Open mike 19/10/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:38 am, October 19th, 2013 - 202 comments
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202 comments on “Open mike 19/10/2013 ”

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  1. AsleepWhileWalking 1
    19 October 2013 at 7:52 am

    For the love of cows, please make a submission!

    The National Animal Welfare Advisory Committee (NAWAC) today released its recommendations about the welfare and housing of dairy cows. The draft code allows for the year round indoor confinement of dairy cows.

    “NAWAC’s recommendations will condemn thousands of dairy cows to a life in crowded sheds on concrete floors. The animals will never walk on grass or experience life outdoors,” says SAFE Executive Director Hans Kriek. “NAWAC once again fails to uphold the principles of New Zealand’s animal welfare legislation and is legalising this country’s newest form of factory farming.”

    “The Animal Welfare Act requires that animals be able to display their normal behaviour. Research shows that dairy cows graze between five and ten hours per day yet bizarrely NAWAC appears not to recognize grazing as an essential behavioural need. This is utterly ridiculous and brings into question the competence of this committee.”

    SAFE is concerned that the proposed changes to the code of welfare for dairy cows will lead to a rapid intensification of the dairy industry and will result in increased suffering for the cows. In general, cows farmed indoors suffer from higher levels of mastitis and lameness than cows that have access to pasture.

    TAKE ACTION

    SAFE urges the public to speak out against the indoor housing of dairy cows by making a simple submission to the Ministry for Primary Industries.
    Submissions close 3 December and should be sent to: awsubmission@mpi.govt.nz
    or

    NAWAC Secretary
    Animal Welfare
    Ministry for Primary Industries
    PO Box 2526
    Wellington 6140

    Points to remember when making your submission:

    • Grazing in a paddock is normal behaviour, and cows should be allowed to do it.
    • Cows should not be confined for extended periods of time.
    • Cows should be given shelter, as long as they are allowed to leave.

    To read the full Consultation on Changes to the Dairy Cattle Code of Welfare 2010 visit http://www.biosecurity.govt.nz

    • Saarbo 1.1
      19 October 2013 at 9:00 am

      The other side of this unfortunately is effluent running into our waterways. Herd homes can take cows off pasture, so there is a real positive side to this as well. Personally i think Herd homes may be an important factor in cleaning up our water ways at the same time as protecting our $15 billion dairy exports. Its a tough one though, cows in paddocks are preferable but they are killing our waterways. What are the other options?

      • weka 1.1.1
        19 October 2013 at 9:57 am

        Cows aren’t killing our waterways. Industrial dairy companies are, and regional councils are letting them. In general the public are letting them too.

        Other options? Prioritise water over profit via regulation and legislation (regional councils, and the government should have a role in this too). If big business wants to make money, why let it do it at the expense of everyone else?

        Adopt sustainable farming practices (whole range of options there). Factory farming cows is completely unecessary and is a step in completely the wrong direction (takes us away from sustainability). It will also create other problems in addition to the increased suffering of the animals. Putting alot of animals closely together in an indoor space creates health problems that require increasing technical interventions that have flow on effects (increased antibiotic use would be my first guess, and all the problems that go with that).

        People who care about the environment (ie the waterways) need to look at the whole situation, not just the isolated bits.

        • Draco T Bastard 1.1.1.1
          19 October 2013 at 11:21 am

          +1

        • Saarbo 1.1.1.2
          19 October 2013 at 2:04 pm

          Herd homes are quite different to hens/pigs etc, the cows are free to walk around very large sheds, this is not factory farming. From an animal health point of view my research shows that they have 25% less lameness and not sure about mastitis. But the big thing about Herd homes is that they stop the cows pissing and shitting on the paddocks, this effluent is what is fucking up our water ways. There is also an amount of waterways pollution from nitrogen and phosphate fertilisers, but most of the waterways pollution comes from effluent. The effluent from the herd homes is then reapplied to the land scientifically to reduce the need for synthetic nitrogens and also to optimise its utilisation so that there is minimal run off into the waterways.

          Wekka, Im not sure what you mean by “Industrial dairy companies are killing our waterways”??? Its the cows shitting and pissing on the paddocks, simple as that.

          • weka 1.1.1.2.1
            19 October 2013 at 3:08 pm

            We put the cows there Saarbo, no point in blaming the cows. It’s a new phenomenon, all this shit in the water. The cows didn’t just waltz up and take over teh country side, did they. Who put them there? Who let that happen?

            “From an animal health point of view my research shows that they have 25% less lameness and not sure about mastitis.”

            25% less lameness than what?

            “Herd homes are quite different to hens/pigs etc, the cows are free to walk around very large sheds, this is not factory farming.”

            But they’re still locked in right? And they still have to stand in their own shit? And the farmers have to manage health and disease differently? What is the floor made from, concrete?

            What are they being fed?

            The big shed farm proposal in the McKenzie planned to keep 18,000 cows in stalls (not sure what’s happened with that).

            Keep pushing the water is more important than animal welfare line and expect a big fight from a number of quarters.

            • Saarbo 1.1.1.2.1.1
              19 October 2013 at 4:12 pm

              Im not sure about the Mc kenzie proposal, 18000 cows housed sounds ugly, thats not what I am supporting here. Personally my belief is that any farm above 650 cows becomes to difficult to manage and ends up too hard on the people working on them, seldom the owners. that is why so many farms are using immigrants.

              Herd homes are pretty new in NZ, but the ones I looked at the Field days were for farms in the 300 to 1000 cows and I was impressed with the way they dealt with effluent. They will provide a pretty good solution to the problem with water ways, which I think is dairy farmings biggest issue at the moment.

              I think from a political point of view we need to continue to generate/protect export receipts from dairy farming and we need to deal with the problems dairy farms are causing to our environment. herd homes seem to achieve both…but concede that it is not as user friendly as putting cows in paddocks.

              I guess what I am trying to say is people need to look at this closely before commenting because Herd homes do deal with some of our bigger problems.

              By rejecting dairy farming altogether, well we will end up with a whole set of other issues then
              .

      • AsleepWhileWalking 1.1.2
        19 October 2013 at 11:22 am

        Being allowed to permanently keep cattle inside is likely to intensify farming even more. If they can’t handle the level of effluent right now how on earth could they deal with this? It is purely profit driven and quite sickening to think of the ripple effects on the environment.

        One point not mentioned is the quality of meat this type of farming will produce. I don’t know much about it but I wonder if it automatically means greater use of antibiotics etc on the cattle??

        Will be looking to any comments the Greenz make before I make my submission.

        • Chooky 1.1.2.1
          19 October 2013 at 1:23 pm

          +1 …it is cruel to keep cows in sheds!!!!!…they should be able to roam free ….but the waterways must be protected ….only farm cows in environmentally safe ways and in environmentally sustainable areas…….ie …safeguard the rivers and aquifers

          ….look to diversify types of farming in other areas eg vegetarian /vegan crops and trees

          • risildowgtn 1.1.2.1.1
            19 October 2013 at 2:11 pm

            Totally agree
            I have 200+ chooks and theyre free to roam in and out their pens

            i find animals kept inside cruel and it shouldnt be allowed

            • phillip ure 1.1.2.1.1.1
              19 October 2013 at 2:38 pm

              @ risildowgtn..

              ..and do you too macerate any young males..?..alive..?

              ..and do you consider that at all ‘cruel’..?

              ..and if not..why/how not..?

              phillip ure..

              • weka …
                19 October 2013 at 4:56 pm

                Macerate in what? I’ve not heard of people macerating young male chooks live, but certain people do once they’re dead. It’s called marinating then, and no it’s not cruel (the animal is dead already).

                Plants have feelings too btw. So do ecosystems. Monocropping soy to feed a world full of vegans would be an ecological crime as well as cruel.

                • phillip ure …
                  19 October 2013 at 5:32 pm

                  @ weka..

                  “..At hatcheries, where egg laying hens are bred, the male chicks are not ‘profitable’.

                  Their very short lives end almost as soon as they begin – when they are gassed –

                  – or ground up alive (called a macerator)..”

                  i am sure risildowgtn will be able to fill us in on all the gruesome details..

                  ..(sound effects and all..)

                  ..phillip ure..

                  • weka …
                    19 October 2013 at 6:01 pm

                    “Their very short lives end almost as soon as they begin – when they are gassed –

                    – or ground up alive (called a macerator)..”

                    Got a citation for that Phil? Not saying it doesn’t happen, but am concerned about your bias when it comes to food issues.

                    I agree that the young male issue is a problem for non-vegans. But it’s not insurmountable and doesn’t necessitate the world becoming vegan.

                    And as I’ve said a number of times now, veganism comes with it’s own set of cruelties. Are you willing to address those?

                    • phillip ure …
                      19 October 2013 at 6:12 pm

                      if you don’t like my evidence..weka..

                      ..let google be yr friend..eh..?

                      ..try googling ‘macerator’..eh..?

                      ..it is the machine young male chicks are fed into..still alive..

                      ..it grinds them into a paste..(while still alive..)

                      ..(and like so much of the realities of flesh/fat-farming..

                      ..it is kinda gruesome to watch..eh..?..)

                      ..and from the worst commercial hen hell-houses..and to the touchy-feely-‘cruelty-free’ organic farms..

                      ..they all macerate..

                      ..’sunny-side up?’…

                      ..’do you want some dead pig with that..?’..

                      ..phillip ure..

                    • McFlock …
                      19 October 2013 at 6:33 pm

                      It’s always struck me as being pretty quick way to go, really.

                    • weka …
                      19 October 2013 at 7:25 pm

                      Probably less cruel than the animals that get killed in the vegan crop fields, that get runover or sliced in the harvesting machinery.

        • Saarbo 1.1.2.2
          19 October 2013 at 2:08 pm

          “It is purely profit driven and quite sickening to think of the ripple effects on the environment.” Not quite, this will actually make our dairy farming more costly…but it has environmental benefits. Refer to my reply to Weka.

          “One point not mentioned is the quality of meat this type of farming will produce. I don’t know much about it but I wonder if it automatically means greater use of antibiotics etc on the cattle??”
          Meat farmers wont be doing this, only Dairy Farmers I understand.

          • Chooky 1.1.2.2.1
            19 October 2013 at 3:34 pm

            @ Saarbo….I think so….re huge use of antibiotics….at least in the USA….I have a friend who left NZ a big meat eater …but is now a vegetarian in the States because the meat is so “disgusting”….We don’t want to go there if we want to preserve our elite /organic marketing edge…it would completely ruin the marketing NZ Pure & Green image for NZ

            • David H 1.1.2.2.1.1
              19 October 2013 at 5:14 pm

              Yeah the Bloody Yanks would want the rest of the world to use that over processed muck that passes for food in the land of the Paranoid and Insane.

              • Colonial Viper …
                19 October 2013 at 8:16 pm

                The kind of “food” over there is half the reason that they are paranoid and insane. Processed corn, flavored with corn syrup. Yum.

                • greywarbler …
                  19 October 2013 at 8:42 pm

                  Actually a dietitian I read said that there are examples of the junk food over sugared etc can cause an overtired man to freak out and commit murder. She gave the example of long-distance truck driver deliberately driving into a building and killing members of the public. Particularly if he had been on uppers and downers.

      • bad12 1.1.3
        19 October 2013 at 11:35 am

        Saarbo, i havn’t delved into how well kept dairy herds can be (are) yet, but will with a spare hour or two have a wee Google of the question,

        I do not think that we should dismiss this form of farming out of hand, but, looking at how the chooks and pigs are treated by intensive indoor farming it’s easy to see why many have,

        From the point of view of effluent disposal, pasture management, and water use, with a view to having ‘clean’ rivers and streams there may be a point for the introduction of ‘barned herds’…

        • weka 1.1.3.1
          19 October 2013 at 11:58 am

          From the point of view of effluent disposal, pasture management, and water use, with a view to having ‘clean’ rivers and streams there may be a point for the introduction of ‘barned herds’ if we want to allow increasing industrialisation of nature for the point of monetary profit for the few and at the expense of the many

          fify

          There is no way to farm industrial dairy sustainably. You can shift cows into sheds, at the expense of animal welfare, but you just create another set of problems because the whole endeavour is inherently about resource extraction not resource cycling. If having let them become so degraded NZ now wants to protect its waterways by fucking with some other part of nature, then we lose any remaining credibility we had with regards to sustainability and we deserve everything we get. People of ecological conscience need to think hard before buying into the sop being offered that is in essence factory farming cows.

          Or to put it another way, there was an old lady who swallowed a fly… (get it?)

          Please remember this has nothing whatsoever to do with feeding Kiwis. It’s purely (100% purely) about the greed of the few.

          • Draco T Bastard 1.1.3.1.1
            19 October 2013 at 1:30 pm

            Please remember this has nothing whatsoever to do with feeding Kiwis. It’s purely (100% purely) about the greed of the few.

            QFT

            We need sustainability and that means all farms going to full organic.

            • Saarbo 1.1.3.1.1.1
              19 October 2013 at 2:12 pm

              Organic is great, but there would be a drop in production and export receipts, I think a good government needs to grow exports, any ideas DTB?

              • Draco T Bastard …
                19 October 2013 at 2:35 pm

                I think a good government needs to grow exports

                Why?

                • Colonial Viper …
                  19 October 2013 at 2:38 pm

                  To obtain foreign currency to buy foreign goods and services with.

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    19 October 2013 at 3:29 pm

                    We can do all that here with our own resources, i.e, it’s better for the government to develop our economy rather than just doing more of the same thing.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      19 October 2013 at 3:33 pm

                      Sure. But that’s a twenty year transition programme of import substitution. What do we do in the meantime?

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      19 October 2013 at 4:36 pm

                      Continue to trade but the goal should always be to minimise that trade rather than to maximize it.

              • weka …
                19 October 2013 at 2:58 pm

                “Organic is great, but there would be a drop in production and export receipts, I think a good government needs to grow exports, any ideas DTB?”

                Yeah, I don’t know why we need to grow exports, esp in a peak-resources, AGW world (it’s crazy to be basing our economy and food production around that). However for the sake of argument, NZ could have been world leaders in export organic meat and dairy by now, and reaping the premium attached to that. The improvement in landcare would have boosted our clean, green NZ image for tourism marketing purposes too, not just in PR terms but in actual terms when people come here and experience the place for themselves. We wouldn’t be wasting huge amounts of rate payer funds in the regional councils trying to fix a problem that is now basically going to be very expensive (politically and financially) to fix. The cost of being able to swim in our rivers: priceless.

                I’ve not seen an audit of this, but I also suspect where organic production means a drop in output, this is offset by the reduction in pollution remediation costs associated with industrial dairying. A ‘good’ government would be ensuring that farmers are able to make a living without that being at the expense of the environment and other people. They would also adopt an accounting model that measures the negative effects of farming and where that costs us at all levels.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  19 October 2013 at 3:30 pm

                  +111

                • Ron …
                  19 October 2013 at 5:13 pm

                  It puzzles me. If we move our cattle into barns are they suddenly going to shit less. If not then we will have roughly the same effluent to deal with as in pasture and I cannot see any farmer doing more than high pressure sluicing the stuff somewhere away from the barns. Is it still not going to end up on land somewhere ready to make its way to waterways?
                  Also what on earth will the cows be feed with. Will the farmer still be growing grass and processing it to feed for the cattle? If so then they will still over fertilize their land and the nitrates will still run off to waterworks.
                  I cannot see any solution here.

                  • Saarbo …
                    19 October 2013 at 10:10 pm

                    Ron, the effluent drops through the grating in the floor of the HH, there is no high pressure hosing, so very little water is used. The effluent is emptied twice a year and is spread on the farm as an alternative to synthetic fertilisers. Obviously this can be managed/optimised to reduce any run off into water ways.

                    The grass is harvested off the farm and fed to the cows in the HH.

            • Chooky 1.1.3.1.1.2
              19 October 2013 at 4:58 pm

              …at least free-range is half way there to organic…..and providing the environment /waterways are not degraded is a good start

              ….+100 about being able to swim in our rivers is priceless!….and the tourists appreciate it, as well as the fish and birds

        • Chooky 1.1.3.2
          19 October 2013 at 10:43 pm

          …barned dairy and beef herds will create more vegetarians/vegans for sure…as many Europeans and Americans are already becoming semi-vegetarian and housed factory produced animals disgusts them……and bang goes your market….and bang goes NZ’s image as a Green producer of high quality free-range meat and dairy

          …there is no need for factory ‘farmed’ barned animals in NZ except greed…and it will probably make environmental issues worse eg far greater numbers ‘farmed’ ( every man and his dog will want to get in on it) and far greater potential effluent in waterways and contamination and depletion of rivers…I have met French and Italians who don’t like farm-barned animals…whole farm regions go smelly

          ….and do we want the animal antibiotic issues they have in the USA?

      • QoT 1.1.4
        19 October 2013 at 12:27 pm

        The other side of this unfortunately is effluent running into our waterways.

        Because cows are magical and can walk through fences.

        • Saarbo 1.1.4.1
          19 October 2013 at 2:13 pm

          Cows cant but rain can.

          • Colonial Viper 1.1.4.1.1
            19 October 2013 at 2:41 pm

            Of course non point discharge is a problem, but a manageable one depending on soil properties, farm infrastructure, the location of waterways around the paddocks, and the nature of the catchment involved.

    • Bill 1.2
      19 October 2013 at 11:30 am

      I thought cows in their ‘natural’ state were forest dwelling animals. Quite like the idea of fields being replanted to some degree to offer a more natural environment incorporating shelter and a wider source of food for the animals and more diverse ‘crops’ for human use.

      Saturday daydreaming…

      • grumpy 1.2.1
        19 October 2013 at 11:45 am

        Down here those bastard diary factory operators (laughingly called “farmers”) are still inducing cows. I thought it was illegal?

      • marty mars 1.2.2
        19 October 2013 at 12:16 pm

        + 1 Good point Bill – yes the cows should have shelter and trees are the solution. It’s better for everyone.

        • Colonial Viper 1.2.2.1
          19 October 2013 at 2:50 pm

          Trees??? No don’t think so. How many trees do you want to effectively shelter a herd of 400 cows?

          Cows need shelter from extreme weather. Trees aren’t going to cut it against snow drifts or violent storms.

          • weka 1.2.2.1.1
            19 October 2013 at 3:14 pm

            Depends on the trees and forest doesn’t it? And the breed of cow. We keep stock outside in winter pretty much everywhere. The issue about bad weather for the industrial model is that cows need to eat more (ie less profit). If you see the trees as productive beyond their use as shelter then that is less of an issue (eg timber, nuts, forage, coppicing, carbon sinking etc). We need to start thinking holistically.

          • marty mars 1.2.2.1.2
            19 October 2013 at 4:32 pm

            Yes trees and lots of them – they are the answer imo to just about everything and planting them is one of the best actions we can take for this world.

    • RedBaronCV 1.3
      19 October 2013 at 11:48 am

      Wow, right up there with sow crates and battery hen farming.T here’s major health issues and it will ruin the industry. I’m with Hans all the way. Still sell ourselves as clean and green nah.

      What will reduce the amount of effluent in the water is lower stocking rates so the available cow shit is spread over more land. Farming cows in suitable climates also helps. Putting them in barns is needed when the weather is harsh (snowing) and this is about the only time they should be in shelter.

      Try driving around parts of this country in the summer with the car window down, from Dundein to Christchurch all you can smell is cow shit.

      • weka 1.3.1
        19 October 2013 at 12:10 pm

        Reducing stocking rates would be a good start, but the problem isn’t just the water. It’s what big heavy hoofed animals do to soil too. This is why Southland farmers overwinter their stock in Central – the land just gets too boggy. Even if you manage the shit problem, I just don’t think there is any way to sustainably farm dairy industrially. I know of smaller scale organic dairy farms that use different practices, and we could probably get by for a long time with those supplying milk etc for NZ. But extraction farming for export, there’s just no way to do that with dairy and not make a big fucking mess.

        • Saarbo 1.3.1.1
          19 October 2013 at 2:22 pm

          Yes, but are you suggesting that all farms go organic Weka? Because that will create other issues, like a huge drop in government revenue and all of the downstream problems…

          I do agree that reducing stock rates is another solution, already happening near large waterways I understand (Taupo, Waikato River I think)

          • Colonial Viper 1.3.1.1.1
            19 October 2013 at 2:25 pm

            Capping stocking rates, better fence and riparian strip maintenance, improved herd and paddock management, will all help the environment significantly.

            It’s not a hard ask. Lots of farmers are doing it already.

            • weka 1.3.1.1.1.1
              19 October 2013 at 2:49 pm

              Yes, those are things that mainstream farming can do. Can’t do it under the industrial model though because it reduces profit.

              Saarbo, what is the huge drop in revenue for the govt you are talking about and what are the downstream effects?

            • Ron 1.3.1.1.1.2
              19 October 2013 at 5:17 pm

              But what about the poor farmer. Are you asking him to slightly reduce his income. Golly they will get so poor they will start voting Socialist

        • RedBaronCV 1.3.1.2
          19 October 2013 at 3:01 pm

          I don’t know that overwintering in Central is really solving any problem. The ground freezes up there in winter so if you spread cowshit around outside it probably isn’t going anywhere until the first rain washes it off hard ground into the nearest waterway.
          There is I believe already a problem with human waste and septic tanks doing just that in some communities. St Bathans?

          • weka 1.3.1.2.1
            19 October 2013 at 3:18 pm

            It’s already being done RB, in places where it works. It’s not like Central freezes over for months at a time 😉 I assume the stocking rates are much less too.

            But yeah, it’s not really viable in the long term.

            • RedBaronCV 1.3.1.2.1.1
              19 October 2013 at 7:05 pm

              I must visit at the wrong time Weka -it’s usually b freezing when I am there. At the back of my mind I’m assuming that this is a rerun of the intensive Mackenzie basin farming proposals. Even if the ground is only frozen for 6 weeks 18000 codes are going to produce a lot of shit. Perhaps us poor peasants will be able to dry and burn it as fuel

          • joe90 1.3.1.2.2
            19 October 2013 at 7:20 pm

            My understanding is that the pay off in housing herds is warmer animals eat less – a substantial reduction feed costs.

  2. phillip ure 2
    19 October 2013 at 7:54 am

    http://whoar.co.nz/2013/lack-of-exercise-and-fatty-diet-leave-six-out-of-10-pacific-adults-obese-comment-and-the-cultural-excuse-for-pacific-islander-obesity-is-a-load-of-horse-shit-and-why-are-pacific-isla/

    (excerpt:..)

    “….and don’t give me that ‘cultural’-bullshit/excuse for not being able to change/cry of helplessness..

    ..i grew up eating eating greasy bacon for breakfast..and ‘$1.50 pies’..

    ..and was fat and unhealthy as..

    ..i no longer do that..and am no longer that..

    ..the ‘cultural’-excuse is just laziness/a bullshit cop-out..”

    phillip ure..

    • QoT 2.1
      19 October 2013 at 12:29 pm

      Nice to know you’re able to extrapolate Undeniable Scientific Fact from a sample size of 1.

      • The Al1en 2.1.1
        19 October 2013 at 12:36 pm

        Like smack heads can’t format a readable blog post. What do I win? Whoar 😆

        • marty mars 2.1.1.1
          19 October 2013 at 12:59 pm

          Nasty comment the allen

          • The Al1en 2.1.1.1.1
            19 October 2013 at 1:05 pm

            Not really, especially as he makes no secret or excuses for either.
            Come on, don’t be so precious. Surely if we can be told to fu*k off back to our own countries without admonishment, we can handle a little of the above?

            • Tim 2.1.1.1.1.1
              19 October 2013 at 1:35 pm

              Yea … it was pretty nasty and judgemental!
              Complete and utter kaka and bullshit as well.
              I could begin with a brother’s IQ …. I could then go on to ask why a certain former head of the drug squad (a Rangi Rangihika) used to wonder why those addicted that he encountered/busted were extremely intelligent – completely to his wonderment, and what he should do about it. (In the days before we had the Police’s worst enemy – Greg O’Connor)
              Don’t get me wrong tho’ te Allen – I’m not a supporter of smack heads’ actions – just not as ready to pretend to myself how so much better I am than they are. There’s an obviously highly intelligent Ure that could probably shit on me any day – and I suspect definitely shit on you.

              Oh… btw – there are also rent-a-quote CantyUni Criminologists and others the MSM seem totally in lerv with who could probably give you an education on it all – rather than the schooling you’ve obviously so far received.

              • The Al1en …
                19 October 2013 at 1:41 pm

                Your over reaction is as funny as your loyalty admirable.

                If you’re really that bothered I’ll retract, as ‘extrapolating an undeniable scientific fact from a sample size of 1’ seems to offend so much when I do it 😉

          • joe90 2.1.1.1.2
            19 October 2013 at 1:26 pm

            If it quacks like a $30k tory….

        • phillip ure 2.1.1.2
          19 October 2013 at 2:47 pm

          @ allen..i can count the time since i last used smack – in decades..eh..?

          ..and it’s a bit of a stretch to blame what you see as my formatting-issues..

          ..on heroin..eh..?

          ..doesn’t it already get enough bad-press..?

          ..that heroin..?

          ..we don’t need to make stuff up about it..eh..?

          ..an ad-campaign..?

          ..warning the youth of the nation that if they use heroin..

          ..their formatting-skills will go up the wazoo..?

          ..that’ll scare them off..eh..?

          ..phillip ure..

          • The Al1en 2.1.1.2.1
            19 October 2013 at 5:08 pm

            You miss the point. It’s not that you were a junkie, nor the fact your writing style rips eyes from skulls, but the oversimplified, dismissive tone of your boast.

            Live by crass generalisations, then die by crass generalisations. It’s not nice is it?
            Lucky for you, you had a couple of guys backing up your claim because they didn’t want your feelings hurt, though their silence on your borderline racist tone is a bit deafening.

            But no hard feelings, we’re all good. 😉

            • phillip ure 2.1.1.2.1.1
              19 October 2013 at 5:45 pm

              “.. borderline racist tone..”

              ..never saw you as one so p/c/ there..allen..

              ..obese/unhealthy-eating islanders and maori often use/play the cultural card/excuse..

              ..pakeha in the same basket don’t have that excuse..

              ..and are just lazy/ignorant/market-brainwashed..

              ..the subject under discussion/i was bringing up..

              …was the cultural-excuse being used as a reason not to change/eat healthy..

              ..i repeat..that ‘excuse’ is total utter bullshit…

              ..and if you think it is ‘racist’ to point that out..?

              ..meh..!..eh..?..

              ..the fact is..that like me..most people who now eat healthy..

              ..once gorged on/enjoyed that same flesh/fat crap you still do..

              ..eh..?..

              ..everyone is capable of change..

              ..and that mewling/’it’s cultural’-reason/excuse..?

              ..again..meh..!

              ..phillip ure..

              • The Al1en …
                19 October 2013 at 6:04 pm

                I’m no more ‘pc’ than you are a friend of convivial writing, but that’s all way beside the point.

                But whilst we’re at it, so to speak, what’s with signing each and every post about?
                You know your handle is appears above your comments, right?
                Is it ego that you need to see your name twice, or is you think we’re all too dumb we need telling twice? 😆

                • phillip ure …
                  19 October 2013 at 6:24 pm

                  ouch..!..that hurts…i try really hard to make my writing ‘convivial’..eh..?

                  ..it is a quality i strive for..

                  ..i often fail..

                  ..but i do try..

                  ..eh..?

                  ..(probably ‘ego’..eh..?..)

                  ..and what’s with that moniker you lurk behind..?

                  ..’the allen’..?

                  ..are you named after ‘Database of gene expression patterns in the mouse brain..’..?

                  ..just wondering..

                  ..phillip ure

                  • The Al1en …
                    19 October 2013 at 6:37 pm

                    Lurk, hardly 😆

                    The Al1en is a character from a short story I wrote. He’s the first and most famous of all the Humanoid logic machines.
                    Just seemed appropriate 😉

                    • phillip ure …
                      19 October 2013 at 9:09 pm

                      “..He’s the first and most famous of all the Humanoid logic machines…”

                      ..so..was it irony that drove you to choose that name/persona..?

                      ..phillip ure..

                    • The Al1en …
                      19 October 2013 at 10:34 pm

                      “..He’s the first and most famous of all the Humanoid logic machines…”

                      “.so..was it irony that drove you to choose that name/persona..?”

                      Yeah, that must be it, AL73364nz 😆

      • phillip ure 2.1.2
        19 October 2013 at 1:19 pm

        @ qot..

        ..here’s far more than ‘a sample size of one’..

        http://whoar.co.nz/?s=vegan+obesity

        phillip ure..

        • QoT 2.1.2.1
          19 October 2013 at 2:10 pm

          I’m deeply sorry, but I’m even less likely to read fatphobic bullshit when it comes wrapped in a preachy vegan package.

          • phillip ure 2.1.2.1.1
            19 October 2013 at 2:35 pm

            @ qot..

            ..it is actually links to facts/evidence that back the claims i made..

            ..no need to ‘vegan-preach’..the facts/evidence do all the talking needed..

            ..and really..all you need to do..

            ..is look around you..

            ..eh..?

            ..phillip ure..

            • weka 2.1.2.1.1.1
              19 October 2013 at 3:24 pm

              “..it is actually links to facts/evidence that back the claims i made..”

              No, it doesn’t. I’ve searched your blog before for back up to the claims you make, and they’re just not there. The onus is on you mate, to provide the back up here on ts. Or at least link to a single blogpost that backs up your claims so we know which ones you consider to be useful.

              • phillip ure …
                19 October 2013 at 5:51 pm

                @ weka..not my job to hold yr hand weka..

                ..if you don’t want to know..

                ..you don’t want to know..

                ..and no..i will not jump thru hoops for you..

                ..how about you try and find a skerrick of evidence that gorging on animal-fat/flesh is good for you..eh..?

                ..shouldn’t take you long..

                ..to find nothing..

                ..eh..?

                ..(and as for evidence of the benefits from going vegan..?

                ..seen bill clinton lately/since he went vegan..?..)

                ..phillip ure..

            • QoT 2.1.2.1.1.2
              19 October 2013 at 4:19 pm

              Ah, the good old “just look around you” argument, because humans aren’t at all susceptible to seeing what they want to/are told to.

    • weka 2.2
      19 October 2013 at 3:45 pm

      “..i grew up eating eating greasy bacon for breakfast..and ‘$1.50 pies’..

      ..and was fat and unhealthy as..”

      Pity you don’t understand the underlying mechanism though.

      Fat is an essential nutrient for humans. Without it our brains and hormones don’t work properly. I had a look at the rationale you present, which is this article in the Herald.

      (and btw, “the MoH says so” isn’t evidence that backs up your views).

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11142610

      Lack of exercise, $1.50 pies, an abundance of fried chicken and traditional Polynesian food served with lashings of coconut cream have resulted in an obesity rate in Pacific adults of more than 60 per cent.

      However…

      Tokelau is a group of three atolls located in the South Pacific Ocean with approximately 1400 inhabitants. Administratively it belongs to New Zealand.

      From a dietary point of view the case of Tokelau is very interesting: we can observe what happens when a population transitions from their traditional diet to a more westernized one, and back.

      When Captain Wilkes visited Tokelau with his scientists, they reported that the people living there were very healthy, and to their surprise most of their diet was composed of coconut and fish, and some breadfruit (a starchy melon). There were no signs of plant cultivation.

      In the 1920s, their diet was:

      70% from coconut. So, more than 50% of this diet was fat.
      90% of this fat, was saturated fat.

      Health problems at that time:

      skin diseases
      asthma
      infectious diseases (chicken pox, measles, leprosy). No chronic diseases were recorded (trained physicians had been available since 1917).

      http://ilonadesign.blogspot.co.nz/2012/07/tokelau.html

      My emphasis.

      The article goes on to look at what happened to the Tokelauan population when half of it immigrated to NZ and adopted a Western diet. Upshot is a massively huge increase in diabetes, heart disease etc. Biggest change in diet? Less fat and increase in refined carbohydrates. The original research on this was the Tokelau Island Migration Study. You can google it for more detail.

      This pattern is demonstrated again and again all over the world. Take people away from their traditional diets, even high fat ones, and feed them white flour and white sugar, and watch diabetes and heart disease arrive (looks like cancer and possibly Alzheimers too).

      The “traditional Polynesion food is the problem” line being run by the MoH and the Herald is the same colonisation shit that’s been going on for the past few hundred years in the Pacific. It’s not the traditional food that’s the problem, it’s the whitey food (actually it’s more complex than that, because issues of poverty and access come into it too, as well as cultural colonisation).

      • Colonial Viper 2.2.1
        19 October 2013 at 3:51 pm

        You got it. Refined flour and sugar. Most people will do themselves a world of good simply by cutting those items back by 30%. Of course, cheap lower quality food is full of this stuff.

      • QoT 2.2.2
        19 October 2013 at 4:22 pm

        (actually it’s more complex than that, because issues of poverty and access come into it too, as well as cultural colonisation).

        Boom, headshot!

        • The Al1en 2.2.2.1
          19 October 2013 at 4:59 pm

          “(actually it’s more complex than that, because issues of poverty and access come into it too, as well as cultural colonisation).”

          “Boom, headshot!”

          Good shooting, comrades.

          • phillip ure 2.2.2.1.1
            19 October 2013 at 5:55 pm

            of course poverty/access/cost is also a factor..

            ..that’s why unhealthy food needs to have prohibitive taxes..

            ..and healthy food no taxes..

            ..that must be part of any solution…

            ..to our million strong obese fellow-citizens..

            ..phillip ure..

            • QoT 2.2.2.1.1.1
              19 October 2013 at 6:30 pm

              Always nice to see the food police jump instantly to a (seriously complex and difficult-to-implement) taxation solution for food. Because food preparation doesn’t require time or knowledge, if we make tofu $1/kilogram everyone will magically be able to feed their families a low-carb low-fat lean-protein micronutrient-balanced stirfry.

      • phillip ure 2.2.3
        19 October 2013 at 8:33 pm

        @weka..don’t really get yr point there weka..

        ..so..jumping from a crap polynesian diet to a crap western diet is jumping from frying pan into fire..?

        ..you’ll get no argument here on that fact..

        ..but yr point is..?

        ..phillip ure..

        • weka 2.2.3.1
          19 October 2013 at 10:44 pm

          You missed the point. Diet A = good health outcomes, diet B = marked increase in disease. In what way is diet A a ‘crap’ diet?

  3. karol 3
    19 October 2013 at 8:21 am

    I can’t get the Mapp-Kelsey debate post to load – times out.

    • lprent 3.1
      19 October 2013 at 8:26 am

      I have just been upgrading it as I did it in a bit of a rush yesterday. But I’ve finished now. Try it again.

      If it is still an issue then is it a 500 error, or does it just sit?

      Lightened the featured image. Removed surplus junk from the embedding.

      • karol 3.1.1
        19 October 2013 at 8:29 am

        Ah. Thanks. Loads now. It was just sitting and partially loading. I just wanted to read the latest comments.

  4. bad12 4
    19 October 2013 at 8:49 am

    Sooo, John Banks the eloquent little botox queen is said to have approached a supporter of Penny Bright at the Auckland District Court intoning in a voice only they could here that the woman was a ‘Bush Pig’,

    If that’s the way you want to play the game Herr Banks all well and good, i am off today to have a conversation with that bloke McCready to see what material help he needs, if any,(which i will gladly supply),

    It’s just come to my attention that Graham McCready is on the bones of His ‘proverbial’, dealing to Banks on the shoe-string of a benefit,

    i am sure if He needs it,transport to and from the airport down here can be arranged and flight costs covered,

    i was peeved when the case was moved to Auckland, but understand now the cost of moving the necessary witnesses down to Wellington would be an impossibility for Mr McCready, but, if Botox Banks(the already once convicted), wants to engage in a little post-courtroom debate i will be sorely tempted to drag myself up that way and deliver Him the same message he got at the point of His first conviction,(boy didn’t the Rat scurry in a hurry on that day)…

  5. Steve 5
    19 October 2013 at 8:49 am

    Granny’s business analyst shows “faux concern” for Auckland’s economic future as she contorts to stun us with her call for Len Brown’s resignation.

    I just didn’t vote…..

    …..the fact is that even though I had owned the same apartment in the Auckland CBD for more than a decade, the voting papers hadn’t turned up.

    And in spite of good intentions, I didn’t get around to sorting it out before the election closed.

    But frankly, I don’t believe Brown is doing anything near enough to ensure this city’s economic growth steps up.

    Yes, Fran’s just so concerned about the future of the city she lives in. In spit of that, she just couldn’t be bothered to pick up the phone and exercise her democratic right to chose the Mayor, Councillors and members of the community and district health boards for the next three years.

    I wouldn’t want to rely on her assistance if she was “concerned” about me!

    • bad12 5.1
      19 October 2013 at 9:45 am

      Doesn’t Fran O’Sullivan’s latest piece of Jonolism give off a distinct reek of insanity, in all Her lazy rotundness O’Sullivan couldn’t be bothered to vote until that is She learned of what goes on in Len Brown’s bedroom, what a pathetic waste of space,

      Can Fran please tell all, i want to know what goes on in Her bedroom befor i decide to read her abysmal column in the morning,

      On second thoughts, cancel that, the thought of getting a glimpse into the goings on in Fran’s bedroom first fills me with horror and secondly gives me the urge to barf…

  6. Philgwellington Wellington 6
    19 October 2013 at 9:28 am

    Xxx
    Thanks for the link to Fran’s confession. Small wonder why folks south of Auckland, couldn’t care less about all of this media circus. It reflects poorly on
    Orkland, Super City, Rodney Hyde, National government, and the huge imbalance of power that now Auckland represents. Most Kiwis don’t live in Auckland and resent Auckland centric ‘culture’ and media. Don’t vote, it only encourages them. Seems to be the Auckland way.

    • tc 6.1
      19 October 2013 at 10:05 am

      The fix is regional development as the only regional activity doing ‘well’ is dairying and thats screwing up our waterways, land profiles etc.

      cities will always have a certain attraction be it work, family, facilities but akl is a bit if a basket case after the curtis,woods,banks legacy gives way to nacts engineered takover via supercity.

      oshillivan is a fool to admit not voting but thats not news really.

  7. ianmac 7
    19 October 2013 at 9:53 am

    Another case of irony in that Mr Wewege lost his position because of sexual relationship and Bevan Chuang.
    The Herald:
    “The Washington-based Diplomatic Courier magazine last month named Luigi Wewege as one of the top 99 foreign policy professionals under 33, because of his efforts to “foster intellectual dialogue and relationships between New Zealand youth and the world decision-makers of today and tomorrow”.

    But his profile was pulled from the international affairs website yesterday after the editors became concerned about his role in the Auckland mayoral sex scandal…………

    Managing editor Chrisella Herzog contacted the Herald to confirm the veracity of Facebook messages sent between Mr Wewege, a member of the John Palino campaign team, and Bevan Chuang, who publicly revealed a two-year affair with Auckland Mayor Len Brown.

    Messages the pair exchanged back up Ms Chuang’s claims of a casual sexual relationship and the pressure she felt to go public about her affair with Mr Brown.”………
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11142596

  8. Morrissey 8
    19 October 2013 at 11:17 am

    Come back Kim Hill, urgently!
    Saturday Morning, Radio NZ National, 19 October 2013

    Kim Hill’s Saturday morning show, along with Chris Laidlaw’s and occasionally Bryan Crump’s, is one of the few times that New Zealand audiences can hear top-quality conversations with interesting people about serious topics. So the many fans of Kim Hill’s show are always concerned when she is on leave, as she is now. Will the replacement be up to it? Will she maintain Kim Hill’s exceptionally high standards?

    Well, it turns out that Kim’s replacement today is one Susie Ferguson and, unfortunately, she is just not up to it.

    Susie Ferguson first came to Standardistas’ attention after she lazily and recklessly recycled official black propaganda against a political dissident….
    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-10062013/#comment-646597

    Shortly after that, she came to our attention again, this time by her obtuse and foolish questions to a movie distributor, who treated her with barely restrained contempt….
    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-25072013/#comment-667846
    (Aficionados of disruption strategies will note our friend McFlock‘s inept attempts to derail the discussion.)

    This morning, after 8 o’clock, she read out the lineup for the morning, including this gem of crazed political correctness: “After eleven, breast cancer and what it’s like for a man when their partner is diagnosed….”

    Then it’s on to business. Her first guest was Professor Martin Jacques, a British expert on China and author of When China Rules the World: The Rise of the Middle Kingdom and the End of the Western World.

    Remember, Suzy Ferguson is quite happy to parrot the most prejudicial and demeaning language cooked up by government spin-doctors to taunt political dissenters in the West. This morning, however, she appears to have changed her spots about human rights: her questions, even about business and economic matters, all come with an anti-Chinese Government slant. Eventually, her crass questioning gets under the skin of her guest….

    MARTIN JACQUES: The Chinese will not be lectured by the West. I have not heard you say ANYTHING that acknowledges the immense progress China has made since 1978.

    …..[Awkward hiatus]…..

    SUSIE FERGUSON: I’m asking you why you’re such a fan.

    A little later, the crass and insidious comments continue….

    MARTIN JACQUES: The internet has revolutionized Chinese knowledge.
    SUSIE FERGUSON: But in a limited wayyyyyy….

    […..A little later…..]

    SUSIE FERGUSON: As Chinese power increases, how do you think the West will react? [She seems unfazed by Dr. Jacques’ irritated silence and presses on] I mean, do you think the West will take it lying down?

    The “interview” winds down to an ignominious end, but Susie Ferguson’s mission is not over yet. She takes what I imagine she thinks is revenge by reading out a few telegrams….

    SUSIE FERGUSON: There are quite a few texts and e-mails. He’s provoked quite a bit of feedback has Dr. Jacques! Walter writes: “China executes more people than any other country. What they’ve done to Tibet is what they could do to us.” Neil writes: “We should be very cautious….”

    Appointing Susie Ferguson to Saturday mornings, even if it is just for a couple of weeks, amounts to gross failure in a time slot listeners have come to presume will be four hours of quality radio.

    Come back Kim Hill, urgently!

    • Lanthanide 8.1
      19 October 2013 at 12:04 pm

      Thanks for linking to those older threads, Morrissey, somehow I managed to completely miss the multiple examples of how non “word-perfect” your “transcripts” truly are.

      I now feel justified in reflexively scrolling past your comments.

      • Morrissey 8.1.1
        19 October 2013 at 12:49 pm

        I now feel justified in reflexively scrolling past your comments.

        When I first started putting up transcripts on this forum, you were full of praise for them, and you recognized that I did capture the essential quality of the discussions.

        Your disaffection with me came suddenly, and it had nothing to do with questions of accuracy. It came after I had the temerity to lampoon people who you supported. For instance, there was my transcription of an interview with the hapless Hekia Parata, back before she was Minister of Education….
        http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-30082011/#comment-369467

        For some reason you have failed to convince anyone on this forum of, you backed the hapless Ms. Parata and her deepwater drilling plans. You also objected to my transcript of a outlandish, bizarre television appearance by Air New Zealand CEO Rob Fyfe, when he assured New Zealanders that Tokyo was “perfectly safe” even while the Japanese government was on the brink of ordering the evacuation of the city….
        http://thestandard.org.nz/meltdown-at-fukushima/#comment-314634

        Your objections to my transcripts are ideological. You need to be honest.

        • Lanthanide 8.1.1.1
          19 October 2013 at 4:34 pm

          🙄

          • Morrissey 8.1.1.1.1
            19 October 2013 at 8:57 pm

            Oooooh, now that was hardly an intelligent rejoinder. Can we do a tad better than such a miserable effort, do we think?

            • Lanthanide 8.1.1.1.1.1
              19 October 2013 at 9:57 pm

              I didn’t bother replying because you start out with such an obvious diversion that I literally stopped reading.

              So I’ll reply up to the point I stopped reading:

              “When I first started putting up transcripts on this forum, you were full of praise for them,”

              Yes, because I *assumed* they were actual word-for-word, or very close, transcriptions. I’ve done several transcriptions of various things myself over time and I know how much effort goes into making them. So I was thankful that someone was transcribing snippets from National Radio, snippets that 95% of the time I don’t get a chance to hear, so was glad for them to be recorded.

              My praise lasted up until I actually heard an interview myself that you had “transcribed”, and I discovered just how loose your “transcriptions” were.

              “and you recognized that I did capture the essential quality of the discussions.”

              More flowery waffle on your part. I didn’t “recognise” that you “capture[d] the essential quality of the discussions”, I thought they were actual transcriptions, as I describe above.

              Skimming the rest of your woeful reply, I see you seem to think that my “dissatisfaction” is something to do with me supporting Hekia Parata: not at all, it is entirely to do with you not actually transcribing segments with any semblance to reality while claiming that you did.

              But hey, if you want to keep up this little fiction in your head, go right ahead. I think both of our reputations on this blog won’t disabuse any 3rd parties as to the real truth of this situation.

              • Morrissey …
                20 October 2013 at 9:32 am

                I didn’t bother replying because you start out with such an obvious diversion that I literally stopped reading.

                “Literally” stopped reading, did you? You know, embellishing a lie in such a childish manner doesn’t change the fact it’s a lie. “Literally”. As they’d respond on the Panel: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

                ….because I *assumed* they were actual word-for-word, or very close, transcriptions.

                They were accurate, and they continue to be accurate, and you know it.

                Skimming the rest of your woeful reply, I see you seem to think that my “dissatisfaction” is something to do with me supporting Hekia Parata: not at all, it is entirely to do with you not actually transcribing segments with any semblance to reality while claiming that you did.

                You are, to put it politely, disingenuous. You were outraged that my transcript had shown up Parata in all her bumbling incoherence and vacuity. The highlight of that grim interview was when she claimed that the National government’s oil drilling “policy” had “a variety of various variables”. You actually support the moronic policies she was so ineptly espousing that day, and even more moronic ones than that, as shown by your defiant insistence that the Fukushima catastrophe was being over-hyped by greenies.

                But hey, if you want to keep up this little fiction in your head, go right ahead. I think both of our reputations on this blog won’t disabuse any 3rd parties as to the real truth of this situation.

                I am more than happy for people to compare our respective credibility, or lack of it. My transcripts ARE reliable—-I couldn’t dream up characters who exhibit the cruelty, moral turpitude, vanity, pomposity or stupidity of people like Chris Trotter, Stephen Franks, Garth McVicar or any of the other people who I pin down for posterity.

                You would be quite justified if you had pointed out that I make minor errors now and again, but you have unwisely chosen to exaggerate, demean and distort what I do. I am not a liar, I did not make up Hekia Parata’s hopelessness, or Rob Fyfe’s surreal brand of idiocy. You for some bizarre reason support those fools. Don’t try to pretend that your attempts to undermine me are anything more than ideologically motivated spite.

                • Te Reo Putake …
                  20 October 2013 at 9:45 am

                  I’m still waiting for that apology, you lying sack ‘o’ shit.

                  • Morrissey …
                    20 October 2013 at 9:52 am

                    I’m still waiting for that apology,

                    I apologize for implying that you supported Trotter’s endorsement of southern lynch law. I knew you were better than that.

                    ….you lying sack ‘o’ shit.

                    Oh come on now, I think we can operate in a less juvenile fashion, surely?

    • richard 8.2
      19 October 2013 at 12:05 pm

      She was right to quiz Jacques on China’s human rights record.

      In our rush to exploit the Chinese people for our own benefits, we are too quick to overlook at the actions of the governing regime that facilitates this exploitation.

      To quote from a Guardian review of Jacque’s book:

      Western states frequently do not meet their own standards any more than China does. But I agree with Rousseau, Kant and Paine that all human beings have a sense of self and are thus worthy of equal respect as individuals, as I agree with Aristotle and Plato about the importance of due desert underpinning justice. There is a universal hunger for these values which does not stop at China’s borders because of some mystical adherence to Asian values. We all want to live lives we have reason to value – whether we are Chinese or British.

      http://www.theguardian.com/books/2009/jun/21/when-china-ruled-the-world-jacques

      • Morrissey 8.2.1
        19 October 2013 at 12:54 pm

        She was right to quiz Jacques on China’s human rights record.

        Of course she was. And she was wrong to parrot the U.S. Government’s demeaning language used to attack dissenters in the West.

        Professor Jacques reminded her that China has greatly increased its standard of living, but she petulantly refused to even acknowledge that.

        • millsy 8.2.1.1
          19 October 2013 at 12:59 pm

          “Professor Jacques reminded her that China has greatly increased its standard of living, but she petulantly refused to even acknowledge that.”

          Perhaps you should ask the millions of homeless Chinese if their living standards were greatly inrcreased.

          • Morrissey 8.2.1.1.1
            19 October 2013 at 1:01 pm

            Perhaps you should ask the millions of homeless Chinese if their living standards were greatly inrcreased.

            I’m not defending the Chinese government. I leave that to outfits like NewstalkZB.

      • joe90 8.2.2
        19 October 2013 at 1:13 pm

        She was right to quiz Jacques on China’s human rights record.

        Indeed.

        The country with the second highest absolute numbers of enslaved is China, with an estimated 2,800,000 to 3,100,000 in modern slavery. The China country study5 suggests that this includes the forced labour of men, women and children in many parts of the economy, including domestic servitude and forced begging, the sexual exploitation of women and children, and forced marriage.

        Global Slavery Index 2013 (PDF)

        http://www.walkfree.org/

    • millsy 8.3
      19 October 2013 at 12:49 pm

      We should all be wary of the Chinese and its toxic mix of Stalinist communisim and neo-liberal capitalism.

      Chinese do not have trade unions, environmental regulations, labour laws or social safety nets, and its massive slave workforce keeps wages down all over the world.

      As I said before on this site. It is not Reagan or Thatcher that western boardrooms should be thanking. It is Deng Xiaopeng.

      • Morrissey 8.3.1
        19 October 2013 at 12:59 pm

        We should all be wary of the Chinese and its toxic mix of Stalinist communisim and neo-liberal capitalism.

        You are correct, millsy. We also need to understand why the Chinese have nothing but contempt for people like Margaret Thatcher, Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, who presume to lecture them about human rights.

      • Colonial Viper 8.3.2
        19 October 2013 at 1:01 pm

        China is where the US was 90 years ago. It’s a work in progress.

        BTW what the Chinese are doing has very little to do with Stalinism or neoliberal capitalism, or any hybrid of the two.

      • chris73 8.3.3
        19 October 2013 at 1:02 pm

        I’d like the USA to remain as the dominant superpower but I’m not bothered if/when China take over as was shown with how they’ve handled Hong Kong they seem quite pragmatic

        • Colonial Viper 8.3.3.1
          19 October 2013 at 1:44 pm

          I’d like the USA to remain as the dominant superpower

          In a lot of ways this would be a good thing but we have seen now is the US is essentially captured as a state within a state which cannot even govern itself or look after its own people. It’s not good to see.

  10. Draco T Bastard 10
    19 October 2013 at 11:42 am

    Why are house prices so high?

    In reality, only the banks and those with many properties benefit from high house prices: high prices mean that people will have to take out larger mortgages for longer periods of time, which means more money in interest payments for the banks.

    Because the banks have a license to print money. If we want affordable housing we need to rescind that license.

    • Ugly Truth 10.1
      19 October 2013 at 1:25 pm

      So stop paying taxes, that is what the central banks use as security.

      • Draco T Bastard 10.1.1
        19 October 2013 at 1:34 pm

        It’s not that simple moron. We really do need to support our society, what we don’t need is a bunch of psychopathic banksters stealing all our work and wealth from us through charging interest.

        • Colonial Viper 10.1.1.1
          19 October 2013 at 1:46 pm

          Did UT just suggest that Government tax revenues get used by private banks as security (or collateral)?

          That’s just idiocy.

          • Draco T Bastard 10.1.1.1.1
            19 October 2013 at 1:52 pm

            Really? Where do you think the $1.6b to bail out SCF came from?

            • Colonial Viper 10.1.1.1.1.1
              19 October 2013 at 2:07 pm

              What definition of the word security/collateral are you using?

              I’m using the standard financial definition which is an asset that can be leveraged against in order to secure additional funding. The $1.6B used to bail out SCF does not fall into the category of being such an asset.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                19 October 2013 at 4:44 pm

                When the GFC started the government instituted the Retail Depositors Scheme. Now, the financial institutions that went into the scheme paid some amount to do so but there’s no way that they paid in enough to even cover the $1.6b used to cover the failure of SFC. The security used to raise the extra was the taxpayers of NZ.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  19 October 2013 at 4:55 pm

                  A government guarantee or backstop is a separate issue.

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    19 October 2013 at 9:36 pm

                    No it’s not. It’s exactly what was being discussed. The banks get to loan out as much money as they can until they collapse at which point the government will step in to bail them out.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      19 October 2013 at 9:46 pm

                      Ok this is not a productive discussion because you have decided to use the vaguest definitions of terms. SCF wasn’t a bank, for instance.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      19 October 2013 at 9:55 pm

                      The BNZ was.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      19 October 2013 at 10:04 pm

                      Irrelevant to the post GFC world.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      20 October 2013 at 12:30 pm

                      No, the problem is still the same. Due to the intertwined nature of the global financial system if one bank goes down it’s possible that it would take several others with it and they won’t necessarily be in the same country. The “losses” will be counted in the tens to to hundreds of billions if not more. That’s why the governments of the world stepped in when the banking system failed in 2007/8 and also why our government stepped in when the BNZ failed (sometime around the same time period the US government did the same for a failing bank in the US).

                      The governments are absolutely terrified of the private banks failing and thus the banks have an implicit government guarantee. A guarantee that is backed by the taxpayers.

          • Ugly Truth 10.1.1.1.2
            19 October 2013 at 2:56 pm

            Idiot, you do understand that there is difference between central banks and private banks, don’t you?

        • Ugly Truth 10.1.1.2
          19 October 2013 at 3:03 pm

          It really is that simple, fuckwit. Your needs are not relevant, the best way to support society is to stop bleeding it to death by fraud and usury.

          • Draco T Bastard 10.1.1.2.1
            19 October 2013 at 4:45 pm

            That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Taxes aren’t fraud or usury.

            • Not Another Sheep 10.1.1.2.1.1
              19 October 2013 at 10:33 pm

              Dare I say it taxes are a type of ‘fraud and usuary’ of governments. The worker pays taxes then also banks his/her savings and is actively encouraged by governments to do so eg. kiwisaver schemes. Governments/treasuries/ Reserve Banks actually have no money- it is a fiction, hence so are government guarantees ( e.g. bonds, Retail depositor schemes)

              Paper money, cheques, Eftpos, bonds, guarantees……They are all “currency”, a figment of imagination from the source onto the the end of the money trail – you; the taxpayer and the worker who re-circulates it.

              In terms of currency, accrual and flow (tax revenues included are used by private banks in the flow of currency- it isn’t idiocy CV), there is no difference between private banks or central banks and the massive ‘con-job’ between Governments and banks colluding to ‘bleed society to death’ ( UT).

              Also true words “a bunch of psychopathic banksters stealing all our work and wealth from us …” but not just in interest charges DTB- as a type of ‘fraud’ happens before we are paying bank fees, interest etc . It is our savings that are being used without consent and then we give the banks fees for the priviledge of having the workers money

              – “Never in human history have so many been plundered by so few..”

              Released recently part 3 of “Hidden Secrets of Money”
              The Biggest Scam In The History Of Mankind – Maloney.M. 2013

              Personally- not a big hidden secret but more likely a concept that has not been well understood by the ‘worker’. Found this video and its visuals a great way to illustrate the myth of there being money, with easy to understand terminology of money ‘mumbo-jumbo’.

              travellerev posted “Shade” the Motion Picture link recently too. Adds further dimensions to the discussions and understandings of who are the global “controllers”. Worth due time to watch.

              • Not Another Sheep …
                19 October 2013 at 10:45 pm

                Would also add that the “Authors” behind Hidden Secrets also appear to be ‘on the make’ so….. good luck with your money if you have any.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                20 October 2013 at 12:41 pm

                It’s not taxes that are the problem but the monetary system where the private banks get to create money ex nihilo and charge interest on it.

              • greywarbler …
                20 October 2013 at 12:44 pm

                Not Another Sheep

                Dare I say it taxes are a type of ‘fraud and usuary’ of governments.

                No you daren’t even when you spell right you would still be wrong despite all the gerfuffle that you put to back your statement up.

    • James Thrace 10.2
      19 October 2013 at 3:29 pm

      Don’t forget that all forms of finance are gst exempt.

  11. Clement Pinto 11
    19 October 2013 at 12:14 pm

    Yes, Mr Shearer’s input was very pleasant, funny and quite enjoyable! Comes across as a nice, witty and clever guy. Shows how being a leader was so onerous and restrictive to his usual persona.

    In the clip his input is right at the start of the programme in this episode which itself he began and then again at 7′ onwards when he was grilled and gave his winning responses.

    Have a watch and I think you will enjoy it.

    Cheers!

  12. Morrissey 12
    19 October 2013 at 12:29 pm

    Standard regular McFlock not too good at being civil
    Failure to be gracious makes for an unpleasant little exchange

    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-16102013/#comment-712089

    Chris (“Haw Haw”) Trotter is something of a left/liberal icon in this country, and a political north star for many Standardisti, who clearly set their own bearings by what he says and writes. Generally Trotter writes well and contributes valuable insights. However, like all of us, he is certainly not perfect. In 2007 he suffered a public dressing down from John Minto after he (Trotter) had made some ignorant comments backing the police raids in the Urewera country. Minto damned his comments as “shallow”, “pompous”, “weak” and “potentially damaging” to the victims of the raids….
    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0710/S00415.htm

    Since then, Trotter has got worse, not better. As a regular guest on Jim Mora’s Panel, he has slotted in seamlessly with that show’s glib and casually cruel zeitgeist; Trotter has been one of the more heartless taunters of political dissidents like Julian Assange and Edward Snowden….
    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-14062013/#comment-648511

    But such irresponsible, craven behaviour, such gross misjudgements and failures of empathy have done little to shake the faith of Trotter’s most dedicated followers. They stayed on board, even after he delivered a windy and pompous admonition of those who might dare to criticise the infamous jury verdict in the Trayvon Martin case.

    In shock and horror at what I heard, I provided a rush transcript of Trotter’s fustian lecture. Of course, not having a working tape recorder, and not being an expert in shorthand, I didn’t get it one hundred per cent correct. That’s all that the Trotteristi needed; they piled on with the ferocity of Red Guards going after a capitalist running dog, hammering on the fact that I hadn’t captured the great orator’s words perfectly…..
    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-25072013/#comment-668899

    Despite that, this writer (i.e., moi) is always willing to concede that his critics have a point, and in a spirit of reconciliation, I acknowledged that. One of my critics has been our friend McFlock, and after he took the trouble to actually provide a transcript of Trotter’s infamous words, I acknowledged his efforts….

    MORRISSEY: Thanks for transcribing that, McFlock. I can see that I missed a lot, and you have a valid point in disagreeing with my interpretation of Trotter’s comments. I did render his words a little more pointedly than they actually were. However, I think that even when you compare my admittedly imperfect rush “transcript” to your word-perfect transcript, I have captured the essential pomposity of his speaking style and the gist of his admonition to the lesser mortals in the studio to respect that outrageous verdict in Florida. Trotter was speaking slowly and sententiously, as if he was defending the Western system of justice; what he was actually doing was defending a grievous miscarriage of justice. His suggestion that there were “items of evidence which would raise reasonable doubt I think in most people’s minds” was not backed up at all, and disappointingly, Noelle McCarthy failed to demand he did so.

    You are right to time the silences; they’re not as long as I recalled them in my mind, but they are significant nonetheless. Noelle McCarthy was, I believe, genuinely lost for words after listening to that. So was I.

    The response, however, did not burnish our friend’s diplomatic credentials….

    McFLOCK: oh fuck off. So let’s say you “captured” trotter’s pompousness (personally, I think you overstated it). That means that you are (at best) a dadaesque caricaturist of discourse. So are all the claims as to near word perfect accuracy simply self-delusion, or are you trying to mimic Sacha baron Cohen’s immersion satire?
    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-16102013/#comment-712089

    Readers with an IQ above room temperature will note that McFlock attempts to derail and inflame the discussion by comparing my serious (and admittedly imperfect) criticism of a media commentator with the behaviour of a callous and brutally dishonest propagandist/comedian.

    But let’s save the discussion of provocative hate-comedians like Bernard Manning, Andrew Dice Clay and Sacha Baron Cohen for another day.

    • Lanthanide 12.1
      19 October 2013 at 12:32 pm

      Woah, way to take things personally, Morrissey.

    • McFlock 12.2
      19 October 2013 at 5:26 pm

      And another thing: your excuses about not having a tape recorder are pretty fucking stupid when you quite obviously have an internet connection, and all the natradio broadcasts are online.

      And I chose SBC because he is known for constantly staying in character, much in the same way that you stay in the character of stupid dickhead.

      • Morrissey 12.2.1
        19 October 2013 at 8:54 pm

        And another thing: your excuses about not having a tape recorder are pretty fucking stupid when you quite obviously have an internet connection, and all the natradio broadcasts are online.

        My transcripts—occasionally a little too slapdash and impressionistic for some tastes—-are done quickly and published very soon after the offending broadcast. I am more than happy for you or anyone else to provide a word-perfect transcript for people to compare and contrast with mine. As we saw with my rendition of Chris Trotter’s infamous defence of shonky Deep South juries, my version is usually pretty much spot on. Of course people can quibble about whether I described the timbre of his voice fairly, or whether I effectively evoked the horrified silence that fell over the people he was admonishing, but the determined effort by a few hardline Trotteristi was, and remains, an exercise in attempted political assassination. In a non-frightening, Standard sort of way, of course.

  13. chris73 13
    19 October 2013 at 1:12 pm

    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2013/10/award-winning-journalist-cant-tell-father-son/#axzz2hOR1GNO2

    – If you want proof positive of how bad journalism is in NZ you might like to check this exchange, David Fisher showing how its not done

  14. LynnW 14
    19 October 2013 at 1:31 pm

    Just want to have a rant about roads.

    The Auckland Mayoral debacle is a serious diversion away from really serious issues – one of which is the lack of investment in essential infrastructure in the South Island. On SH1, the main route from Picton to NZ’s second city, there’s an old rickety, single lane bridge over a major river. Up till fairly recently all traffic on SH1 had to cross an even more rickety old 2 tier bridge with the railway line on the top tier. the train still goes across it.

    When the mighty Waimakirirri River is in flood, the old wooden bridge at Kaiapoi has to be closed in case it gets washed away, leaving just the motorway bridge. Cyclists just have to wait until the river drops or they can get a lift across the motorway bridge.

    Matters are exacerbated when the Ashley River is in flood and the old bridge at Rangiora has to be closed for safety reasons which diverts all traffic north of the river onto SH1. When both rivers are in flood as happened last week – there are just two ways into ChCh by road from the north – the SH1 bridge and the old one lane gorge bridge 90kms upstream.

    And that’s aside from the implications to SH1 and the only railway line – of landslides or tsunami pretty much all the way from Blenheim to Cheviot.

    Sometimes it feels very isolated down here.

    • Chooky 14.1
      19 October 2013 at 3:20 pm

      …but it is a lovely isolation….and just love it when those rivers run wild and mighty.!!!….hate to see them tamed and depleted for irrigation

      ….and who cares about rickety bridges?…our colonial ancestors had to ford them with horses if they were lucky …or swim…or paddle.

  15. Draco T Bastard 15
    19 October 2013 at 1:45 pm

    This map shows where the world’s 30 million slaves live. There are 60,000 in the U.S.

    We think of slavery as a practice of the past, an image from Roman colonies or 18th-century American plantations, but the practice of enslaving human beings as property still exists. There are 29.8 million people living as slaves right now, according to a comprehensive new report issued by the Australia-based Walk Free Foundation.

    And, yes, NZ is represented as having slaves, approximately 500.

    • Lanthanide 15.1
      19 October 2013 at 4:42 pm

      Depends entirely on the definition of “slave”. I would suggest that America has many many more than 60,000. There’s a whole economy based on low-paid ($1-3 hour) prison inmates that produce massive amounts of products cheaply, including large amounts of military hardware such as uniforms and basic equipment. To the point that states trade prison inmates between themselves in order to fulfill government contracts…

    • weka 15.2
      19 October 2013 at 4:58 pm

      Who are the NZ slaves?

      • Draco T Bastard 15.2.1
        19 October 2013 at 9:40 pm

        Probably a combination of sex slaves and workers in slave like conditions (technically paid but the bills that the employer charges the employed are more than the pay) all of which will be foreign born. We here of some of these in the news every now and then but for some reason they’re not called what they are.

  16. Ugly Truth 16
    19 October 2013 at 2:41 pm

    The greatest deception here is this is not one nation under God, it never was

    Stenographer Dainne Reidy, before being forcibly removed from Congress.

  17. marsman 17
    19 October 2013 at 2:56 pm

    Judith Collins is going to speak to the China Executive Leadership Academy about government transparency and accountability. Is she aware of the irony of a Minister of a sly, secretive, unwilling to accept accountability ‘government’ talking about those subjects? A bit like Ruth Richardson and Roger Douglas talking to foreign governments about economic stewardship- what a fucking joke.

  19. Morrissey 19
    19 October 2013 at 3:44 pm

    DUTCH KING TELLS THE POOR: “BUILD YOUR OWN SAFETY NETS”

    No, this is not a Monty Python sketch. The King of the Netherlands, Willem-Alexander announced the end of the welfare state in a speech written by the government. But while the population of the Netherlands has faced some of the most severe austerity measures in Europe, the monarchy has cut nothing from the £31m it receives from the taxpayer each year – overtaking the Windsors as the most expensive monarchy in Europe…..

    http://www.scriptonitedaily.com/2013/10/18/31m-a-year-from-the-taxpayer-and-dutch-king-tells-the-poor-build-your-own-safety-nets/

  21. chris73 21
    19 October 2013 at 7:37 pm

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9304274/Tough-conditions-for-Kiwi-activists-in-Russia

    – Thats what happens when you mess with the big boys but inadvertently Lucy Lawless shows them what they should stick to in future

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/9304237/Lucy-Lawless-in-Greenpeace-Arctic-protest

  22. Rose 22
    19 October 2013 at 11:04 pm

    What has happened in Auckland in the last 3-4years? People on the street and on the beach are so defensive so as to scare other people away. People hog the footpath so I have to walk on the road. What happened to altruism, manners, thoughtfulness? I wonder if it’s like this in other Western countries.

    • Colonial Viper 22.1
      19 October 2013 at 11:52 pm

      What happened in Auckland was a National Govt took charge, the economy slowed more than needed, and a lot of people’s attitudes shifted to suit.

  23. tricldrown 23
    19 October 2013 at 11:36 pm

    NZ slaves are on Korean fishing boats thank to National delaying implementation of new rules preventing such conditions.
    Other slaves on farm labour are made to work huge hours 80 hrs plus only getting paid 40 to 45 hrs.
    National again don’t bother funding osh labour dept mobie
    Forestry workers made to work long unsafe hours killing workers!
    Religious fundamentalists such as thr exclusive bretheren who force marriages force labour again National implicated!