow ideas and lack of active brain work and analysis.

  11. SaveNZ 11
    19 November 2018 at 9:19 am

    It should be compulsory that anyone on a motorbike or high powered scooter, dirt bike or even a bike should have to wear a High Visability Vest so that people can see them much easier once they get on public roads.

    There are just too many accidents especially in NZ where you often have a lot of other obstacles to navigate so that having hi vis vest would prevent a lot of accidents or have people less injured if a driver can react quicker upon seeing them.

    Also support a higher level of licence test of those on high powered bikes.

    Men in ‘mid-life crisis’ causing motorcycle deaths – Nash
    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/376234/men-in-mid-life-crisis-causing-motorcycle-deaths-nash

    • WeTheBleeple 11.1
      19 November 2018 at 9:53 am

      Agreed. I nearly pulled in front of a bike on Saturday as I just didn’t see him. His saving grace was that he was moving, invisible otherwise with everything else going on.

      I used to bike every day but it’s a dangerous place that inner city. Symonds St after rain is a slick shiny nightmare of interweaving buses. Not good.

      So yeah, bikes need more safety, but also, need to take some of this responsibility on. They’ve no idea how invisible they can be.

      Enforce the flouro!

      • greywarshark 11.1.1
        19 November 2018 at 7:15 pm

        I echo that WtB. Someone coming towards me on a roundabout with headlights behind him didn’t light him up, he was at the side I think, but completely invisible. Cyclists think they are sacred, want to dodge around the traffic thinking that they will be out of the way quickly so don’t need to take care, don’t give hand signals etc.

        I think it is time to demand licences for all bikes; they are right to want to use the pedal-power but to be practical are slower and not as safe as cars and need to be aware on the road. Mirrors that turn from left to right showing state of traffic behind etc. Some of the bikes are expensive and the riders can afford some better fancy gear. Is there a fabric with impregnated lights that could start flashing a left turn arrow and an orange flashing look here light for truckers benefit when they go to turn left. Cyclists need to remember they need to adopt different tactics to their usual car driving ones, where they do much as they please.

    • Sabine 11.2
      19 November 2018 at 9:55 am

      Rider here,

      i have a helmet, back brace, armoured jacket, armoured pants, armored boots, gloves.

      I have a nice bright tangerine colored 850cc bike.

      And i have been run over by a driver in a white car, who ‘did not see me while i was standing in front of the white line, giving way to oncoming traffic as the law obliged me too’. He ran me over because he was not looking.

      So I request that all car drivers learn how to stay in their lane, especially if they are driving a Truck, or Ute, or a truck / trailer, or a remuera houswife mover, or a logging/delivery Truck.

      I expect all car drivers to learn how to slow down when coming into the twisties where they can see fuck all, just because there is a 100 km sign does not mean you can actually drive tho.

      I expect all car drivers to go to the hospital and see the aftermath of alcohol and driving.

      I expect all car drives to not overtake on yellow lanes

      For the record, most of us already wear high viz, have super loud pipes, come in groups of several to many , and we still get run over by people ‘who did not see us’ generally because they are not looking. And for what its worth, these same people aren’t looking for you in your car, or while on foot, or while on a bike. they are always only looking to where they are going.

      • WeTheBleeple 11.2.1
        19 November 2018 at 10:06 am

        Not exactly true only to your experience. I’m always looking for bikes because they’re so damn hard to spot.

        Yes a lot of drivers are ignorant a-holes, much as they conduct themselves in life.

        Not all of them, most would be horrified to cause harm.

        It’s a two way thing. You expect a lot of drivers. Bike riders don’t drink? I was a regular in a pub full of bikers who got loaded and rode off every weekend for years and years.

        Without all that safety gear you wear, would you ride in Auckland?

        We’d all hope drivers obey yellow lines, alcohol limits, etc. But the stupid live among us too.

        • aj 11.2.1.1
          19 November 2018 at 10:46 am

          Been riding bikes since the early 70’s and a still have a couple of classic Hondas. I don’t ride often now because the volume of traffic is scary. Always ride with lights on. I would never ride in Auckland. Yes the stupid live amongst us and in the Southland accident it sounds like there was at least one bike on the wrong side of the road. Other factors that may have been in play, we don’t know. Motorcyclists taking racing lines on road is nothing new, but is exceedingly dangerous. If people want to do this, Clubs have track days, far safer than road riding anyway. Many riders between 45-65 are new to bikes and don’t have experience. Having said that, every driver/rider should know to Stay. On. Your. Side. Of. The. Road. Period.

          • Sabine 11.2.1.1.1
            19 November 2018 at 10:55 am

            one of the reasons i hate twisties in NZ, is the open road of 100 km given.

            No you can not do a hundred on the forgotten highway.
            No logging truck you can not do a hundred on the one laned morris minor sized ‘motorway’ and stay in your lane.
            No bikies, your formation is to tight, you are too close to the white line, and you are not save.

            lack of common sense is the biggest killer on our roads.

            • Draco T Bastard 11.2.1.1.1.1
              19 November 2018 at 12:00 pm

              lack of common sense is the biggest killer on our roads.

              Common sense isn’t.

              It’s actually a lack of thinking it through. A lack of thinking about the consequences of their actions.

        • Sabine 11.2.1.2
          19 November 2018 at 10:47 am

          The main issue that drivers have is that they are underestimating the speed of bikers. As the surface of vision is so small most get it wrong. And that is what scares drivers here in NZ. (And i have been told that so many times, suddenly out of nowhere a biker). No mate, the biker was there, in your rear view mirror you saw him, you just underestimated his/her speed.

          I don’t say bikers don’t drink, i don’t say that bikers are not bad riders, some truly are.

          But a high viz vest is not going to help you if you are not looking for them.

          The problem NZ has and will have until it changes to compulsory driving lessons with certified trainers is simple, bad driver teaching new drivers how to become bad drivers. No communication on the road, aggressive driving – rugby mentality i.e. must fight for every yard, not riding/driving to the limits of the road/environment etc.

          I was hit twice, once by that white car, once by a women undertaking me while approaching an intersection. She complained that i had not indicated left, so she assumed i was not going left, and undertook on a single laned road. You can’t beat that type of attitude with a Hi Viz. She saw me, she was impatient, she could not wait for me to choose my direction, she hit me.

          And that type of attitude kills bikies, while it does very little to the driver. She got done for insurance fraud in the end, but still.

          this country needs better drivers, and riders.

          • Draco T Bastard 11.2.1.2.1
            19 November 2018 at 12:06 pm

            The main issue that drivers have is that they are underestimating the speed of bikers.

            As a cyclist to me it’s obvious that drivers seriously underestimate the speed of bicycles. Even when they obviously see them they make serious misjudgement of the cyclists speed. IMO, they see a bicycle and think it’s only a bicycle and so it must be going slow and then ignore it.

            She complained that i had not indicated left, so she assumed i was not going left, and undertook on a single laned road.

            Undertaking is actually illegal in this country.

            this country needs better drivers, and riders.

            QFT

          • WeTheBleeple 11.2.1.2.2
            19 November 2018 at 1:56 pm

            Absolutely agree here. Remember defensive driving courses? Are they still around?

            My Dad got a medal for 30 years no accidents then a week later a bloke pulling out in a ute that failed to see his Milk Tanker & Trailer travelling at 30kph.

            Dead ute driver, crippled Dad.

            They told him he’d never walk again, but we don’t listen to experts with nothing decent to offer. Dad’s been back on his feet for decades.

            I have a road rule, treat every other driver as if they are a fucking idiot. Never assume they are not. Saved me a few times.

            • OnceWasTim 11.2.1.2.2.1
              22 November 2018 at 2:28 pm

              I have a tale that’s something similar – defensive driving course and all.
              I’m not sure they are still around [Defensive Driving Courses]. They should be compulsory but I imagine some cost benefit analysis done by some imported sage from NZTA (possibly the same one that brought us roundabout rules your average Kiwi can’t understand) thought they were of little use.

            • Robert Guyton 11.2.1.2.2.2
              22 November 2018 at 2:37 pm

              Hi WTB
              I’ve done a little thinking about our idea to create a dedicated post and have put those thoughts here:
              https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-21-11-2018/#comment-1553011
              should you would care to consider them.

      • greywarshark 11.2.2
        19 November 2018 at 7:17 pm

        And those drivers believe that the road where they want to go belongs to them, and it is such a nuisance when someone else wants to be on the same patch of earth. Car drivers need to have some re-education after an accident and make a small donation at least to the injured, and this should be in law.

    • bwaghorn 11.3
      19 November 2018 at 11:53 am

      They call motorcyclists temporary kiwis for a reason.

    • Draco T Bastard 11.4
      19 November 2018 at 11:53 am

      It should be compulsory that anyone on a motorbike or high powered scooter, dirt bike or even a bike should have to wear a High Visability Vest so that people can see them much easier once they get on public roads.

      We need that for pedestrians as well. They walk down cycle paths at night in dark clothing and no lights endangering the cyclists. And, yes, a cycleway is a public road.

      BTW, motorbikes and bicycles almost always have their lights turned on.

      There are just too many accidents especially in NZ where you often have a lot of other obstacles to navigate so that having hi vis vest would prevent a lot of accidents or have people less injured if a driver can react quicker upon seeing them.

      Have you ever considered that the person in the car is at fault for simply not looking?

      • David Mac 11.4.1
        19 November 2018 at 12:31 pm

        The Hells Angel patch in fluro vinyls would be Tokyo cool but I can’t see the boys queuing up to be anime bikers.

    • OnceWasTim 11.5
      19 November 2018 at 2:03 pm

      NZer’s drive like they’re in some sort of competition, and they’re among the world’s worst drivers in my experience.
      Travelling back from the Kapiti Coast just now, none of the cars ahead seemed to be conscious of their surroundings. All four of those ahead yacking on their fucking cell phones – which explained why they were unable to keep any sort of constant speed, let alone staying within the lane they were in. A complete inability to ‘read’ the road ahead, or take advantage of rear vision mirrors, or those levery looking things on the side of the steering column, or the inability to judge distance such that a 2 second rule is actually a 1 second rule.
      An over-competitive nature, along with diminishing spatial awareness (which I suspect is partly down to people inhabiting whatever little bubble that turns them on is), and only ever being open to stimuli that they solicit as opposed to open and interested in the unsolicited, is not a good combination when it comes to driving.

      • KJT 11.5.1
        21 November 2018 at 2:04 pm

        You have obviously not been to many other countries.

        Don’t see the international roundabout approach technique, foot on the accelerator, hand on the horn and a rude sign with the other, much in New Zealand, for one.

        • OnceWasTim 11.5.1.1
          22 November 2018 at 2:16 pm

          Actually @KJT, I’ve been to very many, and I’ve even indulged in the hand-on-horn and ‘flasher’ technique myself.
          I still contend that NuZullners see driving as a competition, and are under some deluded idea that they’re able to multi-task better than others on the planet, when most can’t even walk down the fucking street whilst texting and keeping in the most basic rules.
          And if you subjected most NuZullners to that “roundabout approach technique, foot on the accelerator, hand on the horn” system, we’d be looking for ways to repatriate bodies back to Godzone with minimal impek to the Tax Payer.

          • OnceWasTim 11.5.1.1.1
            22 November 2018 at 2:51 pm

            Btw @ KJT, my papa ji taught me some valuable lessons when at the age of 15.
            The first was NEVER rely on your brakes
            The second was ALWAYS read the road ahead (thing’s like following distances and others’ ability/inability to judge speed)
            and the THIRD was a consciousness of surroundings – including what’s behind.

            The cost benefit analysers have all come to the conclusion that speed is an overarching cause, and easiest to enforce – and that’s probably true. But things like following distances, inattention in the belief our multitasking skills are better than they actually are, a blind faith that all others are as wonderful as we think we are……….. etc. will see us through
            And actually there was a fourth – but it involved the perception of testosterone levels in others. Unfortunately he didn’t consider alcohol levels in others and was wiped out on a pedestrian crossing by someone over the limit in 1980

            • KJT 11.5.1.1.1.1
              22 November 2018 at 7:59 pm

              Up our way, the biggest cause of accidents seem to be cars on the wrong side of the road, on blind corners.

  12. Cinny 12
    19 November 2018 at 9:20 am

    Here’s to all the men out there, today is your day.

    International Men’s Day.

  13. Morrissey 13
    19 November 2018 at 9:37 am

    Violent groups are using the popular computer game Fortnite
    as a means of recruitment.

    This is really disgusting.

    https://mashable.com/article/us-army-esports-fortnight/?utm_cid=a-rr-tech

    • Puckish Rogue 13.1
      19 November 2018 at 11:23 am

      Video games ftw!

      http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/news/feature-stories/2009/20090415-ascwgobe.htm

      This is what the NZDF (amongst others) are already using:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VBS1

      (Ignore the music)

    • Draco T Bastard 13.2
      19 November 2018 at 12:14 pm

      The US army has been doing video game recruitment for awhile:

      The game was originally envisioned by Lt. Col Casey Wardynski in 1999, who at the time was the director of the Office of Economic and Manpower Analysis at West Point. His idea was to reach out more effectively to young Americans, taking notice of the popularity of first-person shooters among his own young sons. This concept somehow survived the gauntlet of Army bureaucracy that befalls a litany of other “good-idea fairies.” and was given the go-ahead shortly after. The first official full release was in July 2002, dubbed “Recon,” which was a multiplayer component of the game. The game has gone through several different developers over the years, but the latest version is produced by the Army Game Studio, part of the AMRDEC Software Engineering Directorate at Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville Alabama.

      Doesn’t seem to be working too well.

  15. Professor Longhair 15
    19 November 2018 at 11:45 am

    Dershowitz is a fraud who has been memorably humiliated by, amongst others, Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky.

  16. joe90 16
    19 November 2018 at 11:49 am

    The past lives.

    WATCH: Fights broke out between far-right protesters and feminist anti-fascist activists at a rally marking the death of the dictator Francisco Franco. pic.twitter.com/5thNNQegdH— NBC News (@NBCNews) November 18, 2018

    https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1064282098851332096

    • adam 16.1
      19 November 2018 at 4:24 pm

      Like how far right men think it’s Ok to kick someone who face down in the dirt.

      Also lets you know where right wing thinking is at when they happy to do it to women as well.

  17. greywarshark 17
    19 November 2018 at 11:56 am

    James and Ed setting the subject and tone this morning it seems.

    • Anne 19.1
      19 November 2018 at 5:39 pm

      While it is worded in a way to encompass all rich people and their obsession for accumulating wealth at the expense of the vast majority, one can’t help but wonder if it was prompted by the current situation on the Mexican border with the US and Donald Trump’s response to it.

      Uggh… the mere mention of that name is enough to cause the hairs on the back of my neck to rise with rage.

      • RedLogix 19.1.1
        19 November 2018 at 6:05 pm

        Trump is a complex phenomenon. Rage is one response, but talking with a lot of Americans you get to hear other sides of the story.

        The man is a god awful lout, and someone really should shutdown his Twitter account. But he represents something real and in some ways he has a legitimate meaning for many voters.

        • Anne 19.1.1.1
          19 November 2018 at 6:44 pm

          … he represents something real and in some ways he has a legitimate meaning for many voters.

          I cannot agree although I understand the logic in so far as his many followers believe he is legitimate and real. But in truth he is a pathological liar who is beyond redemption and he has no intellectual capacity whatsoever. Cunning and deceitful he may be, but that is no substitute for intelligence.

          He is still willfully denying Climate Change in the face of the catastrophic fires in California. To me that is someone in a powerful position who represents an horrific danger to the entire planet on that basis alone.

          • RedLogix 19.1.1.1.1
            19 November 2018 at 8:39 pm

            Oh God yes, his denialism drives me insane. His tweets about the fires infuriated most of CA.

            But here’s the thing, he’s not entirely wrong about the need for better fire management either.

            He’s a tricky bugger and we keep underestimating him, and not understanding the Democrat failures that have enabled him.

            • Macro 19.1.1.1.1.1
              19 November 2018 at 9:06 pm

              Those fires are in Federal forests. So if anyone is to be doing forest management, it is the Govt of which he is supposedly in charge.
              Furthermore the forests are tinder dry after extended drought – the probability of such extreme weather exacerbated by Climate Change.
              Also when Right wingers talk of “forest management” what they are really talking about is clear felling. The result of this type of operation does not actually reduce the risk of fire but because of increased litter left by logging actually increases the risk.

    • Ad 19.2
      19 November 2018 at 8:02 pm

      The current Pope sounds more like an Assisi Franciscan.

      But his big statement last year on the relationship between environmental degradation, climate change and poverty was still the benchmark that I haven’t seen any theorist equal let along a major world leader.

      Now, if he could just defrock all the sex-crime priests and throw them in jail …

  20. Morrissey 20
    19 November 2018 at 5:47 pm

    With a straight face this afternoon, Catherine Robertson
    described Barack “Bomber” Obama as “definitely lawful.”
    The Panel, RNZ National, Monday 19 November 2018
    Jim Mora, James Elliott, Catherine Robertson, Caitlin Cherry

    After the 4:30 news, the Panelists get a chance to say what is “on their minds.” For her two cents’ worth, Catherine Robertson (apparently she is “a writer”) announced that she would keep it light and breezy: she recently filled out a 117 question questionnaire on line to find out what kind of Dungeons and Dragons character she would be. Turns out she’s normal, “human” and “lawful”, or something. She then speculated that Donald Trump would be characterised as “chaotic”. In contrast to the chaotic Trump, she averred, “Barack Obama is definitely lawful.”

    I know this was supposed to be a lighthearted little segment, but that statement, delivered with not a hint of irony, was just too much to bear. What bothered me even more than Robertson’s harebrained blithering was the silence of her fellow Panelist James Elliott. He, like everyone else who heard Robertson’s foolish blurt, would have realized how drastically wrong she was. But he decided to remain silent. What a contrast to Friday’s brilliant panelist James Nokise. [1]

    I sent off the following email to the host….

    Barack Obama was NOT “definitely lawful”.

    Dear Jim,

    Please remind your panelist Catherine Robertson that Barack Obama oversaw a vast program of drone assassinations in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, and Yemen. It was all illegal. He also presided over the regime of the dreaded ICE in the United States.

    Catherine Robertson rightly noted that Donald Trump is “chaotic”, but her subsequent comment, that “Barack Obama is definitely lawful” is wrong.

    Yours sincerely,

    Morrissey Breen
    Northcote Point

    This crap episode of this crap program then proceeded to get much worse. It moved from harebrained to depraved: more sniggering and sneering at the suffering of Julian Assange. I’m working on the transcript to this horror and will post it up tomorrow.

    [1] https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-17-11-2018/#comment-1551030

    • Bewildered 20.1
      19 November 2018 at 7:07 pm

      Stop listening Mozz, why do you wind yourself up each day to simply stenograph and bomb is all about how wound up you are that sone one disagrees with you and your immense brain has not been recognised Chill hombre, live a little, your friend Bewildered

      • DJ Ward 20.1.1
        19 November 2018 at 10:03 pm

        Yes Barrack is old news and is now only reference for how great Trump is in comparison.

      • Morrissey 20.1.2
        20 November 2018 at 11:24 am

        Thanks for the concern, my friend. Actually, I don’t simply stenograph what I hear on radio and television. I try to provide a context, and also to underline the nonverbals, the pauses, the subtle things that often say so much more than the bare transcription of words. It’s got me into a lot of controversy here and elsewhere: for instance, many people were upset by my careful delineation of every little pause and mirthless chuckle by Helen Clark when she was interviewed by Chris Laidlaw a few years ago….

        https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2018/11/to-try-and-make-lives-of-people-better.html

        All the best, Bewildered, and thanks again for your solicitations.

  21. Morrissey 21
    19 November 2018 at 6:17 pm

    The United States is not the only country with an imbecile holding the levers of power

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2018/oct/18/nationals-leadership-tensions-boil-over-politics-live

    “In Canberra last week I met some Australian members of parliament. It gave me hope, because until I heard them speak I had always thought that Israel’s right wing politicians were the worst. —-(LAUGHTER)— I’ve never heard any Israeli politician speak about the Palestinian people the way that those Australian politicians did. But they are Australia’s problem, not mine.”

    —Gideon Levy, speaking in Auckland, Dec. 3, 2017
    https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-16-12-2017/#comment-1426789

  22. greywarshark 22
    19 November 2018 at 10:35 pm

    This DJ Ward interests me as he seems to be hitting the site, going for all the emotional points, one of these rw with poisoned barbs. I think this is going to be the style of things on this blog now. These amoral RW find satisfaction in turning the effort of keen lefties trying to build a template to go forward with. Draw the people’s attention from thinking about what is important for our future. We get in the way of making money. We must be derailed. The count of RWs is high in the comment list. And they are leading much of the discourse.

    • Incognito 22.1
      19 November 2018 at 10:59 pm

      Nah, not much discourse happening here nowadays. As BM was saying @ 5.2 it’s all about scent-marking and dropping your opinion and then run for the hills (AKA spray and walk away). And, of course, baiting others for a quick laugh and cheap thrill because life is utterly boring for some.

      Occasionally, there’s a seed of a debate, a hint of discourse, a glimmer of hope. But then some intellectual heavyweight has to go for a blow below the belt because they cannot muster a proper defence in response to a heated exchange of verbal volleys. Losers.

      • greywarshark 22.1.1
        20 November 2018 at 10:26 am

        Well incognito you have baited for a quick laugh and got me! Please don’t spray and run away, we need you.

    • Gabby 22.2
      19 November 2018 at 10:59 pm

      He’s a bit like the kiwibugger oldfart.

  23. eco maori 23
    20 November 2018 at 7:11 am

    Kia ora The Am Show I was just thinking that Carlos /Nissan was a sharp operator with the Nissan Leaf being a top selling electric car and Nissan brand sales growing well.
    I say it is good to give aid to our Pacific cousins they are getting a lot of help now and that is good for the Pacific regions. Just as long as they spend there win fall on the correct thing’s Health education renewable energy Climate Change mitigation help for all the people and not just the wealthy . We will benefit from the skill’s that are taught there If they spend on education when they move here and that is going to happen with Global warming and sea level rise . Love thy neighbour is what is needed for a happy civilization . I bet a happy civilization is much more prosperous than one that wages war on thy neigbour’s . .The people in the Pacific have a lot harder life and lower living standard than us .
    Yes that is what’s needed 5G internet for rual school children to do there home work and business to have good internet to thrive .
    That was about the only democratic thing national have done over the last 10 years as everyone has benefited from the fiber broad band roll out .
    I wonder If some one is trying to breed Kauri that are Resistance to the Kauri die back virus
    I back save Musfua the White Lion its sad that the NZ Lion sanctuary has had big problems .
    Ka kite ano

    .

  24. eco maori 24
    20 November 2018 at 7:54 am

    The Am Show Bull you can ring a cop and they don’t turn up and those ten cases of speeding are only the ones were they forgot were the speed camera’s are what about all the other speeding events . Stop trying to cast a perfect image on the cops just because people join the police force does not make them automatically PERFECT they are human They use every trick in the book to do protect there image whether it hurts other people and this tact tick just lets them make a mess and it gets covered up .
    Mark it is quite easy to work out or tho it mite a bit out of your ability IF our neighbors are healthy it is good for Aotearoa WHY because if a infectious virus is created because of poverty it could easily spread to Aotearoa prevention is better and cheaper than cure the ambulance at the top of the hill instead of one at the bottom work smarter not harder Ka kite ano P.S Many thanks to Europee’s for making a stand and highlighting OUR MAUI DOLPHINS high risks of becoming extinct

  25. eco maori 25
    20 November 2018 at 8:08 am

    I no you already new the public perception on OUR Aid you have your social media researcher’s I don’t have to worry about public opinion to much I just give the FACTS Ka kite ano

  26. eco maori 26
    20 November 2018 at 10:27 am

    These beautiful creature are our treasures we should be doing every thing we can to stop them going extinct
    Protect
    Save the Maui’s dolphin
    Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share via Email
    The rarest and smallest of its kind.

    New Zealand’s critically endangered Maui’s dolphin is the world’s smallest of its kind, and it’s on the brink of extinction. The tiny dolphins are found only in New Zealand coastal waters and are under threat from net fishing and oil exploration.
    Link Below ka kite ano

    https://www.greenpeace.org/new-zealand/act/save-the-mauis-dolphin/

  27. eco maori 27
    20 November 2018 at 11:12 am

    These muppet sandflys seem to be planning some thing if they manage to get someone to sign there false lies on that peice of paper I will fight there lies all the way to the highest court in the LAND and I will leaver them and there reputation in shattered pieces and anyone who is in on the sandflys cheating case against me or my immediate whano.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/108127129/retired-supreme-court-judge-john-mcgrath-dies

  28. eco maori 28
    20 November 2018 at 12:00 pm

    Pukana I can’t wait sandflys bring it on all the dirty cheating details will come out to the public like the sandflys constantly breaking into our house what about all the electrical appliances that have been blowing up to many for it not to be direct actions of the sanflys I put a dead lock in next minute they have the lock smith following me around I won’t say whom it is as other could lose an Eco Maori only cast a negative effects of peolpe who deserve it they just get the lock smith to give them a key muppets . Gisborne man will come out losthismarbles to and nofish dirty deads will come out to Pukana

  29. eco maori 29
    20 November 2018 at 4:33 pm

    To all you Human Caused Climate Change deniers stop all the trolling and get a real life I see you in all the story comments about HCCC stop bludgeoning of your parents and get a real job .

    In recent years, global warming has been the subject of a great deal of political controversy. As scientific knowledge has grown, this debate is moving away from whether humans are causing warming and toward questions of how best to respond.

    Signs that the Earth is warming are recorded all over the globe. The easiest way to see increasing temperatures is through the thermometer records kept over the past century and a half. Around the world, the Earth’s average temperature has risen more than 1 degree Fahrenheit (0.8 degrees Celsius) over the last century, and about twice that in parts of the Arctic Ka kite ano

    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/global-warming/global-warming-real/

  30. eco maori 30
    20 November 2018 at 6:39 pm

    Kia ora Newshub Some people don’t know what the word no mean’s they behave like spoilt tamariki I wonder what they do when there partners say no .
    Otago is getting a show of how strong Tawhirimate is .
    That BlackCaps win in Abu Dhabi shows the world how a team is when your country respects all cultures ka pai Patil .
    The mertal rust and Kauri die back is part of Global warming phenomenon I.E usually our cold weather would kill off any wind spread virus
    Kris I got your name wrong good on you for highlighting the car air bag problems and letting all of Aotearoa know about the faulty air bags .
    I don’t think Carlos will get ten year’s the rule’s are different for the wealthy around Papatuanuku than they are for the common person.
    How does someone con there way into a Psychologist Doctor’s job for 20 years .
    The Migrants would not be traveling all that way to Mexico on there way to America.
    If they had anything like a home they would not have left other wise.
    Ka kite ano

  31. eco maori 31
    20 November 2018 at 7:23 pm

    Kia ora The Crowd Goes James & Mulls Wild Yes good win for the Black Cap’s ka pai Patel I can remember when his mentor Dipak Patel was playing.
    The Football ferns are looking sharp Mana Wahine.
    Wairangi the 3 of uses at the Bowls guys cool that would be a sport I would get into only problem is my tail will upset things .
    Thats cool the 50 +World cup cricket Blacks Caps let’s hope lady luck is with the team. P.S had whano dutys last night
    Ka kite ano

  32. eco maori 32
    21 November 2018 at 6:01 am

    The way I see it We must work with Papatuanuku and not against Mother Earth KICK’S systems keep it simple .
    And whats is so hard about replanting the Tree’s that have been cut down in the last 200 year’s put a huge amount of effort and money into growing and planting .
    There is no need to build huge carbon capturing machines we just have to use the Machines God gave us Tree’s and return them to there rightful place covering all the land that is suit able to grow tree’s with a little assistance from humans to grow .
    Its not Rocket Science just logical common sense. Ka kite ano links below.
    We need to PLANT TREES on a unprecedented World scale this will create employment for the poor . I say the method using water retaining crystals like they have in Treasure Nappies is the most cost effective way to grow tree’s in a dry land scape
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVUAgcSCP_U

  35. Taylor 35
    28 November 2018 at 5:55 pm

    The workers do also have a responsibility. At Pike River, miners union (EPMU and forerunner) failed in representing workers industrial health and safety interests – with pay and benefits the most basic of workers welfare interests (which of course includes monitoring performance by Dept. Labour of mining safety responsibilities), Basically, this is partly the fault of trade union membership (such as it was) who permitted a takeover of their union (and trade unions generally) by people from the urban educated liberal elite who saw themselves as being more part of the “Labour Movement” than as trade union activists. This description seems to fit Andrew Little, miners union/EPMU General Secretary for 11 years – until he resigned to pursue the next stages of his labour movement political career – and perhaps also fits predecessor, Rex Jones, during which 11 years the rot set into mining safety – following the destruction of regulation by previous National Governments (left unremedied by the following Labour Government). Both Jones and Little apparently found time to be President of the Labour Party at the same time as being General Secretary of the Union. Mr Little apparently was not likely to robustly challenge the industrial safety policy failures of Labour Government Ministers of Labour and dereliction of duty by Dept. Labour chiefs.