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Open Mike 21/11/2018

Written By: - Date published: 5:59 am, November 21st, 2018 - 172 comments
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172 comments on “Open Mike 21/11/2018 ”

  1. Cinny 1

    Wtf, money over murder.

    trump has just declared he stands with the saudi’s on the Khashoggi assassination.

    I guess the USA is making too much money from the war in Yemen to worry about the saudi’s lying over murdering journalists.

    Despite US intelligence reportedly linking the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi to Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, President Donald Trump said on Tuesday, the US would continue to have a “steadfast” relationship with the kingdom.


    • Ed 1.1

      Without oil, the military industrial complex collapses.

      • Cinny 1.1.1

        True but the saudi’s are not the only ones who can supply oil.

        Re trumps Khashoggi decision, he was in a position to possibly put a halt to the war in Yemen, and he chose to sell weapons to the saudi’s to keep the war going instead. I’m really fucked off about it.

      • DJ Ward 1.1.2

        The US is a net energy exporter. The US Saudi relationship is a strategic one. Firstly to protect Israel and secondly as it’s an enemy of Iran. Was the enabler of the Iraq conflicts.

        People fought wars prior to oil. Your comment could be replaced by anything exploitable.

        The US has placed sanctions on people proven to be involved.
        Jacinda or Winston have sanctioned nobody.

        Saudi vs Yemen is a religous war that like Israel vs Palistinians has involved tit for tat events progressing into the dominate power applying complete oppression. The US was involved due to Yemens strong Al Qaeda links and attacks on shipping. They are now removing its enabling support to Saudi Arabias actions in Yemen.

        • bwaghorn

          The us has placed sanctions on the poor muppets the Saudi prince has thrown under the bus.

          • DJ Ward

            Well it’s actually based on the evidence gathered by Turkey. Confirmed by Saudi investigations. So you are probably correct about the Prince.

        • Draco T Bastard

          The US is a net energy exporter.

          But not for long.

          The US Saudi relationship is a strategic one. Firstly to protect Israel and secondly as it’s an enemy of Iran.

          True and totally immoral.

        • McFlock

          The US is a net energy exporter.

          net energy importer still, as of last year. And then there’s the fact that what’s holding it back is the importation of crude oil. I wonder where it gets that from?

          USDoE thinks you’re four years early in declaring mission accomplished.

          • DJ Ward

            “The United States became a net exporter of petroleum products in 2011 and natural gas in 2017. In 2017, the United States was a net exporter of coal, coal coke, petroleum products, natural gas, and biomass, but a net importer of crude oil. Net electricity trade with Mexico and Canada was relatively minimal.”

            Once you count Trumps anti Russian gas exports to the EU which have just been signed, not accounted for in your link they become overal net exporters.

            • McFlock

              What the actual fuck does Russian exports to the EU have to do with your claim “The US is a net energy exporter”? And it doesn’t matter if the US is a net exporter of some types of energy, it’s dependence on importing crude oil makes it a net energy importer. Your statement “The US is a net energy exporter” was categorically wrong.

        • Cinny

          Far out.

          Saudi’s keep breaking the cease fire.

          Re Al Qaeda in Yemen, crikey the USA+Saudi’s have been paying them money to leave, not fighting them, instead cashing them up and even recruiting them.

          ” Again and again over the past two years, a military coalition led by Saudi Arabia and backed by the United States has claimed it won decisive victories that drove al Qaeda militants from their strongholds across Yemen and shattered their ability to attack the West.

          Here’s what the victors did not disclose: many of their conquests came without firing a shot.

          That’s because the Saudi/USA coalition cut secret deals with al Qaeda fighters, paying some to leave key cities and towns and letting others retreat with weapons, equipment and wads of looted cash, an investigation by The Associated Press has found. Hundreds more were recruited to join the coalition itself.”

    • Yep he is an orange phlegm-cough. He shows his morals are non-existent – sad state of affairs.

      “In the extraordinary statement issued on Tuesday – which begins with the words “The world is a very dangerous place!” – Trump quotes Saudi officials as describing Khashoggi as an “enemy of the state”. ”


      • DJ Ward 1.2.1

        As a staunch member of the Muslim Brotherhood, supporter of Osama Bin Laden with many Personel meetings and advocate for creating a global Islamic state. Yes.

        • marty mars

          Your opinions are worthless – I’m not interested in them at all.

          • DJ Ward

            You haven’t explained how Trump was in any way responsible for the murder or why you think he should be held to account for the murder. The only thing he can realistically do is punish those proven to be responsible. He has done that with sanctions.

            Or how you justify our governments inaction.

            Diagnosis TDS.

          • DJ Ward

            Keep up the MSM propaganda line Marty.

            If you read Wiki you will see what I said is true.

            That doesn’t justify the murder.

            • Cinny

              djward…. “If you read Wiki you will see what I said is true.”

              LMFAO !!!!!!!!!! ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

              Dude, anyone with an email addy can change wiki content. JS

              And which wiki page are you referring to djward, that we need to read?

              It wasn’t just a murder, it was a pre-planned execution. Right down to a forensic expert who taught the clean up crew how to remove all traces of dna. Khasoggi was dismembered, then placed into suitcases and disposed of. It was brutal, especially for a person of the muslim faith, but they knew that, tis why thy did it that way.

              Thou shalt not speak out in the media about the saudi’s or you’ll be next.

              But it sure was well planned, even down to the person who left the embassy dressed in Khashoggi’s clothes, neglected to put on his shoes, which was the giveaway on the CCTV.

              The saudi’s lied about it, denied it ever happened, then hello, the story from the saudi’s kept changing.

              The CIA report ….”blindingly obvious” that Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman ordered the killing.

              And trump feel’s their trust worthy enough to sell weapons to? Wow.

              trump could have turned away from the saudi’s using Khashoggi (who is a dual US citizen) as an ‘excuse’, leading to hopefully the demise of the war in Yemen. But noooooo. What a fuckwit.

              • DJ Ward

                Did you read.
                The Saudis said.

                Not Trump.

                Nobody how much you hate them should be mocked for a comment that is not theirs. Especially when its not undeniable and has supporting facts.

                The victims Wiki page.
                I’m perfectly aware of the events just as much as you are. But thanks for your recap.

                How exactly do you suggest Trump exercises his powers as a dictator to stop this war. Oh wait, the senate.

    • Ad 1.3

      With all remaining large powers except the EU accelerrating their retreat from diplomatic norms that respect human rights, this statement is the official signpost to hell.

    • SaveNZ 1.4

      Yep and Khashoggi was a US citizen too. So Trump takes the money over his own citizens. Well not really surprising for a right winger. (and increasingly these days a left wing government).

    • bwaghorn 1.5

      Hardly surprising the Usa is always offing people .

      • DJ Ward 1.5.1

        The US had nothing to do with the events.
        Trump and the US have no responsibility to the events.

        While its appears obvious the Prince was involved, evidential links are scant.
        As the murder victim had US citizenship the US can bring the offenders to the US for trial. However they can’t get their hands on them for that to happen.

        Behind the scenes Trump has confronted this issue. He has said he has asked the Saudi leadership, and directly the Prince if the Prince ordered the killing on at least 5 occasions. The Saudi leadership deny the involvement of the Prince.

        While obviously bullshit what is Trump to do?
        Invade Saudi Arabia to get the Prince?

        Killing millions, and causing a global economic crash.

        • bwaghorn

          Did I say they were involved in this one ? My point is the us is a murderous state so they are hardly going to get to all upset when their friends do a bit of killing.

          • DJ Ward

            I don’t think the French care, or Germans, or Russians.

            So why put responsibility only on Trump.

            • Barfly

              $110 billion $US in arms sales – money or morals?

              Mind you, didn’t NZ hand over the French killers for the sake of selling sheep brains to the EU?

              • DJ Ward

                It’s not Trumps arm sales.
                It’s private companies doing the trade.
                He needs the House (Dems) and Senate (Reps) to act to restrict the economic activity of private Buisiness.

                If he just waved a wand saying you can’t do Buisiness then he truly would be a dictator. Plus he could be sued by the manufacturer.

                The Senate drives sanctions on North Korea, Iran, Russia. Not the President. It is the Senate that oversees arm sales.

                Many of these contracts are Obama era deals. He openly traded with this mysoginistic dictatorship as well. This ‘high profile’ murder is just one of hundreds of political killings over decades. The rational for attacking Trump is no different for Obamas actions.

                The US is far from Saudi Arabias only weaponry provider.

                • Gabby

                  Come off it dud4, it’s private companies running the government.

                • McFlock

                  He needs the House (Dems) and Senate (Reps) to act to restrict the economic activity of private Buisiness.

                  I do like how you pull bullshit out of your arse. It makes me research new and interesting things.

                  For example, International Emergency Economic Powers Act:

                  SEC. 202. (a) Any authority granted to the President by section
                  203 may be exercised to deal with any unusual and extraordinary
                  threat, which has its source in whole or substantial part outside the
                  United States, to the national security, foreign policy, or economy of
                  the United States, if the President declares a national emergency with
                  respect to such threat.
                  (b) The authorities granted to the President by section 203 may
                  only be exercised to deal with an unusual and extraordinary threat
                  with respect to which a national emergency has been declared for purposes
                  of this title and may not be exercised for any other purpose.
                  Any exercise of such authorities to deal with any new threat shall be
                  based on a new declaration of national emergency which must be with
                  respect to such threat.
                  GRANT OF AUTHORITIES
                  SEC. 203. (a) (1) At the times and to the extent specified in section
                  202, the President may, under such regulations as he may prescribe,
                  by means of instructions, licenses, or otherwise—
                  (A) investigate, regulate, or prohibit—
                  (i) any transactions in foreign exchange,
                  (ii) transfers of credit or payments between, by, through,
                  or to any banking institution, to the extent that such transfers
                  or payments involve any interest of any foreign country or
                  a national thereof,
                  (iii) the importing or exporting of currency or securities;
                  (B) investigate, regulate, direct and compel, nullify, void,
                  prevent or prohibit, any acquisition, holding, withholding, use,
                  transfer, withdrawal, transportation, importation or exportation
                  of, or dealing in, or exercising any right, power, or privilege with
                  respect to, or transactions involving, any property in which any
                  foreign country or a national thereof has any interest;
                  by any person, or with respect to any property, subject to the jurisdiction
                  of the United States.

                  Basically, the pres declares something to be an emergency, then declares the related sanctions.

            • Gabby

              Watchoo talkin bout dud4?
              Are the germans still selling arms to the saddies?

        • Gabby

          Residency surely dud4.

    • joe90 1.6

      MSB owns Javanka, so of course the orange turd is going to roll over and let him do WTF he wants to.

      One of the people MBS told about the discussion with Kushner was UAE Crown Prince Mohammed bin Zayed, according to a source who talks frequently to confidants of the Saudi and Emirati rulers. MBS bragged to the Emirati crown prince and others that Kushner was “in his pocket,” the source told The Intercept.



  2. cleangreen 2

    Is anyone really noticed that “climate change” is now upon us now????


    Is anyone feeling that climate change is really impacting on our lives fully now with massive rainfall amounts all over the country now and is flooding us all, and snow and hail is arriving in summer??????

    Good article is here to illustrate that climate change is real and now present, so where is Jacinda Ardern on this demise of our planet now” after she was ‘preaching to us

    “climate change is our generation’s ‘nuclear moment”!!!!!!!’

    “So why is she not reducing truck freight for more less carbon emission transport such as rail which emits 5 to 8 times less carbon emissions than trucks per km of tonne carried each km??????.

    Regional rail is not being increased under her “transformative” Government and sadly her government is one third into it’s “first term” so they had better get moving else they will be out in 2020.

    Chris Trotter on TDB remarked on https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/11/20/making-it-through/ what Christine Rose was quoted correctly saying what is now present’;

    “our chances of surviving global warming are slim indeed. And yet, if we put our faith in science, then Christine Rose’s bitter-sweet resignation; her “ecological grief” at the inevitable demise of so many living things”

    • DJ Ward 2.1

      Nope. Haven’t noticed anything out of the ordinary.

      So you propose building Rail to everybody’s front door?

      You should advocate for EV trucking. Rail is useful for large quantity, long distance enterprise but generally its geographically handicapped. Inevitably a truck is needed to deliver to the door.

      Make it a EV truck and you will need something else to complian about.

      • mauī 2.1.1

        New Zealand was built using rail and most towns and cities have some connection to it and depended on it. What country has it going to front doors? Are you actually serious?

        EV trucks? lol seriously? You know diesel engines are irreplaceable right in terms of power output?

        • DJ Ward

          EV can easily match the output of diesel plus it has a huge advantage in power at no speed. In short runs from Rail hubs and the near instant charging of Ali ion batteries its presently viable.

          • cleangreen

            DJ WARD

            You are so such an ignorant rant aren’t you?

            Who said rail to every door?

            Secondly you don’t know that trucks have up to 32 tyres now as tyres are made from very nasty monomers/ polymers and toxic chemicals like 1.3.butadiene and styrene, all are cancer causing that the EU is now banning fro use in cities and populated areas because of the toxic poisons Tyre dust is causing to humans.

            Go away we don’t need your rubbish, we have covered this stuff before so don’t waste our time here.


            Electric vehicles emit no NO2 but do produce small particle pollution from the wear on brake discs and tyres and by throwing up dust from roads. A recent European commission research paper found that about half of all particulate matter comes from these sources.


            Traffic related sources are a significant contributor of particulate matter, particularly in urban environments and
            major cities. Traffic related particles can be distinguished into: exhaust traffic related particles, which are emitted
            as a result of incomplete fuel combustion and lubricant volatilization during the combustion procedure, and nonexhaust
            traffic related particles, which are either generated from non-exhaust traffic related sources such as brake,
            tyre, clutch and road surface wear or already exist in the environment as deposited material and become
            resuspended due to traffic induced turbulence. It is estimated that exhaust and non-exhaust sources contribute
            almost equally to total traffic-related PM10 emissions. However, as exhaust emissions control become stricter,
            relative contributions of non-exhaust sources to traffic related emissions will increasingly become more significant.
            The aim of the present literature review study is to present the state-of-the-art of the different aspects regarding
            particulate emissions resulting from non-exhaust sources and particularly from brake and tyre wear. For this
            reason several different literature sources such as peer reviewed papers, research project reports, technical
            publications, as well as licentiate and doctoral theses were examined and the most significant findings in terms of
            importance, physicochemical characteristics, EFs and possible adverse health effects are discussed.

            • cleangreen

              DJ ward

              Just remember that rail has ‘steel wheels’ not any of those toxic black ‘plastic’ tyres that are poisoning our human health and environment.

              • DJ Ward

                Since you want cars and trucks banned your solution is returning to the horse and cart?

                You miss the point.

                EV vehicles reduce pollution significantly from what we presently have. People are not going to give up Moter vehicles. Next you will be complaining about push bikes with rubber tyres and brakes.

                The solution is not eradication and the reformation of society to suit your irrational idealism of paradise.

                It’s identifying pollution and finding engineering solutions that eliminate or neutralise those pollutants.

                Anybody would think I’ve got no green credentials based on the bullcrap I’m getting. I’ve done more in my life and achieved more in that regard to anybody on this site.

          • mauī

            Nope, nothing can match the power generated by burning fossil fuels that’s why diesel engines have been used in heavy transport for more than 100 years. Having thousands of electric vehicles ferrying stuff around is also completely unsustainable.

            • DJ Ward

              Absolute rubbish.
              Electric motors can deliver any power you design it to deliver.
              That’s not the reason it’s used at all.
              Extremely large mining machines are electric powered. Not diesel.
              Compared to electricity diesel is more expensive. It’s cheaper to generate electricity in high efficiency multi stage generators with diesel for EV use than in inefficient in vehicle engines by a factor of nearly 3:1.

              Mankind advanced so fast the EV vehicles couldn’t keep up with ICE vehicle developement. ICE vehicles are not tied to infastructure like EV is. EV was handicapped by battery developement stalling with lead acid batteries.

              Once the invention of Lithuim ion and graphine occured ICE vehicles in mainstream use will inevitably become redundant technology.

              Ali ion batteries, a secondary invention to Lithuim ion batteries have a theoretical storage by mass limit 250% greater than the Lithuim theoretical limit. This is due to Lithuim having 1 free electron vs Aluminium having 3 per atom.

              Profound change is going to occur in the near future.

              • Incognito

                Extremely large mining machines are electric powered. Not diesel.

                Some very large nuclear subs are propelled by electric motors. Not diesel.

              • mauī

                “Electric motors can deliver any power you design it to deliver.”

                No, the example you’ve given is mining trucks which travel at slow speeds and stop and start, more suitable for batteries. Electric is unfeasible for long haul and higher speeds – the core of the entire industry. Hence why electric truck and trailer units don’t seem to exist? Electric trucking will probably only fill niche roles like rubbish collection, mining, where they work.

                New electric trucks are about 3 times more expensive to buy than standard trucks, so that rules them out for a lot of businesses. But I take your point that running costs are cheaper.

                Lithium is a very limited resource, no idea how much production can be scaled up so we can replace our car and trucking fleet.

                • DJ Ward

                  Wrong. The giant diggers etc are electric, cable connected.
                  EV is feasible today for long haul and high speed.
                  EV can easily outperform ICE for speed, and acceleration, and torque.

                  Ali ion batteries, not Lithuim. Aluminium is abundant.
                  They can fully charge from flat in less than a minute. Faster than filling up with fuel.
                  One Verizon tested 750,000 full charges, full discharges in just over a second to charge and a second to discharge.

                  Presently it’s Lithuim but Aluminium batteries will surpass due to characteristics.

                  • mauī

                    Well you’ve thrown up a large digger and trucks running off coke cans as the only examples to back up your claims. An electrified trucking industry is just around the corner lol.

          • Graeme

            This sounds like the Mainfreight vision of the transport industry, which will end up looking rather like the good old NZR with the road limits. Only this will be the most efficient and profitable for the carrier.

            There might be an intermediate hybrid step, but battery and motor tech might leapfrog that.

            Evidently Mainfreight is very close to not buying any more pure diesel trucks, at least for the depot – customer part of the business

        • Molly

          My partner works in the transport industry, and his firm is looking to replace the fleet with EV over the next few years. There are trucks on the road in Europe with good range and tare. The lack of infrastructure here for refuelling means that the first vehicles they will import will have to be hybrids.

          • Macro

            Molly – if you look at my link above – you will see that for short haul trucks they are already here.
            Yes the problem in NZ for long haul trucks is that they would need massive batteries (and reducing their carrying capacity) to have sufficient range to be viable. Living in a semi-rural area I face the same problem with a car, and I find the optimum solution at the moment is a hybrid. An EV is planned for town use with the hybrid for the necessary task of a 200 km drive every 2 – 3 weeks. A Leaf, with a range of around 240 km, is just not practical. (No fast charger where I have to drive to). 🙁

    • Adrian 2.2

      You mean just like a normal spring, Marlborough has been having November snowfalls and frosts since before time began. They are even called ” A Doctor Muller frost ” after the holder and chronicler of a big sheep station in the 1800s, incidently he was the husband of Mary Ann Muller the great international suffragist writer and phampleteer.
      Nothing new here.

    • KJT 2.3

      Shipping. 34 times less.

      • greywarshark 2.3.1

        Barges – is that the idea? Or won’t they stand up to the high seas.

        • KJT

          Ships. Small for Auckland Whangarei, or Gisbourne Napier. Larger for N Island, S Island.
          And keep employment, taxes and profit in New Zealand, by requiring New Zealand flag.

  3. Nick 3

    Why are you surprised Cinny? Trump gonna Trump on everything, the topic is irrelevant. Money, power and himself, full stop.

  4. Cinny 4

    Money power and himself…… I’m going to add hypocrisy to that list.

    Sad thing is the average American know’s little or nada about what is going on Yemen.

    • garibaldi 4.1

      Cinny the Americans traditionally learn geography when they invade a country. Now that the cowardly bastards are doing it by drones the general population miss out on their geography lesson.

  5. Dennis Frank 5

    “The leader of a media watchdog is urging Pacific leaders to “speak out” over Chinese attacks on the press. At the APEC summit in Papua New Guinea, only journalists from China’s state-run agencies were allowed to attend Chinese President Xi Jinping’s meeting with Pacific leaders.” https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/11/china-dragging-pacific-back-to-colonial-days-expert.html

    “Pacific Freedom Forum chair Monica Miller says the situation is “appalling” and a “slap in the face” to journalists. “China is trying to exercise what it is allowed to do back in its own backyard here in our part of the world, where we have open and free media,” she says. “It seems as if we are going back to the colonial days and we have China trying to muscle the press.”

    “Pita Ligaiula, a journalist with the Pacific Island News Association based in Fiji, said Chinese influence was among the big issues affecting the region – and it was important to be able to inform the public about its intentions.”

    Money talks. Pacific islands are keen to listen to it. China says, you can, on our terms. Pacific islands say okay then, let’s do this. Pacific media have marginal relevance. Pacific governments will take the money on offer, tell their media they can comment from their margins all they like, they don’t need to be present at meetings. Neocolonialism. Offending the powers that be is never a good idea…

  6. cleangreen 6

    Jacinda now read what your previous Ministers actually promised the Gisborne People when in 2016 you was in opposition.

    In 2016 Labour/NZ First promised to fix Gisborne rail.

    “Leaders of two political parties — including the Government’s coalition partner — along with Labour’s shadow transport minister will be in Gisborne next week to speak about the benefits to East Coast Maori of reopening the Gisborne to Wairoa railway line.
    New Zealand First leader Winston Peters, Maori Party co-leader Marama Fox and Labour Party transport spokeswoman Sue Moroney will address a rail forum to discuss progress towards the repair and reopening of the Gisborne-Wairoa section of the line.
    Forum co-organiser Ken Crispin said supporters are encouraged by positive statements from KiwiRail’s annual meeting last week.
    “It was reported that freight carried by rail in this last financial year represented a reduced heavy vehicle impact of 1.1 million road trips, with a reduced fuel input of 77 million litres. This has to be good for the economy as well as for the environment”, he said.
    Rail Action Group chairwoman Mary Manuel said the action group was furthering the campaign to reopen the line “on behalf of our iwi and the generations to come”.
    The forum will be on Monday at Te Tini o Porou Conference Centre, Kaiti from 9am to 5pm.”


    ECONOMIC growth on the East Coast is being constrained by its poor infrastructure and lack of strategy from central Government, say members of Labour’s environment and infrastructure caucus committee.
    The committee was in Gisborne yesterday for meetings with Eastland Port, Gisborne District Council’s regional transport committee, Wi Pere Trust and LeaderBrand.
    “We are hearing from people that the region is being forgotten by the government, left out and issues not being addressed,” said Labour transport spokesperson Sue Moroney.
    “Transport is a major issue in Tairawhiti, and it is going to become an even greater issue, because of a ‘good problem’, an increase in export opportunity.
    “The volume of logs is expected to double, but there are concerns about how this volume of freight will impact on the way people live, and maintenance costs for roads.”
    She reiterated Labour’s support for reinstating the rail line saying although they have not announced their new transport policy it was their policy at the last election and she sees “no reason to change that”.
    “In fact the business case for it is building. The overwhelming view is supporting a long-term vision of what regional economic development could take place if there is the infrastructure to support it.
    “If you were able to work anywhere and continue to do what you love doing, why wouldn’t you choose Gisborne.”
    In line with this Labour would help businesses add value to products.


    Again in the Gisborne Herald in August 2016 again both Labour and Green Party again also promised to re-instate Gisborne rail.

    Quote – “Ms Moroney added that a policy was needed that ensured rail, road and sea were all used when fit-for-purpose and reinstating the Gisborne line was a “no-brainer”.
    “NZ is pretty damn perfect for rail, yet other countries use rail to much better effect than we do. We move a lot of big stuff, often.”
    However, the National Government was “ideologically opposed” to rail and their “complete and utter bias” towards road haulage in particular defied facts, information and practicalities.
    She encouraged Gisborne’s vociferous rail lobby to “keep fighting” for rail.
    “I just want to congratulate you on a fantastic campaign that is run here from Gisborne and Napier about getting that important railway re-established again. Keep fighting that fight, I know sometimes it seems like no one is listening but it is clear what the problem is — you simply have the wrong government in place to make it a reality.
    “It’s going to feel like banging your head against a brick wall but it’s incredibly important that people don’t lose sight.”
    Ms Moroney said it was not an issue that should be left to local government; it was a central government issue.
    Labour’s last election manifesto had included the reinstatement of the line, and there was no reason why that would change.

    So now Jacinda; – in Gisborne and HB we are waiting for your Government to honour your promises made to re-instate the Gisborne to Napier rail service now please. You are looking after other pacific counties “infrastructure, so now we want you to look after our county too please.

    • Gabby 6.1

      Get away from the coast cleany, it’s a goneburger. It’s going under. Trains don’t work under water. Head for the hills cleany.

      • cleangreen 6.1.1


        We have the Government plans for placing the rail systems in areas that are secure from coastal flooding, and they were set up by Julius Vogel in 1880.

        So they knew then it was foolish if we would be placing roads and rail near any beach areas, and we need to plan for this so you are right again 100%

        The roads are to close to beaches now and will suffer badly too.

        • DJ Ward

          Are you aware that sea rise is measured.
          Are you aware that measured sea rise is very small.

          In theory it could be very large wiping out cities like Napier, parts of South Auckland.

          Are you aware that tectonic plate movement causes rises and drops in altitude faster than the measured change by a profound amount. Generally not noticed until large earthquakes. Julia’s Vogels generation witnessed the Wellington event.
          The risk of global warming sea level rise is real but the world won’t end even if the worst case occured. Surprisingly it will continue to orbit the sun.

          The sea didn’t exist once, it was all frozen.
          Not long ago the sea was 100m lower than today.
          Life was also just as prolific when temperatures were hotter, CO2 was higher, the day was shorter, and had a significantly more dense atmosphere.
          73,000 years ago earths temperature dropped dramatically. The average sea temperature dropped by 2 degrees for 1,000 years. The result of a super volcano.
          All the animals alive today including us are descendants of those events.

          Climate change needs to be taken seriously, with realism.
          Paranoia needs good medication.

  7. Observer Tokoroa 7

    Clean Air – Clean Water

    Unfortunately we New Zealanders have no idea that we need clean air – and clean water.

    Simon Bridges is a thorough devotee of Pollution. As a Minister he banned visual protest against the Oil Industry and laid severe legal punishments on any persons who tried to bring attention to the critical dangers of Oil.

    Kiwis simply do not know that Oil, processed as Diesel and Petroleum is highly Carcinogenic. Your Truck and your Car is causing deadly cancer – night and day.

    Simon Bridges does not tell you that. Labour does – and gets trolled for it endlessly by National and their ignorant caucus and Corporate idiots. As such, National is a prime purveyor of Pollution.

    In the meantime, our Farmers whether Corporate or Family, are permitted to shunt millions of tons of Cow Shit and Lamb Shit into all our Rivers And streams. Simon Bridges pretends not to know this.

    National 24 hrs a day, willingly Pollutes our water. You have to wonder why people don’t just rub the National noses into their own Shit.

  8. Sam C 8


    It looks like Hagar and Stephenson are about to be shown up for the serial, brazen bullshitters that they really are.

    • Morrissey 8.1

      It looks like Hagar [sic] and Stephenson are about to be shown up for the serial, brazen bullshitters that they really are.

      Really? When has either Hager or Stephenson been proved wrong on any of their investigations into the activities of the New Zealand “Defence” Forces in Afghanistan?

      And the NZ “Defence” Force is an organization that is credible is it? Then why has that coward Lt. Gen. Tim Keating refused to front up to Paula Penfold?


      • Sam C 8.1.1

        Looks like they’re about to be proved wrong. 105 times.

        • Morrissey

          As I suspected, you’re not serious.

          • Sam C

            Didn’t you read the link? I am serious. Hager even admits in the article that “some of them are probably true” in ref the 105 errors.

            Hardly the work of a credible investigative journalist. What will you say when Palmer and Arnold dispel Hager’s theories? That they’re in on it too?

            • Morrissey

              Palmer? Geoffrey Palmer?

              If you believe a word that old lapdog says then you are even more of a fool than you appear so far.

            • AB

              Hager will be right. Every historical work contains errors, plus things that might be errors. In the latter case, there is not enough evidence to be certain either way.
              All that matters is whether these errors are peripheral/incidental, or central enough to undermine the main thesis.
              If you don’t know this you are a fool. If you do know it, but are pretending not to, you’re a propagandist.

              • Anne

                I understand that the majority of the so-called “errors” quoted by the Defence Force revolve around the one relatively minor mistake that Hager and Stephenson admitted to a long time ago. I refer to the incorrect coordinates in the book re-the position of the village that was invaded. In other words, they inadvertently placed it on a small hill not far from the actual hill. It transpired the error was caused by a faulty translation.

                If that’s all the DF can come up with, I don’t fancy their chances of success. Unless of course the hearing turns out to be an establishment whitewash, which is certainly not beyond the realms of possibility.

                • Morrissey

                  Seeing one of the two people at the “hearing” is Geoffrey Palmer, that creature of Alvaro Uribe, an establishment whitewash is guaranteed.



                • crashcart

                  My understanding is that NZDF have video evidence recorded from the helicopters of all three raids. They sounds very confident that it backs their version of events.

                  Also they seem very certain about the number of shots fired by NZDF personnel. There will be documentation on this as every round is tracked and every time a weapon is discharged it is recorded.

                  Whilst I wouldn’t expect people to just take the word of the NZDF I would hope that they wouldn’t undermine the findings of the enquiry before it is even conducted. That is a very Trump thing to do.

                  • Anne

                    In the mid to late 1960s, I spent four and a bit years working for the old AKTV2 as an audio technician. I’m not saying it has happened in this instance (we will never know) but I know how simple it is to edit a video in such a way as to present a different picture of an event than actually occurred. They did it to me once at a party. The result was hilarious if rather embarrassing.

                    Given today’s advanced technical knowledge I doubt anyone would be able to detect if such a scenario existed, with the exception of those who were there. And that is where the bulk of Stephenson’s and Hager’s information came from – soldiers who were physically there and saw what happened.

                    I have also worked on a Defence Force base as a civilian, and whilst I had no quarrel with the rank and file who were generally a good bunch of people, I would not have always said the same about some of the D.F. brass.

                    • Sam C

                      Aha – they’ve doctored the video! This in spite of you not having seen it Anne. Of course they have!

                      And Palmer is a corrupt puppet of the Establishment! Of course he is!

                      And, and and…

                      I’m having trouble keeping up.

                    • Anne

                      Liar. Never said a word against Palmer in my life. If you represent the “Establishment” then God help New Zealand.

                    • lprent []

                      Yeah.Sam C appeals to have an intelligence issue. He is a bit short of it.

                      Thick as a plank in my expert troll sniffing opinion.

                    • Crashcart

                      Yes video can be edited. This is not video owned or controlled by the NZDF. It is US military video. It would also not be the only evidence I would rely on. As I said simple things like rounds expended is closely tracked. There will be actual documentation from the day that will record how many rounds were issued and how many were returned. The NZDF have literally thousands of pieces of evidence. I am not saying they will all be relevant but they will build a picture.

                      There is a reason why eye witness testimony is considered one of the weakest forms of evidence. It is distorted over time. Especially when the witnessing happened in a high stress situation such as combat. I am not dismissing the eye witness testimony as it is an important part of building the picture. It is not however the most defining or most robust form of evidence. All evidence needs to be weighed and considered.

                      This is what the enquiry should do. The way that Morrisey has been attacking the validity of the enquiry before it has even started is what concerns me. I am pretty sure that is what Sam C is referring to with his comment about accusations of Palmer being a corrupt puppet.

            • SaveNZ

              Modern litigation and distraction used successfully by tobacco and climate change deniers. You distract the entire argument around some semantic or little point rather than the overwhelming evidence against the guilty party.

    • Chris T 8.2

      Always found it a bit odd that people take Nicky Hager seriously.

      • Morrissey 8.2.1


        You should read his books. At least one of them, anyway.

        What credentials do you have to make such a criticism of Nicky Hager?

        • Michelle

          Well they raided his home so someone took him seriously and we paid for the cops balls up another one of many over the years

          • Morrissey

            It wasn’t a “balls up”, it was systematic harassment and intimidation. They were perfectly aware it was illegal, but they went on with it anyway.

        • cleangreen


          Chris cant read that’s why he wants to be in “politics” as they preach ‘fiction’

      • AB 8.2.2

        We take him seriously because the powerful are so desperate to smear him.
        You don’t take him seriously because you want to keep your authoritarian fantasies intact.

      • Molly 8.2.3

        As Morrissey says, read his books. Randomly check his sources – and he provides them all at the back of his books. If you have the chance to listen to him in person, watch how carefully he chooses his words, and how he refuses to exaggerate, even when the interviewer is persistent in prompting.

        Then perhaps you will get some idea of why people take him seriously.

        • Anne

          Yes, I can vouch for that.

          I have been to a couple of functions where he was the guest speaker. He is strictly fair in his presentations. If a particular matter does not necessarily equate to any wrong doing on the part of whichever part of the establishment he is talking about (in this case the Defence Force) he will go to extraordinary lengths to ensure the audience recognises as much.

      • Gabby 8.2.4

        He’s got a bit of money christy. Surely you take that seriously.

      • SaveNZ 8.2.5

        I take him more seriously that the establishment fear him so much that they have to make illegal cases agains him and steal his computers.

        Searching questions after Hager apology

      • greywarshark 8.2.6

        You think a lot of odd things too, Chris T, so perhaps you are in a regular confused state.

        • cleangreen

          Yes to that greywarshark. 100% Chris T is always confused like all his mates in National Party are.

    • Gabby 8.3

      Are the kids alive and well sammie?

    • greywarshark 8.4


  9. Morrissey 9

    Free Speech continues to come under grave attack in Britain


  10. SaveNZ 10

    “The end of London’s ‘mega mansions’

    Super-sized “mega homes” are to be banned in central London as Westminster City Council draws up new plans to ensure “real people” can buy properties.

    The council, which oversees some of London’s most expensive postcodes including Mayfair, Knightsbridge and Belgravia, said it will restrict new builds over 150 square meters (1,615 sq ft), in order to preserve homes for “real people” instead of oligarchs and members of the global elite.

    Westminster council argued that 150 square meters is “generous”, as it is 50 per cent larger than the average family home in the area.”


    Pity NZ did not implement something similar in the unitary plan. Yeah, nah, that’s right unitary plan was for the super rich to shaft the rest of Auckland with the woke lefties braying approval because they couldn’t join the dots and still thing ‘trickle down’ is a thing too.

  11. DJ Ward 11

    Cinny asked a question yesterday, in regards to the abortion, women lying about being on the pill issue, along the lines of, go on prove it. So thank you Cinny. Your statement is far better than the victim blaming and minimise approach of others.

    Others were equally dismissive of the argument, or that lying about being on the pill is a crime.

    I suggest people read this. With both eyes please.


    • McFlock 11.1


      “We conclude that where a complainant has chosen not to become pregnant, deceptions that deprive her of the benefit of that choice by making her pregnant, or exposing her to an increased risk of becoming pregnant by removing effective birth control, may constitute a sufficiently serious deprivation for the purposes of fraud vitiating consent,” the justices wrote.

      Now you just need to demonstrate that getting pregnant is substantively the same as being made pregnant without consent.

      • DJ Ward 11.1.1

        “We conclude that where a complainant has chosen not to become pregnant, deceptions that deprive him of the benefit of that choice by making her pregnant, or exposing him to an increased risk of her becoming pregnant by removing effective birth control, may constitute a sufficiently serious deprivation for the purposes of fraud vitiating consent,” the justices wrote.

        There fixed it for you.

        • McFlock

          Ah. So if you rewrite the judges’ decision to suit your position, it says what you want it to say.

          • DJ Ward

            No. It says the same thing. The gender has changed. The judges comment has not changed.

            You are implying a law only applies to men, women are exempt. Theres a word for people that think like that.

            Women are free to abuse men. Which is current policy in pretty much every legal domain.

            Not that you care McFlock but this subject is actually ultimately about children.

            The more consential conception is the better the outcomes for children. Outcomes for planed, consential pregnancies are far better than outcomes for unwanted children.

            • McFlock

              No, I’m implying nothing.

              I’m explicitly stating that there is a fundamental difference between making someone else get pregnant and making yourself get pregnant.

              That difference might be enough to make your claims about “abuse” legally arguable. Please provide a link to a case where a woman has been convicted of sexual assault for getting pregnant.

              • DJ Ward

                You never will have such a case. Prosecutions for any female on male sex crime is vertualy non existent. Police laugh at males who make historic sex abuse cliams with female offenders. Police also arrest males who make this particular sex abuse cliam of non consential conception because domestic violence at relationship breakdown is common. So is male suicide. This was first highlighted in the midwife initiated teenage father study decades ago. The slaughter of our boys continues.

                Women don’t even get prosecuted for having sex with drunk males when they want to get pregnant without the males consent.

                As you are aware men get sent to prison for having sex with drunk females. Despite thousands of events the investigation rate is 0%.

                I’m not interested in prosecuting women.
                That’s a fear in your mind (don’t know why).
                I asked about what is a human rights violation. The crown provides multiple opt out options for unwanted pregnancy for women. Men have no options even when technically sex abuse victims.

                The IRD makes 15 year old boys pay child support. Was it legal to have sex with them?

                Legalise the male pill!

                • Incognito

                  Legalise the male pill!

                  FFS [pun intended]. Tie a knot in it or give it an ice-bath. You know, it’s mind over …. never mind.

                • McFlock

                  I asked about what is a human rights violation.

                  So take it up with the Human rights Commissioner.

                  The crown provides multiple opt out options for unwanted pregnancy for women. Men have no options even when technically sex abuse victims.

                  “Technically” show me where, in NZ law, that is the case. With links.

                  Legalise the male pill!

                  Please link to the male pill that you believe is illegal in NZ even though it has been thoroughly tested and is completely safe and almost 100% effective.

                  That having been said, yes, there is an issue in recognising and prosecuting sexual assault against males. I’m just not sure that your hypothetical case of women lying about being on the pill would count. It might, if one squinted a bit when interpreting the words “nature or quality”. But I’ve argued your corner for you more than you have.

    • Cinny 11.2

      That example is a four year old story from Canada, JS, but fair enough it is an example.

      As I said before one can get pregnant on the pill, doesn’t make them a liar.

      Does anyone warn the teens that drunk sex is awkward and not satisfying. Breathe in the boozy breath mhmmm I want that beer coated tongue in my mouth, why isn’t your cock working, whoops, sorry I just passed out for a bit, ewwww don’t spew up there, ffs that’s my wardrobe not a urinal.

      Re the male pill, honestly am not sure I could trust a man to take it regularly.

      Being pregnant and giving birth is no picnic, neither is an abortion or a miscarriage, leaving those decisions up to a man’s reliability on taking a pill…. yeah nah.

      But in saying that, why do men so easily trust a women when she say’s she’s on the pill? Maybe because either way there is no possibility the man will get pregnant, so no worries mate, it’s all on her.

      A word of advice, djward, you come across as a woman hater, might not be your intention, but the subjects you raise, sheez.

      Either that or you are flat out trolling. Maybe it’s both.

      I do read kb, have never commented there, the language, abuse, name calling, bullying is freaking vile as. As well the moderation is pathetic. But I noticed you are a regular visitor. JS.

  12. SaveNZ 12

    Should migrants who might have worked overseas for significant periods of time qualify for NZ super when they also have overseas super or private pensions that they are entitled too?

    Likewise people born overseas who somehow live the high life but appear to have no income generated here to justify that lifestyle but also qualify for super having not worked in NZ much, or paid taxes here only a fraction of their life.

    It does not seem fair that Kiwis who live and work in NZ most of their lives get less than those who live in other countries and thus can get 2 pensions or just never lived here at all most of their lives and somehow get a pension and free health care and rest home care that NZ taxpayers pay for .

    I don’t think the pension should be means tested but if you were born overseas and have contributed little in your working life into NZ you should not qualify for a NZ pension at all nor free health care nor free rest home care.

    Private insurance should be paying for those who are born overseas or who spend most of their working life out of NZ apart from refugees. so that it is fairer to people who choose to live here on often lower wages who then somehow are expected to pay for the world’s wealthy retirees who apparently come just come here and get residency after 11 days or through marrying someone after a few weeks after meeting them online.


    • bwaghorn 12.1

      Maybe part of the residency application should include the handling over of their pension to nz super

      • SaveNZ 12.1.1

        Yes bwaghorn that is a start. And I’m not against people who can support themselves and have the morality to retire here. But there needs to be more protection to Kiwis who live and work here not to support the world’s (often wealthy) retirees and a plan if they renege on paying for their own care and how they need to guarantee their care up front before being allowed to come here in case something goes wrong once they come here and NZ taxpayers end up having to support them.

        Look at then estimated costs of retirement or aged care…

        Rest home care costs at least $1000 p/w
        Plus surgical care, hip replacements, heart surgery, eye surgery, lets say $10k per year which I think is around the cost of private cover for elderly people.
        Prescriptions $40 p/w
        Free travel with Gold card $40 p/w
        Winter payment $450 – $750
        Pension $24k per annum single or $15,600 if you are in a rest home.

        It seem very strange looking at the costs just to keep one retired person here in NZ that we are allowing so many migrants to come here to retire who can then “lose’ their money somehow or even keep it, and NZ ends up paying significant amounts for their care and even a pension somehow.

        Then there are the recent migrant prison criminals at $100,000 per annum aka Czech Smuggler.

        We are paying for this by government borrowing and assets sell offs or decreased services or low wages for teachers or doctors else where.

        NZ has to get it’s shit in order, because our government policy is making a mockery of the future of NZ in the next decade when there will be so many liabilities that our government should have prevented NOW by policy that is fair and makes sense.

  13. greywarshark 13

    Good news on how we are trying to deal with plastics (soft type).

    business environment
    Local processing of soft plastic starts
    From Nine To Noon, 9:38 am today
    9.05 mins

    The soft plastic recycling scheme, run by the Packaging Forum, has been operating since 2015 and now covers about 70 percent of the country.
    Photo: Facebook / Love NZ Soft Plastics Recycling

    For the first time, soft plastic collected for recycling is being processed in New Zealand, and turned into fence posts and ducting for cables.

    Earlier this year, soft plastic such as bread bags, chip packets and confectionery wrappers was being stockpiled here, as the Australian plant which had been contracted to recycle it, refused to take any more.

    Lyn Mayes from the Soft Plastic Recycling Scheme, run by the Packaging Forum, says there are now local processors. She says the packaging industry is trying to find alternatives to plastic.

    • WeTheBleeple 13.1

      That is good news. With viable products this type of industry might reach a point where it’s feasible to start ‘tapping’ the Pacific gyre.

      I’m dubious of any plastics left out in the sun however, like fence posts.

      What we need now is someone imaginative to come up with things they can make.

      Engineers – to your stations!

      • greywarshark 13.1.1

        Hey wood deteriorates too. Certainly as a short term measure to deal with a present problem plastic fence posts would be appropriate especially for town use where they would give a nice clean grey or white appearance for a good many years.

        • WeTheBleeple

          Wood biodegrades. Plastic breaks down to enter the food chain. It would be a shame to remove plastics from the ocean only to redistribute them over land.

          Just a wee touch of imagination, they’ll do just fine. Or is it all simply more green washing where Australia forced our hand to participate?

          Ducting is typically used beneath floors and above ceilings. These are places out of sunlight in which plastics might last indefinitely. A suitable product. There are many underground applications for which such materials might be suited. It is lightweight, waterproof, insulative and persistent.

      • greywarshark 13.1.2

        Plastic –

        Jeremy Irons voices a mockumentary on the journey of a plastic bag to its home in the sea.

    • marty mars 13.2

      I can’t wait until we turn our back on plastic and go back to the old ways of doing stuff. Recycling plastic is like asking for ice cubes for your martini on the titanic imo.

      • mauī 13.2.1

        Yep, what was wrong with paper bags! I now don’t use any bag at all – I carry items out of the supermarket in my arms in protest.

        • greywarshark

          I hang my bags off my ears. Use what you’ve got I say.

        • joe90

          Yep, what was wrong with paper bags!

          Been thinking about paper v plastic bags, so I asked google.



          • Andre

            Those two pieces are pretty light on my biggest objection to plastic bags (and plastics in general) – the littering and harm to wildlife aspects. It really hit home for me watching a sea turtle munching a jellyfish, then start in on a plastic grocery bag floating past. And seeing exposed coral covered so thick in bags and other plastic caught on it that you could barely see it was coral underneath.

            But yeah, the extra resource usage to make paper packaging complicates the issue quite a bit. In the end though, the paper vs plastic argument obscures the bigger problem – why so fkn much packaging to begin with?

            • Macro

              Totally agree
              As for the use of paper bags – like my two (reused many times) plastic bags I carry in my hessian carry bag, I have several paper bags for reuse as well.
              My butcher understands my objection to plastic trays and bags, and is happy for me to reuse the tinfoil containers with lids which I bring to carry my purchases home.

      • cleangreen 13.2.2

        Yep Martymars, 100%

        I was astonished yesterday when someone turned up with a plastic bubble of six muffins from Pac’n’save what a overuse of plastic that was.

        Why cant they place them in a paper bag?????

        Pac ‘n’ save need to get real here too!!!!!!

        We also have all our liquids in plastic now and even most medicines too!!!

        Haven’t the medical or the helpless NZ Health Department heard of the dangers of keeping food stuffs inside plastics???? BPA hazards; -look that up

        In August, Statistics Canada reported that measurable levels of BPA were found in the urine of 91 per cent of Canadians aged six to 79.

        “Health Canada considers that sufficient evidence relating to human health has been presented to justify the conclusion that bisphenol A is harmful to human life and should be added to Schedule 1 of [the Canadian Environmental Protection Act],” the federal government reported in the Canada Gazette.

        I trust Canadian authorities more than corporate US companies.

        • Puckish Rogue

          Thats what bugs me, plastic bags are useful, very useful. I won’t go into all the uses a plastic bag has because there are many and I’m sure others have their own uses for them.

          So Countdown does the virtue signalling thing and stops using plastic bags (which is a pain in the butt) but yet still has has so much plastic packaging that can’t really be used for anything, especially around fruit and vegetables. I mean why not look at using biodegradable bags instead

          • ianmac

            My kiwifruit and bananas tomatoes and potatoes have their own baggage, so guess how they get to my home.

          • cleangreen


            Well the science was already done on “bio-degradable bags” and say that the remains of the bags when they shed into little pieces then get digested by other forms of life in our food chain and poison our food through the transfer of the BPA components in the plastic remains, so we get poisoned this way sadly so they say don’t rely on bio-degradable plastic bags.

          • marty mars

            A plastic bag doesn’t have many uses – it holds stuff – a wide variety of stuff and that is it. Other uses are just contrived.

          • Ed

            Don’t buy their packaged food wherever possible.
            Use farmers markets and fruit and vegetable shops.
            Take your own bags.

  14. SaveNZ 14

    ATEED who is a COO funded by RATEPAYERS is a scrooge.

    Auckland Santa Parade funding drops in favour of Pride Parade, Diwali


    • greywarshark 14.1

      Huh gay pride don’t have as many kids as everyday people do so they don’t really have a personal drive of making a future for their children, and getting them socialised and mixing and enjoying with the community. For the gays It’s more like being a flock of male peacocks admiring each other, and the same with females who also want to enjoy the colour and drama of the male feathers. But it isn’t aimed at children.

      And Diwali can have their own day, and Chinese can have their New Year Dragon and fireworks. That just shows how multi-ethnic and open we are, and it is all beautiful and colourful. And Maori have Matariki; we have to be able to celebrate things we hold as important. But the stylish young things who are up with the play and so sophisticated are looking at creating events for visitors and overseas tourists and not focussed on the citizens – we’re still out there you know.

      We love our Santa Parades and the people who don’t like Christmas being celebrated and commercialised are nit pickers and full of cold pious budgetary efficiency. And those who object to Christmas having Christian background can just enjoy the enjoyment of others, the colour, the costumes, the decorations, the bands, the fun which is Christmas for most children and the major group of adults.

  15. UncookedSelachimorpha 15

    A good suggestion from Tim Hazledine – use Kiwibank to rein in the extreme profits extracted by the four main commercial banks:


  16. ianmac 16

    Mike Joy has a simple solution to a complex problem aided by Norightturn.
    Could it be that simple??? Reckon yes!


    • JC 16.1

      “It strikes me with great clarity that if you look at the problems in isolation they each seem intractable; but when you grasp that there could be one single solution, then suddenly there is a glimpse of light at the end of the tunnel.”


      Solving New Zealand’s Freshwater Crisis

      Mike Joy (ed)

    • Andre 16.2

      As NRT notes, a less intensive mode of farming still appears to be profitable. Of my farming acquaintances, most that have tried intensive and not-so-intensive seem to have settled on the not-so-intensive model. It seems more resilient, and the up-and-down swings in the returns aren’t as dramatic. To be sure, a good year doesn’t peak quite as high, but then a bad year doesn’t bite nearly as hard, and over the long term the average return seems a bit better. With a lot less stress, although probably not any less work.

      • Macro 16.2.1

        Not only is there less effluent being discharged and polluting waterways and damaging soils but a return to a more natural grazing cycle can have substantial benefits wrt carbon sequestration as well as increased animal health.

        “The Potential of Restorative Grazing to Mitigate Global Warming by Increasing Carbon Capture on Grasslands”

        Summary: This white paper reviews the literature on soil organic carbon losses and potential gains through regenerative management. It finds that most literature is limited to areas considered in “agriculture” and that rangelands may be largely under represented both in terms of of losses and drawdown potential. It argues that with regenerative rangeland practices, such as Holistic Planned Grazing, the total capture of atmospheric carbon may be much higher than previously considered. An upward estimate of 88 to 210 gigatons (billions of tons) of carbon (88-210 GtC) representing a total drawdown of 25 to 60 tons per hectare on 3500 million hectares of grasslands worldwide is postulated as achievable through proper rangeland/grassland management. This represents a CO2 reduction equivalency of 41 to 99 ppm, enough to return us to the 350 ppm level mandated by the Paris Climate Accords.

        Itzkan, Seth. 2014. Upside Drawdown – The Potential of Restorative Grazing to Mitigate Global Warming by Increasing Carbon Capture on Grasslands. Draft for comment v0.9.5. Somerville, Massachusetts: Planet-TECH Associates.

        • WeTheBleeple

          Thank you.

          Bill, you rubbished me when I stated soil carbon could make a significant difference, and then LPrent joined in for a good ol’ group kicking in which you both laughed at me and called me all kinds of stupid and ill informed.

          I got so pissed off I banned myself for months.


          • Robert Guyton

            I’m a supporter of the idea that the soil is the best repository for carbon that’s presently drifting about the atmosphere. There are clever combinations of plants and methods that can do this very quickly, with the farmers doing the biz – they can become, I reckon, the New Heroes who Save the Planet, but whether they do or not, is yet to be seen. Progress to date has been glacial, but that doesn’t mean it won’t happen. It could. In my view.

            • Macro

              A more expansive explanation of the research and science behind the above abstract is given here:


              Even small percentage increases in soil carbon worldwide can dramatically reduce atmospheric CO2 concentrations.

              Entering this conversation is the practice of Holistic Planned Grazing (HPG), in which livestock are herded in a fashion that replicates the beneficial grazing, trampling, dunging, and nutrient recycling dynamics with which wild herding ruminants coevolved with perennial grassland plants and carbon-rich soils (Savory & Butterfield, 1999). Decades of anecdotal evidence and recent studies suggest this practice has great promise, both for ecological functioning, including plant growth and hydrology, and for increasing soil organic carbon (SOC) (Dagget, 2005; Earl & Jones, 1996; Gill, 2009; Howell, 2009; Norton, 1998; Stinner, Stinner, & Martsolf, 1997; Teague et al., 2011; K. T. Weber & Gokhale, 2011). For example, Teague (2011) showed that land managed under a restorative grazing regimen (multi-paddock with ecological goals) had a far higher SOC value than land on a similar site managed with traditional (heavy continuous) grazing. When factoring across all soil profile depths measured, this added carbon equated to a 30 t C/ha. Additionally, Weber (2011) showed that land under a restorative grazing regimen (simulated Holistic Planned Grazing, SHGP), had significantly improved water holding capacity, measured as percent volumetric-water content, %VWC, when compared with traditionally grazed lands. Hydrological functioning is correlated with soil carbon (Feger & Hawtree, 2013; Franzluebbers, 2002).

    • DJ Ward 16.3

      Farmers don’t put fertilisers on with the intent of loosing money. What a stupid thing to say. This guy is clearly still running with concepts of what’s happening from 20 years ago. Time for Mike Joy to at least learn what he is talking about.

      • Robert Guyton 16.3.1

        DJ Ward – your commenting manner is … unsophisticated, in a not-very-admirable way – just sayin’
        Mike Joy, otoh, expresses himself with clarity and honesty. He’s very well researched and dedicated to his topic. Let’s have a look at what he says:
        “The problems faced by New Zealand’s environment, particularly freshwaters and soils are wicked, complex and intertwined. After struggling with these issues for a half a lifetime, it strikes me with great clarity that if you look at each in isolation they seem intractable; but when you grasp that there could be one single solution that addresses them all, then suddenly there is a glimpse of light at the end of the tunnel.

        Take, for example, a subset of the many environmental issues facing New Zealand, such as bacterial and pathogen contamination of water and soil, excess nutrients in waters, excess sediment in waterways, freshwater habitat loss, groundwater contaminated with pesticides and nutrients, and the huge loss of the mauri of waterways. Any of these issues appear impossibly hard and/or expensive if evaluated in isolation for costs, or for the difficulty or value of resolution.

        But if there was one action available that substantially addressed all of the issues listed above, then the decision would be simple – take that action. When multiple gains can be made for the cost of a single action, and the combined gains far outweigh the single cost of that one action, the next move is obvious. When it comes to the freshwater crisis, a single solution does exist – simply, reducing farming intensity: less cows.”

        • DJ Ward

          Yes I made a mistake in my comment. I responded to the repost comment. Not Mike Joys comment.

          ” It also looks to be profitable for farmers, because they don’t have to waste money on fertiliser to support overstocking.”

          Which is clearly irrational.

          I however don’t agree with Mike Joys comment for a number of reasons. As pointed out.

  17. WeTheBleeple 17

    A few years back I had a plumbing issue and the contractors cleaned up after themselves with a bulldozer blade. They left me with podzol looking soil, white chalk and clay. Two years later that strip is topsoil again, through the use of cover crops and mulch.

    The large April storm revealed heart rot fungi in a big tree here which then had to come down. The mulch and cuttings of this tree have become surrounds for many more trees and garden beds, and mulch to support them.

    The privet the council has failed to kill for decades is my bitch. I kill this stuff by chainsaw then hand. This becomes fuel wood, landscaping materials, poles, mulch, compost and hugelkultur. All manner of trees get planted on the privets graves.

    The problems are the solutions. And often they’re f’n simple. But turning round agriculture isn’t simple. The farmers here are still convinced the world will go into starvation mode if they wean themselves off urea. Meanwhile the waterways are full of excess. But they all go on and on about their sparing use of these products, how they’ve ‘changed’.

    Regenerative agriculture is absolutely the way to go. Mind your step for the vegans though.

    • Robert Guyton 17.1

      And so, WTB, have you read Daniel Quinn’s “Ishmael”?

      • WeTheBleeple 17.1.1

        Not read that book either. I’m gonna start asking if you’ve read the hardcore textbooks i have soon to restore my ‘well read’ ego. Just read a brief synopsis it looks good. I’ve thought the notion of human supremacy a bit far fetched in light of our overall actions; though we do have potential…

        Just trawling permie stuff and came across a very good clip on swales. Due to the paucity of clear and concise information I’ll share it here for you, your clients, farmers, the planet…

    • greywarshark 17.2

      Don’t get down about the farmers changing WtB. We don’t believe in a flat earth any more do we? So they will catch on one day. Trouble is nobody gets old and dies now. Ninety is the new 75, so it takes longer for the churn of young people who can change to get to the top. I don’t think we have time to plod along and wait for the old to pass. And so many of all ages are wedded to the idea that having ideas is a mental disease – look at all the plonkers and noxious weeds we get here. A little bit of bare screen and up pops another stinking bindweed.

      • WeTheBleeple 17.2.1

        Yeah. It’s that frustration that change is too slow rearing it’s head again. Must soldier on. Lumping farmers all together is a bit rough as well. Sorry Folks.

        Dairy farmers are largely responsible for cheese. So really, they’re almost Gods.

        The fact it is possible to still make significant change and mitigation to, well, mitigate… it drives me a bit nuts.

        And the onus is not simply on agriculture. We all need to be on board together.

        Section owners can sequester carbon, save money, get exercise, reduce health bills, reduce food bills, reduce food miles, reduce landscaping costs and petroleum use, provide bbq fuel, meet neighbors, get fresh air, smell the roses…

        Just by gardening with permaculture principles. They can do a course, buy books, phone a friend or youtube how to get there. The benefits listed are significant. These also include mitigating climate related stress.

        It would help tremendously. We could restore concept’s like wartime’s Victory Gardens. War on Climate Change Victory Gardens, for all!

        The more sustainable systems within the environment, the more resilience we will have, the more chance we all get.

        Preaching to the converted a bit – always with the awareness other readers read our conversations.

        • Robert Guyton

          We need a dedicate,d well “baited” post that’s put up first thing in the day on a day when there are lots of readers. Then we’d get some great discussions and perhaps turn the blog in a positive, practical, shared-experience direction. There are a number of posters here with lively, useful, creative and inspirational ideas on this topic. Can we do that? Yes, we can!

          • WeTheBleeple

            I’ve thought about this, but don’t want to be seen to be trying to dominate the board or indulging in repetitive bashing over heads which turns folks away. A few of us working on solutions and positive news of people implementing ideas could work however, as variety of thoughts and styles really helps communicate ideas anyway. I’m more than willing to pitch in.

            Yep. I’m in.

            It’s a highly politicised topic, I don’t think The Standard would mind us steering more conversation to this area. I’m sure they’ll chime in if they do mind.

            • Robert Guyton

              Let’s try one and see how it goes. Perhaps tomorrow, on Open Mike we could put the idea up, gather supporters, attract the attention of a mod and set the day. Whaddayareckon?

              • Robert Guyton

                Or, maybe an author could simply post this quote from Mike Joy 🙂
                “The problems faced by New Zealand’s environment, particularly freshwaters and soils are wicked, complex and intertwined. After struggling with these issues for a half a lifetime, it strikes me with great clarity that if you look at each in isolation they seem intractable; but when you grasp that there could be one single solution that addresses them all, then suddenly there is a glimpse of light at the end of the tunnel.

                Take, for example, a subset of the many environmental issues facing New Zealand, such as bacterial and pathogen contamination of water and soil, excess nutrients in waters, excess sediment in waterways, freshwater habitat loss, groundwater contaminated with pesticides and nutrients, and the huge loss of the mauri of waterways. Any of these issues appear impossibly hard and/or expensive if evaluated in isolation for costs, or for the difficulty or value of resolution.

                But if there was one action available that substantially addressed all of the issues listed above, then the decision would be simple – take that action. When multiple gains can be made for the cost of a single action, and the combined gains far outweigh the single cost of that one action, the next move is obvious. When it comes to the freshwater crisis, a single solution does exist – simply, reducing farming intensity: less cows.”

                • WeTheBleeple

                  Yes. Gathering helpers/support is a great first step. Possibly form a core group on the topic and see if the Standard might let us write regular articles. We might concentrate on mitigation and solutions rather than climate change itself – the very nature of our posts would spell that out anyway. It might set a better tone than ‘more climate browbeating’ as the audience is relatively receptive.

                  I guess put the idea, or the idea to develop the idea, out there; and see who is interested and what ideas spring forth in the discussion.

                  On climate browbeating, the debate is over on climate changes existence. Deniers are trolls, professional or Trumped up.

                  Should we be engaging them anymore? I guess those in positions of power need to be challenged; but the mindless troll wants us to engage them, not ideas for solutions.

                  I met Mike Joy was a meet and greet for him when Generation Zero brought him to UoA. Went to the lecture and thoroughly enjoyed it. Learned a bit about stream make-up I didn’t know, the existence (loss) of significant interstitial spaces (from siltation) between the rocks. That stuff bothered me.

                  The interstitial spaces were how, back in the day when living in the bush, a small creek I camped beside had an astounding abundance of life. That which I could see was merely the surface. And those layers of rocks beneath the surface, coated in biofilm, were a large part of the systems food chain where nutrient loads were captured and converted up the food chain, rather than overwhelming and filling the gaps with crud.

                  • Robert Guyton

                    I reckon, don’t mention “climate change” at all – take it as a given and bypass the naysayers. The techno-solution folk as well, could do as we are proposing and raise a post to keep our “earthy” topic clear of junk 🙂 There have, of course, been plenty of very good posts by a range of authors here before, all hail those people, but we, I think, are yearning for something a bit more organic, less confrontational, more collective and …fun? I am, anyway.

                    • WeTheBleeple

                      Yes. For me the important part is to be more solutions oriented. And I do appreciate the efforts of all, whether I like the approach or not. I feed into confrontational stuff too easily, but it’s not good for my, or anyone’s, mental health.

                      Fun! Don’t you know we ARE ALL DOOMED!

                      Working on a comedy project last night with a mate. We were in tears.

                      “Pandas are wife beaters. That’s why they’re not breeding. Give them a bamboo buffet, running water, ambient music, candles, and years to figure it out. Whadda ya get?

                      Two black eyes, no babies.”

                  • greywarshark

                    I want to achieve something here not just say why dont they…..?
                    I wrote to shane jones and stuart nash – got confirmation email but feel they will never get back to me. Tried to discuss small is beautiful but everyone else was too busy,

                    but if we had a regular thread that contained an archive and we could put up useful stuff to build a data base – not quite sure how to do it however.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Something along the lines of Dark Mountain (only not dark 🙂
                      There have to be poems.

                    • WeTheBleeple

                      ‘but if we had a regular thread that contained an archive and we could put up useful stuff to build a data base”

                      I’m not sure how to do it either, but I’m sure some folks here do.

                      Absolutely we need more poetry.

                      You can be the first to view this wee gem. I’m biased…

                      This is Westmere.

                      The ladies are out walking their goat
                      With a hint of patchouli and strong smell of dope
                      There’s a man in a dress eating salmon on toast
                      This is Westmere

                      A once was an actor with pot belly gut
                      Working on ads for community stuff
                      But never a nod cos he’s too cool for us
                      This is Westmere

                      The kids from the state houses scream with delight
                      As chickens tear past them in panic and fright
                      The rich kids look on through windows sealed tight
                      This is Westmere

                      Trophy wives training in makeup and perms
                      Jogging cos fatties get kicked to the kerb
                      It’s all about looks and they do look superb
                      This is Westmere

                      A crazy hotch potch of classes and race
                      A magical marvelous mystery place
                      But gentrification moves at some pace
                      This was Westmere.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Is “Westmere” your own work,WTB?
                      If so, congratulations; it’s very good indeed.

              • Great idea, Robert, WTB. Open Mike and Daily Review throw up some terrific discussions but dedicated posts definitely work better for engagement. There’s always the guest post option and we are always looking for new authors.

                There are serious time/work/life demands that impact on the regular authors’ ability to post, so TS does often rely on OM to cover issues that really deserve a post of their own. Anything you guys can come up with that enhances the way the site operates would be most welcome.

                • Robert Guyton

                  Hi te reo putake
                  Thanks for responding to our discussion (of last night).
                  I get the demand-on-authors thing and wonder if the idea that follows might alleviate that pressure. It seems (to me) that we don’t need an authored intro or topic for what we propose; we’re just looking for one step up from Open Mike, which invites comment on everything under the sun, to a thread where “the way forward” can be discussed, within parameters such as doable suggestions, successful examples, contributions from readers who support the concept (of the thread), new “takes” on the future etc. There’s no need to set a topic or change the look of the thread; we’ll know where we can go to talk in this way about these things. I have a suggestion: put up, at your or other authors discretion, a “standard” post, titled “How to get there” – it’s also the title of a wonderful Michael Leunig poem/cartoon, and illustrate the post with that very image to make it immediately recognisable and set the tone for discussions that might/will follow. Here’s the link to Leunig’s poem. I’m certain he won’t mind us using it; I’ve met him and he’s delightful 🙂
                  Hi te reo putake
                  Thanks for responding to our discussion (of last night).
                  I get the demand-on-authors thing and wonder if the idea that follows might alleviate that pressure. It seems (to me) that we don’t need an authored intro or topic for what we propose; we’re just looking for one step up from Open Mike, which invites comment on everything under the sun, to a thread where “the way forward” can be discussed, within parameters such as doable suggestions, successful examples, contributions from readers who support the concept (of the thread), new “takes” on the future etc. There’s no need to set a topic or change the look of the thread; we’ll know where we can go to talk in this way about these things. I have a suggestion: put up, at your or other authors discretion, a “standard” post, titled “How to get there” – it’s also the title of a wonderful Michael Leunig poem/cartoon, and illustrate the post with that very image to make it immediately recognisable and set the tone for discussions that might/will follow. Here’s the link to Leunig’s poem. I’m certain he won’t mind us using it; I’ve met him and he’s delightful 🙂


                  HOW TO GET THERE
                  Go to the end of the path until you get to the gate.
                  Go through the gate and head straight out towards the horizon.
                  Keep going towards the horizon.
                  Sit down and have a rest every now and again,
                  But keep on going, just keep on with it.
                  Keep on going as far as you can.
                  That’s how you get there.

                  As far as moderation is concerned, I suspect those taking part will manage their own, given the tenor of the thread and its intention; could be wrong, of course, but a trial will soon test that.
                  I’ll post this on today’s (Thursday’s) Open Mike, in case this thread has been lost into the mists of time or you are off-duty 🙂
                  All criticisms, suggestions welcomed, naturally.

  18. Morrissey 18

    Utter morons declare their admiration for Seal Team 6

    The disturbing enforcement of praise for those murderers starts at about the 2:00 mark…

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