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Open mike 17/12/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 17th, 2022 - 108 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

108 comments on “Open mike 17/12/2022 ”

  1. Binders full of Women 1

    Another hut gone crying The Makokoere Hut in the Waioeka headwaters has been burnt down. This is not part of the TuT/ Poto Williams 50 hut destruction plan in the former National Park. A separate arson. Access and safety has now impacted the two huts on each side. These magnificent small backcountry huts are approx a 3/4 days walk from each other so huts either side are no longer safely accessible. Conservationists and hunters are saddened.

  2. PsyclingLeft.Always 3

    "Patients are so vulnerable to Covid and these anti-vaxxers have been sneaking in and putting lots of children suffering from heart conditions at risk. At no time has security ever been needed like this," the mother said.

    "A really safe space for sick and dying children has been grossly invaded. It’s our one place of refuge from a terminal illness."

    She said families needed to be masked and tested on the ward and individuals refusing to comply with the requirements – "especially with their unmasked anti-vaxxer mates sneaking in" – were increasing the risk to other patients.


    "Alex Jones is comparing the doctors at Starship Hospital to Josef Mengele and saying they're doing Nazi-style medical experiments on the baby."


    Sue Grey , Liz Gunn, all the other anti vaxxers with their "concern" incl going on alex jones "info wars " FFS !

    ….have they any concern for those actually affected by their actions? IMO..None.

    • KJT 3.1

      One circumstance where a bit of deterrent jail time for the idiots may be appropriate.

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 3.1.1

        IMO ….Selfish jerks..and "Lawyer Sue" might be getting too close to the conspiracy flame


      • Barfly 3.1.2

        I should be banned for this but I would consider the John Cleese solution to discipline issues (only in jest)

      • Anne 3.1.3

        KJT @ 3.1


        Not related to antivaxxers but this item is yet another example of our ability to lead normal lives without fear being negatively affected by mad conspiracy theorists and extreme political agitators:


        It's time a much harder line is taken to counter all of them regardless of their individual fixations. Currently we are letting these crackpots – be they anti-vaxxers or some other extreme fantasists – get away with their anti-social activities with little more than a wet bus ticket.

        Time in jail contemplating their futures is a highly desirable alternative.

        • x Socialist

          Look on the bright side. The hate towards the PM will mostly ( not all) transfer to David Seymour and to a lesser extent, Luxon, after the next election. However, the protests and threats will be way more severe because mainstream groups will be protesting their loss of funding and importance under a Nat/Act coalition. That of course presupposes National and ACT can come to a political arrangement. That isn't a given yet.

          • Graeme

            Good observation. I've a couple of long time friends who have disappeared down the hole and it's a powerlessness in the face of a rapidly changing world and backlash at the neo-con, globalist world. Whoever is PM next Christmas will be getting just as much grief from the same people. Luxon is no more their thing than Arden, and probably viewed with more suspicion.

      • AB 3.1.4

        jail time for the idiots

        I'm inclined to think "useful idiots" might be a tad more accurate as a description. Someone else's agenda is at play and it's on the move and making inroads. If we get Luxon's coronation next year, it will be the 'normie' expression of the same underlying sentiments.

        But jail time will just lend credibility to their delusions of persecution.

      • SPC 3.1.5

        In times of political crisis/public insecurity resist the temptation to

        1. jail people

        2. suppress protest

        3. label alternative opinion conspiracy theory (a term invented by the spooks to marginalise truth tellers – and some of it is just that)

        4. pretend to be professionals able to prognosis others as narcissists and sociopaths.

        Don't become Orwellian.

        • KJT

          It is not "alternative opinion".

          It is a bunch of deluded idiots putting other people at risk.

          They can spout their nonsence in a protest as much as they want. When it is putting already sick kids at extra risk, however!!

          • RedLogix

            I think you have had your authoritarian jollies for now. Much of the extremism you are bitching about is a direct reaction to state overreach this past two years.

            Time to pack it in. Otherwise what SPC said.

            • KJT

              Keeping people safe during a deadly pandemic is "State overreach"?

              If you support as the ones threatening the safety of sick children, by flouting masking and separation rules in hospitals, you are as much of a fucking idiot as they are.

              • mauī

                You can see how seriously hospitals are taking masking during a "deadly pandemic" by watching the baby uplift scene.

                • RedLogix

                  Yes – here in Brisbane mask wearing even in medical settings is hit and miss now.

                  If you are wearing a properly fitted and tested mask with no air leaks then well and good. Otherwise they are just virtue signaling.

                  • Robert Guyton

                    "If you are wearing a properly fitted and tested mask with no air leaks then well and good. Otherwise they are just virtue signaling."


                    How about,

                    If you are wearing a properly fitted and tested mask with no air leaks then well and good. Otherwise they are just trying their best to help everyone else!!

                    You think people who believe their mask-wearing is protecting their neighbours, relatives and friends, are virtue signalling???

                    I'm appalled by that claim.

                  • Sacha

                    If you are wearing a properly fitted and tested mask with no air leaks then well and good. Otherwise they are just virtue signaling.

                    Any mask reduces the viral load you are exposed to. Fit-tested N95s are clearly the best but it is not a binary proposition.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      But…virtue signalling!!

                      The perfect counter to … reason!!

                    • RedLogix

                      Fit-tested N95s are clearly the best but it is not a binary proposition.

                      More so than you might imagine. How many times have you taken a respiratory mask fit test? Because I can advise it is remarkably easy to fail.

                      I am happy to accept that a mask of any kind will stop large droplets that someone might sneeze or cough, but the highly aerosolised viral particles that persist in the air for many hours – are another question again.

                      The weak point of any mask is the concave gap between the bridge of the nose and the top of the cheeks. All masks intended to be used in hazardous environments, will have a firm shape that fits this space and a strap scheme that applies sufficient force to keep the gap closed reliably. The usual blue and white paper mask most people use, or cheap N95's with a flimsy bit of elastic for a strap simply do not achieve this.

                      If you wear glasses and find that when you first put a mask on they fog up, this is because the bulk of the air you are inhaling and exhaling is taking the path of least resistance through this gap. And this means the mask is doing little to protect you or anyone else from the very fine, highly suspended viral particles that are the dominant hazard.

                      Any industrial hygienist will tell you this.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      But you are criticising those who believe their efforts are effective and want to help their fellow man avoid harm. You call that, "virtue signalling". That's offensive.

                      You may be able to "prove them wrong" in their belief, but your attempts to prove them "virtue signallers" is misguided and harmful.

                    • RedLogix

                      Last year I was working at a site which produced lithium hydroxide and at the back end of the plant where it is packaged there is a very fine, invisible to the eye, dust in the air.

                      Lithium hydroxide is caustic (just like sodium hydroxide) and will definitely cause harm to your airways and lungs if inhaled. The smallest particle sizes are of the similar order to a typical virus.

                      You can be absolutely certain we took mast fit testing, and proper wearing of our high quality PPE very seriously. The usual kind of mask people wear for COVID protection was simply not an option – a sackable offence if you should be stupid enough to try getting away with using one.

                      So while I accept the term 'virtue signaling' might be a blunt way of putting it, if you are serious about wanting to reduce virus load, then you need to be serious about the mask. Most people are not.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      "Most people" are acting with integrity and to the best of their ability. Based on the best information available to them and their feelings of altruism and their willingness to help others, they are masking-up.

                      Accusing them of "virtue signalling" is despicable, imo.

                    • RedLogix

                      So what would call an action that is intended to look like it is doing something useful – but in reality is not?

                      Happy to go with your suggestion.

                    • Incognito []

                      Mask wearing is not about looks.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      "So what would call an action that is intended to look like it is doing something useful keep others safe – but in reality RedLogix' opinion, is not?

                      Happy to go with your suggestion."

                      Sincerity, altruism, genuine concern for more vulnerable people,

                    • Sacha

                      The harm from Covid is also not a binary proposition. Challenging for more linear minds, I know.

      • weka 3.1.6

        One circumstance where a bit of deterrent jail time for the idiots may be appropriate.

        Jailed for what exactly?

        The hospital appears to be doing its job – if people won't follow masking/testing rules they're not allowed in. People are being arseholes, but I didn't see anything in the article that suggesting criminality.

        • KJT

          Endangering others, like they are, is criminal.

          No different from speeding through a residential street full of kids playing, at 100k.

          Or, ram raiding a dairy with people inside.

        • KJT

          Some appear to have been infected since covid by "Libertarian philosphy" where "individual freedom" is sacrosanct, no matter what the harm it does to everyone else.

          In fact your "freedom should end" where my nose begins".

          We interfere with the urge to indulge in the "individual freedom" to punch someone, when another will get hurt.

          Anyone who thinks recent actions to reduce the harm caused by covid, which were supported by over 90% at the time was "State overreach" has lost the plot.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 3.2

      "Sue Grey , Liz Gunn, all the other anti vaxxers with their "concern" incl going on alex jones "info wars " FFS !"

      Anti-vax followers are a diverse and varied bunch. But the leaders of the movement (and other conspiracy movements) often seem to be narcissist-types, IMHO. They don’t care about anyone else.

      • Anne 3.2.1

        "But the leaders of the movement (and other conspiracy movements) often seem to be narcissist-types…"

        My thoughts too. Anyone who has ever been on the receiving end of a full blown narcissist, no matter the circumstance, will recognise that is precisely what they are. Add a bit of sociopathy to the mix and you've got a huge amount of damage to individuals and… society as a whole.

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 3.2.2

        Absolutely. No matter how they pretend…Its ALL about them.

  3. PsyclingLeft.Always 5

    “In this video, 4 New Zealand scientists talk about how the water cycle is part of Earth’s system. They point out that Earth’s system consists of 4 subsystems – the geosphere, hydrosphere, atmosphere and biosphere – which all interact with each other.”


    Includes a small…but important video

    Note the Dates….Published 3 August 2009, Updated 1 October 2012

    Did some of those Kids….become engaged with this ? Oh for the Teachers that would connect with them. IMO they probably dont do it just for the pay…but worth every amount.

    Also in link…


    Ive been involved with some…so Interesting. I am but a layman…but I do like to know ….and how in small way to help..Our Earth.



  4. Stephen D 6

    Some of you are teachers/lecturers , I’m sure.


    Could make essay marking even harder.

    ”The replies are so lucid, well-researched and decently referenced that some academics are calling the bot the death knell for conventional forms of educational assessment. How worried should professors and lecturers be?”

  5. Jenny are we there yet 7

    Russia's Special Military Operation, 'SMO' is following the arc of that other infamous undeclared 'WAR'.

    As the Vietnam War dragged on with no resolution, it became increasingly difficult for the American public and especially broadcast commentators to discern what the US was actually trying to achieve with the war. The same in Russia.

    Kremlin TV Stars Combust as Russians Admit War Is Aimless

    Julia Davis

    Fri, December 16, 2022 4 min read


    • RedLogix 7.1

      Yes the comparison with Vietnam is worth making. It can only be understood within the context of the Cold War – which was a decades long, highly intense confrontation with Stalinist Russia and Maoist China, both brutal, totalitarian marxist proto-empires. That was the underlying motivation.

      Vietnam itself was a mistake and long recognised as such. Moreover as the futility and stupidity of that mistake became evident to people all across the western world, the will to continue the war, to commit to the escalation necessary to win – evaporated.

      The difference worth noting however is that in the West the people were able to protest the war without incurring massive personal cost, such as decade long prison sentences or worse. In Russia right this is not possible; all organised opposition is imprisoned (such as Navalney) or has gone into exile.

      Again my point is not that the West is incapable of making terrible mistakes – no human polity is immune from this. It is that open liberal democracy that respects at least the principle of individual rights and the concept of citizenship, and thus contains the means to self-correct those mistakes.

      By contrast consider the era of the gulags – a horror that the authoritarian Soviets had no choice but to continue to double down on until the death of the tyrant shook loose the system and brought it to an end. (Well at least until recently when Putin thought it a fine thing to rehabilitate Stalin and the cruel ethos of the prison state.)

      • mikesh 7.1.1

        By Biden's own admission a resumption of the cold war is underway, and it will take fifty to sixty years to play out. The Ukrainian conflict apparently is just the opening salvo.

        I can't provide a link, but see "China – the change agent" on michael-hudson.com

      • Tony Veitch 7.1.2

        Currently reading "Blood Lands" by Timothy Snyder – about Europe between Hitler and Stalin.

        The deliberately engineered famine in the Ukraine, 1931-33 which killed at least 3.3 million people, should make all Ukrainians detest Russians forever!

        And I'm only up to about p100 of 408!!

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 7.2

      Julia Davis is awesome.

      The reported story is a rare case of (mild) dissent aired in public. There is no right to protest or free speech in Russia, and no permitted independent media, so public dissent might not have the same effect as it did in the USA over the Vietnam war, unfortunately.

  6. Anker 8


    As the link says Kim Hill interviews one of the sciencetists who made the break through re nuclear-fusion. I found it informative.

  7. Incognito 9

    National MP Barbara Kuriger is toast, but what will Luxon do about it? Will he butter it, burn it, burry it, or biff it?


    • Wow!! What entitled behaviour. Scratch the surface and their behaviour is almost scary in relation to rule of law!! Too many Nats think they are a breed apart. Woodhouse Kuriger et al. Wasn't she the woman who "helped" a young Southland MP Todd Barclay?

      • Incognito 9.1.1

        It begs the question why this wasn’t picked up by the National Party long before the MPI whistle blower blew the whistle in Luxon’s ear.

        • bwaghorn

          Ummmm because national doesn't mind you being an entitled bully it's only a problem if ypu get caught.

  8. joe90 10

    Elmo's a Poots humper.

    • joe90 10.1

      Tesla’s third largest private shareholder.

  9. Chess Player 11

    I think with more and more of these types of incidents occurring, law and order might become a greater issue at next year's election than the economy.

    Hopefully more innocent people aren't killed or maimed when doing their jobs, while we continue to wait for Labour to move out of the denial phase.


    • Barfly 11.1

      Do you play on Lichess? I wouldn't mind testing your skills.devil

    • x Socialist 11.2

      It begs a question about Xmas holidays this year. Will it be quiet because people have tightened their belts, or will crime spiral completely out of control because crims take advantage of stretched police resources and an over taxed retail sector?

      • SPC 11.2.1

        There is no evidence crime is out of control, nor that criminals are taking advantage of a "stretched" police resources.

        The only part of the retail sector that is overtaxed is tobacco, as with other government interventions (such as the RB QE) it distorts the market in harmful ways, and this can and does result in greed. The problem with polite middle class society it likes incentives when they do well out of it, but no much when it gives others "ideas" about how to afford the latest phone/big screen TV.

        • x Socialist

          ''There is no evidence crime is out of control, nor that criminals are taking advantage of a "stretched" police resources.''

          Let's see what happened today:

          1- Law abiding citizen has two finger chopped off in a robbery.

          2- A probable gang-banger shot dead in a church car park.

          3- I have seen hardcore violence at my local supermarket all year. The latest 3 days ago when two security guards tackled a meat thief who had the audacity to say " I'm only trying to feed my whanau – let me go!

          I lost count of crimes committed during my month away from this blog.

          Are you going by official stats?

          ''The only part of the retail sector that is overtaxed is tobacco.''

          You must live in a great part of the country. In my area many shops are advertising for workers. Shop after shop after shop.

        • Jester

          "There is no evidence crime is out of control"

          You obviously do not read or watch the news. Where are you living? Mars?

          • SPC

            So reality is based on the news coverage you consume?

            Heard of red pill and red pill – Fox and liberal MSM?

            • Jester

              Heard of taking off your rose tinted glasses and actually admitting not all is well in paradise.

              • Robert Guyton

                Evidence is not proof.

                • Jester

                  Perhaps you should work in a dairy for a few weeks. If you lost a couple of fingers would that be enough proof for you?

                  • Robert Guyton

                    What would that prove?

                    That crime is out of control?

                    Would losing my wallet to a pick-pocket prove the same thing?

                    Evidence is not proof.

                    • Jester

                      There is an awful lot of evidence lately.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      More than ever before?

                      Enough to support the claim that crime is "out of control"?

                    • Jester

                      Yep. More than before. It's definitely more than a spike. Many no longer reported.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      "Many no longer being reported"

                      Got proof of that?

                    • Jester

                      Yep. The local liquor store that has been hit 7 times. My local Countdown. I witnessed a robbery the other night at Countdown. Spoke with the manager there. They no longer call the police. That was at least the third one that week and it was only Wednesday!
                      You have to get out and talk to people on the coalface.

    • SPC 11.3

      $20,000 of tobacco being held at the start of weekends … in former times it was a cash till grab (and transfer to safe and or mid-day banking reduced risk).

      The retailing of the product is a crime magnet, so who has the smarts to solve this?

      I say sell smokes in other ways.

      1. automated kiosk (refilled during the day the same way that cash is moved for banks).

      2. subscription supply from a warehouse (delivered each week by a courier).

    • SPC 11.4

      The statistics do not show higher youth crime.

      They do show more incidents involving those under 14.


      While Coster hit back at the politicisation of policing, telling reporters outside that he wanted a more sober and fact-based analysis of crime and justice

      Coster said social media was encouraging young children to commit crimes – but also fuelling unrealistic fear in the community about crime in general.

      The pandemic had led to more crime in cities and towns, he said, as they became less populated and more people spent time at home. Overall, that had been balanced due to less suburban thefts.

      But he said police were deeply concerned by “a shape spike” in very young children committing crimes since the pandemic had started.

      Coster noted these children, many aged under 14, were not old enough to be criminally culpable for the shoplifting and public intimidation which they were committing.

      “Our job is done, in cases with under 14-year-olds, once we have referred them [to other agencies],” he said.

      Deputy Police Commissioner Wally Haumaha​ appeared to agree with some of Mitchell’s concerns around police being expected to pick up extra roles, more suited to welfare agencies

      After the select committee review, Haumaha told Stuff he agreed with the sentiment that police could only do so much. He said that iwi, community and social agencies outside of government needed to be resourced to better help young people.

      “Our responsibility as police is to work with other agencies and iwi,” he said.

      “The problem at the moment is you're seeing with ram raids and youth offending, is these kids have been truanting and out of school. It's a huge social problem. And everybody is grappling with it.”


      • Chess Player 11.4.1

        No humanity, or concern for the victim, was indicated in the making of your post.

        Merry Xmas.

        • SPC

          Amazing how many of the discussions on this site end up with a personal insult.

          Chess Player on The Standard.

          You argued that law and order might become a greater issue at next year's election than the economy. And Labour was in a denial phase.

          I quoted experts on crime. I might quote another expert, LPrent, if you lack the debate skills this might not be the site for you.

    • Muttonbird 11.5

      A baptism of fire for new Hamilton West MP, Tama Potaka. What is he going to do to arrest this massive increase in crime on his watch?

      • x Socialist 11.5.1

        Nothing at the moment. But he and Mitchell better have a plan after National win the next election otherwise National will be one hit wonders. The message voters send Labour at election time will also apply to National. Law abiding citizens from what I have seen, heard and read, have had a gutsful.

        • Robert Guyton

          "he and Mitchell "

          He & Mitchell?

          We're pinning our hopes on those two??

          Heaven help us all!

  10. Chess Player 12

    This is such a tragedy.

    The usual gang apologists like Russell Brown, Kiri Allan and Jarod Gilbert will do what they always do, but I feel for the family of the guy murdered.


    • observer 12.1

      And other people don't?

      Read the story again. The deceased is exactly the kind of person you think should be in jail, with knee-jerk "lock 'em up and throw away the key". He committed serious crimes.

      But if you do believe in the chance of redemption and welcome the support he was getting, have a word with your chums who dismiss that as "kumbaya" and "mush".

      Do you?

      From the link: “He had sought to turn his life around and had tragically just finished attending an empowerment gathering for people who sought to leave lives of crime.”

      Mush, right?

    • Muttonbird 12.2

      Did you read the article? Daniel Eliu was a convicted violent criminal offender and a lifetime gang member.

      Before he was gunned down he had apparently attended a Grace Foundation rehabilitation program run by the father of National Party aligned David Letele, himself a former gang member.

      Amazing how some gang run rehabilitation programs are slated by right wing nut jobs and others are not…


    • Anker 12.3

      Chess Player I feel for the murdered guys previous victims. And yes his family too.

  11. joe90 13

    Take a bow, tankies.



  12. SPC 14

    This is how it ends, a bio diversity disaster, or a mysterious apocalypse that causes the spread of misinformation and violence, or a hearing on Capitol Hill?

    The congressional inquiry into last year's Capitol riot will reportedly recommend three criminal charges against former President Donald Trump.

    The select committee is scheduled to hold its final meeting on Monday when any charging recommendations would be unveiled.

    As well as insurrection, according to various outlets, the panel will suggest Mr Trump be charged with obstructing an official proceeding and conspiracy to defraud the United States.

    The nine panellists are expected to approve the final eight-chapter report, drawing on interviews with more than 1,000 witnesses, and submit it to the Department of Justice (DoJ).

    The full report will be made public on Wednesday, said chairman Bennie Thompson, a Mississippi Democrat who is helming the select committee.


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