Open mike 19/11/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 19th, 2022 - 161 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

161 comments on “Open mike 19/11/2022 ”

  1. bwaghorn 1

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/world/uk/300743302/economy-in-free-fall-britain-hikes-taxes-to-save-sinking-economy

    Huh ,I've woken up in a parallel universe it would seem. Same but very different.

  2. weka 2

    Thing about twitter is no one knows what’s going to happen,

    https://twitter.com/mosquitocapital/status/1593541177965678592

  3. Mac1 3

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/130516576/no-consequences-they-believe-they-can-get-away-with-whatever-they-want

    Andrew Gunn on page B5 in the Christchurch Press satirises Luxon, boot camps and a 'hard core of young, anti-social, born-to-rule chinless wonders" who are at risk of being 'parachuted into a safe seat for life.'

    "They see no consequences whatsoever and believe they can get away with whatever they want".

    Brilliant satire……. if only.

    • Shanreagh 3.1

      I always get a bit sad that they have to put the label satire on these columns. We have become such literalists. It pains me to think that the appreciation of all these fabulous uses of language/figures of speech are incapable of being read and recognised for what they are.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 3.2

      Very good – thanks.

      As at press time, Mr Luxon was unavailable for comment as he had to put in another shift at McDonalds, just like everyone else who owns seven houses.

    • weka 4.1

      first speaker (position = trans rights are not up for debate and it was wrong to invite Kathleen Stock to be part of the debate) just made the proposition that because we have the right to say something doesn't mean we should say it. Not sure they intended this, but it came across as: you have the right to say something, but it's wrong to say it.

      Don't think he's made an argument to support that.

      • weka 4.1.1

        summarises the point of contention as definition of what is a man/woman, but refuses to debate this because that's debating trans people.

        Instead they're going to look at Stock's actions eg tweets and support.

        Starting with the LGB Alliance, they appear to make a number of negative assertions about LGBA (some of which are almost certainly not true and/or a misrepresentation of the LGBA position), and then asserts that Stock's involvement with the organisation is akin to having the same positions.

        LGBA do 'truly reprehensible things', therefore support cannot be defensible. They don't provide evidence for the assertion of truly reprehensible. I don't know if this is normal in formal debate.

      • Anker 4.1.2

        Kalicott came across as thoroughly arrogant. I am allowed to offend and say what I want about Kathleen Stock, but she doesn't have the right too.

        Cherry picked distortions about LGB Alliance

        Guy at 34 was excellent

    • weka 4.2

      Chair makes a statement that the speakers must address the proposition (this house believes in the right to offend), rather than focusing on other speakers.

      second speaker, opposition to motion, Teodor Grama. Protest outside, agrees with protestors, it's wrong that the topic is being debated at the CU, but believes the debate is going to happen anyway so better to be involved.

      His main argument is more interesting – that his side of the debate has the ability for nuance whereas the affirming side of 'right to offend' doesn't (the latter is a position that all offense is acceptable as free speech).

      He uses Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses as an example of speech that many find offensive, but the offense is outweighed by the social good of the book.

      His side wants to say some offense serves a social good, but there are other offenses that are unacceptable. He names homophobia, transphobia, racism and all 'other' forms of prejudice. He doesn't say who gets to decide. I will note that he didn't name misogyny (pertinent because prejudice against women is increasingly being made invisible as a social justice issue despite half the human population being female, and because lots of progressive men are complicit in this).

      • weka 4.2.1

        talking now about why the right to offend "is not a mere legal prohibition on state censorship". Why are we having this debate? Because various commentators have expressed offensive views in various forms. Names Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, and JK Rowling, as three examples (spot the difference 🙄).

        They haven't complained about not being legally allowed to speak, they've complained about cancel culture and deplatforming (says the young white man privileged enough to attend Cambridge University). He calls this backlash and social sanction, and goes on to make the assertion that the affirmative side, in supporting the right to offend is also saying that society should accept all speech without intervention, and that it is "illegitimate to restrict the proliferation of such views through any social means we have available, protest or otherwise"

        This is clearly a nonsense. While the libertarian side of the free speech debate might be closer to that, gender critical feminists are clearly not saying that at all. Which makes me think he doesn't know what the GC views are (hence him grouping JKR with JP and Shapiro). Maybe he has no class analysis either and can't recognise left/right wing political positions and how they change meaning of GC.

        In other words, he is saying that the right to offend must give 'fair hearing' to racism, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, transphobia, homophobia (the omission of misogyny is glaring now). He's trying to put the opposition view into a box of his making, rather than understanding it in its own terms and then critiquing it.

        This is particularly relevant because Kathleen Stock's starting position as a philosopher is that we should be able to argue our opponent's position in a way that is fair to them, before we criticise it.

        It's a feature of the gender/sex wars that genderists generally can't or won't do that. This is true of the first two speakers (who are genderists).

        He now talks about why the affirmative can't meaningfully make a case for their position. The necessity of giving all views a fair hearing without censure means that individuals cannot respond in the free market of idea based on their own views, desires, values etc. It's an infringement on autonomy for people to listen to what they want and respond.

        We do place restrictions eg on politicians during elections, and this serves a good social purpose.

        Now he argues that offensive views generate more harm than social good (seems unaware of the irony of his views being offensive and thus being harmful, lol). He uses a broad category here of marginalised, minority people, vulnerable groups, who are denied free expression because of fear of ridicule and attacks. That the offensive views (which he hasn't defined) dehumanise them and infringe on their dignity).

        Sidebar here. Penny just dropped. I think he's talking about trans people being the worst oppressed people,

        … bombarded from all sides with all sorts of rhetoric and discourse that dehumanises them, that makes them feel horrible, that makes them feel incapable of engaging properly

        but he's also as a white man talking about how white men are now treated by society. I doubt this is conscious, but it does explain why so many blokes feel much more affinity with trans people than they do with women. It also explains the refusal to understand or take seriously left wing GCF views. It's the patriarchy in action, make women the baddies. He goes on to say that people who make others feel this way should be deplatformed. Feminists eh, the ones who insist that feminism is politics for females.

    • weka 4.3

      Speakers from the floor. First one is another white dude arguing against women's rights to single sex spaces 🙄 Using an argument that opposition to gender mixed toilets comes from the right.

      Speaker abstaining, another white man saying the debate has been a waste of his time because the speakers have failed to engage with points of information on comments they have made that are controversial and worthy of discussion. Sniping comments have been made about the guest speaker (Stock) and the first speaker basically ran an attack on her. The topic is worthy of debate, there are historical and contemporary reasons why, and it should be treated with more respect. Man standing up and arguing for debate rather than rhetoric.

      Speaker opposing the motion, young black man, hard to hear as he didn't have a mike, but seems to be saying that the power that a person has matters in terms of the impact of what they say. Talking about something at the university, one of the departments and professors talking about race intelligence? Offensive words are made to harm, the house should oppose the right to offend.

      Just realised that the background noise is the protest outside (using sound to disrupt people speaking is a common tactic of the genderist side).

    • roblogic 4.4

      Kathleen Stock was clearly nervous and you could hear the loud groups of protesters outside desperate to disrupt proceedings. But kudos to her for standing up and speaking out on behalf of a basic democratic right — to say things that some find heretical or offensive. She has bigger cojones than most of us.

      Prof. Arif Ahmed from Cambridge (from about 1:14:00) was very eloquent and made his points graciously about public discourse in a democracy — and how the "right not to be offended" is always used by the dominant group in society to shut down dissent e.g. the governments of China or Iran. His closing quotes:

      “Take away the right to say ‘fuck’ and you take away the right to say ‘fuck the government.”
      Lenny Bruce

      "This freedom of speech and these human rights were paid for by generations long ago, and they were paid for in courage and in blood. They weren't designed to make us comfortable; they were designed to keep us free."
      Baroness Chakrabarti

      • weka 4.4.1

        haven't watched the second half yet but her speech was so good, such a relief to hear that intelligence on all levels.

        And yes, very brave.

        • Anker 4.4.1.1

          Kathleen Stock excellent and she looked rattled. Understandably so. Must have brought back the harrassment (masked men on campas calling to get rid of Stock).

          Shes one brave women.

    • weka 4.5

      Kathleen Stock, philosopher, former professor, author, lesbian (wouldn't normally mention that but the whole lesbians should have sex with trans identified males is the context).

      She starts by saying that she's not going to respond to the things that have been said about her, although she obviously disagrees. It's fine for people to say what they want to say. She's going to respond to the debate question: is there a right to offend?

  4. roblogic 5

    Newshub: Jacinda was hugely complimented at APEC in Thailand yesterday…

    Jacinda Ardern is in Thailand for the APEC meeting, heading straight to a CEO Summit. There, she was given an embarrassment of compliments in an introduction to her speech.

    Ardern was described as: "The most effective leader on the planet… the greatest thinker of the COVID era."

    "I almost felt slightly embarrassed by the generosity of it," she said afterwards.

    • Mac1 5.1

      "A prophet in her own country", at least for some.

      Meanwhile Luxon is now being satirised at home for doughnut politics where you u-turn on a u-turn of a u-turn, his ridiculous re-invention of militaristic boot-camp intervention and National's inability to see the effects on poor candidate selections by the interventions of powerful ruling elites.

  5. Temp ORary 6

    Labour party seems set to sacrifice principles for convenience once again. Which would be surprising, except it really isn't.

    I don't comment much on this site anymore; given the suffocating transphobia that I find it healthier to avoid subjecting myself to. But did participate in discussion around the proposed Incitement to Discrimination law changes the other year. So it seemed appropriate to mention this development here, rather than my usual online discussion places. At least until I get some of the disgust I feel for those craven poll chasers out of my system. I was liking being a swing voter, now I have much fewer voting options (never ACT, certainly not Luxon Nats, and now with Labour stacking gutlessness upon gutlessness – I am left with few choices next year).

    Proposed last year in response to the March 15 terror attack and the Royal Commission report that followed, the reforms were due to expand protections to women, religious groups and rainbow and disabled communities, among others. As it stands, only hate speech on the basis of race, skin colour or national origin is prohibited…

    However, Newsroom understands, the scope of the reforms is likely to be severely curtailed. Justice Minister Kiri Allan has discussed only adding religion to the list of protected grounds and making no further changes to hate speech law…

    A related programme to reform hate crimes, which are offences like assault or vandalism committed with a hateful motive, may be stalled, Newsroom also understands. Hate crime reforms were another recommendation from the Royal Commission, which the Government accepted in principle in 2020.

    A spokesperson for Allan declined to comment.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/hate-speech-reforms-drastically-watered-down

    • Molly 6.1

      Thanks for beginning this timely discussion.

      "I don't comment much on this site anymore; given the suffocating transphobia that I find it healthier to avoid subjecting myself to."

      Disagreeing with you, or speaking about the impacts of legislative and policy changes is not transphobia, but it is often labelled as such.

      As for the bill, it is unnecessary and should be thrown out in its entirety.

    • Sacha 6.2

      The transphobia cultivated here is an ongoing shame. And another pissweak backdown from Labour to please who? The fearful old people who would vote for Winston or the Nats anyway.

      • Molly 6.2.2

        "The transphobia cultivated here is an ongoing shame. "

        The repeatedly unevidenced accusation is shameful.

        I know you think otherwise – so, on this we disagree.

        • Sacha 6.2.2.1

          I do not expect you to examine your own conscience but it is a narrow path to choose.

          • weka 6.2.2.1.1

            Please stop trolling. If you want to have a conversation on TS about transphobia, then have the conversation rather than making vague digs that can’t be responded to meaningfully.

            • Sacha 6.2.2.1.1.1

              Merely wanted to make sure a commenter who said "I don't comment much on this site anymore; given the suffocating transphobia that I find it healthier to avoid subjecting myself to" did not see the only response being a denial of their reality. Not expecting your small group to change their minds.

              [that’s not the problem, it’s how you did it. I see from your response that you won’t stop trolling, so take a week off. When you come back you are welcome to talk about transphobia, and/or affirm other people’s realities, but you cannot troll here. If you want an explanation of the difference, then ask – weka]

              • weka

                mod note.

                • SPC

                  You do realise, all you have done is to confirm everything that Sacha said?

                  The first irony is that this is the very reason the Labour Party has failed to make much progress with legislation. All the nuance, such as tightening up on the definition of what speech is in breech counts for nought, because of a fear that woke/PC activists will make groundless complaints to police to de-platform others.

                  The second irony is that G-CF see themselves as victims of the same de-platforming

                  https://twitter.com/Womans_Place_UK/status/1592929163039899649

                  PS G-CF, coz nothing shows up on google for “GCF”.

                  • weka

                    You do realise, all you have done is to confirm everything that Sacha said?

                    Please explain. Because no, I don't know what you are meaning. Use your words. It might be obvious to you, it’s not to me (I was just modding as I do based on a pattern of behaviour of someone who should know better and I didn’t want to waste any more of my time on it. Something that is also consistent with most mods here).

                    The first irony is that this is the very reason the Labour Party has failed to make much progress with legislation. All the nuance, such as tightening up on the definition of what speech is in breech counts for nought, because of a fear that woke/PC activists will make groundless complaints to police to de-platform others.

                    Again, don't know which legislation you are referring to. But as with Three Waters, there are a range of reasons for opposition. People who try and box it into for/progressive and against/bigots do the country a massive disservice.

                    The second irony is that GCF see themselves as victims of the same de-platforming

                    and again, what is your point? Women's Place UK did have an event dropped by Eventbrite, allegedly because of EB's hateful speech policy. We will see if that stands, because the legal precedents have been established in UK law already that gender critical views are protected under law.

                    So what was your point exactly?

                    • SPC

                      Sigh .. the being required to repeat myself to explain …

                      You do realise, all you have done is to confirm everything that Sacha said? Which was

                      Merely wanted to make sure a commenter who said "I don't comment much on this site anymore; given the suffocating transphobia that I find it healthier to avoid subjecting myself to" did not see the only response being a denial of their reality.

                      Onto

                      Again, don't know which legislation you are referring to.

                      Sigh – it's obviously that under discussion from 6 on. The long proposed change to legislation on hate speech (as to what it covers and in what way.

                      As for what was the point of my observation about those who practice de-platforming while complaining about it themselves – I will refer to the post of roblogic below still on 6

                      People who believe in trans theology/gender theory are perfectly within their rights to do so. Trying to evangelise others and force them into a belief system that they find idiotic (to put it politely) is what gets their backs up.

                      OTOH those who hold to trans theology/gender theory as a vital part of their identity have a right to feel aggrieved or offended when their religious beliefs are mocked. But that goes for any culture. It feels bad when Māori culture is sidelined or suppressed, or when my own religion is trashed in the news.

                      Doesn't give me a right to cancel the free speech of others or to force them to submit to my beliefs.

                    • weka []

                      Sigh .. the being required to repeat myself to explain …

                      You can imagine how I feel being expected to engage with someone @ing me on a Saturday over a moderation when they can’t even be bothered to explain themselves.

                      You do realise, all you have done is to confirm everything that Sacha said? Which was

                      Merely wanted to make sure a commenter who said “I don’t comment much on this site anymore; given the suffocating transphobia that I find it healthier to avoid subjecting myself to” did not see the only response being a denial of their reality.

                      So not everything Sacha said, but this one specific thing. What have I confirmed? You still haven’t explained. I’ll guess. You think that Sacha shouldn’t have been banned because he’s needed here to make sure that Temp doesn’t feel something? Why should someone who is obviously trolling be given allowances when others aren’t?

                      Again, don’t know which legislation you are referring to.

                      Sigh – it’s obviously that under discussion from 6 on. The long proposed change to legislation on hate speech (as to what it covers and in what way.

                      Again, it’s not obvious. I wasn’t reading the thread for content, I was reading it to moderate. They’re two different things. Sometimes moderators use the comment flow in the back end and we don’t see the whole conversation in context, we just see someone with a pattern of behaviour trolling and we intervene.

                      As for what was the point of my observation about those who practice de-platforming while complaining about it themselves – I will refer to the post of roblogic below still on 6

                      People who believe in trans theology/gender theory are perfectly within their rights to do so. Trying to evangelise others and force them into a belief system that they find idiotic (to put it politely) is what gets their backs up.

                      OTOH those who hold to trans theology/gender theory as a vital part of their identity have a right to feel aggrieved or offended when their religious beliefs are mocked. But that goes for any culture. It feels bad when Māori culture is sidelined or suppressed, or when my own religion is trashed in the news.

                      Doesn’t give me a right to cancel the free speech of others or to force them to submit to my beliefs.

                      Still no idea what you are on about. I know what Rob means. I don’t know what you mean. Nothing worthwhile bothering with as apparently you can’t be arsed explaining. Maybe I’ll guess again. You think the moderating trolls is a suppression of free speech and I shouldn’t have done it. Who the fuck knows though.

                      We are here for the robust debate. Stop expecting people to mind read, make your argument or go away, because I don’t want to be wasting my time.

                    • SPC

                      So what was your point exactly?

                      I did not see the support for Temp Orary view (first post and latter in his response to others) as trolling (but supportive to a greater diversity of contributor and involvement on "gender ID" debates). And otherwise his posts on 6 were in relation to the hate speech law itself and added to the debate.

                    • weka []

                      thanks, now I understand. Can you please say that up front next time?

                      I didn’t moderate Sacha for his political content. He was moderated for his pattern of behaviours trolling.

                      I’m fine with people offering support and solidarity to Temp (or anyone). What is not ok is the sly digs all the way through. Intentional digs imo. If Sacha wanted to talk about the issues, he should have talked about the issues. If he wanted to support Temp, he can do that without the digs. The digs are the trolling, not the desire to offer support. I think trans people here do deserve more support. However this is a political blog, and there are substantial politics involved, ones that Sacha is largely in denial about and refuses to engage with. That’s his choice, but he can’t have it both ways.

                      I also won’t countenance left wing men making derogatory trolling comments about feminists. That’s just bullshit on a site like this. Sacha is well aware of just how difficult it is for feminists to write and comment here, so I can only take his support for Temp and digs at feminists and him picking a very particular side. He can do this of course, but he can’t troll from that. He has a history of this now, and it’s time it stopped. He can either front up and engage in the debate or he can keep his digs to himself.

                    • Anker

                      In repsonse to Weka re SUFW not really left wing. They did a survery of themselves and most of them were Green/Labs.

                      Early on they were accused on not caring about other feminists causes. So they listed annonymously all the causes they had been involved with e.g Sos abortion services in the 1970s, The SB tour, rape crisis. The list is impressive. I am trying to post the link to the page but having some difficulty.
                      Nope no go, but visit SUFW and click on who we are for interest.

                    • weka []

                      fair point. I was thinking of the people who are the public face of the group.

                    • Anker

                      Re SUFW leadership….Ani O'b is no longer in that role.

                      New woman is a very strong lesbian leftie

                      In fact I would estimate at least 50% are lesbians.

                      Still can't post that link unfortunately

                    • Anker

                      Thanks Molly for that link. (ie. SUFW who we are link)

                      It is an impressive list of women supporting women and activism for women's and other causes.

                      Millsy where are you? I seem to think you think SUFW are right wing christian bigots. Here's the reality

                  • Anker

                    SPC "G-CF see themselves as victims of the same deplatforming"

                    But actually gender critical feminists experienced a significant de platforming, when SUFW tried to have meetings about the self id gender bill to discuss this legislation in public libraries. They were smeared and mis represented and one by one their meetings were shut down by the libraries.

                    SUFW then took Palmerston North Library to the High Court and won the right to hold their meeetings. The High Court judges declared SUFW was not a hate group.

                    In all my years of activism, I have never had this experience before and this was a group of women who are largely feminist, left wing and non denominational.

                    I apprecaite the Standard every day as a place I can exercise my free speech

                • Temp ORary

                  Weka

                  I did have a (way too long) comment written yestereve that I decided to put aside unposted. Not least because it might be taken, in part, as criticism of site moderators. I may recycle it from word processor folder next week when Sacha is allowed to participate in the discourse again.

                  Does their banning expire on next Saturday or Sunday?

      • Anker 6.2.3

        What transphobia?

        There are a number of gender critical women (and some men) on this site, who don't agree with gender ideology or queer theory.

        For me not only do I not accept these theories (although I accept the right of people to believe them), I see a lot of harmful things about these ideologies that are not get reported in the NZ media.

        Amongst other things

        1. The medicalization for children and young people with a mental disorder known as gender dysphoria. I have grave concerns that young people are being offered affirmative gender care that doesn't question why a young person might be feeling so distressed with their sexed body. Fast tracking kids to puberty blockers and then cross sex hormones rather than providing them with appropriate exploratory therapy to get to the bottom of their distress. Overseas countries such as the UK, France and Finland have rolled back use of PB . Reluctantly NZ Health was forced to change the advice on their website that PB are safe and fully reversible.
        2. I believe in biological reality, that women are a sex class that need and deserve their own protected speaces in as much as they should have women only change rooms, prisons, refuges, accommodation, sporting competitions and scholarships etc.

        I feel no shame whatsoever that I am speaking up about this.

        • Sacha 6.2.3.1

          I do not expect you to feel shame. It is one though.

          • The Fairy Godmother 6.2.3.1.1

            Shame is always a tool used by cults. If you do not adhere to the beliefs of the cult. If you question the premises of the cult; in this instance the premise that one can choose ones gender and children should helped to do so with drugs and surgery then you should feel ashamed. Cults will also disfellowship people in other words cancel them and refuse to engage with them.This is very unhealthy and causes much harm. Why not engage and talk to other people and find out what they think and why. This is one of the things I really like about the standard.

          • Sabine 6.2.3.1.2

            What do you think would be the appropriate punishment for a social and colonial construct who refuses to feel shame for not believing in transubstantiation?

            • Incognito 6.2.3.1.2.1

              100 lashes with leaf lettuce from Luxon’s Bic Mac and mandatory reprogramming in Luxon’s boot camp by having to listen to all his episodes of QT until you feel tears of sorrow, pity, and shame and vote for anything but Labour or Green Party.

            • Molly 6.2.3.1.2.2

              Apparently, it's having to expect and accept with resigned equanimity, inane responses such as the one above…wink

              • Sabine

                I am very much looking forward casting a vote for Legalise Aotearoa. No social constructs of any kind will be harmed with my vote. 🙂

              • Incognito

                People, especially self-righteous ones, are so quick to judge, especially when they miss the meaning of words and misunderstand and/or misinterpret the concepts, analogies, and metaphors used by others with whom they have already decided to disagree cheeky

                • Molly

                  Alternatively, it could just be that a shared sense of humour does not exist, given that no content to either agree or disagree with was on offer.

                  Eg. I thought your comment was not funny, and mine was. laugh

                  • Incognito

                    As with many subjective comments rather than rational reasoned debates, judging one’s humour as funny or not is highly subjective. Perhaps it wasn’t humour per se but a means to convey something without making it sound too harsh in order to make it more palatable to those who are less receptive because of the dogmatic walls they have erected/constructed.

                    The first part of my comment was, of course, about (public) flogging and shaming as a form of punishment and a tool of manipulation. Public shaming is very common in sexual hate speech, as you know. Flogging with word salads is common here too; TS has its own Grand Executioner, who shall not be named right now, and some self-righteous regulars just love it.

                    I’m happy to expand and elaborate on my comment to demonstrate the underlying politics and political message that involves public shaming and invoking shame and conscience on this political blog to score points rather than to further/foster constructive debate. It may show you that there was actually an awful lot of content packed into that brief ‘inane’ comment of mine, which you happened to miss or ignore. Just say the word smiley

                    • Molly

                      ". It may show you that there was actually an awful lot of content packed into that brief ‘inane’ comment of mine, which you happened to miss or ignore. Just say the word "

                      Thanks, Incognito for the offer.

                      The word is "No."

                      laugh

            • roblogic 6.2.3.1.2.3

              People who believe in trans theology/gender theory are perfectly within their rights to do so. Trying to evangelise others and force them into a belief system that they find idiotic (to put it politely) is what gets their backs up.

              OTOH those who hold to trans theology/gender theory as a vital part of their identity have a right to feel aggrieved or offended when their religious beliefs are mocked. But that goes for any culture. It feels bad when Māori culture is sidelined or suppressed, or when my own religion is trashed in the news.

              Doesn't give me a right to cancel the free speech of others or to force them to submit to my beliefs.

            • Shanreagh 6.2.3.1.2.4

              Did you really mean 'transubstantiation' in its usual theological meaning:

              'the conversion of the substance of the Eucharistic elements into the body and blood of Christ at consecration, only the appearances of bread and wine still remaining'.

              or

              Transubstantiation is, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, "the change of the whole substance of bread into the substance of the Body of Christ and of the whole substance of wine into the substance of the Blood of Christ"

              as opposed to consubstantiation

              https://www.britannica.com/topic/consubstantiation

              These are long term uses of language. The trans debate has already cost bio women much in human rights with the lack of guaranteed access to safe spaces. Personally I would be unhappy if the trans debate also claimed a serviceable and specific word to its uses.

              NB I support human rights ie no discrimination for transgender people but not at the cost of hard fought for human rights for women.

              Or were you meaning it in the context of an Emperors New Clothes or Alice (words mean what I want them to mean).

              In which case it is a very clever use.

              transubstantiation,,,,,that the anti female trans community says happens to them even without any genital surgery, ie they magically turn to bio females.

              I'd be happier though with the use of consubstantiation to represent my idea of what happens. Blood & wine of Christ are represented by wine and water. Trans women look like women but are not women.

              Again reinforcing that no-one should be denied human rights or subject to insult by the way they look.

              Again Sacha a clever use of words.

              • Sabine

                I think David Chappelle said it very well

                "I support anyone's right to be who they want to be. My question is: to what extent do I have to participate in your self-image?"

                I would add to that quote, at what stage am i allowed to opt out of participating in someone elses self image as a validation tool, specially when it starts to endanger those like me and removes my rights and the language that i need to advocate for myself and those like me.

                Anyone can pretend/believe that an unleavened wafer and a drop of bad wine is the body and the blood of Christ, and anyone should be allowed to not believe that same thing. In the end, it is only an unleavened wafer and a drop of bad wine.

                Ditto for people who would like to pretend that they are the other sex. They are not. They can present stereotypically feminine or masculine, but no male has ever given birth and no female has ever inseminated another.
                And it will also not happen in the future. These are just basic facts of life. And we should be able to admit these realities, and build on that.

                Disclaimer: I lived for nine years in a convent and well, i don't do submission and obedience very well i guess.

                • Shanreagh

                  I agree with what you say.

                  Thankfully the school I went to Anglican, prided itself of growing, for want of a better word, stroppy females prepared to question. We led a huge revolt when a headmaster tried to move us from middlebrow Anglican to High Anglican, with all sorts of prayers throughout the day. To do this meant urgent research on all matters theological so we could marshall our arguments. So we were not submissive either.

                  I would add to that quote, at what stage am i allowed to opt out of participating in someone elses self image as a validation tool, specially when it starts to endanger those like me and removes my rights and the language that i need to advocate for myself and those like me.

                  This is very powerful Sabine.

    • Ad 6.3

      No NZ government on our history has advanced the interests of the trans community like this one in both legal protection and directed health expenditure.

      What this government needs to work on more is protecting them from physical harm.

      The survey on how well NZPolice are dealing with the massively high proportion of violence against trans and binary people will have useful results for Police and for comparing against the last Crime and Victims Survey.

      Transgender, non-binary abuse victims asked for experiences with police | Stuff.co.nz

      This actual protection from violence, not more legislation, is where they need to focus their effort.

      • Molly 6.3.1

        That article demonstrates very little evidence of harm, but rather survey respondents self- perception of harm:

        "…including the fear of being discriminated against…"

        This is a particular interesting example, worth further discussion:

        ""We have seen changes, for example if a trans woman is being assaulted by her husband, and he says that's because he's found out she's trans, that will no longer be treated as an excuse," she says."

        So, let's go through this:

        (NB: Framed as a long-term relationship through the use of husband, implying marriage and previous intimate knowledge, but is relevant in terms of any intimate relationship, including casual sex.)

        1. Domestic assault regardless of identity is treated as such, regardless of the excuses offered by the abuser.
        2. A reaction to finding out your sexual partner is not the sex you thought they were, leads to questions about:
        • sex by deception;
        • sexual consent;
        • and the right to have respected your sexual orientation.

        Looking for information regarding this issue from our own advisory rainbow community organisations, it is not fully addressed, while they advocate consent be agreed upon, they also advise that as a transperson you are not compelled to "out yourself" to anyone.

        If you engage in a sexual act with someone who you know has a sexual orientation that excludes you as an intimate partner, and know that they perceive you to be another sex, and you not only don't rectify that perception but encourage it – is this either sex by deception, sexual orientation conversion of some type, or both?

        1. The article also tucks in misgendering as a violent act, and uses the actual violence perpetrated on bisexual (report linked to includes lesbians and gays) and extrapolates it to the whole LGBTQ+ community.

        "The report also found that 47 percent of bisexual adults are likely to experience crime over a 12-month period compared with 30 percent for the New Zealand average.

        Lesbian or gay adults during their lifetime will experience more than double the rate of sexual violence from their partners at 33 percent compared to the New Zealand average of 16 percent."

        • Ad 6.3.1.1

          Perception of harm, better known as fear, is a pretty useful indicator of your place in the offending world.

          Now that self-identification is easier, the Police reporting and community reporting will get more specific. The last NZCVS one I've seen was 2021.

          NZCVS-LGB-Final.pdf (justice.govt.nz)

          • Molly 6.3.1.1.1

            "Perception of harm, better known as fear, is a pretty useful indicator of your place in the offending world."

            Is it, though?

            Surely there are justifiers missing there, such as "realistic" or indeed "justified" perception of harm.

            Otherwise, an unrealistic or unjustifiable perception of harm is given equal merit in consideration.

            • Sabine 6.3.1.1.1.1

              harm….. always in the eyes of the beholder, right?

              did you see this?

              https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/11/19/ministry-justice-officials-warned-talk-protecting-women-could/

              Thousands of officials were emailed for “transgender awareness week” and told it was “vital that we keep scaremongering and misinformation at bay”, with trans hate crimes up 56 per cent in a year.

              The email, marked “official sensitive” and sent this month through the HM Prison and Probation Service (HMPPS) diversity and inclusion team, has been leaked to The Telegraph.

              In order to “be an active ally”, staff were given a glossary titled “recognising transphobic coded language”, which contained 35 everyday phrases that it claimed were “turning what would be considered overt discrimination into covert behaviour”.

              ‘List of coded language’

              The list of “coded language” includes the phrase “gender critical”, which is used to refer to campaigners who believe biological sex is binary and immutable.

              However, the document claims it is a “self-selected label to denote holding anti-trans views, it’s a term used to make anti-trans discrimination sound palatable or a respectable opinion” and warns staff to look out for social media accounts that hold this view.

              Also listed is “protect women’s spaces/protecting women and girls”, which it says “relies on equating trans women with being predatory men, to play on unfounded fears and convince people that supporting trans inclusion threatens their safety”.

              The dossier claims that this “dog-whistle” relies on “selective information” including the case of Karen White, a rapist jailed for life in 2018 after attacking women in female prisons, as well as five sexual assaults by trans prisoners in female prisons over a decade.

              • Molly

                Yes, I did.

                "“protect women’s spaces/protecting women and girls”" is dogwhistle, huh?

                #NoImpact they lied.

                • weka

                  Seems like ground is being lost so quickly at the moment.

                  • Sabine

                    The ground was lost a long time ago, now they are just making it public for those that thought that there was still a ‘fight’ going on. And all the major parties agree to this, just like they all agree on hate speech laws and the likes.

                    • weka

                      in the UK that's not true. Case law has now established that GC beliefs are protected against discrimination. It appears where there is push back the genderist stuff falls (seems to be happening with the arresting people for tweets thing too). Public pressure is helping, more people are speaking up.

                      It will probably take another court case to test HMPPS policy and whether it is legal. These are not minimal gains, they are serious ones. It means that in the UK Judges ultimately get to decide what is fair and reasonable, not MPs.

                    • Sabine

                      Laws are only good if they are enforced by those that enforce the law.

                  • Sabine

                    I can think in English, German, French.

                    I can also speak English while having a German conversation with my relatives which always is quite funny as it takes some time to switch of. In essence they speak German, my brain understands it but my answers come in English and i did the same while living in France and visiting home.

                    But i am an easy learner of languages speaking and reading- but i can't write for the life of me in any language, that really demands effort and literally hurts my brain.

                    I also dream in German, English and French.

                    Edit: i do however not translate from German into English or French, i simply speak these languages with the vocabulary i have and am continuously adding new words to hat vocabulary.

                  • Sabine

                    Edit to my previous comment re thinking in a foreign language.

                    While the voice in my head speaks english – i don't consider myself as thinking.

                    If i were to live in full immersion of Te Reo i would soon enough speak Te Reo. With of course horrible grammar and all that, but i would be able to survive in a place where that would be the only language spoken. If that makes sense to you?

                    • weka

                      it does. You are fortunate to have that gift. I don't have the ear so have to learn the hard way.

                  • Sabine

                    This is it actually, i don't think the language i hear it. Language has a sound, ones the sound becomes familiar the sentences have beginnings and ends, the words suddenly jump out and you can literally see them as individuals. Advertising on telly is great for it as you have the action/product, the written word and the sound. Link the sound to the image of the word and the action / product so easy. My favorite TV show at the time a brilliant music telly production called Taratata with Nagui.

                    But the best tools for learning a language is a dictionary with phonetic writing in them, which i had for english. Hence why I have some abilities to communicate in the written word.

                    For your other discussion the word that i would have used -specially in that context would have been Whenua.

                • Sabine

                  #no impact – they lied.

                  No they did not. They never lied.

                  It is just us that thought that at least a few may care what happens to the non persons that birthed them, that are their offspring, that are their partners. And that these few may find some spine and guts and heart to fight for these things in their lives.

                  But i think the ones that will find this hardest to deal with these changes are those with education. The poor among us already know this and in many places live their life without dignity, safety and respect. And other then lip service nothing is paid to their plight. The difference between the Taliban in Afghanistan and the Taliban in England is simple. The one hides their property under a bedsheet for ‘protection’ the other erases every mention of their property in public records, removes the words that used to describe them, and pretends its progressive and good for all. The effects are the same.

                  And the educated PHD holding and sitting in Parliament Serena Joys of this world will learn it in due time, as will the dears in our political parties that still feel so progressive about their pronouns and daily linguistic incantations to affirm their loyalty to the cause.

                  I understand why young ones cut of their breast and inject anabolic steroids like it was a saline solution, it is their way out of this misery and hopefully be accorded the privilege of being male and thus granted a chance at a decent life.

                  We are now effectively back in the times were the word women did not appear in any legal texts, were women were incomplete men in the medical texts and washing hands was not something to expect from a doctor, were women are property to birth , clean and provide sexual services and other free of charge labour, were women are things to own, use and dispose of. And anyone even just daring to to feel conflicted about this shit is a phobe or sorts who hates men in skirts that go spinny.

                  The day men and some women thought that locking violent males in prison cells with women was progressive was the day women were thrown in the village pond to see if they float whilst tied to a chair.

                  One question that i have, is transgenderism a religion? And will that fall under the protection of the hate speech laws?

                  • Molly

                    Thanks Sabine.

                    Just when I think it couldn't get worse, this government promises to fast track hate speech legislation.

                    Many left wing and progressive people will support this because they have cultivated a habit of censure and shaming when challenged by disagreement. Add in a bit of sanctified victimhood, and the expectation of reasoned discussion is no longer necessary.
                    Who needs it when we all know what is hateful (and unkind)?

                    Shame, shame on those who might suggest opposing such legislation. Do they have no empathy for those who have a perception of fear?

                    https://www.police.govt.nz/advice-services/advice-victims/hate-crime

                    "A hate crime is an offence perceived by the victim, or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice towards a person’s race, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability or age.

                    A hate incident is an act perceived to be motivated by hate for these characteristics, but doesn’t meet the threshold of being considered a crime.

                    Hate crimes and hate incidents can encompass a broad range of acts, including threatening behaviour, harassment and verbal abuse, online abuse, criminal damage, assault and sexual violence.

                    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nz-has-high-female-murder-rate/I543VT6NW7UZRVBUSQ6AONJUCY/

                    Despite our high female murder rate, and non-existent transgender body count (long may it continue) – which protected characteristic from the Human Rights Act (1993) is missing (alongside marital status)? – and which is an inclusion of a characteristic that is not in the same Act?

                    Three guesses. (Though if you need more than one, don't bother.)

                    Given this current policy, how do you see this hate legislation shaping up, Sabine?

                    Because I'm thinking it's going to be horrendous.

                    Yes, yes… I hear the bell…

                    GIF – but not embedded:
                    https://external-preview.redd.it/Gb4_ryKNoxM7lfXoHx–EH67HYxsihzGeoybcXFIopQ.gif?format=mp4&s=c08132794602ed0054dd156ef4760eaf721a619e

                    • Sabine

                      how do i think it is progressing?

                      My dear, we shall meet in the ponds, on the stakes, scolded and shamed for daring to not be obedient property. As it was done in the past.

                    • weka []

                      Hey Sabine, for another conversation, can you think in both English and German?

                    • Molly

                      @Sabine

                      Thanks for the link. So many books, so little time…

                      "My dear, we shall meet in the ponds, on the stakes, scolded and shamed for daring to not be obedient property. As it was done in the past"

                      And people criticised women for lunching, when these alternatives remained ready and waiting…

                    • Sabine

                      Shaming us for having lunches is just the beginning. It all starts somewhere and it ends with us not having the right to define us, meet among ourselves and simply be.

                      the things that we are are to validate others, serve them, seen but never heard.

                      Which leaves this question -last raised sometime during the 1400 – are we actually human?

              • Molly

                Archived article for those who couldn't get past the paywall:

                https://archive.ph/sqpWm

                This tweet has the actual document in it:

                https://twitter.com/NoXYinXXprisons/status/1594111361692225537?s=20&t=UiJFZLNrNIrCvreDuZ8JlA

                Words not allowed to be meaningful or accurate.

                • Sabine

                  of course words can't have meaning …… that would be counteractive to the movement. Words mean what ever those in power mean at the time they state them. Humpty Dumpty is their best friend and inspiration.

        • SPC 6.3.1.2
          1. A reaction to finding out your sexual partner is not the sex you thought they were, leads to questions about:
          • sex by deception;
          • sexual consent;
          • and the right to have respected your sexual orientation.

          Are you arguing that there is no such thing as informed consent to having sex with a transgender person, if this is not known in advance?

          Or are you arguing that someone is having their sexual orientation compromised when they sleep someone who is transgender without knowing this in advance?

          Sex by deception – lies about background (marital/relationship status, fake dating site profiles) …

          • Molly 6.3.1.2.1

            I am inviting discussion on this issue.

            "Or are you arguing that someone is having their sexual orientation compromised when they sleep someone who is transgender without knowing this in advance?"

            At the very least – if that sexual orientation is known beforehand – there is a degree of disrespect, don't you think? For lesbians and gays the notion that their sexual orientation was due to the fact they just hadn't met the right "man" or "woman" was a battle seemingly won decades ago. How have we returned to this battleground?

            (IIRC, sex by deception includes non-disclosure of positive STD status as well.)

            There is only one case of successful prosecution of sexual assault in this scenario that I am aware of (in the UK):

            https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/29/gayle-newland-found-guilty-at-retrial-of-tricking-female-friend-into-sex

            AFAIK, Gayle did not identify as transgender so the discussion can be about the right of both parties to information before engaging in intimate acts.

            • Molly 6.3.1.2.1.1

              Successful prosecution regarding non-disclosure of HIV status:

              https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/331698/man-sentenced-after-knowingly-infecting-partner-with-hiv

              The charge was grievous bodily harm with reckless disregard:

              "Mikio Filitonga was found guilty by jury in March of a charge of grievous bodily harm with reckless disregard and in the Auckland District Court was sentenced to two years and 10 months in jail yesterday."

              I suspect the obligation for disclosure falls under public health regulations:

              "Filitonga tested positive for the virus on 27 February 2013.

              On 26 July that year he was told of his legal obligations as an HIV positive man by a nurse."

            • SPC 6.3.1.2.1.2

              In practice only informed consent as to public health (after instruction of a requirement to inform others of an infection) applies to date.

              … the UK case cited is truly outlier (given the person was willing to not see – be blindfolded – and wanted penetrative sex with a male partner), as conviction required belief that the victim did not recognise her best female friend (a lesbian) as the “male” she was dating.

              One wonders if long term relationships (between a transgender person and another) could later be posed as having been without informed consent, once they end. Bitter break-ups …

              • Molly

                "In practice only informed consent as to public health (after instruction of a requirement to inform others of an infection) applies to date."

                That distinction is made in the paper below, which has some other interesting considered scenarios, including some similar to after breakup dissatisfaction.

                The UK case is interesting, and is it a scenario that is more likely to occur with young people who are likely to be more compliant and uncertain in sexual relationships, or is it something else – or nothing else, just a one-off?

                It appears that the woman convicted was unable to acknowledge her same-sex orientation, so created a persona (NOT gender identity) in order to separate that orientation as a method of dealing with it.

                That can be understood.

                And the successful mechanics of subterfuge seems like something that may be interpreted as willful blindness.

                While that cannot be discounted, it must also be considered that the young woman who was convicted also became intimate friends with the woman who was misled, and would likely have influenced her to accept the conditions of contact and intimacy laid down by her male persona.

                So, it was a lengthy, and sustained level of deception which may not be duplicated again.

                However, the impact on the woman – who is heterosexual, upon discovering that her sexual partner was a female – was reported as significant. Her response indicates her level of distress.

          • Molly 6.3.1.2.2

            There's also a 2013 NZ specific paper on this topic that provides further points of discussion:

            https://www.otago.ac.nz/law/research/journals/otago065276.pdf

            They make a point about the distinction between informed consent in medicine, as opposed to informed consent in personal intimate relationships (P 14):

            2. ‘Informed’ consent to sexual activity

            ‘Informed consent’ is a concept commonly associated with medical law.
            50 Professor Skegg explains, generally: “while competent lawyers have long realised that not all apparent consents are effective in law, the use of the expression ‘informed consent’ does serve to remind all concerned that an uninformed consent may not suffice for a particular legal…purpose.”

            51 The Medical Council of New Zealand has described ‘informed consent’ as follows:

            52 Informed consent is an interactive process between a doctor and patient where the patient gains an understanding of his or her condition and receives an explanation of the options available including an assessment of the expected risks, side effects, benefits and costs of each option and thus is able to make an informed choice and give their informed consent.

            The difficulties in requiring that consent to sexual activity be ‘informed’ in this manner are readily apparent. Sexual relations are not engaged in on a detached doctor-patient type basis with duties of care and disclosure owed by one party to the other. The criminal law would be unworkable in practice if it required human passion and physical intimacy to be preceded by total disclosure or medical-level explanation by each party to the other of the risks, side effects, benefits and costs of that sexual activity.

            Nevertheless, a number of cases have said that consent to sexual activity must be “full, voluntary, free and informed”.

            53 Whether ‘informed’ consent goes beyond the need for a basic “understanding of the situation” is unclear,54 as the relevant cases show.

      • Anker 6.3.2

        What are the rates of violence against trans and non binary Ad? or don't we have them yet?

        We do have homicide figures and the rates of murder against trans or non binary are low compared to the rest of the population.

        Last murder of a transgender person was a cross dresser whose drug deal when wrong in or around 2009.

        BTW I condeme violence against anyone in the most whole hearted terms and believe protection from such, if it can be provided is paramount.

        • Ad 6.3.2.1

          I put the 2021 NZCVS in the above.

          NZCVS-LGB-Final.pdf (justice.govt.nz)

          "LGB adults are more than twice as likely to experience intimate partner violence (IPV) and/or sexual violence (68% of bisexual adults and 57% of lesbian or gay adults have experienced IPV and/or sexual violence) compared to the NZ average (29%) based on the NZCVS."

          I'd expect this will get more specific now that the categories are easier to self-identify.

          • Molly 6.3.2.1.1

            "I'd expect this will get more specific now that the categories are easier to self-identify."

            Why would that be more specific?

            Also, wouldn't there also be potential for loss of accuracy regarding violence statistics in regards to sex and sexual orientation if people can self-identify in and out of statistical groups?

            • Ad 6.3.2.1.1.1

              Easier to identify now that there's clearer legal identification.

              In answer to your second question: no it's so small it will statistically wrinse out.

              • Molly

                "In answer to your second question: no it's so small it will statistically wrinse out."

                Even if I agreed – which I don't – wouldn't that reasoning work both ways?

                • Ad

                  Let's wait and see but my suspicion is less than minor.

                  Coming up in March next year is the census, and it will be the first to ask everyone about their gender, sexual identity, and whether they have any variations of sex, getting straight to questions on ones':

                  • gender
                  • sexual identity (question only asked of people aged 15 years or older)
                  • variations of sex characteristics (question only asked of people aged 15 years or older).

                  They can't help but to a better job than last time.

                  • Molly

                    "They can't help but to a better job than last time."

                    A better job in what respect?

                    Giving someone an opportunity to declare an identity?

                    And/or gathering accurate and useful data in terms of identifying effective means to reduce violence?

                    ie. The gender question is now ambiguous.

                    Does it refer to sex or gender identity? Even if intended for one or the other, will it be answered consistently? If that cannot be assumed, accuracy is already compromised.

                    "variations of sex characteristics "

                    Also self-subjective, so not particularly useful in quantitive analysis.

                    I do agree that good quality data is necessary, however, I am not reassured it will be achieved.

                    • Molly

                      Sorry, just realised that we've moved onto the census, rather than the surveys initially discussed, in which case the reference to violence is limited.

                      The rest in regards to accuracy in terms of analysis, and effective use remains.

                    • Visubversa

                      Do they have a definition of these "variation of sex characteristics" or are they lumping people with Differences or Variations of Sex Development – which are medical conditions (used to be called "Intersex") in with sexuality and/or gender identity? Unfortunately, these 40 or so known syndromes have been weaponised by gender idealogues in an attempt to prove that sex is some sort of spectrum. It provides no such evidence in that those that are fertile – and many are not- produce either sperm or eggs so do not create additional sexes and certainly do not change sex. It is just more idealogical obfuscation which seems to have been swallowed wholesale by lawmakers.

                    • RedLogix

                      Personally I keep thinking that the recent proliferation of endocrine disruptors from all plastics, pesticides and soy based food sources may well have something to do with all of this.

                      https://www.niehs.nih.gov/health/topics/agents/endocrine/index.cfm

                    • Molly

                      @RedLogix

                      Endocrine disruption is an interesting area. Since reading Rachel Carson's Silent Spring, I think that determining if there is an environmental factor is always a question that should be answered.

                      I do think that around this topic of gender identity other factors come into play, especially taking into account the ever expanding notion of what falls under this umbrella. (eg. Drag Queens ) and the Q+ coterie.

                      Starting point will be the old-school transsexuals, so distress due to dysphoria will still be a part. But it is a small part now, and nowhere near the whole. (NB. Current gender ideology considers that expecting distress and even a dysphoria/gender incongruence diagnosis is transphobic).

                      After looking at many sources, including from those who identify as transgender, I think there are a multitude of different routes to self-identification.

                      Identifying the most common, and the demographic of who travels each path is important.

                      Despite the collective moniker, the starting points, journeys and destinations are often markedly different.

                    • RedLogix

                      @Molly

                      Yes – I was not suggesting that widespread endocrine disruption was the sole driving factor here – but I get the sense it has been rather overshadowed by the far more visible and noisier cultural debate.

                      And as an engineer my mind naturally gravitates toward possible root causes.

                      Among the many disastrous mistakes of the medical community it is the often overlooked DES debacle:

                      Diethylstilboestrol (DES) was a medication commonly prescribed to prevent miscarriage, between 1946 and 1971 in Australia. If your mother took DES while she was pregnant with you, then you are a DES daughter or DES son. We now know that DES exposure in the womb can cause a range of reproductive changes and fertility problems later in life.

                      Oestrogen is one of the female sex hormones that regulates the menstrual cycle. DES was a synthetic oestrogen medication, sold under many different brand names.

                      Doctors and obstetricians commonly prescribed DES to women who had fertility problems or who were at risk of miscarriage, usually as a pill. Sometimes, doctors gave the medication along with vitamin supplements and some women may not have realised they were taking any medications.

                      Anyone who was exposed to DES needs special healthcare, even if they are not having any obvious health problems.

                      While DES turned out to be a remarkably powerful disruptor, many of the chemicals listed in my reference in my first comment are rather similar especially Bisphenol A (BPA) – in its estrogen like behaviour:

                      In the early 1930s, the British biochemist Edward Charles Dodds tested BPA as an artificial estrogen, but found it to be 37,000 times less effective than estradiol. Dodds eventually developed a structurally similar compound,(DES), which was used as a synthetic estrogen drug in women and animals until it was banned due to its risk of causing cancer; the ban on use of DES in humans came in 1971 and in animals, in 1979. BPA was never used as a drug. BPA's ability to mimic the effects of natural estrogen derives from the similarity of phenol groups on both BPA and estradiol, which enable this synthetic molecule to trigger estrogenic pathways in the body. Typically phenol-containing molecules similar to BPA are known to exert weak estrogenic activities, thus it is also considered an endocrine disrupter (ED) and estrogenic chemical.

                      Xenoestrogens is another category the chemical BPA fits under because of its capability to interrupt the network that regulates the signals which control the reproductive development in humans and animals.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_Bisphenol_A

                      BPA is almost ubiquitous in our environment and while it is mostly chemically bound to other components, small amounts of it inevitably hydrolyse and become biologically available.

                      All this is subject to some degree of controversy among the specialist community – but frankly I would be very keen to see this issue get more political visibility. There are much wider implications around human fertility than just the trans debate we are having here.

                    • Molly

                      @RedLogix

                      The fertility issue is huge – and one I occasionally spend time on. I think the factors you have listed are unfortunately only two entries in a long list. The DES, I'd come across before. Of interest is the sentence that follows advice on medical vigilance:

                      • There is no evidence that the third generation is affected by DES exposure.

                      I'd add: as yet.

                      BPA is a concern, which has led to old school personal preferences for food a drink storage, although it can't fully be avoided.

                      Small amounts are enough to have significant impacts on the endocrine system.

                      Recently, are acknowledging long-term health impacts from the contraceptive pill.

                      The interference of the endocrine system that is labelled affirming healthcare is not informed by robust clinical evidence. That fact should concern everyone regardless of perspective.

                  • Sabine

                    Gender – is that sex – large gamete vs small gamete?

                    Sexual identity – is that based on gender or sexual attraction? There is a huge difference between 'same gender' attraction or 'same sex' attraction.

                    i.e.

                    transwomen – transwomen = lesbian = same gender attraction

                    transwomen – female = lesbian = same gender attraction

                    human female – female = lesbian = same gender attraction

                    transman + female = hetero = opposite gender attraction

                    transwoman + male = hetero = opposite gender attraction

                    male – female – hetero= opposite gender attraction

                    transman + male = gay = same gender attraction

                    transman + transman = gay -= same gender attraction

                    male + male = gay = same gender attraction

                    Glossary:

                    Transwomen – male presenting as a female

                    Transman – female presenting as male

                    male – adult human male – standard edition

                    female – adult human female – standard edition

                    Non binary – everyone who can't be bothered really playing the game but wants some of that transcred cause being male/female is so boring and cis. 🙂

                    You can now fill forms out in which you can be "other".

                    And thus, the male that got locked into a female prisons for a short stay of 9 years and a few month for going into into a restaurant on a stabbing spree stabbing two and slashing the face of of his ex is a women crime and a women on women crime and everyone will have to pretend to have been assaulted by a 'woman'. She/her and all that stubble and jazz.

                    I mean if you want to devalue accurate record keeping about the countries population growth, future population growths, about crime, and such that is the way to go.

                    We might as well be counting sheep and declaring them cows.

                    • Molly

                      "We might as well be counting sheep and declaring them cows."

                      Wool and dairy forecasts may be a bit off …laugh

          • Anker 6.3.2.1.2

            I knew about the higher rates of intimate partner violence amongst lesbian couples.

            That was one of the surprising findings to come out of the fabulous Dunedin Multidiscliplinary Study. I have searched that study to see what if anything they have found out about transgender people and to date have found nothing. Suspect that is to do with the cohorts age group (pre gender ideology and queer theory taking hold) and also because the cohort is around 1000, just not enough numbers

        • Visubversa 6.3.2.2

          And don't forget Toko Shane Winter (who demands to be called Ashley) who was convicted for the sadistic torture and murder of a young woman in 2019. The NZ media showered him with female pronouns and called him a woman several times right throughout his trial, conviction and sentencing for this crime. They had become a bit more balanced when it came to reporting his unsuccessful appeal.

      • Anker 6.3.3

        The govt spening money on gender affirming care is highly problematic and may lead to some of the situations overseas, for example the gender clinic at the Tavistock Clinic in London. After senior paedeatrian Dr Hillary Cass was half way through her review she ordered the clinic be closed due to safety concerns. A highly unsual move for an NHS trust.

        The concerns were around the use of puberty blockers, automatic affirmation of gender identity and the lack of a comprehensive assessment for youngster who most often had significant co-morbidities with their gender dysphoria. The Tavistock is also facing a significant class action taken by families and patients who have been damaged by this approach.

        But if you want to sing the praises of this govt for going down this dubious pathway, then don't let me stop you.

        Remember that prior to 1990s the rates of transgender people was something like one in thirty thousand. Teen girls where almost unheard of in the early days of the Tavistock clinic. Then around the time of the invention of the smart phone there was an exponential growith in teen girls presenting to gender clinics. Many of them had been exposed to trans information in chat rooms. Social contagian if very common in adolescent girls. We have seen it with girls with anoerexia, bulimia, self harm and now gender dysphoria. The govt in endorsing gender affirming care , is endorsing the wrong approach for these troubled youngsters

    • Temp ORary 6.4

      Just finishing lunchtime and glanced back at this site. Too many responses to reply to now, I will get onto that this evening if I have the energy.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 6.5

      "I don't comment much on this site anymore; given the suffocating transphobia that I find it healthier to avoid subjecting myself to."

      As those prone to racism, misogyny and homophobia carve out niches on social media to support their ideas, an easy path is not to engage with that toxicity. Good on you Temp ORary for having the courage to state that you feel you have encountered "suffocating transphobia" here. Hope it's OK to post links in response. Kia kaha.

      Hate speech debate overshadows Royal Commission progress [2 Nov 2022]
      The last thing communities under siege from hate speech want is a repeat of last year.

      Our children are watching and learning as hate and disinformation are normalized.

      Reported User-Generated Online Hate Speech: The ‘Ecosystem’, Frames, and Ideologies [19 Aug 2022]

      The Supported Counterspeech Alternative

      The central role of empathy in reducing exclusionary behaviour is an interesting observation – several online questionaires are available for assessing empathy.

      Dynamics of online hate and misinformation [11 Nov 2021]
      Our results show that, coherently with Godwin’s law, online debates tend to degenerate towards increasingly toxic exchanges of views.

      Sentiment Analysis Scale

      • LEVEL 1, disagreement – Speech involving disagreement with a particular idea or statement. It seeks to challenge the claims, ideas, and beliefs of the addressee in an offensive and intolerant manner.
      • LEVEL 2, negative actions and reactions– Direct insult or verbal attack against the one to whom the hate speech and intolerance refer to
      • LEVEL 3, negative characterization – Speech involving negative non-violent actions related to the group to which it is addressed, followed by stereotyping, belittling, ridicule or public stigmatization.
      • LEVEL 4, demonizing and dehumanizing – Speech that includes qualifications for the other as the embodiment of a certain evil, inhumanity, and assigning a subhuman status to entire groups in society.
      • LEVEL 5, incitement to violence – Speech that calls for physical harm and specifies ways of violent behavior.
      • LEVEL 6, death – Speech that makes explicit calls for killing or physical elimination.

      Gay hate speech case in court as review of law announced [31 Oct 2022]
      My view on homo marriage is that the Bible never mentions it so I’m not against them getting married … As long as a bullet goes through their head the moment they kiss,” the pastor said.

      Hate speech in Aotearoa New Zealand: Reflecting and resisting
      [18 June 2022]
      In the month since our paper was released, dangerous speech increased significantly. Violent, vulgar and vicious discourse against public figures, such as the Prime Minister, MPs who are women, academics, journalists, and other senior public officials continues to grow, with increasingly graphic and violent content. Threats of death, rape, and intense violence are now commonplace – and daily – within the domestic online ecologies studied by The Disinformation Project. Such discourses are intertwined with misogyny, queerphobia, racism, xenophobia, anti-Semitism, and ableism. These discourses focus on, seek to amplify, and entrench differences, rather than notions of cohesion and shared identity. Instead of focussing on what binds us together, mis- and disinformation producers are increasingly highlighting difference, and the antagonistic negotiation of it.

      • Molly 6.5.1

        "Good on you Temp ORary for having the courage to state that you feel you have encountered "suffocating transphobia" here."

        I believe what would be truly admirable, is when someone who makes this accusation actually posts examples of it.

        "Hate speech debate overshadows Royal Commission progress [2 Nov 2022]
        The last thing communities under siege from hate speech want is a repeat of last year."

        Is this what you are referring to? – the successful prosecution of Richard Jacobs:

        "New Zealand has laws against hate speech but they only apply to discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity or national origin. The letter of the law is so broad that courts have adopted a much narrower interpretation since it was passed in 1993, meaning only a single successful prosecution for hate speech has occurred in the past 29 years. That case was last year, when Tauranga man Richard Jacobs posted a YouTube video calling for genocide and a race war against Māori."

        If it is, I'm going to make an assumption (correct me if I am wrong) that you do not disagree with either the prosecution or the success.

        So, is it that you wish that more prosecutions take place?

        1. Because many others are calling for genocide on the basis of a protected characteristic?

        2. Because the level of genocide is too high a bar for hate speech, and you want that determinator to be something else? What do you propose?

        Your links to Canada etc are unexceptional, particularly given that Canada is justifying a lot of atrocities in the name of progression these days. A trial currently is taking place for a nurse in regards to her speech:

        https://en.protothema.gr/nurse-amy-hamm-fights-for-sex-based-freedom-of-expression-today-in-court/

        Is this Canadian distinction the one you seek to emulate here in NZ?

        As for the domestic The Disinformation Project – is it truly possible that there are those on the left that do not recognise The Ministry of Truth when it lands on our shores?

        • Molly 6.5.1.1

          Re the current court case, it will be informative to have written and recorded the police's decision not to prosecute and why, and the judgement:

          "Timmins was backing the case of Auckland man Russell Hoban against the attorney-general about a West Auckland pastor’s sermon, posted on Facebook in April 2017, that called for gay people to be shot. Timmins described the pastor as “self-titled” and said the sermon was recorded in the man’s lounge.

          “My view on homo marriage is that the Bible never mentions it so I’m not against them getting married … As long as a bullet goes through their head the moment they kiss,” the pastor said.

          No charges were laid for inciting violence against gay people."

          Left the links in because they are necessary for those who haven't read the article.

          • SPC 6.5.1.1.1

            Given the obvious incitement to violence against those practicing homosexuality (as indicated by a marriage), the police failure to prosecute would seem inexplicable. Might be a next time we will warning case …

            Generally most people would oppose threats of violence to individuals or groups of individuals (race, ethnicity, origin and extend that to sex, gender, sexuality, religion).

            The question would be around incitement to violence (such violence being a hate crime) and then onto hate itself.

            • Molly 6.5.1.1.1.1

              Given that they were successful in prosecuting Richard Jacobs, above, I think it's really important to show how they made that decision.

              There is not enough details in the article, that perhaps the published decision will provide.

              I suspect the Jacobs case was easily identified as a call for genocide: "calling for genocide and a race war against Māori." whereas the Timmins case was related not to a call for genocide because of homosexuality, but the self-declared pastor's response to the acceptance of gay marriage. A small difference, but it should be clarified if this is the interpretation.

  6. Sabine 7

    Well i guess these colonial and societal construct are just getting their deserved come uppance being locked up with a male offender who stabbed three people – one of them the ex of the offender who stabbed the colonial and societal construct in the lungs and slashed the face.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/130471744/restaurant-triple-stabber-jailed-for-nine-years-and-three-months

    Lets all feel ashamed for thinking that this is wrong.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ReduxxMag/status/1592581398787133440

    • Anker 7.1

      brilliant Sabine

    • Molly 7.2

      Perhaps a "reflective circle" is required – such as the one a young high-school student had to attend when she challenged the presence of a boy in the girls changing room:

      https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11366041/amp/School-let-trans-girl-making-threats-girl-complained-using-girls-bathroom.html

      "It also claims that the school turned a blind eye to ‘death threats’ made against Blake by the transgender student, who said after the locker room incident ‘I’m going to f***ing kill Blake Allen’.

      They are said to have been selective in their discipline, despite suspending Blake for two days for 'misgendering' the student, then ordering her to take part in a 'reflective circle' where she returned.

      That saw equity coordinator Jamie Connor and other students attempt to brainwash Blake into seeing the error of her ways, it is alleged. "

      I'm sure there are a few on here that would enjoy the get-together – I mean the opportunity to "reflect".

      The only difficulty I can see would be to find someone to volunteer as " equity coordinator" for the aforementioned shameful ones…wink

      • Anker 7.2.1

        Christ! The reflective circle. I happen to be re-reading 1984 at the moment.

        Yes let this young woman experience the reflective circle. We must eradicate wrong think!

        In my life time it has taken so much work (by other women) to tell women and girls they can trust their instincts and if they speak up they will be heard

      • SPC 7.2.2

        That might explain the black mirror (TV series name) as to be being enlightened in such a circle, as to agreeing with the group opinion.

  7. Alan 8

    According to the Herald today, Winston Peters for the first time ever in his political career, is ruling out working with two parties prior to the election – bold move. (Premium content so have not attached)

    Judging by some of the comments on this blog, this could be a clever tactic.

    • Incognito 8.1

      It doesn’t matter if it is ‘premium content’ or not, you should still provide a link for verification for and by others, preferably with a note/warning about it being behind a paywall or subscription-only.

    • Anker 8.2

      Do you know Alan, is Winston saying he won't go with Labour or the Greens?

      Wonder if it was hiding He puapua from him before the last election or Trev tresspassin g him that did it. But actually maybe I am wrong, perhaps he is happy to go with L and G and it is some other party he's ruling out. Opps just seen from the headline its Labour plus???

      • Alan 8.2.1

        L and MP

      • Sabine 8.2.2

        from the link

        To double-check whether there was any wriggle room in his position on Labour, he is asked if he is ruling out working with a Jacinda Ardern-led Government.

        “Most definitely,” he says and he reflects on his previous two stints in government, first with National and with the fifth Labour Government, which he described as trusted relationships.

        “When I shook hands with Jim Bolger and Helen Clark, ask them whether I could be trusted. When I shake someone’s hand, and they deliberately mislead me and my caucus, who are a critical part of a coalition, they don’t get a second chance to do that again.

        “I regret that. It’s sad that it has happened but those are the facts and they cannot deny it.

    • SPC 8.3

      (based on not having read anything paywalled at the Herald)

      Not actually true – he has until now ruled out being in a coalition with either ACT and Greens.

      Thus campaigning as the centrist partner of either National or Labour (reducing ACT and Greens as support partner of one coalition or the other).

      He intends to campaign like he did in 1996, against the government. But in this case rules out forming a coalition afterwards.

      The option he proffers is National on the right (taking votes off ACT) and NZ First (taking votes Labour won off National in 2020) in the centre.

      In dividing against Labour and MP he is making fear of "He Puapua" (indigenous peoples rights and Treaty partnership concepts) front and centre of a "majoritarian democracy" alliance between National and NZF (nostalgia for the simplicity of the pavlova paradise assimilationist age baby boomers were raised up in – as per the Brexit vote in the UK). Winston is doing a Boris.

      In not excluding ACT or Greens, Peters leaves open a competition between them to be the support partner to a National-NZF coalition if that is required.

      His technical difficulty – he will struggle to gain as many votes in the centre as he might want/need if he does not rule out a coalition including ACT. And ACT could rule out supporting a National-NZF coalition if they were not included.

    • observer 8.4

      Winston Peters for the first time ever in his political career

      His language directed at Bolger and National before 1996 was even stronger than his criticism of Ardern. It meant nothing.

      But let's face it, we've had this dance many times before, and in the end it comes down to the same old question: do we learn from experience or not? Note the language used: "rule out" … "work with" … To quote Game Of Thrones … "words are wind".

      2023 Winston: "I did not say that, you in the media always get it wrong", etc, etc.

      When he writes a legally-binding document with affidavit that says "I refuse to be Deputy PM or Foreign Minister or take any role in government offered by Labour even if they offer it and National don't … also, here is my bond of a million dollars which I will forfeit if I break this promise" – then it'll mean something.

      Until then, Winston gonna Winston. Fools gonna believe.

      • Incognito 8.4.1

        I prefer Seymour’s twerking to Winston’s Tango For One, by, for, and with Winston. Winston goes for the sentimental value of nostalgia and glory days of the past that never really were. Trotter will love it.

      • observer 8.4.2

        Winston Peters' speech, before 2005 election:

        "We are in this for our policies – not the perks of office. …

        Now the voters know New Zealand First will not be in government – by our own choice – they also deserve to know that we intend to serve New Zealanders, as we always have, by keeping the next government honest.

        … It involves for my colleagues a real sacrifice, but we willingly make it. For my part, I never took as deputy Prime Minister ministerial cars or a house, so we genuinely don’t care about the baubles of office."

        https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0509/S00180.htm

        (and so after the election, he became Helen Clark's Foreign Minister, and took other portfolios too).

  8. Ad 9

    A big shoutout to the Capital Kiwi Project for reaching their conservation milestone of releasing 250 Kiwi onto 23,000 hectares of mostly private land in the Wellington region.

    In particular to the landowners of the big Terawhiti block, Kinnoull, Meridian, Mill Creek Farms, Papanui Boomrock, Pikarere, many of which have been in families for generations.

    Kiwi to call the capital home as huge conservation project comes to fruition | Stuff.co.nz

    This is a private protected area larger than Abel Tasman National Park. This kind of project takes years and years to do, so also well done to all the Trustees in particular previous Mayor Kerry Prendergast.

  9. Ad 10

    Latest New Zealand deprivation index is out.

    Check out the sea of red in Auckland's west and south. Anywhere east of Tauranga. Most of the West Coast.

    New Zealand Index of Deprivation, 2018 (NZDep2018) (arcgis.com)

    This is tough reading when compared against the previous ones.

    • ianmac 10.1

      Interesting Ad. Though those figures up to 2018. Areas gone redder 2013 to 2018. Not sure if that is meaningful?

    • weka 10.2

      be good to see a post on this, esp with the comparison.

      Is the upper West Coast related to the floods of recent years, or have they exacerbated an already dire situation?

      Western Southland is interesting too.

  10. Poission 11

    First extreme cold event of the season starts in US with Buffalo hit by snow lake effect and 4 foot falls,due to ridging event in Alaska.

    NE US will be susceptible to energy outages (as a number of other loc) during prolonged weather events.NE very marginal due to reliance on fuel oil/LNG and Diesel with high cost burdens.

    https://twitter.com/SStapczynski/status/1593466063437471745

    https://twitter.com/NWSBUFFALO/status/1593422519297445888?cxt=HHwWgMCo_djV_JwsAAAA

  11. SPC 12

    Given most of the human beings receiving puberty blockers are females and most of the teens receiving gender related surgery are female (breast removal), it is not surprising people are relating this to girls being tomboys, puberty transformation struggles and teenage female body image issues rather than to an actual greater gender issue for females than for those born male at those ages.

    This would explain the move of late Sweden and onto UK (and now in the USA) to less physiological and more psychological intervention. The do no harm approach then follows the approach of counsellors as to teens and sexuality, not to rush to identify but offer affirmative support to their personal development and understanding over time.

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    It hardly strikes me as fair to criticise a government for doing exactly what it said it was going to do. For actually keeping its promises.”THUNDER WAS PLAYING TAG with lightning flashes amongst the distant peaks. Its rolling cadences interrupted by the here-I-come-here-I-go Doppler effect of the occasional passing car. ...
    3 days ago
  • Manufacturing The Truth.
    Subversive & Disruptive Technologies: Just as happened with that other great regulator of the masses, the Medieval Church, the advent of a new and hard-to-control technology – the Internet –  is weakening the ties that bind. Then, and now, those who enjoy a monopoly on the dissemination of lies, cannot and will ...
    3 days ago
  • A Powerful Sensation of Déjà Vu.
    Been Here Before: To find the precedents for what this Coalition Government is proposing, it is necessary to return to the “glory days” of Muldoonism.THE COALITION GOVERNMENT has celebrated its first 100 days in office by checking-off the last of its listed commitments. It remains, however, an angry government. It ...
    3 days ago
  • Can you guess where world attention is focussed (according to Greenpeace)? It’s focussed on an EPA...
    Bob Edlin writes –  And what is the world watching today…? The email newsletter from Associated Press which landed in our mailbox early this morning advised: In the news today: The father of a school shooter has been found guilty of involuntary manslaughter; prosecutors in Trump’s hush-money case ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    3 days ago
  • Further integrity problems for the Greens in suspending MP Darleen Tana
    Bryce Edwards writes – Is another Green MP on their way out? And are the Greens severely tarnished by another integrity scandal? For the second time in three months, the Green Party has secretly suspended an MP over integrity issues. Mystery is surrounding the party’s decision to ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    4 days ago
  • Jacqui Van Der Kaay: Greens’ transparency missing in action
    For the last few years, the Green Party has been the party that has managed to avoid the plague of multiple scandals that have beleaguered other political parties. It appears that their luck has run out with a second scandal which, unfortunately for them, coincided with Golraz Ghahraman, the focus ...
    Democracy ProjectBy bryce.edwards
    4 days ago
  • Bernard’s Dawn Chorus with six newsey things at 6:46am for Saturday, March 16
    TL;DR: The six newsey things that stood out to me as of 6:46am on Saturday, March 16.Andy Foster has accidentally allowed a Labour/Green amendment to cut road user chargers for plug-in hybrid vehicles, which the Government might accept; NZ Herald Thomas Coughlan Simeon Brown has rejected a plea from Westport ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • How Did FTX Crash?
    What seemed a booming success a couple of years ago has collapsed into fraud convictions.I looked at the crash of FTX (short for ‘Futures Exchange’) in November 2022 to see whether it would impact on the financial system as a whole. Fortunately there was barely a ripple, probably because it ...
    PunditBy Brian Easton
    4 days ago
  • Elections in Russia and Ukraine
    Anybody following the situation in Ukraine and Russia would probably have been amused by a recent Tweet on X NATO seems to be putting in an awful lot of effort to influence what is, at least according to them, a sham election in an autocracy.When do the Ukrainians go to ...
    4 days ago
  • Bernard’s six stack of substacks at 6pm on March 15
    TL;DR: Shaun Baker on Wynyard Quarter's transformation. Magdalene Taylor on the problem with smart phones. How private equity are now all over reinsurance. Dylan Cleaver on rugby and CTE. Emily Atkin on ‘Big Meat’ looking like ‘Big Oil’.Bernard’s six-stack of substacks at 6pm on March 15Photo by Jeppe Hove Jensen ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    4 days ago
  • Buzz from the Beehive Finance Minister Nicola Willis had plenty to say when addressing the Auckland Business Chamber on the economic growth that (she tells us) is flagging more than we thought. But the government intends to put new life into it:  We want our country to be a ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    4 days ago
  • National’s clean car tax advances
    The Transport and Infrastructure Committee has reported back on the Road User Charges (Light Electric RUC Vehicles) Amendment Bill, basicly rubberstamping it. While there was widespread support among submitters for the principle that EV and PHEV drivers should pay their fair share for the roads, they also overwhelmingly disagreed with ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Government funding bailouts
    Peter Dunne writes – This week’s government bailout – the fifth in the last eighteen months – of the financially troubled Ruapehu Alpine Lifts company would have pleased many in the central North Island ski industry. The government’s stated rationale for the $7 million funding was that it ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    4 days ago
  • Two offenders, different treatments.
    See if you can spot the difference. An Iranian born female MP from a progressive party is accused of serial shoplifting. Her name is leaked to the media, which goes into a pack frenzy even before the Police launch an … Continue reading ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    4 days ago
  • Treaty references omitted
    Ele Ludemann writes  – The government is omitting general Treaty references from legislation : The growth of Treaty of Waitangi clauses in legislation caused so much worry that a special oversight group was set up by the last Government in a bid to get greater coherence in the public service on Treaty ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    4 days ago
  • The Ghahraman Conflict
    What was that judge thinking? Peter Williams writes –  That Golriz Ghahraman and District Court Judge Maria Pecotic were once lawyer colleagues is incontrovertible. There is published evidence that they took at least one case to the Court of Appeal together. There was a report on ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    4 days ago
  • Bernard's Top 10 @ 10 'pick 'n' mix' for March 15
    TL;DR: My top 10 news and analysis links this morning include:Today’s must-read: Climate Scorpion – the sting is in the tail. Introducing planetary solvency. A paper via the University of Exeter’s Institute and Faculty of Actuaries.Local scoop: Kāinga Ora starts pulling out of its Auckland projects and selling land RNZ ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • The day Wellington up-zoned its future
    Wellington’s massively upzoned District Plan adds the opportunity for tens of thousands of new homes not just in the central city (such as these Webb St new builds) but also close to the CBD and public transport links. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: Wellington gave itself the chance of ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • Weekly Roundup 15-March-2024
    It’s Friday and we’re halfway through March Madness. Here’s some of the things that caught our attention this week. This Week in Greater Auckland On Monday Matt asked how we can get better event trains and an option for grade separating Morningside Dr. On Tuesday Matt looked into ...
    Greater AucklandBy Greater Auckland
    5 days ago
  • That Word.
    Something you might not know about me is that I’m quite a stubborn person. No, really. I don’t much care for criticism I think’s unfair or that I disagree with. Few of us do I suppose.Back when I was a drinker I’d sometimes respond defensively, even angrily. There are things ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    5 days ago
  • The Hoon around the week to March 15
    Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The five things that mattered in Aotearoa’s political economy that we wrote and spoke about via The Kākā and elsewhere for paying subscribers in the last week included:PM Christopher Luxon said the reversal of interest deductibility for landlords was done to help renters, who ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • Labour’s policy gap
    It was not so much the Labour Party but really the Chris Hipkins party yesterday at Labour’s caucus retreat in Martinborough. The former Prime Minister was more or less consistent on wealth tax, which he was at best equivocal about, and social insurance, which he was not willing to revisit. ...
    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    5 days ago
  • Skeptical Science New Research for Week #11 2024
    Open access notables A Glimpse into the Future: The 2023 Ocean Temperature and Sea Ice Extremes in the Context of Longer-Term Climate Change, Kuhlbrodt et al., Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society: In the year 2023, we have seen extraordinary extrema in high sea surface temperature (SST) in the North Atlantic and in ...
    5 days ago
  • Melissa remains mute on media matters but has something to say (at a sporting event) about economic ...
     Buzz from the Beehive   The text reproduced above appears on a page which records all the media statements and speeches posted on the government’s official website by Melissa Lee as Minister of Media and Communications and/or by Jenny Marcroft, her Parliamentary Under-secretary.  It can be quickly analysed ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    5 days ago
  • The return of Muldoon
    For forty years, Robert Muldoon has been a dirty word in our politics. His style of government was so repulsive and authoritarian that the backlash to it helped set and entrench our constitutional norms. His pig-headedness over forcing through Think Big eventually gave us the RMA, with its participation and ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Will the rental tax cut improve life for renters or landlords?
    Bryce Edwards writes –  Is the new government reducing tax on rental properties to benefit landlords or to cut the cost of rents? That’s the big question this week, after Associate Finance Minister David Seymour announced on Sunday that the Government would be reversing the Labour Government’s removal ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • Geoffrey Miller: What Saudi Arabia’s rapid changes mean for New Zealand
    Saudi Arabia is rarely far from the international spotlight. The war in Gaza has brought new scrutiny to Saudi plans to normalise relations with Israel, while the fifth anniversary of the controversial killing of Jamal Khashoggi was marked shortly before the war began on October 7. And as the home ...
    Democracy ProjectBy Geoffrey Miller
    5 days ago
  • Racism’s double standards
    Questions need to be asked on both sides of the world Peter Williams writes –   The NRL Judiciary hands down an eight week suspension to Sydney Roosters forward Spencer Leniu , an Auckland-born Samoan, after he calls Ezra Mam, Sydney-orn but of Aboriginal and Torres Strait ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • It’s not a tax break
    Ele Ludemann writes – Contrary to what many headlines and news stories are saying, residential landlords are not getting a tax break. The government is simply restoring to them the tax deductibility of interest they had until the previous government removed it. There is no logical reason ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • The Plastic Pig Collective and Chris' Imaginary Friends.
    I can't remember when it was goodMoments of happiness in bloomMaybe I just misunderstoodAll of the love we left behindWatching our flashbacks intertwineMemories I will never findIn spite of whatever you becomeForget that reckless thing turned onI think our lives have just begunI think our lives have just begunDoes anyone ...
    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    5 days ago
  • Who is responsible for young offenders?
    Michael Bassett writes – At first reading, a front-page story in the New Zealand Herald on 13 March was bizarre. A group of severely intellectually limited teenagers, with little understanding of the law, have been pleading to the Justice Select Committee not to pass a bill dealing with ram ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • Gordon Campbell on National’s fantasy trip to La La Landlord Land
    How much political capital is Christopher Luxon willing to burn through in order to deliver his $2.9 billion gift to landlords? Evidently, Luxon is: (a) unable to cost the policy accurately. As Anna Burns-Francis pointed out to him on Breakfast TV, the original ”rock solid” $2.1 billion cost he was ...
    6 days ago
  • Bernard's Top 10 @ 10 'pick 'n' mix' for March 14
    TL;DR: My top 10 news and analysis links this morning include:Today’s must-read: Jonathon Porritt calling bullshit in his own blog post on mainstream climate science as ‘The New Denialism’.Local scoop: The Wellington City Council’s list of proposed changes to the IHP recommendations to be debated later today was leaked this ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago
  • No, Prime Minister, rents don’t rise or fall with landlords’ costs
    TL;DR: Prime Minister Christopher Luxon said yesterday tenants should be grateful for the reinstatement of interest deductibility because landlords would pass on their lower tax costs in the form of lower rents. That would be true if landlords were regulated monopolies such as Transpower or Auckland Airport1, but they’re not, ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    6 days ago
  • Cartoons: ‘At least I didn’t make things awkward’
    This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Tom Toro Tom Toro is a cartoonist and author. He has published over 200 cartoons in The New Yorker since 2010. His cartoons appear in Playboy, the Paris Review, the New York Times, American Bystander, and elsewhere. Related: What 10 EV lovers ...
    6 days ago
  • Solving traffic congestion with Richard Prebble
    The business section of the NZ Herald is full of opinion. Among the more opinionated of all is the ex-Minister of Transport, ex-Minister of Railways, ex MP for Auckland Central (1975-93, Labour), Wellington Central (1996-99, ACT, then list-2005), ex-leader of the ACT Party, uncle to actor Antonia, the veritable granddaddy ...
    Greater AucklandBy Patrick Reynolds
    6 days ago
  • I Think I'm Done Flying Boeing
    Hi,Just quickly — I’m blown away by the stories you’ve shared with me over the last week since I put out the ‘Gary’ podcast, where I told you about the time my friend’s flatmate killed the neighbour.And you keep telling me stories — in the comments section, and in my ...
    David FarrierBy David Farrier
    6 days ago
  • Invoking Aristotle: Of Rings of Power, Stones, and Ships
    The first season of Rings of Power was not awful. It was thoroughly underwhelming, yes, and left a lingering sense of disappointment, but it was more expensive mediocrity than catastrophe. I wrote at length about the series as it came out (see the Review section of the blog, and go ...
    6 days ago
  • Van Velden brings free-market approach to changing labour laws – but her colleagues stick to distr...
    Buzz from the Beehive Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brooke van Velden told Auckland Business Chamber members they were the first audience to hear her priorities as a minister in a government committed to cutting red tape and regulations. She brandished her liberalising credentials, saying Flexible labour markets are the ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    6 days ago
  • Why Newshub failed
    Chris Trotter writes – TO UNDERSTAND WHY NEWSHUB FAILED, it is necessary to understand how TVNZ changed. Up until 1989, the state broadcaster had been funded by a broadcasting licence fee, collected from every citizen in possession of a television set, supplemented by a relatively modest (compared ...
    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    6 days ago
  • Māori Party on the warpath against landlords and seabed miners – let’s see if mystical creature...
    Bob Edlin writes  –  The Māori Party has been busy issuing a mix of warnings and threats as its expresses its opposition to interest deductibility for landlords and the plans of seabed miners. It remains to be seen whether they  follow the example of indigenous litigants in Australia, ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    6 days ago

  • Government moves to quickly ratify the NZ-EU FTA
    "The Government is moving quickly to realise an additional $46 million in tariff savings in the EU market this season for Kiwi exporters,” Minister for Trade and Agriculture, Todd McClay says. Parliament is set, this week, to complete the final legislative processes required to bring the New Zealand – European ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 hours ago
  • Positive progress for social worker workforce
    New Zealand’s social workers are qualified, experienced, and more representative of the communities they serve, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “I want to acknowledge and applaud New Zealand’s social workers for the hard work they do, providing invaluable support for our most vulnerable. “To coincide with World ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    11 hours ago
  • Minister confirms reduced RUC rate for PHEVs
    Cabinet has agreed to a reduced road user charge (RUC) rate for plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs), Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. Owners of PHEVs will be eligible for a reduced rate of $38 per 1,000km once all light electric vehicles (EVs) move into the RUC system from 1 April.  ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    13 hours ago
  • Trade access to overseas markets creates jobs
    Minister of Agriculture and Trade, Todd McClay, says that today’s opening of Riverland Foods manufacturing plant in Christchurch is a great example of how trade access to overseas markets creates jobs in New Zealand.  Speaking at the official opening of this state-of-the-art pet food factory the Minister noted that exports ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    14 hours ago
  • NZ and Chinese Foreign Ministers hold official talks
    Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters met with Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi in Wellington today. “It was a pleasure to host Foreign Minister Wang Yi during his first official visit to New Zealand since 2017. Our discussions were wide-ranging and enabled engagement on many facets of New Zealand’s relationship with China, including trade, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Kāinga Ora instructed to end Sustaining Tenancies
    Kāinga Ora – Homes & Communities has been instructed to end the Sustaining Tenancies Framework and take stronger measures against persistent antisocial behaviour by tenants, says Housing Minister Chris Bishop. “Earlier today Finance Minister Nicola Willis and I sent an interim Letter of Expectations to the Board of Kāinga Ora. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Speech to Auckland Business Chamber: Growth is the answer
    Tēna koutou katoa. Greetings everyone. Thank you to the Auckland Chamber of Commerce and the Honourable Simon Bridges for hosting this address today. I acknowledge the business leaders in this room, the leaders and governors, the employers, the entrepreneurs, the investors, and the wealth creators. The coalition Government shares your ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Singapore rounds out regional trip
    Minister Winston Peters completed the final leg of his visit to South and South East Asia in Singapore today, where he focused on enhancing one of New Zealand’s indispensable strategic partnerships.      “Singapore is our most important defence partner in South East Asia, our fourth-largest trading partner and a ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Minister van Velden represents New Zealand at International Democracy Summit
    Minister of Internal Affairs and Workplace Relations and Safety, Hon. Brooke van Velden, will travel to the Republic of Korea to represent New Zealand at the Third Summit for Democracy on 18 March. The summit, hosted by the Republic of Korea, was first convened by the United States in 2021, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Insurance Council of NZ Speech, 7 March 2024, Auckland
    ICNZ Speech 7 March 2024, Auckland  Acknowledgements and opening  Mōrena, ngā mihi nui. Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Nor Whanganui aho.  Good morning, it’s a privilege to be here to open the ICNZ annual conference, thank you to Mark for the Mihi Whakatau  My thanks to Tim Grafton for inviting me ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Five-year anniversary of Christchurch terror attacks
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Lead Coordination Minister Judith Collins have expressed their deepest sympathy on the five-year anniversary of the Christchurch terror attacks. “March 15, 2019, was a day when families, communities and the country came together both in sorrow and solidarity,” Mr Luxon says.  “Today we pay our respects to the 51 shuhada ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Speech for Financial Advice NZ Conference 5 March 2024
    Speech for Financial Advice NZ Conference 5 March 2024  Acknowledgements and opening  Morena, Nga Mihi Nui.  Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Nor Whanganui aho. Thanks Nate for your Mihi Whakatau  Good morning. It’s a pleasure to formally open your conference this morning. What a lovely day in Wellington, What a great ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Early visit to Indonesia strengthens ties
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters held discussions in Jakarta today about the future of relations between New Zealand and South East Asia’s most populous country.   “We are in Jakarta so early in our new government’s term to reflect the huge importance we place on our relationship with Indonesia and South ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • China Foreign Minister to visit
    Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters has announced that the Foreign Minister of China, Wang Yi, will visit New Zealand next week.  “We look forward to re-engaging with Foreign Minister Wang Yi and discussing the full breadth of the bilateral relationship, which is one of New Zealand’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Minister opens new Auckland Rail Operations Centre
    Transport Minister Simeon Brown has today opened the new Auckland Rail Operations Centre, which will bring together KiwiRail, Auckland Transport, and Auckland One Rail to improve service reliability for Aucklanders. “The recent train disruptions in Auckland have highlighted how important it is KiwiRail and Auckland’s rail agencies work together to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Celebrating 10 years of Crankworx Rotorua
    The Government is proud to support the 10th edition of Crankworx Rotorua as the Crankworx World Tour returns to Rotorua from 16-24 March 2024, says Minister for Economic Development Melissa Lee.  “Over the past 10 years as Crankworx Rotorua has grown, so too have the economic and social benefits that ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Government delivering on tax commitments
    Legislation implementing coalition Government tax commitments and addressing long-standing tax anomalies will be progressed in Parliament next week, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The legislation is contained in an Amendment Paper to the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2023–24, Multinational Tax, and Remedial Matters) Bill issued today.  “The Amendment Paper represents ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Significant Natural Areas requirement to be suspended
    Associate Environment Minister Andrew Hoggard has today announced that the Government has agreed to suspend the requirement for councils to comply with the Significant Natural Areas (SNA) provisions of the National Policy Statement for Indigenous Biodiversity for three years, while it replaces the Resource Management Act (RMA).“As it stands, SNAs ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government classifies drought conditions in Top of the South as medium-scale adverse event
    Agriculture Minister Todd McClay has classified the drought conditions in the Marlborough, Tasman, and Nelson districts as a medium-scale adverse event, acknowledging the challenging conditions facing farmers and growers in the district. “Parts of Marlborough, Tasman, and Nelson districts are in the grip of an intense dry spell. I know ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government partnership to tackle $332m facial eczema problem
    The Government is helping farmers eradicate the significant impact of facial eczema (FE) in pastoral animals, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced.  “A $20 million partnership jointly funded by Beef + Lamb NZ, the Government, and the primary sector will save farmers an estimated NZD$332 million per year, and aims to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • NZ, India chart path to enhanced relationship
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has completed a successful visit to India, saying it was an important step in taking the relationship between the two countries to the next level.   “We have laid a strong foundation for the Coalition Government’s priority of enhancing New Zealand-India relations to generate significant future benefit for both countries,” says Mr Peters, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Ruapehu Alpine Lifts bailout the last, say Ministers
    Cabinet has agreed to provide $7 million to ensure the 2024 ski season can go ahead on the Whakapapa ski field in the central North Island but has told the operator Ruapehu Alpine Lifts it is the last financial support it will receive from taxpayers. Cabinet also agreed to provide ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Govt takes action to drive better cancer services
    Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says the launch of a new mobile breast screening unit in Counties Manukau reinforces the coalition Government’s commitment to drive better cancer services for all New Zealanders. Speaking at the launch of the new mobile clinic, Dr Reti says it’s a great example of taking ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Govt takes action to drive better cancer services
    Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says the launch of a new mobile breast screening unit in Counties Manukau reinforces the coalition Government’s commitment to drive better cancer services for all New Zealanders. Speaking at the launch of the new mobile clinic, Dr Reti says it’s a great example of taking ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Work begins on SH29 upgrades near Tauriko
    Unlocking economic growth and land for housing are critical elements of the Government’s plan for our transport network, and planned upgrades to State Highway 29 (SH29) near Tauriko will deliver strongly on those priorities, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “The SH29 upgrades near Tauriko will improve safety at the intersections ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Work begins on SH29 upgrades near Tauriko
    Unlocking economic growth and land for housing are critical elements of the Government’s plan for our transport network, and planned upgrades to State Highway 29 (SH29) near Tauriko will deliver strongly on those priorities, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “The SH29 upgrades near Tauriko will improve safety at the intersections ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Fresh produce price drop welcome
    Lower fruit and vegetable prices are welcome news for New Zealanders who have been doing it tough at the supermarket, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. Stats NZ reported today the price of fruit and vegetables has dropped 9.3 percent in the 12 months to February 2024.  “Lower fruit and vege ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Statement to the 68th United Nations Commission on the Status of Women
    Tēnā koutou katoa and greetings to you all.  Chair, I am honoured to address the sixty-eighth session of the Commission on the Status of Women. I acknowledge the many crises impacting the rights of women and girls. Heightened global tensions, war, climate related and humanitarian disasters, and price inflation all ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Speech to the 68th United Nations Commission on the Status of Women (CSW68)
    Tēnā koutou katoa and greetings to you all.  Chair, I am honoured to address the 68th session of the Commission on the Status of Women. I acknowledge the many crises impacting the rights of women and girls. Heightened global tensions, war, climate related and humanitarian disasters, and price inflation all ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government backs rural led catchment projects
    The coalition Government is supporting farmers to enhance land management practices by investing $3.3 million in locally led catchment groups, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced. “Farmers and growers deliver significant prosperity for New Zealand and it’s vital their ongoing efforts to improve land management practices and water quality are supported,” ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Speech to Auckland Business Chamber
    Good evening everyone and thank you for that lovely introduction.   Thank you also to the Honourable Simon Bridges for the invitation to address your members. Since being sworn in, this coalition Government has hit the ground running with our 100-day plan, delivering the changes that New Zealanders expect of us. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Commission’s advice on ETS settings tabled
    Recommendations from the Climate Change Commission for New Zealand on the Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) auction and unit limit settings for the next five years have been tabled in Parliament, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. “The Commission provides advice on the ETS annually. This is the third time the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Government lowering building costs
    The coalition Government is beginning its fight to lower building costs and reduce red tape by exempting minor building work from paying the building levy, says Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk. “Currently, any building project worth $20,444 including GST or more is subject to the building levy which is ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Trustee tax change welcomed
    Proposed changes to tax legislation to prevent the over-taxation of low-earning trusts are welcome, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The changes have been recommended by Parliament’s Finance and Expenditure Committee following consideration of submissions on the Taxation (Annual Rates for 2023–24, Multinational Tax, and Remedial Matters) Bill. “One of the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Minister’s Ramadan message
    Assalaamu alaikum. السَّلَام عليكم In light of the holy month of Ramadan, I want to extend my warmest wishes to our Muslim community in New Zealand. Ramadan is a time for spiritual reflection, renewed devotion, perseverance, generosity, and forgiveness.  It’s a time to strengthen our bonds and appreciate the diversity ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Minister appoints new NZTA Chair
    Former Transport Minister and CEO of the Auckland Business Chamber Hon Simon Bridges has been appointed as the new Board Chair of the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) for a three-year term, Transport Minister Simeon Brown announced today. “Simon brings extensive experience and knowledge in transport policy and governance to the role. He will ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Speech to Life Sciences Summit
    Good morning all, it is a pleasure to be here as Minister of Science, Innovation and Technology.  It is fantastic to see how connected and collaborative the life science and biotechnology industry is here in New Zealand. I would like to thank BioTechNZ and NZTech for the invitation to address ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Progress continues apace on water storage
    Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says he is looking forward to the day when three key water projects in Northland are up and running, unlocking the full potential of land in the region. Mr Jones attended a community event at the site of the Otawere reservoir near Kerikeri on Friday. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
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  • Government agrees to restore interest deductions
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