Open mike 19/01/2014

107 comments on “Open mike 19/01/2014 ”

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1. phillip ure 1

   19 January 2014 at 7:54 am

   matt mccarten has one valid question for dotcom..

   ..but otherwise he just pretty much ‘blows smoke’..

   http://whoar.co.nz/2014/matt-mccarten-accuses-dotcom-of-lying-about-the-reasons-for-cancelling-his-launch-party-and-mccarten-blows-smoke/

   phillip ure..
2. Paul 2

   19 January 2014 at 7:55 am

   Kim Dotcom

   “John Key and his partners have lost the connection with the people and their original purpose. I would never have gone into politics if it wasn’t for the abuse that I have experienced. I have been a victim of numerous unlawful actions by both the New Zealand and US Governments. There’s something seriously wrong with a government that engages in this kind of activity to please another government.”

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11188725
   • Colonial Viper 2.1

     19 January 2014 at 10:27 am

     It’s imperial subserviency.

     And guess what the TPPA is about.
     • Draco T Bastard 2.1.1

       19 January 2014 at 12:11 pm

       Yep, KDC seems to realise that:

       “When the Internet Party makes it into Parliament, the NSA Five Eyes spy network will lose one eye. We intend re-evaluating the relationship between New Zealand and the US Government.”
       • aerobubble 2.1.1.1

         19 January 2014 at 1:00 pm

         The intelligent gathered is used to target terrorists with drones. This is an ancient military tactic. The shock trooper. We are at war.
         http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_troops
         That its outsourced, no soldiers necessary, and kills innocent women and children, creating collateral damage to our allies, hidden behind the curtain of state security, should scare everyone except of course we believe – like our leaders – that psychological warfare is not only legal but necessary to transform backward societies.
         The five eyes is just the tip of the problem, that we can talk about thanks to Dotcom and Snowdon. Dotcom from his lawyers opening up the illegality of spy agencies, and Snowdon for the outsourcing, depth, breath, of the spying.
         • Colonial Viper 2.1.1.1.1

           19 January 2014 at 1:08 pm

           +1
3. Paul 3

   19 January 2014 at 8:02 am

   Do McDonalds and other sectors of the food industry pay the Herald to write their articles?
   Susan Edmunds hang your head in shame.
   What a disgraceful and desperate corporate rag.

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=11188688
   • phillip ure 3.1

     19 January 2014 at 9:55 am

     @ paul..

     ..yeah..i saw that one..

     ..it deserves a special award all of its’ own..

     ..something like ‘craven sychophancy to planet-fucking corporate villain journalism award’..

     ..would that do..?

     phillip ure..
   • Plan B 3.2

     19 January 2014 at 11:13 am

     I really liked this bit.
     Another widely-heard myth was that there were antibiotics in chicken meat. But it had been years since any antibiotic residue had been found in chicken meat – “There’s quite a stringent testing programme,” in New Zealand.”

     I think that the word myth in this instance has not been used correctly, I thought that a myth was something that was not true, a story , a fiction that is widely told. If however it has actually been true in the past – ie their used to be antibiotics in chicken. Then it is not a myth at all.
     • Paul 3.2.1

       19 January 2014 at 11:31 am

       No antibiotics? Not according to this article.

       ‘Thirty per cent of chickens in 20 farms across the North Island have been found to be suffering from leg problems affecting their movement.

       The finding is in a new report from the Ministry for Primary Industries that lifts the lid on “lameness levels” among New Zealand’s indoor chicken meat farms.All the farms surveyed had feed containing antibiotics.”

       http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/9264409/North-Island-inspections-find-lame-chickens

       Susan Edmunds and The NZ Herald,do you research your stories…or just repeat what the corporates tell you?
       • weka 3.2.1.1

         19 January 2014 at 11:45 am

         Although to be pedantic, feeding chickens antibiotics doesn’t mean there will be residue in the meat. Meat producers have delay times between medicating animals and those animals being slaughtered for consumption (same with pesticide use on plants), so the antibiotics can be metabolised out (ie they go into the chook poo and in to the environment instead).

         I don’t know if I believe the bit about no residues, but it is technically possible.

         Even if the antibiotic issues is resolved, eating animals raised in factories changes the nutrient profile, which is a good reason not to eat them (in addition to the cruelty aspect).
         • Draco T Bastard 3.2.1.1.1

           19 January 2014 at 12:19 pm

           Even if the antibiotic issues is resolved, eating animals raised in factories changes the nutrient profile, which is a good reason not to eat them (in addition to the cruelty aspect).

           Yep, it’s the caged farming of the chickens that’s the problem – not the antibiotics.
           • weka 3.2.1.1.1.1

             19 January 2014 at 12:38 pm

             The antibiotics are serious problem too. Their overuse in raising food is causing resistance bacteria, and then the drugs end up in the environment as well. It’s possible to raise animals without using antibiotics like that.
             • Draco T Bastard …

               19 January 2014 at 3:25 pm

               It’s possible to raise animals without using antibiotics like that.

               Yes but not in cages. It’s the cages that make the antibiotics necessary.
               • Bill …

                 19 January 2014 at 3:45 pm

                 Shame that animals, unlike us, are too smart to fall for the whole panopticon ruse then…y’know, cause in that case, we could have them raised with the bars essentially in their heads and presumably have no need for them thar antibiotics.
               • weka …

                 19 January 2014 at 3:57 pm

                 “Yes but not in cages. It’s the cages that make the antibiotics necessary.”

                 Cages mean greater use of antibiotics, but I think you will find that freerange conventional chook farms use antibiotics too.
             • bad12 …

               19 January 2014 at 4:40 pm

               Agree with you here weka, the problem with feeding antibiotics to animals that we then go on to eat is that IF we are then exposed to higher antibiotic use through the food chain this may go some way to explain why antibiotics have now become so ineffective in too many areas of medicine,

               Having just spent the week researching H3N2,(a flu virus), on another little mission,i can say that antibiotics are 93% inefficient against this particular viral infection,(which may be why there is a high instance of H3N2 morphing into full on viral pneumonia)…
               • weka …

                 19 January 2014 at 5:34 pm

                 Hmm, antiobiotics work against bacteria. They don’t affect viruses. Sometimes they are prescribed for viral infections to prevent secondary bacterial infection, but they are not a remedy for flu viruses.
                 • bad12 …

                   19 January 2014 at 11:47 pm

                   Yeah sorry, i should have said bacterial pneumonia there and the problem with the A strain of H3N2 in particular is the co-infections that have a propensity to invade along with it,

                   http://www.cdc.govt/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6116a4.htm
         • tricledrown 3.2.1.1.2

           19 January 2014 at 8:23 pm

           the antibiotics may not be their but the resistant bugs will be their.
           Antibiotic feed raises heavier birds.
4. ScottGN 4

   19 January 2014 at 8:24 am

   What’s Judith Collins playing at?
   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11188760
   Is she just trying to distance the government from any fallout if it’s determined that the relevant agencies have tragically failed the family in Dunedin?
   Is she just trying to soften her ‘crusher’ image and boost her profile? If so, why? And wouldn’t it be pretty tacky to use a tragedy like this for such a thing?
   Given that this is the second attention-grabbing story from her in a week (this other being the attack on the CTU over the H&S money allocated by ACC which she subsequently backed away from, after getting the headline she wanted) is it that she’s privy to information around the election timing and she’s just switched into campaign mode?
   • RedBaronCV 4.1

     19 January 2014 at 8:39 am

     Gievn the attitudes of the Nacts towards DV –

     no statistics published,
     repealing the Bristol clauses,
     the costs and difficulties of getting protection orders to start with (there are only a few thousand each year compared to the traffic through the Refuges and the 76,000 complaints laid with the police),
     the lack of police action with those 76,000 complaints (gotta keep the crime rates down you know)
     the wet bus ticket safety orders used, (keep away from the house for three days- who cares if her and the kids have to move out, he needs the property)
     the very watered down DV laws passed by the Nacts at the start of their reign

     This smacks of a pre-emptive strike in case this blows up to roast busters size.

     And of course it’s important that we focus on poor feeling sorry for poor Judith
   • dv 4.2

     19 January 2014 at 8:50 am

     Two points struck me
     >>The Justice Minister spoke to the Herald on Sunday yesterday, after announcing plans to use GPS monitors to track violent men and stop them going near women they had threatened or attacked.

     >>She was not impressed by criticism of police in this case.

     I read in one report that the police took 50 minutes to respond.

     If that was so then that appears to be the weak point. If the response is so slow then Gps, protection orders don’t appear to be at all effective.

     AND has there been ANY arrests in the roast busters case?
     • David H 4.2.1

       19 January 2014 at 12:04 pm

       “I read in one report that the police took 50 minutes to respond.”

       But god help you if you do 4k over the speed limit.
   • karol 4.3

     19 January 2014 at 8:50 am

     I’m wary of Collins using this case (and her cousins) as a promo for using GPS monitors. This reminds me of the 5 Eyes use of domestic violence and child abuse, child pornography etc, as an reason for GCSB/NSA surveillance.

     When it comes to domestic and partner abuse, there’s a far wider cultural problem – as seen with this case of a woman who was battered in the street, while by standers did nothing. One gave the reason for not intervening to help the woman as that he thought the perp was the victim’s partner.
     • Jackal 4.3.1

       19 January 2014 at 12:42 pm

       It’s very difficult to intervene to stop domestic violence when it’s occurring. Sometimes the abuser and their victim then set upon the person who is trying to intervene. Your average citizen is simply not equipped to deal with a violent and potentially escalating situation. That’s why we have the police, who aren’t much good if they don’t respond.

       This all points to there being systematic dysfunction within the police force, an observation confirmed by their refusal to divulge exactly how many times they had been contacted about Edward Livingstone’s horrendous behaviour.

       The other issue here is that National has made huge cuts in the amount of funding for organizations that are designed to help abused woman and their children escape dangerous situations. The fact of the matter is that if some of those services were still available, then perhaps Katharine Webb’s children would still be alive.

       I find it pretty disgusting that Judith Collin’s has decided to use these terribly sad deaths of two children to promote GPS monitors while not once addressing the actual underlying dysfunction her government has caused. She seems to think that only the murderer is to blame. However those who knew these murders were likely to occur are also somewhat to blame. They should feel ashamed and be held to account for not doing anything.
       • Tim 4.3.1.1

         19 January 2014 at 2:20 pm

         “That’s why we have the police, who aren’t much good if they don’t respond.”
         +1
         Unfortunately we don’t ekshly have a “police” as such these days. We have a “Polis”
         … a corporatised, politicised, bean-counter-driven agency of State – not too dissimilar from the others whereby it has become yet another fiefdom – under the helm of its Commissar whose expectations as to performance, are driven by prescribed & economically-based ‘deliverables’ – all probably set up in some frikken ‘purchase agreement’ somewhere.

         What’s even more sad (sadder?) is when it comes to ‘accountability, and transparency’ – the foot soldiers always get the blame.
       • bad12 4.3.1.2

         19 January 2014 at 4:56 pm

         i will not decry the behavior of the Police vis a vis Edward Livingston’s insanity, what i believe has occurred here is that when His ex-wife fled the property and alerted the police from the neighbour’s place she has confirmed on the phone to the Police Comm’s center that there definitely was a firearm involved,

         Where there is confirmation of a definite firearm in an incident then ‘their rules’ are that the Armed Offenders Squad must be the ‘first arrivals’ as far as the Police goes,

         While the above does beg the question ‘why then are there gun cabinets in every cop car’ i still understand why it is the Armed Offenders Squad,(and hence the 40 minutes to get to the property), who are tasked to be first at an incident where a firearm has been confirmed as being involved,

         i particularly have no reason to be defending the plods, the only interaction i have ever had with them has been as the ‘offender’ and have only commented in the interest of balance…
         • Jackal 4.3.1.2.1

           19 January 2014 at 6:03 pm

           In the interest of balance then I should level some criticism at our biased justice system that was more concerned with an abuser losing his job at Corrections than protecting his victims.

           Let’s not forget that Livingstone boasted to people that he was going to kill his children before he went and committed that very heinous crime. What exactly did those people who he informed do about such statements and more to the point, what the fuck did the Police do about it? As far as I’m aware, threatening to kill children is a pretty serious crime.

           Also, what exactly was the Police’s recommendations to the court when the idiot judge let Livingstone walk free for twice breaching his protection orders? I presume they were as equally biased as the Judge was because of Livingstone position.

           Let’s not forget the compromised psychiatrist who made a submission/affidavit to the court saying Livingstone was fine because of a change in medication. That finding was clearly wrong and I presume he gave such a biased opinion because he was also employed by Corrections.

           If Livingstone wasn’t a white male who worked for Corrections…a man who had twice been caught out breaching protection orders, made threats to kill his children and stalked his victims for at least a month before committing child murder and then suicide, he would have been locked up quick smart. So no bad12, I don’t accept that the Police are not to blame here because of procedural matters surrounding the actual murders. They could have done a lot lot more.
           • bad12 4.3.1.2.1.1

             19 January 2014 at 6:47 pm

             Sorry i cannot agree with you Jackel, i forgot the number of protection orders that are currently in force here but believe it to number over 20,000,

             The simple fact is that these orders are actually breached so often that to lock up every offender for doing so would require a hell of a lot more prisons be built,

             The obviously insane Livingstone, until the point where He actually physically acted fit the profile of what is in fact ‘pretty average’ for a person who has had a protection order issued against them, most who offend against protection orders desist after appearing in Court a couple of time and being warned off by a judge,

             That small %, in my opinion those with the strongest belief that their ex partner and children are their ‘property’,go on to acts of violence and it is left to the judiciary to try and fathom just who among the 1000’s of those who do breach protection orders is so dangerous that they have to be locked up,

             As family violence has no particular demographic, except for by a huge % usually being the province of the male ‘the system’ gets it wrong when attempting to define the danger level of a particular breacher of a protection order a many times as it gets it right,

             As i said at the start of this comment, other then the present system the alternative would be to build one hell of a lot more prisons and lock up every breacher of a protection order…
             • Jackal …

               19 January 2014 at 7:22 pm

               You do have a point that the breaches of Livingstone’s protection orders that the Police pursued weren’t particularly serious. However it is his other behaviour that the Police appear to have not bothered to act on that is of most concern…particularly the fact that Livingstone had threatened to kill his children. Are you seriously saying that the Police should not have arrested Livingstone for threatening to kill children?

               I don’t necessarily agree that we would need more prisons (there are in fact far more cells available than currently required) if protection orders were more heavily enforced. What we do need is for officials to do their jobs properly, because for every Livingstone who is allowed his freedom to go onto commit further crimes, there are people who are being locked up for no good reason at all because of failings and bias within a corrupted system.

               Much of this disproportionate application of the law is based on a person’s position within society, who they know or are related to and/or the colour of their skin. It is also related to the bean counters trying to get blood out of a stone. Some of those dysfunctional aspects of our “justice” system appear to be why these terrible murders have occurred, which I might add is a statement that doesn’t diminish the brevity of Livingstone’s unforgivable crimes at all.
               • bad12 …

                 20 January 2014 at 12:10 am

                 Nope never even came anywhere near insinuating that the Police should not have arrested Livingston and put Him befor the Court for threats against His children,and my defense of the Plods has simply been one of defending the time it took them to get to the address and why i think it took that time,

                 i totally agree with you vis a vis the likes of Livingston and the outcome that is more likely to occur where the person in breach of a protection order happens to be brown and unemployed and the statistics would tell us that living in the much extolled ‘family’ is to all extents and purposes just as dangerous,if not more so,then drinking every night in a bar frequented by gang members,

                 While i totally agree with you on the fact that any number of those filling our jails are of no real danger to the public and should be either serving community or home based sentences my comments above are based around what IS as opposed to the ideal…
             • RedBaronCV …

               20 January 2014 at 9:44 am

               I’m with you on this one Jackel. The ability of the system, male judges, police, courts to find excuses for offenders and actively promote their rights to do what they are doing up to and including the stuff going on right in front of them has to be seen to be believed.

               There needs to be a graduated response:
               The easiest way to ascertain the degree of the offence is to provide voluntary programmes and at the first hint of breaches unless someone goes and gets a pass out certificate then it goes to court.( a way out for the genuinely sorry and a oncer)

               If they don’t do that, then you lock them up for a couple of days a week, their weekend, and the programme is now compulsory. If they don’t turn up they get arrested at work which is apparently a huge deterrent.

               The left overs are real trouble.
               And yes socio-economic variables play a huge part in judicial response.
   • phillip ure 4.4

     19 January 2014 at 9:57 am

     @ scott..

     i would go with ..’b’…

     http://whoar.co.nz/2014/collins-continues-her-campaign-to-succeed-key-the-care-edition/

     phillip ure..
   • Will@Welly 4.5

     19 January 2014 at 10:55 am

     Playing “I am a victim too” scenario tends to blindside the public into believing that you are working in the interests of “everyone”. A GPS unit to track those with restraining orders today, they also want to monitor pedophiles, the thing is, then what is next on the agenda?
     Remember Pike River. Gary Knowles, the local superintendent was heavily criticized at the time, but in reality, he was just taking his orders from Police National Headquarters in Wellington. When Judith Collins arrived down in Greymouth, she was ready to round up anyone criticizing Gary Knowles, but she never admitted he was simply following a script. The Police in Wellington were completely unaware of Mines Rescue Unit, who were sitting right by the mine. That was where the real incompetence lay, and Judith Collins was only to willing to cover it up.
     • aerobubble 4.5.1

       19 January 2014 at 1:17 pm

       Its possible to put six propellers on a circuit board and herd sheep. Its easy and cheap to place six toy tank tracks on a circuit board and send it up the mine (and have some spare to attach a rope and pull them out should they fail). But we don’t because the National politicians are exposed on this issue, it was their policy around safety. Their ideology around profit at all costs. Their inane mining will grow NZ when we don’t have a empty desert like Australia’s mine industry has.
5. karol 5

   19 January 2014 at 8:35 am

   Treating or not? Matt McCarten reckons that Dotcom’s party would not have contravened electoral law:

   Dotcom’s political inexperience is also showing. His party launch was planned to be an extravaganza. It was cancelled abruptly on the pretext that it contravened electoral laws preventing bribing voters.

   That is simply not true. Paying for a party launch is permitted. It is silly to say it’s bribery. Maybe part of the problem is that Dotcom has employed an American political consultant, James Kimmer, to advise him. Former mayoral candidate John Palino learned the hard way that involving outsiders to run his political strategies wasn’t the smartest idea.

   I thought the problem wasn;t that it was meant to be a political party launch, but that it was providing free entertainment as PR for the Internet party launch….?
   • andy (the other one) 5.1

     19 January 2014 at 8:41 am

     He also claims that Palino had ‘outsiders’ run his strategy.

     BBzzzztt! Wrong. He had the Slater Gang running his (Palino) strategy, the ultimate insiders. McCarten wake up.

     What people constantly overlook in the Internet Party start up fiasco is that DotCom was going to hoodwink a lot of people into joining his party, by having a party. Scumbags like the Slater Gang would instantly be complaining to Police and other officials trying to scupper Dotcom, all at the behest of the 9th Floor.

     Dotcom is out to get Key, and they will do ANYTHING to stop that.
     • karol 5.1.1

       19 January 2014 at 9:02 am

       Yes, it’s looking like Teams Key and Slater/Collins don’t want to be exposed by a KDC-led party. But also, the Mana Party supported by Matt McCarten must fear that the IntP will cut into their potential votes – both hoping to pull in some votes from the politically disengaged, non-voting young.

       I see McCarten also takes a little swipe at the IntParty maybe pulling in some “soft Green Party” votes. Kind of a dog whistle for Greens appealing to “blue greens” and not really being a left party.
       • bad12 5.1.1.1

         19 January 2014 at 9:20 am

         Speaking of the Mana Party, a big ups to the Party in Auckland for helping get together six shipping containers of food and other basics for the cyclone ravaged people of Tonga,

         Basic bread and butter stuff with a lotta heart thrown in is why i am definitely,(while the Green Party is polling high),considering casting a vote for the Mana Party in 2014 in an attempt to have 2 or 3 Mana Party Parliamentarians emerge from the 2014 election which would pretty much ensure Slippery and His Ministers are made redundant…
         • phillip ure 5.1.1.1.1

           19 January 2014 at 10:08 am

           @ bad..

           labour need to come to their senses..

           ..and to learn how to live/co-exist under mmp..

           ..and to not oppose harawira/sykes getting their seats..

           ..and of course the counter-deal mana could offer..

           ..would be not to oppose labour in key marginal-seats for them..

           ..where a strong mana candidate could seriously eat into labour votes..

           ..and could decide the seat..

           (bradford standing in waitakere…as just one potent example..

           ..and that isn’t the only one..)

           ..labour still seem to operate under a f.p.p.-mentality..

           ..of go out and try to slaughter all yr potential coalition allies..

           ..utter fucken madness..

           ..on so so many levels..

           ..(and to show you how far off the ball labour are..

           ..they are currently strutting around boasting to their followers/supporters that they will take back all the maori seats..

           ..what utter fucken idjits they are…eh..?..)

           ..just engaging their brains for a short time..would surely show labour the follies of their current/apparent master-plan..?

           ..you’d think..?

           phillip ure..
           • bad12 5.1.1.1.1.1

             19 January 2014 at 5:12 pm

             Phillip,cannot disagree with any of your analysis and i think i have commented a number of times in the same vein,

             Indeed, i have a view that Labour have an excellent chance of taking back both Te Tai Hauauru and Tamaki Makaurau in 2014,(in saying so i may be gauging too lightly the Mana Party support in Auckland),

             It then would seem,in the light of ‘the rights’ happy gerry mandering only common sense for Labour and Mana to agree on these two seats with the Mana Party agreeing not to stand candidates and Labour agreeing not to contest Waiariki where Flavell has a 1000 vote majority over Annette Sykes,

             MMP demands of the major political parties that ‘they’ make accommodations with smaller parties while always looking for ways to foster and grow those parties, National seem to have grasped this little fact while a lot of Labour seem to be mired in the FPP past with an attitude that certain seats and constituencies are theirs as of right…
             • phillip ure …

               19 January 2014 at 6:17 pm

               @ bad..

               i am also looking to the greens to not be ‘spoilers’..

               ..(they do have an unfortunate history of doing that..)

               ..and why don’t labour come to an arrangement with the greens..

               ..over/for an electorate seat..?

               ..why can’t these people (on all sides..)..why is it they cannot seem to able to see more than five minutes ahead..?

               ..we all want a long-term progressive coalition here in new zealand..

               ..and it is up to these different players..

               ..to pack away their historical-bullshit/feuds/whatever..

               ..and to get those ducks lined up in a row..

               ..the ongoing spectacle of the centre-left/progressive-factions cannabilising each other..

               ..is most unedifying..

               phillip ure..
               • bad12 …

                 19 January 2014 at 7:09 pm

                 Phillip, yes i agree the Green Party need carefully consider how thye approach ‘some’ of the electorate seats, and i believe that there is ongoing analysis of this within the Party hierarchy,(the genesis of the recent spat the Party had with David Hay being part of this),

                 Lolz,Noooooo, my belief is that in the MMP enviroment there is no need for a party such as the Greens to bother with electorate seats, i cannot envisage a time when the Green Party cannot muster more than 5% of the vote,(unless in say a coalition with Labour they allowed more of the Neo-Lib agenda to flourish simply to get bums on the heated seats of the Ministerial limo’s), so chasing electorate seats even if one were offered with a nod and a wink from Labour seems to me to be not the best use of resources,

                 Using such resources to chase, in the provincial cities, young born to rule National Party voters with a belief in ecological/enviromental issues so as to convince as many of them as possible to split their votes National electorate and Green party i believe would be a far more efficacious use of such resources…
                 • phillip ure …

                   19 January 2014 at 7:39 pm

                   @ bad..i’m kinda agnostic on the green electorate seat idea..

                   ..i just saw it as a clear sign to voters that these centre-left components will be able to work together in parliament..

                   ..and as for the future/growth of those smaller parties..

                   ..that will largely depend on how they behave/perform while in government..

                   ..phillip ure..
         • alwyn 5.1.1.1.2

           19 January 2014 at 2:49 pm

           Two seats for Mana might be within reach. They, like ACT, were only about 4,000 votes short last time. However getting to three would mean getting twice as many votes as in the last election and looking at the polls would suggest that this is likely to be out of reach.

           There isn’t any real sense in switching your vote from Green to Mana if your aim is to get a left wing Government as if as every new vote for Mana would merely be one less vote for the Green Party. Hence if Green party voters are the ones making the switch it simply means that an extra seat for Mana would mean one less seat for the Green Party. The “Green Party is polling high” has nothing to do with it.

           Why not stick to the party you really support? If nothing else a Government comprising only Labour and the Green Party would likely be more stable than one made up of a lot of small parties.
           • bad12 5.1.1.1.2.1

             19 January 2014 at 5:36 pm

             Ha ha ha, Alwyn, you are not on Slippery the Prime Ministers payroll by any chance are you, your WRONG political analysis coupled with your last paragraph reek and drip as the writings of a snake-oil salesman,

             Point(1), who would have expected a red-necked wing-nut to totally exclude Maori voters from their ‘thinking’ when it comes to the Mana Party,

             Check out the Ikaroa-Rawhiti by-election and the inroads the Mana party made to the vote of the Maori Party in that particular contest,

             Do you really think that the disintergration of the Maori Party likely to be completed at the 2014 election will mean that Labour will have all those voters return to the Labour Party fold,(more fool you if you do), a huge swathe of Maori Party voters as shown by the Ikaroa-Rawhiti by-election are going to transfer their vote to the Mana Party in 2014,

             Point(2), The Green party vote, in which election has not the Green Party raised it’s share of the Party Vote, as a National Party tool Alwyn it is fact you who should be worried about the upward trajectory of the Green Party where in the National held electorates in Auckland City between elections 2008 and 2011 the Green Party managed to double it’s share of the Party vote,(yes even in the ACT held Epsom),

             Should such an excellent result again transpire in those Auckland National held electorates for the Green Party or the same doubling of the Green Party vote occur in the National held provincial electorates then it’s ‘see you later Slippery time’,

             You have Alwyn no understanding of what a ‘tactical voter’ is simply presupposing that i/we voted Green Party in 2011 and any deviation from this will result in a ‘loss’ of votes for the Party,

             i am a Green Party member who happily admits to ‘tactical voting’, i have a budget for ‘political action’ most of which goes toward the Green Parties electoral efforts, see the ‘Point’ now do you Alywyn….
             • alwyn …

               19 January 2014 at 9:57 pm

               My God, how confused can you get?
               What a load of tripe.
               As a simple example, consider your second to last paragraph. If, as you appear to be saying, you voted Green at the last election and propose to switch and vote Mana at the next that is obviously a loss of a vote for the Greens. Everyone else who does the same is another vote lost for the Green party. Still, logic was never a strong point in the views of a Green.
               In terms of Mana they haven’t got more that 1% in any of the Roy Morgan polls in the last six months. They will need to get about 2.3% if they hope to pick up three seats, won’t they? Alternatively they will need 3 electorate seats and that doesn’t seem likely.
               As far as “In which election has not the Green Party raised its share of the party vote” you clearly have a very short memory. In 2002 they got 7% of the vote. In 2005 this DROPPED to 5.3%.
               There, have another try.
               Actually if I was a Green supporter I would worry that Dotcom might attract some support. I think that his natural supporters would comprise young people who either do not vote or who currently vote for the Green party. I don’t think he will so don’t get too fearful.
               • bad12 …

                 20 January 2014 at 12:39 am

                 Yes Alwyn i am sure you are in a state of confusion most of the time, i suggest you read and then re-read that paragraph again slooooowly,

                 Maybe i should have resisted using such a phrase that ‘i being a tactical voter presupposes that i voted Green in 2011,

                 Do you now Get the point Alwyn, if i didn’t vote Green in 2011 then i and those who are of a like mind as tactical voters who vote for the Mana Party this year will result in no loss of vote to the Green Party,

                 As i point out above, my vote to the Green Party is worth, well its worth just one vote, however, if say my budget this year for ‘political activism’ is 500 dollars which for electioneering purposes the Green Party will get then in all reality advertising can be bought with that 500 dollars which will gain the Green Party more than just my one vote,

                 Of course if my 500 donation is used by the Green Party to mount a campaign in the provincial cities currently held by Slippery’s National Government that is as effective as that mounted in the National held Auckland City National held electorates at the 2011 election,(the Green Party doubled its vote in these electorates),then such a donation will definitely have a reward far greater than my
                 one simple vote could garner for them…
                 • alwyn …

                   20 January 2014 at 10:09 am

                   It is a little odd that someone who is a Green Party member but doesn’t vote for the party.
                   Perhaps you know the people on the list to well to want them anywhere near the heated leather seats in the Limos. That would make sense.
                   Giving money to the Mana party would certainly help them. That I do agree with.

                   You do continue to go on about the Green Party “doubling its vote in the National held Auckland electorates”. Can you please provide a reference that justifies this claim? After all we have already seen that you make claims that are not justified by facts, haven’t we? When you claimed that the Green Party vote has increased in evry election we see that was just an example of a furphy wasn’t it?

                   I have done a very quick check on your claim about the “Green Party doubled its vote” in those electorates. On a rough check, and I might have missed out one of the National held Auckland electorates, I find that the Green Party got 21,377 votes in 2008 and 33,756 votes in 2011. That is an increase, not of 100% as you claim, but of 58%. On the other hand looking at the whole country the Green Party went from 157,613 votes to 247,372. This is of course of 57%. There is clearly no real difference between “National held Auckland Electorates” and any others in the country is there?

                   Another wild claim busted, I’m afraid.
                   • bad12 …

                     20 January 2014 at 11:29 am

                     Alwyn, more lies from you, where have i claimed that the Green Party has increased it’s vote at every election,

                     What you take to be claiming that is in fact the question i put,”in which election has not the Green Party vote gone up”,

                     That to you might translate into a claim that the Green Party vote has gone up at every election but in plain English untwisted by the bent of a wing-nut(you), simply asks a question,

                     The doubling of the Green Party party vote in those Auckland electorates held by the National Party also includes Epsom held by act, i am sure you can find the particular government web-page which provides those facts,

                     Lolz, and Lolz again only a 58% increase in that Green Party party vote in the Auckland City electorates held by National between elections 2008 and 2011, that deserves another large LOL and is sure as hell wing-nut heaven pulling defeat from the jaws of victory,

                     Provide the relevant link to how you have arrived at this 58% LOLZ rise in the Green Party party vote and i might just be moved to provide you with the relevant large number of links to all those Auckland City electorates currently held by the National,(and ACT),parties…
                   • alwyn …

                     20 January 2014 at 12:05 pm

                     It is normally the case, when one is asking a question, to put a question mark at the end, isn’t it? Of course you don’t seem to know about such things and the way you wrote it makes it a statement, not a question. You really must try harder.

                     Even if you include Epsom, and that is not of course a National held seat, you only get an increase in the Auckland National and ACT seats of 59% from 2008 to 2011. That is still vastly short of the doubling you keep going on about, isn’t it? Or are you completely innumerate and don’t see any difference between 1.59 and 2.00?

                     Where do I get the results you say? Well they are all in http://www.electionresults.govt.nz

                     I’m sure you can find that website and see that I am right. You can also tell me where you found these numbers that according to you show that the Green Party DOUBLED their vote in those electorates. You have now made that claim three times. Alternatively you can give up and admit that the claim was wrong and that you were lying when you made it.
           • tricledrown 5.1.1.1.2.2

             19 January 2014 at 10:10 pm

             or it would be like dunne and banks and just do what they what they are told.
             alwyn your not even a second rate stirer.
   • veutoviper 5.2

     19 January 2014 at 9:47 am

     I was also unimpressed by Matt’s claim that the party would not have contravened electoral law, considering the amount of press coverage of the Electoral Commission’s advice to KDC’s lawyers.

     For example, NBR have a copy of the email from the Electoral Commission and quoted it in full in this article on Thursday.

     http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/dotcom-pulls-plug-party-db-150735

     The Electoral Commission make it clear in their email, that even if the political party launch was done separately, the entertainment Party could still possibly be considered ‘treating’.

     You will note that Section 217 applies even though (a) the treating may be direct or indirect, (b) at any time, not just during an election period, and (c) apply to every elector and not just the promoter of an event such the Party Party. The Commission remains concerned that the action Kim Dotcom intends to take (limiting the event to his 40th birthday and the –launch of his music album) may not be sufficient to eliminate the risk of the activity falling within the scope of the treating provisions. This is because the event was originally intended to include the Internet Party launch, we understand that the event will be called the Party Party and Kim Dotcom is the leader of the Internet Party. In addition, we understand that the Internet Party’s soft launch was to be scheduled for the same day as the event.*

     The Courts have previously held that the offence of “treating” requires an intention on the part of the person treating to influence the votes of the persons treated.

     The question of intention is an inference of fact which the Court has to draw. If in any case, looking at all the circumstances, the reasonable and probable effect of the alleged treating would be to influence the result of the election, or to influence the votes of individual voters, it might well be inferred that it was the intention of the persons treating that this effect would follow.

     The Commission is concerned that the Party Party may expose both those promoting an attending it to risk of prosecution for treating.

     *PS – I had not read this article or the Electoral Commission’s email before my comment on Friday(?) on The Internet Party post in which I speculated that KDC and Co may have been contemplating still holding the IP launch on the same day, once it became obvious that they could not do it at the PartyParty. Not trying to be ‘smart’, but it would seem my speculation was on the mark. Pheewww. Not that it is of any real importance, anyway.
     • phillip ure 5.2.1

       19 January 2014 at 10:12 am

       @ veuto..

       ..so mccarten is just blowing smoke…

       ..on all levels..?

       phillip ure..
       • veutoviper 5.2.1.1

         19 January 2014 at 10:38 am

         Not sure, Phillip. But I was not impressed with his article overall either. Seemed to be a bit of sour grapes to me. IMO, the Internet Party may appeal to a very different constituency to the Mana Party, but we will not really know until we see the IP’s policies and candidates.

         According to this Herald article today, the launch has been postponed for a month until February 20.

         http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11188725

         The article also seems to imply that they will be taking a very different approach to that proposed in the leaked Bradbury proposal of concentrating on 2 – 3 Auckland electoral seats. Instead, it seems to suggest that they will be going for party votes to get them over the 5% threshold.

         The gloves are already off between KDC and Key, although I haven’t seem Key’s comments on the IP. I gather Key is ‘back in town’ and was (or is) opening Chinese New Year celebrations this weekend.
         • phillip ure 5.2.1.1.1

           19 January 2014 at 2:02 pm

           @ veuto..

           “..we will not really know until we see the IP’s policies and candidates…”

           that is the origin of my smoke-blowing claim..

           ..as none of those ‘pundits’ punditing away..know what those policies are..

           ..so to come out and make these adamant statements..

           ..based on nothing..

           ..move their writings out of the realm of critical-thinking..

           ..and into that other (far more ‘loose’) area..

           ..of orifice-plucking..

           ..and this effort is the second half of a twofer from mccarten..

           ..last week he cast his predictions for the outcome of this years’ election..

           ..and despite the launch/forming of dotcoms’ party being widely heralded..

           ..this (as yet unknown) phenomenon/entity..

           ..didn’t rate a mention in mccartens’ shuffling of the runes..

           ..and thus instantly bouncing that piece out of ‘critical-thinking’..

           ..and slap-bank into orifice-plucking..

           ..(how could it not..?..)

           ..in the past mccarten has written much of note..

           ..(the mccarten archives @ whoar are extensive..

           ..and deservedly so..)

           ..w.t.f. is going on here..?

           ..phillip ure..
           • veutoviper 5.2.1.1.1.1

             19 January 2014 at 4:07 pm

             My’ not sure’ was in relation to your “on all levels”, rather than your ‘just blowing smoke’ . Sorry I did not make that clear. I had also forgotten about his earlier article, so must go back and reread it. I do give Mccarten a bit of slack due to his health problems over recent years.

             Cheers
   • Draco T Bastard 5.3

     19 January 2014 at 12:37 pm

     Free entertainment, free booze and free food at a political launch? Yep, definitely against the law.

     In that article, McCarten is talking out his arse.
6. ianmac 6

   19 January 2014 at 9:32 am

   Surprise. Surprise. ACC manipulated by politicians. In the Press today. Nick Smith? Surely not!

   ” A leaked internal ACC document claims successive governments have manipulated the scheme for their own political ends.

   Produced for former chief executive Ralph Stewart , the document contains a chart showing a correlation between the government in office and the inflation-adjusted payments made by ACC.

   According to the document, Need for Change, ACC is “demonstrably inconsistent” and claimants are treated differently according to “political cycles”.

   A former ACC director aid the swings in policy were achieved through governments appointing the ACC board, which instructs chief executives what is required of them. …….”

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/9626111/ACC-payments-manipulated
7. Grumpy 7

   19 January 2014 at 9:53 am

   In case you missed it….prime example of how loosely left politicians hold their principles. Big ups to the Kiwi student that asked the obvious question though….
   http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/
   • Paul 7.1

     19 January 2014 at 9:59 am

     For once I agree with you.
     It’s tweedledee and tweedledum politics.
     Most parliamentary left groups betrayed their people 30 years ago.
     Hence the 800 000 non-voters.
     Most Labour parties are simply offering neo-liberalism lite.
     • Grumpy 7.1.1

       19 January 2014 at 10:07 am

       Gillard is angling for a UN job. Rum our is that she is likely to replace Helen Clark as concern builds within the UN at the current performance of the UNDP
       • phillip ure 7.1.1.1

         19 January 2014 at 10:17 am

         @ grumpy..

         wow..!..are you saying..that clark..

         ..after her sterling/stellar performance here in new zealand in fighting poverty…

         ..hasn’t been able to repeat her performance here..there..?

         ..or are you saying that actually she has replicated her (actual/real) efforts/results here..there..

         ..and hence the widespread disquiet at her performance/results..

         ..there..?

         ..phillip ure..
         • Grumpy 7.1.1.1.1

           19 January 2014 at 10:24 am

           http://undpwatch.blogspot.co.nz
           • phillip ure 7.1.1.1.1.1

             19 January 2014 at 11:34 am

             @ grumpy..

             heh..!..you rely on fox-news..?

             ..you do know they have been shown/proven..to often lie thru their teeth..?

             ..eh..?

             phillip ure..
       • alwyn 7.1.1.2

         19 January 2014 at 3:03 pm

         I think that whoever has come up with this rumour should get the classic Darryl Kerrigan response in the movie “The Castle”. In other words “Tell him he’s dreaming”.

         Helen’s second, current, term won’t expire until around the middle of 2017. The UN has no record of replacing people in senior roles before the expiry date, and isn’t likely to start now.

         Additionally of course there is no point in Gillard “angling for a UN job, at least at the level of Clark’s one unless she gets strong backing from her own Government. Do you really think that Abbott would spend significant political credit on Gillard’s dreams?
   • Pascal's bookie 7.2

     19 January 2014 at 10:23 am

     Lol, that article is a prime example of how loosely right wing spokesbots lie their arses off to attack the left. Did you Check out the rest of what she said?

     That equality between the sexes should mean that women and men contribute equally to civic institutions, and that where that isn’t happening for structural reasons then that society will be missing out, obviously, on the benefits that would be derived from the talents of the excluded groups.

     You did check eh? nah. Too hard. You just saw some fuckstick with a quote that reinforced your belief, so didn’t want to check. Funny that.
     • Grumpy 7.2.1

       19 January 2014 at 10:37 am

       “That equality between the sexes should mean that women and men contribute equally to civic institutions, and”
       Take another look at the audience. The old Julia would be screaming “misogyny”.
       • Pascal's bookie 7.2.1.1

         19 January 2014 at 11:03 am

         How desperate are you? ffs

         was the hit piece you linked to an accurate representation of her answer, or not?
8. Castleberg 8

   19 January 2014 at 10:25 am

   Tongan artist John Vea celebrates migrant workers, and denounces the theft of their labour power by palangi capitalists:
   http://eyecontactsite.com/2014/01/planting-plaster-john-vea-and-the-art-of-migrant-l
   • Tim 8.1

     19 January 2014 at 1:34 pm

     …… there goes one smart fella!
     In today’s cynical world of politics, let’s hope Labour (and the left generally*) sees an opportunity (though I’m not holding my breathe).
     * when I say “the left” – it’s in the context that the pendulum has swung so far right over the past few decades that I actually mean ‘centre’ – unfortunately we’ve allowed the language and the entire socio-political spectrum to have been hijacked. The good thing about pendulums is that they swing in both directions and the right axis is damn near at its limit)
9. Morrissey 9

   19 January 2014 at 10:29 am

   Ten disturbing Lookalikes

   “I do not know which is more annoying, the real Goodfellow or the reflection.”
   —Julie Kagawa, The Iron Knight

   1.) Tony Bliar, envoy of evil….
   http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/20/134320-004-89969A8B.jpg
   …looks uncannily like Joachim von Ribbentrop….
   http://www.nndb.com/people/691/000022625/tony-blair-2-sized.jpg

   2.) Hell’s manservant Alistair Campbell also looks like Ribbentrop….
   http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/uploads/pics/Ribbentrop.jpg
   http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/1/10/1263163866357/Alistair-Campbell-002.jpg

   3.) “Blair’s brain” Peter Mandelson….
   http://jspivey.wikispaces.com/file/view/goebels.jpg/33777397/goebels.jpg
   …and Joseph Goebbels….
   http://www.topnews.in/files/Peter-Mandelson.jpg

   4.) Serial liar and war criminal Jack Straw….
   http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02147/Heinrich-Himmler_2147070a.jpg
   ….and Heinrich Himmler….
   http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_UF0sw_aqMcc/TNwkrnU9CoI/AAAAAAAAAFo/3OfOVHNctG4/s1600/jack-straw-%25247008251%2524300.jpg

   5.) N.J. Governor Chris Christie….
   http://www.fijisun.com.fj/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Cameron-Slater.gif
   …and Cameron “Whaleoil” Slater….
   http://patdollard.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Chris-Christie.jpg

   6.) Alleged kiddy-whacker Michael Laws….
   http://media.apnonline.com.au/img/media/images/2010/11/03/mason_460x23046423.feature-image_t300.jpg
   ….and convicted kiddy-whacker Jimmy Mason….
   http://www.odt.co.nz/files/story/2011/11/michael_laws_4ecad28ba2.JPG

   7.) Science-denier and media whore Screaming Lord Monckton….
   http://static.stuff.co.nz/1233108507/032/238032.jpg
   …and media whore Tim Shadbolt….
   http://www.sourcewatch.org/images/thumb/2/27/Monckton.jpg/235px-Monckton.jpg

   8.) Knife enthusiast Garth McVicar….
   http://www.celwalls.com/large/201302/3094.jpg
   …and the man that Radio New Zealand continues to describe as a “victims’ advocate”….
   http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9zyxpgQDRrQ/UPsXz7-cPiI/AAAAAAAAHQ0/BSG6xV2R3S4/s1600/Garth%2BMcVicar%2BAsshole.jpg
   http://www.newdressaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/1121chucky.jpg

   9.) Notorious right wing blogger and shill for scofflaw regimes David Farrar….
   http://media.web.britannica.com/eb-media/19/29919-004-90FD4D30.jpg
   ….and notorious Soviet commissar Lavrenty Beria…..
   http://www.listener.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/David-Farrar1.jpg

   10.) The next education minister Chris Hipkins….
   http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/fi/6/6e/Chucky-the-doll.jpg
   ….and the out-of-control doll Chucky….
   http://arntrnassets.mediaspanonline.com/radio/n00/882607/David-Shearer-shears-Chris-Hipkins-for-cancer-27feb2013–DavidShearer-s-twitter.jpg
   • Te Reo Putake 9.1

     19 January 2014 at 12:03 pm

     Child abuser update No 94:

     a) M Lhaws. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11188767

     b) J Saville: http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/jan/18/jimmy-savile-abused-1000-victims-bbc
     • Morrissey 9.1.1

       19 January 2014 at 12:13 pm

       Thanks for that, Te Reo. Even before the terrible revelations about his crimes, I never got Jimmy Savile. He seemed devoid of talent, and never said anything funny.

       As for Laws, he’s beneath contempt. I wonder how many hours, how many DAYS, he has spent railing at Māori “ferals” and “lowlifes” for doing just what concerned hospital staff now accuse him of doing.
       • Te Reo Putake 9.1.1.1

         19 January 2014 at 12:18 pm

         It’s not just an accusation, Moz. He’s publicly admitted having spanked their “bottoms”. Bottoms; a Savile like use of the language to diminish the crime. What a perv.
         • Morrissey 9.1.1.1.1

           19 January 2014 at 12:25 pm

           He’s publicly admitted having spanked their “bottoms”…
           I’ll bet it didn’t stop there. That’s how the Kahuis started out, of course—smacking their children, just as the likes of Laws and Bob McCoskrie and Christine (Spankin’) Rankin recommend.
           • marty mars 9.1.1.1.1.1

             19 January 2014 at 7:43 pm

             I would ask that you stop using the very sad case of the Kahui children to push your barrow and i ask simply because there are many many cases of child abuse and child killing in this country (some not involving tangata whenua too, believe it or not) and that case is just one. I am not trying to excuse what happened or the fact that it did happen and i’m not asking anyone to forget that it happened, I just think your continued stamping of this one is a bit overdone, and i do not think you can say “that is how they started out” because i don’t think you really know that.
           • tricledrown 9.1.1.1.1.2

             19 January 2014 at 8:36 pm

             Morrissey I get laws is running for the colon craig party,
             he.s been in every other right wing party.
       • tricledrown 9.1.1.2

         19 January 2014 at 8:34 pm

         Laws now can call himself feral for real.
         wasn’t he caught having an affair with a solo mum on methamphetamine.
     • David H 9.1.2

       19 January 2014 at 1:23 pm

       Where’s Colin Craig? At least he admitted it.
   • joe90 9.2

     19 January 2014 at 2:44 pm

     Governor Chris Christie….

     …and his doppelgänger…..
10. Colonial Viper 10

    19 January 2014 at 10:39 am

    Impoverishment in the Appalachians: living high on drugs every day, hiring prostitutes for a $12.99 case of Pepsi, being declared mentally ill as the only means of economic survival

    The Appalachians are a region made up of east side inland states of the USA, stretching from Pennsylvania through to parts of Georgia, Alabama and Mississippi in the south.

    It is, economically and socially as Chris Hedges terms it, a “sacrifice zone” which the US Government and the corporate elite have discarded in order to make larger corporate profits exporting its industries and jobs elsewhere.

    The area is only a 5 to 6 hour drive from the millionaire congressmen of Washington DC. The article also explicitly mentions the TPPA.

    It works like this: Once a month, the debit-card accounts of those receiving what we still call food stamps are credited with a few hundred dollars — about $500 for a family of four, on average — which are immediately converted into a unit of exchange, in this case cases of soda. On the day when accounts are credited, local establishments accepting EBT cards — and all across the Big White Ghetto, “We Accept Food Stamps” is the new E pluribus unum – are swamped with locals using their public benefits to buy cases and cases — reports put the number at 30 to 40 cases for some buyers — of soda. Those cases of soda then either go on to another retailer, who buys them at 50 cents on the dollar, in effect laundering those $500 in monthly benefits into $250 in cash — a considerably worse rate than your typical organized-crime money launderer offers — or else they go into the local black-market economy, where they can be used as currency in such ventures as the dealing of unauthorized prescription painkillers — by “pillbillies,” as they are known at the sympathetic establishments in Florida that do so much business with Kentucky and West Virginia that the relevant interstate bus service is nicknamed the “OxyContin Express.” A woman who is intimately familiar with the local drug economy suggests that the exchange rate between sexual favors and cases of pop — some dealers will accept either — is about 1:1, meaning that the value of a woman in the local prescription-drug economy is about $12.99 at Walmart prices.

    Coming soon, to a white “advanced” nation near you.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-01-18/vast-stretches-impoverished-appalachia-look-they-have-been-through-war
    • xavier 10.1

      19 January 2014 at 11:02 am

      Thanks for the link CV. So why isn’t labour unequivocal in rejecting TPP? Why support in principle? I have heard DC say twice that he learned ”how the world works” while on overseas postings as an MFAT official. He didn’t develop his political worldview in his own country.
      Only their purpose is mad.
    • joe90 10.2

      19 January 2014 at 12:28 pm

      Krugman.

      National Review has an actually interesting report by Kevin Williamson on the state of Appalachia, providing a valuable portrait of the region’s woes — plus an account of how people turn food stamps fungible by converting them into soda. But the piece also has a moral: the big problem, it argues, is the way government aid creates dependency. It’s the Paul Ryan notion of the safety net as a “hammock” that makes life too easy for the poor.

      But do the facts about Appalachia actually support this view? No, they don’t. Indeed, even the facts presented in the article don’t support it.

      Williamson dismisses suggestions that economic factors might be driving social collapse:

      http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/11/a-hammock-in-kentucky/
      • Colonial Viper 10.2.1

        19 January 2014 at 12:42 pm

        Krugman makes some good points. But a chart of unemployment rate in that county, as he uses it, is also very misleading.

        Once your unemployment insurance expires, you are no longer counted as being “unemployed.” This is the kind of cruel game that is being played by the elites on the ordinary people in those areas.

        They make your suffering, and indeed you, totally officially invisible.

        NB Hedges and Sacco spent up to two years on the ground, living amongst and interviewing the people most affected in the sacrifice zones, while researching and writing the book “Days of Destruction, Days of Revolt.”

        While there are many good things to say about Krugman, I dare say that he hasn’t spent even one day doing that.
      • joe90 10.2.2

        19 January 2014 at 1:16 pm

        To be fair Krugman’s hammock in Kentucky line is responding to Williamson’s assertion that In effect, welfare has made Appalachia into a big and sparsely populated housing project — too backward to thrive, but just comfortable enough to keep the underclass in place. There is no cure for poverty, because there is no cause of poverty — poverty is the natural condition of the human animal and he, Williamson, continues with Digging coal is hard work, farming is hard work, timbering is hard work — so hard that the best and brightest long ago packed up for Cincinnati or Pittsburgh or Memphis or Houston. See, it’s all their fault.
        • xavier 10.2.2.1

          19 January 2014 at 4:02 pm

          The Williamson piece actually doesn’t bear close scrutiny. On abortion:

          ”Kentucky is No. 19 in the ranking of states by teen pregnancy rates, but it is No. 8 when it comes to teen birth rates, according to the Guttmacher Institute, its young women being somewhat less savage than most of their counterparts across the country. Kentucky and West Virginia have abortion rates that are one-fourth those of Rhode Island or Connecticut, and one-fifth that of Florida. More marriage, less abortion: Not exactly the sort of thing out of which conservative indictments are made.”
          Less savage??

          The american decay book I’m looking forward to reading this year, when I track it down, is: The Unwinding: An Inner History of the New America, by George Packer.
          • NZ Femme 10.2.2.1.1

            20 January 2014 at 8:03 am

            According to the Guttmacher Institute, as at 2008, 98% of Counties within Kentucky had no abortion provider.

            http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/sfaa/kentucky.html

            In contrast, a quick search brings up 94 adoption industry organisations for the State.

            http://directory.adoption.com/domestic/Kentucky,1,50,1.html

            Bear in mind that the average cost for a domestic adoption in the USA is $35,000 – $45,000. Babies. They’re a Billion $$$ industry over there.
11. weka 11

    19 January 2014 at 11:33 am

    From the Archdruid, facing the resource-depleted, powerdown, de-industrial future: seven sustainable technologies

    1. Organic intensive gardening (grow lots of food with techniques that also build soil and don’t need inputs from far away).

    2. Solar thermal technologies (passive solar for heating, cooking, hot water etc)

    3. Sustainable wood heating (coppicing for firewood, rocket stoves for massively more efficiency. JMG doesn’t mention this, but burning wood can be carbon neutral)

    4. Sustainable health care (both mainstream and alternative systems need to get their shit together on this)

    5. Letterpress printing and its related technologies (cultures with block printing retained their knowledge through collapse, cultures reliant on hand-writing didn’t).

    6. Low-tech shortwave radio (one of the post-civilisation techs we could keep going and make good use of)

    7. Computer-free mathematics (we need to preserve these skills before they are lost, how to build bridges, navigate, do accounting etc without computers)

    Those of my readers who want to do something constructive about the harsh future ahead thus could do worse than to adopt one or more of the technologies I’ve outlined, and make a personal commitment to learning, practicing, preserving, and transmitting that technology into the future. Those who decide that some technology I haven’t listed deserves the same treatment, and are willing to make an effort to get it into the waiting hands of the future, will get no argument from me. The important thing is to get off the couch and do something, because the decline is already under way and time is getting short.

    http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.co.nz/2014/01/seven-sustainable-technologies.html

    Any suggestions of other sustainable technologies? (in the real sense of the word sustainable eg on timescales of millennia they are not dependent on fossil fuels, they’re local, they don’t pollute, they contribute more than they consume…).

    The letterpress one made me think alot. NZ could learn much from Maori in terms of oral tradition skills too.
    • Colonial Viper 11.1

      19 January 2014 at 12:43 pm

      +1

      The 4th technology you listed – sustainable healthcare – is one that I am very much interested in.

      JMG is always a good, practical read.
      • weka 11.1.1

        19 January 2014 at 4:02 pm

        Me too, although I tend to think that when both mainstream and alternative get thrown in the thick of it, many are going to be in for a sharp surprise.
    • Pasupial 11.2

      19 January 2014 at 1:19 pm

      Weka

      #3 sustainable wood is one that could be a major benefit for NZ. I’ve been doing a bit of background reading to Neville Auton’s speech at the 2014 NZ Oil Free Future Conference in Dunedin last Saturday. What he said then seems to stack up.

      The bio-coal produced from wood torrification (heating till hydrophobic) would allow for substitution of coking coal in steel manufacture (a role originally played by charcoal). Gasified wood as a heating and automative fuel also has potential (but requires infrastructure investment).

      When a tree is cut down presently in NZ plantations, a large proportion of it’s biomass is left to rot and only the straight logs removed from site. That waste could be turned into a fuel source worth 8 times the cash value of the logs themselves. Auton claimed that a 27 year rotation cycle of pine plantation planting & harvesting would be sustainable. Though this would vary with latitude and topography; so 25-30 years depending on location might be a better characterisation.
      • weka 11.2.1

        19 January 2014 at 4:11 pm

        That’s interesting Pasupial, although I would see that as a transition tech rather than a sustainable one. What’s the EROEI? (ie esp what is needed to run the torrification plants?). I can also see it being used for small scale, imperative manufacture or transport fuel, rather than the huge consumption manufacturing we do now.

        Not convinced monocropping pine is the best way to go, but we should make use of our expertise in this area in the meantime. But also develop better polyculture forestry (knowledge, skills, forests). And let the wilding pines grow into managed forestry.

        Do you know if there is anything online from the summit? I couldn’t see anything obvious on the two websites.
    • Rosie 11.3

      19 January 2014 at 4:33 pm

      “7. Computer-free mathematics (we need to preserve these skills before they are lost, how to build bridges, navigate, do accounting etc without computers)”

      Any person who right now is in their early to mid 40’s and older, who is employed as a CAD designer for an engineering company will have trained and worked with pre computer technology, ie, the drawing board and drawing instruments. Prior to the introduction of CAD software all engineering design was manually calculated, and it wasn’t even that long ago, not even a generation ago!

      There’s your bridge builders, sewer system designers and all other necessary infrastructure design, right there. Just as long as society and governments are prepared for the future, young people can be trained.

      I would also suggest that folks consider their reliance upon technology and how this could potentially weaken their resilience. No GPS? hope you can read a map. If you’re sailing , you may need to navigate by the stars ( I know a retired sea captain who can do this) No smartphone? Hope you have enough comms skills to engage with your neighbour. No food? Hope you know how to grow food from seed. (hmm gotta learn that one, and that’s if TPPA doesn’t allow Monsanto to be the sole supplier of GE terminator technology crop seed to NZ or some weird shit like that)

      Computers have only been on our planet for a relatively short time. We’ve got enough smarts to get through without them, especially when you consider the great civilisations that have gone before us.
      • weka 11.3.1

        19 January 2014 at 5:39 pm

        mid 40s and older… so we have maybe 30 years to make sure that the knowledge survives and is transferrable. That’s not a huge amount of time, esp if those skills are no longer being taught independently of computers.
      • Colonial Viper 11.3.2

        20 January 2014 at 9:57 am

        Computers have only been on our planet for a relatively short time. We’ve got enough smarts to get through without them, especially when you consider the great civilisations that have gone before us.

        Great civilisations often lose their skills in declines for centuries before regaining or relearning them.
    • Stuart Munro 11.4

      20 January 2014 at 4:25 am

      Lacquer – longest lived and strongest all natural composite materials technology. Requires: temperate forest trees (Toxicodendron verniciflua).
      • weka 11.4.1

        20 January 2014 at 9:52 am

        Nice!
12. Molly 12

    19 January 2014 at 11:57 am

    Surprising anonymous editorial in today’s Herald: Your vote is not for trading

    I’ve got used to usual themes from those editorials but this one refers to the Epsom seat as a rort:

    “The system’s designers expected most voters to give the second vote to the candidate of their preferred party and, left alone, that is what the most do. But National voters in Epsom have been urged to use their electorate vote “strategically” to give the centre-right at least one more seat than it strictly deserves.

    The polls are finally balanced between National and a possible Labour-led coalition, so National is anxious to repeat this rort in Epsom and maybe in a few other seats.”

    And the final paragraph:
    “This could be the year that voters rebel against these machinations and resolve to vote as their minds and hearts are inclined. The fact is nobody knows the result in advance. Manipulative strategies can have perverse outcomes. Better that we vote honestly.”

    “Vote” and “honestly” in the same sentence in the Herald?
    Still want to know who writes these things, but today it is for a different reason entirely.
    • karol 12.1

      19 January 2014 at 7:03 pm

      Thanks, Molly – interesting.

      The polls are finally balanced between National and a possible Labour-led coalition

      Eh? “finely”, surely?!
13. Will@Welly 13

    19 January 2014 at 12:16 pm

    Cameroon Brewer heard on Nat Radio questioning cost of security guards present when Len Brown speaks. Essentially to stop hecklers getting too close. We saw what happened in Christchurch when one rival tried to disrupt Liane Dalziel’s opening campaign. So imagine Len having to “defend” his turf everytime he tries to speak.
    The real question that needs asking is why does John Key need so many in his entourage even when he’s surrounded by “friends”? A bit of an overkill, or is the man a real putsy?
    • Tim 13.1

      19 January 2014 at 12:24 pm

      Pure and simple: Image and malignant narcissistic ego ! It makes him look presidential.

      (i.e. as to the size of his enterage)
      • Will@Welly 13.1.1

        19 January 2014 at 12:28 pm

        Yeah, but taking them to Antarctica, and to Hawaii!!
        A rogue penguin, maybe, and what are they supposed to do in Hawaii, sun, surf, and golf!!
        • Tim 13.1.1.1

          19 January 2014 at 1:46 pm

          Yep …. quite pathetic eh? That’s more about their sense of entitlement and ‘perks for the bois’ though.
          I find it amusing at times (funny if it wasn’t so serious) given my various extended family/working-life contacts with some of them. Like various chauffeurs whose new bathrooms fell off the back of Wellington Hospital Board trucks; or spooks who were instructed on ‘political correctness about “murrays”‘; or…. the examples are countless.
          Ekshly – as funny as farts really given one in particular’s revelations prior to his (self-inflicted) death
    • chris73 13.2

      19 January 2014 at 2:30 pm

      http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/key-assaulted-waitangi-2464337
14. Draco T Bastard 14

    19 January 2014 at 4:51 pm

    Jon Stewart: Bullshit Mountain poster

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